June 11, 2025 • 25 mins
Soft skills: everyone talks about them, few people define them, and even fewer get help building them. In this episode, Indra and Amanda dig into the nuanced world of interpersonal and emotional intelligence—the unspoken skills that make or break how we collaborate, lead, and show up at work.
From navigating conflict and giving feedback to facilitating meetings and reading the room, they explore why soft skills often surface in high-stakes moments... and why most training programs barely scratch the surface.
They share real talk on:
- Whether soft skills are innate or learned
- Why these abilities require practice, not just theory
- How to start small and build confidence in safe spaces
- And how to listen to podcasts, panels, or even reality shows with a soft-skills lens
This episode is a reminder that emotional intelligence isn’t fluff—it’s foundational. And like any skill, it can be trained, strengthened, and occasionally pulled in for emergency use.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
Indra. I'm Indra,
Unknown (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I am good. How are
you Indra? I'm good. I'm good.Today we're going to talk about
soft skills, just something thatI feel like we exercise or talk
about in some way, shape or formon pretty much every episode
that we have. But we'll dig intoit a little bit more deeply
(00:32):
before we dig into the topicitself. Let me read off the
definition. Soft skills are thepersonal attributes and
interpersonal abilities thatenable individuals to interact
effectively with others,collaborate in teams and
navigate various professionaland social situations. My
experience the term usuallyshows up when the stakes are the
highest. It's when there'sconflict, when there's a tough
(00:54):
deadline, when it's performancereviews, it's all these high
stakes situations. Is when theterm shows up the most. It's
there all the time, but whensomebody says, Oh, you need to
work on your soft skills, alwayswhen it's the highest.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:11):
Yeah, agreed. And like, I've seen it a lot in
job descriptions, and it it's avery it can be a very vague
term, right? I know you justread off the definition, but it
can be very vague, and itapplies to it has different
applications and definitionsdepending on what that company
or that role is looking for. Butsoft skills, soft skills is such
(01:34):
a blanket term.
Indra Klavins (01:35):
It's a huge blanket term, and it can be so
contextual, I mean, and thereal, the reality of it is that
there are very few trainings onthese things. Like there
sometimes there's training onEQ, which is emotional
intelligence or communication orbut, you know, or sometimes
there's, there's some thingsthat, like touch on it, but like
(01:56):
true training on soft skills, Idon't think I've seen many, if
any, but there are so many waysyou can help to cultivate that,
and there's so many resourcesthat are may not be labeled as
soft skills, that, yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:10):
yeah. Or the opposite, right? Like, I've seen
a lot of YouTube videos or TEDtalks that are labeled soft
skills, but it's when you watchthe video. It's a very like,
narrow piece of what soft skillsare,
Indra Klavins (02:23):
yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean, I mean, we can talk
about soft skills. Soft skillstoday I'm wearing my Don't make
me regret trying to be helpfulsweatshirt, which was a
demonstration of soft skills inthe form of me getting my fan my
team sweatshirts, because wewere just being silly, and we
needed a silly way to diffusesituations, which is a form of a
soft skill. But, um, so thequestion that really shows up
(02:49):
when people talk about softskills is, are they innate? Are
we born with them, or is itsomething that we can learn? I
mean, I know that you have someperspectives on it. I've got
perspectives on it, yeah, yeah,um,
Amanda Jane Lee (03:01):
I think it's mostly something that you learn,
much like, I don't know, arethey called hard skills? What's
the opposite? Right? Like, hardskills,
Indra Klavins (03:11):
I know how to code this thing in this way.
That's a hard skill I canmention. Right? Yeah, right.
Like,
Amanda Jane Lee (03:15):
much like hard skills, it's something that you
learn and you practice, andthat's how you get better. I
think there are, you know, thereis a bit of the innate, like
aptitude for them. But I don'tthink you're just born with the
ability to to have good stuff,soft skills. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (03:35):
I think you're right. Think that some people
have more of a natural tendencytowards them, or are born with a
temperament that lends itselfmore to soft skills, and some
have challenges in that area,but everybody can learn them. I
think everybody can learn them,but it takes in whether you're
born with them or you're notborn with the aptitude. The
(03:57):
reality is you have to use them,practice them, just like, I
think that when you know you,you're the one who brought it up
in an earlier conversation youand I had, it's like, going to
the gym, like, you've got toexercise those muscles of soft
skills all the time. Or else youlose them, you lose them, or you
don't use them as effectively asas you would like to, as you
would like to, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (04:17):
It becomes a muscle memory. Or, like it
becomes second nature, right?Like, if you practice them
enough, it becomes secondnature, and then you're able to,
you know, just be able to run ameeting effectively, like, like
it's, you know, like you coulddo in your sleep.
Indra Klavins (04:33):
And that's, and that's where it kind of matters
the most, because, like, it is,because, like, I said, it shows
up, or it's the most front ofmind when the stakes are the
highest. Like, I was in aconversation the other day, and
this guy, I won't go intoexactly, but he came at me with
this very aggressive termanalogy. And I was just like,
whoa, whoa, whoa. I came back. Iredressed this, like I addressed
(04:58):
the situation. I pivoted back tomy point of. I was saying you
can't practice for that stuff.But because I'd gone to the
proverbial gym so much, I knewhow I had a skill set to draw
from. So you just
Amanda Jane Lee (05:09):
right, you you practice those skills, and then
you just knew how to navigatethat situation without, you
know, your fight or flight orfreeze, yeah, instinct,
Indra Klavins (05:20):
right? Yes, just like driving. I mean, I'm just
going back to my days of earlydays of driving. But, you know,
the question is, for so manypeople, when they're told in
their performance review, like,you've got to work on your soft
skills, like, Okay, I think thatthere are, there is some work
you alluded to it earlier, isyou need to understand, like,
what does soft skills mean inthis situation, you know, to the
(05:42):
person who's giving me thisfeedback, right? Maybe that's
one element of it. There mightbe an assessment of, like, what
soft skills do I see that Imight want to emulate? You know,
they're understanding what youwant to do, but then you need to
start practicing them like,there is no gym for soft skills.
