265 ❤️ Sex & Relationships: How to Bridge the Desire Gap with Tarah & E.J. Kerwin

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Tarah Kerwin (00:00):
We're like the hope holders when people don't have hope.
And then going through my, you know, midlife
perimenopause, like hopelessness is like a
thing. Like, there's times where you're just like, is this ever. Like, when
is this gonna get better? But I
also. So I can have that empathy of how people
show up in relationship despair. But

(00:21):
then right when I. We. We always say this
when, when you're. When you're in a relationship
and you feel alone, it's worse than being
single, you know? But when you can have this
relationship and it feels good, then all the
other stressors out there, it's going to be easier to
handle, you know? And that's why
I'm handling this probably better than I

(00:43):
would if I. Yeah.

>> E.J. Kerwin (00:44):
Because we're more connected than we've been. So we're dealing with
it. It's not pulling us apart. If anything,
it's bringing us closer together.

>> Wendy Valentine (00:52):
Hey, midlifers. Welcome to the Midlife Makeover
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(01:15):
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(01:38):
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(01:59):
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Welcome to the Midlife Makeover Show. I'm

(03:03):
Wendy Valentine, and today we have
a fantastic episode lined up for you with
two, two incredible guests.
Tara and E.J. kerwin, the dynamic
duo behind relationship renovation.
They are relationship experts and founders of a
thriving counseling practice in Tucson,
Arizona, where they help couples strengthen

(03:25):
and transform the relationships with empathy,
communication, and connection. Through their
Relationship Renovation Counseling center
podcast and their at home program, which we're going to
talk about today, they're providing powerful
tools to couples around the world to help
them create deeper, more fulfilling
partnerships. We'll be diving into a topic

(03:48):
that so many couples experience but
often struggle to talk about. Desire
disparity. Have you ever. Let me ask you this.
Have you ever felt like you and your partner, are on
different pages when it comes to intimacy?
Maybe you're the one feeling rejected, or
perhaps you're feeling guilty for not wanting
intimacy as much as your partner does.

(04:10):
Well, Tara and EJ are here to share
their expert advice on how to open up meaningful
conversations, build intimacy beyond
sex, and create small yet powerful
connections that can bridge the gap between high
desire and low desire partners.
If you've ever felt the frustration, confusion, or

(04:31):
disconnect in your relationship around this topic,
you're not alone. And today's episode will provide
the insights and tools you need to navigate it with
love and understanding.
So, without further ado, please welcome
Tara and E.J. kerwin to the show.

>> Tara Kerwin (04:47):
That might be my favorite introduction.

>> E.J. Kerwin (04:50):
Love the energy ever.

Ah. So thank you, Wendy. We're so happy to be
here. That was awesome.

You are so welcome. Isn't that nice? We should just, like, record
those and then you just play it when you wake up in the morning.

>> E.J. Kerwin (05:01):
You know, exactly. Like a hype
song.

Yeah. Also like to bring that lightness to
something that can feel so hopeless to so many
couples. I feel like that energy
is what's needed to, kind of. Right. Be able
to even begin the conversation. Because we see
a lot of couples who have to deal with that disparity and they
feel really hopeless.

So.
Yeah, let's start there. What is this? the
desire disparity. Explain what that means.

>> E.J. Kerwin (05:31):
I mean, this is something that, that so many couples
come in with you. know, one of the things that couples love when they
talk to us is that, you know, a lot of times
it's stuff that we can directly relate to.
And so they don't feel like, oh, my God, I'm
the only one who's dealing with. You know, it's. It's just the fact
that oftentimes, right at the beginning of a

(05:51):
relationship, the fireworks are. Are going off,
and both people have that. That
excitement level. And, you know, you just feel
it's easy. You know, sex and intimacy
are so easy at the beginning of a relationship
oftentimes. And then, you know,
life gets complicated and there's. There's
big changes that happen, and there's kids, and

(06:13):
there's all kinds of things that happen.
And. And it's inevitable that.
That one person becomes the high desire
partner, and. And one person becomes the lower desire
partner. And then figuring that out is
a problem.

And it changes too, throughout. Like, right.
Because I know when each and I met, I was the higher desire partner. And
then after the twins were born, I was like, don't even look at me.
Like, it changes throughout. but the
one thing that we recognize is that people, the couples
don't talk about it. They don't talk about the changes or the
transitions. So now it's just the. This
disappointment or this, like, anxiety,

(06:51):
like, oh, my partner wants to have sex. And I don't know.
And so we really help couples to
soften it and start to talk about what it's like for
each of them, because both of them are suffering when that
disparity is there, but they don't talk about it. They
really just start to blame each other. And then they come into
our center, which we're so grateful for, and
just let them know, like, first of all, this is normal. And this happens

(07:14):
to almost every single couple out there. We just
don't have the skills to talk about it because it's really
vulnerable. most of us weren't taught how to talk about
intimacy and our needs and our wants
when we're younger or just like, you know, sex is great and
it's supposed to feel good, and if you do it a lot, that's awesome. Like,
really, that's what we get. And so we

(07:34):
going through our own, I mean,
constant. Right. We've been together for what, 14 years?
Okay. I was like, got that right.
I feel like, right. God, universe gives us
what we try to take and learn
from, and then we can give back to others. And so
we've had to deal with the postpartum now,

(07:54):
perimenopause. And we were
just really stuck in it. Yet here's two therapists, right, that
have the skills. And that's when we were just
compelled to, like, do what we could talk about
the things. And then that's when we opened up our counseling center. Because
I said, if two of us, ej are having a difficult time
navigating this. And I've been a marriage therapist for over 20

(08:15):
years. I said, we have to help couples in our
community. So it was from that
that we grew in this way to help
so many couples around the world feel normal
and not broken, and that it takes
skills to navigate this. It's not that it's
organic in our body. Like, oh, I'm going to let my partner know that I
feel really rejected. Like, no, we

(08:37):
don't do that. So.

Yeah.

And that was.

No, that's awesome. And I was just thinking, too,
like, I mean, every day we're different just
individually, right? Like, not every day. We wake up the
same feeling, the same. We have bad days, we have
good days. And then, of course, that affects the,
relationship. And then we're not always on the same
page all day, every single day.

(09:03):
And, yeah, like, one person might be stressed because
of a meeting coming up. One person is dealing with
hormones, one person's dealing with the kids,
or there's all sorts of things going
on individually and then
collectively. And then you've got like, oh,
oh, yeah, there's that sex piece, the intimate
part that we're supposed to like, oh, yeah.

Ah.

