298 💔 Should You Stay or Go? Finding Clarity in Your Marriage with Sharon Pope

Episode Transcript
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>> Sharon Pope (00:00):
If you do not learn the lessons, you're going to

(00:02):
continue to repeat them. It's just as simple as
that. Like, if it's like, I'm just going to blame
him. He's the problem. Get rid of him, problem
solved. Oh no, my friend. You have had a role in
the creation of that experience. And if you don't
solve that, you're going to recreate that
experience over and over again. That's how the
lessons in our lives work. They're going to keep
showing up until we learn them.

>> Wendy Valentine (00:23):
Hey there beautiful. I'm Wendy Valentine, your
host of the Midlife Makeover show, where it's
never too late to wake up to your best life.
Whether you're navigating a career change, empty
nesting, menopause, or wondering what's next,
you're in the right place. Every week I'll bring
you real talk, laughs and inspiring conversations

(00:43):
with experts and extraordinary women who have
transformed their lives from self care and
relationships to starting over and finding
freedom. This is your time to reinvent, rediscover
and reignite the woman you were always meant to
be. So hit that subscribe button and let's rewrite
the rules of midlife. Your new adventure starts

(01:04):
now. If you haven't heard the news yet, my book,
Women Waking up the Midlife Manifesto for Passion,
Purpose and Play is finally here ready for you to

(01:27):
read, soak up the wisdom and and change your life.
This isn't just another self help book. It's a
step by step guide to help you break free from
what's holding you back, rediscover your strengths
and design a life that feels full of purpose, joy
and freedom. Whether you're navigating divorce,

(01:47):
career changes, health struggles, or just that
restless midlife feeling, these seven steps will
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(02:08):
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Just head to womenwakingup.com and one quick
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best selves together.

(02:50):
Welcome back to The Midlife Makeover Show. I'm
your host, Wendy Valentine. And if you've ever
found yourself lying awake at night wondering if
your marriage can be saved or if you're simply
stuck in that foggy, painful place between staying
and going, today's episode is going to speak right
to your heart. Our guest is Sharon Pope, a trusted

(03:12):
relationship expert and certified master life
coach who has helped thousands of women and men
find clarity in their most intimate relationships.
She's the seven time international best selling
author, you go girl behind Stay or Go, a book that
has guided over 300,000 readers through the

(03:32):
hardest decisions of their lives. You may have
seen her work in the New York Times Modern love
column or heard her on her popular podcast, the
Loving Truth. Today, Sharon is here to talk about
how to finally get unstuck in your relationship.
We'll explore what to do when you feel emotionally
alone in a marriage, how to stop the cycle of

(03:55):
disconnection, and why you don't have to make a
decision overnight. But you do deserve peace.
Whether you're trying to fix the struggles or
quietly questioning everything, the this
conversation will leave you feeling seen,
supported, and a little more certain of your next
step. Please welcome Sharon to the show. I always

(04:20):
love that part. You're so fun.

Thank you.

Yes. Thank you for being here. This is so cool. I,
I was telling you before we hit record, always
have like the greatest conversations before I hit
record. This conversation is so needed because I'm
sure I would bet almost every, no matter what age
we probably have all been in that situation where
we're laying in bed staring at the ceiling fan,

(04:46):
watching it go round and round and going, what am
I doing? Should I stay here?

Do it?

Should I. Do I need to work harder at this? What
do I need to do? Do I need good therapy? so it's a
much needed conversation, I think, for everyone.
But my question to you is what. What made you
specifically want to help women at midlife that
are specifically struggling with this issue of do

(05:14):
I stay or do I go now?

well, I found this stay or go, I guess niche, if
you will, like that, like that thing I started
when I started my coaching practice 12 years ago.
I started with helping women coming through
divorce and dating again. It wasn't for me. Then I
went into like breakups and divorce and heartbreak

(05:38):
and all that. And the. I liked that because it,
like, because the thing that I like about coaching
is that you can make massive progress in a short
period of time. So I like the massive progress
piece. but that work is pretty heavy, like when
you're just dealing with heartbreak all day long.
And then I really just found my sweet spot around
stay or go. Because that's what I needed in my

(06:00):
first marriage when I was coming. I mean that was
15 years ago. There weren't, there weren't
podcasts, there weren't all these like, online
trainings. Like, of course there were books. But
there wasn't a lot of conversation around should I
stay or should I go? And so this is really what I
needed when I was going through it. And so that's

(06:20):
why I created it. And then the love of women in
midlife, I mean, I'm just in it myself and I find
it to be the most fascinating time frame in my
life so far. and I just love working with women in
midlife. I just think we're fantastic. Women are
amazing.

I know. Well, it's such a cold transitional phase
of our lives. Like there's so much change going on
and it's such a cool thing because you're like,
ooh, like the possibilities of whether it's
staying or going, whether that's in career,
whether it's friendships, whether it's marriage,
whether like it's our bodies. Like there's so much

(06:57):
going on of like, like there's this frontier
within us.

Like, you know, this midlife and menopause. It's
not just biology. It is biology, of course. but it
is also a real time of reckoning for ourselves, of
like, what do we want?

Yeah.

And what works for us and what doesn't. And now
there's time and space and energy for me to have
my desires and my passions and the things that I
want to pursue in my life. And so it's like women
today at least finally have more choice available
to them in midlife than they. Than like my
mother's generation.