It's not like and go to atrainer and be like, let's
practice soft skills like you'reyou can do so you can only do so
(06:04):
much with a career coach. That'snot, it's not, it's not the
reality. So I think that one ofthe things that both you and I
advocate for is, start small.Start small. Yeah, start small.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:18):
You know, find opportunities, like, low stakes
opportunities, right? Like, it'sfunny you say that the soft
skills feedback usually comes ina high stakes situation. Cool,
start small and start in a lowstakes situation. To start
practicing, right? Ask yourmanager, or ask anybody, hey,
you know, mind if I facilitatethis meeting today? Like, yeah,
(06:39):
you know, send out the agenda,run the meeting, you know, set
the tone, facilitate, redirectquestions, just all of those
micro moments of being able topractice the soft skills.
Indra Klavins (06:53):
Yeah, and I think my favorite like low stakes.
Example of that is like therecurring meetings that you
have, like the weekly check in,the daily check in, if your team
does agile, doing the daily, thedaily huddle, and leading that,
because these are people youknow and hopefully trust you,
and you trust them, and you'llbe able to lead the
conversation, and you'll be ableto get feedback from them
(07:15):
afterwards. They'll feel theywill support you in that
attempt, because you're a team.But then you can go to them,
like, Hey, how was that? Like,what can I do better next time?
And then, like, lather, rinse,repeat, lather, rinse, repeat,
right?
Amanda Jane Lee (07:28):
And a lot of it is, you know, with the meetings
situation, a lot of it, I think,is just being prepared, right?
Just being able to, you know,clearly communicate the purpose
of the meeting, and, like, whatthe agenda of the meeting is,
and be able to, like, keepthings on track and as
conversations happen, being ableto redirect, like, you know,
(07:51):
your example of someone comingat you, like, really, really
strong. Like, being able to takethat and deflect a bit. Jiu
Indra Klavins (08:00):
Jitsu. It. Jiu Jitsu, it, my friend Enrique
calls it, yes, but I think, Ithink that the thing is also
like workplace examples are theones that'll come to mind for
everyone first. You can practicethis in your everyday life,
because soft skills help youeverywhere. Like this. Was this
example that I was sharing fromearlier. Was not in my work
(08:21):
life. It was in my personallife. And you know, you'll find
them, whether it's, you know, ona checkout line that's just a
little unwieldy. Like, can youhelp to get that line? Like, Hey
folks, you know, like, just saysomething. Or, you know, I live
in New York, on the subway whensomebody is acting a little bit
seriously, sometimes it justrequires and you got to be
careful, and you got to beskillful about this, but like,
(08:43):
just saying the right thing atthe right time, or giving the
right look to the person acrossthe way from you, so that they
can understand, like, those arealso soft skills,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:51):
right? Yeah, as you were saying that I'm like
coffee shop, like, just youreveryday coffee shop experience,
right? You're in line. You're inline with a bunch of under
caffeinated people who may ormay not be grumpy, right? Like,
something could happen where,you know, you can deflect a
little bit, or, like, stand upfor your barista,
Indra Klavins (09:13):
or something so simple, I love that coffee shop
example, like, Whatever,whatever. Almost every coffee
shop that I've been at during,like, rush hour that, that on
the way to work situation, thereis this like, impenetrable
fortress of people around thepickup line, right? And your
drink comes out. How do youpenetrate that, that force field
(09:35):
that's been it feels, you feellike you're playing Red Rover,
like you're trying to breakthrough this thing. How do you
say hey guys, that's my thing,or hey, by the way, oh no, no,
that's mine. Like, that's mydrink, not yours. Like, that's a
soft skill.
Amanda Jane Lee (09:46):
Actually, I'm Amanda. Like, that's, that's my
drink. Amanda was an Americano.Like, that's mine, right?
Indra Klavins (09:52):
Because, like, people, they're, like, you said,
they're happens, leave. They'reon autopilot. A lot of us are on
autopilot. There's so much to dothese days, right? But. Like,
those are really great littlemicro moments, and you're never
gonna see those people again. SoI can't imagine a lower stake
situation, you know, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:08):
actually, you're right. I think that's an
even lower stake situation thanyour team meeting with, you
know, your same team withpsychological safety and support
and all of that, I thinkpracticing with a bunch of
strangers, yeah, that you'llnever see again. Never
Indra Klavins (10:25):
see again. Yeah, pick up your things that you
know, like you'll pick up yourlittle tricks that work for you.
Pick up your little tricks thatyou know. How do you navigate
the world a little bit moregracefully?
Amanda Jane Lee (10:35):
Or, like your taxi driver, or you're a Lyft
driver, right? Just like alittle conversation,
Indra Klavins (10:42):
a little conversation, a little
conversation. Or, you know,you're both go to grab something
at the same time in thedepartment store, like, you
know, like, oh, you know, justyou can find those.
Amanda Jane Lee (10:52):
It's conflict. It's conflict. But, like, super
low stakes, conflict, low
Indra Klavins (10:55):
stakes comp, I think, I think that. But that
goes back to the point softskills are usually the most
necessary when the stakes startto spike, even if their
situation and contextual at thatmoment, yeah? So growing into
something bigger, right? Youknow? So we talked about like
the real world. I think the realworld is the best when we're
talking about, like, workplacesoft skills. The real world is
(11:15):
good for those, those entrylevels, small, micro tests of
different tools, techniques.Turns a phrase, whatever it
might be, but growing intobigger things. What comes to
mind when you think of like theplaces that you've used in your
career you've seen other peopleuse in, in in upping their soft
skills in a situation, I thinkwhat
Amanda Jane Lee (11:36):
comes to mind is like a company off site or a
team off site, where everyone isin this big conference room and
like, there's presentations, andthe stakes feel a little higher
because you are standing infront of an audience and having
to practice a presentation, orjust like, give a talk on
(11:59):
something, or demo something, orit just feels more high stakes
when you're in the spotlightlike that, 100%
Indra Klavins (12:06):
and in that scenario, I think there's a
whole bunch of different waysyou can practice your scoff
skills, even if you're notscoffed skills, soft skills,
even if you're not you knowgoing to be the person on stage,
like making sure that everyoneknows where to sit, where to go,
how to get there. Like, we oftenthink of those things. And I, I
(12:27):
assume humans think of thesethings this way. I don't always.