You know, and then sometimes I feel
like. I mean, I guess I can only speak for myself in this,
but sometimes you end up like, oh, you do
feel bad. Like, oh, my gosh, I've been working so much, I probably
should go ahead and. And have sex, even though I'm not
feeling like it. Yeah. instead of just opening up the
conversation and saying, hey, you know what? I'd rather just
cuddle on the couch. That would be great.

>> E.J. Kerwin (09:46):
I mean, I think that's like one of the. That's like. The big thing is
there's so many contributing
factors. You know, there's so many things going on as
far as, like, you said, stress and life
changes and then maybe dysfunctional
communication after a while
or emotional disconnect, connection. But
sex is the thing where it's like the, It's the

(10:09):
major symptom. You know, it's the thing where
couples come in and they're like, you know, we
haven't had Sex in six months or a year
or. It's. It's so infrequent.
And. And so it's. It's something that we
kind of help them untangle of. Of like,
understanding. Like, this isn't one thing, you
know, this is a collection of. You know, they're

(10:31):
like. Like when we have a kid, you know, we. We.
It's an explosion.
And our life, you know, becomes way more
complicated in literally M. 24
hours. And we divide and conquer. You know, like,
Tara stayed home and she dealt
with the twins and. And she and I took on
all of her clients. And, you know, and we

(10:53):
survived and we got through it, but there was
like this misalignment where we were just pulling apart
and pulling apart. But luckily, you
know, we were creating this center. We
had to practice things that slowly brought us
back together. But it took a. It took a lot, a lot
of effort. It took a long time.

And it's still intentional, right? We. We have to have
our daily check ins. We have to talk about all
this stuff, especially me going through perimenopause.
but I think what, like, a lot of couples don't realize is that both
of them are both feeling,
like, sad and some grief around
it. They just. It's not expressed.

(11:33):
And so when we get to help couples express what that
grief is like. I know for me, I
was grieving that I didn't have, like,
sexual energy anymore. I was so
sad. But all I knew was, like, I didn't
know how to talk about it. And so I would just, like, avoid ej And I
didn't want date nights because that felt.

>> E.J. Kerwin (11:51):
Yeah, I was like, the source of the problem. Because if I,
If I wanted to engage in that way, I was
confronting you with your grief and you were
like, stop doing that. Like, stop. I mean, there were times where we had conversations
where you were just like, just pretend I'm broken. Pretend. Like, that
doesn't work anymore.

China's broken. Okay.

>> E.J. Kerwin (12:08):
You know, and. And so. Which was hard for me because I was like,
okay, you're broken. Like,
what do I do with that? Like, you know.

Yeah, it's interesting that you said that.

About like, that pressure of like, okay, let's go on a
date. And it's almost like expected, even if you're like,
even back when you're dating, right. And then even when you're
married, like, we're gonna go on a date. And then
afterwards, you know, like, it's like, oh,
but maybe we shouldn't go on a date then.

Yeah, I Mean, the biggest thing EJ and
I had to do was recognize the difference
between emotional intimacy and physical
intimacy. And I wanna say this is just with more of
like, the, like, male, female, like, for whatever
reason, right? There's more of that, like,
physical intimacy energy with the,
male. And for me, like, I just need to feel connected

(12:55):
and loved and snuggled. But when we don't talk about
it and EJ doesn't have that, like, emotional
safety to open up to. Cause he's just feeling
rejected and he's feeling unloved and he's feeling invisible and
he's feeling not liked. Like, that's so hard
for me to, like, ask and make those
requests because he's like, well, you're you. I just feel like I'm

(13:16):
not seeing. Seen it also. Why should I do this for you?
And so that was our biggest work was like, EJ softened
up where I felt like his energy. It,
didn't have that pressure anymore. Because before
that, before he was really doing that work for himself. I
could feel it. I would be like, wearing this cute outfit. I'm like,
oh, he's looking like he wants to undress

(13:36):
me. And so, I'm just not gonna wear cute
underwear anymore.

>> E.J. Kerwin (13:39):
Like, well, and it was interesting because, like, you had all this
focus on, like, the sexual side. And I
heard what you said a lot, which was like, I need to feel
safe. It needs to be like this emotionally
positive environment between us. And then, like, I would
walk in the door and like, literally just my presence
would. Would. Would elicit, like,

(13:59):
resentment and. And frustration. And I was just like,
well, how do I create that environment for you if
my mere existence seems to,
like, like, repulse you?

You know, we've worked through that thing, guys.

>> E.J. Kerwin (14:12):
We've worked. I mean, it was. But, that's the thing with couples that
we. Them tuned into is like, these
are not quick solutions, you know, And. And a lot of it
wasn't. A lot of it was tied the dynamics
between the two of us. But so much of
it was about both of our internal
work. You know, it was like. Like, for me, it was a lot around,

(14:32):
you know, around understanding my own defensiveness
and my own, like, ways that I would shut off
during conflict. And, you know, and every
couple has their sort of, like, intricate soup
of who they are when they come together.
You know, we try to disentangle that and help them
gain insight and honestly become

(14:53):
empathetic. I became. There were, like, key moments in our
relationship where I feel like my empathy level,
like, grew Significantly, because
I just, we had long conversations, I understood
things that were going on for Tara that I didn't
understand, you know, prior to that moment.

It's interesting with intimacy how it can
feeling one sided, especially when
it's not talked about. You think it's all about,
okay, he's not interested in me, he's not
attracted to me, there must be something wrong with me
or I'm not like, it's, it's I, I, I. Until you
kind of open up those conversations and then you
learn like, oh, I didn't know you were actually

(15:33):
feeling that way and you. He didn't know I was feeling
this way. So it's, it's interesting that
you, know, it does seem like in the beginning, I, think of
any issue it's always very one sided and a
tendency to probably point the finger. Like it's, it's because of
him or it's because of her that this is, this
situation is like this.

Oh yeah. When we're uncomfortable, we still want to blame
other people. It can't be me.

>> E.J. Kerwin (15:58):
Well, it's so much easier in some ways to like, look
and say, like, well, if you would just be nicer,
then I would be able to like, back
off. You know, it's, it's easier because, like, she's in front of
me. I can see, I can see her and I can.
And I feel like I can, you know, interact
with my environment and change it to make

(16:18):
myself feel better. And it's much more confusing
to look inward and be like, what's happening
for me? You know, what is this? Instead of focusing on
ways in which I'm being rejected,
I need to look in and be like, why am I so uncomfortable with that?
like, why am, why is that triggering my insecurity
and how can I work through that? So even if she

(16:38):
does say, hey, I'm not interested, or,
or hey, this, you just have to write this off for a while.
That I can be like, okay, okay, because that's about
you and that's your request and I love you
and I'm willing to, you know, I'm willing
to work through this with you.

