November 4, 2025 • 53 mins
In this powerful conversation, Wendy Valentine sits down with habits and identity coach—and recovering perfectionist—Monica Packer to unpack why perfectionism keeps midlife women stuck on the sidelines and how to choose progress over perfection. Monica shares her 2015 “aha” moment, explains the perfectionism pendulum (overachieving ↔ underachieving), and shows how self-compassion—not shame—creates sustainable change.
You’ll hear practical ways to quiet the inner critic, navigate the messy middle, set healthier boundaries, and take brave, bite-sized action with Monica’s simple Do Something List. If you’re tired, busy, or overwhelmed but still want to grow, this episode gives you freeing, relatable tools to move forward—imperfectly and authentically.
Â
What You’ll Learn
- The “perfectionism pendulum” and why both all-or-nothing and doing nothing are the same trap
- How self-compassion outperforms self-criticism for lasting habit change
- A 3C toolkit: Compassion, Courage, Curiosity to navigate the messy middle
- How to spot and reframe your inner critic in real time
- Why validation ≠apathy—and how acceptance jumpstarts momentum
- Practical steps to start small: create a Do Something List and celebrate micro-wins
- How perfectionism strains relationships—and the role of boundaries and invitations to change
- Identity shifts: moving from outcome-based worth to values-aligned action in midlife
🎧 Tune in now at https://TheMidlifeMakeoverShow.com or wherever you listen to podcasts!
Â
👉 Connect with Monica!
Â
🌟 Explore All Things Midlife & More
Â
đź“– Order Your Copy of Women Waking Up
Â
📸 Follow My Midlife Adventures on IG!
https://www.instagram.com/wendy_valentine_/
Â
đź“ť Get Weekly Midlife Inspiration on Substack
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Monica Packer (00:00):
It's lonely on a pedestal. That was actually my
(00:03):
number one motivator to changing in a, in a new
way because I realized my perfectionistic
tendencies were harming my relationships. I mean,
I wasn't really noble to my husband because I
wasn't allowed to really be human to myself and to
him. and I was showing up differently than how I
am to my kids because of the prices I was paying
(00:25):
and how, you know, it came out with them. So that
actually the relationship can be one of your
biggest motivators and reasons to do this work.
>> Wendy Valentine (00:37):
Hey there, beautiful. I'm Wendy Valentine, your
host of the Midlife Makeover show, where it's
never too late to wake up to your best life.
Whether you're navigating a career change, empty
nesting, menopause, or wondering what's next,
you're in the right place. Every week, I'll bring
you real talk, laughs and inspiring conversations
(00:58):
with experts and extraordinary women who have
transformed their lives from self care and
relationships to starting over and finding
freedom. This is your time to reinvent,
rediscover, and reignite the woman you were always
meant to be. So hit that subscribe button and,
let's rewrite the rules of midlife. Your new
(01:18):
adventure starts now.
Foreign.
Are there sights, sounds or smells that remind you
of a past traumatic event causing you to fight,
flight or freeze? These physical and emotional
(01:40):
responses are called triggers, and they happen to
all of us. Triggers can be tricky, but the key is
to stop the trigger in its tracks and turn the
trigger into a treasure. Just like Dr. Nicole Lera
said, there's nothing negative about being
triggered. It's a calling to heal our wounds. To
help you heal those wounds, I created a free
(02:02):
download called the Trigger to Treasure technique,
where you will learn the four steps on how to
identify your triggers, how to control your
triggers, and how you can move past your past so
you can live peacefully in the present moment.
Please go to Wendy Valentine.com forward/trigger
(02:23):
to receive your free download and you can begin to
turn your triggers into treasures.
Welcome back to the Midlife Makeover Show. I'm
your host, Wendy Valentine. Today's guest is here
to help us break free from one of the biggest
traps holding women back from real change.
Perfectionism. Monica Packer is a recovering
(02:46):
perfectionist. Me too. Turned habits and identity
coach who's, on, a mission to help women make
progress over perfection. She's the creator and
host of the top rated podcast about progress,
which has inspired millions to embrace personal
growth that's actually sustainable, not Stressful.
(03:08):
In our conversation, Monica and I dive into why
women must approach habits differently. How to
stop labeling yourself as lazy and what to do when
you're tired, busy and overwhelmed but still want
to grow. Her insights are practical, freeing, and
deeply relatable. Because lasting transformation
(03:29):
doesn't come from getting it perfect. It comes
from getting it real.
>> Monica Packer (03:35):
Please welcome Monica to the show. Thanks for
having me, Wendy. I'm really happy to be here.
>> Wendy Valentine (03:42):
Yeah, thank you. And I loved being on your show.
We were just talking about that. I don't even know
when that was. It was such a blur. It was a few
weeks ago, but it was great. and, and I've been
trying to make progress ever since then.
>> Monica Packer (03:55):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (03:55):
So tell us. I want you to take us back December
2015. If I, if, if I had that correct, you were in
your, you were in the passenger seat of your
family van six months before you were going to
turn 30 years young. Take us, take us to that
epiphany, that wonderful aha moment that you had.
>> Monica Packer (04:17):
Well, I like to joke that I've had several midlife
crises, but that was my first so it was a little
premature. But that's kind of how I roll. I just
do things a little earlier than most. And I've
done the same with aging too, it appears. And
that's ok. Guess we're just joining the early
club. so that to me was an epiphany because I
realized in, you know, we have all those kind of
(04:38):
trickle moments like where we, we know things, we
think things, but they don't fully get embedded
and we don't have a full aha moment until
something really smacks us in the face. And that
was kind of that moment for me where I had been
long kind of having those trickle thoughts of
thinking I always want to do things and I never do
(04:58):
them or I always thought I'd be doing this and now
I'm not doing that at all. Or this used to be so
important to me and I never prioritize it at all
anymore. And I think there was something about
being in that passenger seat while my husband was
driving us to family dinner at his, at his parents
house and having a second to actually think
(05:19):
because at that point we had three, three young
children, all three. And and younger. And now I
have two more. But my husband worked in San
Francisco. We never ever saw him like it. We never
saw him, you know, couldn't pay for any, any help.
My in laws were often out of the states so they
weren't able to Contribute. Anyway, I just. It was
(05:39):
my first real moment in a long time to just think.
And as I realized, oh, in six months, I'm turning
the big three o. And I realized that list is too
long. Of all the I wish I could, or I wonder if I
could, or I love that they're doing that, or I
could never. And as part of that realization,
(06:01):
realizing, okay, so I'm on the sidelines of my own
life. Why? Why am I on the sidelines of my own
life? I thankfully had a really great therapist
that I got soon after that time because I was
dealing with, you know, some major other things
like depression, that I had to work through. And
she pointed out to something to me that I didn't
realize. And I can't remember if it was before or
(06:22):
after this. I think it might have been a little
bit before. That's one of the trickle thoughts,
right? She pointed out that I was a perfectionist,
and I basically laughed in her face because I used
to be a perfectionist in quotes. I had aspired to
be a perfectionist for the first 20 years of my
life. And that's when I hit my first other midlife
crisis at 20, when I crashed and burned thanks to
(06:45):
prices I was paying, thanks to my overachieving
perfectionism. And then I spent the next 10 years
going to another pendulum swing. The other side of
the pendulum swing of perfectionism, which is
underachieving perfectionism. I just didn't know
that it was still perfectionism. And regardless of
what it looks like, the perfectionism pendulum
(07:06):
swing is where we are basing our identity off of
our outcomes. And the fear of failure is driving
us so hard to either over perform or underperform.
And it's all out of this fear of not measuring up.
And it can also be a coping mechanism, which we
know if you've been through something traumatic,
but for a lot of people, it's just that pendulum
swing. So identifying that in myself, having that
(07:29):
trickle thought that then amounted to that moment
in the car was for me that major light bulb of
being like, it's time to get off the sidelines.
But I have to do it in a way I've never done it
before. I have been on the all or nothing pendulum
swing my entire life, and for a lot of my life, it
looked good on the outside. I had all the
(07:51):
accolades and the achievements. I was doing really
well, but I paid the price for it. That created a
mental breakdown for me at 20 that then led to 10
years of not having accolades or achievements or
things that People were impressed by, and I still
was in the same place. I was paying a price, which
for me, again, was depression and falling apart.
(08:11):
So I had to find a different way to make progress
in my life that wasn't on that all or nothing
pendulum swing anymore. And that has now been 10
years. And, yeah, I feel like I'm about to
approach another midlife crisis. I'm sure it's
coming, but I have to say I have grown
exponentially the last 10 years than the first 20
(08:32):
when I was the overachieving, perfectionism,
perfectionist, and then the next 10 where I was
underachieving. Finding a new way has changed my
life.
>> Wendy Valentine (08:42):
I love it. Don't you love those aha moments?
>> Monica Packer (08:45):
M. Yeah. I wish I had them all the time, but I
have to pay attention more to the trickle
thoughts, you know, just like those little, like,
maybe you should pay attention to that. Over.
>> Wendy Valentine (08:55):
Yeah. Where. Where do you think that stemmed from
the whole perfectionism thing with you? If you go
back, you know, was it in your teen years? Was it
from society? Was it family, friends? Where do you
think it, like, originally came from?
>> Monica Packer (09:10):
This is a question I've pondered a lot because I
do get asked it and because I help so many women
through their perfectionistic ways, whether, you
know, wherever they are on that spectrum. I have
to say all of the above. Yes.
>> Wendy Valentine (09:24):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (09:25):
And I think that's how it often is for most women.
We can't really pinpoint it to one singular thing.
It's everything. It's kind of being that fish in
the water, you know, like we. It's the water we
are swimming in, especially as women, we pick up
on it without even being told directly that so
much of how you're perceived is based off of what
(09:45):
people can see, whether it's your appearance to
your achievements and identity, to me is a big
part of it too. I think, perfectionism, to me is a
misplacement of identity. It's misplacing who you
are off of those outcomes, whether you have them
or not. I mean, those 10 years where I was the
underachieving perfectionist, that was still my
identity of being someone who didn't do things
(10:07):
anymore, who didn't try. So for me, it's really
all of the above.
>> Wendy Valentine (10:12):
Did you feel like you also. With perfectionism,
you also had the other labels of. Were you an
approval seeker, codependent? what's the other
one? I'm trying to think of? what's the other one?
People pleaser. Yes.
>> Monica Packer (10:28):
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I think, I was. I've always been
really independent, so the codependency one
doesn't quite track for me, but it does for many
people. But the people pleasing one. Yes, I can
see that. You know what if I were to get to the
root of it really is I just wanted to be good.
>> Wendy Valentine (10:45):
Yeah. Be the good little girl. Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (10:48):
Yes. And, you know, that's how a lot of things
start, with good intentions. So it's not that we
were maliciously trying to set out to ruin our
lives and is that we were trying to actually be
good, but the way that's been presented to us for
so long is this perfectionistic model. I mean, how
long and how often have we heard perfectionism
(11:09):
being described as a. As a positive trait, as
something that someone was going to aspire to, or
even the humble brag, like, I'm imperfectionist,
so I have to do everything perfectly or I'm all or
nothing. You know, we aspire to it. And I caught
on and I wrote that hard because I also got
rewarded for it until the price was too high for
me. and a lot of that was, you know, at that point
(11:31):
in my life at 20s, I had multiple eating disorders
and depression and anxiety and panic disorders and
all those things like that. Those were the prices
I paid that nobody could see because of the,
because of the pillar I was on, really ahead of
everyone.
>> Wendy Valentine (11:47):
It's exhausting trying to maintain all that.
>> Monica Packer (11:51):
Totally exhausting. And it's not even.
>> Wendy Valentine (11:53):
Yeah. Not even accepting who you are.
