June 25, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra and Amanda unpack the complex role of titles and credentials in professional life. From HRIS databases that never quite get it right to the very real ways marginalized folks use credentials as armor, this conversation explores how titles are used, misused, and misunderstood.
They explore how titles can signal authority, invite (or block) collaboration, and even become tools of gatekeeping. You'll hear insights on how to navigate the mismatch between internal job classifications and your public-facing identity, the difference between strategic self-representation and rigid hierarchy, and why titles never tell the whole story—but still matter deeply.
Whether you're a people leader trying to make equitable org charts, or someone trying to translate your experience for a new industry, this episode offers clarity, nuance, and maybe even a little permission to rewrite your title on your own terms.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:06):
I'm Indra,
Unknown (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
Hi, Amanda. How are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:17):
I'm good. How are you Indra?
Indra Klavins (00:20):
Good, good. Today we're talking about titles. It's
something that comes up in theworkplace all the time, and I've
long understood how importanttitles can be in the workplace.
But when I think about titles, Ithink about a specific scenario
that came up in 2020 when 37signals released their new email
platform called Hey, as part ofthe rollout, one of their big
(00:42):
fans, you know, they've got ahuge following from the software
engineering industry. One oftheir fans was a software
engineer. It was a person ofcolor reached out to them and
asked, When are they going to beadding email signatures to the
platform? So, DHH, who is theirCTO. And also created the tech
platform, Ruby on theDevelopment Language, Ruby on
Rails responded, saying thatthey don't plan on adding
(01:06):
signatures to the platformbecause they think they're
divisive. This software engineerthen clarified for DHH, how
important including his titleswas in his email signatures as a
person of color in his livedexperience, what he found was
that when he did not include histitle and credentials and
(01:27):
anything that he had in hisemail signature for new emails
and even the reply to emails,what inevitably happened more
often than he would like, isthat the recipient of the email
wouldn't take his word for Whatwas included in the email, and
trust his expertise, they wouldlook out look for validation
from someone else. So like Isaid, I always understood how
(01:49):
important titles were, whetherit's an email signatures in HRIS
systems or on LinkedIn, but thiswas a new dimension for me, and
so I'm really glad we're gettingto dig in on this topic today.
Yeah, for sure. Um, I for all ofthe reasons you listed, titles
are important, right for HR isHR information systems,
(02:10):
platforms, org charts in yourorganization. But also I view
titles as a way to signal toothers, like what your
credentials are and, like, howto it, how to interact with you,
right? Like, so, you know, Hi,I'm Amanda Lee. I am a director
of something, something likethat holds more weight than
(02:32):
like, I'm just Amanda Lee. Like,you don't know me from, from
anything, right? Like, whetherthat's in the workplace, whether
that's you know on this podcast,whether that's in real life,
like you don't know anythingabout me other than my name and
your title,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:49):
is just one of those indicators that you can
you can use to to leverage yourexpertise and like, just to show
others that you have thesecredentials, that you understand
what you're thinking, what whatyou're talking about. You are an
expert in this field, whateverit is, right? Like in on
LinkedIn, you see a lot ofAmanda Lee, comma, PhD, of
(03:13):
whatever, yeah, and, you know, Idon't have a PhD, but, but you
see a lot of that, because,especially on a platform like
LinkedIn, where you have a lotof weak connections, like weak
ties, yeah, people don't knowyou and and your credentials. So
it's a good like headline, yeah,
Indra Klavins (03:33):
it's a, it's a useful labeling system. It's a
loose useful like taxonomy card,cataloging whatever you want to,
you know, whatever frameworkyou're thinking of from from
your background, is a great way.It's a shortcut. It's a great
shortcut, and it's a greatreminder, and it's a great
billboard. And, you know, youtalked a little bit about some
(03:54):
of these things, let's talk alittle bit about, like, the
different types. Like, let'sstart at the beginning. Human
HRIS systems, you said HumanResources Information Systems.
These are the bread and butterof an HR department, your
people, teams, day to daybusiness, right? It's where all
the records are for all theemployees of the organization,
(04:16):
employees and contractors andother things too, are in there,
right? And when I think about itfrom an HR perspective, like I
was, I was at Verizon, Verizon,massive company, massive
company. When there was a effortto standardize titles across the
entire organization, I also wasthere, you know, I've, I've
(04:36):
lived it a couple of times, butthat's one of the more recent
ones. And what they were tryingto do with the normalization of
the titles was to make sure thatthere was a clear mapping
between levels across a wholebunch of different departments,
like you've got linemen, peoplewho are up on poles, putting up
(04:57):
lines that are in that system.You've got. Software engineers
that are in that system, youhave marketing professionals
that are in that you got so manydifferent types of skill sets.
How could they make sure it'snormalizing the titles? Was a
way to make sure that there wasequitable compensation and
benefits and everything acrossthat entire ecosystem. So there
(05:18):
is an important value to havingthose not so sexy, not
necessarily resonant in yourparticular craft and field, but
there is a value. There's a veryimportant use case for why HR
has such very dry and standardtitles in those systems, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:41):
dry is a good word, right? Dry is a good word
to describe these titles,because usually, especially at a
an enterprise organization like1000s and 1000s and 1000s of
people like, the easiest way tonormalize that data is to say
you're a project manager, you'rean engineer, yeah, whether
you're an engineer, whetheryou're a software engineer, or,
(06:03):
like, one of the linemen on, youknow, on the polls, like you're
still an engineer. Like, this isyour this is the title that is
going to map to your level,which maps to your pay, which
maps to
Indra Klavins (06:18):
other benefits, and all of the other things.