Hence the eyebrow plucking. That wasn't our eyebrow
plucking. Like, honey, I'm willing to pluck your eyebrows and groom
you. Like, that is what I can give to you intimately right now. And
he loved it. We were like little monkeys grooming each other.
I mean, I was like, here's what I literally can
do. Because my body liter, literally, literally. Wendy
felt completely numb And I do want to

(17:15):
say something about, you know, I know
that. And we've worked with a lot of couples around this where there's
just like, oh, it's been two weeks. And I know, like, they're going to be,
like, pressuring me, so I'm just going to like, give in
and just do that thing. And it
actually, like, what we found is it just leads to
so much internal resentment to the partner who's
just, you know, kind of. What's the word I want to

(17:38):
use?

>> E.J. Kerwin (17:38):
Just surrendering.

Surrendering. And then we notice, because we do a lot of somatic work with
a couple couples, too. Like, when we are going through our
intimacy series with couples, like, their
bodies are telling the story of, like, I wasn't open
to you. I was just doing this as, like, a chore,
a task. And like, so when. Even when they're, like,
starting to touch or whatever, it's like, you know, your

(17:59):
nervous system goes into, like, almost flight, fight or
freeze. And so we have to help couples do
safety containers with intimacy. Like, make sure that
your little central nervous system is
not all jammed up when your partner
is touching you and massaging you. Like, so if you guys
can just do five minutes of touch and
making, an agreement, there's no sex. Right. We have to

(18:22):
do a ton of safety containment in order to build
that intimacy back up with a lot of couples where
intimacy has
been ruptured, but it's also this beautiful
process because their whole body now is responding in a different
way. You know, it's just that narrative that, like,
sex is a chore. That's not true. That
if we don't have sex, our relationship is broken. That's not

(18:45):
true. But my goodness, can our brains make those
narratives very quickly?

>> E.J. Kerwin (18:49):
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, there's beliefs that, you hear
from other people, friends, family,
social media, and then you start to think, oh, my gosh, there's something
wrong. Or maybe there's not anything wrong. Maybe, I
mean, there could be, but it's just getting. Getting
it out into the open.
I want to say you. You mentioned something earlier about
you not feeling like, that, that feminine

(19:12):
energy. And. And at the same time, you
were, like, wanting to feel that feminine
energy again and that sexuality. And at the same
time, you're, like, trying to turn it back off. And so you're.
You're kind of going back and forth. And I love what you
said that. It's like, if you, like, okay, maybe
you're. You're wanting to. To kind of get back into Your

(19:32):
femininity and feel that. Put on the cute panties
or the cute little outfit or whatever. But with
having that, like, okay, I just want to do that and
feel that way without, like, let's just make
an agreement. We're not having sex, though. Like, just to
be able to kind of step into your feminine power
without that pressure of

(19:53):
having sex.

It's.

Or maybe you do.

Like, I mean, I. I mean, I do it all the time now because
I'm trying to. Especially going through perimenopause. And, like,
my progesterone was zero. I mean,
like, what happened to my body? What happened to my brain?
I'm doing anything and I. And everything to just feel
that because I'm such a feminine person with
that energy, it's like, why EJ fell in love with me. Like, I would

(20:17):
exude that. And now I'm like, I'm a dry piece
of toast that's burned.
So anything that I can do
to get that feminine, whatever. And I feel so
safe with ej. Ej, thank you, really, because
we've gone through a lot.
it's because of that we can do this.

(20:39):
and it means the world to me because I don't have to hide
it or feel pressure. And it
did take a lot of work, but. And we see with
our other couples, there's so much hope. And I feel like
couples give up too easily
because it's that whole, like, the grass is greener or something.
And it's like, I'm so thankful that I have this

(20:59):
partner who's willing to go through the depths of
menopause hell and whatever it
is that I'm trying to learn from and also accept it
because, I would feel really alone in it
if I didn't have you in this way. And I
feel like so many people out there are suffering
and they feel alone in it. They can just help

(21:19):
each other, like, hold compassionate
space. It's like, pretty incredible because I
truly don't know how I would feel without
EJ in my corner, because the
depression and anxiety, I never even knew.
Like, I thought postpartum was bad after twins,
like the hell. It's like an every two hour
thing. I'm just like, huh?

>> E.J. Kerwin (21:41):
Yeah. I mean, I think,
I think partners of the person, you know, the. The.
The partner that's the more high desire,
you know, really has to, like, take a deep look
at what their commitment is. You know,
for me, there were, like, a couple of big, like, breakthrough
moments. Like, it's. It's been a.
You know, years now. But there was just a moment where I was like, this

(22:04):
is. I have to accept. We have this whole
short module on, acceptance versus
resignation, you know, like, that. I think
I had been in resignation that just like, well, you know,
whatever. I guess there's nothing I can do. I guess I just,
you know, I just accept that I'm This. There's this
one aspect of our relationship that just isn't going to

(22:24):
happen. And I moved into acceptance
of, like, you know, this is where it is right now.

Yeah.

>> E.J. Kerwin (22:30):
And. And I know I love her.
And if it's. If what I have right now is that
we lay in bed together and we sleep together,
and. And we. Wonderful
conversations on Saturday nights out on.
Out by the pool, I'm okay with that.
And, you know, and. And that. And so that was like, my

(22:51):
first, like, breakthrough moment was just like,
whatever I have right now is
enough. And. And I'm hopeful and trusting
that it's going to change, but this is. This is
enough, you know, and then. And then the next
level was. Was then it. Then it
took a lot of pressure off, because even
now, you know, I mean, I don't know. I don't

(23:14):
even know what, you know, is a. Is
a healthy frequency and,
you know, or whatever of, like, how often you should.
But I just don't think about it anymore, you know, or if I
do, I. We talk about it. Like, we're like, hey, you know,
what's going on? And I don't think Tara feels the pressure. The
pressure anymore. But it took.

(23:34):
It was like. Some of it was definitely, you know,
interpersonal, where we had to talk about it and make
it normal. Talking about sex and deal with
the. The. The disruption that. That might.
That might bring on. If it triggered Tara, or if it
triggered me.

Yeah.

>> E.J. Kerwin (23:52):
But then a lot of it was just, like, I had to, like, work through the
process on my own and figure out my own
insecurities and, And figure
out my own ways. Maybe I avoided talking about because I didn't
want to create conflict.

Well, and it's. It just reminds me, because we've had so
many couples were like, if we don't start having
more sex, I'm gonna go outside of the relationship. And it's like,
to use it as a threat. And I'm like, well, hang on.
Like, we can't. Like, let's just make an agreement. We can't use that as a
threat right now. Let's do this work. But it's like, that's where
people go, like, if you can't meet my needs. I will. I mean, we

(24:25):
have so much infidelity at our center, and we
have so much healing through it, so that's amazing. But it's like,
don't. Don't go there first. Let's try.
Yeah.

