November 11, 2025 • 51 mins
In this candid conversation, family lawyer and author Gabriella Pomare shares how to move from conflict to collaboration after divorce. We dig into co-parenting with grace (even with a difficult or narcissistic ex), her four Pillars of Communication—listen, pause, reflect, respond—plus boundaries, parallel parenting, and putting kids at the center (not in the middle). If you’re navigating separation, blended family life, or simply want healthier communication, this episode brings practical tools and real hope.
What You’ll Learn
- How to co-parent peacefully using Gabriella’s Pillars of Communication (listen, pause, reflect, respond)
- Smart boundaries for high-conflict or narcissistic exes (and when to parallel parent)
- Ways to keep kids at the center, build new traditions, and reduce guilt and stress
- How age matters: routines for young kids vs. guardrails for teens
- Mindset shifts for healing: choosing dignity, de-escalation, and long-term harmony over “winning”
🎧 Tune in now at https://TheMidlifeMakeoverShow.com or wherever you listen to podcasts!
👉 Connect with Gabriella!
https://thecollaborativeco-parent.com.au
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Gabriella Pomare (00:00):
Your child's experience of your divorce shapes
them into the future massively. it shapes their
future trajectory. So, for example, what I've seen
in my work and what social science tells us is
that as your child grows older and they form their
own relationships, boyfriends, girlfriends, get
married, have kids. A lot of that comes back to my
parents, divorce and how that shaped me. And I
(00:21):
understand they will still see arguments. I'm sure
my son still hears the odd angry phone call. It
happens. No one's perfect. But if in its entirety,
you can have a healthier co parenting dynamic
that's going to help your kid into their future.
So keep that at the forefront of your mind. Don't
ruin their future for your own. You know, I won
that fight. I won that battle. You know. Yes, I. I
(00:43):
caught him or I caught her. Think about your kid.
>> Wendy Valentine (00:46):
Hey there, beautiful. I'm Wendy Valentine, your
host of the Midlife Makeover show where it's never
too late to wake up to your your best life.
Whether you're navigating a career change, empty
nesting, menopause or wondering what's next,
you're in the right place. Every week I'll bring
you real talk, laughs and inspiring conversations
(01:07):
with experts and extraordinary women who've
transformed their lives from self care and
relationships to starting over and finding
freedom. This is your time to reinvent, rediscover
and reignite the woman you were always meant to
be. So hit that subscribe button and let's rewrite
the rules of midlife. Your new adventure starts
(01:28):
now. As you know, midlife is a bustling time. We
manage households, nurture relationships, advance
careers and raise children. These
responsibilities, while fulfilling, can sometimes
(01:51):
drain your energy and diminish your personal
strengths. To help you reawaken those dormant
powers and embrace the superhero that you truly
are, I created the Superhero
quiz@mysuperheroquiz.com this fast, free and fun
quiz will help you discover which superhero
mirrors your strengths and personality. Plus,
(02:13):
you'll receive a detailed guide tailored to your
superhero profile, helping you to harness your
strengths and and soar to new heights. Just head
over to my superhero quiz.com and embrace the
superhero within you.
Welcome back to the Midlife Makeover Show. I'm
your host, Wendy Valentine. Today's guest is
(02:34):
someone who's rewriting the story of separation
and showing families everywhere that it's possible
to part ways with peace, dignity and compassion.
Gabriella Paul Pomari is a family lawyer, award
winning author and co parenting advocate who's
helped countless parents transform conflict into
(02:54):
Collaboration. As a partner at the Norton Law
Group in Sydney and the author of the
collaborative, co parent, Gabriella brings, both
legal expertise and lived experience to the
emotional, often messy world of family
restructuring. In today's conversation, we'll talk
about how to co parent with Grace in the it's
possible even when your ex makes it a little
(03:17):
challenging. We'll explore Gabriella's four modes
of communication, how to set boundaries with a
difficult or narcissistic ex, and how to create
new family traditions that put your kids happiness
first. Whether you're navigating divorce, blended
family life, or simply want to communicate better
with loved ones, this episode will leave you with
(03:40):
practical tools and, and hope for healing. Please
welcome Gabriella to the show.
>> Gabriella Pomare (03:45):
What an introduction. Thank you. Thanks for having
this chat with me.
>> Wendy Valentine (03:50):
Yes, it is great to have you. And you're joining
us from Australia, hence the awesome, ah, adorable
accent. I have not. I can do an English accent,
but I've never been able to perfect the
Australian. So we'll have to hang out. Maybe by
the end of today's episode I'll like, finally get
it out.
>> Gabriella Pomare (04:08):
You'll have picked it up. That's it exactly. Thank
you.
>> Wendy Valentine (04:10):
And actually like, you're, I can actually
understand you. Like there's some Australians. I'm
like, are they saying I do not understand that?
>> Gabriella Pomare (04:17):
Oh, my God. Yeah, it's, it's not a very fancy
language, but once you start to understand us, you
know, I don't think I love it.