Yeah, and you know, wheneverthese exercises happen, what I
tell my team is, this is what'sneeded in the system. You don't
need to put the same exact titlein your email signature,
referencing the story from thebeginning or on LinkedIn, as you
talked about like there aredifferent you can use different
(06:41):
language for these differentscenarios, and there's good
reasons where you don't want tobe a fool about how you make
them different than what's inyour HRIS system, like don't
declare yourself CEO orsomething. But you know there,
there is latitude. There islatitude to make sure that
you're sending the right signalswithin your organization and
(07:02):
your email signature, or to thelarger ecosystem of the business
world on a platform likeLinkedIn, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:10):
I think if it's if it's helpful to clarify what
you do and who you are, cool,like add all of the color you
want to engineer. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (07:24):
right, yeah. I mean, it might be, you know, and
let's talk about engineers. So,like, there's a whole difference
between front end engineers,back end engineers, database
engineers, SREs, like, we couldgo into all the little whatever
it might mean, like, and for alarge team of software
engineers, it's really importantto understand what someone's
(07:45):
expertise is. Like, hierarchy isone thing. What their expertise
is is another thing. And that'swhy they might add something
like that in their emailsignature, or they might add
like a sub line to that so likethey might be signaling
something to engineers acrossthe organization, they might
have some other line that's downthere that really explains the
(08:06):
business person. Like, I'm theperson you reach out to for when
the site is down. Maybe notthose exact words. Like they'll
I'm sure that they have theright terminology, because words
matter. Both you and I arewearing our words matter swag
today. But, but there, there's,there's different things that
you can signal in that emailsignature,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:27):
yeah, you know, just thinking from my own
personal experience, right? Mymy title was program manager in
the HRIS system, and, you know,usually in an email signature,
or, you know, LinkedIn, I couldadd some more detail to that and
be like, program manager. Ofwhat comes to mind is enterprise
(08:49):
marketing management, right?These are the programs that I
manage. So I'm going to signalto you that, like, Hey, if you
have a question about any ofthese projects in my in my
program, like, I'm the one,yeah, as opposed to, like, you
getting an email from a manelite program manager, okay?
Program Manager, of what,
Indra Klavins (09:06):
of what we say, the word of wonderful, because
words matter and clarifyingquestions matter to right? You
know, we're we, we have, we havesome very serious through lines.
One day I'm going to throw allof our transcripts into into an
AI and be like, Okay, tell meour themes. Tell me our themes.
But back to the words matteringin the content, in the context
(09:27):
of titles, I think that you knowtalking about the LinkedIn
titles, like the LinkedIn titledoesn't necessarily match your
email signature, even becauseyou know these the the titles in
the broader industry of yourparticular craft may may be
different than what your what'spermissible or what's
(09:48):
understandable within yourorganization or within your you
know, sector of the world, youknow, finance will be different
than hospitality will bedifferent than straight tech
will be different than all theother. Others that are out
there,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:01):
yeah, I think you hit in an important point
where, like, they don't have tomatch right. Like, just because
your title in according to HR ofyour company is program manager,
it does not mean it's like,illegal to add program manager
of of what to your LinkedIn bio,
Indra Klavins (10:24):
yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of people get
nervous, like, you know when,when their titles do differ
between the HR system andspecifically LinkedIn or their
resume, right, when there isthat, when there is that delta,
and because the reality is thatthere will be future employers
that call for an employmentemployment verification check,
(10:46):
and sometimes what they willdisclose is the title that was
within your organization, right?But the reality of it is, is
that any seasoned professionalknows how to translate HRIS into
what might be on your resume. Sothey can usually trace that. So,
(11:06):
you know, don't get freaked outlike and go, you know, and start
to go on a campaign to make surethe HR is system matches what
might match your futureemployment. Have a little bit of
faith in the system. Have alittle bit of faith in the
people doing employmentchecking. Have a little bit of
faith in your future peoplemanagers or potential hiring
(11:29):
managers, that that they will beable to do that translation,
which is where, again, you don'twant to go completely off the
rails in what that definitionis, but you, but you, yeah, have
a little creativity if you
Amanda Jane Lee (11:42):
need to, yeah, um. And another thing is, I, I
have applied to jobs, and, youknow, had these background
checks done in recent years. Andif you're worried about your
background check coming backwith a delta, yeah, um, what I
can tell you is most of these,if not all of these, background
(12:03):
check companies ask you to fillout a separate form. So if
you're really that worried, youknow, on that form, you say
whatever your HRIS title is,right, and they're not going to
pull up your LinkedIn or, like,pull up, like, whatever other
credentials you have and andmatch it to, you know, the the
(12:26):
form that you you submitted.And, like, oh, wait, you put
Program Manager here, but youput some other title here on
LinkedIn. Like, I'm gonna flagthat
Indra Klavins (12:38):
it's not a, yeah, yes. I think that's a really
good thing to point out. And youknow, the one thing that I would
also say that's that's importantto note, is that the hierarchy
of the titles and even theleveling across organizations
can be really different in thecontext of titles, like in some
organizations, VPS are reallyhigh in the organization, and
(12:59):
some organizations are in themiddle of the organizations. In
some organizations, VP and EVP,executive vice president and
president are not necessarilysequential. There's gaps, so
there's things in the middle, ordirectors are placed in
different levels. So like, havethose when you're in those
conversations with people fromdifferent industries, don't
(13:19):
automatically say, oh, you're adirector. I'm a director. I'm a
director. Too cool. We're in thesame level. You may or may not
be like, you really need tounderstand, like, the sphere of
influence and the scope of whatthat person's job is, and ask
those questions to reallyunderstand if there's, if
there's a true analogousnessbetween your two roles and two
levels. Yeah, I think thecontext of your organization
(13:41):
matters a lot here, becauseyou're right. Like in what comes
to mind when you say VP, andwhat VP means in different
industries is that there are alot of VPS vice presidents in
the finance sector. Yes,whereas, like at a startup, a VP
sometimes reports directly tothe CEO. 100% 100% I love that
(14:04):
example. And, you know, evenwithin an industry like, let's
go to the tech sector, there isa graphic that I love often. I
love referencing from time totime, is how the software
engineering titles map acrossthe Big Five tech companies. You
know, we're thinking, we'rethinking, we're talking about
like, the Facebooks, theGoogles, the Amazons, the
apples, etc. They don't even allmatch up, right? They each have
(14:27):
slight differences in their, youknow, career stages, their
career bands. You know,everybody uses a slightly
different thing. And even thetitles within those like, what's
a level one, level two, levelthree, of a software engineer,
it can be very different fromorganization to organization,
the responsibilities, yeah, and
Amanda Jane Lee (14:44):
so we've talked a lot about understanding what
your title means, right,especially in context of your
organization, and you know,outside in the broader scheme of
things, why? Like, why do theymatter?