I mean, there's like. I think a lot of couples, they make, like,
such strict guidelines whether, you know, whether
it's or not. I mean, they're just like, okay, if
this isn't happening in X amount of time, then, boom.
Like, wait, just relax. Like, you
know, it's like anything in life, right?

>> E.J. Kerwin (24:51):
Like, take the pressure off, right? Like, that adds like,
God. Is that gonna help?

Yeah. I think the. The word you said earlier that was key
was acceptance. And I. I think of, like,
acceptance. It's been. It was my word last year.
Acceptance and surrendering. Right.
Like, I think a lot of times we think waving the white
flag is a sign of weakness, but it's actually a sign of
strength and just taking a deep
breath. Okay. And I. I

(25:18):
find that when we quiet
our minds and our hearts and
emotions and. And our physical
energies, we actually can hear
more, like, with. Within ourselves, most
importantly, and then within our
relationships. Yeah.

Like the true sticker on your water bottle. Let that
go.

Let that go. If you're watching on
YouTube. Oh, man. Out.
When in doubt, own it. Out.

>> E.J. Kerwin (25:49):
Yeah, it's. It's so. It's so interesting, though. It's, It's
paradoxical, though, you know, because it's. And. And
the. The. The line between it being healthy and
it being unhealthy are so close. Because on some
level, surrender. Surrender is
good. Because it's like, okay, I'm just letting go this. I'm not gonna, like,
chew on it constantly in my mind. I'm not gonna

(26:10):
focus on this constantly. But it's not
surrender. And, like, I give up.

Yeah.

Right, Right.

>> E.J. Kerwin (26:17):
And that's the important differentiation for
people is, like, because if I give up,
then Tara feels like I give up on her,
but if I surrender and I say, like, you know, I'm just. I'm
letting go of this, and I'm focusing on what we do have.
And then. But we're going to continue to talk about
this, right? We're going to continue

(26:38):
to have healthier,
and healthier conversations. Because the truth
of the matter is in that. In that desired
discrepancy, neither person is
in an enviable place. But yet, like
Tara mentioned before, both people
think the other person is in the better position. You
know, that terror is like, well, I wish I had

(27:00):
sex drive like you. Yeah.

Ah.

>> E.J. Kerwin (27:02):
And then, you know, on some level, I'm like, well, I wish I could just be
the one who found a way to
gain sex drive back. Like, I'm just sitting here with
it with nothing to do with it. Right.

Yeah.

>> E.J. Kerwin (27:13):
You know, and there. And that's where we have to get into, like,
empathy of, like, you know, God, like, tell me
more.
What's it like for you?

And I know one concept I would love your listeners
to hear. And we had, a guest speaker on
our podcast, I believe it was Dr.
Jesser Zimmerman, called Uncompromised
Intimacy. She wrote a book on it. And I remember when I heard
that, it blew my mind. I'm like, what is uncompromised
Intimacy? She's like, it's about right.
EJ used to, like, not say anything to me,

(27:44):
like, God, I think your butt looks so good today, girl. Because he
was like, I don't want to. Like, she's already stressed out.
And so he's compromising his own
intimacy. His own. We call him,
you know, frisky scale, because he's
caretaking me. Right. And then if you start to
do that, then you're developing a codependent,
unhealthy relationship. You're using your sense of

(28:05):
individuation. So we've gotten to a
great point, and we help our couples do this. We're like, I want
EJ to be like, dang, girl, you are locked.
Smoke it. Not that he uses that kind of language. M. But. And I
want to be like, thank you so much. Like, I still want him to
want me, even if my Frisky Scales a
zero. I don't want him to, like, caretake me

(28:25):
because I love that. I know that he's still
attracted to me. and couples don't
do that. They start to write that. Eggshell walking.
And so when that idea of uncompromised intimacy,
this was a few years ago, I feel like that's
so freedom. You're not losing your
autonomy or your own. Right. You can still say,
hey, I've got to let you know, my frisky scales

(28:48):
a nine and yours is a zero. That's really freaking hard
for me. And I'd be like, I'm so sorry. Like, and
can I help you out with anything there? Thanks for sharing, but that's
kind of the conversations we have now. So we don't have.
So we can still be ourselves and. And
not create that compromised intimacy,
if you will.

>> E.J. Kerwin (29:07):
I don't know. Can I Share something, like, funny.

Oh, well, I don't know.

>> E.J. Kerwin (29:10):
This is like a peri. Menopause thing and, like, a discrepancy
thing. So, you know. You know the hot flashes, right?

Oh, my God.

>> E.J. Kerwin (29:17):
So, like, I'll wake up in the morning, and Tara's,
like, naked in bed. I'm like, hey. And then she's like,
no, I'm sweating. That's why they're off.

Back off.

>> E.J. Kerwin (29:26):
Oh, okay. This is not, Okay. All right.
We got different, We've got different perceptions of this
moment.

She's like, you can wait eight minutes. and it might be
gone. I don't know.

Do not touch me, buddy.

>> E.J. Kerwin (29:41):
Don't even get close.

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So question for you in the high desire

(30:46):
versus low desire, are. Are the high
desire typically the ones that are more
physically attractive, like, have that. More of
that physical energy, and the low desire is
more on the emotional side of the
spectrum?

>> E.J. Kerwin (31:02):
I think it's just. I don't think there's any, like,
real, you know, breakdown of
it because.

Okay.

>> E.J. Kerwin (31:09):
Just because there's so many contributing factors, you know,
in.

Yeah.

>> E.J. Kerwin (31:13):
Stress. You know, like, stress is when we're
all susceptible to stress. And
stress, like, diminishes sex drive
for. For many people because you're just. Central nervous system
is so taxed. I don't know. Like, what do
you think?

I mean, normally, right. High desire
partner is one that wants to engage in physical intimacy
more often. And the lower desire person just does not
have those sexual feelings, those desires, like the high desire
partner does. And I can relate to
that well, because in the beginning of our relationship, I was
constantly wanting to, you know, pounce on
ej and he. Right. He had been through a wicked

(31:51):
divorce, and I think it was just different
for him. And so still probably working through his own
stuff. And, I remember Thinking like, oh my gosh,
like, is he just not into me, like, as the high
desire partner? Because the physical stuff
wasn't there. I mean, my thinking has
changed and now that I'm on the other side, the low

(32:11):
desire partner, like, yeah, it's just like my little
feelings, like, to engage in that physical
like, way, the clinging, like the
being together in your, with your body,
it's just not, I mean, it's happening more organically
now, but it's just not there. So I feel like
the sexual energy piece to me is like, high

(32:31):
desire, low desire.