Some humans do. I don't. Butlike, you know, oh, that's,
that's admins job to take careof, or that's the project
manager's job to take care of,or that's that person's job to
take care of, like making surepeople know where to go, or what
the schedule is, or what like,helping people out in those
scenarios is an exercise of softskills, or seeking that out and
(12:50):
finding that in a way that won'tdrive the person who is tasked
with making sure everyone knowswhere to go. Like, Hey, by the
way, I know you're having like,this is a bonkers day. Last
thing that you need to knowabout, but I just need, I need
this one little thing, becauseI'm going to help you out in
this other way, right? Likeintercepting them, or getting
the information that you needfrom them while their stakes are
high, while they're exercisingtheir soft skills and are in
(13:12):
their craft. Like, that'sanother like in those larger
forums that comes to mind as aplace to exercise those things.
Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:19):
for sure. And as you were going through that
example, I've, I've thoughtabout, you know, my own
experience, and I'm actually,like, I've honed the skill of
being able to see the confusedlooks on people's faces. Ah,
that's the soft skill, yeah. Andthat's the soft skill, right?
Like, if we're in, you know,going back to the the auditorium
(13:41):
example, of like, we're all herein a big auditorium, or a big
conference room for this offsite, and like, people don't
know where to sit, like, I'mpretty good at noticing that
someone looks confused, or likethere's a little there's chaos,
like, about to brew, becausethere's there's confusion,
right? And I'll step in and belike, Oh, hey, if you're looking
(14:02):
for this table, like it's overthere, or like, do you know? Do
you want to know where thecoffee is? Like, it's down the
hall this way? Yeah.
Indra Klavins (14:11):
And as you're talking, I'm sitting here
thinking there are probablypeople listening who are really
excellent at their soft skills.They're very excellent at being
glue. They're really excellentat a lot of things, if you have
over developed soft skills, andyou're in that kind of
environment, and no one isexercising their soft skills
like you got to find the rightscenario, but you might be the
one. You might take that momentto start writing very important
(14:33):
notes in your notebook andturning that off and ignoring
that right because you will havepeople who are over flexed on
the soft skills side of things.So I just want to introduce that
one little thing for some folkswho are like, but I already do
that and I'm exhausted. Don'tworry. See you. See you. This
episode is not necessarily foryou. It might be the thing that
you forward to your colleagues,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:53):
but yeah, see you. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's
appropriate that you're wearingyour Don't make me regret. Try.
To be helpful shirt today.
Indra Klavins (15:02):
Darn it. Darn it. I did it on purpose. I did it on
purpose. And I think thatthat's, you know, it's just
finding the ways to step up. ButI like that. I like the example
that you said about just likewatching a room, watching a room
and reading a room, likeunderstanding the soft skills,
or non soft skills that are inplay if you're not ready to
engage yet. I think it's really,really useful.
Amanda Jane Lee (15:24):
Yeah, just observe, right? Just like any
other skills, learn by observingfirst. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (15:30):
and the one thing that I will that I think the
important thing to call out foreveryone is that, just like with
any other skill, you're gonnafail. You're gonna fail, you're
gonna get it wrong, you're gonnahave a bad meeting. You're gonna
you're gonna use the wrong wordat the wrong time. Yeah, I know
(15:52):
that this is, you know, it's acliche. It's a bit of a business
cliche around like fail, likethey're all around the failures.
There's a whole bunch of them,but know that it's going to
happen, know that it's normal,know that it's part of the
growing process. And like, whatdo I it's not my it's not my
phrase. I'll can't remember whoit's by, but somebody once said,
(16:14):
If you don't look back at yourlife and cringe a little, you're
not growing right? So like, evenwith the soft skills, if you're
not extra, if you're not lookingback at your soft skills, like,
Oh, I didn't do that so well,you're not growing. It's a sign
of growth when you can, when youcan have that failure in your
past, in the rear view mirror.Oh, totally. And here's
Amanda Jane Lee (16:33):
a secret, like, some of your failures, people
might not even notice.
Indra Klavins (16:39):
They don't notice. A lot of them don't
notice, gosh, I was, I have onewhere I had a meeting, and,
like, the stakes were high. Wewere behind on deadline. I was
leading a design team at thetime, and like, I just, I, in my
mind, I went off, I went off. Iwas like, This is what has to
happen. This is how it's goingto be. And I got really
(17:02):
assertive, and I felt myadrenaline rising, and left the
meeting, and I turned to one ofthe people who later, after I'd
had a moment to walk it off,because I knew that I didn't
want to engage with others whilemy adrenaline was quite so high,
came back, and I was like, hey,hey friend. I'm so sorry that I
got like. I felt like I flew offthe handle there. And they said,
(17:23):
No, you didn't fly off thehandle. You were perfectly fine.
We were really behind schedule,and we needed, we we needed the
kick in the pants. I'm like, oh,okay, cool, cool.
