Episode Transcript
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Indra Klavins (00:06):
Hi, I'm Indra,
Amanda Jane Lee (00:06):
and I'm Amanda,
Indra Klavins (00:10):
and we'd like to
welcome you to the messy middle
matters. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are you
Indra? I'm good. I'm good.Actually, yesterday was a really
good day for me too. I went tosee my friend Ashley get
interviewed, and she actuallysaid something that I think
you're going to really like.It's going to set something off
(00:32):
for you. One of the things shesaid in the interview was how
content creation is the newresume?
Amanda Jane Lee (00:41):
Yeah. I feel
that deeply,
Indra Klavins (00:45):
right? I was
like, Ashley. I'm like, girl.
I'm like, that it hit it hithard. I think it hits harder for
people who are workingindependently, like you and I
are, but it's still, if I wasstill in my corporate days, it
would still hit, it would stillhit, Yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (01:07):
agreed. And you
know, one of the reasons we're
doing this podcast is to createthat presence right, to create
like, to buffer our quoteresume. This is part of our
portfolio of this of what we'redoing, right? Because,
Indra Klavins (01:25):
like these days,
a resume isn't enough, like for
most people, not for everyone,but for most people, they need
to have people not only need tosee your credentials and
understand what you've done inthat classical format of a CV or
a resume. You also, they alsoneed to understand your thought
(01:46):
leadership perspectives. Andthen there's a whole list of
skills that are required forthat as well. So like, it's It's
kind of insane. It's bothwonderful and perplexing. It's
both at the same time, of what'sexpected, how many skills are
required. The wonderful part isthat it lets us showcase
(02:07):
ourselves in new ways which andthe barrier to entry for things
like creating your own businessor creating your own personal
brand is much lower than it'sever been, but that's created an
expectation that everyone has apersonal brand and is writing
thought leadership on the sideand all this other
Amanda Jane Lee (02:23):
stuff, right?
And all of that is overwhelming.
Indra Klavins (02:27):
It's
overwhelming. It's really,
Amanda Jane Lee (02:31):
I mean, like,
look at LinkedIn these days,
like everyone is posting theirthought leadership their you
know, it's just post after postafter post, because everyone's
realized that you have to havethis personal brand, like people
have people want to know or youknow, you set it as an
(02:53):
expectation. And I think thereare people who expect to know
those other facets of who youare,
Indra Klavins (03:01):
right? And it's
and in this job market, I mean,
I think where it plays the mostfor people who are on the more
traditional career path, likewhen you're switching
organizations, you need thatthought leadership, like where
it where it was, I think a fewyears ago is you would see
people start writing thoughtleadership between jobs, or as
(03:21):
they were starting to apply forroles, or start thinking about
going somewhere else, like itwas a, it was a, if you know,
you know signal, but now it'sthis there. There's this
expectation that you're going todo it on an ongoing basis, and
have your blog and have yourvideos and have your this, and
have your that. And not only doyou need to have them, they need
(03:44):
to be of a certain caliber,right, which is a whole nother.
Everything needs a logo.Everything needs a branding.
Everything needs a like, youknow, the catchphrase, it's,
it's, it's a lot, it's a lot,right? And, you know, just a
call back to our feedbackepisode, there's you, you put
(04:06):
that stuff out there, right? Andif it's not of a certain
caliber, you get all thefeedback 100% or it doesn't
stick right.
Amanda Jane Lee (04:14):
It doesn't
stick. And you have to, like,
improve it. And it's, it'sbecome this thing that you have
to do, you
Indra Klavins (04:22):
have to do. And,
you know, I think that the the
the lowest stakes way to do itfor folks is to like, reshare,
reshare with comments onLinkedIn posts from other
people. So, like, there's waysto do it that are not as big of
a lift, but even in those like,What can I say? That's novel
(04:46):
about what Adam Grant said. AdamGrant is a very esteemed writer,
academic advisor, like, what?What do I have to add to his
LinkedIn post? But I also knowthat if I don't add a few words.
Before I repost his thing, it'snot going to hit the feed in the
same way, and it's not gonna getattributed to me and associate
itself with my professionalbrand. Like,
Amanda Jane Lee (05:09):
I know there
are so many things. It's funny
you brought up that example,because, yeah, there are so many
things that I want to share. Andthen I go through that thought
process and I'm just like, Idon't, I don't have anything to
say other than, like, yeah, whatAdam said.
