June 4, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the often overlooked power of Project, Program, and Operations Managers (PMs), the PMs who hold organizations together behind the scenes. As companies cut budgets, these critical roles are frequently the first to go. However, eliminating the very people who create clarity, enable execution, and manage complexity can have long-term consequences.
This episode defines the distinctions between PM roles and highlights the invisible, high-impact work they do, like change management, stakeholder alignment, and process improvement. It challenges the myth that PMs are just about checklists. Indra and Amanda also share how these roles are evolving, the communities shifting the conversation, and why investing in strong PMs is investing in your company’s ability to deliver.
Useful Links:
- Generalist World: https://www.generalist.world/
- Designops Assembly: https://www.linkedin.com/company/designops-assembly
- Levels of Program & Operations Management: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17C_0-ITv4Sh3baLtnILEgImAEftDnd1uUjHo4Hpycss/edit?usp=sharing
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters.
Hey, Amanda, how are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:19):
I'm good. How are you Indra?
Indra Klavins (00:20):
I'm god, I'm good. Once again, we're going to
be talking about something nearand dear to our hearts, the
craft that is the backbone toyours and my careers, project,
program, operations, management,all the things. Management, all
the things, all the all thethings, all the get stuff done.
Stuffers, yes, yes. And sobefore we dig in, not everyone
(00:43):
is as deeply entrenched in thiscommunity. They've definitely,
they've probably heard theterms. I don't want to say
definitely, but probably heardthe terms. But you know, there
is something that the people inthe craft, there's some nuance
that people within the craft mayunderstand, that people who are
not in the craft may not. So letme go through some definitions.
So for the purposes of ourconversation, and this is just a
(01:03):
broad working definition of it,project managers are people who
are responsible for planning andexecuting and delivering
individual projects within adefined scope, timeline and
budget. So you can imagine, Ineed to have a new checkout
workflow for my website, or Ineed to put on this particular
event for 20 people like they'rethey're not, they're usually not
(01:27):
overly complex. They're usuallypretty contained, and they have
a clear, clear set ofdeliverables that are going on
with them. So that's projectmanagers.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:37):
Yeah, a project has a beginning and an end has a
beginning and
Indra Klavins (01:41):
an end programs. So this is where people, a lot
of people, confuse the wordsproject and program managers,
which drives both of us a littlewacky. But a program manager
oversees a group of relatedprojects a program to ensure
that they align with broaderbusiness objectives. So you
could think about this as likeyou have an app that you're
(02:04):
creating, you might have oneteam doing that checkout
workflow, because you'd have ashopping component to it. You
have another team that's worriedabout making sure that the
videos get served properly, andthey're working on that, and
that's a different project. Andwe have a third team that's
worried about all the othervisual the navigation of the
applications. You have threeprojects, and the program
(02:26):
manager makes sure that allthose things are working well,
they're going to end at theright time, so that you can
launch your app on time. Sothat's a program, and that's one
example of a type of a program.Any other, anything else that I
can add to make sure that that'sclear for our
Amanda Jane Lee (02:42):
um, yeah, there, there's security and
compliance requirements, youknow, yes, that are, that are
not being worked on in any ofthese projects, but as an
overall like business goal, wehave to ensure this so a program
manager would be aware of thoserequirements and ensure that you
(03:03):
know all of those requirementsare met, so that we can launch
the thing. Yeah, that's the onlything I would add.
Indra Klavins (03:08):
I love that. So, yeah. So yeah, they're worried
about all the projects that aregoing on and anything else
that's necessary for that thingto be successful, whether it's
working with partners orwhatever it might be like. They
just, they have their eyes oneverything. They have their eyes
on the big picture. So program,big picture project, really set
scope and really set focus, andthat's for delivering things and
(03:30):
putting things out into theworld, right? Operations
managers are a third flavor,which is which have a very
similar skill set, right? Sooperations managers, and, you
know, there's various careerstages for each one of these,
but, like, let's just keep itpretty simple, but operations
managers ensure that the day today functions of a business or a
team runs smoothly. So this willbe making sure everyone's
(03:53):
laptops work. Make sure thateveryone that there's an all
hands that's going on. Make surethat the budget is being
balanced. Make sure that youknow just anything that needs to
that someone else isn't takingcare of that makes the
organization function, whetherit's a team or a company, gets
done, gets done like those arethe operations people. And so
(04:16):
for the purposes of our podcast,we're going to call this group
of folks, P and like so, justfor the scope of these 30
minutes ish, that you're withus, pm is project or program
manager or an ops person. JustJust know that we're going to
use that for them, because Godheaven knows that like that gets
that that word Pm is yet anotherone of those. What those terms
(04:39):
that needs to be clarified allthe time,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:42):
right? Because pm could also mean product
manager. It could also meanPortfolio Manager. It could mean
Prime Minister. It could mean,you know, private message. It
could, like so many
Indra Klavins (04:55):
things stand for, and like, it's so funny whenever
somebody's. Is, oh, the pm willtake care of that. I'm like,
Who,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:03):
What do you mean by pm? Like, Well,
Indra Klavins (05:05):
that'll be, that'll be, you know, like,
Jorge. I'm like, that's great,fantastic. Because I'm also a
PM, or This one's also a pm, Ijust wanted to make sure we knew
what was going on. And they'llstare at me like, I've got like,
six heads. I'm like, I wouldrather be clear what we mean,
but so that everyone knows youdon't need to stare at your
cells or each other with sixheads as you're listening to
(05:26):
this. PM, is project program oroperations manager for the for
the duration of this, thispodcast. And the last bonus term
that we're going to throw inthere for just because I'm sure
we're going to mention itsomewhere along the way, and
this is courtesy are friends atgeneralist world that we're
going to talk about, probably alittle bit too, but a
generalist. So a generalist is amulti skilled, adaptable, fast
(05:50):
learner who can jump into anyrole and make things happen. So
I think that most, most programmanagers, a lot of project
managers, most program managersand probably a lot of operations
managers, are generalists,right?
Amanda Jane Lee (06:08):
They're the get stuff done, or is, like you said
at the top of the episode,right? Like they get stuff done?