>> E.J. Kerwin (32:32):
I think there's definitely though, a, a
dynamic within heterosexual
relationship where,
where men are not as an
emotionally connected as
their wives want them to be
and that, that is sustainable in the beginning
for some reason. Like, it's, it's like, it's

(32:54):
manageable. But over years
of, of the, of the husband not showing up
in that way of not, not
understanding what he's feeling other than like kind of
happy,
grumpy, annoyed. You know, he's got
like three emotions and he doesn't even express
those in a clear way. That, that

(33:16):
after a while the wife just feels so
disconnected and, and unheard and
doesn't know what the heck is going on for their
partner. That, that then their, their
sexual desire goes away. Because it just, it's, it's that,
it's that emotional safety, like, and that. And that
that phrase is confusing to most
men. They're like, well, they,

(33:39):
they start off by saying, I don't feel safe.
And and then the husband's like, what, what are you
talking about? Like, you know, I, you know, I barely
raised my voice. I've never been physical with you.
And then we sort of, flesh it out a little bit. Like
what she's talking about is emotional safety, that, that
she understands what's going on with

(33:59):
you, that, that you're emotionally attuned, that you
notice her feelings, that you're willing to listen to
them without telling her she shouldn't have
them. You know, that's, that's a big
thing that, that needs to be rebuilt is like,
okay, we're emotionally connected. That feels
safe. And so now, yeah, I can connect again with

(34:19):
you. With you sexually.

Yeah. I would think at the beginning of most relationships, it's kind of
like me, man, you, woman, you know,
me man, your woman. Me, I have the, you know,
the masculine energy, you have feminine energy. And it's a
great opportunity to be able, like, really be very
masculine and very feminine. And then, yeah,
like, as time goes on that. Me, man,

(34:42):
you, woman. Without any of that, like,
like emotional support can kind of
be like the woman's like, ah, I need a little
bit more of that emotion in there, you know, like
to. Yeah, yeah. Get the flame
going about.

Yes.

>> E.J. Kerwin (34:59):
Well, that's. Yeah. And it's confusing to the, to the man because he's
like, well, why. Why weren't we talking about this when we first
got together? Why weren't you tell. I was emotionally
available?

Because you didn't care. You're just like, I could give a.

>> E.J. Kerwin (35:10):
Yeah, yeah, we were just.
But in some ways, you are more
emotionally present at the beginning, even if
you don't have that, that long term skill.
Because, because you, you're so like,
enamored by the person that you're like, asking them about
their past and, and you're learning about their
family and. And then you're

(35:33):
like, okay, well, I basically know everything about you.
So, like, I'm ceasing to be curious.

The new car smell goes away and you're just.

>> E.J. Kerwin (35:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm habituated.
Right.

Yeah. I was just thinking too. And it's
like high desire versus low desire. There's not
a right or a wrong. It's not like the ultimate
goal is to be, you know, high desire.
Right. And it's bad to be low desire.
We toggle. We all do, individually and
collectively. You toggle between the two.

Absolutely. And
how to. And how to be in acceptance of each other
and have very intentional conversations when you
are, whether fluctuating or going
through that very intense low desire,
higher desire.

>> E.J. Kerwin (36:20):
I'm thinking even like in like, episodic things. So we have this thing
where I, I run a boys camp in Maine every summer I
have for the past almost 20 summers. And so we
go back there June, July and August. And
that's a time where terrorist stress level goes down
significantly. I mean, her sex
drive goes up. Right. And. And
there have been times where like, you know, things have been kind

(36:43):
of, you know, not happening in Arizona.
We get there and we. And it goes
up. And then like a week later, like, there's like one
time where Tara wants to mess around. I'm like, like,
I'm like, tired. I've been up all day. And she's like, what's going
on?
I'm like, I'm like, She's like the low desire partner for like
24 hours. And she's like,

(37:04):
hi.

Desire.

>> E.J. Kerwin (37:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The high desire for like 24 hours.
And so it's. So it's Unsettling. I think it's just a
naturally natural thing that it's. It's unsettling
anytime there's a big discrepancy in
that. Even if it's just, like, episodic, it's like,
why don't. I'm feeling this. Why aren't
you feeling this?

Note to self. Because this was a. Not a lot of people
get to go spend their summers in Maine at a
boys camp where your laundry is done for you, where three
meals a day are cooked for you, where you're
living just a tiny cabin on this beautiful lake, and
your children are in camp all day, and
then they're sleeping in their bunks at night. So I literally
from. Right. Managing a staff of 15 and

(37:48):
all the groceries and all the cooking and our four animals.
Like, I go from waking up at
5am and I don't stop until 9pm
to going to Maine, and literally my entire
body is like, what do I do? And all of a
sudden, my sex drive is, like, on.
And so I'm like, what? How do I create

(38:08):
that? When I'm here in Tucson
and I haven't quite figured it out yet.

>> E.J. Kerwin (38:14):
We're thinking virtual reality.

I was gonna say, ej, that's when you get on a plane. That's
why.

But there's three hours. That
balance. Not. Not having no responsibility, but
there's a balance that I know can be achieved.
And that's kind of what I'm trying to do right now. Yoga
and meditation and, like, knowing that, like, I can only
get this much done today. And
I feel like that we don't. We don't get to

(38:41):
have those extreme experiences. Right. Like I said, because
most people don't get to have that. You know,
thankfully, that's why I married you, ej, because you had a job
in Maine. And I could go to. Just kidding. but
recognizing that, like, literally, I thought I was
broken. And then it was like, oh, my God, I'm
so stressed out and
constantly busy and overwhelmed that.

(39:03):
That totally, like, sucks up
any energy for intimacy. And so
there's a part of that too, like, because you'll hear couples,
they'll go on vacation. Like, we had
the best time of our lives. Like, we have sex on
vacation. We're so intimately. Well, guess what? You're on vacation.
All your things are taken care of.

Yeah.

It's really about how to create that healthy
balance as much as you can also when
you're in reality. so I don't have to be,
like, nine months here. Just Just constantly
stressed in my nervous system. And then three. I
mean, I'm grateful for it, but I. That's what I'm. My goal I'm
working towards right now with the two

(39:43):
businesses we own and the four kids and the four animals. I
mean, you know, I mean, you.