Indra Klavins (15:03):
Why do they on a day to day basis at work? On a
day to day basis works, I thinkthat, you know, in that we
talked a lot about the outsideof the organization, we haven't
talked about inside. Like, youknow, back to Verizon, I still
remember massive organization,massive organization. There were
some shortcuts that people woulduse to make sure that they
(15:25):
wouldn't get overwhelmed withtoo many conversations and too
much noise, because if theyinvited a conversation with
everybody, they may not be ableto get their day to day job
done. And so there were somepeople did employ some
shortcuts. Some people didemploy some shortcuts, where,
you know, they would really onlyinterface with people at their
same career stage, and that madesure that that helped them keep
(15:49):
moving their team and theirteam's work forward. So it
wasn't necessarily dismissive,but what it did is it created
some challenges in in so let'ssay I had a team member that
understood exactly what theyneeded to have done, and they
knew that sending the emaildirectly to another director, to
a director because they weren'tat the director level, it
(16:12):
wouldn't necessarily goanywhere. So what we did, the
process that we had, is my teammembers say, hey, Indra, I've
got something I need you tosend. Yeah, they pre draft an
email for me. I take a look atit, I make sure that it made
sense, that I stood behind whatwas there, and then I would send
that email to that director,because, because it was a it was
(16:33):
a shortcut. It was a necessaryshortcut. Like, when you look at
it, you might think, Oh, mygoodness, or too good. Like, no,
it's really not that. It'sreally that it's an organization
of 10s of 1000s of people. Youknow more than that, but let's
say 10s of 1000s of people, andmaking sure that your time is as
well spent as it can be, isreally important. Is really
(16:55):
important.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:56):
I mean, even at organizations that aren't 10s of
1000s of people, like automocks. I'm pretty sure I was one
of those people Indra of justlike, hey, I think this is
really important information. Ican post it in the Slack
channel, but like, I don't knowif it's gonna I don't know if I
have enough clout or weight,right? I think it would be more
(17:19):
seen and heard and understoodand received, if you, and I
think your title was director atthe time, if, like, a director
posted that,
Indra Klavins (17:29):
yeah, yeah. And so, just to give you guys a
sense of where the organizationso the team that Amanda and I
supported was around, at itspeak, was around 250 engineers
and so, yeah, so making surethat it had the right level of
gravitas. It's not that I was,it's not that Amanda wasn't
(17:50):
capable of finding the rightwords. You know, she's, she's
much more skilled at the wordsthan I am, in many ways. And so,
yeah, sometimes she was do thesame. She would pass me a
message and I would post themessage, or I'd send out the
email, and then it would hitdifferently. It would hit
differently and have a differentimpact. So understanding how to
support the people below you,understanding how to leverage
(18:11):
the people that are higher thanyou, and understanding how to
create the pushback to say, hey,Amanda, I see why you wanted me
to do this one. I think that,you know, I need to reserve my
clout, because it is a, it is afinite resource. If I'm, if I'm
posting absolutely everymessage, it's going to lose its
value too. This particular one,I've got another message that I
(18:32):
need to send out and use mydirector title, you know, for
this one, I think you need topost this one this week, and
then maybe that's the way thatyou go, because you need to
figure out, like, how and whento leverage titles and how and
when to leverage those yournetworks, your networks, yeah,
and
Amanda Jane Lee (18:49):
I mean thinking about it from a recipient
perspective, right? Like you aremore you are more likely to
react to something that the CEOposts right, like, because
titles do matter, and they dohold some weight. They do.
Indra Klavins (19:09):
They do there's, and I think it's about being
smart about what you say. Youknow, I think that there's,
there's, didn't, didn't thinkthat we're going to go in this
my brain would go in thisdirection. But like, you need to
be careful when you have thatpower. You can't you know. You
have to understand the weight ofyour title and use it well and
use it well and use it to theadvantage of the greater good.
(19:31):
In my opinion, that's how Ichoose to work on things.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:34):
Yeah, I didn't think my brain would go here,
either, but I what came to mindwas some people like, I've, I've
experienced people with directorand above titles. Will say,
setting, setting an exampleunintentionally and like, not
(19:59):
the greatest. Example, tell memore of just like posting
messages in the middle of thenight, because that's when they
happen, right? That's what theyhappen to be working. And it's
like what you're saying you'rein other forums. You're saying
work life balance is important.Log off when you can't, like you
(20:22):
don't have to overwork yourself.Yet you are you this person with
a title, with weight, yeah, aredoing the opposite, yeah, and
unintentionally using thatweight to set a negative
example? Yes,
Indra Klavins (20:39):
I think it's a much bigger communications like
we keep on you and I arebecoming communication. This is
becoming a communicationspodcast, podcast. I joke about
that all the time, but it'strue. It's true. It's true. You
don't know how that's going toit hits differently when you do
have that title. That title hasweight, and it can shift your
(21:00):
culture, if you use it the wrongif you have, if you engage with
your team the wrong way at acertain status it is a status
thing, you know, and pivoting onthe status thing, or just like
riffing on the status thing, I'mpivoting, riffing. I'm going
back to the example of that,that person, that software
engineer, who was emailing thefolks at Hey, being hey, I need
(21:21):
an email signature. Punintended, I don't know, with my
oh yes, hey, it gets stuck in mybrain certain words every once
in a while. But when you see acolleague, and they do give you
their full set of credentials atthe top of the conversation,
it's probably, look at it. Lookat it for what it is like. See
(21:43):
like, ask yourself, why? Askyourself, why? Maybe they do
need to assert themselves forone reason or another. Maybe you
know their email signature ismuch longer than yours for a
reason or another. Maybe youremail signature is really short
because that's that's what worksfor you in getting work done in
your particular scenario, inyour particular workplace
(22:03):
culture. So, you know, make sureyou take a look at the context
when somebody is leveragingtheir title and why they might
be doing it. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:13):
for sure. When you first told me that story,
you know that engineer, yeah,hey, I was just like, I know
exactly why he's asking. I knowexactly why he's asking about
email signatures and being ableto to use his title, to use his
credentials, right? Because,like, I'm an Asian woman, right?