Indra Klavins (06:13):
Yeah. And you know, the reason that we're
talking about this topic now isnot because we're passionate
about the topic, which we are,but because we're seeing so many
organizations right now downsizetheir get stuff done, our teams
right all their PMS, the numberof tremendously talented, highly
(06:37):
qualified PMS that are out onthe market. Some of them
specialize in specific liketypes of projects. Some of them
don't like there. It doesn'tmatter, it's there. There's an
awful lot of them that are onthe market right now, and I it's
because of budgetaryconstraints, but I also believe
that the there, the these cuts,are exceptionally short sighted
(07:02):
these, yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:04):
agreed. I personally know so many program
manager type people who are onthe market right now, and I
agree that it's a short sightedmove for these companies to
eliminate these teams. Yeah,because
Indra Klavins (07:21):
the work doesn't disappear. No, but what's what's
happened is, like these folksare undervalued in general, but
what's what's happened is a fewdifferent things. One is that
the proliferation of SaaSSoftware as a Service, online
programs that that can handleproject management types of
(07:45):
things. I'm thinking of yourMonday dot coms. I'm thinking of
your Trello I'm thinking of yourasanas. Those tools, boom. Some
of those tools are great. Someof those tools drive me crazy,
but we're not. This podcast isnot about that. But what those
tools do? Amanda's laughing, forthose of you not watching the
video versions of Amanda'slaughing because she's heard my
(08:05):
rants about them. But the reasonthat those tools are really
good, but the marketingmaterials for those tools are
like, Oh, your teams can selforganize. Oh, your teams can
handle this by themselves. But,but what it overlooks is the
ability to yes, they theyhandled systematically things
(08:27):
really well. Yes, they sendprompts, yes they send alerts.
But that's checklist management.That's checklists and reminders.
And a good Pm is there's theirvalue is not in checklists. I
mean, yes, they will createchecklists make sure those
checklists are done. Everyoneagrees on what's on the
checklist, but their value isnot in that checklist. It's in
(08:51):
so many other things, yeah?
Amanda Jane Lee (08:53):
Just like, insert any other job title here.
Is a craft, yeah? ProgramManagement is a craft, yeah,
like there are, there are peoplelike you and I who this is our
craft. This is what we do. Thisis what we do. Well, this is
what we have experience in. And
Indra Klavins (09:13):
the tools help us do it better, but they do not
replace people who do this. AndI think that that's the thing
that a lot of these people whoare and I, and I've been that
person facing budgetaryconstraints, so I don't, I'm not
casting shade. This intent is toshare wisdom so that the next
time they can make a moreinformed choice. Because it's,
(09:38):
it's in the it's the managementand stuff like was, because if
you don't have a person who istasked with the get stuff done,
I mean, I think we gave a wholebunch of really good examples as
we were going through ourdefinitions, but you don't have
somebody watching for all thosethings, someone on your team
whose day job is softwareengineering, marketing
(09:59):
professional. All copywriting,designing, whatever it might be,
winds up having to do their dayjob and project management stuff
and not necessarily do it thatwell, because it's not a certain
thought their core competencyand b It's not what gets them in
flow. It's not the thing thatthat's not the reason they
(10:19):
joined your company to workthere. They're not. They're, in
all likelihood, there's a thereare some people who would enjoy
it, but in low likelihoodthey'll find it to be an
annoying thing that keeps itfrom, keeps them from being able
to do their day job, which theylove. Yeah, and
Amanda Jane Lee (10:34):
I would even add that someone who has to take
time and capacity away fromtheir day job to do project
management type things like thatis going to be a detriment to
themselves and to the team,because they're now splitting
time between their day job, thething that brings them joy, the
(10:54):
thing that you know they'rereally good at their craft,
yeah, and they have to now spendhowever many hours ensuring
that, you know, all the piecesare being orchestrated, all the
things are being done. You know,all the dots are being
connected, all of the glue workthat a lot of pm type people do
is happening 100% and
Indra Klavins (11:18):
then what happens then the cascading effects.
Let's follow this through. Whathappens then is a, we've already
talked about how they're they'refrustrated. B, we've talked
about how their team isfrustrated with them because
they can't deliver the way atthe capacity that they used to
be able to deliver. Let's saythey were able to. I'm going to
choose a. It's a terriblemetric, but it's a metric.
(11:38):
Nonetheless, they used to, everysingle cycle, they'd be able to
deliver 100 lines of code, andnow they're only able to deliver
50. And their teams like, whycan't you deliver 100 still,
like, what's wrong? Like, andthey get frustrated, and they
get resentful, and they startlashing out at the person. And
then, you know, comes aquarterly review, and you know,
the the person's boss is like,hey, you know, like, you didn't,
(12:02):
you only delivered 150 lines ofcode per cycle. And so, like,
you're not doing your job verywell. And they're like, but
there's all this other stuffthat needs to be done. And then
you can imagine the frustrationand the poor review of the
person, and the person leaves,and then, like, it's just and
then you lose that, into that,that that IP, and anyone who's
(12:23):
been on a hiring cycle knowsthat it's so much, it's it's so
much more important to retainyour good talent than it is to
go and hunt for talent, becausefinding a new person in your
best case scenario takes twomonths. So like the thing that
like, so these are thedownstream costs we've gotten
(12:44):
off topic. But the point is, ofgetting off topic is that fact
that this decision about cuttingcosts, but and getting rid of
your get stuff done or folks,has not only stopped you from
getting stuff done and slowedthe progress of your project?
You're now in a recruiting cyclebecause you got to start hiring
someone because they wound updoing a project manager. Doing a
project management job insteadof, like a software engineering
(13:05):
job, but cause they got and theygot frustrated and want to go
somewhere else where they couldactually do their
Amanda Jane Lee (13:10):
job. Yeah, it just creates this snowball
effect that I don't think a lotof people realize or talk about,
Indra Klavins (13:16):
no, and I think that there's like, and let's be
clear, and I think we should gointo this too, like, not all PMS
are created equal. In my livedexperience, it was like, Really,
you don't say, right? Yeah, inmy experience, there's, there's
two types, there's the checklistmanagers, and then there's the
(13:38):
get stuff done. Or it's like,and it's, it's more for me, when
I categorize people in my mindin these two different camps,
it's their intrinsic rewardsystem, right? There are the
people who want to make otherssucceed, and those, to me, are
the get stuff done. Ers,sometimes when they're really
early in their career, andthey're really early on in the
craft, they might be focusing onchecklists, but their goal,
(14:01):
their motivation, is in the getstuff done. And then there's the
people who are happy as clam,creating checklists, marking
things red, amber and green, youknow, red, yellow, green as a
status of of the health of theparticular project or the
particular item, sending outfollow up emails and creating
status reports. Those, to me,are the checklist, PMS. There's
(14:21):
checklist PMS, and get subbed onPMS, right? And the checklist
PMS are, you know, the rewardis, Am I done with this project?