>> Wendy Valentine (04:26):
So, yeah, thanks for joining us and okay, there's
one thing I've noticed with all the guests I've
had on my show, 300 plus at this point, that they
teach what they have lived and what they have
learned and basically whatever solution they are
providing for the world, they have been through
(04:47):
the problem themselves. So tell us what you've
lived through in regards to separation and divorce
and most importantly, what you've learned.
>> Gabriella Pomare (05:00):
Yeah, well, I guess I'm a family lawyer, as you
said. So from a young age, I was exposed to
divorce and separation. My dad is also a family
lawyer. So I knew all about this concept from
really young. and then I went through it myself. I
was 30 at the time. I'd been with my then husband
since high school. So I think the reality was we
were both very young. We hadn't matured, we hadn't
(05:22):
really gone out into the working world. And then
you do and you change as a person, right? You
start to find yourself and you grow apart. So
there wasn't necessarily this high conflict
Dynamic or situation at that time. Anyway, certain
things happen. Obviously. I had a one year old,
just about a one year old at the time. And I think
it was when I went through that and I woke up and
I was like, this is my life now. what do I
(05:44):
actually do? I know what the law says. I know how
to, you know, draft orders, I know how to divide
up our property, how to work out custody and those
sorts of things. But practically, what do I
actually do? How do I do this? How do I get on
with him? We're going to be, you know, partners
together now for another 18 years or more. Because
I think the reality is, and, you know, it doesn't
end when your child turns 18. They're going to,
(06:04):
you know, get married themselves or have
relationships and christenings and graduations. So
you kind of stuck working out how to get on. So
that's what really gave me this idea and said,
people need a practical guide. They need to work
out how to actually do this away from lawyers, and
have some sort of pathway forward.
>> Wendy Valentine (06:23):
Yeah, you're so right. At what point, did you
realize in the marriage you're like, I got. It's
time for me to move on. Like, what was, what were
some of those signs for you, if you don't mind
sharing, that you were like, okay, it's time to
go.
>> Gabriella Pomare (06:40):
I think communication stops. I think the reality
is you stop talking, you stop asking. You know,
how was your day? Or maybe I, know it sounds
terrible, caring, and that sounds dreadful. But
you get to a point where you don't ask, what did
you get up to today? Or how was work? Or, hey,
these are the things that happened in my day. And
I think when it gets to that point, there's a
really unhealthy dynamic. there's that. There's.
(07:02):
When you perhaps start going out separately more
often than not. So I found myself wanting to go
out with friends, girlfriends, be out and about.
And I thought, oh, that's odd. I should be wanting
to go out with my loved one, perhaps not my
friends. There's a lot going on there. and then I
was in this unfortunate dynamic, I suppose. So at
that exact same time, my mom, who at that point
(07:22):
was still quite young and very close with me, had
a big stroke. So she ended up in hospital for an
entire year. So I had that going on. I was like,
I'm not happy. I need to make a change. and as bad
as all that was, I'm so happy that I did.
>> Wendy Valentine (07:39):
How much did it help you, since you knew a lot
professionally how to handle it personally?
>> Gabriella Pomare (07:47):
Good question. I think I was smart, enough perhaps
to say, don't let yourself, you know, get into
this dynamic of the anger, the conflict, because
you know where that'll end up. And there were lots
of times I was, you know, drafting that really
angry text, probably saying stuff I shouldn't
have, and then I regret now. And then my head, I'm
(08:07):
like, no gab. Think about what you've seen in
court that's going to end up in a document
somewhere. Stop yourself. So that sort of lived
experience, that professional experience,
certainly has helped me. But, hey, I'm not
perfect. I can tell you that. First year was
rough. I did send those bad text messages. I got
into dumb arguments, you know, you're not picking
him up now. I don't agree to this. No, I'm not
(08:27):
swapping. Don't let this girlfriend meet him,
whatever it might be. But you learn from
experience, and after several years, you sort of,
I think, calm it down. if you let yourself grow
and move on.
>> Wendy Valentine (08:39):
Yeah. I mean, do you. Do you believe there's such
a thing as a good divorce? Like you can actually
have a good, decent, peaceful divorce?
>> Gabriella Pomare (08:49):
I think you can. And I think if you want to put
your kids first, you will. yeah, but it's not
easy. And I don't think it's a decision you make
necessarily from day one, because if you are
separating or divorcing, there's a reason for it.
It might just be that you got to a certain age and
you grew apart, and that's fair. And you both sort
of say, we're moving on. We want to live separate
lives, but we will be friends. And I've seen
(09:09):
clients and friends of mine who count so well,
they'll still have Christmases together,
birthdays, some even travel. I couldn't do that.
I'm happy to get on. I'm happy to call up, let you
know how the week's going, let you know how our
son's going, that sort of thing. I don't want to
travel with you and your new girlfriend.
>> Wendy Valentine (09:25):
I know that's a bit much. It's a little too much.
>> Gabriella Pomare (09:29):
That's a little close.