I know. Yeah. This isn't the. Our mother's
midlife. Right. Totally different.

and honestly the divorce statistics play that out.
Yeah.

I think I read something about that the other day.
That the divorce stats for over 50, like it's just
going up and up.

It's doubled in the last 25 years.
And now two thirds of the time it's the woman
asking for the divorce for people over 50. And
that like, is not my parents generation. Like my
mother, she tech like technically.
Depending upon the year and the state that we were
living in at the time, she technically could have,

(08:17):
but logistically and reasonably and logically,
there was no way for her to leave her marriage,
even if she wanted to, which I don't think she
ever did.

But why do you think women feel. Will have that
feeling of being lonely or disconnected in their
marriage and their relationship?

Oh, there's so many reasons. let's talk about a
few biggies. so the most common thing is that,
first of all, no one told us how to do this. Okay?
So, like, when I go through this, you're gonna
hear, you're gonna be like, well, how did I miss
that? Like, oh, so I screwed this up. Like, yeah,
but nobody taught us any of this. So. Yeah. M. One

(08:58):
of the big ones is that when, you know, you get
married and then you start having babies and you,
you create this family and you pour all of your
love, time, attention, energy into. Like, once you
get married, then it's like, either you focus on
work or you focus on family or both. Right. M. And

(09:19):
the marriage, because it's not a problem, it sort
of gets put over here on a shelf. Like, it's fine,
you know, but I got it. I got things to do between
my job and between kids and all of the. And taking
care of the home and family, all this stuff.
Right. And so we pour all of our love, time,
attention, energy into kids. And the marriage,

(09:41):
doesn't get a lot of investment, doesn't get a lot
of love. And so over time, that disconnection just
goes wider and wider. And if you don't, at some
point, like, of course the kids need your time and
attention, especially when they're babies.

Right, right.

At some point, like around after 5ish years old,
if you do not turn your attention back to your
marriage, on some degree, some level, it is gonna
start getting a lot worse.

Yeah.

And so by the time the kids are 10 or 15, you're
so far disconnected that you feel like strangers.
And then you're leaning towards being empty
nesters. And you're like, you cannot imagine your
life where it's just the two of you and you're not
pouring yourself into your kids.

I was just gonna say, I was like, wow. And then,
yeah, the birdies leave the nest and then it's
quiet. And then you see each other in the hallway
and you're like, wait, who are you? Wait, more
importantly, who am I? Right, right.

Yeah. And there's. And there's another big one.
Like, in terms of reasons why we get disconnected
is because we get disconnected from ourselves
sometimes. And you can, if you are disconnected
from yourself, you're going to feel disconnected
in your marriage. Because if you Think about it,
like, who do we bring? Like when we're not at our
best.
Do we take that out on. Oh yeah, like I do it.

Yeah, I do it. I've never done that before.

Yeah. We don't take it out on our kids, friends.

Yeah.

I think of it much like, you know, how kids can
bring their worst selves to their parents because
they know their parents are going to love them. I
think it's that way in our marriages, is that we
can bring some of our worst selves into our
marriage when we're not at our best. because we
said the magic words, till death do us part. The
five dreaded works.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

So you're gonna love me and I'm gonna love you and
we're gonna stand by each other no matter how
miserable we make each other.

Yeah, exactly.
So how do, how do you know then if you come to
that point where like, you're feeling
disconnected, you don't know who, who each other
are anymore? How do you know if it's you, your
partner or the circumstances? How do you even
begin to know what the issue is?

Well, I think the, you know, broad brushstrokes,
like it's all of it. It's all of it. And I don't,
I don't think it's helpful to go looking for who's
to blame.

Right, Right.

Because just like it takes two of you to create a
healthy relationship, it takes two of you to
create a disconnected relationship. And the
circumstances have been there and life is going to
keep lifing and that's going to throw us more
stresses that we have to navigate our way through.
So it can't be just one thing. Right. There's ways
that I let my partner down, there's ways that they

(12:30):
let me down. There's resemblance that we've both
carried, there's conversations that we should have
had that we didn't have because it was easier not
to.

Right.

You know, and then there are circumstances of our
lives, like, you know, pandemics and hormones and
kids and empty nesters and all this stuff. Right.
There's, there's circumstances of our lives that
play into that.

Plus, I think too, at this age, like when you're
in your 40s and 50s, then our parents are getting
older and some of them are passing away. We might
have friends that are passing away. So then you
have a partner or you yourself is going through
some big losses.

Right. It's a real, it's a massive time of change.

Yeah.

for, you know, your 40s and 50s. It's just
massive, you know, on every front. And so going,
looking for like, who's to blame. I don't know
that that's productive. But what is productive is
to go, okay, well where, here's where we are
today. Let's say we're in a disconnected place and
we don't feel good about our marriage. Okay, fine,
but where do we want to be? And then we get really

(13:39):
focused on going there because going backwards,
like it's, it's unproductive. Right. Like, let's,
let's look back and figure out how we got here so
that then we can, what, go back to where we were
20 years ago? Like, try being the woman you were
at 25. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Right.

You just can't.

I don't think I'd want to be.

I don't want to be either. But you just can't. And
so it's like we're just going forward. It's like,
here's where we are, here's where we're trying to
get to.
Can we get there? And if you get focused on that,
then how we got here and who's to blame and who
did what and.