Amanda Jane Lee (17:32):
Yeah. I mean, they're similarly like, there
are plenty of times where, youknow, I was presenting something
in a meeting, or, you know,running a meeting, and it, it
was just, like a reallyimportant thing, and I had to, I
felt that I had to nail it,yeah, and usually when I get
nervous, much like many, manypeople, I talked really fast, or
(17:55):
I thought I talked really fast,and I'm just like crap, like I I
blew it right. Like, I was goingtoo fast. I was going to, like,
hurried. Did people even hearme? Like, did people digest
like, that? That was just adisaster. Yeah, and I would, I
would ask for feedback, or justlike, kind of vent to someone I
(18:16):
trusted. I'm like, Man, Itotally blew that meeting. Like,
hopefully it's so it's okay,like, maybe I have to redo it
or, like, send notes after,like, whatever the case may be.
And many times they were like,What are you talking about? I
thought that was great. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (18:32):
it's exactly it. We're our own harshest critics.
We're our own harshest critics.And as I'm thinking, like, one
of the best teaching tools thatI've found is watching or
learning from people who aremasters in this, right, masters
in the soft skills, masters inin a lot of these things. And
(18:53):
one of the one of the placeswhere I find that I learn the
most is often like listening tointerviews on podcasts or on
chat shows or whatever it mightbe, the way that that host
navigates the dynamics of theconversation. I think a person
who does it exceptionally wellis Trevor Noah, and I love his
(19:15):
what now podcast, but yeah, Idon't know if you agreed. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, great. That's
Amanda Jane Lee (19:21):
a good one. Yeah, I do the same thing. Like,
I love watching or listening tocontent that is in the form of
an interview is in the form of aconversation. Yeah. I find it to
be very engaging, and just very,like you said, very interesting
hearing the dynamics between,you know, the interviewer and
(19:41):
the guest, yeah, becausethere's, there's just so many
variables when you interviewdifferent people, right? Like
there, there's, like, sometimesan energy mismatch at first,
right? And then, like you, yousee the most. Most skilled
(20:01):
people be able to navigate that,and, yes, ask the right
questions or engage their theirguests in the right way, and,
like, get everyone on the samepage.
Indra Klavins (20:12):
Yeah, I just, I'm thinking of Graham Norton. I
wish I remember which episode itwas. But like, the way that he
or what the what the topicexactly was, or what he said he
was one of the people on his redsofa was Taylor Swift. And
Graham said something, and whathe said was a little bit dated
(20:33):
in his perspective. And Taylorcalled him out, and he was like,
oh, you know what, you're right,right, you're right. And they
went into and they actuallywound up having an even richer
conversation, you know, becauseof it, like just watching, or
anytime a clip goes viral fromany sort of, like news show. I
mean, heaven knows, in thisclimate, there's plenty of
(20:54):
spicy, spicy meaning, like, justlike, full of, full full of,
full of, I don't know, friction,full of friction conversations
on news shows or on talk showsor whatever. If you watch them
and start dissecting, you cansee people's strength in soft
skills or lack of soft skills.It's really, really interesting.
Amanda Jane Lee (21:15):
Yeah, and that's an interesting thing that
you bring up, because it's notjust, it's not just learning
from the good examples. Yes,it's, it's seeing the not so
great examples and making amental note of just like, Oh, I
see what that person did therethat was really awkward, really
cringe. Like, okay, mental note.Let's try not to do that
Indra Klavins (21:38):
exactly. I think that other people who do a
really good job. If I'm thinkingof like another it's like Adam
Grant. Adam Grant's got a greatpodcast. He gets into a lot of
work life, such as his name.It's called work life. He gets
into a lot of work life topics.And that is really interesting
(21:58):
too, because the the way that henavigates the world and the way
that he talks about things, Ifind it really, really
interesting and really, reallyuseful. And I'd say like, as far
as like, literal resources, ifyou are somebody who likes to
study, I think that BreneBrown's got some really good
stuff. I think dare to lead isprobably it's a great
compilation, in my mind. I don'tknow if that was her intention,
(22:20):
but it pulled together a lot ofthe content or the themes in our
earlier books into one thing,into into one volume. And I
found, find that it's just areally great resource for lots
of different types of softskills, because leaders, you
don't need to be a people manageto be a leader, just to be clear
and make sure that everyone isclear on that. I think most of
(22:40):
us are these days, but noteveryone knows that. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:43):
agreed on that resource. I think dare to lead
might be the only Brene Brownbook I've read, cover to cover.
And I think I might have askedyou about this of just like,
which one should I read first?And you, yeah,
Indra Klavins (22:58):
yeah, I've had to. I mean, I started with
daring greatly, which is on myshelf, but it's this one I think
dare to lead is the is it justpulls together a lot of the
stuff all into one. So I thinkit's just a really great, you
know, or great, and without,like, rehashing
Amanda Jane Lee (23:12):
too much of her previous work, right? Hey, in
the in, in daring greatly, likeI referenced this term. And just
just a refresher here. This iswhat this means. And, like, Let
me tie it all together with thepoint I'm trying to make now.
Yeah,
Indra Klavins (23:28):
and I think that, just like at the end of the day,
I think that we've demonstratedthe fact, or hopefully we've
demonstrated the fact that, youknow, soft skills are complex.
They require deliberate effort.You got to start small. You got
to try to do a little somethingto train them on the regular,
because you might lose them, oryou'll forget them. They'll just
wind up in the recesses of yourbrain. And you're like, Oh, I
can't, I can't draw on that whenI need to, and you need to work
(23:51):
on that pretty much every singleday. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:54):
it's one of those things where I think you
you learn by doing. You
Indra Klavins (23:58):
learn by doing. It's a learn by doing. And
there's, there's, there's no,there's no way around that.
Amanda Jane Lee (24:04):
Yeah, you can, you can read all the books, you
can watch all the videos, youcan watch all the TED Talks. But
it's practice, practice,practice.
Indra Klavins (24:12):
Yes, interacting with messy humans is necessary.