>> Wendy Valentine (09:30):
I think it's important to. To know that.
>> Gabriella Pomare (09:33):
Right.
>> Wendy Valentine (09:34):
What.
What are your own boundaries? Not just, yeah,
going through the divorce, but then even post
divorce. Like, what. What are your personal
boundaries? Because what your friend Judy might be
doing her post divorce, maybe M. Like, yeah, like
you said, like, I don't want to be traveling with
you people. I don't want to be hanging out with
(09:55):
you people. Like, I want to do just the minimum of
whatever I'm supposed to do. Or like, I don't want
to be buddies here. So, yeah, let's talk about
that.
>> Gabriella Pomare (10:06):
It's an internal conflict. I have a lot because
I've got clients who realistically, if they're
coming to see me as a lawyer, they're high
conflict. There's issues there that you need a
lawyer. And then I know what I'm doing in my life.
And it's hard for me sometimes to give advice
because I will often say, what are you arguing
over? Are we seriously arguing over an hour on
your kid's birthday? Get over it. Are we seriously
arguing about Christmas? There are bigger things,
(10:27):
but I can't give that advice. But I'll often say,
you know, this is how I do things that may not
work for you. so there's that. But you're right, I
think it is about boundaries and I think it's
about communicating those boundaries. So for an
example, as I think I told you, I've got a 12,
almost 12 month next week. And that sort of
changed everything. The entire dynamic of this
(10:48):
whole whatever we have. Beautiful new, blended,
wacky modern family. Right. and it was sort of,
how much information does my ex know about the
baby? Because obviously my son wants to share.
Yeah, this is my sister. This is what she's doing.
Look at a photo of her. I'll put her on FaceTime.
And for him that'd be so difficult. For me, it's
just odd. So I'm like, what's the crossover? What
(11:09):
do we do? What boundary is there? And it's hard.
You've got to navigate it.
>> Wendy Valentine (11:13):
Yeah, yeah, Communication, Absolutely. I mean, I
think I've learned, I don't know about you. It's
like, well, let's say I'm 52 now. I'm turning 53
in a couple weeks. On, on Thanksgiving, everyone.
I'm a turkey, baby. but one thing I've learned,
communication is just key with everything.
>> Gabriella Pomare (11:34):
Whether that communication is key to. Do you stay
together, do you separate? And can you co parent
and can you get on or not?
>> Wendy Valentine (11:41):
Yeah, exactly. And I would even think too, I don't
know if you've seen this, where maybe, I mean,
there are relationships in marriage where there is
no conflict because you actually, you get along
too well. But it's just kind of there. It's
mediocre, it's boring. And that can turn from like
having zero Conflict in a relationship, which can
(12:01):
be very bland and boring for a lot of people,
believe it or not. And then to going into divorce
and having conflict and then not knowing if you
didn't, if you were that type of relationship,
where you did not communicate, you did not talk
about any things, you didn't even state what your
values and your needs were to then going through
(12:22):
divorce and being like, you know, I can imagine
that would be shocking to the individual. And then
collectively as, as a whole.
>> Gabriella Pomare (12:35):
Yeah. And I think you don't really look at or
understand your communication style often till,
afterwards. And I was asked that question
recently. Do you think knowing someone's
communication style and communicating things like,
you know, your values, what you believe in, what
you're from early on, does that then shape your
marriage or your relationship and whether you end
up separating or not? And it probably does. So I
think maybe if you identify your communication
(12:57):
style and how you're going to do that and operate
early on, you could avoid this whole idea of
separation. But if not, I think you need to adapt
your communication style post divorce to say, this
is how we're going to do it moving forward because
we have to stay connected now. If you have kids,
moving forward, it's the only way it's going to
work. Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (13:18):
And I would think the key too is just being
proactive. Right. It's better to be proactive than
reactive, preventative than, you know, than having
to repair. And sometimes it's usually like if you
have to be the one to take that first step, it's
just like in any argument you're like, dang it, do
I have to be the one that's like, okay, let me go
(13:39):
ahead and bring the peace and m. Sometimes. Yeah.
And sometimes it's hard because if the other
person in the relationship and throughout the
divorce is being a total ass, you kind of like,
why do I have to be the one to try to bring the
piece? But what, like, but what are you bringing
the piece for? It's for yourself, it's for the
(14:01):
children. Right.
>> Gabriella Pomare (14:02):
I think it's for both. Right. Because my view
anyway and something that I'm big on and my
message is you need to sort of heal yourself and
be at one with yourself to be a good parent or co
parent. Right. So I think it's when you say I'm
being the bigger person, I don't want to, I
shouldn't have to. I agree with you. And it
certainly isn't going to happen day one. It's a
(14:22):
journey. It's A massive journey. But when you're
there and you've sort of come to peace with
yourself saying, I don't care anymore, you know
what? If I'm the one who has to reach out, if I'm
the one who has to give in, if I'm the one who has
to say sorry, so be it. I feel better about
myself, and my kid is going to be so much better
for it.