All of that doesn't even matter. What if one
person's like, yes, let's, let's, let's work on
this. Let's move this forward. Where, you know, I
want to be here. And then your partner's like,
yeah, no, m. I'm, I'm done.

I'm not there.

Yeah.

All the time. And obviously, you know, most of my
clientele is women, and there's a few brave men
that engage with my work, which I always love when
they do. But, so mostly I see it where the woman
is done, where she's been. Like if we're on a
continuum of where she's moving closer and closer
to being done with her marriage. She's been doing
that dance for years.

Yeah.

And then by the time she finally has the brave
conversation, her husband is like, wait a minute,
what? You want to end the marriage? What? How? And
he's completely dumbfounded. Never saw it coming.
And and now wants to do all the things. Wants to
go to counseling.

Yes.

Wants to do the things. And now she's like, wait a
minute, you're taking away my reasons that I had
in order to end the marriage. And so it gets to be
a confusing time.

Well, and I would think for a woman, there's a lot
of planning that's got to Go on. Before you even
have that conversation. Before you, like, okay,
this could be ending soon. I've. You're already
trying to figure out that next. I mean, as women,
we're great planners. I think so we're trying to
already plan in our minds as we're staring at the

(15:42):
ceiling fan at night, we're like, okay, how am I
going to do this? Where am I going to live? Where
am I going to work? Do I need. You know, there
could be women that have been, taking care of the
kids and are going to need to get a job. Like, I
mean, there's so many factors. So I would think
that women are trying to plan so much before they
even have that big conversation of, okay, I'm done

(16:05):
here.

I feel like it's two, like, it's almost like two
train tracks. One is they leave emotionally years
before they ever leave physically. M. So there's
that period of time where they're like, they're
leaving emotionally and then they sort of check
out. They stop trying, they stop investing. They
just don't. They're not fighting anymore because
they're not fighting for the marriage anymore, to

(16:27):
make it work. And that's when they get into
planning mode of, like plotting their escape, you
know, and that's when, like, what you're talking
about of like, okay, financially, what does this
look like?

Yeah.

Relationally, what does this look like? Lifestyle
wise, where am I going to live? How am I going to
live? What do I want my life to look like? And
then they start. They may or may not start taking
action, but that process is years, sometimes
decade or more.

Yeah. Yeah. Do. A lot of women will feel that
they. They got into the marriage because they were
someone different at that time, and they're just
not that woman anymore. And they just feel like
they can't even identify or they can't be. They
can't be part of that relationship because that
person has left the building, if you will.

Yeah, I don't. I don't hear a lot of women
articulating it like that, but as I'm working with
them, I can see how that would be the case. And.
And, it's really easy to see, right, because we're
not the same person at 20, 25, 30 that we are at
45, 50, 60. And this is why I just. If there's

(17:35):
like, one thing that if I could like, have a magic
wand and wave it, is that we would normalize
renegotiating our marriages as we move through
them.

Yes.

We're always Changing. But we don't sit down and
go, okay, you know what? What worked for us for
the last 10 years is not going to work for us for
the next five or 10 years.

Yeah.

And so we need to really think about, what does
that look like? And what does. How. What do we
each need? Because our needs change, our desires
change, where we want to place our priorities
changes. Like, so just.

Yeah, like, checking in with each other, like,
hey, this is where I'm at now. And sometimes we
don't even realize what, what our values and needs
are. Sometimes we don't even ask ourselves that.
Not much less relationship or your partner.

I one time saw a, You know, it's just like a
little story on Facebook or something. And I have
looked and looked and looked to find it again to
see who said it, but it was just like, it was like
a, a young man who was talking to his grandfather,
and, his grandfather had been married like 50
years or something to his grandma. And he asked
him, like, what's the secret, grandpa? And his

(18:46):
grandpa said something like, you know, your
grandma has been at least eight different women in
the time that I have known her, and I have enjoyed
getting to know every single one of them. And I
thought, that is brilliant. we went into it
knowing that, like, of course you're going to
change. Of course you're going to be many

(19:07):
different people throughout this marriage. Then we
wouldn't be so surprised by it.

And, you know, and then, embracing when your
partner is changing, like, oh, right, she's. She
has new needs now and new values and. Yeah, yeah.

Then it becomes more exciting and interesting. As
opposed to scary and threatening.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because people don't like change, though,
generally speaking, like human beings like you
and.

I. Yeah, I know. We're like, I know.

Yes. We don't really the average bear. But human
beings in general do not like change because
change brings uncertainty. Uncertainty is. Leads
to fear. And.

Yeah. So, personal story for me. I. I can
remember, and I told the story not too long ago.
There's the quote from Marianne Williamson. our
deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our
deepest fear is that we're powerful beyond
measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that
most frightens us. And when you had said, like,

(20:11):
sometimes it takes years before even, you know,
the divorce, and you have that conversation, and
it did for me.
And I had that quote, literally above my laptop,
and I kept staring. I was like, why do I like this
freaking quote so much? You know, I was like,
yeah, it's Marianne Williamson. But I'm like, why
am I so attached to this quote? And it finally hit

(20:32):
me and it was about that it is our light, not our
darkness that most frightens us.

Yeah.