(22:35):
Like, I there are societallimitations. We'll call it that,
right? And I need to show up ina certain way for people to take
me seriously. And I have amaster's degree, right? Like,
you know, it was the path ofleast resistance at the time,
but like, I have a master'sdegree. I have a Master's i i
(22:58):
tell people that because it, itis yet another way, like my
credentials are another way forme to have more weight in the
conversation or in theinteraction, yeah.
Indra Klavins (23:11):
And you know, for me, I generally have not relied
on my toes. I'm a white woman.I'm a cis white woman, right?
And for me, that hasn't been fora whole slew of reasons. I have
not, I've not leaned on mytitles right as much. There are
scenarios I've given somescenarios here today, but you
(23:33):
know, for me, that's not asmuch. And so for me, when I saw
that, when I first encounteredthat story, way back in 2020 I'm
like, Ah, that's why this personand this person and this person
and this person and this personand this person and this person
in my past had put down everypossible credential in their
email signature, like, it turnedon a light bulb for me. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:53):
right, and like that. That's why I, Amanda, was
such a pain in the butt, askingabout my my title and what it
was, and like, I'm managingpeople now, like, Is my title
now officially manager? Like,can we change that in the HRIS
system, or HRIS, because that'sthe system, but, but yeah, like,
that's why I was such a painabout it, because titles do
(24:15):
matter, especially for someonelike
Indra Klavins (24:18):
me. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think this is a much
bigger topic, because I think Iknow not. I think I know that
for some, when they encounterpeople who flex their
credentials for one reason oranother, it can have an allergic
reaction, like, it's like, oh,what do they think that they're
so special because they didthat? Take a beat, right? Take a
(24:39):
beat. Understand that it's afact. And maybe question just,
just reflect on, not question.Question sounds like you're
going to have an activeconversation with them, but just
reflect on, like, why might thatbe the case? Why might be that
the case? And maybe there'ssomething for you to learn.
Maybe there isn't some sort oflike, maybe you just have never
taken advantage. Like, I nevertook advantage. My titles the
(25:00):
way that I should have, until Ihit certain organizations at
certain thresholds, and then itwas always in my signature,
because I understood that therewas, there was an advantage to
that, and why not take advantageof that, advantage of making
things clear to folks so that Icould engage in certain
conversations? Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:19):
and I think there are some organizations
that take titles very seriously,yes, right? Like it's part of
the company culture, or
Indra Klavins (25:27):
it could be a government organization or a
pseudo military organization, orthere's lots of different types
of companies where titles reallymatter,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:36):
right? Actually, it's interesting that
you brought up military, becausethat that as an organization
where titles really matter.There's, there's a hierarchy
there,
Indra Klavins (25:45):
and that's what keeps that machine going. That's
what keeps that organizationgoing. That's what, that's what
leads to the success of thatteam of that organization. You
know, I'm using more generalterms, just so that there's the
paralleling, but yeah, yeah,there is. There's value to that,
and there's and there's andsometimes that makes sense. And
some organizations love a goodsome organizations love a flat
(26:07):
culture. You know the what isit? The teal organization, we
can talk about those that's atype of structure of an
organization which is based longand the short of it is that
titles can flex based on currentcircumstances. So, oh, I've
Amanda Jane Lee (26:19):
never heard of that. When, when you said flat
organization, I was thinking of,I think it's Netflix actually,
that, like, pretty flat, thateverybody is like, contributor,
Indra Klavins (26:29):
yeah, yeah. Some, some go that route, and some go
even further, where it's andthey're your confidence in a
teal organization, yourcompensation can change based on
your role at a particular time.So it's, it's, it's very, it's
very radical in when you thinkof like a really traditional
organization. But um, back toour topic of titles. They
(26:51):
matter. They matter. Make sureyou understand them
contextually. Make sure thatwhen someone is using their
title, you reflect on whatthey're trying to signal and why
they're trying to signal it, youknow, and you know, see how it
can apply to you. See how youcan apply and show up in a
different way, by adjusting yourtitle, by adjusting even the
(27:11):
font of your title, if you'retalking about email signature,
like there's so many pieces toit. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (27:17):
I think that's another theme of our podcast,
right? Not just, it's not just,it's not just a communications
podcast, but it's also a leadwith curiosity. Yes, right? When
you say, when you see somethingthat you're like, huh, like a
little bit deeper, right? Try tounderstand the other person's
perspective. Try to understandwhy that is right. Because in
(27:39):
most cases, I would say there isa good reason that you know,
Amanda has her title, her hercredentials, all of this stuff
in her email signature.
Indra Klavins (27:51):
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a lovely place for
us to end. Yeah. Thank you,Amanda, for yet another rich and
surprising conversation, wealways wind up somewhere we
didn't realize we'd wind up. AndI think that our conversations
are the better for it. And thankyou to everyone for listening,
and we hope that you'll join usnext time when we cover another
(28:12):
topic for the Bessie middle Bye,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:13):
Bye.