Has this project like, has itbeen shipped? Done? Cool. Gonna
move on to my, my next thing?They're either yes, their,
their, their intrinsic reward isliterally in marking off that
checkbox. Like, you can justwatch it in their eyes when they
check it out like they feel sucha sense of relief. And I think
(14:44):
that when you're hitting thesebudgetary constraints, I think
that it is smart to say, Okay,let me look at my talent, my get
stuff done, talent, my pmtalent, and say, who's helping
me advance the organization,who's here. It's nice to it's
nice to have those.Checklisters, right when you
have the budgets right they, youknow, but like, do that? Do that
(15:06):
critical analysis of those twoparticular talent pools, look at
what your objective businessgoals are, and then, if you have
the timing capacity, check inwith the leaders of the teams
that those PMS support, becausethose are the people who are
going to understand whether ornot you know what the impact of
(15:27):
losing that person might be.Yeah, it, you
Amanda Jane Lee (15:32):
know, just going back to the Get Stuff
donors right and like, theimpact of these pm type people.
It's, it's not just thechecklist, right? It's, you
know, aligning teams. It'sunblocking the teams. It's
spotting risks and raising therisks early and often, like,
(15:54):
because of that, you know, backto our definitions, because of
that strategic view, the bigpicture view your program
manager might have insight tosomething that you know you as
your you know that core teamworking on that one thing may
not have
Indra Klavins (16:12):
right and you want your you want your teams to
have that focus. And the reasonthey can focus is because they
know there's somebody who'swatching for everything, and is
giving them air cover, the aircover, the air cover is so real.
It's very real. It's very real.And so, like, it's, I think,
yeah, I don't know where I thinkI've said an awful lot. Any
(16:36):
other, any there's so many otherareas that we can go into. Yeah,
I think, um, you know, we'vetalked
Amanda Jane Lee (16:43):
a lot about what, what the skills of these,
these PMS are, yeah, um, can wetalk about how, like, why are,
why are, I'm gonna say we. Whyare we undervalued? Why are we
always the ones, you know, who,who may be first on the chopping
block when it comes to layofftime, right?
Indra Klavins (17:06):
It's a great question, and I think it's, I
would say that it's our owndoing. I would even say it's our
own doing as a collective, notas individuals, but as a
collective. I think it's our owndoing because we haven't done a
the best job at educating theworld on what we do, how we do
(17:28):
it, why we do it, because mostof the best project program
folks are not the ones who areseeking the spotlight. They're
not the ones who feel the needto be on stage, unless it's
really to help support someoneelse, right? They're not.
They're not the ones who arelike vying for people's
(17:48):
attention like I think that weare the people who love being in
the back room, helping tohelping to help others be their
best selves. And what I'm tryingto do in a part of it is this
hot podcast, right? Like, let'syou've joined me in this podcast
specifically, but even in thethought leadership that I write,
(18:10):
or whatever it is, is helping togive language to the things that
people do, give value to thethings that people do, and find
measurement systems, not onlyjust talking about them so that
people understand peopleunderstand the difference
between a project manager and aprogram manager, and I've got a
story about that one, but alsounderstand how to measure it,
(18:30):
how to evaluate it, how torecognize that what's good and
what's bad. You know, becauseI'll tell my favorite story with
project and program management.I was at WeWork, and I was one
of the most more, maybe one ofthe more seasoned people in the
get stuff done world, right. Andso inevitably, whenever there
(18:51):
was on a regular basis, I wouldhave somebody who had been given
the title program manager findme over slack and like, Hey, can
I talk to you? And the number oftimes that this person was fresh
out of college, had never donethis job before, and then had
been hired into the role programmanager, was quite surprising.
(19:16):
And this is not to throw any oneorganization under a bus like,
this is, just happens to be thestory I'm telling. I could tell
this story probably about everysingle company and organization
I've worked with, because thepeople who are hiring project
and program managers don'tunderstand the difference
between these things, and itdilutes the value of, you know,
(19:37):
the seniority I've got a I mightactually publish in our show
notes, I'll drop a link to aslide that I have that explains,
like, the career progression ofbasic project, program,
operation, stuff that is easyfor any human being to
understand. Oh, that's theperson that talks to my
stakeholders and figures outstuff and, oh, that's a that's a
version of the title that wouldwork. Okay, cool, cool. Like, we
(19:58):
don't talk about it enough. Tothe people outside of our craft.
That was a really big, longrant,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:04):
but I agree with you, though, like we it is,
it is our own doing, becauseyou're right. All of the really
good program managers I know arethe are like, we're all in this
craft, because we don't want thecredit, we don't want the
spotlight. We want to be behindthe scenes. We want to be the
(20:26):
stage hands, moving thingsaround to make the scene look
good. Yes, but we don't need tobe, you know, in the spotlight,
front and center, being like,hey, this launch, because,
because of me and myorganization and like my herding
the cats, right? Like, no, youknow, I that just reminds me of
(20:47):
a story when you know I wasdoing, like a meet and greet
with a new hire in anotherdepartment, and they asked me,
oh, so you know, how often doyou do you talk to customers?
And I was like, No, this is notcustomer facing. Like, if I
want, if I wanted to talk tocustomers, like, if I really
wanted to talk to customers, Iwould be a product manager or
(21:12):
customer
Indra Klavins (21:12):
experience,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:15):
like, I like to be behind the scenes here, like,
I like to be the orchestrator ofthe thing. I don't need to be
the face of the thing.
Indra Klavins (21:24):
Yeah, and I think that that's like for and I think
we need to use some more ofthose metaphors, like, if I
think about it, when I getmoments that I get excited at
the Grammys are when a and whena performer brings their
producer on stage. Because, do Ihave the same skill set as a
producer? No, because I'm notmusically inclined in that way.
(21:46):
But it's the same kind of thing,because they know that producer
is that partner that gets thebest out of them, that helps
them to shape that song intosomething, or that album, or
whatever it might be, intosomething. I loved your example
of, you know, the stage handswho are behind the scene, or,
you know, like, there's so manypeople like, if you think about
a Broadway show, I know you andI enjoy a Broadway show or two,
(22:06):
like the people who you neversee, who are required to make
that production happen everynight. That's your program and
project management. And youknow, the more seasoned they
are, the more likely they are tobe able to point out pitfalls
and risks and the things thatyou'll overlook.
Amanda Jane Lee (22:27):
And when I if we're going, if we're continuing
the Broadway show, Sure, let'sdo it right. Like, Oh man, that
that, that floorboard is alittle squeaky. Like, Hey,
everyone, ignore that one. I'mgoing to put a piece of tape on
it, yeah. Like, avoid that one,right?