>> Wendy Valentine (14:38):
Yeah.
What did you learn about yourself personally and.
And even what you wanted in that next
relationship, which is the relationship you have
now. How did that shift for you, your whole
mindset and your. And your belief? and your values
regarding marriage, being a parent?
>> Gabriella Pomare (14:57):
Yeah, the good question. I think for me, I needed
to go on that healing journey first. And to be
honest, I still don't know if it was long enough.
I mean, what is. How long is it? It's never
ending, probably. And I think I'm still changing
now, day to day. And I think writing this book has
changed me. A. Speaking about these things so
often, my mindset keeps shifting. But I think if,
(15:19):
for me, having gone through what I went through
was trust number one, you really need to learn to
be able to trust someone. And being able to do
that post, separating or divorcing someone is
hard. can I trust you? Am I still going to have
these ideas of what was. Is that going to
translate into my current relationship? and I
think I had to let go a bit. I'm probably a little
bit of a control freak, where I always want to be
(15:41):
in control. I want to know what's happening. I
want it my way. And, yeah, that's not how life
goes. Sadly. Sadly, we can't be in control of it
all. So I've had to let go a lot. and one thing
that I really value in this relationship is being
on the same page about life, about work, about
family. And we both have really demanding jobs.
We're sort of working around the clock, so we
(16:02):
still need that time to step back and I think
connect. And that's one of the hardest things in a
relationship, I think, finding that time to
connect.
>> Wendy Valentine (16:09):
Yeah.
And I think divorce can teach you a lot about
yourself, about life, about relationships. And, I
mean, I know for me, like, I went through. Well,
let's see, it's been almost. Almost eight years
since my divorce. Nine. Nine years since
separation. And I always said I was like, all
right, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get a divorce and I'm
(16:31):
gonna marry myself. You know, it's so. It's so
common though, that male or female were like, all
right, yeah, what's. Where's the next partner? You
know, you're like, ah, And I was like, this time,
Wendy, we're doing it differently. Yeah. And you
know, what is that the same? Was that Einstein
that said, you can't solve a problem with the same
level of mind that created it? Right. And I
(16:54):
remember thinking, like, I've got to change my
mindset. I've got to change my m, my heart, my. My
everything. And for me, right, Because I felt like
I was always, as I looked back at my life, it was
always about being there. Because I was a total
perfectionist, people pleaser, approval seeker.
(17:16):
You name it, I was doing it. And I was rocking all
of those roles and labels and I was like, for
once, one day, let's just drop this stuff, because
it was exhausting. And I realized how much that
affected not just my marriage, but all my
relationships.
>> Gabriella Pomare (17:36):
Yeah. Interesting.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:37):
Yeah. And I.
>> Gabriella Pomare (17:38):
And do you. Do you think it was that realization
that threw you into what you're doing now and the
book and the podcast and the conversations?
>> Wendy Valentine (17:46):
Totally. Which makes you, I feel like, trust. It
helps you to trust the process even more, knowing
that, okay, this divorce, this separation, this
breakup can teach me something about myself. It
can actually make me into a better man, woman, ah,
(18:07):
person, everything. Right. Like, it can actually
motivate m. You and it could be a catalyst to. To
create something.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's what happened for me.
>> Gabriella Pomare (18:21):
Yeah. No, I just think that that's where life sort
of, I was like, this is my moment. This is. I'm
out of the old into the new. But what do you want?
What do you really want out of life now? Because
this is your opportunity. And I think I start my
book like that. I sort of say, you have the power
now. You have the control. No one's telling you
what to do. This is your time to say, moving
forward. This is my life and this is what I'm
going to create. And it took me quite some time, I
(18:43):
guess, some years. And maybe in writing this book
or engaging now, you know, with others in this
platform, I say, wow, like, I've been able to
accomplish so much in the last few years because
I've had that time and that space to allow myself
to do what I want and to have these thoughts and
to process them and to explore them and keep
going. And that's a great thing. It's exciting,
it's empowering.
>> Wendy Valentine (19:03):
So cool.
Plus, I think too, you know, like, when you're, I
mean, obviously the midlife makeover show,
majority of the listeners are going to be at
midlife, 40s, 50s, beyond. Right? And you know,
what worked and what did not work in those first
few decades of life and now, but you're still
young enough to do something about it, do
(19:24):
something different. Right? And as I look back in
my 20s and many of us can relate to this, that we
were finding a partner that maybe was something
that society told us or parents or culture or
religion. And then when you wake up, you know, in,
(19:45):
you know, 40s or 50s, you're like, wait a second,
I don't, I don't like this type of relationship.
This is not what I want. This is what my parents
had or who my friends had, whatever. I don't like
those type of relationship. And then to your
point, you are the one that gets to decide. You
get to take your power back and go, I'm going to
create what I want. I'm going to go after the
(20:06):
relationship that I want, not what.