And keeping it totally real, totally honest, I
asked myself, I was like, okay, Wendy, what if you
stepped into your light fully and completely,
allowing Wendy to totally be Wendy to do what I'm
even doing today. I knew that for me to step into
my light, I, had to get out of my marriage because
I would not be able to be Wendy if I stayed in

(21:00):
that marriage. Second part of the story is, is
that I went to this retreat and I'll never forget
this. We had, you know, like, you get a retreat
and they're like, okay, get a partner and you're
gonna sit on, you know, and discuss these,
whatever, you know, and I'll never. This lady had
said, she goes, the. One of the hardest things I
ever had to do was to divorce a good man. I was

(21:25):
like, oh, that's me that was meant for. I was
like, that's a sign for me. And so sometimes do
you find that there are some women that are in
those comfy, not bad, not horrible relationships.
Okay, nice home, a nice car and everything's hunky
dory. But they're just not fulfilled. It's

(21:48):
ordinary and they want. They're craving more or
not feeling that they can be themselves and fully
blossom in that if they stayed in that marriage.

Yeah. I mean, that was my story.

Yeah.

A good guy, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

and it was a perfectly fine.

Yeah, it's fine.

And you know, there are some of us that we're fine
isn't fine.

Yeah.

It's not enough. and that's the light that you're
talking about, of stepping into and going from a
like apathy or just comfortable to what is it that
I really want in my life? And it's a scary place
to be and it's an empowering place to be in an
exciting place to be. But, But I also think that,

(22:38):
you know, at a very basic level when I think about
relationships, like, why couldn't I be more like,
it's easy to see it in hindsight. Like, there's no
way I could be the woman that I am today had I
stayed in that m. Marriage. No way. But I would be
someone else.
And I'm like, why, why does it take me getting out

(23:03):
of this relationship? Because it's not like he's
holding me down, got me handcuffed to a chair,
like, or saying you can't do and be these things.
It's just that the dance that we did kept me in
this box. But what if. And this is some of the
things that I challenge some of my clients with
when they're like. Because like. So for instance,
if what I see a lot is where women will go out and

(23:26):
they'll have an affair and then what they realize
is who they are inside that relationship is way
more like who they want to be in their lives.

Yeah.

And so it's a different version of themselves. And
so then you know, because affairs bring lots of
challenges with them.

Yep.

Now we got to make a decision about the marriage.
And they're like, but how can I ever feel that way
with this guy?
And I want people to know is that that was
awakened in you. Those are your feelings. We, like
women, we give men way too much of our power.

I know.

It's all about you. You make me feel. No.

That'S such a good point. I have never thought
that before. That is such a good point.

Right. You're right.

We give them too much credit.

Where it's like, all about them.

That is you. That is just your authentic, true
self just dying to come out and play.

And so now you know what that looks like and what
that feels like and what the contents of that
woman is. And now it's like, can I be that in this
relationship?

M.

And. And if not, okay. Then you do have a decision
that you can make peace with. But is it going to
be easy? No. Because you've never been that woman.
If you think about it like, inside your marriage,
who you are is. You're a wife and a mother and
like the, the social boxes that we put around
women. But then you get into an affair and then
it's like now you're on fire. Now you're feeling

(24:56):
alive again in an entirely new way. And it. And
you're like, I, want some more of that. But you're
thinking that that's all about that man. Right.
And I promise you, like, you go live with that man
for the next ten years. Ten years from now, you
won't be feeling alive anymore. That is within us
to cultivate and keep that fire burning.

Yes.

But we gotta stop giving power.

Yeah. Right. It's us. Like, we're the ones that
have that fire. They don't give us that fire.

Right. And. And I. I told myself if I could feel
that once, then I could feel that again. I'm not
Saying you can feel it with anybody. Like, it's
not anybody.

Yeah.

But it's not just one or two men on the planet. M.

I always think of it, too. Like, men are not the.
Like, the icing on the cake. Right. They're the
sprinkles. Like, I'm the icing with the cake.
Right. They just add a little bit more color. You
know, I'm still yummy without them. Right. Like,
I. I've got enough just fine. But, yes, the
sprinkles always add a little bit extra color and

(26:06):
sweetness to it. Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I read somewhere on your website about,
therapy and versus. I mean, therapy is great,
right? Like, okay, let's go into couples therapy.
But then sometimes after a while, you're just
repeating the same stuff, and it's like going over
the same stories over and over and over again.
What I love about coaching specifically, maybe you

(26:31):
said this in the beginning, is it's kind of like
putting it onto Turbo, because I do feel like,
when a woman gets to that place, when they're
asking that question, should I stay or should I go
now? Then you want. You need to figure it out.
Like, you're. You're like, craving for that answer
quickly. So how. How do you even. I mean, is there

(26:55):
a framework? Is there. How do you. How do they
even arrive at that decision? And obviously, you
can't tell them, like, this is what you need to
do. They have to figure it out on their own. Yeah,
right.

The path that most people follow inside my
framework is that they will. They'll get equipped
with, I'll, call it my foundational tools. And
then you have to apply them. It's not just about
learning them. Like, it's not just watching a
bunch of Sharon Pope videos or listening to
podcasts or whatever. You actually have to apply
what it is that you learn. That's the only way

(27:26):
change happens. and you give it your very best,
and then if at the end of that, giving it your
very best, that things have shifted a bit. Now,
you don't go from, like, disconnected M for 10
years to wedded bliss in.

Yes.