>> Monica Packer (11:57):
Yeah. And nothing was enough. That's part of it
too. Part of being on that pendulum swing is you
can't get off of it because it's a hamster wheel
too. It's a cycle of hustling and doing, doing,
doing, burning out. And some people then go to
nothing for many years or some period of time and
they hop back on. Other people just amp it up to a
whole other level.
>> Wendy Valentine (12:15):
Yeah, I can totally relate to this whole thing.
>> Monica Packer (12:18):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (12:19):
I told you. I was like, I love this topic of
perfectionism because it hits so close for me. And
I cannot recall if I shared this on your show. I
might have, because we were probably talking about
some perfectionism there. But you're lucky. At
least you. You hit it at 30. it didn't hit me
until 50, but at least, at least it did click
(12:40):
finally for me. And my perfectionism stemmed from
when I was a little girl, when I got. When I was
abandoned. And, from being abandoned. I wanted to
be perfect so that no one would leave me again.
Right. Like, if I'm not perfect, I. I, may not be
loved. I may not be good enough or smart enough,
and therefore, they're going to leave me. And then
(13:02):
with that, and that's kind of why I was asking
about the different labels, I became a really good
people pleaser, you know, approval seeker. I was
doing all the things. Again, absolutely
exhausting. And then I also hit that phase in my
life, and I think that was probably shortly after
kids. Even though I was still doing all the things
to make sure everyone was happy except for me.
(13:24):
Right.
>> Monica Packer (13:24):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (13:25):
To assure that no one would leave me and everyone
would be happy with. With mom and As a friend, as
a daughter, as an. As a spouse, all the things.
And then it hit me at the age of 50, sitting on
top of a picnic table, overlooking. Right. Like,
we know these epiphanies, these aha moments. And I
was watching the sunset, and I realized I became
(13:48):
my greatest fear. My greatest fear was being
abandoned and that the one person that was
abandoning me the most was me. I was like, shit.
M. On five decades of trying to do m. All the
things. And one thing I realized is, that all
those people. Not to say that no one was grateful.
(14:09):
I'm not saying that. But they're all just doing
their thing. Right? Everyone's doing their life,
and it didn't really matter. Like, I was
exhausting myself for no reason at all. But then I
was giving up on all the dreams, and I. And then
I. I did go to the other end. I became like it
was. I couldn't be perfect enough. So it was,
>> Monica Packer (14:29):
What are they.
>> Wendy Valentine (14:29):
What does it say? An analysis by paralysis. Wait,
paralysis by analysis. They're the other way
around, right?
>> Monica Packer (14:34):
Yeah. Like, why try? Yeah. Step in the fear still.
Yes.
>> Wendy Valentine (14:39):
Yeah. You end up, like, you're doing all the
things, and then you're like, oh, my gosh. But
that I've proven I can't do it. All right? So then
therefore, then you just freeze, and then you.
You'll never. You end up not starting something
because it may not be perfect. So then you're
just, like, stuck.
>> Monica Packer (14:55):
Yep.
>> Wendy Valentine (14:56):
Frozen. And I don't know. I feel like that there's
a lot of women out there, especially I think, in
30s, 40s, 50s, that they hit that. And that's why
you. I'm stuck.
>> Monica Packer (15:09):
I'm.
>> Wendy Valentine (15:09):
So everyone just say, I'm stuck. I'm frozen. I
don't know what to do. I don't know what my
purpose is. I don't know what I'm excited About
everyone. They're like, yeah, who am I? Yeah,
let's, let's talk about that. Because that's. I
think that's huge for a lot of women. Like, what
if they do feel like they're just completely stuck
and paralyzed by their own fears?
(15:30):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (15:30):
Well, I would start by validating it because the
truth is, is they are. But a greater truth is it's
not necessarily their fault.
>> Wendy Valentine (15:41):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (15:41):
And I think that's one of the biggest things we
can tell women and help them learn is that in many
ways they've been set up to fail again. Because if
you were on that pendulum swing, then, you know,
you think the only way to do things is, is that
all right, so you're not given another model.
(16:04):
There's no in betweeners. There's no people really
sharing the messy middle. There are more now, I
would say, than when I started this work 10 years
ago. It was almost like an anomaly. To talk about
the messy middle and not doing things perfectly
and to talk about mental health too, was a big,
like what? People are talking about that now, but
things are a little better, I would say. But
because we have been only given one way and we
(16:26):
have followed that way faithfully, we are missing
that we've been again, set up to fail. And what I
see so often happening with women is they get to
that point where they hit their wall or they have
that I'm on the hill and I'm seeing the sunset, or
I'm in the passenger side and I have a moment to
think and they get that big moment, that big
(16:46):
realization about where they are in their lives
and how they're feeling and how they don't want to
be here anymore and then somehow blaming
themselves for it.
>> Wendy Valentine (16:55):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (16:56):
You know, thinking like, what's wrong with me? Why
didn't I try? Or why couldn't I have done this? Or
why can't I do it now? And we just have to start
by validating. Yeah, you are stuck, but it's not
just because you chose to. This was how you were
set out.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:15):
To end up, Right? Yeah. Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (17:18):
And I don't stay there, though. We don't stay
there. So we're going to talk about that too. We
don't.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:22):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (17:22):
Stay there.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:24):
Yeah. How do you get out of there?
>> Monica Packer (17:29):
Well, I think one thing that's really important to
know is validation does not equate apathy. So
accepting why you are where you are at.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:39):
Yes.
>> Monica Packer (17:40):
Doesn't mean you have to then stay there in that
apathy. That's where we get Resentful, bitter old
women.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:47):
Yes.
>> Monica Packer (17:47):
And I say that with full compassion. Because they,
a lot of them didn't have another way.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:52):
Right.
>> Monica Packer (17:53):
They didn't know there was another way. So we
don't, we still don't need to stay there. We don't
want to stay there and we don't have to stay
there.
>> Wendy Valentine (18:00):
Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I think, the
acceptance is, is a huge part of it. Like, all
right, this is, this is, I mean, when I look back
at that time in my life, I'm like, Wow. Like I, I
felt, I felt bad for, for that little girl, you
know, that little nine year old that had been
abandoned and she had to feel that she had to do
(18:22):
all the things in order to be loved. And you know,
which is so sad, you know, And I think also it's
like giving ourselves some grace. Like, no, it's,
it's okay. Like having those conversations with
your, that little girl, with the teenager, with
the 20 something year old. Because no, you are
(18:43):
not, you do not have to do all the things to be
who you are. You don't know. Like it's, I mean, I
think about, Bronnie Ware, right?
The top five regrets of the dying. And the number
one regret is living life for everybody else
except for yourself. And I remember reading that
thinking, oh my God, I do not want to be on my
(19:06):
deathbed thinking I should have just lived for
myself instead of everybody else lived. And that's
part, I think, of perfectionism because you're
trying to do all the things to all people except
for yourself.
>> Monica Packer (19:19):
And you know, so I think if we were to pave like,
so what is the other way then? How can we get to
the point where we don't have that regret on our
last breath? we have to start with something we've
just fleshed out a bit and it's compassion, it's
self compassion. And that is oppositional to the
perfectionistic way, which is shame.
(19:39):
Perfectionists live off of shame. It's that inner
monologue you always have of try. Come on, just do
it. What's wrong with you? Get up. And it's like
that. It seems like the persistence, it seems like
perseverance, but it's shame. so instead we have
to actually start with something different, which
is compassion. And a lot of women are terrified of
(19:59):
that because again, they think compassion equates
apathy. It doesn't. And actually there's a lot of
research on that. Kristen Neff is an Amazing
research researcher on that topic specifically,
and so is Brene Brown. But compassion is actually
the way forward because to me what compassion does
is it helps you actually see things more
objectively. It's not about saying oh poor me,
(20:20):
like I have the worst life and I'm going to stay
here. Compassion is what helps you validate and
accept why you are where you are so that you can
then get objective facts about what needs to
change forward. Compassion is also incredibly
necessary to making progress because guess what's
going to happen? You're going to make mistakes.
(20:41):
Failures are going to happen. You're going to,
you're going to have to pivot, you're going to
have to change your mind. you're going to get
messy. Perfectionists hate that. They're always
trying to avoid that. And again like what you
avoid you find just like you do with yourself,
right?
>> Wendy Valentine (20:56):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (20:57):
So compassion also gives you a way to work
through, through the messy middle differently
because you're allowed to make mistakes. You
expect them. You don't just accept it, you expect
that they're going to happen and you work through
it differently.
So that's one big thing I think we can say and
there's of course others but if we can start with
that, I think especially women who are at this
(21:19):
phase of life, that's number one, compassion. I
was just working with a woman, I've worked with
her for several months on trying to make progress
in her life. And we've had to start with the self
compassion piece because she has an inner voice
that we've nicknamed Sharon because it's shame
plus Karen mixed together in her head. that voice
(21:42):
has been driving her her entire life. Yeah. You
know she's, and she's middle aged too. She's. And
she's trying to sort through like how do I do this
in a different way. And she told me recently, you
are the first person in my entire life who taught
me that I can try from a different place. That I
don't have to move forward out of self criticism
(22:04):
and harshness with myself. But in doing com.
passionately I can change. And she is changing.
And pretty.
>> Wendy Valentine (22:11):
Is that amazing? Isn't that so cool?
>> Monica Packer (22:14):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (22:14):
And a lot of it, like I've always said like your,
your mind is either your best friend or your worst
enemy. Right. And then until you get quiet enough
to hear the, the Sharon. Yeah, you know, the, the
shameful Sharon, Karen, whatever. Right. Like
yeah, you have to listen to how you speak to
yourself.
(22:34):
And I know for me, like, I. Once I got quiet
enough, I was like, ooh, that is not good. girl,
you do.
>> Monica Packer (22:39):
She's not nice.
>> Wendy Valentine (22:40):
Yes.
>> Monica Packer (22:41):
She's not nice in there.
>> Wendy Valentine (22:42):
Awful. And.
And sometimes that voice has been built up for a
long time, which means right as, you know, like
it. It can take a while to rewire that. Br. Rewire
those thoughts. But it's totally, totally
possible. And you. You end up kind of coaching
yourself eventually where you'll hear that voice.
(23:03):
You're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, we are
not doing that today. No.
>> Monica Packer (23:08):
And just.
>> Wendy Valentine (23:09):
And again, it's the compassion towards yourself.
Like, no, it's okay if you're having a bad day.
It's okay that you can't get every single thing
done. It's totally okay. Like speaking to yourself
as if it's your best friend.
>> Monica Packer (23:24):
Mm, Mm And it's. It's really weird at first. It
feels like trying on a suit that doesn't fit.
Yeah. It's a brand new fit and it's a new style
and you know, it's just new. And so luckily I wish
this is where the clothes work, but the more you
try it on.
>> Wendy Valentine (23:40):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (23:40):
The more comfortable it feels and m. The better it
feels fits too. So it actually takes a surprising
amount of courage to do things differently. And
that's actually the second big thing to me is you
have to have the courage to do things differently
because going off this beaten track of all or
(24:01):
nothing is scary. There's a part of you that is
going to be convinced I can only change if I am
going full out all the time or if I'm really harsh
with myself, if I never let anything slide. And
it's scary and it takes a lot of courage to do
something differently.
>> Wendy Valentine (24:20):
Hey there, Wendy.
Here.
I want to share something that's been a total game
changer for me. Qualia Life supplements.
I started taking them back in 2020 and honestly,
they were the first supplements I'd ever tried
where I could actually feel a difference right
away. More energy, more focus, and a whole lot
(24:41):
more motivation to take on my day. What I love is
that Qualia Life is all about creating cutting
edge health.
And wellness products using complex system
science.