Indra Klavins (22:47):
And then you'll and then, not only will you do
that for that performance,you're going to work with the
appropriate union staff to getthe right person in to repair it
so that people can stop havingto avoid that one little spot
that's creating a squeak andthrowing off the sound for the
whatever it might be for themicrophones, exactly. Yeah, and
(23:08):
this is not a skill that comesnaturally or organically for
anyone you know, the talkinglike I think that the first step
is the first step in in beingable to share the stories of the
pm with the rest of the world ispracticing those stories in
community and finding community.And so what's really great is
(23:31):
there are some and it's amazingconsidering how long
organizations like PMI have beenaround Program Management
Institute have been around likethere haven't really been a lot
of really good, supportivecommunities out there up until
relatively recently, at leastnot that I've found. And the
ones that I found, there's twothat come to mind. One is the
(23:55):
design ops assembly. The designoperations world is the get
stuff done, or UX and UI design,right? And that term got coined
in, I think, 2017 if I remembercorrectly, my dates and what or
what created. And shout out toRosenfeld media for getting that
conversation started and forstarting the first conference.
(24:16):
But that first conference wasthe catalyst to community
creation, and that community isreally, really tremendous,
really, really rich, really,really supportive of each other.
So if you're in or around thedesign world, highly recommend
the design ops assembly andgetting your way into that
(24:37):
community. There's a rich Slackcommunity. It's it's really,
really good. The other one thatcomes to mind also relatively
new. Millie's last name, I'mnever going to remember right
now, but Millie, she's out ofthe UK, started an organization
called generalists world, and sothat is, we mentioned them a
little bit at the top of the atthe top of the episode. And they
(25:01):
have also created a communityaround generalists, get stuff,
donors, in general, in a verybroad sense of the term. So
you're thinking of your chiefsof staff. We haven't talked
about Chiefs of Staff at all,right, like but so it's broader
than just the folks that we weretalking about on this episode.
So those are the things I highlyrecommend, seeking out, finding
community, whether it's one ofthose two, we'll make sure that
their links are in our shownotes. Those are, those are,
(25:23):
that's that. And if you can'tfind any of those, find your
advocates and supporters in yourorganization. Find your allies.
Like this is the class. It's aclassic move, and it's a classic
move because it works. Find yourallies in your organization who
can be your proponents and youradvocates when you're not there.
Amanda Jane Lee (25:40):
Yeah, there's the community piece, and the
like, everyone in the communityunderstands what everyone in the
community does, right? So, like,that's the that's the community
and like, the the internalsupport piece, but I think that
piece of finding your advocatesand getting people to to market
(26:00):
for you a little bit right?People, people who get it,
people who understand the valueof working with a good PM, like
get those people to evangelize.Is that the word I'm looking
for, like evangelism
Indra Klavins (26:16):
with the lower KC, with a lower case
Amanda Jane Lee (26:19):
right to market the value of a PM, because,
yeah, like, the number of timesI've started a new job, and, you
know, done one of these meet andgreets with people on the team.
Very often people are like, Sowhat exactly do you do? And how
(26:41):
is that different from another Plike another product manager or
a project manager, or insertother thing here?
Indra Klavins (26:49):
Yeah, yeah. And I think the you made me think of
another specific to this momentin time. What I've seen, the
trend that you see over thecourse of time is that when
we're in a market boom. You knowwhen, when the job market is is
more on the side of people, thethe workers versus the
companies, there's more moredemand for work out there. What
(27:14):
you'll see is there will beconsolidation and of departments
of program managers, ofoperations, folks, and they'll
be functions that create teams,and those are the ones that you
know when the times get tightand lean, those are the things
that get dissolved. And whenyou're savvy, and it's not, you
can't always pull this off,right So, but just for those who
(27:36):
have not done this before,haven't thought about it, a
friend of mine who is in this Pmworld. Recently, her
organization went through awhole restructuring, not
necessarily a downsizing, but arestructuring which has the same
types of behaviors, whereeveryone's, like, a little bit
on edge, because you don't knowif there is a cut that's going
to happen right afterwards,right after that restructuring,
(27:58):
after the deck chairs areshuffled, like, Where? Where
Where did everyone land? And dowe need these people? That
person was working on, what wewere talking through is like
talking through is how they'recreating their strategies of
creating their alliances withthe people they support, so that
if the team does get dissolvedfor whatever reason, that person
might be able to absorb herheadcount and her role to move
(28:22):
that forward. So like, there'sdifferent strategies, different
ways, but like, You got to workall the tactics. You got to be
constantly talking about whatyou do. It's not comfortable
because it wasn't what we wantto do. But we need to learn how
to be good at talking aboutourselves. We need to be good at
starting to thump our chests alittle bit more and brag a
little bit more about what wedo, like this. Stop the self
deprecating stuff, which I'mvery, exceptionally good at,
(28:44):
right? Like stop that and say,No, I did this. I brought this
value. This is what I did andhow I contributed. Like you.
There are the moments where youcan elevate the team, but don't
do it at your own expense,because when times are lean,
you're going to need all that PRthat you've done, and you've
built up in that goodwill youbuilt up to make sure that you
can succeed.
Amanda Jane Lee (29:04):
So, yeah, step into the spotlight a bit. And,
you know, I, I'm, I'm guilty ofstepping back from the
spotlight, right? But, yeah, Ihave learned, step into the
spotlight. You know, get, getyour Grammy, Grammy winning
artist to pull you on stage withwith them.
Indra Klavins (29:23):
Yeah, I mean, Taylor Swift's always up there
with Jack Alton, right? Likeit's all it's always there, like
it's and he's that's not theonly one. But like, be Think,
think of being a famousproducer. Think of big, famous
music producer, try and aspirefor that you like, find your tea
sweat, find your Beyonce, findyour whatever. I don't know, but
anyway. Amanda, any other lastthoughts? I think we gave
(29:44):
everybody Enough, enough, a lotof good stuff here.
Oh, yeah, I think we gaveeveryone a lot to think about.
Amanda Jane Lee (29:51):
Yeah, well,
Indra Klavins (29:53):
we are very passionate
Amanda Jane Lee (29:54):
about this.
Indra Klavins (29:55):
We hope that our listeners are too, or at least
they learned something. Um. Wehope that you all will join us
next time when we talk aboutanother topic from the messy
middle. Bye, everyone,
Amanda Jane Lee (30:06):
thanks. Bye.