Indra Klavins (28:16):
If today's episode hit home or just made
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middle matter.
I'm Indra,
Unknown (00:08):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to welcome you to the messy middle
Hi, Amanda. How are you today?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:17):
I'm good. How are you Indra?
Indra Klavins (00:20):
Good, good. Today we're talking about titles. It's
something that comes up in theworkplace all the time, and I've
long understood how importanttitles can be in the workplace.
But when I think about titles, Ithink about a specific scenario
that came up in 2020 when 37signals released their new email
platform called Hey, as part ofthe rollout, one of their big
(00:42):
fans, you know, they've got ahuge following from the software
engineering industry. One oftheir fans was a software
engineer. It was a person ofcolor reached out to them and
asked, When are they going to beadding email signatures to the
platform? So, DHH, who is theirCTO. And also created the tech
platform, Ruby on theDevelopment Language, Ruby on
Rails responded, saying thatthey don't plan on adding
(01:06):
signatures to the platformbecause they think they're
divisive. This software engineerthen clarified for DHH, how
important including his titleswas in his email signatures as a
person of color in his livedexperience, what he found was
that when he did not include histitle and credentials and
(01:27):
anything that he had in hisemail signature for new emails
and even the reply to emails,what inevitably happened more
often than he would like, isthat the recipient of the email
wouldn't take his word for Whatwas included in the email, and
trust his expertise, they wouldlook out look for validation
from someone else. So like Isaid, I always understood how
(01:49):
important titles were, whetherit's an email signatures in HRIS
systems or on LinkedIn, but thiswas a new dimension for me, and
so I'm really glad we're gettingto dig in on this topic today.
Yeah, for sure. Um, I for all ofthe reasons you listed, titles
are important, right for HR isHR information systems,
(02:10):
platforms, org charts in yourorganization. But also I view
titles as a way to signal toothers, like what your
credentials are and, like, howto it, how to interact with you,
right? Like, so, you know, Hi,I'm Amanda Lee. I am a director
of something, something likethat holds more weight than
(02:32):
like, I'm just Amanda Lee. Like,you don't know me from, from
anything, right? Like, whetherthat's in the workplace, whether
that's you know on this podcast,whether that's in real life,
like you don't know anythingabout me other than my name and
your title,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:49):
is just one of those indicators that you can
you can use to to leverage yourexpertise and like, just to show
others that you have thesecredentials, that you understand
what you're thinking, what whatyou're talking about. You are an
expert in this field, whateverit is, right? Like in on
LinkedIn, you see a lot ofAmanda Lee, comma, PhD, of
(03:13):
whatever, yeah, and, you know, Idon't have a PhD, but, but you
see a lot of that, because,especially on a platform like
LinkedIn, where you have a lotof weak connections, like weak
ties, yeah, people don't knowyou and and your credentials. So
it's a good like headline, yeah,
Indra Klavins (03:33):
it's a, it's a useful labeling system. It's a
loose useful like taxonomy card,cataloging whatever you want to,
you know, whatever frameworkyou're thinking of from from
your background, is a great way.It's a shortcut. It's a great
shortcut, and it's a greatreminder, and it's a great
billboard. And, you know, youtalked a little bit about some
(03:54):
of these things, let's talk alittle bit about, like, the
different types. Like, let'sstart at the beginning. Human
HRIS systems, you said HumanResources Information Systems.
These are the bread and butterof an HR department, your
people, teams, day to daybusiness, right? It's where all
the records are for all theemployees of the organization,
(04:16):
employees and contractors andother things too, are in there,
right? And when I think about itfrom an HR perspective, like I
was, I was at Verizon, Verizon,massive company, massive
company. When there was a effortto standardize titles across the
entire organization, I also wasthere, you know, I've, I've
(04:36):
lived it a couple of times, butthat's one of the more recent
ones. And what they were tryingto do with the normalization of
the titles was to make sure thatthere was a clear mapping
between levels across a wholebunch of different departments,
like you've got linemen, peoplewho are up on poles, putting up
(04:57):
lines that are in that system.You've got. Software engineers
that are in that system, youhave marketing professionals
that are in that you got so manydifferent types of skill sets.
How could they make sure it'snormalizing the titles? Was a
way to make sure that there wasequitable compensation and
benefits and everything acrossthat entire ecosystem. So there
(05:18):
is an important value to havingthose not so sexy, not
necessarily resonant in yourparticular craft and field, but
there is a value. There's a veryimportant use case for why HR
has such very dry and standardtitles in those systems, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:41):
dry is a good word, right? Dry is a good word
to describe these titles,because usually, especially at a
an enterprise organization like1000s and 1000s and 1000s of
people like, the easiest way tonormalize that data is to say
you're a project manager, you'rean engineer, yeah, whether
you're an engineer, whetheryou're a software engineer, or,
(06:03):
like, one of the linemen on, youknow, on the polls, like you're
still an engineer. Like, this isyour this is the title that is
going to map to your level,which maps to your pay, which
maps to
Indra Klavins (06:18):
other benefits, and all of the other things.