When I was writing my book Women Waking Up, I took
Qualia Mind and.
No joke, I wrote over 60,000 words in 60 days.
(25:04):
My brain was sharp, my mood was lifted, and I felt
unstoppable. Two of my other must haves is Qualia
Night so I can sleep peacefully.
And wake up feeling refreshed.
Not groggy. And their aging backwards bundle,
which includes.
Qualia Senolytic to help your body naturally clear
(25:25):
out old quote unquote zombie cells just two days a
month.
And Qualia NAD plus, clinically proven to boost
NAD levels by 67%, supporting energy and longevity
at the cellular level.
I highly recommend their products and because.
I know you're all about thriving in.
(25:47):
Midlife, Qualia Life is giving listeners of.
The Midlife Makeover show podcast an exclusive 15%
off.
How nice is that?
Just head to tinyurl.com qualia life that's
tinyurl.com qualia life and use the code midlife
(26:14):
at checkout. Trust me, your mind and body will
thank you.
And now back to the show.
>> Monica Packer (26:21):
Now, I used to be a middle school teacher and the
first year I taught, I thought to be a good
teacher. Now I was teaching, I was teaching urban
suburban kids and it was, it was tough. It was
really tough and I knew I had to be on it. And as
a first year teacher, you know, you have to
pretend that you have, that you have all
confidence and full power and all that. I thought
(26:44):
as part of that that meant I was on every little
mistake.
>> Wendy Valentine (26:49):
Yes.
>> Monica Packer (26:49):
I, wouldn't let a thing go. I was always on top of
like hyperactive about who's doing what in a way
that it was all negative. Right. My second year of
teaching, I was lucky to be paired with this
amazing teacher. We would, she was a special ed,
teacher and we would combine our classes and. And
her special ed kids, you know, had a lot of
behavioral issues, which I now have five kids and
(27:12):
most of mine too, so I understand they have a lot
of special needs and behavioral issues. She
transformed my teaching and later how I navigate
talking to myself. Because her biggest form of
discipline was actually about calling out the
good. And that shift dramatically transformed my
(27:34):
teaching and then dramatically went on to
transform my parenting and now my self parenting.
>> Wendy Valentine (27:40):
Calling out the good within yourself.
>> Monica Packer (27:42):
Yeah. And it's not about only doing that because
for a while in the parenting space, that was what
it was. It was like only positive reinforcement.
Never water the weeds. But you're like, but Jimmy
just hit Pam. And like, so do I just ignore that?
And some people were like, yes, you ignore it and
no you don't. So yes, there's going to be an
awareness that is like, yeah, I did that wrong.
(28:03):
Yeah, I messed, up. Yeah. That I feel guilty, I
feel bad about that. I don't like that. I want to
live that way. I don't want to make that mistake
again. There is a calling out that way. But if
that's the only voice in your head, you're going
to get back to that stuck point again. We have to
be able to have an open view of the good too. And
that's a big part of the compassion pieces. You
(28:24):
have to find the moments where you are living in
alignment and you call it out every chance you
get. If that's even smiling at the cashier who was
a little grumpy. Call it out. Look at me. I smiled
at someone who wasn't very nice to me. I was my.
>> Wendy Valentine (28:40):
And I think women, we were not the greatest at
giving ourselves a little pat on the back.
>> Monica Packer (28:45):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (28:45):
You know, like I, that's one thing I have been
learning to do as well. Like, especially if
there's a lot going on in your life where you're
trying to do check off all the boxes and do all
everything. Like. Yeah, stop it. To congratulate
yourself. Like, whoo. Even if it's something so,
small, like, oh yeah, congratulations, you did not
(29:06):
lose your today. You could have, you know what I
mean? Like, yeah.
>> Monica Packer (29:10):
Or you only lost it halfway and ah, you stopped
yourself. Like sometimes that's what I call that.
Like, oh, you stopped yourself mid yell and good
job. Like, and again, it's not about being
patronizing to yourself. This is really, this is
brain and like behavioral, science. Like, this is
how we change. We have to call out any little sign
(29:33):
that we're on the right track because this is how
we change. Not just the way we behave, but the way
we see ourselves, which is essential to
everything.
>> Wendy Valentine (29:42):
Yes, I would think maybe. Because I can relate.
Again, the perfectionists can also be fixers.
Yeah. Fixing others, fixing their environment,
trying to fix themselves, Trying to fix all the
things to make everything perfect so that
everything is good.
>> Monica Packer (30:04):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (30:04):
And that's exhausting in itself. And I would think
also that that breeds anxiety or like you said,
like depression. I mean, perfectionism really is.
Can be such a monster with lots of grit. Like the
gremlins. I don't know.
>> Monica Packer (30:21):
Oh, totally.
>> Wendy Valentine (30:22):
Yeah, right. Remember the gremlins, like they
would just start multiplying. It's like that and
they just get out of control.
>> Monica Packer (30:29):
I really think it's like a route to so many
things. Like we see the tree, you know, above
ground, but it's like a very big root to so many
issues underneath. It comes back to that.
>> Wendy Valentine (30:41):
What do you do if you are in a relationship with a
perfectionist and you're also a perfectionist? And
you're trying to change how you think about
yourself and your environment and your
relationships, and you have someone else that is
still behaving in such perfectionist ways that
(31:03):
you're not able to do all the things to please
them because they are also a perfectionist.
>> Monica Packer (31:09):
Yeah, I, actually have, worked with a woman like
that. Like, you know, we worked really hard on her
finding. So. So I. I forgot to say this. Like,
okay, so if we're. What's the opposite of. Of
perfectionism? It's not nothing. That's actually
perfectionism. It's not doing nothing. It's
actually making progress. It's doing. It's moving
forward in a new way with compassion and awareness
(31:30):
and positive reinforcement and getting messy and
making space for failure, allowing yourself to be
human. Okay, so when you're on that path and you
are finding some momentum there, and you are like,
whoa, I am making changes. And what do you know?
Like, I don't have to be mean to myself to change
in some really important ways. But so and so is
not with me. So and so is lagging behind. And I,
(31:52):
You. You. Because you're ahead of them, you can
see. You can see behind exactly why they are the
way they are. And also, they may not just be
behind you. They may be, like, lassoing you and
trying to pull. Yes. Back.
>> Wendy Valentine (32:04):
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Because you've shifted everything.
>> Monica Packer (32:08):
Yes. Stay here with me. And also, like, that's not
the right way. Like, so they. There's going to be
many reasons why. This is where I'm going to say a
couple things. The first is, your circumstances do
matter. I hate when life coaching. And again, I'm
a coach when, like, life coaching is like, you can
only. Like your circumstances are neutral. Only
(32:31):
worry about yourself. That's not. That's. That's
being a sociopath. That's not the kind of world we
want to live in. So with that acknowledgment, you
can only control yourself. You can't fix even
their perfectionism. You truly can't. So is it
hurting you? Is it. Is it.
>> Wendy Valentine (32:50):
Is it.
>> Monica Packer (32:50):
Is it weighing, on you? Is it affecting your life?
Yes. And you can validate that while also knowing,
I can't change them. I can't fix them. I can keep
going on the path I'm on and work on myself, and I
can also invite them to change, too, and I can
pressure them to change in a way where it's still
(33:11):
respecting, like, the boundaries of how far I can
go with that. But I have to acknowledge That I can
only control myself.
And that's where it kind of gets to a third thing.
I mean, a lot of times, we have to choose
different paths or we have to ask someone. And I,
again, I think the word is invite them to join us
(33:32):
on a different path. And that's a choice they have
to make. And.
>> Wendy Valentine (33:36):
Right.
>> Monica Packer (33:36):
Get, you know, because, yeah, obviously.
>> Wendy Valentine (33:39):
Get one. Yeah. Because obviously that affects the
relationship, the perfectionism. if. Especially if
you have two. And that could even be. It doesn't
necessarily have to be a partner. It could be a
parent, it could be a friend.
>> Monica Packer (33:51):
Oh, for sure. Good point.
>> Wendy Valentine (33:52):
A co worker. I mean, your boss. Like, there's so
many different ways. And. And I would think, too,
Holy moly. Like, yeah, talk about gremlins. That.
That can trigger you. Because if you have a, If
you're in a relationship with a perfectionist and
you're trying to get out of that and trying to put
on a different outfit, as you say, right. Like,
(34:14):
that'll make you want to go put the old outfit
back on. So that's so hard to break that. But you
have to. I would think you have to just remind
yourself of how exhausting wearing that old outfit
is. And it's just like, it does not fit anymore. I
can't. And I think it's like Einstein said that,
(34:35):
like, once you're. Once your mind is expanded to a
different level, you can't go back. You can't.
It's. It's really difficult to truly go back. You
can pretend and you can fake yourself, but once
you've had those aha, moments, like in the family
van, you know, looking out the window, you're
like, it's really hard to go back to reverse an
(34:56):
aha. Epiphany. It really. Which is great. But in
order. Right. To make these things stick, you have
to just.
>> Monica Packer (35:06):
It's.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:07):
It's creating a new habit within your mind, within
your heart, within your essence, within your
psyche.
>> Monica Packer (35:15):
Yeah. And. And I think this really gets to one
other thing we can do, regardless of it, if. If it
has to do with someone's clothes close to us who
was kind of, you know, lassoing us and trying to
keep us where we are or also trying to push us
back to where we used to be and let's be on the
same path together. we've talked about having
compassion.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:33):
Ah.
>> Monica Packer (35:33):
We've talked about having courage. Another one is
having curiosity. Okay. Curiosity about yourself
mainly. You know, like, if you make a mistake
getting curious about it, if you feel stuck
because we all, we keep reaching little plateaus.
That's just how growth looks like. Growth is messy
progress. Yes.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:54):
That's not good for a perfectionist.
>> Monica Packer (35:56):
It doesn't feel good. Right. But that's why you
keep going. Is it working for you? I mean, let's
use Dr. Phil. Yeah. Like, is it working for you?
Yeah, it's not like it doesn't work. Ultimately,
you're paying a price. So if you own that this is
what it looks like to grow. It looks messy, it
looks like making mistakes, it looks like
questioning, it looks like hitting plateaus, it
looks like feeling stuck occasionally, then you
(36:17):
know you're not on the right, the wrong path. And
you can have curiosity about, well, what's next,
or what was driving me to this point. curiosity
about people in your life. I wonder why it is that
they think that's the way I wonder why they feel
stuck. Like, so that for that one client, their
perfectionisms were different. Hers was more about
like a hustle and his is more about fear and
saying, well, they're both about fear. But his was
(36:38):
more about holding back and, and, and, and staying
on the sidelines or procrastinating and, and you
know, kind of putting their head in the sand
again.
>> Wendy Valentine (36:46):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Monica Packer (36:47):
The opposite of perfectionism isn't doing nothing.
That's still perfectionism. So that's what he was
doing more. So getting curiosity about that is, I
think, a way more compassionate and also
courageous way to try to work, move forward still
in relationship with other people and to figure
out what those relationships need to look like
(37:08):
now. Because you're changing and you're wearing a
new suit and on a new path.
>> Wendy Valentine (37:14):
Yeah. And this next thing that I'm about to bring
up, I can relate to as well because this happened
to me. but with boundaries. Because as you realize
that you've, you've been carrying, you know, all
of these perfectionist, ways and the approval
seeking and all the other labels, and as you start
(37:34):
to take those labels off and you're like, wait a
second, this person I cannot please because they
are unpleasable. and as you start to set
boundaries and then the one thing that you fear,
like, okay, for me example, is that I feared being
abandoned. And sure enough, what happened is that
as I was like, wait a second, I am tired of being
(37:57):
a perfectionist. I'm tired of trying to please all
these people and seek approval and all of that.