Indra Klavins (30:09):
If today's episode hit home or just made
you laugh, you might love ourmerch. We've got three
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(30:32):
check your size before ordering.But if anything goes wrong with
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Looking for a different cut orsize. Email us at podcast, at
the messy middle matters.com, sothat we can explore the option.
Thanks for making the messymiddle matter. You.
Indra. I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters.
Hey, Amanda, how are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:19):
I'm good. How are you Indra?
Indra Klavins (00:20):
I'm god, I'm good. Once again, we're going to
be talking about something nearand dear to our hearts, the
craft that is the backbone toyours and my careers, project,
program, operations, management,all the things. Management, all
the things, all the all thethings, all the get stuff done.
Stuffers, yes, yes. And sobefore we dig in, not everyone
(00:43):
is as deeply entrenched in thiscommunity. They've definitely,
they've probably heard theterms. I don't want to say
definitely, but probably heardthe terms. But you know, there
is something that the people inthe craft, there's some nuance
that people within the craft mayunderstand, that people who are
not in the craft may not. So letme go through some definitions.
So for the purposes of ourconversation, and this is just a
(01:03):
broad working definition of it,project managers are people who
are responsible for planning andexecuting and delivering
individual projects within adefined scope, timeline and
budget. So you can imagine, Ineed to have a new checkout
workflow for my website, or Ineed to put on this particular
event for 20 people like they'rethey're not, they're usually not
(01:27):
overly complex. They're usuallypretty contained, and they have
a clear, clear set ofdeliverables that are going on
with them. So that's projectmanagers.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:37):
Yeah, a project has a beginning and an end has a
beginning and
Indra Klavins (01:41):
an end programs. So this is where people, a lot
of people, confuse the wordsproject and program managers,
which drives both of us a littlewacky. But a program manager
oversees a group of relatedprojects a program to ensure
that they align with broaderbusiness objectives. So you
could think about this as likeyou have an app that you're
(02:04):
creating, you might have oneteam doing that checkout
workflow, because you'd have ashopping component to it. You
have another team that's worriedabout making sure that the
videos get served properly, andthey're working on that, and
that's a different project. Andwe have a third team that's
worried about all the othervisual the navigation of the
applications. You have threeprojects, and the program
(02:26):
manager makes sure that allthose things are working well,
they're going to end at theright time, so that you can
launch your app on time. Sothat's a program, and that's one
example of a type of a program.Any other, anything else that I
can add to make sure that that'sclear for our
Amanda Jane Lee (02:42):
um, yeah, there, there's security and
compliance requirements, youknow, yes, that are, that are
not being worked on in any ofthese projects, but as an
overall like business goal, wehave to ensure this so a program
manager would be aware of thoserequirements and ensure that you
(03:03):
know all of those requirementsare met, so that we can launch
the thing. Yeah, that's the onlything I would add.
Indra Klavins (03:08):
I love that. So, yeah. So yeah, they're worried
about all the projects that aregoing on and anything else
that's necessary for that thingto be successful, whether it's
working with partners orwhatever it might be like. They
just, they have their eyes oneverything. They have their eyes
on the big picture. So program,big picture project, really set
scope and really set focus, andthat's for delivering things and
(03:30):
putting things out into theworld, right? Operations
managers are a third flavor,which is which have a very
similar skill set, right? Sooperations managers, and, you
know, there's various careerstages for each one of these,
but, like, let's just keep itpretty simple, but operations
managers ensure that the day today functions of a business or a
team runs smoothly. So this willbe making sure everyone's
(03:53):
laptops work. Make sure thateveryone that there's an all
hands that's going on. Make surethat the budget is being
balanced. Make sure that youknow just anything that needs to
that someone else isn't takingcare of that makes the
organization function, whetherit's a team or a company, gets
done, gets done like those arethe operations people. And so
(04:16):
for the purposes of our podcast,we're going to call this group
of folks, P and like so, justfor the scope of these 30
minutes ish, that you're withus, pm is project or program
manager or an ops person. JustJust know that we're going to
use that for them, because Godheaven knows that like that gets
that that word Pm is yet anotherone of those. What those terms
(04:39):
that needs to be clarified allthe time,
Amanda Jane Lee (04:42):
right? Because pm could also mean product
manager. It could also meanPortfolio Manager. It could mean
Prime Minister. It could mean,you know, private message. It
could, like so many
Indra Klavins (04:55):
things stand for, and like, it's so funny whenever
somebody's. Is, oh, the pm willtake care of that. I'm like,
Who,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:03):
What do you mean by pm? Like, Well,
Indra Klavins (05:05):
that'll be, that'll be, you know, like,
Jorge. I'm like, that's great,fantastic. Because I'm also a
PM, or This one's also a pm, Ijust wanted to make sure we knew
what was going on. And they'llstare at me like, I've got like,
six heads. I'm like, I wouldrather be clear what we mean,
but so that everyone knows youdon't need to stare at your
cells or each other with sixheads as you're listening to
(05:26):
this. PM, is project program oroperations manager for the for
the duration of this, thispodcast. And the last bonus term
that we're going to throw inthere for just because I'm sure
we're going to mention itsomewhere along the way, and
this is courtesy are friends atgeneralist world that we're
going to talk about, probably alittle bit too, but a
generalist. So a generalist is amulti skilled, adaptable, fast
(05:50):
learner who can jump into anyrole and make things happen. So
I think that most, most programmanagers, a lot of project
managers, most program managersand probably a lot of operations
managers, are generalists,right?
Amanda Jane Lee (06:08):
They're the get stuff done, or is, like you said
at the top of the episode,right? Like they get stuff done?
Indra Klavins (06:13):
Yeah. And you know, the reason that we're
talking about this topic now isnot because we're passionate
about the topic, which we are,but because we're seeing so many
organizations right now downsizetheir get stuff done, our teams
right all their PMS, the numberof tremendously talented, highly
(06:37):
qualified PMS that are out onthe market. Some of them
specialize in specific liketypes of projects. Some of them
don't like there. It doesn'tmatter, it's there. There's an
awful lot of them that are onthe market right now, and I it's
because of budgetaryconstraints, but I also believe
that the there, the these cuts,are exceptionally short sighted
(07:02):
these, yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:04):
agreed. I personally know so many program
manager type people who are onthe market right now, and I
agree that it's a short sightedmove for these companies to
eliminate these teams. Yeah,because
Indra Klavins (07:21):
the work doesn't disappear. No, but what's what's
happened is, like these folksare undervalued in general, but
what's what's happened is a fewdifferent things. One is that
the proliferation of SaaSSoftware as a Service, online
programs that that can handleproject management types of
(07:45):
things. I'm thinking of yourMonday dot coms. I'm thinking of
your Trello I'm thinking of yourasanas. Those tools, boom. Some
of those tools are great. Someof those tools drive me crazy,
but we're not. This podcast isnot about that. But what those
tools do? Amanda's laughing, forthose of you not watching the
video versions of Amanda'slaughing because she's heard my
(08:05):
rants about them. But the reasonthat those tools are really
good, but the marketingmaterials for those tools are
like, Oh, your teams can selforganize. Oh, your teams can
handle this by themselves. But,but what it overlooks is the
ability to yes, they theyhandled systematically things
(08:27):
really well. Yes, they sendprompts, yes they send alerts.