Indra Klavins (05:24):
And that's when I
go back and I go repost without
comments. I'm like, I gotnothing, I got nothing, but I
want more people to see this.I'm
Amanda Jane Lee (05:31):
out Right,
right? I I'm sharing it because
I want people to see it. I want
Indra Klavins (05:36):
people to see it,
and I agree with him, but like,
again, I also know, because youneed to understand the
algorithms of every darnplatform that's out there, you
know, like threads algorithm,tick tocks algorithm, Instagrams
algorithm, LinkedIn algorithm,like, they're all different and
they're all
Amanda Jane Lee (05:53):
different and
they're all constantly changing.
And again, back to the word,overwhelming
Indra Klavins (05:59):
different form
factors, 100% like which, which
dimensions am I choosing? Who amI biasing myself towards? It's,
it's it's insane,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:07):
it's right. Is
this professional, professional
enough to post on LinkedIn?
Indra Klavins (06:13):
I swear, I swear.
But we are all in a world where
there is some level ofexpectation for most
professionals these days, tomarket themselves, to constantly
market themselves, andconstantly be adding to the
conversation. And you know, Iappreciate the irony of having
started a podcast with you andabout what I'm about to say. I
(06:36):
hate listening to myself talk. Ilove having conversations, which
is why, when I was like, I needto do, I want to do a podcast.
I'm like, I need to findsomeone. I'm so glad that you're
my partner in this, because Ilove dialoguing. But like
listening to myself talk isjust, which is a lot of what
social can be.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:54):
Oh, same. I
mean, the first few episodes of
our podcast listening to myselftalk. It's just like, oh, this
is, I don't like it. I hopeother people do. But I, I for
one, cannot stand it
Indra Klavins (07:09):
well. And they
do, and they do this is, this is
the good news, but, but thething is, like, it's also like,
is it listening to yourselftalk? I had to get used to it
because, you know, we're doingthis on a bootstrap budget,
right? You know, we'rebootstrapping it, and I'm
editing the podcast, I'mlistening the podcast. I've
learned how to mix podcasts.I've learned how to and I'm not
(07:29):
saying I'm doing it perfectly,folks, but I'm like in every
episode. I hope it gets a littlebit better, but mixing and
editing and mastering andsyncing the video from like,
after I've mastered the audio,making sure I sync it to the
video, and then figuring out howto do the pre roll and the post
roll and the clips and the like,the the conversations we had
(07:50):
with the person who created ourintro music on Fiverr. Like,
that's a lot of skills. That's alot of skills that I never
thought that I would have, thathave not been relevant to my job
ever, but I'm glad they havethem, and we can talk about the
payoff of these skills, how theypaid off, even already for me,
but like, beyond the podcast.But like,
Amanda Jane Lee (08:10):
it's a lot.
Yeah, you didn't even in that
list. I don't think you eventouched on the social media part
of it. No, no, that's a wholenother thing. That's a whole
other and it's like, oh, I nowunderstand why a social media,
you know, manager is its ownjob.
Indra Klavins (08:29):
It's its own job.
And, like, it's, it's pretty
wild. And, you know, it's wild,it's wild, but it's all and the
thing is that it's all requiredto be successful. The you know,
we'll have some celebrations aswe hit the milestones, and y'all
will see them on LinkedIn andinstant whatever, because we
have some really good milestonesthat are coming up as far as the
(08:49):
podcast goes. But to hit thosemilestones, you need to do it of
a caliber that is, you know,like it's got to be top notch,
because our expectations are sohigh as consumers of information
these days.
Amanda Jane Lee (09:06):
Oh, totally.
It's, you know, if it's not of
that caliber, it's so easy tojust scroll by and go on to the
next thing, like, very well,what's the hook? Right? And
we're constantly thinking aboutthis,
Indra Klavins (09:19):
right? It's
pretty wild. But, you know,
beyond the, you know, we I couldtalk for days about the podcast
stuff, and, you know, I probablywill create a some sort of, like
seminar, webinar, real, virtualsomeday, for people who are
thinking of doing it. Becausewhile we're still in these
earliest days and remember allthe bumps and bruises, I want to
(09:40):
make sure we get it down. Forsomeone who wants to go wants to
go down that route, but like,let's talk about, like, some of
the other pieces of it beyond,you know, recording a pod.