Yeah, and you know, wheneverthese exercises happen, what I
tell my team is, this is what'sneeded in the system. You don't
need to put the same exact titlein your email signature,
referencing the story from thebeginning or on LinkedIn, as you
talked about like there aredifferent you can use different
(06:41):
language for these differentscenarios, and there's good
reasons where you don't want tobe a fool about how you make
them different than what's inyour HRIS system, like don't
declare yourself CEO orsomething. But you know there,
there is latitude. There islatitude to make sure that
you're sending the right signalswithin your organization and
(07:02):
your email signature, or to thelarger ecosystem of the business
world on a platform likeLinkedIn, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (07:10):
I think if it's if it's helpful to clarify what
you do and who you are, cool,like add all of the color you
want to engineer. Yeah,
Indra Klavins (07:24):
right, yeah. I mean, it might be, you know, and
let's talk about engineers. So,like, there's a whole difference
between front end engineers,back end engineers, database
engineers, SREs, like, we couldgo into all the little whatever
it might mean, like, and for alarge team of software
engineers, it's really importantto understand what someone's
(07:45):
expertise is. Like, hierarchy isone thing. What their expertise
is is another thing. And that'swhy they might add something
like that in their emailsignature, or they might add
like a sub line to that so likethey might be signaling
something to engineers acrossthe organization, they might
have some other line that's downthere that really explains the
(08:06):
business person. Like, I'm theperson you reach out to for when
the site is down. Maybe notthose exact words. Like they'll
I'm sure that they have theright terminology, because words
matter. Both you and I arewearing our words matter swag
today. But, but there, there's,there's different things that
you can signal in that emailsignature,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:27):
yeah, you know, just thinking from my own
personal experience, right? Mymy title was program manager in
the HRIS system, and, you know,usually in an email signature,
or, you know, LinkedIn, I couldadd some more detail to that and
be like, program manager. Ofwhat comes to mind is enterprise
(08:49):
marketing management, right?These are the programs that I
manage. So I'm going to signalto you that, like, Hey, if you
have a question about any ofthese projects in my in my
program, like, I'm the one,yeah, as opposed to, like, you
getting an email from a manelite program manager, okay?
Program Manager, of what,
Indra Klavins (09:06):
of what we say, the word of wonderful, because
words matter and clarifyingquestions matter to right? You
know, we're we, we have, we havesome very serious through lines.
One day I'm going to throw allof our transcripts into into an
AI and be like, Okay, tell meour themes. Tell me our themes.
But back to the words matteringin the content, in the context
(09:27):
of titles, I think that you knowtalking about the LinkedIn
titles, like the LinkedIn titledoesn't necessarily match your
email signature, even becauseyou know these the the titles in
the broader industry of yourparticular craft may may be
different than what your what'spermissible or what's
(09:48):
understandable within yourorganization or within your you
know, sector of the world, youknow, finance will be different
than hospitality will bedifferent than straight tech
will be different than all theother. Others that are out
there,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:01):
yeah, I think you hit in an important point
where, like, they don't have tomatch right. Like, just because
your title in according to HR ofyour company is program manager,
it does not mean it's like,illegal to add program manager
of of what to your LinkedIn bio,
Indra Klavins (10:24):
yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of people get
nervous, like, you know when,when their titles do differ
between the HR system andspecifically LinkedIn or their
resume, right, when there isthat, when there is that delta,
and because the reality is thatthere will be future employers
that call for an employmentemployment verification check,
(10:46):
and sometimes what they willdisclose is the title that was
within your organization, right?But the reality of it is, is
that any seasoned professionalknows how to translate HRIS into
what might be on your resume. Sothey can usually trace that. So,
(11:06):
you know, don't get freaked outlike and go, you know, and start
to go on a campaign to make surethe HR is system matches what
might match your futureemployment. Have a little bit of
faith in the system. Have alittle bit of faith in the
people doing employmentchecking. Have a little bit of
faith in your future peoplemanagers or potential hiring
(11:29):
managers, that that they will beable to do that translation,
which is where, again, you don'twant to go completely off the
rails in what that definitionis, but you, but you, yeah, have
a little creativity if you
Amanda Jane Lee (11:42):
need to, yeah, um. And another thing is, I, I
have applied to jobs, and, youknow, had these background
checks done in recent years. Andif you're worried about your
background check coming backwith a delta, yeah, um, what I
can tell you is most of these,if not all of these, background
(12:03):
check companies ask you to fillout a separate form. So if
you're really that worried, youknow, on that form, you say
whatever your HRIS title is,right, and they're not going to
pull up your LinkedIn or, like,pull up, like, whatever other
credentials you have and andmatch it to, you know, the the
(12:26):
form that you you submitted.And, like, oh, wait, you put
Program Manager here, but youput some other title here on
LinkedIn. Like, I'm gonna flagthat
Indra Klavins (12:38):
it's not a, yeah, yes. I think that's a really
good thing to point out. And youknow, the one thing that I would
also say that's that's importantto note, is that the hierarchy
of the titles and even theleveling across organizations
can be really different in thecontext of titles, like in some
organizations, VPS are reallyhigh in the organization, and
(12:59):
some organizations are in themiddle of the organizations. In
some organizations, VP and EVP,executive vice president and
president are not necessarilysequential. There's gaps, so
there's things in the middle, ordirectors are placed in
different levels. So like, havethose when you're in those
conversations with people fromdifferent industries, don't
(13:19):
automatically say, oh, you're adirector. I'm a director. I'm a
director. Too cool. We're in thesame level. You may or may not
be like, you really need tounderstand, like, the sphere of
influence and the scope of whatthat person's job is, and ask
those questions to reallyunderstand if there's, if
there's a true analogousnessbetween your two roles and two
levels. Yeah, I think thecontext of your organization
(13:41):
matters a lot here, becauseyou're right. Like in what comes
to mind when you say VP, andwhat VP means in different
industries is that there are alot of VPS vice presidents in
the finance sector. Yes,whereas, like at a startup, a VP
sometimes reports directly tothe CEO. 100% 100% I love that
(14:04):
example. And, you know, evenwithin an industry like, let's
go to the tech sector, there isa graphic that I love often. I
love referencing from time totime, is how the software
engineering titles map acrossthe Big Five tech companies. You
know, we're thinking, we'rethinking, we're talking about
like, the Facebooks, theGoogles, the Amazons, the
apples, etc. They don't even allmatch up, right? They each have
(14:27):
slight differences in their, youknow, career stages, their
career bands. You know,everybody uses a slightly
different thing. And even thetitles within those like, what's
a level one, level two, levelthree, of a software engineer,
it can be very different fromorganization to organization,
the responsibilities, yeah, and
Amanda Jane Lee (14:44):
so we've talked a lot about understanding what
your title means, right,especially in context of your
organization, and you know,outside in the broader scheme of
things, why? Like, why do theymatter?