Soon as I started to set boundaries, woo wee. Mm
mm. They did not like that because I was
definitely upsetting the apple cart, so I lost
relationships. But, oh, my gosh, I would not trade
(38:18):
it for the peace that I have in my heart and the
freedom that I have in my life. And what I'm.
There's no, like, right now, you and I having this
conversation right now on my show or having been
on your show or having written a book. None of it
would have happened if I had not given up that
(38:40):
perfectionism. It would not have happened. And.
>> Monica Packer (38:45):
And I just want to validate that, because, again,
a lot of women stay stuck on the sidelines because
they do know it's going to be disruptive. It is
going to require change in my family and my
marriage, with my kids, with my loved ones, you
know, outside. And I just want to help them still
lean into the courage to. To own that. What if
(39:09):
it's for better?
>> Wendy Valentine (39:10):
Yeah, exactly.
>> Monica Packer (39:12):
What. And. And, I would actually say for many
people, it's disruptive to relationships, but it
makes relationships better for some.
Yeah. It. It means we're on different paths now,
but regardless, it's for the better.
>> Wendy Valentine (39:27):
Yeah. And you end up gaining more loving, solid,
authentic relationships. People that love you for
you, not for what they think that you are, what
you're trying to be and doing all the things.
>> Monica Packer (39:44):
It's lonely on a pedestal.
>> Wendy Valentine (39:46):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (39:47):
That was actually my number one motivator to
changing in a. In a new way. Because I realized my
perfectionistic tendencies were harming my
relationships.
>> Wendy Valentine (39:57):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (39:58):
I mean, I wasn't really noble to my husband.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:01):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (40:01):
Because I wasn't allowed to really be human to
myself and to him. and I was showing up
differently than how I am to my kids because of
the prices I was paying and how, you know, it came
out with them. So that actually, the relationship
can be one of your biggest motivators and reasons
to do this work.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:22):
And I don't. I mean, I would think, too, that as
you start to accept more of yourself, that you're
putting out that vibe and that frequency and that
energy to others, that you accept them, too. That
you're not.
>> Monica Packer (40:36):
To be human. Your children.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:38):
Yeah. Your children, your friends, your family,
society. Like, I mean, I. There are people. We
probably could all think of someone right now.
There's someone out there that you. That, you
know, even if it's the barista at Starbucks, that
it's someone that's just. They're just real.
They're just, like, who they are. Yep. Huh?
Uh-huh.
I said that. Yep. I just fell on my face. Yep.
(40:59):
Like. And I can remember Being that perfectionist,
going, God, I wish I could be like that. God, I
wish I could just be like, yep, I just fell on my
face. So, yeah. And it's so refreshing when you
meet a human being that's just being human. They
(41:20):
love themselves no matter what. And, and I think
you just, you open your life up and your heart to
so much more. When you let go of all of.
>> Monica Packer (41:31):
That, it's like, oh, yeah, that was the number one
motivator and it's been the number one benefit.
Improved relationships. And, and I want to be
real. Like, it shouldn't just have to be like, we
change because other people's lives will get
better. We can, we can do it just because we
deserve things to be better too. But that is one
(41:54):
of the biggest trickle down effects too, that I
think can, can motivate us and be a reason, one of
the reasons that we change. yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (42:02):
Yeah.
Jamie Kern Lima, her book, I had well listened to
her book and read it as well, Worthy. And I
remember her talking about, you know, she had
started, IT Cosmetics and she had gone on to, what
is it, HSN or whatever. One of the shopping
(42:22):
network. Yes. Yeah. And she just had, she had
these feelings, these thoughts of like, I'm not
worthy, I'm not worthy to, to do this business.
And I'm not, I'm not good enough. I'm not smart
enough. That's all like, just the perfectionism M.
And letting go of that and just giving yourself
permission to just be. That's such a beautiful
(42:44):
thing when you can just let that go.
>> Monica Packer (42:49):
And I will say it takes time. I mean, we talked
about that and you've mentioned it several times
too, which is so nice for people to hear. And
oftentimes the starting isn't actually the huge
thing. Things it's not about, like changing your
entire life, and every part of your life. Instead
of the all or nothing. What I would encourage
women to do is to do something. And I'm not saying
(43:10):
that in a toxic positivity where they do something
like, today's your day. I'm. I'm literally saying
something. Start with something. Try something
that, you have always wanted to start there. Start
with something fun. What if you allowed yourself
to be messy at learning a new skill? What if you
joined an adult tap dancing class? What if you
learned how to quilt? What if you joined twice?
(43:33):
What is it? Toastmasters?
>> Wendy Valentine (43:35):
Oh, yeah, I did that.
>> Monica Packer (43:36):
Yes.
>> Wendy Valentine (43:37):
That was part of my, that was part of my doing,
was like, I'm gonna do this yes.
>> Monica Packer (43:41):
What if you went to a new workout class? Like,
what if you actually picked up the hobby that.
What if you started with something fun and you did
it in a different way? Were you allowed to not do
it perfectly where it was still about one step
after the next about doing something? And even
with that, to start small, because that's what I
actually did in that moment. If we're returning
back to that original story, is it began with me
(44:03):
making a list of 30 things I wanted to do before I
turned 30. And it's now known to my community as
the do something list. I make one every year. I've
never completed a list. And now the 11 years I've
made one every year, never completed it. It's not
about that. It's about exploration. It's about
learning who I am. It's about making messy
(44:24):
progress towards the things that matter to me.
It's about living my life and not being on the
sidelines of my life. And it changed my life. That
that was the first thing. And then it trickled
down to so many other things and that's what
really changed so much for me. So start with doing
something. Just do something.
>> Wendy Valentine (44:43):
I was just about to ask you, is all of this, is it
an inside job or some of it's an outside job?
Obviously I think it's always both. Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (44:52):
Yeah. The nurture nature question, mindset is so
important, but this is why I'm a habits and
identity coach. Like, those that is deep and
practical, they work hand in hand.
>> Wendy Valentine (45:04):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (45:05):
And even like when I'm having someone intensely
work on a behavior and how like we're changing
what's on the outside, but every time they do
something the way they want to, where it's showing
a little bit of progress, they have to constantly
affirm it deeply. Because it works hand in hand
together. So. Yeah, it's both. It's both.
>> Wendy Valentine (45:24):
Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah. Taking action
and then no matter what the result is, and just
congratulating yourself that you took the action
to be even trying.
>> Monica Packer (45:34):
Even trying is going to be a huge thing for a lot
of women. And, and what honestly gave me the right
to do that is, I almost named my online work at
the time Mediocre Monica. Because I just started
with like, I'm going to share me about me trying
to do things messy and that I'm allowed to be
mediocre. And, giving myself permission to do that
(45:57):
again is what led to dramatic exponential change
and progress in all areas of my life. Mm.
>> Wendy Valentine (46:04):
M. So it's been what, 10 years since. Almost 10
years.
>> Monica Packer (46:09):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (46:09):
Yep. Since that moment.
>> Monica Packer (46:11):
Yeah. Which is so weird. It's weird, it's weird to
think on.
But, I'll just end with this quick little story.
Nineteen years ago, I went on a study abroad when
I was at the height of my overachieving
perfectionism. It was truly a once in a lifetime
experience. Like I was a fifth of seven kids. No
one in my family had been outside of the states
(46:32):
ever. My dad was a huge history buff. He knew
everything about World War I, which I was studying
there. World War II, never been. And I got to go
see everything because we went to France too. And
my whole trip was, was tainted with the price I
was paying at that time, which was. It became very
obvious I had an eating disorder. All I could
(46:56):
think about was food and exercise. That entire
trip I wasn't there. I wasn't present to it. two
weeks ago I just returned from a trip and I went
to London and it was 19 years later again, like I
hadn't been back. And I walked around, I spent a
whole day, I walked 12 miles my last day just
around London. And I got to visit all these places
(47:16):
I visited on my study abroad, like in one single
day. And I am not an emotional person. I actually
am working on it. I'm trying to feel things more.
I basically wept the whole day in ways that
shocked me. Like I was so shocked. And why is.
Because I felt like I was embodying the change
(47:39):
that I started 19 years prior. First when I came
home from that trip and went and got help from a
counselor. And even more embodying the last 10
years where I changed in a new way. And the whole
day I just felt so grateful to past me for
refusing to continue on the path I was in on and
(48:01):
thinking that that was the only way of daring to
try and to do it messy. Because I will tell you,
for years I thought I wasn't changing. In my
initial recovery, I thought I wasn't changing
actually. Things got worse for a long time. But
now, 19 years later, I'm a different person. And
now 10 years later, after trying in a new way, I'm
a. I wouldn't even say a new person. I would say
(48:21):
I'm, me. That's what I felt. That whole day I felt
like I'm me, I'm Monica and I'm actually here. I'm
living this life. I'm present to this moment and
I'm experiencing it in ways I couldn't have 10
years ago, and I couldn't have 19 years ago. So if
that can be a motivator for the woman, it's never
too late. But also, don't. Wait, don't.
>> Wendy Valentine (48:44):
You're making me cry.
>> Monica Packer (48:47):
Well, that's.
>> Wendy Valentine (48:47):
I'm so, so freaking proud of you. Well, you
literally were looking at, ah, London with new
glasses on, with a new outfit. I was.
>> Monica Packer (48:57):
I was metaphor. And it felt. It felt like a
miracle. Like, it felt like I was living out a
miracle that was several years in the making and
that only was possible because I dared to do it
differently.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:10):
Yes.
Ah, Love it. That was a good. See, this is why I
interviewed you now, because you wouldn't have had
that so story.
>> Monica Packer (49:18):
I wouldn't have had that story.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:20):
Girl.
>> Monica Packer (49:20):
I didn't even know. I didn't even know. And to be
honest, that trip is now I'm like, I think I'm due
for another midlife crisis because that trip has
made me think about other big things. I'm like,
maybe I should make other new decisions and do a
different, you know, so it's okay.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:32):
It's a midlife catalyst.
>> Monica Packer (49:35):
That's right. I love how you. You were that. It is
a catalyst. It's another catalyst moment.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:41):
it's. It's a beautiful thing. I mean, talk about
progress.
>> Monica Packer (49:45):
That's right.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:46):
All right, so tell us where we can find you all
the good things. And you've got a book coming out.
Well, it's. It's in the works.
>> Monica Packer (49:53):
Yeah, it's in the work.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:54):
It's in the messy works.
>> Monica Packer (49:55):
It is. I'm. I'm about 85% done writing it, so you
know that still half of the work.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:02):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (50:03):
So it's supposed to be released in the fall of
2026. it's called Happy Habits, so we'll see. but
if they want to stay tuned for that, I think the
biggest thing to do is actually go to my podcast
that's called About Progress. and they can find me
wherever they search for that. And then I also do
have a free training on the do something list if
they want to do that. It's never a bad time. I
make mine in January of every year, but a lot of
(50:26):
people make it like seasonally or mid year, it
doesn't matter. So you can go to about
progress.com, dSL and that stands for do something
list. And there's a free training.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:35):
I, love it. You're. You're awesome. You'll have to
come back when the. When the book comes out.
>> Monica Packer (50:39):
Oh, I'd love to, because we didn't even get to
talk about habits. that would have been another.
Oh, yeah, three hours. But, yeah, it would have
been a long time, so. So we'll come. I'd love to
come back.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:50):
This is. This is going to be in one of my top
five. I really. Maybe. Because I can connect with
it so much. I don't know. I mean, but this is. And
I just think so many women need it. I mean, it's
one of the things I just really, really want with
women to wake up to. To go do the things as messy.
>> Monica Packer (51:08):
I have your book right here.
>> Wendy Valentine (51:10):
Oh, I know. Me too. Wake up. Thank you, Monica.