Because, you know, I doencourage others to do it. We do
need more diverse voices as partof the conversation, the larger
conversation about work. Work,among other things. But, you
(10:02):
know, we think about the other,other avenues for people to do
their personal branding andeverything else, like, let's
talk about the, let's talk aboutblogging. Let's talk about
blogging, and then we can gofrom there.
Amanda Jane Lee (10:13):
Yeah, it's
blogging. It's the, it's
writing, right? It's, it'shaving good writing skills and
and having good like publicspeaking skill, you know, we're
doing a podcast, but this ispublic speaking. We're speaking
in public, and so it's justhaving those communication
skills honed is super important,because if you're not clear in
(10:37):
what you're saying, and it's notjust if you're not clear, but
it's if you're not clear andthat you don't have your
personal touch on it. What makespeople you know want to stop and
read or listen to your thing?
Indra Klavins (10:52):
Why listen like
you need to give them the why
you need like, what's in it forthem and needs to be at the top.
There needs to be something, andit's and that's hard to do.
Like, I'm just really thinkingabout, like, my journey. I'm
not, I'm not as consistent withwriting as I would like to be.
At this particular moment, I'mgiving myself a goal. We'll see
if we hit it or not. I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna share it
(11:15):
right now. But like, if I thinkabout my writing journey, it's,
you know, it i as I've dabbledlike, so most of my historical
posts have been on medium. I'mmaking the switch to sub stack
in the not too distant future.But the the medium posts like,
whenever I had something that Ireally wanted to share with the
world, that's how I did it. Youknow, it wasn't always easy,
(11:38):
though, because when you workfor a company, especially a
large corporation, there are,it's there are rules around what
you are and aren't allowed totalk about, which can be really,
really hard to navigate aroundand still create your own
personal brand.
Amanda Jane Lee (11:58):
Yeah, you
mentioned substack. I I've
started writing on sub stack.I've given myself a goal of
publishing something weekly. I,I was spinning my wheels a bit
to find my niche, right? Like,What the What's in it for me,
and I landed on the what's in itfor me, or what's in it for
(12:18):
them, is they get to know mebetter, yeah? Like, they get to
know me better as a person. I'mnot writing only about work
related topics. I'm working I'mwriting about, like, you know,
one of my recent posts was aboutrandom things that I thought
about during my birthday
Indra Klavins (12:35):
week. Yeah, and I
think that's a really great way
for someone who's not in aposition where they can post a
lot because of all those, thoseconstraints and requirements of
their current role, likepractice, doing the stuff that
you love, like or like, youknow, let's say you're into DND.
Write a DND thing you know,like, or, you know, if you have
(12:58):
thoughts on, you know, like,what was it? Recently, Apple
have made announcements aroundtheir new designs, just other, I
don't know if it's a designsystem. They're they've
redesigned everything. But like,if you have thoughts on that,
and you know, maybe you don'thit the publish button, maybe
you don't because you're notallowed to for a particular
topic, but practicing how totell those stories. I don't know
(13:19):
who said it recently that Iheard. But like, by our nature,
human beings are storytellers,right? And like learning, but
learning and remembering andhaving the chance to practice
the skills of telling stories isreally hard. I mean, I've
watched my communication skillsimprove over the past episodes,
(13:39):
like I with each and everysingle episode, I'm more clear,
I'm more concise. I i I find mywords more quickly. I speak a
little more slowly. I do stillspeak quickly. I'm not I'm not
delusional on how quickly Ispeak, but I enunciate better. I
still swallow the ends of words,but I'm getting better, you
(14:00):
know. But you need to go to thegym and practice these things so
that you can tap into them. Whenyou do need to, like, when you
are called on
Unknown (14:09):
to be part of a panel
discussion, you'll already have
some thoughts on how you mightcommunicate that out with
somebody else, right? Yeah, Iwas smiling the entire time you
were saying that, because Iwasn't sure if we were going
there, right? But of course, itcomes back to a common theme on
(14:29):
all of our podcast episodes oflike you, you just need to
practice doing the
Indra Klavins (14:33):
thing Life is one
big, giant practice. Who
session? Who are we kidding,right? Who are we kidding? We're
never gonna get anythingperfectly,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:42):
yeah? And I
think, you know, writing a blog
or just like writing in yourjournal, practicing writing,
practicing your communicationskills, practicing your soft
skills, like just the art ofpracticing will will just make
you better. Going to it is likegoing to the gym.