Like, that doesn't happen. Right. But you realize,
okay, something shifted, and I'm not yet ready to
give up on this. M. And then in that case, they go
into a program called Marriage 2.0. Or you're
like, this relationship cannot ever be anything
other than it is, and this doesn't work for me.
And so then you do have an answer that you can

(28:01):
make peace with because you gave it your Best.

Yeah.

And then you move into a program called Divorce
Differently. So that's how that works. But the
framework is like, let's get you some baseline
tools and then get you applying those and let's
see if anything shifts and then we can give you
more tools and then we can see if anything shifts.
And it's just, it's all on your timeframe. But
you're right. By the time people engage with my

(28:24):
work, they're like, I want an answer right now.
I'm like, you've been struggling for eight years
and now you want an answer in eight days. Slow
down for a moment, take a breath.

Do you find that most of them, will just all of a
sudden they're like, I know what I need to do.
Like it'll just be like it just hits them. Even if
it is after a few sessions or after a program,
it's not like a. Ah, I don't know. I don't know.
Back and forth and then just all of a sudden boom.

Yes. Because.
What we do in a lot of those foundational tools is
clear out all the mind clutter of you being able
to really access that wisdom that you have.

Yeah. Because I actually just read this book, I
can't remember. It's basically about overthinking.

Yeah.

We all think, we all think too much. We do, we
think way too much. And we think that we need to
think in order to arrive at solutions, but we
actually don't. Like I've been reminding myself,
I'm like, wendy, stop thinking so much. But you're
so right, it's clearing that clutter out of our
head, which totally distorts any. You're not going

(29:29):
to gain the clarity with all of this going on up
there. It's too much.

Right. And so you get rid of like on one hand, it
could be like all the stories that you've created
about who your husband is and what he's capable of
and how the marriage can't ever evolve to a new
place or anything like that and you get rid of
some of that stuff and then you're like, maybe,
maybe I could love him again. Yeah, I'm not
perfect. Yeah, I've done some. Or you get to a

(29:58):
place of where you're like, this is who he is.

Yeah.

Who am I even to ask him to change or whatever.
And then you get to a place of where you can make
peace with your decision to end it and that's
really what it's about. Like it's not, it's about
can I make peace with the decision, whatever that
decision decision. Because I don't have. I don't
have an agenda like one is better than the other.
I think far too many marriages and far too soon
because we were never equipped to be successful.

(30:25):
And I don't think that every marriage should be
saved.

Yeah, I know. I mean, and the way I look at it
too, it's like, even if you go into it with the
intention of saving the marriage and you end up
not, worst case scenario, you've saved yourself.
And sometimes saving the partner, like, not that
you have control over that, but sometimes your
partner will end up being better off without you.

Yeah. And they may not see it that way at the
beginning.

Right.

Of course.

Yeah.

I love. I think it's Elizabeth Gilbert who said
freedom never works one way. It always when you
free yourself, you free someone else too.

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Your next chapter. Yeah. It starts whenever you
decide there is life beyond divorce. Right. It's.

(33:15):
I mean I'm living proof. Like it's, it happens.
Like you.

Life is going to continue to go on whether we.

Yeah. It is.

And are ready for it or not.

I think when it's. Yeah. When it's when you're in
the midst of everything and you're trying to
figure out what to do and when to do it and how to
do and all that and you're just not going to
figure it all out in one sitting. You're just.
It's just not going to happen. But you can do it.
I mean, whether you decide to stay in the
relationship and you're going to have to work at
it there. That's all possible too. Like it's. But

(33:50):
it's, it's. Yeah. Change is not easy. Even if you
love change. It's not easy.

Yeah, it's not easy. And most of us is. You don't
know what the future holds. Right. Go back to the
overthinking. Like our brains are like, all right,
if this happens, then I'll do this and if this
happens, I'll do this. And it's like we're trying
to map out 200 different scenarios.

Yes.

Also that we can feel safe. That's like when you
really trust that you're going to have your own
back and that whatever is presented to you next,
you're going to show up with presence and power
and grace for yourself.
Then you can walk through knowing that like I've
got my own back. I'm going to be able to navigate
this even though I don't know what a year from now
looks like. I don't know what five years from now

(34:30):
looks like because I can't know what that looks
like.

Right.

That's when you can walk through change. When you
know you have back.

I mean really, it's the, it's the uncertainty,
it's the unknown that most people are fearful of.

Yes.

They don't know what's around them, what's going
to happen and how's this. It's. Oh, so most people
will end up just staying in an uncomfortable
comfort zone.

Yes. Human beings will choose discomfort that is
known versus potential, like massive upside that
is unknown because we, that's how much we fear the
unknown. And so that's why again, in a lot of
these foundational tools is like part of clearing
out that clutter is really understanding your
fears and understanding your Mind and how it works

(35:15):
and how to get more in so that you're the driver.
You're in the driver's seat.

Yeah.

You know, and not your fight or.

Flight response, I would think too. I mean, I know
it was for me. But as you go through some of this
and as you're trying to figure out where you're at
and what you're going to do, you discover more
about yourself. Like even what your values are,
what your needs are, what you like, what you don't
like.

Yes.

Especially in your 40s and 50s, when you may not
have even asked yourself the question. I, I
literally, I can remember asking myself, okay,
Wendy, what. What are your needs? And I was like,
I don't know.