Can figure that out, right?
So easy.
you know, I was just thinking though, like we were talking about
acceptance earlier. I'll throw in another a that popped in my
mind is awareness. And like you were saying, it's
like kind of like trying to tap
into yourself and trying to figure out what. What
is it that. What am I feeling and why am I

(40:10):
feeling this and how can I turn this on at
another time? And. And it's. It's the
awareness of how you feel in
yourself and within that relationship.
And. And I would say, most importantly, it's. It's
bringing it out in the open. Right. I mean, I. I'm
curious and I'm sure you probably have an answer for
this. Why is it such a struggle for

(40:31):
couples to have these conversations?
It's one of the most important topics, I think, within a
relationship. But why aren't they talking about
it?

>> E.J. Kerwin (40:40):
I mean. I'll take the first part.

Okay.

>> E.J. Kerwin (40:44):
I mean, the first part is we're just not taught. I mean, there, you
know, we. Most
people's programming around sex is.
It's bad, don't bad and
dangerous. Don't do it until you're married.
And then it's a beautiful, wonderful thing that you should
do frequently. you know, and so we
just have no context. Nobody teaches us

(41:05):
how to talk about it. Nobody teaches us that
it's a normal thing to talk about it. Nobody helps
you understand that it's not just a physical thing, it's an
emotional thing. You know, it's just like we're not
a cultured in that way. So that's our foundation. You
know, if there's any topic that's complex that we're never taught
how to. How to speak about it, we're going to struggle

(41:26):
once we're supposed to do it.

And I, you know, our entire model that we take
our couples through is through an attachment lens
theory. And it's about. And
we learn how to regulate our emotions from our
environment, right? And if we're turn. If
we're like, if we learn to like, don't have
uncomfortable emotions and like, just you
should be happy for what you have, whatever it is. We

(41:50):
learn how to just put up our
walls. And so now we get anxious attachment,
like, oh my God, like, that neediness,
like, if they leave me, if they don't call me, like, something bad's
gonna happen. And so there's that anxious attachment or the avoidant
attachment. Like, oh, this emotion is coming at me. I have got
to like, push that away with a ten foot
pole. obviously with more trauma

(42:12):
backgrounds, there's disorganized attachment. And so we
learn emotion regulation, how to not
regulate. And then uncomfortable feelings come
up as adult and intimate relationships, because this
relationship is unique, unlike any other.
And it's like, what. What is that feeling?
This must be about you. See you later.

(42:33):
I mean, we don't learn how to regulate. And so we really
do try to. We do a whole going through a genogram
and a timeline. Like we take that child from in the
womb until the day they met. And we really help
understand the regulation system. And then
we do a ton of tools in session
where people can get in their window of tolerance. Like, you

(42:53):
don't have to block that out anymore. It is safe to feel
angry. Anger is okay. It is safe to feel
sadness. Sadness is okay. And once
the therapist really creates that safety in the
room, then they can go outside and have
those awesome conversations
and not hide from it or put
their survival instincts on. So that's

(43:15):
a big part of it. Attachment.

>> E.J. Kerwin (43:17):
Well, and you have, you know that that
balance of both individuals that, like, not
only does, like, Tara have to become
okay feeling those things and expressing things,
I have to be okay hearing
it and validating it and not.
And not becoming reactive myself or

(43:37):
not taking it personal or trying
to solve the problem. You know that that's where
it gets complicated is both people moving
towards what. What we want to help couples get to, which is a
secure attachment.

Yes.

>> E.J. Kerwin (43:51):
Like, I can express my feelings. Even
if they're complex, you're gonna accept
them. They're not. They're not personal. Or even if they are, you
can handle it. And it creates this, like, feedback
loop of, like, connection and, and
love and support. And we are becoming our
best selves together.

And the relationship isn't in a threatened mode.

I'm so glad that you said that because I was just trying to think. I was like,
there's, you. You might know this. There's a psychologist that said
it's like, basically you learn the most about
yourself through a relationship. Like, being in a
relationship is how you. Yeah. Do you know who that was? Who
was that?

>> E.J. Kerwin (44:28):
I don't know who that is. But we've. We've indirectly quoted
them, like thousands.

I can't I don't know if it's the one with internal family systems or one
of the. Anyways, but it's so true.
Like, I mean, you couldn't just sit in
a cave and evolve into. You
know what I mean? That would be great. We could just sit there.

>> E.J. Kerwin (44:46):
It doesn't make sense too right.
It's like this person who I was the most comfortable
with is now the person who makes me feel the
most uncomfortable. So then something must be
broken. But yet everybody's dealing with it.
Like nobody confronts me with my own
insecurities and triggers my
emotions at such a heightened level as

(45:08):
Tara.

You're welcome.

>> E.J. Kerwin (45:09):
No one.

No one.

>> E.J. Kerwin (45:10):
And so I can look at her as a source of a problem
or I can look at her as like, wow, she's.
This is an opportunity. Whatever this is. I'm feeling
this is worth exploring and, and
talking to her about.

We.

>> E.J. Kerwin (45:23):
We.

Yeah, we call each other like our blind spots. And in the
lobby when you walk in, we have this big chalkboard sign
that says, our partner is our greatest teacher. Be
patient for the lessons.

You just took the words out of my mouth. I was like so proud of myself. I was
gonna say, oh, it's like your greatest teacher. Yeah. But it's true,
right? Like would they. Whoever triggers you the
most is your greatest teacher. Like those are where
the lessons are.

Yes. But staying with that, in the society we live in
today, with all that instant gratification and
like, I don't have to deal with or there's somebody else out there. That's
where, you know, our, I mean our
passion right now is to like, obviously, like, not everybody
should be together, but to do the work. to
have that compassion for each
other's suffering and then make your decision.

(46:11):
Right. We 80% of our couples are like, it's either this or a
divorce. I'm like, great. We're going to take you
through this process of having more clarity because right now it's
like out of fear. So there's this like, threat. So why
don't you make that decision after understanding all of
it? Because now it'll be out of clarity. That's. It's not about staying
together, but it's about making a

(46:31):
really big choice with all of the
knowledge that you can have and. Understanding
and empathy that you can have. And then. Right. Whether it's for your
children or whatever, now you're being, now you're
growing in a way that feels good instead of like, because guess
what? It's going to show up in the Next relationship, if you don't take
care of it, it. And it does. Right? Third.

(46:51):
Second divorce. Wait, first marriages, it's
almost 50%. Second is
63%. Third marriage is 80, 70
something percent divorce rate. Why I could
marry someone totally opposite of EJ and
if I don't understand what my stuff is and do
that processing, I, could marry someone totally different. And
it's going to show up in a different way. And so

(47:14):
that's how I get the couples to be like, hey, it's going to take like, like
six months of hell. Like it's gonna be awesome too.
But like, don't you want to m. Be able to have a selling point?