Thanks so much for theconversation. Amanda, I hope
that everyone listening joins usnext time when we cover another
topic from the messy middle,bye, bye. If today's episode hit
home or just made you laugh, youmight love our merch. We've got
(24:33):
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Indra. I'm Indra,
Unknown (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I am good. How are
you Indra? I'm good. I'm good.Today we're going to talk about
soft skills, just something thatI feel like we exercise or talk
about in some way, shape or formon pretty much every episode
that we have. But we'll dig intoit a little bit more deeply
(00:32):
before we dig into the topicitself. Let me read off the
definition. Soft skills are thepersonal attributes and
interpersonal abilities thatenable individuals to interact
effectively with others,collaborate in teams and
navigate various professionaland social situations. My
experience the term usuallyshows up when the stakes are the
highest. It's when there'sconflict, when there's a tough
(00:54):
deadline, when it's performancereviews, it's all these high
stakes situations. Is when theterm shows up the most. It's
there all the time, but whensomebody says, Oh, you need to
work on your soft skills, alwayswhen it's the highest.
Amanda Jane Lee (01:11):
Yeah, agreed. And like, I've seen it a lot in
job descriptions, and it it's avery it can be a very vague
term, right? I know you justread off the definition, but it
can be very vague, and itapplies to it has different
applications and definitionsdepending on what that company
or that role is looking for. Butsoft skills, soft skills is such
(01:34):
a blanket term.
Indra Klavins (01:35):
It's a huge blanket term, and it can be so
contextual, I mean, and thereal, the reality of it is that
there are very few trainings onthese things. Like there
sometimes there's training onEQ, which is emotional
intelligence or communication orbut, you know, or sometimes
there's, there's some thingsthat, like touch on it, but like
(01:56):
true training on soft skills, Idon't think I've seen many, if
any, but there are so many waysyou can help to cultivate that,
and there's so many resourcesthat are may not be labeled as
soft skills, that, yeah, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:10):
yeah. Or the opposite, right? Like, I've seen
a lot of YouTube videos or TEDtalks that are labeled soft
skills, but it's when you watchthe video. It's a very like,
narrow piece of what soft skillsare,
Indra Klavins (02:23):
yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean, I mean, we can talk
about soft skills. Soft skillstoday I'm wearing my Don't make
me regret trying to be helpfulsweatshirt, which was a
demonstration of soft skills inthe form of me getting my fan my
team sweatshirts, because wewere just being silly, and we
needed a silly way to diffusesituations, which is a form of a
soft skill. But, um, so thequestion that really shows up
(02:49):
when people talk about softskills is, are they innate? Are
we born with them, or is itsomething that we can learn? I
mean, I know that you have someperspectives on it. I've got
perspectives on it, yeah, yeah,um,
Amanda Jane Lee (03:01):
I think it's mostly something that you learn,
much like, I don't know, arethey called hard skills? What's
the opposite? Right? Like, hardskills,
Indra Klavins (03:11):
I know how to code this thing in this way.
That's a hard skill I canmention. Right? Yeah, right.
Like,
Amanda Jane Lee (03:15):
much like hard skills, it's something that you
learn and you practice, andthat's how you get better. I
think there are, you know, thereis a bit of the innate, like
aptitude for them. But I don'tthink you're just born with the
ability to to have good stuff,soft skills. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (03:35):
I think you're right. Think that some people
have more of a natural tendencytowards them, or are born with a
temperament that lends itselfmore to soft skills, and some
have challenges in that area,but everybody can learn them. I
think everybody can learn them,but it takes in whether you're
born with them or you're notborn with the aptitude. The
(03:57):
reality is you have to use them,practice them, just like, I
think that when you know you,you're the one who brought it up
in an earlier conversation youand I had, it's like, going to
the gym, like, you've got toexercise those muscles of soft
skills all the time. Or else youlose them, you lose them, or you
don't use them as effectively asas you would like to, as you
would like to, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (04:17):
It becomes a muscle memory. Or, like it
becomes second nature, right?Like, if you practice them
enough, it becomes secondnature, and then you're able to,
you know, just be able to run ameeting effectively, like, like
it's, you know, like you coulddo in your sleep.
Indra Klavins (04:33):
And that's, and that's where it kind of matters
the most, because, like, it is,because, like, I said, it shows
up, or it's the most front ofmind when the stakes are the
highest. Like, I was in aconversation the other day, and
this guy, I won't go intoexactly, but he came at me with
this very aggressive termanalogy. And I was just like,
whoa, whoa, whoa. I came back. Iredressed this, like I addressed
(04:58):
the situation. I pivoted back tomy point of. I was saying you
can't practice for that stuff.But because I'd gone to the
proverbial gym so much, I knewhow I had a skill set to draw
from. So you just
Amanda Jane Lee (05:09):
right, you you practice those skills, and then
you just knew how to navigatethat situation without, you
know, your fight or flight orfreeze, yeah, instinct,
Indra Klavins (05:20):
right? Yes, just like driving. I mean, I'm just
going back to my days of earlydays of driving. But, you know,
the question is, for so manypeople, when they're told in
their performance review, like,you've got to work on your soft
skills, like, Okay, I think thatthere are, there is some work
you alluded to it earlier, isyou need to understand, like,
what does soft skills mean inthis situation, you know, to the
(05:42):
person who's giving me thisfeedback, right? Maybe that's
one element of it. There mightbe an assessment of, like, what
soft skills do I see that Imight want to emulate? You know,
they're understanding what youwant to do, but then you need to
start practicing them like,there is no gym for soft skills.