Indra Klavins (14:58):
Yeah? And if it's
and. If getting something done
on paper is a little too hardpractice just having the
conversations and in your mind,pretend like you're being
interviewed on a podcast,pretend like you're in a panel
discussion. Pretend, and that'llgive you something another thing
where I you know when I don'tknow where to start with a
conversation, and I know, I knowthe topic, I know the
(15:22):
constraints, I know thewhatever. I actually feed it
into an into an AI, I feed itinto an AI, and I like, let it
come back like, this is what I'mthinking. These are the things
and it gives me she uses, sheuses a different word, but Anne
Lamott, she has this concept inwriting, where just get out your
(15:43):
terrible first draft. Her wordsstarts with an S. You can figure
out what it is. I can't say itand still, still stay safe for
work. But like, just get outyour terrible first draft and
then take it from there. Butlike, getting something onto the
page, so to speak, is the mostimportant step in the writing
process. And so to me, when I'mjust stuck with something. I'll
feed something, and I'll let theAI give me the terrible first
(16:05):
draft. Me like, okay, like, howdo I even begin? And then that
gives me something to react to,which is always really nice,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:11):
yeah? Or, you
know, I'll do it's not the
opposite thing, but I'll do thedifferent thing of, I have my
terrible first draft. I put it,you know, I feed it into the the
AI tool of choice, and I'm like,What do you think? Like, where,
where can I improve here, right?Like, here's the message that I
(16:32):
I want to drive home. Like, arethe words that I wrote down good
enough in telling that story, inin delivering that message.
Indra Klavins (16:42):
I love that. I
love using AI as my feedback
tool. Like, Hey, what are, whatpoints are you getting across
from this? What's like, what'syour takeaway from it?
Inevitably, then gives me asecond draft with our expert.
Oh, yeah, yeah. And, like, I didnot ask for that, right? It's
like, that was
Amanda Jane Lee (17:01):
good, but
here's something that's better.
And I'm just like, No, that'sno, that's not my words anymore.
Indra Klavins (17:07):
That's not my
words anymore. I don't want your
draft, but, but thank you forthe first part. Wait.
Amanda Jane Lee (17:12):
Thanks for the
first part, and for catching my
spelling mistakes. Thank you.
Indra Klavins (17:16):
Oh, my goodness,
you know, but, but it is, it is
we all need to practice thesethings. The other thing that I
think that we all need to startthinking about, if you are
starting to think about likepanel discussions or interviews
or whatever it might be, and itstill sneaks up on me every
single time, and I always writeit from scratch, you would
think, I do have a bank of them,but none of them make me happy
(17:38):
at any given moment in time, isyour bio, your personal bio for
being on that panel discussion,your personal bio for being part
of that podcast, your personalbio for being on that panel
discussion at work, at the townhall, like, getting starting to
think through, like, what arethe like, what is the thing that
I would want people to talkabout? Like, when? How would I
(18:00):
want to be explained to somebodyelse. You know, it's your
elevator pitch, but somebodyelse is doing the pitching
Right,
Amanda Jane Lee (18:06):
right? Or it's
your own elevator pitch, right?
It's like, if you are invited tospeak out a conference, they're,
they're going to publish the theconference schedule with your
with your event, with yourpicture, with something about
you. What is that somethingabout you?
Indra Klavins (18:22):
Yeah, yeah. I
mean, it's, it's, and let's be
clear, this is additional laborthat's not in your job
description. It's nothing yousigned up for. It's not your
core competency in most cases,or at least parts of it won't be
maybe you're great at writing,but like in this world that
seems to need to have videothese days. Like, all right, I
(18:45):
got to worry about lighting andmy wind. And like, I was, I was
joking, like, I'm like, I feellike, Mariah Carey, like,
where's my wind, where's mylight. But you know, these are
your there will inevitably besomething. And you know, I'd
say, be as gentle with yourselfas you can, set realistic goals
(19:06):
and expectations like we I havea very high bar for myself. It's
a stupidly high bar. But, youknow, do what you can do what
you can when you can. But youknow, the more you can be ahead
of it, or the more you can beprepared to respond to it when
the ask or opportunity hits, thebetter off you're going to be.