You're the best.
>> Monica Packer (51:16):
Thanks for having me. And thank you for. For being
here and giving me, like, the only way I could
show up and tell these stories is because you
truly did give me that opportunity. And you're an
amazing host. So thank you.
>> Wendy Valentine (51:28):
Thank you, best guest. I, like, best guest. Thank
you, Monica.
Did this podcast inspire you? Challenge you?
Trigger you to make a change or.
Spit out your coffee laughing?
Good. Then there are three ways you can thank me.
Number one, you can leave a written review of this
podcast on Apple iTunes. Number two, you can take
(51:51):
a screenshot of the episode and share it on the
social media and. And tag me Wendy Valentine.
Number three, share it with another midlifer that
needs a makeover. You know who I'm talking about.
Thank you so much for listening to the show. Get
out there and be bold. Be free. Be you.
(52:21):
Sam.
It's lonely on a pedestal. That was actually my
(00:03):
number one motivator to changing in a, in a new
way because I realized my perfectionistic
tendencies were harming my relationships. I mean,
I wasn't really noble to my husband because I
wasn't allowed to really be human to myself and to
him. and I was showing up differently than how I
am to my kids because of the prices I was paying
(00:25):
and how, you know, it came out with them. So that
actually the relationship can be one of your
biggest motivators and reasons to do this work.
>> Wendy Valentine (00:37):
Hey there, beautiful. I'm Wendy Valentine, your
host of the Midlife Makeover show, where it's
never too late to wake up to your best life.
Whether you're navigating a career change, empty
nesting, menopause, or wondering what's next,
you're in the right place. Every week, I'll bring
you real talk, laughs and inspiring conversations
(00:58):
with experts and extraordinary women who have
transformed their lives from self care and
relationships to starting over and finding
freedom. This is your time to reinvent,
rediscover, and reignite the woman you were always
meant to be. So hit that subscribe button and,
let's rewrite the rules of midlife. Your new
(01:18):
adventure starts now.
Foreign.
Are there sights, sounds or smells that remind you
of a past traumatic event causing you to fight,
flight or freeze? These physical and emotional
(01:40):
responses are called triggers, and they happen to
all of us. Triggers can be tricky, but the key is
to stop the trigger in its tracks and turn the
trigger into a treasure. Just like Dr. Nicole Lera
said, there's nothing negative about being
triggered. It's a calling to heal our wounds. To
help you heal those wounds, I created a free
(02:02):
download called the Trigger to Treasure technique,
where you will learn the four steps on how to
identify your triggers, how to control your
triggers, and how you can move past your past so
you can live peacefully in the present moment.
Please go to Wendy Valentine.com forward/trigger
(02:23):
to receive your free download and you can begin to
turn your triggers into treasures.
Welcome back to the Midlife Makeover Show. I'm
your host, Wendy Valentine. Today's guest is here
to help us break free from one of the biggest
traps holding women back from real change.
Perfectionism. Monica Packer is a recovering
(02:46):
perfectionist. Me too. Turned habits and identity
coach who's, on, a mission to help women make
progress over perfection. She's the creator and
host of the top rated podcast about progress,
which has inspired millions to embrace personal
growth that's actually sustainable, not Stressful.
(03:08):
In our conversation, Monica and I dive into why
women must approach habits differently. How to
stop labeling yourself as lazy and what to do when
you're tired, busy and overwhelmed but still want
to grow. Her insights are practical, freeing, and
deeply relatable. Because lasting transformation
(03:29):
doesn't come from getting it perfect. It comes
from getting it real.
>> Monica Packer (03:35):
Please welcome Monica to the show. Thanks for
having me, Wendy. I'm really happy to be here.
>> Wendy Valentine (03:42):
Yeah, thank you. And I loved being on your show.
We were just talking about that. I don't even know
when that was. It was such a blur. It was a few
weeks ago, but it was great. and, and I've been
trying to make progress ever since then.
>> Monica Packer (03:55):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (03:55):
So tell us. I want you to take us back December
2015. If I, if, if I had that correct, you were in
your, you were in the passenger seat of your
family van six months before you were going to
turn 30 years young. Take us, take us to that
epiphany, that wonderful aha moment that you had.
>> Monica Packer (04:17):
Well, I like to joke that I've had several midlife
crises, but that was my first so it was a little
premature. But that's kind of how I roll. I just
do things a little earlier than most. And I've
done the same with aging too, it appears. And
that's ok. Guess we're just joining the early
club. so that to me was an epiphany because I
realized in, you know, we have all those kind of
(04:38):
trickle moments like where we, we know things, we
think things, but they don't fully get embedded
and we don't have a full aha moment until
something really smacks us in the face. And that
was kind of that moment for me where I had been
long kind of having those trickle thoughts of
thinking I always want to do things and I never do
(04:58):
them or I always thought I'd be doing this and now
I'm not doing that at all. Or this used to be so
important to me and I never prioritize it at all
anymore. And I think there was something about
being in that passenger seat while my husband was
driving us to family dinner at his, at his parents
house and having a second to actually think
(05:19):
because at that point we had three, three young
children, all three. And and younger. And now I
have two more. But my husband worked in San
Francisco. We never ever saw him like it. We never
saw him, you know, couldn't pay for any, any help.
My in laws were often out of the states so they
weren't able to Contribute. Anyway, I just. It was
(05:39):
my first real moment in a long time to just think.
And as I realized, oh, in six months, I'm turning
the big three o. And I realized that list is too
long. Of all the I wish I could, or I wonder if I
could, or I love that they're doing that, or I
could never. And as part of that realization,
(06:01):
realizing, okay, so I'm on the sidelines of my own
life. Why? Why am I on the sidelines of my own
life? I thankfully had a really great therapist
that I got soon after that time because I was
dealing with, you know, some major other things
like depression, that I had to work through. And
she pointed out to something to me that I didn't
realize. And I can't remember if it was before or
(06:22):
after this. I think it might have been a little
bit before. That's one of the trickle thoughts,
right? She pointed out that I was a perfectionist,
and I basically laughed in her face because I used
to be a perfectionist in quotes. I had aspired to
be a perfectionist for the first 20 years of my
life. And that's when I hit my first other midlife
crisis at 20, when I crashed and burned thanks to
(06:45):
prices I was paying, thanks to my overachieving
perfectionism. And then I spent the next 10 years
going to another pendulum swing. The other side of
the pendulum swing of perfectionism, which is
underachieving perfectionism. I just didn't know
that it was still perfectionism. And regardless of
what it looks like, the perfectionism pendulum
(07:06):
swing is where we are basing our identity off of
our outcomes. And the fear of failure is driving
us so hard to either over perform or underperform.
And it's all out of this fear of not measuring up.
And it can also be a coping mechanism, which we
know if you've been through something traumatic,
but for a lot of people, it's just that pendulum
swing. So identifying that in myself, having that
(07:29):
trickle thought that then amounted to that moment
in the car was for me that major light bulb of
being like, it's time to get off the sidelines.
But I have to do it in a way I've never done it
before. I have been on the all or nothing pendulum
swing my entire life, and for a lot of my life, it
looked good on the outside. I had all the
(07:51):
accolades and the achievements. I was doing really
well, but I paid the price for it. That created a
mental breakdown for me at 20 that then led to 10
years of not having accolades or achievements or
things that People were impressed by, and I still
was in the same place. I was paying a price, which
for me, again, was depression and falling apart.
(08:11):
So I had to find a different way to make progress
in my life that wasn't on that all or nothing
pendulum swing anymore. And that has now been 10
years. And, yeah, I feel like I'm about to
approach another midlife crisis. I'm sure it's
coming, but I have to say I have grown
exponentially the last 10 years than the first 20
(08:32):
when I was the overachieving, perfectionism,
perfectionist, and then the next 10 where I was
underachieving. Finding a new way has changed my
life.
>> Wendy Valentine (08:42):
I love it. Don't you love those aha moments?
>> Monica Packer (08:45):
M. Yeah. I wish I had them all the time, but I
have to pay attention more to the trickle
thoughts, you know, just like those little, like,
maybe you should pay attention to that. Over.
>> Wendy Valentine (08:55):
Yeah. Where. Where do you think that stemmed from
the whole perfectionism thing with you? If you go
back, you know, was it in your teen years? Was it
from society? Was it family, friends? Where do you
think it, like, originally came from?
>> Monica Packer (09:10):
This is a question I've pondered a lot because I
do get asked it and because I help so many women
through their perfectionistic ways, whether, you
know, wherever they are on that spectrum. I have
to say all of the above. Yes.
>> Wendy Valentine (09:24):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (09:25):
And I think that's how it often is for most women.
We can't really pinpoint it to one singular thing.
It's everything. It's kind of being that fish in
the water, you know, like we. It's the water we
are swimming in, especially as women, we pick up
on it without even being told directly that so
much of how you're perceived is based off of what
(09:45):
people can see, whether it's your appearance to
your achievements and identity, to me is a big
part of it too. I think, perfectionism, to me is a
misplacement of identity. It's misplacing who you
are off of those outcomes, whether you have them
or not. I mean, those 10 years where I was the
underachieving perfectionist, that was still my
identity of being someone who didn't do things
(10:07):
anymore, who didn't try. So for me, it's really
all of the above.
>> Wendy Valentine (10:12):
Did you feel like you also. With perfectionism,
you also had the other labels of. Were you an
approval seeker, codependent? what's the other
one? I'm trying to think of? what's the other one?
People pleaser. Yes.
>> Monica Packer (10:28):
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I think, I was. I've always been
really independent, so the codependency one
doesn't quite track for me, but it does for many
people. But the people pleasing one. Yes, I can
see that. You know what if I were to get to the
root of it really is I just wanted to be good.
>> Wendy Valentine (10:45):
Yeah. Be the good little girl. Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (10:48):
Yes. And, you know, that's how a lot of things
start, with good intentions. So it's not that we
were maliciously trying to set out to ruin our
lives and is that we were trying to actually be
good, but the way that's been presented to us for
so long is this perfectionistic model. I mean, how
long and how often have we heard perfectionism
(11:09):
being described as a. As a positive trait, as
something that someone was going to aspire to, or
even the humble brag, like, I'm imperfectionist,
so I have to do everything perfectly or I'm all or
nothing. You know, we aspire to it. And I caught
on and I wrote that hard because I also got
rewarded for it until the price was too high for
me. and a lot of that was, you know, at that point
(11:31):
in my life at 20s, I had multiple eating disorders
and depression and anxiety and panic disorders and
all those things like that. Those were the prices
I paid that nobody could see because of the,
because of the pillar I was on, really ahead of
everyone.
>> Wendy Valentine (11:47):
It's exhausting trying to maintain all that.
>> Monica Packer (11:51):
Totally exhausting. And it's not even.
>> Wendy Valentine (11:53):
Yeah. Not even accepting who you are.
>> Monica Packer (11:57):
Yeah. And nothing was enough. That's part of it
too. Part of being on that pendulum swing is you
can't get off of it because it's a hamster wheel
too. It's a cycle of hustling and doing, doing,
doing, burning out. And some people then go to
nothing for many years or some period of time and
they hop back on. Other people just amp it up to a
whole other level.
>> Wendy Valentine (12:15):
Yeah, I can totally relate to this whole thing.
>> Monica Packer (12:18):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (12:19):
I told you. I was like, I love this topic of
perfectionism because it hits so close for me. And
I cannot recall if I shared this on your show. I
might have, because we were probably talking about
some perfectionism there. But you're lucky. At
least you. You hit it at 30. it didn't hit me
until 50, but at least, at least it did click
(12:40):
finally for me. And my perfectionism stemmed from
when I was a little girl, when I got. When I was
abandoned. And, from being abandoned. I wanted to
be perfect so that no one would leave me again.