>> Gabriella Pomare (20:09):
And is it sad though that you have to go through
something so terrible or traumatic to realize
that? And that's the bit that I don't get. Why
can't we be realizing this and living our best
life and making our best decisions, married or
not, you know, in a relationship or not? And who
cares what age you are? But you're right, it's
this constant pressure of I need to get married, I
(20:30):
need to buy the house, I need to have a job, I
need to have the kids, I need to put them m
through school. Or do you, do you need to do those
things in that order? Or can you say, hold on for
the next few years, I'm doing me, I'm being my
best self, I'm getting my creative, you know, out,
out there. I just, there's so much more to do and
I think people need to see and I get that, you
know, I'm a different age bracket maybe, but I
(20:52):
want people to see this is the time to start doing
it. Because you don't necessarily want to wait 10,
20, 30 more years to wake up to that. Do it now.
don't go get divorced to do it.
>> Wendy Valentine (21:01):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
And it's not like you don't have to sacrifice
yourself, your happiness, your career, your. For a
relationship.
>> Gabriella Pomare (21:12):
exactly. Or even just as a mum sometimes I think I
often wake up and say, there's mum life. And you
know, I've got the dreaded school run every single
morning. And I'm like, yeah, it's great. But, you
know, like, this morning, I didn't do it. I rang
up my dad, so Granddad and I said, can you do the
school drop off today? I've got stuff I need to
do. And sometimes you need to be okay with that.
You need to say, I am a mum, and I'm doing my best
as a mum, but I'm still putting myself first
(21:33):
because I have things I want to do, too.
>> Wendy Valentine (21:35):
Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's one thing, going
back to my divorce, that I had realized. My. My
husband at the time, he had been through a lot,
and as a child and. And growing up, and I had been
through a lot. We both had suffered lots of trauma
and drama in our lives. And I thought I. I came to
(21:58):
him, I was like, you know what? Why don't we do
ourselves a favor and not cause any more bullshit
that we have to recover, from, like, why not? And,
I mean, it was kind of like my idea. I was like,
let's just. I came to the table. I was like, let's
do this. Let's see if we can actually go through
(22:19):
this as peacefully as possible. As possible.
Peacefully as possible. So that we don't have to
even have to, like, go to a therapist to recover
from what we're going to be going through in the
divorce. You know what I mean? It was like, why
exactly ourselves? Why do that?
>> Gabriella Pomare (22:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and that's my. That's my thought
always. I mean, I understand sometimes why there's
a need. you've got family violence, you've got
domestic violence. It's different. But if you're
two people who have either grown apart or you are
just so high conflict that it's become toxic in
that household, why increase that toxicity or that
conflict, using loyals and all, you still don't
(22:57):
need to continue to engage. And, you know, the
constant arguments, you know, I want this, I want
that. Why not just sit down together and say, we
managed to do the last 10, 20, 30 years together.
We've got a kid or beautiful kids, whatever it
might be. Can we keep mapping it out together?
I talk about a new version of family. Because you.
You're not really not a family anymore. You are
still a family. you're just some kind of new
(23:20):
family where you create your own new rules. So
make those rules. Ones say, right, this is how
we're doing things moving forward. One,
communication. Two, property and finances. Three,
kids, whatever it might be. But if you can work
out that map or that pathway that Framework
together. How much better is that for you
personally, that inner peace of yours? Because you
can say, oh, I'm not going to be crazy. You know,
(23:41):
every time I get a text from this person, it's not
going to blow up, you know, not going to rule my
day. every time I have to see them at a school
function or at a family gathering, it's not going
to ruin my week. If you can get into that mindset
early, earlier, that's fantastic. You're healing
yourself and you're allowing yourself to have such
a happier life. Why make yourself unhappy? Why
cause yourself grief for the sake of it? But more
(24:02):
importantly, how nice is that for your children to
see that?
>> Wendy Valentine (24:06):
Exactly. And plus, you're showing children that,
yes, you can actually, you know, get a divorce or
separate from a relationship or, you know, even if
it's like leaving a career or leaving a
friendship. Yes, it is possible to go through
something like that peacefully and.
>> Gabriella Pomare (24:26):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (24:27):
And responsibly. You know, it doesn't have to be
horrible. It does not have to be a horrible
experience.
>> Gabriella Pomare (24:34):
No, things don't always have to be. And what a lot
of parents forget is your child's experience of
your divorce shapes them into the future
massively. it shapes their future trajectory. So,
for example, what I've seen in my work and what
social science tells us is that as your child
grows older and they form their own relationships,
boyfriends, girlfriends, get married, have kids. A
(24:55):
lot of that comes back to my parents divorce and
how that shaped me. And I understand they will
still see arguments. I'm sure my son still hears
the odd angry phone call. It happens. No one's
perfect. But if in its entirety, you can have a
healthier co parenting dynamic that's going to
help your kid into their future. So keep that at
the forefront of your mind. Don't ruin their
(25:17):
future for your own. You know, I won that fight. I
won that battle.