>> E.J. Kerwin (47:23):
You're about to go through hell with us. Buckle
up.

No, it's just, it's not linear. It's not like you start couples counseling
that's like, oh, this is awesome. It's like we really untangle,
things in a really healthy way. But it's not,
you know, But I feel like that clarity versus fear.
Like trying to make this choice out of
feeling super threatened and not wanting to be uncomfortable. Or do
you want to be able to get uncomfortable and then be like, oh,

(47:47):
okay, right. And we found like most couples
really, I mean you'll.
It's. We live like a couple blocks from our
office and I will drive by every day and you see
couples hugging in the parking lot.
Our business is so overwhelming and we love it.
I'm like, that's why we keep doing this. Because

(48:07):
there's so much healing. And I just feel so
proud of like our work that we've done. It started off with that
and all of our therapists are amazing in our center and we're
like the hope holders when people don't have hope.
M. And then going through my, you
know, midlife perimenopause, like
hopelessness is like a thing. Like there is times where you're just like,

(48:27):
is this ever like when is this gonna
get better? But I also. So I can have that
empathy of hope. People show up in
relationship despair. But then right when I.
We always say this when, when you're.
When you're in a relationship and you feel alone,
it's worse than being single, you
know. But when you can have this relationship and. And it

(48:50):
feels good, then all the other stressors out there, it's going to
be easier to handle.
You know, and that's why I'm handling this
probably better than I would it if I. Yeah.

>> E.J. Kerwin (49:00):
because we're more connected than we've Been. So we're dealing with
it.

Yeah.

>> E.J. Kerwin (49:03):
Ah, it's not pulling us apart. If anything, you know what, too
closer together.

Yeah. And it's like doing the work
on any relationship. Like,
worst case scenario, like, let's say you decide, okay, this
is not, this relationship's not going to work out. We're getting a
divorce. Well, I mean, at least you worked
on yourself and you dug up some of those things
that needed to be dug up and worked on. And
then, you're a better person.

(49:30):
You're. You're better in all your relationships. Because that's
the thing. It's like again, going back to, like, what you
learn in your own, especially in your intimate
relationships. It affects everything. It affects
fear. It, affects the relationship that you have with your children
and the fact. And the relationship that they will have with
their, you know, partners and their children. I

(49:50):
mean, it's just like this beautiful ripple effect. So it's
like, do the work. Work. Like, do
the work.

>> E.J. Kerwin (49:56):
Sometimes that has to be the starting point for a
couple where they're like, in such despair that we just
say, like, okay, look, we don't know where this is gonna end up. and let's
accept that. Let's accept that we don't know that. But let's
say, like, no matter what, you guys could learn a heck of a
lot from what's going on between the two of you right now.
And so you can, you know, you can just
bail right now and like, like throw,

(50:19):
throw the baby out with the bath water or you
can, you can do some work here and see where
we end up, you know, and both, you know, at the end day.
This is another big thing is like, and if you can both
really focus on you.

Yes.

>> E.J. Kerwin (50:33):
If you can get out of pointing your finger. Let's not
spend these hours here telling,
me what's wrong about the other person. Let's
start every session taking
responsibility for what you can take responsibility
for and appreciating whatever
it was that your partner did that made your life a little bit better
this week.

Yes.

>> E.J. Kerwin (50:54):
And that creates significant shifts if people have
the, like, the willingness and the discipline,
you know, to stick with it.

I would have to say for me, I've been married
twice, divorced twice. And after
that last divorce, I was like, I'm, I'm gonna
divorce him and marry myself. I am going
twice. Work on Wendy. I'm going to take care of
Wendy. We're going to dig up all sorts.

>> E.J. Kerwin (51:19):
Of.

From childhood, 20s, 30s, and
it was the greatest gift I gave to myself
to spend that time. And it was so
awful, but so great at the
same time. And I would not be sitting
here, you know, on this
podcast if I had not done the work.
Work, because I. And I wouldn't be in a

(51:44):
happy, healthy relationship right now if I had not
done the work. But I was like, damn it. I was like, I'm gonna figure
this thing out. and I, I learned so much about,
like there was like this common thread I figured out,
you know, in all my relationships. I was like,
oh, that's why I get all
pissy about this. And I, you know, I, you know,
all the limiting beliefs were just like, boom, boom.

(52:07):
Oh, I got it. Like, it, it's like, like, ding, ding, ding, ding,
ding. Yeah, I
mean, well, suffering shackles us.

>> E.J. Kerwin (52:15):
It sh. Suffering takes options
away and it keeps us constricted. And, and you can
even see it with you is like you have like this freedom. And
the way you express yourself, it's, it's not, it's
not limited. Right. And you can't do that if
you haven't taken on your suffering. You know, and the thing
about is you understand your suffering, you move through

(52:35):
it, you find new systems that you
create intentionally and then all of a sudden like,
you're like, God dang, I can move. You
know, I can. Or I can just. Yeah, I, I
can, I have freedom. You know, that's. And that's what
we want for individuals, that's what we want for couples, is
we want them to feel free to free in their body,

(52:56):
free in their minds, free in their hearts. I mean,
and then wonderful things happen in their lives.

I even think too. I mean, I pro
therapy. Love, love, love. And even when
something isn't like really bad or really
wrong, I'm still like, still do the work. Like, you're
gonna find more things about yourself and you're gonna evolve
into a better woman, a better man,
have better relationships. Like, it's,
it's always worth it. Always.

Where else can you have like an hour
a week with someone who has no
skin in the game and they just accept you
unconditionally Positive regard. It
feels so good. It feels.

Yeah, I know.

>> E.J. Kerwin (53:40):
and the more they know you, the more they're able to provide
you insights that you just might
not see, you know, or not not be able to connect on
your own? So, yeah, it's a powerful relationship
that. Between a therapist and a client or a
coach and a client.

I love it.
Tell me more about the Program. I know you touched on it
a little bit and, and that's what's cool because even if you're
not in Arizona and Tucson or in
Phoenix, you can still do your
program.

Yeah, the. So it's a, the method we
created, it's a very structured approach, but because every
couple is different, it's kind of. Some
couples can work through it in four or six months, some couples it's a couple
years. It's because if there's infidelity and stuff, that's
the in office therapeutic model we
created. I believe once the pandemic hit and we were just,
we were like on a year wait list when it was

(54:32):
crazy. We were like, we have to do
something at home. And so. But we also
know like for the at home version, for couples in
crisis, it won't work. It could be very destabilizing.
Which. We're actually going to start offering coaching sessions this
year globally now that we can. So that's awesome. But
what we did is we tried to create this. It's like 22

(54:52):
lessons at home based on the model at
our Tucson counseling center where it's been very successful.
And if the couple feels like, wow, we can do
this, it is. They explore their attachment history,
their relationship timeline. There's a
communication series, intimacy series,
old story, new story, which is my favorite, like
how were we thinking, feeling behaving

(55:15):
before we started this? You know, they can create
their own goals, mid goal check in and then this
new story where they're going to continue to cultivate this with
their weekly check ins and stuff. But it is just like a
ton of coping skills
interventions, questions to ask each other,
moments of being able to build compassion. And so we

(55:35):
tried to do what we could at an at home version with
couples not. I love it. And we've had awesome
responses globally from it. So it's been really
awesome. We feel really proud of it, you know, don't know.