Right. Like, if I'm not perfect, I. I, may not be
loved. I may not be good enough or smart enough,
and therefore, they're going to leave me. And then
(13:02):
with that, and that's kind of why I was asking
about the different labels, I became a really good
people pleaser, you know, approval seeker. I was
doing all the things. Again, absolutely
exhausting. And then I also hit that phase in my
life, and I think that was probably shortly after
kids. Even though I was still doing all the things
to make sure everyone was happy except for me.
(13:24):
Right.
>> Monica Packer (13:24):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (13:25):
To assure that no one would leave me and everyone
would be happy with. With mom and As a friend, as
a daughter, as an. As a spouse, all the things.
And then it hit me at the age of 50, sitting on
top of a picnic table, overlooking. Right. Like,
we know these epiphanies, these aha moments. And I
was watching the sunset, and I realized I became
(13:48):
my greatest fear. My greatest fear was being
abandoned and that the one person that was
abandoning me the most was me. I was like, shit.
M. On five decades of trying to do m. All the
things. And one thing I realized is, that all
those people. Not to say that no one was grateful.
(14:09):
I'm not saying that. But they're all just doing
their thing. Right? Everyone's doing their life,
and it didn't really matter. Like, I was
exhausting myself for no reason at all. But then I
was giving up on all the dreams, and I. And then
I. I did go to the other end. I became like it
was. I couldn't be perfect enough. So it was,
>> Monica Packer (14:29):
What are they.
>> Wendy Valentine (14:29):
What does it say? An analysis by paralysis. Wait,
paralysis by analysis. They're the other way
around, right?
>> Monica Packer (14:34):
Yeah. Like, why try? Yeah. Step in the fear still.
Yes.
>> Wendy Valentine (14:39):
Yeah. You end up, like, you're doing all the
things, and then you're like, oh, my gosh. But
that I've proven I can't do it. All right? So then
therefore, then you just freeze, and then you.
You'll never. You end up not starting something
because it may not be perfect. So then you're
just, like, stuck.
>> Monica Packer (14:55):
Yep.
>> Wendy Valentine (14:56):
Frozen. And I don't know. I feel like that there's
a lot of women out there, especially I think, in
30s, 40s, 50s, that they hit that. And that's why
you. I'm stuck.
>> Monica Packer (15:09):
I'm.
>> Wendy Valentine (15:09):
So everyone just say, I'm stuck. I'm frozen. I
don't know what to do. I don't know what my
purpose is. I don't know what I'm excited About
everyone. They're like, yeah, who am I? Yeah,
let's, let's talk about that. Because that's. I
think that's huge for a lot of women. Like, what
if they do feel like they're just completely stuck
and paralyzed by their own fears?
(15:30):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (15:30):
Well, I would start by validating it because the
truth is, is they are. But a greater truth is it's
not necessarily their fault.
>> Wendy Valentine (15:41):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (15:41):
And I think that's one of the biggest things we
can tell women and help them learn is that in many
ways they've been set up to fail again. Because if
you were on that pendulum swing, then, you know,
you think the only way to do things is, is that
all right, so you're not given another model.
(16:04):
There's no in betweeners. There's no people really
sharing the messy middle. There are more now, I
would say, than when I started this work 10 years
ago. It was almost like an anomaly. To talk about
the messy middle and not doing things perfectly
and to talk about mental health too, was a big,
like what? People are talking about that now, but
things are a little better, I would say. But
because we have been only given one way and we
(16:26):
have followed that way faithfully, we are missing
that we've been again, set up to fail. And what I
see so often happening with women is they get to
that point where they hit their wall or they have
that I'm on the hill and I'm seeing the sunset, or
I'm in the passenger side and I have a moment to
think and they get that big moment, that big
(16:46):
realization about where they are in their lives
and how they're feeling and how they don't want to
be here anymore and then somehow blaming
themselves for it.
>> Wendy Valentine (16:55):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (16:56):
You know, thinking like, what's wrong with me? Why
didn't I try? Or why couldn't I have done this? Or
why can't I do it now? And we just have to start
by validating. Yeah, you are stuck, but it's not
just because you chose to. This was how you were
set out.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:15):
To end up, Right? Yeah. Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (17:18):
And I don't stay there, though. We don't stay
there. So we're going to talk about that too. We
don't.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:22):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (17:22):
Stay there.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:24):
Yeah. How do you get out of there?
>> Monica Packer (17:29):
Well, I think one thing that's really important to
know is validation does not equate apathy. So
accepting why you are where you are at.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:39):
Yes.
>> Monica Packer (17:40):
Doesn't mean you have to then stay there in that
apathy. That's where we get Resentful, bitter old
women.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:47):
Yes.
>> Monica Packer (17:47):
And I say that with full compassion. Because they,
a lot of them didn't have another way.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:52):
Right.
>> Monica Packer (17:53):
They didn't know there was another way. So we
don't, we still don't need to stay there. We don't
want to stay there and we don't have to stay
there.
>> Wendy Valentine (18:00):
Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I think, the
acceptance is, is a huge part of it. Like, all
right, this is, this is, I mean, when I look back
at that time in my life, I'm like, Wow. Like I, I
felt, I felt bad for, for that little girl, you
know, that little nine year old that had been
abandoned and she had to feel that she had to do
(18:22):
all the things in order to be loved. And you know,
which is so sad, you know, And I think also it's
like giving ourselves some grace. Like, no, it's,
it's okay. Like having those conversations with
your, that little girl, with the teenager, with
the 20 something year old. Because no, you are
(18:43):
not, you do not have to do all the things to be
who you are. You don't know. Like it's, I mean, I
think about, Bronnie Ware, right?
The top five regrets of the dying. And the number
one regret is living life for everybody else
except for yourself. And I remember reading that
thinking, oh my God, I do not want to be on my
(19:06):
deathbed thinking I should have just lived for
myself instead of everybody else lived. And that's
part, I think, of perfectionism because you're
trying to do all the things to all people except
for yourself.
>> Monica Packer (19:19):
And you know, so I think if we were to pave like,
so what is the other way then? How can we get to
the point where we don't have that regret on our
last breath? we have to start with something we've
just fleshed out a bit and it's compassion, it's
self compassion. And that is oppositional to the
perfectionistic way, which is shame.
(19:39):
Perfectionists live off of shame. It's that inner
monologue you always have of try. Come on, just do
it. What's wrong with you? Get up. And it's like
that. It seems like the persistence, it seems like
perseverance, but it's shame. so instead we have
to actually start with something different, which
is compassion. And a lot of women are terrified of
(19:59):
that because again, they think compassion equates
apathy. It doesn't. And actually there's a lot of
research on that. Kristen Neff is an Amazing
research researcher on that topic specifically,
and so is Brene Brown. But compassion is actually
the way forward because to me what compassion does
is it helps you actually see things more
objectively. It's not about saying oh poor me,
(20:20):
like I have the worst life and I'm going to stay
here. Compassion is what helps you validate and
accept why you are where you are so that you can
then get objective facts about what needs to
change forward. Compassion is also incredibly
necessary to making progress because guess what's
going to happen? You're going to make mistakes.
(20:41):
Failures are going to happen. You're going to,
you're going to have to pivot, you're going to
have to change your mind. you're going to get
messy. Perfectionists hate that. They're always
trying to avoid that. And again like what you
avoid you find just like you do with yourself,
right?
>> Wendy Valentine (20:56):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (20:57):
So compassion also gives you a way to work
through, through the messy middle differently
because you're allowed to make mistakes. You
expect them. You don't just accept it, you expect
that they're going to happen and you work through
it differently.
So that's one big thing I think we can say and
there's of course others but if we can start with
that, I think especially women who are at this
(21:19):
phase of life, that's number one, compassion. I
was just working with a woman, I've worked with
her for several months on trying to make progress
in her life. And we've had to start with the self
compassion piece because she has an inner voice
that we've nicknamed Sharon because it's shame
plus Karen mixed together in her head. that voice
(21:42):
has been driving her her entire life. Yeah. You
know she's, and she's middle aged too. She's. And
she's trying to sort through like how do I do this
in a different way. And she told me recently, you
are the first person in my entire life who taught
me that I can try from a different place. That I
don't have to move forward out of self criticism
(22:04):
and harshness with myself. But in doing com.
passionately I can change. And she is changing.
And pretty.
>> Wendy Valentine (22:11):
Is that amazing? Isn't that so cool?
>> Monica Packer (22:14):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (22:14):
And a lot of it, like I've always said like your,
your mind is either your best friend or your worst
enemy. Right. And then until you get quiet enough
to hear the, the Sharon. Yeah, you know, the, the
shameful Sharon, Karen, whatever. Right. Like
yeah, you have to listen to how you speak to
yourself.
(22:34):
And I know for me, like, I. Once I got quiet
enough, I was like, ooh, that is not good. girl,
you do.
>> Monica Packer (22:39):
She's not nice.
>> Wendy Valentine (22:40):
Yes.
>> Monica Packer (22:41):
She's not nice in there.
>> Wendy Valentine (22:42):
Awful. And.
And sometimes that voice has been built up for a
long time, which means right as, you know, like
it. It can take a while to rewire that. Br. Rewire
those thoughts. But it's totally, totally
possible. And you. You end up kind of coaching
yourself eventually where you'll hear that voice.
(23:03):
You're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, we are
not doing that today. No.
>> Monica Packer (23:08):
And just.
>> Wendy Valentine (23:09):
And again, it's the compassion towards yourself.
Like, no, it's okay if you're having a bad day.
It's okay that you can't get every single thing
done. It's totally okay. Like speaking to yourself
as if it's your best friend.
>> Monica Packer (23:24):
Mm, Mm And it's. It's really weird at first. It
feels like trying on a suit that doesn't fit.
Yeah. It's a brand new fit and it's a new style
and you know, it's just new. And so luckily I wish
this is where the clothes work, but the more you
try it on.
>> Wendy Valentine (23:40):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (23:40):
The more comfortable it feels and m. The better it
feels fits too. So it actually takes a surprising
amount of courage to do things differently. And
that's actually the second big thing to me is you
have to have the courage to do things differently
because going off this beaten track of all or
(24:01):
nothing is scary. There's a part of you that is
going to be convinced I can only change if I am
going full out all the time or if I'm really harsh
with myself, if I never let anything slide. And
it's scary and it takes a lot of courage to do
something differently.
>> Wendy Valentine (24:20):
Hey there, Wendy.
Here.
I want to share something that's been a total game
changer for me. Qualia Life supplements.
I started taking them back in 2020 and honestly,
they were the first supplements I'd ever tried
where I could actually feel a difference right
away. More energy, more focus, and a whole lot
(24:41):
more motivation to take on my day. What I love is
that Qualia Life is all about creating cutting
edge health.
And wellness products using complex system
science.
When I was writing my book Women Waking Up, I took
Qualia Mind and.
No joke, I wrote over 60,000 words in 60 days.
(25:04):
My brain was sharp, my mood was lifted, and I felt
unstoppable. Two of my other must haves is Qualia
Night so I can sleep peacefully.
And wake up feeling refreshed.
Not groggy. And their aging backwards bundle,
which includes.
Qualia Senolytic to help your body naturally clear
(25:25):
out old quote unquote zombie cells just two days a
month.
And Qualia NAD plus, clinically proven to boost
NAD levels by 67%, supporting energy and longevity
at the cellular level.
I highly recommend their products and because.
I know you're all about thriving in.
(25:47):
Midlife, Qualia Life is giving listeners of.
The Midlife Makeover show podcast an exclusive 15%
off.
How nice is that?
Just head to tinyurl.com qualia life that's
tinyurl.com qualia life and use the code midlife
(26:14):
at checkout. Trust me, your mind and body will
thank you.