But that's checklist management.That's checklists and reminders.
And a good Pm is there's theirvalue is not in checklists. I
mean, yes, they will createchecklists make sure those
checklists are done. Everyoneagrees on what's on the
checklist, but their value isnot in that checklist. It's in
(08:51):
so many other things, yeah?
Amanda Jane Lee (08:53):
Just like, insert any other job title here.
Is a craft, yeah? ProgramManagement is a craft, yeah,
like there are, there are peoplelike you and I who this is our
craft. This is what we do. Thisis what we do. Well, this is
what we have experience in. And
Indra Klavins (09:13):
the tools help us do it better, but they do not
replace people who do this. AndI think that that's the thing
that a lot of these people whoare and I, and I've been that
person facing budgetaryconstraints, so I don't, I'm not
casting shade. This intent is toshare wisdom so that the next
time they can make a moreinformed choice. Because it's,
(09:38):
it's in the it's the managementand stuff like was, because if
you don't have a person who istasked with the get stuff done,
I mean, I think we gave a wholebunch of really good examples as
we were going through ourdefinitions, but you don't have
somebody watching for all thosethings, someone on your team
whose day job is softwareengineering, marketing
(09:59):
professional. All copywriting,designing, whatever it might be,
winds up having to do their dayjob and project management stuff
and not necessarily do it thatwell, because it's not a certain
thought their core competencyand b It's not what gets them in
flow. It's not the thing thatthat's not the reason they
(10:19):
joined your company to workthere. They're not. They're, in
all likelihood, there's a thereare some people who would enjoy
it, but in low likelihoodthey'll find it to be an
annoying thing that keeps itfrom, keeps them from being able
to do their day job, which theylove. Yeah, and
Amanda Jane Lee (10:34):
I would even add that someone who has to take
time and capacity away fromtheir day job to do project
management type things like thatis going to be a detriment to
themselves and to the team,because they're now splitting
time between their day job, thething that brings them joy, the
(10:54):
thing that you know they'rereally good at their craft,
yeah, and they have to now spendhowever many hours ensuring
that, you know, all the piecesare being orchestrated, all the
things are being done. You know,all the dots are being
connected, all of the glue workthat a lot of pm type people do
is happening 100% and
Indra Klavins (11:18):
then what happens then the cascading effects.
Let's follow this through. Whathappens then is a, we've already
talked about how they're they'refrustrated. B, we've talked
about how their team isfrustrated with them because
they can't deliver the way atthe capacity that they used to
be able to deliver. Let's saythey were able to. I'm going to
choose a. It's a terriblemetric, but it's a metric.
(11:38):
Nonetheless, they used to, everysingle cycle, they'd be able to
deliver 100 lines of code, andnow they're only able to deliver
50. And their teams like, whycan't you deliver 100 still,
like, what's wrong? Like, andthey get frustrated, and they
get resentful, and they startlashing out at the person. And
then, you know, comes aquarterly review, and you know,
the the person's boss is like,hey, you know, like, you didn't,
(12:02):
you only delivered 150 lines ofcode per cycle. And so, like,
you're not doing your job verywell. And they're like, but
there's all this other stuffthat needs to be done. And then
you can imagine the frustrationand the poor review of the
person, and the person leaves,and then, like, it's just and
then you lose that, into that,that that IP, and anyone who's
(12:23):
been on a hiring cycle knowsthat it's so much, it's it's so
much more important to retainyour good talent than it is to
go and hunt for talent, becausefinding a new person in your
best case scenario takes twomonths. So like the thing that
like, so these are thedownstream costs we've gotten
(12:44):
off topic. But the point is, ofgetting off topic is that fact
that this decision about cuttingcosts, but and getting rid of
your get stuff done or folks,has not only stopped you from
getting stuff done and slowedthe progress of your project?
You're now in a recruiting cyclebecause you got to start hiring
someone because they wound updoing a project manager. Doing a
project management job insteadof, like a software engineering
(13:05):
job, but cause they got and theygot frustrated and want to go
somewhere else where they couldactually do their
Amanda Jane Lee (13:10):
job. Yeah, it just creates this snowball
effect that I don't think a lotof people realize or talk about,
Indra Klavins (13:16):
no, and I think that there's like, and let's be
clear, and I think we should gointo this too, like, not all PMS
are created equal. In my livedexperience, it was like, Really,
you don't say, right? Yeah, inmy experience, there's, there's
two types, there's the checklistmanagers, and then there's the
(13:38):
get stuff done. Or it's like,and it's, it's more for me, when
I categorize people in my mindin these two different camps,
it's their intrinsic rewardsystem, right? There are the
people who want to make otherssucceed, and those, to me, are
the get stuff done. Ers,sometimes when they're really
early in their career, andthey're really early on in the
craft, they might be focusing onchecklists, but their goal,
(14:01):
their motivation, is in the getstuff done. And then there's the
people who are happy as clam,creating checklists, marking
things red, amber and green, youknow, red, yellow, green as a
status of of the health of theparticular project or the
particular item, sending outfollow up emails and creating
status reports. Those, to me,are the checklist, PMS. There's
(14:21):
checklist PMS, and get subbed onPMS, right? And the checklist
PMS are, you know, the rewardis, Am I done with this project?
Has this project like, has itbeen shipped? Done? Cool. Gonna
move on to my, my next thing?They're either yes, their,
their, their intrinsic reward isliterally in marking off that
checkbox. Like, you can justwatch it in their eyes when they
check it out like they feel sucha sense of relief. And I think
(14:44):
that when you're hitting thesebudgetary constraints, I think
that it is smart to say, Okay,let me look at my talent, my get
stuff done, talent, my pmtalent, and say, who's helping
me advance the organization,who's here. It's nice to it's
nice to have those.Checklisters, right when you
have the budgets right they, youknow, but like, do that? Do that
(15:06):
critical analysis of those twoparticular talent pools, look at
what your objective businessgoals are, and then, if you have
the timing capacity, check inwith the leaders of the teams
that those PMS support, becausethose are the people who are
going to understand whether ornot you know what the impact of
(15:27):
losing that person might be.Yeah, it, you
Amanda Jane Lee (15:32):
know, just going back to the Get Stuff
donors right and like, theimpact of these pm type people.