>> E.J. Kerwin (55:47):
Sorry.

Oh no, you go first.

>> E.J. Kerwin (55:49):
I was gonna say couples don't know how to talk
about these things. And what it does is it's a
week by week. Here's a structured way, here's
eight questions, here's an exercise, here's
a fun thing to do, you know, because
you and your partner are the sort
of clay and you just need, you need some help

(56:09):
in sort of shaping it and putting it together
and, and, and taking those rough edges
off. And so the program just gives the the, the
model. Sorry Tara, she likes model
better than program. the model just gives, gives A
structure for a couple to have really
positive experience experiences and learn more about each other.

Yeah. We try to put in fun things, like six words. If you
finish your at home, what would it feel like and look
like and put it up in the kitchen, where every day you're looking at, like, more
playful, more flirty, whatever those six words are. So
combination of, like, some difficult conversations, because that
has to happen.

Yeah.

But also some really fun things too. So.

Yeah, I want to do it. I'm like, I want to
do it. You know, I was just thinking it's like,
for some people that aren't as gung ho about
going to therapy as I am, it's a great
way to be able to. To do the
work without like, oh, we gotta go talk to a
therapist. Like, and you're doing it at home. It's
comfortable and you're with each other

(57:10):
and you can pause the video and
discuss or whatever.

You know, I love that. And. And the reason why,
because we're hearing right. Really great
feedback. But also there are some couples that, like,
gosh, this would be so great if, like, Taryn EJ
offered some, like, coaching through it because they'll get stuck in a couple
of them. And that's where we were like,
absolutely, we can do. I mean, it hasn't been developed yet,

(57:35):
but it's starting in the next few months. And so
we. We hear back from the community and, like, we
can make that happen. Right. So it's in the work.
So there. There will be again. But if. I
mean, like, you. I'm a fan of therapy. I'm a fan of
a great couples counselor. Like, have that person
that is creating that safety for you, then you get to have

(57:55):
those skills and bring them outside of the therapy
session. That's okay too. There is nothing wrong
with you if you have to go to couples therapy. Nothing.

No, nothing
wrong. Do you know what, too? I saw the price on
your website and I literally, in my mind, I was like, that
is insanely affordable. And on
your bullet point, it literally says
insanely.

>> E.J. Kerwin (58:21):
Subliminal message.

Wait, does it really? Yeah, it does.

It's nothing like that. I was like, it's true. Something like this.

Some. Yeah.

Some phrase like that.

My whole thing is, like, so many couples don't have the
luxury of affording.

Yeah.

Couples therapy. And I wanted to make it.
Trust me. We've had people like, you guys need to. And I'm like,
absolutely not. Like, I want people to be able to have access
to this. And that is important to me
because I know there's other therapists in the community, not the
community, but globally that have programs and they're like
$1300, $1600. I'm like, no, I

(58:55):
just, we offered it free over,
Covid. People were like, what are you doing? I'm like,
I just, this is what I want to do. I want to give back.

Like, I love it. And I did happen to notice
on, on EJ's bio on the website, it
said something about, I think it's the very last line.
It said something about making the world a better place. Like, that's
your, your main purpose. And by doing that, right,
like by creating better relationships, you are
making the world a better place.

>> E.J. Kerwin (59:22):
It's, it's like the first building block of our community.
You know, there's, there's couples, there's
families, there's businesses, there's communities.
It's just, it's a great intervention point
of creating connection that then is going to reverberate
out up.

Thank you so much. You guys are awesome. Thank
you.

So are you.

>> E.J. Kerwin (59:42):
You're really fun.

Thank you. Thank you.

I'll.

When I'm back in Arizona, in
Felicia in the rv,
I'll, ah, have to.

Cruise down and.

It'S so pretty down there. I never make it down to
Tucson though. I always end up like, what is it?
Casa Grande? I, usually go down that way.

>> Tara Kerwin (01:00:02):
45 more minutes. Casa Grande.
We could do an in person interview.

>> E.J. Kerwin (01:00:06):
We're like a UNESCO, like, ah, culinary
city of significance now.

>> Wendy Valentine (01:00:11):
Yes.

>> E.J. Kerwin (01:00:12):
Great food. Great food here.

Arizona is amazing. At least I'll be there. Let's see.
I'll be there in March and April before the
summer hits.

>> E.J. Kerwin (01:00:22):
Good idea. Good idea. We'll take you
out.

Oh yeah. I'm gonna come see you for some baria.

>> E.J. Kerwin (01:00:28):
we're, we're.

>> Tara Kerwin (01:00:29):
You didn't roll your R's.

ah, and I'm still learning Portuguese over here. Oh
my God. so tell us where we can find
you.

>> E.J. Kerwin (01:00:39):
I mean, the easiest thing to do is
relationshiprenovation.com. everything's
there. Our, if you're local, our service is there. You
can get to our online program through that website.
The other thing is that, you know our podcast and
YouTube channel just and, and again, same thing.
Relationship renovation. Check it out. We're putting out
really wonderful like you interviewing amazing

(01:01:01):
people, talking about just how
to cultivate a really loving, caring
relationship with your partner.

Thank you. I'm glad you guys were the guinea pigs
for all of this and you were the.
You were the guinea pigs to make it. Yes.
Good little guinea pigs.

>> Tara Kerwin (01:01:20):
Thank you so much, guys.

Yeah, everyone have a great
day. Did this podcast
inspire you? Challenge you? Trigger you to make a
change, or spit out your coffee laughing? Good.
Then there are three ways you can thank me. Number
one, you can leave a written review of this podcast on
Apple iTunes. Number two, you can take a
screenshot of the episode and share it on the social media

(01:01:44):
and tag me Wendy Valentine.
Number three, share it with another midlifer that
needs a makeover. You know who I'm talking about.
Thank you so much for listening to the show. Get out there
and be bold. Be free.

>> E.J. Kerwin (01:01:58):
Be.

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265 ❤️ Sex & Relationships: How to Bridge the Desire Gap with Tarah & E.J. Kerwin

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