(19:28):
So do that practicing when andwhere you can, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (19:31):
the the
practice is so essential. And
you know, I,
Indra Klavins (19:36):
I think
Amanda Jane Lee (19:37):
marketing your,
the need to market yourself has
always existed. I think it'sjust existing in this overdrive
state nowadays,
Indra Klavins (19:49):
exactly like
that's kind of what Ashley was
saying when she said this. Sheresponded to this question,
like, yeah, communication or No,content is the new res? Resume.
It's like, like, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (20:02):
It's, you're
everywhere, or you can be
everywhere. And
Indra Klavins (20:06):
you can't just
have content to be very, very
clear. You also need yourresume, or your one page, or
whatever, like, depending onwhat you're trying to do, you
know if you're running your ownbusiness or if you're there, but
like, they're both kind of,they're or people need to at
least be able to see thepotential for it, right? If
you're not there for publishingit. So, yeah, just and, yeah, go
(20:28):
ahead,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:28):
you and you
said content, right? Like,
depending on what you know, whatyour brand is coming up with,
the content is its own thing.
Indra Klavins (20:40):
It is. I mean,
and like, I hadn't thought of
this prior to now, but like,can, like, if I'm thinking about
a software engineer, maybe it'scontributing to conversations on
Git, right? Like, and addingperspectives there, right? I
mean, I am not a super git user,so like, Y'all have some grace
with me as I'm talking aboutthings, but there could be other
things. Or, like, if I'mthinking about the design ops
(21:02):
community that I'm a part of,like being an active member in
the conversation on Slack, maybeit's that right? Or maybe it's
somebody who shows up to maybeit's being the person who shows
up to the meetups that happenfor your particular career
industry, whether they're liveor virtual, like all of that
stuff, builds and builds andbuilds, and that is part of it
(21:24):
and part of the creating youridentity. So I don't want anyone
to feel like, oh my god, I'm sooverwhelmed. There's too much
like, I've already got so muchpressure. I can't do it. There's
lots and lots of different waysto do this. We've been just
talking about some of the onesthat we've been facing the most
lately. It could be really justbeing a member of your
community, an active part of thecommunity that is beyond your
(21:47):
immediate organization. It couldbe the active community of your
company, or the community ofyour craft, or a community of
whatever.
Amanda Jane Lee (21:55):
Yeah, it's your
your presence, whether online or
in real life, right? It's andit's the presence that others
can see.
Indra Klavins (22:06):
It needs to be
visible. It can't be in the
shadows as much anymore. I thinkthat's where, if we're thinking
about the old fashioned times,which are not that long ago,
like you'd go, you'd give yourresume, and, you know, even,
even in the LinkedIn, daysbefore content was King, right?
And whatever version we'reliving right now, but like, your
LinkedIn was a version of yourresume. You'd go to the
(22:28):
interview, you'd explain it,right? And it's so it's, it's
just a different narrative, and,yeah, it's just a different way
of doing it, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:37):
in the old in
the old fashioned ways, right?
You You have your resume. Youget invited to an interview.
Your interview is your marketingopportunity. And like, that was
it, that was it.
Indra Klavins (22:49):
And now there's
now there's not only, like, you
have to do all this stuff beforeyou even apply potential. I
mean, again, I'm talking inhyperbole here, folks, but like,
you do all this stuff before youapply. You apply, you get
yourself a cover letter. The youknow, the expectations can be so
overwhelming and high. You go tothe interview, you do the
interview, you got to do a mockexercise. You got to like the
(23:11):
loop, then you finish it. Andthen on your first day of work,
you're expected to post onLinkedIn with this, like pre
crafted email that you'resupposed to make yourself, or
pre crafted post that goes onLinkedIn with your Yay. I'm so
excited to be part of companyABC. Like, take what you can do,
what you can do, what you canbut know that you're not in it
(23:32):
alone. There's so many resourcesout there that you can, like,
tap into, like, I'll link inshow notes to Anne lamotts book
Bird by Bird, which is aboutwriting. And that's really,
she's she's just got a reallyinteresting approach about just
generally writing. But you know,you can go to Tiktok and find
ways to find videos on thatstuff. You can go to Insta, do
(23:52):
the same thing, LinkedIn, do thesame thing. YouTube, do the same
thing, like just find thedifferent ways to just at least
get familiar with it so thatyou're ready when you need to
tap into it. I would say thatwould be, in my mind's eye, the
the baseline expectation, or thebaseline hope for everyone
listening. Expectation means I'mgonna follow up y'all. Y'all are
(24:14):
adults. Y'all get to decide whatyou do and don't. You can give
me the middle finger, so tospeak. That's that's up to you.