Right.

Never. So it's like, if you think about it, if I
didn't know, how would my partner know?

There's no way. And then we're like, he's not
meeting my needs. And I'm like, what are they?
Yeah. There's so many unspoken expectations that
we have for our partners. And this is why, like, I
don't know, I, really, like, honestly, it boggles
my mind that in any area of our lives we need
tools and training to be successful. You want to

(36:21):
be a coach, you need some tools and training or
you're going to not be successful. You want to be
an accountant, a doctor, a nurse, a, teacher,
anything, you're going to need some training. But
we come into marriage with love and hope.

Yeah.

Let's do this forever.

Isn't that enough? Isn't that enough, Sharon?

So not enough. So not enough. And so of course
we're failing. You know, and so we, we have
expectations that we don't even realize we're
carrying. And so they go unspoken and then we get
pissed off that our partner isn't meeting our
needs. It's like we just, we're setting ourselves
up for failure.
But maybe it's not failure. Maybe it's just we're

(37:04):
setting ourselves up for, oh, this is where I need
to pay attention.

Yeah.

Like, oh, this is something for me to work on.
There's something here for me. As opposed to like,
oh, I'm in the wrong marriage. I should get out.
This is all broken. This is all wrong. It's like,
no, all these signs that the upsets that we have
had, the places where we've disconnected from each
other, those were the times where it was like,
hey, pay attention, pay attention. Yeah, there's

(37:33):
something here for you. There's an opportunity for
you to grow and to Step into this.

Yeah.

I think human beings were like, oh, maybe I should
just question the whole thing.

Yeah.

So we've not. We're like, we need a better, we
need better tools to be better at this. We just
do.

Yeah. They should start teaching like relationship
psychology and I know. And Right.

And then in college, like, why don't we do this? I
want to teach some of this foundational tool stuff
to like third graders someday.

Right. And I mean, and obviously as children we're
learning, you know, typically from our parents or
even our friends parents. Like I can remember even
like, oh, interesting. Like Judy, you know, her
parents were like, they were always so nice to
each other and. But then they end up getting
divorced and it's like, why did they get a
divorce? They were so nice to each other. Like
it's, it's all very confusing. I think as you're.

(38:27):
When you're a child of like what is right, what is
wrong? And I even just recently. Yeah.

it's like what our parents did.

Exactly.

That's what becomes normalized. And they didn't
have a guidebook either. They didn't have any
tools in training. So at some point the pain is
going to become enough for us that we're going to
be like, all right, I'm going to solve this
problem for myself.
And I think honestly, like, I think so many people
are having that awakening right now because we
want healthy relationships. We're so like hyper

(39:00):
connected technology wise. But we are so
disconnected as human beings and that's not going
to get easier. So if we don't invest in that area,
like we're gonna like, loneliness will. Can kill
you.

Yeah. I think too I make, you know, if someone
makes that decision to go through with the
divorce, take that opportunity to learn a lot
about yourself and how you can love yourself more.
And I mean I said, I was like, I got a divorce and
I married myself. It was like, it was the greatest
decision. But I did take that time as a side and

(39:34):
like I dove into like, okay, Wendy, I don't want
to repeat this. You know, I don't want to keep
doing the same thing over and over and over again.
And how can I learn what I do need? Right. What,
what my needs are and to be able to state what my
needs are, not be worried about that. Like, oh
God, what if I say that? And you know, so it's

(39:57):
such.

A great you and you are till death do you part.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. I know, but really, I
mean, if someone's out there. Listen. And they're
like, oh, my gosh, I'm going through a divorce.
Like, flip the script on that. Like, it doesn't
have to be such a bad thing. It can be the. One of
the greatest gifts that you give to yourself of,
finally loving yourself. I didn't love myself
until I was 50. Good night. You know, so it is the

(40:23):
greatest gift for me.

I just, you know, I often say, like, when people,
when particularly women are trying to, you know,
fill that gap of, like, I need to find someone. I
need to find someone.

Yes. Yes.

And I'm like, sometimes what we're looking for is
ourselves.

Yeah.

And if we are not our favorite person to hang out
with, then why should we be someone else's
favorite person? You know, so there's. There's an
opportunity for us there to, like, you said, like,
date yourself, marry yourself. Like, spend some
time getting to know you without the context of
somebody else's energy.

Yeah.

It's really worthwhile.

And I think, too, it's, It kind of reminds me of,
like, if you had a ball of yarn. And it's. That's
what it feels like. And when it starts off with
the divorce and it's just like this big mess, but
as you start to unravel it and unravel it and
you're making that connection, that thread,
you'll. You'll kind of. As you go back through
your past, not to. Not for blame or shame or any

(41:27):
of that, but to kind of learn from it, you start
to make. You start to connect those dots. And as
the. And then that.
That ball of yarn unravels and unravels, and you
start to. You feel unraveled, like you're not as.
Cause you start to understand, okay, this is
where. This is where I got that from. I didn't
know what love was, or I didn't know what a good

(41:50):
marriage. Marriage was. Or now I know, like, now
you start to get more and more familiar with who
you are and what the kind of relationship you
want. And being able to design that and create
that, knowing that you can create that, especially
at midlife, it's like, oh, it's such a beautiful
time. Be able to go, actually, this is what I
want. I want this type of relationship, you know,

(42:13):
I mean, to know that you can do that. And what I
think is different too, especially at midlife, is
that most of us were done raising kids. I mean,
some of us were back then, in our 20s, were
looking for the good father. We're looking for
that, we don't necessarily need that anymore. Just
like you were saying earlier about evolving. Well,

(42:35):
as you've evolved, if you're in your 40s and 50s,
you'd be looking for something a little bit
different than what you might have been looking
for in your 20s.