Indra Klavins (15:03):
Why do they on a day to day basis at work? On a
day to day basis works, I thinkthat, you know, in that we
talked a lot about the outsideof the organization, we haven't
talked about inside. Like, youknow, back to Verizon, I still
remember massive organization,massive organization. There were
some shortcuts that people woulduse to make sure that they
(15:25):
wouldn't get overwhelmed withtoo many conversations and too
much noise, because if theyinvited a conversation with
everybody, they may not be ableto get their day to day job
done. And so there were somepeople did employ some
shortcuts. Some people didemploy some shortcuts, where,
you know, they would really onlyinterface with people at their
same career stage, and that madesure that that helped them keep
(15:49):
moving their team and theirteam's work forward. So it
wasn't necessarily dismissive,but what it did is it created
some challenges in in so let'ssay I had a team member that
understood exactly what theyneeded to have done, and they
knew that sending the emaildirectly to another director, to
a director because they weren'tat the director level, it
(16:12):
wouldn't necessarily goanywhere. So what we did, the
process that we had, is my teammembers say, hey, Indra, I've
got something I need you tosend. Yeah, they pre draft an
email for me. I take a look atit, I make sure that it made
sense, that I stood behind whatwas there, and then I would send
that email to that director,because, because it was a it was
(16:33):
a shortcut. It was a necessaryshortcut. Like, when you look at
it, you might think, Oh, mygoodness, or too good. Like, no,
it's really not that. It'sreally that it's an organization
of 10s of 1000s of people. Youknow more than that, but let's
say 10s of 1000s of people, andmaking sure that your time is as
well spent as it can be, isreally important. Is really
(16:55):
important.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:56):
I mean, even at organizations that aren't 10s of
1000s of people, like automocks. I'm pretty sure I was one
of those people Indra of justlike, hey, I think this is
really important information. Ican post it in the Slack
channel, but like, I don't knowif it's gonna I don't know if I
have enough clout or weight,right? I think it would be more
(17:19):
seen and heard and understoodand received, if you, and I
think your title was director atthe time, if, like, a director
posted that,
Indra Klavins (17:29):
yeah, yeah. And so, just to give you guys a
sense of where the organizationso the team that Amanda and I
supported was around, at itspeak, was around 250 engineers
and so, yeah, so making surethat it had the right level of
gravitas. It's not that I was,it's not that Amanda wasn't
(17:50):
capable of finding the rightwords. You know, she's, she's
much more skilled at the wordsthan I am, in many ways. And so,
yeah, sometimes she was do thesame. She would pass me a
message and I would post themessage, or I'd send out the
email, and then it would hitdifferently. It would hit
differently and have a differentimpact. So understanding how to
support the people below you,understanding how to leverage
(18:11):
the people that are higher thanyou, and understanding how to
create the pushback to say, hey,Amanda, I see why you wanted me
to do this one. I think that,you know, I need to reserve my
clout, because it is a, it is afinite resource. If I'm, if I'm
posting absolutely everymessage, it's going to lose its
value too. This particular one,I've got another message that I
(18:32):
need to send out and use mydirector title, you know, for
this one, I think you need topost this one this week, and
then maybe that's the way thatyou go, because you need to
figure out, like, how and whento leverage titles and how and
when to leverage those yournetworks, your networks, yeah,
and
Amanda Jane Lee (18:49):
I mean thinking about it from a recipient
perspective, right? Like you aremore you are more likely to
react to something that the CEOposts right, like, because
titles do matter, and they dohold some weight. They do.
Indra Klavins (19:09):
They do there's, and I think it's about being
smart about what you say. Youknow, I think that there's,
there's, didn't, didn't thinkthat we're going to go in this
my brain would go in thisdirection. But like, you need to
be careful when you have thatpower. You can't you know. You
have to understand the weight ofyour title and use it well and
use it well and use it to theadvantage of the greater good.
(19:31):
In my opinion, that's how Ichoose to work on things.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:34):
Yeah, I didn't think my brain would go here,
either, but I what came to mindwas some people like, I've, I've
experienced people with directorand above titles. Will say,
setting, setting an exampleunintentionally and like, not
(19:59):
the greatest. Example, tell memore of just like posting
messages in the middle of thenight, because that's when they
happen, right? That's what theyhappen to be working. And it's
like what you're saying you'rein other forums. You're saying
work life balance is important.Log off when you can't, like you
(20:22):
don't have to overwork yourself.Yet you are you this person with
a title, with weight, yeah, aredoing the opposite, yeah, and
unintentionally using thatweight to set a negative
example? Yes,
Indra Klavins (20:39):
I think it's a much bigger communications like
we keep on you and I arebecoming communication. This is
becoming a communicationspodcast, podcast. I joke about
that all the time, but it'strue. It's true. It's true. You
don't know how that's going toit hits differently when you do
have that title. That title hasweight, and it can shift your
(21:00):
culture, if you use it the wrongif you have, if you engage with
your team the wrong way at acertain status it is a status
thing, you know, and pivoting onthe status thing, or just like
riffing on the status thing, I'mpivoting, riffing. I'm going
back to the example of that,that person, that software
engineer, who was emailing thefolks at Hey, being hey, I need
(21:21):
an email signature. Punintended, I don't know, with my
oh yes, hey, it gets stuck in mybrain certain words every once
in a while. But when you see acolleague, and they do give you
their full set of credentials atthe top of the conversation,
it's probably, look at it. Lookat it for what it is like. See
(21:43):
like, ask yourself, why? Askyourself, why? Maybe they do
need to assert themselves forone reason or another. Maybe you
know their email signature ismuch longer than yours for a
reason or another. Maybe youremail signature is really short
because that's that's what worksfor you in getting work done in
your particular scenario, inyour particular workplace
(22:03):
culture. So, you know, make sureyou take a look at the context
when somebody is leveragingtheir title and why they might
be doing it. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:13):
for sure. When you first told me that story,
you know that engineer, yeah,hey, I was just like, I know
exactly why he's asking. I knowexactly why he's asking about
email signatures and being ableto to use his title, to use his
credentials, right? Because,like, I'm an Asian woman, right?