It's not like and go to atrainer and be like, let's
practice soft skills like you'reyou can do so you can only do so
(06:04):
much with a career coach. That'snot, it's not, it's not the
reality. So I think that one ofthe things that both you and I
advocate for is, start small.Start small. Yeah, start small.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:18):
You know, find opportunities, like, low stakes
opportunities, right? Like, it'sfunny you say that the soft
skills feedback usually comes ina high stakes situation. Cool,
start small and start in a lowstakes situation. To start
practicing, right? Ask yourmanager, or ask anybody, hey,
you know, mind if I facilitatethis meeting today? Like, yeah,
(06:39):
you know, send out the agenda,run the meeting, you know, set
the tone, facilitate, redirectquestions, just all of those
micro moments of being able topractice the soft skills.
Indra Klavins (06:53):
Yeah, and I think my favorite like low stakes.
Example of that is like therecurring meetings that you
have, like the weekly check in,the daily check in, if your team
does agile, doing the daily, thedaily huddle, and leading that,
because these are people youknow and hopefully trust you,
and you trust them, and you'llbe able to lead the
conversation, and you'll be ableto get feedback from them
(07:15):
afterwards. They'll feel theywill support you in that
attempt, because you're a team.But then you can go to them,
like, Hey, how was that? Like,what can I do better next time?
And then, like, lather, rinse,repeat, lather, rinse, repeat,
right?
Amanda Jane Lee (07:28):
And a lot of it is, you know, with the meetings
situation, a lot of it, I think,is just being prepared, right?
Just being able to, you know,clearly communicate the purpose
of the meeting, and, like, whatthe agenda of the meeting is,
and be able to, like, keepthings on track and as
conversations happen, being ableto redirect, like, you know,
(07:51):
your example of someone comingat you, like, really, really
strong. Like, being able to takethat and deflect a bit. Jiu
Indra Klavins (08:00):
Jitsu. It. Jiu Jitsu, it, my friend Enrique
calls it, yes, but I think, Ithink that the thing is also
like workplace examples are theones that'll come to mind for
everyone first. You can practicethis in your everyday life,
because soft skills help youeverywhere. Like this. Was this
example that I was sharing fromearlier. Was not in my work
(08:21):
life. It was in my personallife. And you know, you'll find
them, whether it's, you know, ona checkout line that's just a
little unwieldy. Like, can youhelp to get that line? Like, Hey
folks, you know, like, just saysomething. Or, you know, I live
in New York, on the subway whensomebody is acting a little bit
seriously, sometimes it justrequires and you got to be
careful, and you got to beskillful about this, but like,
(08:43):
just saying the right thing atthe right time, or giving the
right look to the person acrossthe way from you, so that they
can understand, like, those arealso soft skills,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:51):
right? Yeah, as you were saying that I'm like
coffee shop, like, just youreveryday coffee shop experience,
right? You're in line. You're inline with a bunch of under
caffeinated people who may ormay not be grumpy, right? Like,
something could happen where,you know, you can deflect a
little bit, or, like, stand upfor your barista,
Indra Klavins (09:13):
or something so simple, I love that coffee shop
example, like, Whatever,whatever. Almost every coffee
shop that I've been at during,like, rush hour that, that on
the way to work situation, thereis this like, impenetrable
fortress of people around thepickup line, right? And your
drink comes out. How do youpenetrate that, that force field
(09:35):
that's been it feels, you feellike you're playing Red Rover,
like you're trying to breakthrough this thing. How do you
say hey guys, that's my thing,or hey, by the way, oh no, no,
that's mine. Like, that's mydrink, not yours. Like, that's a
soft skill.
Amanda Jane Lee (09:46):
Actually, I'm Amanda. Like, that's, that's my
drink. Amanda was an Americano.Like, that's mine, right?
Indra Klavins (09:52):
Because, like, people, they're, like, you said,
they're happens, leave. They'reon autopilot. A lot of us are on
autopilot. There's so much to dothese days, right? But. Like,
those are really great littlemicro moments, and you're never
gonna see those people again. SoI can't imagine a lower stake
situation, you know, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:08):
actually, you're right. I think that's an
even lower stake situation thanyour team meeting with, you
know, your same team withpsychological safety and support
and all of that, I thinkpracticing with a bunch of
strangers, yeah, that you'llnever see again. Never
Indra Klavins (10:25):
see again. Yeah, pick up your things that you
know, like you'll pick up yourlittle tricks that work for you.
Pick up your little tricks thatyou know. How do you navigate
the world a little bit moregracefully?
Amanda Jane Lee (10:35):
Or, like your taxi driver, or you're a Lyft
driver, right? Just like alittle conversation,
Indra Klavins (10:42):
a little conversation, a little
conversation. Or, you know,you're both go to grab something
at the same time in thedepartment store, like, you
know, like, oh, you know, justyou can find those.
Amanda Jane Lee (10:52):
It's conflict. It's conflict. But, like, super
low stakes, conflict, low
Indra Klavins (10:55):
stakes comp, I think, I think that. But that
goes back to the point softskills are usually the most
necessary when the stakes startto spike, even if their
situation and contextual at thatmoment, yeah? So growing into
something bigger, right? Youknow? So we talked about like
the real world. I think the realworld is the best when we're
talking about, like, workplacesoft skills. The real world is
(11:15):
good for those, those entrylevels, small, micro tests of
different tools, techniques.Turns a phrase, whatever it
might be, but growing intobigger things. What comes to
mind when you think of like theplaces that you've used in your
career you've seen other peopleuse in, in in upping their soft
skills in a situation, I thinkwhat
Amanda Jane Lee (11:36):
comes to mind is like a company off site or a
team off site, where everyone isin this big conference room and
like, there's presentations, andthe stakes feel a little higher
because you are standing infront of an audience and having
to practice a presentation, orjust like, give a talk on
(11:59):
something, or demo something, orit just feels more high stakes
when you're in the spotlightlike that, 100%
Indra Klavins (12:06):
and in that scenario, I think there's a
whole bunch of different waysyou can practice your scoff
skills, even if you're notscoffed skills, soft skills,
even if you're not you knowgoing to be the person on stage,
like making sure that everyoneknows where to sit, where to go,
how to get there. Like, we oftenthink of those things. And I, I
(12:27):
assume humans think of thesethings this way. I don't always.