Yes, yes. And you know, back to the. The idea of
spending some time with yourself and making sure
that you don't repeat the patterns. Here's why
this is really important. It's because. So if
first marriages are ending at a rate of 40 to 50%,
second marriages are ending at a rate of 67%,
third marriages at 73%. Shut up. and that is

(43:06):
because you can end a marriage, but you're going
to take yourself with you.

Yeah.

And so if you do not learn the lessons, you're
going to continue to repeat them. It's just as
simple as that. Like, if it's like, I'm just gonna
blame him, he's the problem, get rid of him,
problem solved. Oh no, my friend, you have had a
role in the creation of that experience. And if
you don't solve that, you're going to recreate
that experience over and over again. That's how
the lessons in our lives work. They're going to

(43:32):
keep showing up until we learn them.

Yeah.

So it's worthwhile work.

That was a good sound bite there. I'll have to
remember that. So I could put that. At the
beginning of the episode, I was like, that was a
good one. Yeah. I don't even know what you just
said, but it was good either. Yeah, no, that was.
Do you find that some people will opt to, to just
to separate instead of staying or going? They'll
separate and then they come back to a decision. Is

(44:00):
that easier that way?

I mean, saying the word separation, which, you
know, there are, there are places in the world
that acknowledge separation. There's people,
there's places in the world that don't. Just
interesting to me because we don't go from being
married to not married. Like.

Yeah, right, right, right, right.

In between liminal period, which most people call
separation. And it's a, yeah, it is easier. It's,
it's a way. And it's not quite as scary. So that's
why sometimes people use that language. and I
don't believe that, you know, once you get
separated, it's just a slippery slope to divorce.
Like it, it can be, but it also can be a time for

(44:38):
the two of you to spend some time apart. And if
you're going to Interrupt patterns inside the
relationship because the relationship isn't
functional. It is a lot easier to interrupt
patterns when you have already interrupted the
living pattern.

Yeah, right.

If I'm going to only see you, call it twice a week
as opposed to 12 inches from me every single day.

Yeah.

Well, I might be more present for that. I might
be, a little bit more friendly about that because
I only see you for a few hours twice a week now
and we can have more conversation. And it's not so
heated. It's not so, you know, because it's just
not so up, close and personal. So it's. You
interrupt patterns. I don't, I don't poo poo

(45:22):
separation. I poo poo. Don't keep doing the same
thing, whatever it is, keep doing the same thing
and get the same result. You try something new and
separation could be that something new. You will
learn something new, and that will give you more
information that will lead you closer to a
decision.

Well, plus two. I mean, we, in a lot of our
relationships, we, we have these habits or these
automatic reactions. They say, this, this is how I
react. So, like you said, if you break that and
you're not there to get triggered or to like, feel
like I better, you know, go sit over, you know,

(45:58):
sit next to him, or those things, like the
obligations or the automatic, you know, responses
and behaviors. If you don't have that, then it
helps you to not think so much and to be able to.
If you're removing that piece of it, that makes it
a little bit easier for you to maybe arrive at
clarity of what you're going to do or not do.

When you wake up in the same house and you follow
the same sort of routine every day, it's really
easy to fall back into patterns. We are pattern
people. Yeah.

Ah, yeah, I know.

Same thing that we did yesterday, that we did last
week, that we did last month. That's what we do.
And so, yeah, but you go into separation and then
you're like, oh, this will solve something. But
then you never speak to each other. You never
really tackle the challenges in the relationship.
Then don't expect that it's going to magically get
better. It's not. You're just going to get further
and further disconnected. The longest one I've

(46:52):
ever seen so far has been 10 years, where they
stay separated for 10 years. And then, one of them
was finally like, are we going to move on with our
lives? What are we doing here? At some point,
because you don't want to live Like a liminal
period is not a place you want to live in. Yeah,
liminals. Just like, you know when like you were

(47:13):
pregnant.

Right.

You weren't yet a mom, but you weren't not.
Right.

Yeah.

You don't want to stay pregnant your whole life,
do you?

Stay in limbo. Yeah, you don't want to stay in.

Limbo your whole life, but you can do it for, you
know, some period of time.

Yeah. Do, do. A lot of women will end up staying
or I guess even in the men too, for the kids.

Well, that's a really, I mean, it's super common.

Yeah.

and it's a, it's a thinking that, you know, no
parent wants to hurt their kids and that there's,
there's different schools of thought around this,
around that some people believe that all divorce
is going to hurt kids, but there's research that
says that when the marriage is not good that you

(47:59):
are doing some damage to the kids. You know, And I
would say, especially if there's a lot of,
animosity towards each other.
Pain towards each other, certainly if there's
arguing going on. Like, but you know, sometimes
people are like, oh, we never argue in front of
the kids, but we just, we never make eye contact
with each other, we never hold hands, we never
talk to each other. We treat each other with

(48:21):
disdain and contempt. Like your kids pick up on
all of that.