But like, I would say that that,to me, is like the I would take
off, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (24:24):
yeah. The
takeaway from, from all of this,
right, of realizing theenvironment that we're in right
now, the the digital age, orwhatever you want to call it,
where there's LinkedIn, there'stick tock, there's Instagram,
there's there's sub stack,there's, there's all of these.
There's podcast platforms,there's all these different
(24:45):
avenues where you are maybeexpected to exist at a minimum,
I would say, you know,unfortunately, baseline, you
should have a LinkedIn profile.File, right? Okay,
Indra Klavins (25:01):
yes, that's a
requirement today, when I don't
see someone's LinkedIn profile,and it's work for their their
networking. I'm like, Who areyou, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (25:12):
I'm like, Who
are you? Who are you? Do you
even exist,
Indra Klavins (25:15):
right? I'm like,
You're you're standing in front
of me, but like, I don't believeyou're a human, right now,
Amanda Jane Lee (25:20):
right? Um,
yeah, because as we were talking
about, you know, the onlinepresence and like, you don't, it
is overwhelming. And we're notsaying that you have to, like,
go out and create all theseaccounts and like post all this
content. Don't do that rightaway. Don't, don't, don't, don't
do that. Yeah, it's too much.But as we were talking about
that, I just thought of, youknow, when I met someone at a
(25:43):
networking event, or, like,when, when I was reviewing a
resume, and I want to know more,I'll go to LinkedIn and be like,
Who is this person? Andsometimes their profile wouldn't
exist, or I couldn't find themon LinkedIn, and I'm like,
Really,
Indra Klavins (25:58):
or their profile
exists and it's just their
headshot, and no experiencelike, fill that thing out.
You've got a resume. Drop in thestuff. Make sure it matches.
Have a decent headshot. You cando them yourself using, like our
smartphones these days. Havegreat cameras, you know, do your
best on one of those if you workenough, workplaces sometimes
(26:19):
offer headshot. Days, get aheadshot, you know? And if all
else fails, you can AI. I don'trecommend this, but, like, I've
seen people do it, they use AIto generate off of a bunch of
casual shots, right, right?Yeah, I think it's just, you
know, it's, it's practicing.It's one putting yourself out
(26:41):
there at a minimum, likeprofile, I think that's like the
safest social media platform,right? Like you don't want
potential employers or likepotential clients to maybe go
into, deep into your personalsocials, but like LinkedIn,
LinkedIn professional and theLinkedIn keeps them from digging
(27:02):
across all the rest of them,right? So I think that that's a
really good one. And I stillstand by, pay attention to the
ecosystem. Pay attention towhat's going on, you know, so
that you you're not surprised,or at least, you know the things
exist. I'd say that's animportant skill. And then, you
know, when the time comes, dipinto what you need to but set
(27:25):
realistic, achievableexpectations for yourself at
that moment in time. Becausenobody needs to have, nobody
needs to be in a spiral,because, oh my god, now I need
to contact, great, oh my god,now I don't like how much time
does it take you? Would youguess Amanda to create one blog
post for the week? Depends onwhat I'm writing about. But a
(27:48):
few hours, few hours, and noteveryone has that, right? So
give yourself grace, heart, afew things, or whatever, like
you can, like you can do theidea you can do the clap,
there's, there's all the optionsof the LinkedIn liking of
things, right? You know, do alittle bit of that, do a little
bit of reposting, do a littleand that'll show up as part of
your your profile. And then whenyou do have something to share,
(28:12):
this is, I think this is a wouldbe the third piece. When you do
have something to share, add itto your LinkedIn profile. I have
one of my weirdest things that'son my LinkedIn profile. I still
have it because still have itbecause it makes me crack up.
I'm I've, over the course of mycareer, I've been very good at
getting the quarterly awards oflike this. You're the best of
like, you know, you know, here'sa pat on the back, trophies,
(28:35):
right? I created one for theteam that I was supporting. It.
We at we work. It was called theRed tech, silver hard hat, hard
hat award. And they also awardedit to me. Whenever you get those
things, and you can add them toyour profile, add them. Add them
when you have something, whenyou are featured in a in a panel
(28:56):
discussion, add that like thoseare the ease. Those are easy. It
was done for you already. Add itto your LinkedIn profile, and
it'll just build and build andbuild over time, and then one
day you might be a full timecontent creator. Who the heck
knows if that's your the careerpath that's meant for you, but
you don't
Amanda Jane Lee (29:13):
need to do
that. Yeah, I am. I'm smiling
because, as you were sayingthat, I thought of my own
LinkedIn profile and i i addedto, you know, like the tagline,
yes, yeah, the tagline that I'mco host of, the messy middle
matters.