(22:35):
Like, I there are societallimitations. We'll call it that,
right? And I need to show up ina certain way for people to take
me seriously. And I have amaster's degree, right? Like,
you know, it was the path ofleast resistance at the time,
but like, I have a master'sdegree. I have a Master's i i
(22:58):
tell people that because it, itis yet another way, like my
credentials are another way forme to have more weight in the
conversation or in theinteraction, yeah.
Indra Klavins (23:11):
And you know, for me, I generally have not relied
on my toes. I'm a white woman.I'm a cis white woman, right?
And for me, that hasn't been fora whole slew of reasons. I have
not, I've not leaned on mytitles right as much. There are
scenarios I've given somescenarios here today, but you
(23:33):
know, for me, that's not asmuch. And so for me, when I saw
that, when I first encounteredthat story, way back in 2020 I'm
like, Ah, that's why this personand this person and this person
and this person and this personand this person and this person
in my past had put down everypossible credential in their
email signature, like, it turnedon a light bulb for me. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (23:53):
right, and like that. That's why I, Amanda, was
such a pain in the butt, askingabout my my title and what it
was, and like, I'm managingpeople now, like, Is my title
now officially manager? Like,can we change that in the HRIS
system, or HRIS, because that'sthe system, but, but yeah, like,
that's why I was such a painabout it, because titles do
(24:15):
matter, especially for someonelike
Indra Klavins (24:18):
me. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think this is a much
bigger topic, because I think Iknow not. I think I know that
for some, when they encounterpeople who flex their
credentials for one reason oranother, it can have an allergic
reaction, like, it's like, oh,what do they think that they're
so special because they didthat? Take a beat, right? Take a
(24:39):
beat. Understand that it's afact. And maybe question just,
just reflect on, not question.Question sounds like you're
going to have an activeconversation with them, but just
reflect on, like, why might thatbe the case? Why might be that
the case? And maybe there'ssomething for you to learn.
Maybe there isn't some sort oflike, maybe you just have never
taken advantage. Like, I nevertook advantage. My titles the
(25:00):
way that I should have, until Ihit certain organizations at
certain thresholds, and then itwas always in my signature,
because I understood that therewas, there was an advantage to
that, and why not take advantageof that, advantage of making
things clear to folks so that Icould engage in certain
conversations? Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:19):
and I think there are some organizations
that take titles very seriously,yes, right? Like it's part of
the company culture, or
Indra Klavins (25:27):
it could be a government organization or a
pseudo military organization, orthere's lots of different types
of companies where titles reallymatter,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:36):
right? Actually, it's interesting that
you brought up military, becausethat that as an organization
where titles really matter.There's, there's a hierarchy
there,
Indra Klavins (25:45):
and that's what keeps that machine going. That's
what keeps that organizationgoing. That's what, that's what
leads to the success of thatteam of that organization. You
know, I'm using more generalterms, just so that there's the
paralleling, but yeah, yeah,there is. There's value to that,
and there's and there's andsometimes that makes sense. And
some organizations love a goodsome organizations love a flat
(26:07):
culture. You know the what isit? The teal organization, we
can talk about those that's atype of structure of an
organization which is based longand the short of it is that
titles can flex based on currentcircumstances. So, oh, I've
Amanda Jane Lee (26:19):
never heard of that. When, when you said flat
organization, I was thinking of,I think it's Netflix actually,
that, like, pretty flat, thateverybody is like, contributor,
Indra Klavins (26:29):
yeah, yeah. Some, some go that route, and some go
even further, where it's andthey're your confidence in a
teal organization, yourcompensation can change based on
your role at a particular time.So it's, it's, it's very, it's
very radical in when you thinkof like a really traditional
organization. But um, back toour topic of titles. They
(26:51):
matter. They matter. Make sureyou understand them
contextually. Make sure thatwhen someone is using their
title, you reflect on whatthey're trying to signal and why
they're trying to signal it, youknow, and you know, see how it
can apply to you. See how youcan apply and show up in a
different way, by adjusting yourtitle, by adjusting even the
(27:11):
font of your title, if you'retalking about email signature,
like there's so many pieces toit. Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (27:17):
I think that's another theme of our podcast,
right? Not just, it's not just,it's not just a communications
podcast, but it's also a leadwith curiosity. Yes, right? When
you say, when you see somethingthat you're like, huh, like a
little bit deeper, right? Try tounderstand the other person's
perspective. Try to understandwhy that is right. Because in
(27:39):
most cases, I would say there isa good reason that you know,
Amanda has her title, her hercredentials, all of this stuff
in her email signature.
Indra Klavins (27:51):
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a lovely place for
us to end. Yeah. Thank you,Amanda, for yet another rich and
surprising conversation, wealways wind up somewhere we
didn't realize we'd wind up. AndI think that our conversations
are the better for it. And thankyou to everyone for listening,
and we hope that you'll join usnext time when we cover another
(28:12):
topic for the Bessie middle Bye,
Amanda Jane Lee (28:13):
Bye.
Indra Klavins (28:16):
If today's episode hit home or just made
you laugh, you might love ourmerch. We've got three
collections. Don't make meregret in honor of the
sweatshirt that started it all,words matter, inspired by our
most popular episode, andembrace the messy to celebrate
the beautiful chaos. Head toshop. Dot the messy. Middle
matters.com. To take a look.Everything's print on demand, so
(28:38):
be sure to double check yoursize before ordering. But if
anything goes wrong with theprinting, our vendor will work
with you to make it right,looking for a different cut or
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My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
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