I was gonna say kids are more intuitive than usual
than us adults because we're all so busy. They're,
they pick up on that stuff. They, they see that,
they observe quite a bit. Yeah.

Like, let's say, let's say that there was a, let's
say a man had some anger issues and he was yelling
at his wife or degrading his, his wife and she's
like, well, at least he's not doing that to the
kids. But then you have daughters who are learning
this is what marriage looks like. And so she very
likely will get involved with someone who will
yell at her or degrade her, or if they have a son,

(49:02):
he will very likely get into a relationship where
he could be on either side where he's either the
one degrading the woman or the one being degraded.

Yeah.

So these are just patterns that we, we normalize
our life experience and even when it's
dysfunctional or it doesn't feel good, it feels
known and familiar.
And then that's what we choose and that's what we
create in our lives.

Right.

So. So, you know. Yes. People stay. But you know
what? I will also tell you this, People, it's kind
of crazy to me that we go, all right, once they
turn 18 or like, once they graduate high school,
then they're not gonna have any feelings about
their parents getting divorced.

emotionless.

Yeah, right, right. They just lose all sense of
emotion at 18. That does not. They have stronger
opinions. They have more vocal opinions.

Yeah.

not like splitting time between two houses. But,
I've got clients now where one of them, their kid,
their son is like 35, and he's got some strong
opinions about his mother considering leaving her
marriage. Another one where the child is in
college. so she's like 21, 22, and she's melting
down about her parents, you know, getting a

(50:17):
divorce.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not like there's some magic number where your
kids are not going to have feelings or be impacted
by it. It's just the depth, which they're plus
too.

I think it's showing if you decide to get out of
an unfulfilling marriage. It's showing. Showing
the children that you don't have. No matter what
the relationship is. It's okay to get out of a
relationship that is not serving you, that you are
not feeling loved or you don't feel that you can
love. It's okay. Like, you're showing you're.

Information. You can make a new decision. You're
never stuck. Right. We are human beings with free
will. We are never stuck except in our mind.

Exactly. But that was a good one, too. You've done
this before. I know. Mic drop, Mic drop and mic
drop. This is such good stuff. I can see why you
help so many women with this.

And I love it.

And, Yeah. It's so needed and to know it's okay.
You're not alone.

No. No.

There's so many women out there dealing with the
same thing. It's okay. And you're gonna be okay no
matter what you decide.

That's right. That's right. You are. Yeah.

So you have the book, say or go, Right. And then
you've got.

Yeah, you can get it. Stayorgobook.com it's the
easiest place to get it. I've written a bunch of
books, but honestly, like, that's probably. That's
my best one. It's my, favorite one. It's the one
that's helped the most people. It's the most
comprehensive. Like, so. It's the one I would
recommend.

Yeah. Look at how all the goodness that came out
of you Deciding to get out of that chrysalis and
fly.

I know, I know. It's crazy. Like, my life would
look nothing like it looks today in any way,
shape, or form. And I'm. I'm, grateful for all of
it. And it was not easy, and it was not pretty
most of the time, but, I'm so grateful. Yeah. Been
quite a ride. Yeah.

Yeah. You literally became a new woman.

Yeah. And it, didn't set out to do that. I, just.

Right.

I know.

This is like that. Yeah.
This is a happy accident.

Yeah. It's just one thing leads to another, leads
to another, and who knows where. It'll be fun to
see where I'm at in 10 years. Right. Because the
change never stops.

Yeah. So cool. Definitely. Life beyond divorce.
So, okay, the podcast, what's it called? Loving
Truth. Yes. Okay. And I'm sure that's wherever.
Wherever you can listen to podcasts.

Yes. Oliver.

Yeah. So someone out there, and then they're like,
I need Sharon. I am stuck. What do they do? Where
do they go?

They can go to clarity for my marriage dot com.

Oh, nice. Clarity for my marriage.

That's it.

Yeah. I think I looked at that earlier. It was
really good. You had a little video on top.

Yeah.

Yeah. You're so cute. You're. You're good. You're
good. You're very good. Love it. I love. I love
it. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah. And then your main website is. Is just
Sharon Pope.com, right?

That's it. Yeah.

How did you get that domain? You gotta look it up
and you're like, oh, my God, nobody else has it.

I didn't for like, a year or two. Someone else had
it, and then they let go of it. And as soon as
they let go of it, I snatched it up because I
think there's a jazz musician named Sharon Pope or
something.

Yeah, right. I know. I know that. That was like
when Wendy Valentine was. I was like, oh, my God.
It's available like that for a dollar. Thank you
so much, and I appreciate all you do and. And,
helping everyone out there.

Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate you sharing me with
your world.

We're sharing Sharon and Sharon.

That's right.

Sharon.

Sharon, Wendy. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Did this podcast inspire you? Challenge
you? Trigger you to make a change or spit out your
coffee laughing? Good. Then there are three ways
you can thank me. Number one, you can leave a
written review of this podcast on Apple iTunes.
Number two, you can take a screenshot of the
episode and share it on social media and tag me

(54:38):
Wendy Valentine number three. Share it with
another midlifer that needs a makeover. You know
who I'm talking about. Thank you so much for
listening to the show. Get out there and be bold.
Be free. Be you.

Sam.

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298 💔 Should You Stay or Go? Finding Clarity in Your Marriage with Sharon Pope

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