>> Wendy Valentine (25:20):
Hi, and Wendy Ye Valentine. I want to share
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brother, and dealing with chronic illness. But I
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journey. Therapy. Speaking to a therapist was a
(25:42):
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(26:24):
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We all have a choice, right? And where we're
placing our time and our energy, our thoughts, our
(26:45):
emotions. And, you know, at the end of the day and
at the end of life, you're not gonna be like, oh,
man, I won that one. You know, I got that. Like,
it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter in the
grand scheme of things. Yes.
>> Gabriella Pomare (27:00):
No, it feels good for five minutes, and I'm
telling you, a week later, no one remembers it.
there was no value to any of it. But it takes time
to realize that. And sometimes it takes going to
therapy, processing, journaling again, finding
yourself before you can get to that point where
you do wake up and realize, who cares about all of
this? My life is what's important to me now. It
(27:20):
might be my new friendships, my new job, my new
relationship, whatever it might be. Once you have
that focus and you realize there is so much more
to life and to my happiness, I think that's when
you start to let go. And that doesn't mean you
have to like the person. You can still sort of,
you know, send that text and then go to your best
friend, your sister, whoever might be on the
phone, you know, terrible person they are. And
(27:41):
that's fine.
>> Wendy Valentine (27:42):
Yeah.
>> Gabriella Pomare (27:42):
But you're not creating conflict or involving a
kid in that conflict. And that's the point.
>> Wendy Valentine (27:48):
So how do you. How do you handle if you really
have some, you know, a difficult ex, a narcissist,
which is, you know, I've known plenty too many of
them even. No matter how peaceful you come to the
table, that they're so still just wanting to
fight.
>> Gabriella Pomare (28:07):
Yeah. I think the reality is, isn't it? They want
you to fight back. So by fighting back, they're
winning. You're giving them what they want. That
is what a narcissist or a high conflict person
wants. So boundaries is the big thing. And if
you're dealing with someone like that, I agree,
you're not going to be able to have that phone
call or go to that school function together, but
it Might be that, you know, you've got a certain
communication method in place. It might be a
(28:27):
parenting app or text or email only. They're your
boundaries, simple as that. keep it really clear
cut, record everything. And that is okay too. That
is the dynamic of that relationship. But the
biggest thing is don't give in, don't fight back.
Don't let them win and don't let them know that
they're affecting you or impacting you because you
will continue to be giving into them forever. And
(28:48):
in their mind, they're on top still. So let go. go
and live life. Enjoy life. And if you can't co
parent, parallel parent, work out a different way
of doing it.
>> Wendy Valentine (28:58):
Yeah. Because otherwise, yeah, you're feeding the
fire and the fire just gets bigger and bigger and
then you end up.
>> Gabriella Pomare (29:03):
They love that.
>> Wendy Valentine (29:05):
Oh, gosh. So challenging.
Okay, so let's talk about. Is it the four, methods
of communication? Yeah, yeah.
>> Gabriella Pomare (29:13):
I call them pillars of communication.
>> Wendy Valentine (29:15):
Pillars of communication. I like that.
>> Gabriella Pomare (29:17):
It's a term. I think the idea of it is supposed to
fix the nature of high conflict communication or
broken down communication. And the reality is you
can start this a month after co parenting or five
years later. so the idea is, it's listen, pause,
reflect and respond. So the idea is listen. So
don't just hear what they're saying, but truly
listen to what they're trying to tell you. Even if
(29:39):
you don't agree, pause and go away. There is no
need that because you've got a text message that
might be something like, you know, it's because of
you, so and so was late for school today, or I'm
taking a daughter to Europe at Christmas. You
don't get to say whatever it is, go away, think
about it, reflect. Because there is no need to
send. Shoot from the hip and cause that conflict
(30:00):
by immediately responding. Think about it, go
away. Sometimes you might respond in 10 minutes,
sometimes half an hour, sometimes a day. Depends
on the nature of the question, the communication.
And then you go back and respond. And the whole
idea of that is to slow things down, you know,
cool the heat when there's arguments and really
think about what you're saying. I think it helps
(30:20):
with any big decisions, particularly parenting
wise. and it just helps that whole co parenting
dynamic. And again, it takes time to sort of put
that in place. Particularly if you're dealing with
someone who does shoot from the hip and who's
constantly texting you and they're angry and
they're demanding a response straight Away. But
there's that boundary and the boundary might be
after 8:00'. Clock. I don't respond, I'll talk to
(30:40):
you tomorrow. Or just because you've texted me
doesn't mean I have time to respond right now.
Unless it's an emergency. I'll get back to you
tomorrow. So things like that, that's essentially
how it works.
>> Wendy Valentine (30:50):
I would think too, that, you know, it probably
takes time after the divorce to kind of get into
the groove of the new dynamic.
Right.
Everything's changed. Even living situation, like
the schedules, all of that has changed. And to
maybe like give yourself, your child, children and
(31:11):
your ex a little bit of grace. Like, okay, like
it's gonna take us some time to kind of get into
this new groove.