It's, it's not just thechecklist, right? It's, you
know, aligning teams. It'sunblocking the teams. It's
spotting risks and raising therisks early and often, like,
(15:54):
because of that, you know, backto our definitions, because of
that strategic view, the bigpicture view your program
manager might have insight tosomething that you know you as
your you know that core teamworking on that one thing may
not have
Indra Klavins (16:12):
right and you want your you want your teams to
have that focus. And the reasonthey can focus is because they
know there's somebody who'swatching for everything, and is
giving them air cover, the aircover, the air cover is so real.
It's very real. It's very real.And so, like, it's, I think,
yeah, I don't know where I thinkI've said an awful lot. Any
(16:36):
other, any there's so many otherareas that we can go into. Yeah,
I think, um, you know, we'vetalked
Amanda Jane Lee (16:43):
a lot about what, what the skills of these,
these PMS are, yeah, um, can wetalk about how, like, why are,
why are, I'm gonna say we. Whyare we undervalued? Why are we
always the ones, you know, who,who may be first on the chopping
block when it comes to layofftime, right?
Indra Klavins (17:06):
It's a great question, and I think it's, I
would say that it's our owndoing. I would even say it's our
own doing as a collective, notas individuals, but as a
collective. I think it's our owndoing because we haven't done a
the best job at educating theworld on what we do, how we do
(17:28):
it, why we do it, because mostof the best project program
folks are not the ones who areseeking the spotlight. They're
not the ones who feel the needto be on stage, unless it's
really to help support someoneelse, right? They're not.
They're not the ones who arelike vying for people's
(17:48):
attention like I think that weare the people who love being in
the back room, helping tohelping to help others be their
best selves. And what I'm tryingto do in a part of it is this
hot podcast, right? Like, let'syou've joined me in this podcast
specifically, but even in thethought leadership that I write,
(18:10):
or whatever it is, is helping togive language to the things that
people do, give value to thethings that people do, and find
measurement systems, not onlyjust talking about them so that
people understand peopleunderstand the difference
between a project manager and aprogram manager, and I've got a
story about that one, but alsounderstand how to measure it,
(18:30):
how to evaluate it, how torecognize that what's good and
what's bad. You know, becauseI'll tell my favorite story with
project and program management.I was at WeWork, and I was one
of the most more, maybe one ofthe more seasoned people in the
get stuff done world, right. Andso inevitably, whenever there
(18:51):
was on a regular basis, I wouldhave somebody who had been given
the title program manager findme over slack and like, Hey, can
I talk to you? And the number oftimes that this person was fresh
out of college, had never donethis job before, and then had
been hired into the role programmanager, was quite surprising.
(19:16):
And this is not to throw any oneorganization under a bus like,
this is, just happens to be thestory I'm telling. I could tell
this story probably about everysingle company and organization
I've worked with, because thepeople who are hiring project
and program managers don'tunderstand the difference
between these things, and itdilutes the value of, you know,
(19:37):
the seniority I've got a I mightactually publish in our show
notes, I'll drop a link to aslide that I have that explains,
like, the career progression ofbasic project, program,
operation, stuff that is easyfor any human being to
understand. Oh, that's theperson that talks to my
stakeholders and figures outstuff and, oh, that's a that's a
version of the title that wouldwork. Okay, cool, cool. Like, we
(19:58):
don't talk about it enough. Tothe people outside of our craft.
That was a really big, longrant,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:04):
but I agree with you, though, like we it is,
it is our own doing, becauseyou're right. All of the really
good program managers I know arethe are like, we're all in this
craft, because we don't want thecredit, we don't want the
spotlight. We want to be behindthe scenes. We want to be the
(20:26):
stage hands, moving thingsaround to make the scene look
good. Yes, but we don't need tobe, you know, in the spotlight,
front and center, being like,hey, this launch, because,
because of me and myorganization and like my herding
the cats, right? Like, no, youknow, I that just reminds me of
(20:47):
a story when you know I wasdoing, like a meet and greet
with a new hire in anotherdepartment, and they asked me,
oh, so you know, how often doyou do you talk to customers?
And I was like, No, this is notcustomer facing. Like, if I
want, if I wanted to talk tocustomers, like, if I really
wanted to talk to customers, Iwould be a product manager or
(21:12):
customer
Indra Klavins (21:12):
experience,
Amanda Jane Lee (21:15):
like, I like to be behind the scenes here, like,
I like to be the orchestrator ofthe thing. I don't need to be
the face of the thing.
Indra Klavins (21:24):
Yeah, and I think that that's like for and I think
we need to use some more ofthose metaphors, like, if I
think about it, when I getmoments that I get excited at
the Grammys are when a and whena performer brings their
producer on stage. Because, do Ihave the same skill set as a
producer? No, because I'm notmusically inclined in that way.
(21:46):
But it's the same kind of thing,because they know that producer
is that partner that gets thebest out of them, that helps
them to shape that song intosomething, or that album, or
whatever it might be, intosomething. I loved your example
of, you know, the stage handswho are behind the scene, or,
you know, like, there's so manypeople like, if you think about
a Broadway show, I know you andI enjoy a Broadway show or two,
(22:06):
like the people who you neversee, who are required to make
that production happen everynight. That's your program and
project management. And youknow, the more seasoned they
are, the more likely they are tobe able to point out pitfalls
and risks and the things thatyou'll overlook.
Amanda Jane Lee (22:27):
And when I if we're going, if we're continuing
the Broadway show, Sure, let'sdo it right. Like, Oh man, that
that, that floorboard is alittle squeaky. Like, Hey,
everyone, ignore that one. I'mgoing to put a piece of tape on
it, yeah. Like, avoid that one,right?