Indra Klavins (29:32):
Play with your
tagline. That thing is fun to
play with, I mean, and test andlearn see what goes I used to
have a really steady one, andI've been like messing with it a
lot lately, that's actually afun place to like, what's my
identity, because that's thefirst thing people see on their
search results,
Amanda Jane Lee (29:47):
right, right?
They see your name, and then
they see your tagline. And youknow, back when LinkedIn was was
own, only a version of yourresume right before all the
kinds. Content creation, socialfeed stuff, most people's
taglines were just their theirmost recent job title, yeah, and
(30:09):
now it's like, lots and lots ofcharacters. Of all the roles of,
like, thought leader,storyteller, I think you
Indra Klavins (30:18):
only get 200
characters, so you got to get
really tight on that reminds youthe early days of Twitter,
right? Like, when you'd have to,like, you're like, got to be
tight with your mind. But if youand if you don't know what to
do, use an AI to give you someideas. What it gives you back
might be not overly useful, asis, but it could light the spark
for you to come up with the oneyou need,
Amanda Jane Lee (30:39):
right? It helps
you brainstorm. It helps a
sparring partner.
Indra Klavins (30:43):
This is a good
sparring partner. Okay, so what
were his takeaways? Ourtakeaways were, make sure you
have a LinkedIn profile. Payattention to what's going on in
the ecosystem. And then what wasthe third one? Oh, gosh, I had a
third one. Yeah, we had a thirdone. And it, if we just said it,
Amanda Jane Lee (31:03):
we'll go we'll
go back to the notes.
Indra Klavins (31:06):
We'll go back.
But there were three, and I'll
make sure that it's in the shownotes, and we'll probably have
some sort of graphic that wecreate with it. But it's, it's,
you know, it's, I'll make itsure it's an overlay of the
video. I'll add the third one.We'll make a nice little list.
But you know it, keep it easy,keep it achievable, keep it what
you can do. Maybe that was thelast one. Do what? Yeah, like,
Oh, that was a third one. Okay,okay, I got them. I got them.
(31:28):
Make sure you have a LinkedInprofile. Pay attention to the
ecosystem. And when you haveaccomplishments and things you
can add to your LinkedInprofile, add them.
Amanda Jane Lee (31:37):
Yes, yes. And
fourth, but which should really
be the first. Be kind toyourself.
Indra Klavins (31:42):
Yes, that's,
that's, yeah, that end. That's
number one on the list foreverything. Give yourself grace.
Give yourself grace, because itis a lot like the, you
Amanda Jane Lee (31:54):
know, we talked
about all of this, and I don't
want to come off as like, youhave to do all of these things,
but we've learned to do all ofthese things. And we're not
saying that, like all of this isnecessary. We're recognizing how
much stuff it is, how much andhow much time and how much
energy and how much just, like,mental capacity you need to to
(32:18):
make it content creation, yourresume. And
Indra Klavins (32:21):
it's not, yeah,
and it's not, it's not for
everyone. It's not real. It'snot realistic. It's not
realistic. The expectationsyou'll have are not realistic.
So when you don't meet thoseexpectations, give yourself
grace, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (32:33):
Give yourself
Grace like, just remember that
it's all practice, and just tryto practice as much as you can.
Indra Klavins (32:39):
Yes, I love it.
That's a perfect place for us to
wrap the conversation. Amanda,yet another thoughtful
conversation that we get tohave. Hopefully our listeners
got something out of this, got alittle commiseration, maybe some
tips and tricks they can use.And so I hope that everyone
joins us next time when we coveranother topic for the messy
middle, Bye, everyone. Bye.Thanks for taking time with us
(33:04):
in the messy middle. Word ofmouth remains most powerful way
for people to find us. If thisepisode sparked something for
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someone else who's navigatingthe in between. Do you have
ideas for future episodes ortopics you'd like us to explore.
You can find our feedback format the messymiddle matters.com
(33:26):
or in the show notes. Thank youfor joining us on this journey.
This work is better when we doit together, until next time
you.