Some humans do. I don't. Butlike, you know, oh, that's,
that's admins job to take careof, or that's the project
manager's job to take care of,or that's that person's job to
take care of, like making surepeople know where to go, or what
the schedule is, or what like,helping people out in those
scenarios is an exercise of softskills, or seeking that out and
(12:50):
finding that in a way that won'tdrive the person who is tasked
with making sure everyone knowswhere to go. Like, Hey, by the
way, I know you're having like,this is a bonkers day. Last
thing that you need to knowabout, but I just need, I need
this one little thing, becauseI'm going to help you out in
this other way, right? Likeintercepting them, or getting
the information that you needfrom them while their stakes are
high, while they're exercisingtheir soft skills and are in
(13:12):
their craft. Like, that'sanother like in those larger
forums that comes to mind as aplace to exercise those things.
Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (13:19):
for sure. And as you were going through that
example, I've, I've thoughtabout, you know, my own
experience, and I'm actually,like, I've honed the skill of
being able to see the confusedlooks on people's faces. Ah,
that's the soft skill, yeah. Andthat's the soft skill, right?
Like, if we're in, you know,going back to the the auditorium
(13:41):
example, of like, we're all herein a big auditorium, or a big
conference room for this offsite, and like, people don't
know where to sit, like, I'mpretty good at noticing that
someone looks confused, or likethere's a little there's chaos,
like, about to brew, becausethere's there's confusion,
right? And I'll step in and belike, Oh, hey, if you're looking
(14:02):
for this table, like it's overthere, or like, do you know? Do
you want to know where thecoffee is? Like, it's down the
hall this way? Yeah.
Indra Klavins (14:11):
And as you're talking, I'm sitting here
thinking there are probablypeople listening who are really
excellent at their soft skills.They're very excellent at being
glue. They're really excellentat a lot of things, if you have
over developed soft skills, andyou're in that kind of
environment, and no one isexercising their soft skills
like you got to find the rightscenario, but you might be the
one. You might take that momentto start writing very important
(14:33):
notes in your notebook andturning that off and ignoring
that right because you will havepeople who are over flexed on
the soft skills side of things.So I just want to introduce that
one little thing for some folkswho are like, but I already do
that and I'm exhausted. Don'tworry. See you. See you. This
episode is not necessarily foryou. It might be the thing that
you forward to your colleagues,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:53):
but yeah, see you. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's
appropriate that you're wearingyour Don't make me regret. Try.
To be helpful shirt today.
Indra Klavins (15:02):
Darn it. Darn it. I did it on purpose. I did it on
purpose. And I think thatthat's, you know, it's just
finding the ways to step up. ButI like that. I like the example
that you said about just likewatching a room, watching a room
and reading a room, likeunderstanding the soft skills,
or non soft skills that are inplay if you're not ready to
engage yet. I think it's really,really useful.
Amanda Jane Lee (15:24):
Yeah, just observe, right? Just like any
other skills, learn by observingfirst. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (15:30):
and the one thing that I will that I think the
important thing to call out foreveryone is that, just like with
any other skill, you're gonnafail. You're gonna fail, you're
gonna get it wrong, you're gonnahave a bad meeting. You're gonna
you're gonna use the wrong wordat the wrong time. Yeah, I know
(15:52):
that this is, you know, it's acliche. It's a bit of a business
cliche around like fail, likethey're all around the failures.
There's a whole bunch of them,but know that it's going to
happen, know that it's normal,know that it's part of the
growing process. And like, whatdo I it's not my it's not my
phrase. I'll can't remember whoit's by, but somebody once said,
(16:14):
If you don't look back at yourlife and cringe a little, you're
not growing right? So like, evenwith the soft skills, if you're
not extra, if you're not lookingback at your soft skills, like,
Oh, I didn't do that so well,you're not growing. It's a sign
of growth when you can, when youcan have that failure in your
past, in the rear view mirror.Oh, totally. And here's
Amanda Jane Lee (16:33):
a secret, like, some of your failures, people
might not even notice.
Indra Klavins (16:39):
They don't notice. A lot of them don't
notice, gosh, I was, I have onewhere I had a meeting, and,
like, the stakes were high. Wewere behind on deadline. I was
leading a design team at thetime, and like, I just, I, in my
mind, I went off, I went off. Iwas like, This is what has to
happen. This is how it's goingto be. And I got really
(17:02):
assertive, and I felt myadrenaline rising, and left the
meeting, and I turned to one ofthe people who later, after I'd
had a moment to walk it off,because I knew that I didn't
want to engage with others whilemy adrenaline was quite so high,
came back, and I was like, hey,hey friend. I'm so sorry that I
got like. I felt like I flew offthe handle there. And they said,
(17:23):
No, you didn't fly off thehandle. You were perfectly fine.
We were really behind schedule,and we needed, we we needed the
kick in the pants. I'm like, oh,okay, cool, cool.
Amanda Jane Lee (17:32):
Yeah. I mean, they're similarly like, there
are plenty of times where, youknow, I was presenting something
in a meeting, or, you know,running a meeting, and it, it
was just, like a reallyimportant thing, and I had to, I
felt that I had to nail it,yeah, and usually when I get
nervous, much like many, manypeople, I talked really fast, or
(17:55):
I thought I talked really fast,and I'm just like crap, like I I
blew it right. Like, I was goingtoo fast. I was going to, like,
hurried. Did people even hearme? Like, did people digest
like, that? That was just adisaster. Yeah, and I would, I
would ask for feedback, or justlike, kind of vent to someone I
(18:16):
trusted. I'm like, Man, Itotally blew that meeting. Like,
hopefully it's so it's okay,like, maybe I have to redo it
or, like, send notes after,like, whatever the case may be.