And now back to the show.
>> Monica Packer (26:21):
Now, I used to be a middle school teacher and the
first year I taught, I thought to be a good
teacher. Now I was teaching, I was teaching urban
suburban kids and it was, it was tough. It was
really tough and I knew I had to be on it. And as
a first year teacher, you know, you have to
pretend that you have, that you have all
confidence and full power and all that. I thought
(26:44):
as part of that that meant I was on every little
mistake.
>> Wendy Valentine (26:49):
Yes.
>> Monica Packer (26:49):
I, wouldn't let a thing go. I was always on top of
like hyperactive about who's doing what in a way
that it was all negative. Right. My second year of
teaching, I was lucky to be paired with this
amazing teacher. We would, she was a special ed,
teacher and we would combine our classes and. And
her special ed kids, you know, had a lot of
behavioral issues, which I now have five kids and
(27:12):
most of mine too, so I understand they have a lot
of special needs and behavioral issues. She
transformed my teaching and later how I navigate
talking to myself. Because her biggest form of
discipline was actually about calling out the
good. And that shift dramatically transformed my
(27:34):
teaching and then dramatically went on to
transform my parenting and now my self parenting.
>> Wendy Valentine (27:40):
Calling out the good within yourself.
>> Monica Packer (27:42):
Yeah. And it's not about only doing that because
for a while in the parenting space, that was what
it was. It was like only positive reinforcement.
Never water the weeds. But you're like, but Jimmy
just hit Pam. And like, so do I just ignore that?
And some people were like, yes, you ignore it and
no you don't. So yes, there's going to be an
awareness that is like, yeah, I did that wrong.
(28:03):
Yeah, I messed, up. Yeah. That I feel guilty, I
feel bad about that. I don't like that. I want to
live that way. I don't want to make that mistake
again. There is a calling out that way. But if
that's the only voice in your head, you're going
to get back to that stuck point again. We have to
be able to have an open view of the good too. And
that's a big part of the compassion pieces. You
(28:24):
have to find the moments where you are living in
alignment and you call it out every chance you
get. If that's even smiling at the cashier who was
a little grumpy. Call it out. Look at me. I smiled
at someone who wasn't very nice to me. I was my.
>> Wendy Valentine (28:40):
And I think women, we were not the greatest at
giving ourselves a little pat on the back.
>> Monica Packer (28:45):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (28:45):
You know, like I, that's one thing I have been
learning to do as well. Like, especially if
there's a lot going on in your life where you're
trying to do check off all the boxes and do all
everything. Like. Yeah, stop it. To congratulate
yourself. Like, whoo. Even if it's something so,
small, like, oh yeah, congratulations, you did not
(29:06):
lose your today. You could have, you know what I
mean? Like, yeah.
>> Monica Packer (29:10):
Or you only lost it halfway and ah, you stopped
yourself. Like sometimes that's what I call that.
Like, oh, you stopped yourself mid yell and good
job. Like, and again, it's not about being
patronizing to yourself. This is really, this is
brain and like behavioral, science. Like, this is
how we change. We have to call out any little sign
(29:33):
that we're on the right track because this is how
we change. Not just the way we behave, but the way
we see ourselves, which is essential to
everything.
>> Wendy Valentine (29:42):
Yes, I would think maybe. Because I can relate.
Again, the perfectionists can also be fixers.
Yeah. Fixing others, fixing their environment,
trying to fix themselves, Trying to fix all the
things to make everything perfect so that
everything is good.
>> Monica Packer (30:04):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (30:04):
And that's exhausting in itself. And I would think
also that that breeds anxiety or like you said,
like depression. I mean, perfectionism really is.
Can be such a monster with lots of grit. Like the
gremlins. I don't know.
>> Monica Packer (30:21):
Oh, totally.
>> Wendy Valentine (30:22):
Yeah, right. Remember the gremlins, like they
would just start multiplying. It's like that and
they just get out of control.
>> Monica Packer (30:29):
I really think it's like a route to so many
things. Like we see the tree, you know, above
ground, but it's like a very big root to so many
issues underneath. It comes back to that.
>> Wendy Valentine (30:41):
What do you do if you are in a relationship with a
perfectionist and you're also a perfectionist? And
you're trying to change how you think about
yourself and your environment and your
relationships, and you have someone else that is
still behaving in such perfectionist ways that
(31:03):
you're not able to do all the things to please
them because they are also a perfectionist.
>> Monica Packer (31:09):
Yeah, I, actually have, worked with a woman like
that. Like, you know, we worked really hard on her
finding. So. So I. I forgot to say this. Like,
okay, so if we're. What's the opposite of. Of
perfectionism? It's not nothing. That's actually
perfectionism. It's not doing nothing. It's
actually making progress. It's doing. It's moving
forward in a new way with compassion and awareness
(31:30):
and positive reinforcement and getting messy and
making space for failure, allowing yourself to be
human. Okay, so when you're on that path and you
are finding some momentum there, and you are like,
whoa, I am making changes. And what do you know?
Like, I don't have to be mean to myself to change
in some really important ways. But so and so is
not with me. So and so is lagging behind. And I,
(31:52):
You. You. Because you're ahead of them, you can
see. You can see behind exactly why they are the
way they are. And also, they may not just be
behind you. They may be, like, lassoing you and
trying to pull. Yes. Back.
>> Wendy Valentine (32:04):
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Because you've shifted everything.
>> Monica Packer (32:08):
Yes. Stay here with me. And also, like, that's not
the right way. Like, so they. There's going to be
many reasons why. This is where I'm going to say a
couple things. The first is, your circumstances do
matter. I hate when life coaching. And again, I'm
a coach when, like, life coaching is like, you can
only. Like your circumstances are neutral. Only
(32:31):
worry about yourself. That's not. That's. That's
being a sociopath. That's not the kind of world we
want to live in. So with that acknowledgment, you
can only control yourself. You can't fix even
their perfectionism. You truly can't. So is it
hurting you? Is it. Is it.
>> Wendy Valentine (32:50):
Is it.
>> Monica Packer (32:50):
Is it weighing, on you? Is it affecting your life?
Yes. And you can validate that while also knowing,
I can't change them. I can't fix them. I can keep
going on the path I'm on and work on myself, and I
can also invite them to change, too, and I can
pressure them to change in a way where it's still
(33:11):
respecting, like, the boundaries of how far I can
go with that. But I have to acknowledge That I can
only control myself.
And that's where it kind of gets to a third thing.
I mean, a lot of times, we have to choose
different paths or we have to ask someone. And I,
again, I think the word is invite them to join us
(33:32):
on a different path. And that's a choice they have
to make. And.
>> Wendy Valentine (33:36):
Right.
>> Monica Packer (33:36):
Get, you know, because, yeah, obviously.
>> Wendy Valentine (33:39):
Get one. Yeah. Because obviously that affects the
relationship, the perfectionism. if. Especially if
you have two. And that could even be. It doesn't
necessarily have to be a partner. It could be a
parent, it could be a friend.
>> Monica Packer (33:51):
Oh, for sure. Good point.
>> Wendy Valentine (33:52):
A co worker. I mean, your boss. Like, there's so
many different ways. And. And I would think, too,
Holy moly. Like, yeah, talk about gremlins. That.
That can trigger you. Because if you have a, If
you're in a relationship with a perfectionist and
you're trying to get out of that and trying to put
on a different outfit, as you say, right. Like,
(34:14):
that'll make you want to go put the old outfit
back on. So that's so hard to break that. But you
have to. I would think you have to just remind
yourself of how exhausting wearing that old outfit
is. And it's just like, it does not fit anymore. I
can't. And I think it's like Einstein said that,
(34:35):
like, once you're. Once your mind is expanded to a
different level, you can't go back. You can't.
It's. It's really difficult to truly go back. You
can pretend and you can fake yourself, but once
you've had those aha, moments, like in the family
van, you know, looking out the window, you're
like, it's really hard to go back to reverse an
(34:56):
aha. Epiphany. It really. Which is great. But in
order. Right. To make these things stick, you have
to just.
>> Monica Packer (35:06):
It's.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:07):
It's creating a new habit within your mind, within
your heart, within your essence, within your
psyche.
>> Monica Packer (35:15):
Yeah. And. And I think this really gets to one
other thing we can do, regardless of it, if. If it
has to do with someone's clothes close to us who
was kind of, you know, lassoing us and trying to
keep us where we are or also trying to push us
back to where we used to be and let's be on the
same path together. we've talked about having
compassion.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:33):
Ah.
>> Monica Packer (35:33):
We've talked about having courage. Another one is
having curiosity. Okay. Curiosity about yourself
mainly. You know, like, if you make a mistake
getting curious about it, if you feel stuck
because we all, we keep reaching little plateaus.
That's just how growth looks like. Growth is messy
progress. Yes.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:54):
That's not good for a perfectionist.
>> Monica Packer (35:56):
It doesn't feel good. Right. But that's why you
keep going. Is it working for you? I mean, let's
use Dr. Phil. Yeah. Like, is it working for you?
Yeah, it's not like it doesn't work. Ultimately,
you're paying a price. So if you own that this is
what it looks like to grow. It looks messy, it
looks like making mistakes, it looks like
questioning, it looks like hitting plateaus, it
looks like feeling stuck occasionally, then you
(36:17):
know you're not on the right, the wrong path. And
you can have curiosity about, well, what's next,
or what was driving me to this point. curiosity
about people in your life. I wonder why it is that
they think that's the way I wonder why they feel
stuck. Like, so that for that one client, their
perfectionisms were different. Hers was more about
like a hustle and his is more about fear and
saying, well, they're both about fear. But his was
(36:38):
more about holding back and, and, and, and staying
on the sidelines or procrastinating and, and you
know, kind of putting their head in the sand
again.
>> Wendy Valentine (36:46):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Monica Packer (36:47):
The opposite of perfectionism isn't doing nothing.
That's still perfectionism. So that's what he was
doing more. So getting curiosity about that is, I
think, a way more compassionate and also
courageous way to try to work, move forward still
in relationship with other people and to figure
out what those relationships need to look like
(37:08):
now. Because you're changing and you're wearing a
new suit and on a new path.
>> Wendy Valentine (37:14):
Yeah. And this next thing that I'm about to bring
up, I can relate to as well because this happened
to me. but with boundaries. Because as you realize
that you've, you've been carrying, you know, all
of these perfectionist, ways and the approval
seeking and all the other labels, and as you start
(37:34):
to take those labels off and you're like, wait a
second, this person I cannot please because they
are unpleasable. and as you start to set
boundaries and then the one thing that you fear,
like, okay, for me example, is that I feared being
abandoned. And sure enough, what happened is that
as I was like, wait a second, I am tired of being
(37:57):
a perfectionist. I'm tired of trying to please all
these people and seek approval and all of that.
Soon as I started to set boundaries, woo wee. Mm
mm. They did not like that because I was
definitely upsetting the apple cart, so I lost
relationships. But, oh, my gosh, I would not trade
(38:18):
it for the peace that I have in my heart and the
freedom that I have in my life. And what I'm.
There's no, like, right now, you and I having this
conversation right now on my show or having been
on your show or having written a book. None of it
would have happened if I had not given up that
(38:40):
perfectionism. It would not have happened. And.
>> Monica Packer (38:45):
And I just want to validate that, because, again,
a lot of women stay stuck on the sidelines because
they do know it's going to be disruptive. It is
going to require change in my family and my
marriage, with my kids, with my loved ones, you
know, outside. And I just want to help them still
lean into the courage to. To own that. What if
(39:09):
it's for better?
>> Wendy Valentine (39:10):
Yeah, exactly.