Indra Klavins (22:47):
And then you'll and then, not only will you do
that for that performance,you're going to work with the
appropriate union staff to getthe right person in to repair it
so that people can stop havingto avoid that one little spot
that's creating a squeak andthrowing off the sound for the
whatever it might be for themicrophones, exactly. Yeah, and
(23:08):
this is not a skill that comesnaturally or organically for
anyone you know, the talkinglike I think that the first step
is the first step in in beingable to share the stories of the
pm with the rest of the world ispracticing those stories in
community and finding community.And so what's really great is
(23:31):
there are some and it's amazingconsidering how long
organizations like PMI have beenaround Program Management
Institute have been around likethere haven't really been a lot
of really good, supportivecommunities out there up until
relatively recently, at leastnot that I've found. And the
ones that I found, there's twothat come to mind. One is the
(23:55):
design ops assembly. The designoperations world is the get
stuff done, or UX and UI design,right? And that term got coined
in, I think, 2017 if I remembercorrectly, my dates and what or
what created. And shout out toRosenfeld media for getting that
conversation started and forstarting the first conference.
(24:16):
But that first conference wasthe catalyst to community
creation, and that community isreally, really tremendous,
really, really rich, really,really supportive of each other.
So if you're in or around thedesign world, highly recommend
the design ops assembly andgetting your way into that
(24:37):
community. There's a rich Slackcommunity. It's it's really,
really good. The other one thatcomes to mind also relatively
new. Millie's last name, I'mnever going to remember right
now, but Millie, she's out ofthe UK, started an organization
called generalists world, and sothat is, we mentioned them a
little bit at the top of the atthe top of the episode. And they
(25:01):
have also created a communityaround generalists, get stuff,
donors, in general, in a verybroad sense of the term. So
you're thinking of your chiefsof staff. We haven't talked
about Chiefs of Staff at all,right, like but so it's broader
than just the folks that we weretalking about on this episode.
So those are the things I highlyrecommend, seeking out, finding
community, whether it's one ofthose two, we'll make sure that
their links are in our shownotes. Those are, those are,
(25:23):
that's that. And if you can'tfind any of those, find your
advocates and supporters in yourorganization. Find your allies.
Like this is the class. It's aclassic move, and it's a classic
move because it works. Find yourallies in your organization who
can be your proponents and youradvocates when you're not there.
Amanda Jane Lee (25:40):
Yeah, there's the community piece, and the
like, everyone in the communityunderstands what everyone in the
community does, right? So, like,that's the that's the community
and like, the the internalsupport piece, but I think that
piece of finding your advocatesand getting people to to market
(26:00):
for you a little bit right?People, people who get it,
people who understand the valueof working with a good PM, like
get those people to evangelize.Is that the word I'm looking
for, like evangelism
Indra Klavins (26:16):
with the lower KC, with a lower case
Amanda Jane Lee (26:19):
right to market the value of a PM, because,
yeah, like, the number of timesI've started a new job, and, you
know, done one of these meet andgreets with people on the team.
Very often people are like, Sowhat exactly do you do? And how
(26:41):
is that different from another Plike another product manager or
a project manager, or insertother thing here?
Indra Klavins (26:49):
Yeah, yeah. And I think the you made me think of
another specific to this momentin time. What I've seen, the
trend that you see over thecourse of time is that when
we're in a market boom. You knowwhen, when the job market is is
more on the side of people, thethe workers versus the
companies, there's more moredemand for work out there. What
(27:14):
you'll see is there will beconsolidation and of departments
of program managers, ofoperations, folks, and they'll
be functions that create teams,and those are the ones that you
know when the times get tightand lean, those are the things
that get dissolved. And whenyou're savvy, and it's not, you
can't always pull this off,right So, but just for those who
(27:36):
have not done this before,haven't thought about it, a
friend of mine who is in this Pmworld. Recently, her
organization went through awhole restructuring, not
necessarily a downsizing, but arestructuring which has the same
types of behaviors, whereeveryone's, like, a little bit
on edge, because you don't knowif there is a cut that's going
to happen right afterwards,right after that restructuring,
(27:58):
after the deck chairs areshuffled, like, Where? Where
Where did everyone land? And dowe need these people? That
person was working on, what wewere talking through is like
talking through is how they'recreating their strategies of
creating their alliances withthe people they support, so that
if the team does get dissolvedfor whatever reason, that person
might be able to absorb herheadcount and her role to move
(28:22):
that forward. So like, there'sdifferent strategies, different
ways, but like, You got to workall the tactics. You got to be
constantly talking about whatyou do. It's not comfortable
because it wasn't what we wantto do. But we need to learn how
to be good at talking aboutourselves. We need to be good at
starting to thump our chests alittle bit more and brag a
little bit more about what wedo, like this. Stop the self
deprecating stuff, which I'mvery, exceptionally good at,
(28:44):
right? Like stop that and say,No, I did this. I brought this
value. This is what I did andhow I contributed. Like you.
There are the moments where youcan elevate the team, but don't
do it at your own expense,because when times are lean,
you're going to need all that PRthat you've done, and you've
built up in that goodwill youbuilt up to make sure that you
can succeed.
Amanda Jane Lee (29:04):
So, yeah, step into the spotlight a bit. And,
you know, I, I'm, I'm guilty ofstepping back from the
spotlight, right? But, yeah, Ihave learned, step into the
spotlight. You know, get, getyour Grammy, Grammy winning
artist to pull you on stage withwith them.
Indra Klavins (29:23):
Yeah, I mean, Taylor Swift's always up there
with Jack Alton, right? Likeit's all it's always there, like
it's and he's that's not theonly one. But like, be Think,
think of being a famousproducer. Think of big, famous
music producer, try and aspirefor that you like, find your tea
sweat, find your Beyonce, findyour whatever. I don't know, but
anyway. Amanda, any other lastthoughts? I think we gave
(29:44):
everybody Enough, enough, a lotof good stuff here.
Oh, yeah, I think we gaveeveryone a lot to think about.
Amanda Jane Lee (29:51):
Yeah, well,
Indra Klavins (29:53):
we are very passionate
Amanda Jane Lee (29:54):
about this.
Indra Klavins (29:55):
We hope that our listeners are too, or at least
they learned something. Um. Wehope that you all will join us
next time when we talk aboutanother topic from the messy
middle. Bye, everyone,
Amanda Jane Lee (30:06):
thanks. Bye.
Indra Klavins (30:09):
If today's episode hit home or just made
you laugh, you might love ourmerch. We've got three
collections. Don't make meregret and honor the sweatshirt
that started it all. Wordsmatter. Inspired by our most
popular episode and embrace themessy to celebrate the beautiful
chaos. Head to shop, dotthemessymiddle matters.com, to
take a look. Everything's printon demand, so be sure to double
(30:32):
check your size before ordering.But if anything goes wrong with
the printing, our vendor willwork with you to make it right.
Looking for a different cut orsize. Email us at podcast, at
the messy middle matters.com, sothat we can explore the option.
Thanks for making the messymiddle matter. You.
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