>> Gabriella Pomare (31:18):
Exactly. And that's why I say it's a journey.
Because I think the reality is you're probably
still grieving the family you had and you thought
you were going to have. You know, you imagine a
life with this person and with this family. You
imagine going on holidays together, creating,
memories, traditions, you know, over the holidays
and birthdays, and all of a sudden that's not
there anymore. And it might be because you wanted
it, and it might be because you didn't want it.
And if you didn't want it, it's going to take a
(31:39):
lot longer to process and to be able to move
forward and communicate. So the biggest thing is
stop thinking about that person as an example or
as a romantic partner. Again, that takes time
because this is the person you shared a bed with.
This is the person you're living a life with. You
imagine a future with. And it will take time to
sort of switch that wiring in your brain from this
(32:00):
is my person to it's not anymore, it's now kind of
partner, some kind of business partner, whatever
you want to call it, it's a partnership now where
we need to manage our child and our child's
happiness and wellbeing. And once that rewiring
happens to, I think that's when you can start
this, you know, communication method or the way of
doing things differently, over time.
>> Wendy Valentine (32:21):
Yeah, exactly. And it's, it's possible to create
that harmony.
>> Gabriella Pomare (32:25):
I think it is. If you want to again, the decision
is with you, you can stay stuck in that place of
it's my ex. I'm upset at them. You know, might be
you were cheated on. It might have been a fair. I
get it. It is horrible. And it takes time and
there's a lot to it, but you have the power to
decide, do I say stuck in that moment or do I
allow myself to move forward for healing and for
my child?
>> Wendy Valentine (32:46):
I was thinking about this this morning, before we
met here today, that I was thinking like, I've
know so many people that have stayed together for
the sake of the children. They're miserable,
they're unhappy, they stay in the marriage for the
kids. Even, even when the kids are gone, even when
they're an empty nest and there's grandkids and
(33:09):
they're like, together. Yeah. But then I think
about. I'm like, even with what we've talked about
today, knowing that it's possible to have, ah, you
know, a peaceful, fulfilling life after divorce,
then it's like, okay, you can, you can have
(33:29):
divorce even for the sake of the children, even
for the sake of yourself and your.
>> Gabriella Pomare (33:34):
Own house, often better. Yeah. I think the problem
with that is the stigma. I think it's still
society and it's that stigma of the divorce.
You've come from a broken home, you've given your
child a broken family. And I hate that idea.
There's no such thing as a broken family. I get so
sick and tired of hearing about it. There are so
many people that stay together because they say,
(33:55):
I'm doing it for my child. Your child knows your
child is living in a home, but there's probably
conflict where you might be living in separate
bedrooms where you probably don't communicate very
well. They don't see that love and affection
between their parents and that's so much worse for
their own development, their own mental health.
And as we spoke about before, they grow up
thinking that's normal. So then when they get
(34:16):
married and they enter into relationships, we
don't need to be affectionate. My parents didn't
hold hands, my dad didn't always have dinner with
mom, so that's not ideal either. And it's probably
worse for your child. But if you can divorce
peacefully and live amongst two homes peacefully
and show your child. Yeah, you know what? It
didn't work out. Mum and dad don't live together
anymore, but we still love you and we still
(34:38):
respect each other enough to be able to get on for
you and make decisions about you, that is
fantastic. Because that's a healthy dynamic you're
modeling for your child, for their future.
>> Wendy Valentine (34:47):
Exactly, yeah. That you respect and love yourself
enough to move on, to live, to live your. To live
your life.
>> Gabriella Pomare (34:56):
Yeah. I think it's nice for your child to see mum
happy or dad happy. Mum's living life. She's
killing it she's working or dad's out there, he's
happy, he's respectful of mum. That's the thing
children want to see.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:07):
I actually, my friend, my best friend Amy just
came to visit and I've always thought about her
because she, her parents divorced when she was,
when she was young. And I remember her saying that
she, her parents had a great divorce that they
like, she's like, I don't even notice. I didn't.
(35:27):
Like, that's what you want. You want the child to
barely notice anything. Like, it went from, okay,
they're not, it's not working out and here we go
and life goes on and we're still happy.
>> Gabriella Pomare (35:37):
She's a filter friend.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:39):
Yeah, I mean she, and she truly grew up.
>> Gabriella Pomare (35:43):
Grew up.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:43):
I mean, she's a grown woman now. She just turned
50 to be, to be a, happy, healthy, harmonious
woman. So.
>> Gabriella Pomare (35:51):
And that is, you know, hats off to appearance
because it's because of the way they handle that,
that is her experience of it. Because you see too
many kids say, you know, my parents, divorce
ruined me. I want more of these kids. My parents,
you know, they got divorced and they put me first
and I had this fantastic life. And that's what I
want from my son. He's only young and we may not
get it right all the time. He asked the questions
(36:14):
now all the time because he was one at the time.