>> Monica Packer (39:12):
What. And. And, I would actually say for many
people, it's disruptive to relationships, but it
makes relationships better for some.
Yeah. It. It means we're on different paths now,
but regardless, it's for the better.
>> Wendy Valentine (39:27):
Yeah. And you end up gaining more loving, solid,
authentic relationships. People that love you for
you, not for what they think that you are, what
you're trying to be and doing all the things.
>> Monica Packer (39:44):
It's lonely on a pedestal.
>> Wendy Valentine (39:46):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (39:47):
That was actually my number one motivator to
changing in a. In a new way. Because I realized my
perfectionistic tendencies were harming my
relationships.
>> Wendy Valentine (39:57):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (39:58):
I mean, I wasn't really noble to my husband.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:01):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (40:01):
Because I wasn't allowed to really be human to
myself and to him. and I was showing up
differently than how I am to my kids because of
the prices I was paying and how, you know, it came
out with them. So that actually, the relationship
can be one of your biggest motivators and reasons
to do this work.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:22):
And I don't. I mean, I would think, too, that as
you start to accept more of yourself, that you're
putting out that vibe and that frequency and that
energy to others, that you accept them, too. That
you're not.
>> Monica Packer (40:36):
To be human. Your children.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:38):
Yeah. Your children, your friends, your family,
society. Like, I mean, I. There are people. We
probably could all think of someone right now.
There's someone out there that you. That, you
know, even if it's the barista at Starbucks, that
it's someone that's just. They're just real.
They're just, like, who they are. Yep. Huh?
Uh-huh.
I said that. Yep. I just fell on my face. Yep.
(40:59):
Like. And I can remember Being that perfectionist,
going, God, I wish I could be like that. God, I
wish I could just be like, yep, I just fell on my
face. So, yeah. And it's so refreshing when you
meet a human being that's just being human. They
(41:20):
love themselves no matter what. And, and I think
you just, you open your life up and your heart to
so much more. When you let go of all of.
>> Monica Packer (41:31):
That, it's like, oh, yeah, that was the number one
motivator and it's been the number one benefit.
Improved relationships. And, and I want to be
real. Like, it shouldn't just have to be like, we
change because other people's lives will get
better. We can, we can do it just because we
deserve things to be better too. But that is one
(41:54):
of the biggest trickle down effects too, that I
think can, can motivate us and be a reason, one of
the reasons that we change. yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (42:02):
Yeah.
Jamie Kern Lima, her book, I had well listened to
her book and read it as well, Worthy. And I
remember her talking about, you know, she had
started, IT Cosmetics and she had gone on to, what
is it, HSN or whatever. One of the shopping
(42:22):
network. Yes. Yeah. And she just had, she had
these feelings, these thoughts of like, I'm not
worthy, I'm not worthy to, to do this business.
And I'm not, I'm not good enough. I'm not smart
enough. That's all like, just the perfectionism M.
And letting go of that and just giving yourself
permission to just be. That's such a beautiful
(42:44):
thing when you can just let that go.
>> Monica Packer (42:49):
And I will say it takes time. I mean, we talked
about that and you've mentioned it several times
too, which is so nice for people to hear. And
oftentimes the starting isn't actually the huge
thing. Things it's not about, like changing your
entire life, and every part of your life. Instead
of the all or nothing. What I would encourage
women to do is to do something. And I'm not saying
(43:10):
that in a toxic positivity where they do something
like, today's your day. I'm. I'm literally saying
something. Start with something. Try something
that, you have always wanted to start there. Start
with something fun. What if you allowed yourself
to be messy at learning a new skill? What if you
joined an adult tap dancing class? What if you
learned how to quilt? What if you joined twice?
(43:33):
What is it? Toastmasters?
>> Wendy Valentine (43:35):
Oh, yeah, I did that.
>> Monica Packer (43:36):
Yes.
>> Wendy Valentine (43:37):
That was part of my, that was part of my doing,
was like, I'm gonna do this yes.
>> Monica Packer (43:41):
What if you went to a new workout class? Like,
what if you actually picked up the hobby that.
What if you started with something fun and you did
it in a different way? Were you allowed to not do
it perfectly where it was still about one step
after the next about doing something? And even
with that, to start small, because that's what I
actually did in that moment. If we're returning
back to that original story, is it began with me
(44:03):
making a list of 30 things I wanted to do before I
turned 30. And it's now known to my community as
the do something list. I make one every year. I've
never completed a list. And now the 11 years I've
made one every year, never completed it. It's not
about that. It's about exploration. It's about
learning who I am. It's about making messy
(44:24):
progress towards the things that matter to me.
It's about living my life and not being on the
sidelines of my life. And it changed my life. That
that was the first thing. And then it trickled
down to so many other things and that's what
really changed so much for me. So start with doing
something. Just do something.
>> Wendy Valentine (44:43):
I was just about to ask you, is all of this, is it
an inside job or some of it's an outside job?
Obviously I think it's always both. Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (44:52):
Yeah. The nurture nature question, mindset is so
important, but this is why I'm a habits and
identity coach. Like, those that is deep and
practical, they work hand in hand.
>> Wendy Valentine (45:04):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (45:05):
And even like when I'm having someone intensely
work on a behavior and how like we're changing
what's on the outside, but every time they do
something the way they want to, where it's showing
a little bit of progress, they have to constantly
affirm it deeply. Because it works hand in hand
together. So. Yeah, it's both. It's both.
>> Wendy Valentine (45:24):
Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah. Taking action
and then no matter what the result is, and just
congratulating yourself that you took the action
to be even trying.
>> Monica Packer (45:34):
Even trying is going to be a huge thing for a lot
of women. And, and what honestly gave me the right
to do that is, I almost named my online work at
the time Mediocre Monica. Because I just started
with like, I'm going to share me about me trying
to do things messy and that I'm allowed to be
mediocre. And, giving myself permission to do that
(45:57):
again is what led to dramatic exponential change
and progress in all areas of my life. Mm.
>> Wendy Valentine (46:04):
M. So it's been what, 10 years since. Almost 10
years.
>> Monica Packer (46:09):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (46:09):
Yep. Since that moment.
>> Monica Packer (46:11):
Yeah. Which is so weird. It's weird, it's weird to
think on.
But, I'll just end with this quick little story.
Nineteen years ago, I went on a study abroad when
I was at the height of my overachieving
perfectionism. It was truly a once in a lifetime
experience. Like I was a fifth of seven kids. No
one in my family had been outside of the states
(46:32):
ever. My dad was a huge history buff. He knew
everything about World War I, which I was studying
there. World War II, never been. And I got to go
see everything because we went to France too. And
my whole trip was, was tainted with the price I
was paying at that time, which was. It became very
obvious I had an eating disorder. All I could
(46:56):
think about was food and exercise. That entire
trip I wasn't there. I wasn't present to it. two
weeks ago I just returned from a trip and I went
to London and it was 19 years later again, like I
hadn't been back. And I walked around, I spent a
whole day, I walked 12 miles my last day just
around London. And I got to visit all these places
(47:16):
I visited on my study abroad, like in one single
day. And I am not an emotional person. I actually
am working on it. I'm trying to feel things more.
I basically wept the whole day in ways that
shocked me. Like I was so shocked. And why is.
Because I felt like I was embodying the change
(47:39):
that I started 19 years prior. First when I came
home from that trip and went and got help from a
counselor. And even more embodying the last 10
years where I changed in a new way. And the whole
day I just felt so grateful to past me for
refusing to continue on the path I was in on and
(48:01):
thinking that that was the only way of daring to
try and to do it messy. Because I will tell you,
for years I thought I wasn't changing. In my
initial recovery, I thought I wasn't changing
actually. Things got worse for a long time. But
now, 19 years later, I'm a different person. And
now 10 years later, after trying in a new way, I'm
a. I wouldn't even say a new person. I would say
(48:21):
I'm, me. That's what I felt. That whole day I felt
like I'm me, I'm Monica and I'm actually here. I'm
living this life. I'm present to this moment and
I'm experiencing it in ways I couldn't have 10
years ago, and I couldn't have 19 years ago. So if
that can be a motivator for the woman, it's never
too late. But also, don't. Wait, don't.
>> Wendy Valentine (48:44):
You're making me cry.
>> Monica Packer (48:47):
Well, that's.
>> Wendy Valentine (48:47):
I'm so, so freaking proud of you. Well, you
literally were looking at, ah, London with new
glasses on, with a new outfit. I was.
>> Monica Packer (48:57):
I was metaphor. And it felt. It felt like a
miracle. Like, it felt like I was living out a
miracle that was several years in the making and
that only was possible because I dared to do it
differently.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:10):
Yes.
Ah, Love it. That was a good. See, this is why I
interviewed you now, because you wouldn't have had
that so story.
>> Monica Packer (49:18):
I wouldn't have had that story.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:20):
Girl.
>> Monica Packer (49:20):
I didn't even know. I didn't even know. And to be
honest, that trip is now I'm like, I think I'm due
for another midlife crisis because that trip has
made me think about other big things. I'm like,
maybe I should make other new decisions and do a
different, you know, so it's okay.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:32):
It's a midlife catalyst.
>> Monica Packer (49:35):
That's right. I love how you. You were that. It is
a catalyst. It's another catalyst moment.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:41):
it's. It's a beautiful thing. I mean, talk about
progress.
>> Monica Packer (49:45):
That's right.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:46):
All right, so tell us where we can find you all
the good things. And you've got a book coming out.
Well, it's. It's in the works.
>> Monica Packer (49:53):
Yeah, it's in the work.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:54):
It's in the messy works.
>> Monica Packer (49:55):
It is. I'm. I'm about 85% done writing it, so you
know that still half of the work.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:02):
Yeah.
>> Monica Packer (50:03):
So it's supposed to be released in the fall of
2026. it's called Happy Habits, so we'll see. but
if they want to stay tuned for that, I think the
biggest thing to do is actually go to my podcast
that's called About Progress. and they can find me
wherever they search for that. And then I also do
have a free training on the do something list if
they want to do that. It's never a bad time. I
make mine in January of every year, but a lot of
(50:26):
people make it like seasonally or mid year, it
doesn't matter. So you can go to about
progress.com, dSL and that stands for do something
list. And there's a free training.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:35):
I, love it. You're. You're awesome. You'll have to
come back when the. When the book comes out.
>> Monica Packer (50:39):
Oh, I'd love to, because we didn't even get to
talk about habits. that would have been another.
Oh, yeah, three hours. But, yeah, it would have
been a long time, so. So we'll come. I'd love to
come back.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:50):
This is. This is going to be in one of my top
five. I really. Maybe. Because I can connect with
it so much. I don't know. I mean, but this is. And
I just think so many women need it. I mean, it's
one of the things I just really, really want with
women to wake up to. To go do the things as messy.
>> Monica Packer (51:08):
I have your book right here.
>> Wendy Valentine (51:10):
Oh, I know. Me too. Wake up. Thank you, Monica.
You're the best.
>> Monica Packer (51:16):
Thanks for having me. And thank you for. For being
here and giving me, like, the only way I could
show up and tell these stories is because you
truly did give me that opportunity. And you're an
amazing host. So thank you.
>> Wendy Valentine (51:28):
Thank you, best guest. I, like, best guest. Thank
you, Monica.
Did this podcast inspire you? Challenge you?
Trigger you to make a change or.
Spit out your coffee laughing?
Good. Then there are three ways you can thank me.
Number one, you can leave a written review of this
podcast on Apple iTunes. Number two, you can take
(51:51):
a screenshot of the episode and share it on the
social media and. And tag me Wendy Valentine.
Number three, share it with another midlifer that
needs a makeover. You know who I'm talking about.
Thank you so much for listening to the show. Get
out there and be bold. Be free. Be you.
(52:21):
Sam.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com