And many times they were like,What are you talking about? I
thought that was great. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (18:32):
it's exactly it. We're our own harshest critics.
We're our own harshest critics.And as I'm thinking, like, one
of the best teaching tools thatI've found is watching or
learning from people who aremasters in this, right, masters
in the soft skills, masters inin a lot of these things. And
(18:53):
one of the one of the placeswhere I find that I learn the
most is often like listening tointerviews on podcasts or on
chat shows or whatever it mightbe, the way that that host
navigates the dynamics of theconversation. I think a person
who does it exceptionally wellis Trevor Noah, and I love his
(19:15):
what now podcast, but yeah, Idon't know if you agreed. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, great. That's
Amanda Jane Lee (19:21):
a good one. Yeah, I do the same thing. Like,
I love watching or listening tocontent that is in the form of
an interview is in the form of aconversation. Yeah. I find it to
be very engaging, and just very,like you said, very interesting
hearing the dynamics between,you know, the interviewer and
(19:41):
the guest, yeah, becausethere's, there's just so many
variables when you interviewdifferent people, right? Like
there, there's, like, sometimesan energy mismatch at first,
right? And then, like you, yousee the most. Most skilled
(20:01):
people be able to navigate that,and, yes, ask the right
questions or engage their theirguests in the right way, and,
like, get everyone on the samepage.
Indra Klavins (20:12):
Yeah, I just, I'm thinking of Graham Norton. I
wish I remember which episode itwas. But like, the way that he
or what the what the topicexactly was, or what he said he
was one of the people on his redsofa was Taylor Swift. And
Graham said something, and whathe said was a little bit dated
(20:33):
in his perspective. And Taylorcalled him out, and he was like,
oh, you know what, you're right,right, you're right. And they
went into and they actuallywound up having an even richer
conversation, you know, becauseof it, like just watching, or
anytime a clip goes viral fromany sort of, like news show. I
mean, heaven knows, in thisclimate, there's plenty of
(20:54):
spicy, spicy meaning, like, justlike, full of, full full of,
full of, I don't know, friction,full of friction conversations
on news shows or on talk showsor whatever. If you watch them
and start dissecting, you cansee people's strength in soft
skills or lack of soft skills.It's really, really interesting.
Amanda Jane Lee (21:15):
Yeah, and that's an interesting thing that
you bring up, because it's notjust, it's not just learning
from the good examples. Yes,it's, it's seeing the not so
great examples and making amental note of just like, Oh, I
see what that person did therethat was really awkward, really
cringe. Like, okay, mental note.Let's try not to do that
Indra Klavins (21:38):
exactly. I think that other people who do a
really good job. If I'm thinkingof like another it's like Adam
Grant. Adam Grant's got a greatpodcast. He gets into a lot of
work life, such as his name.It's called work life. He gets
into a lot of work life topics.And that is really interesting
(21:58):
too, because the the way that henavigates the world and the way
that he talks about things, Ifind it really, really
interesting and really, reallyuseful. And I'd say like, as far
as like, literal resources, ifyou are somebody who likes to
study, I think that BreneBrown's got some really good
stuff. I think dare to lead isprobably it's a great
compilation, in my mind. I don'tknow if that was her intention,
(22:20):
but it pulled together a lot ofthe content or the themes in our
earlier books into one thing,into into one volume. And I
found, find that it's just areally great resource for lots
of different types of softskills, because leaders, you
don't need to be a people manageto be a leader, just to be clear
and make sure that everyone isclear on that. I think most of
(22:40):
us are these days, but noteveryone knows that. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:43):
agreed on that resource. I think dare to lead
might be the only Brene Brownbook I've read, cover to cover.
And I think I might have askedyou about this of just like,
which one should I read first?And you, yeah,
Indra Klavins (22:58):
yeah, I've had to. I mean, I started with
daring greatly, which is on myshelf, but it's this one I think
dare to lead is the is it justpulls together a lot of the
stuff all into one. So I thinkit's just a really great, you
know, or great, and without,like, rehashing
Amanda Jane Lee (23:12):
too much of her previous work, right? Hey, in
the in, in daring greatly, likeI referenced this term. And just
just a refresher here. This iswhat this means. And, like, Let
me tie it all together with thepoint I'm trying to make now.
Yeah,
Indra Klavins (23:28):
and I think that, just like at the end of the day,
I think that we've demonstratedthe fact, or hopefully we've
demonstrated the fact that, youknow, soft skills are complex.
They require deliberate effort.You got to start small. You got
to try to do a little somethingto train them on the regular,
because you might lose them, oryou'll forget them. They'll just
wind up in the recesses of yourbrain. And you're like, Oh, I
can't, I can't draw on that whenI need to, and you need to work
(23:51):
on that pretty much every singleday. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:54):
it's one of those things where I think you
you learn by doing. You
Indra Klavins (23:58):
learn by doing. It's a learn by doing. And
there's, there's, there's no,there's no way around that.
Amanda Jane Lee (24:04):
Yeah, you can, you can read all the books, you
can watch all the videos, youcan watch all the TED Talks. But
it's practice, practice,practice.
Indra Klavins (24:12):
Yes, interacting with messy humans is necessary.
Thanks so much for theconversation. Amanda, I hope
that everyone listening joins usnext time when we cover another
topic from the messy middle,bye, bye. If today's episode hit
home or just made you laugh, youmight love our merch. We've got
(24:33):
three collections. Don't make meregret and honor the sweatshirt
that started it all. WordsMatter inspired by our most
popular episode and embrace themessy, to celebrate the
beautiful chaos. Head to shop,dot themessymiddle matters.com,
to take a look. Everything'sprint on demand, so be sure to
double check your size beforeordering. But if anything goes
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wrong with the printing, ourvendor will work with you to
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Email us at podcast, at themessy middle matters.com, so
that we can explore the option.Thanks for making the messy
middle matter. You.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.