And in my head I was like, he's never going to
remember. He's going to have no idea what it means
to be divorced. He just will always know. I live
in two homes, but having gone to school now, I get
the constant questions, why is, you know, Jack's
family, his mum and dad live together. Why do I
have to swap homes? And I don't even know how to
answer that. And that's what I do for a living.
(36:34):
It's my job. And I sort of sit there at night and
I say, okay, how am I going to answer this one?
but it's true. It's the way I answer those
questions and deal with it, that will help him
process and then move forward and make him feel
normal, to use an expression. and the crazy thing
is he's the only person and he's, he's in pre
kindergarten, 60 kids, only divorced family, which
(36:56):
is bizarre, for 20, 25.
>> Wendy Valentine (36:59):
Yeah, exactly. It's funny, I can remember, like
maybe over a decade ago. I can remember my
youngest saying, it's like, you know, the Reimers,
like, they, they all live in the same house,
they're all from the same mom and dad. And I was
like, that's weird. Why aren't they doing it our
(37:21):
way?
>> Gabriella Pomare (37:22):
Yep. Yep. I think that's how it's going to be in
the future, sadly. Yeah. I mean, isn't it nice if
that is the way and everyone's happy and getting
own?
>> Wendy Valentine (37:29):
Yeah, exactly.
>> Gabriella Pomare (37:32):
Do you.
>> Wendy Valentine (37:32):
Do you find that there's a difference between, you
know, if, if you're getting divorced when the
children are young versus when they're teenagers
or even already out of the nest and they're.
They've moved on and they've got their careers and
families, Is there a difference between the
impact?
>> Gabriella Pomare (37:52):
100%. Because I guess for a young child, it's how
you tell them, it's how you shield them. And for
them, they just really need a lot of stability and
consist, need that routine pattern. Things can't
change too much as you start getting to teenagers
and older children, they ask a lot more questions
and they want to know why. Why is this happening?
What have I done? Can I change things? What's mom
(38:14):
or dad done to hurt one another? And you need to
be extra careful how you answer that. I deal with
a lot of clients who think I'm going to be really
truthful because my kid's 14, 15, and I don't
think that is the way to do it. Your kid doesn't
need to know if one of you had an affair, if you
grew apart, if you lacked into all those details.
They don't need to know that. They need to know
it's not working. Mom and dad love you. You can
(38:36):
give them a bit more of an adult reasoning, but
they still don't need to know the ins and outs
because, believe it or not, that guilt will sit
inside their heads and they will think about it
and they will mull over it.
I think that's the difficulty with teenagers. And
also then they start playing parents off one
another. They're smart. So as soon as they're
living in two homes, it's, oh, Mum's not letting
me go out, or I've got a curfew, you know, at
Dad's house, I'm going to live at Mums. And
(38:57):
there's this back and forth. I'm seeing that now
in my work so much. So there are so many people I
have divorced or done their divorce four or five
years ago and they come back to me now with
teenage kids. So back then the kids were 8, 9.
Simple enough, right now they're 14, 15, and it's
hell at home. It's, you know, they're breaking out
of home, they're breaking curfew, they're
(39:18):
drinking, they're engaged in tick tock, all this
stuff. Right. Parents can't control them. And as
soon as one parent puts the. They're down. It's
playing off one another. I'll live with you. I'll
live with you. Mom will let me change schools. And
that's so hard for parents. Look, it's something
we all have to navigate, but I certainly think
it's a whole different dynamic when you got
teenagers and you're going through it.
>> Wendy Valentine (39:37):
So, yeah, hanging on for the sake of the children
is not such a good method there because, yeah, if,
you know, if, you know, like, all right, I need to
get a divorce. This is not working out for me. And
you know that when the children are young.
>> Gabriella Pomare (39:51):
Yeah, do it young. Get them stable, get them into
a good routine. Show them that it's working. So
that when they are teenagers, they're in this
consistent pattern and mom and dad are making it
work. You know, as teenagers, if they see you
starting to process your divorce and you're
healing in front of them, it's harder, you know.
And don't be their best friend. A lot of my
clients think I'm going to become best friends
(40:12):
with my teenager, my child, and all of a sudden
I'm there gossiping, you know, with my daughter
who's 15, saying, dad did this. Your dad's not m
paying child support. He texts me this. What do
you think about his girlfriend? That's not healthy
either. It's sort of a toxic relationship. It's
this dependent relationship we see where then the
teenager becomes parentified. And that causes so
many problems too.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:33):
I've seen that, actually. I even have some friends
that have done that too, where. Yeah, they have
tears.
>> Gabriella Pomare (40:39):
It's easy to fall into it.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:40):
Yes. Yeah. And then you're like, especially if
it's all girls. I mean, no, that's hard.
>> Gabriella Pomare (40:46):
Yeah. It's natural to want to talk about that.
It's natural to say, oh, you know, I'm just, this
has just happened. But just don't, don't ring up a
friend if you can. If you don't have a friend.
Journal. I would say type an email, write this
email, type a text, but don't send it. Get
everything out. Get all that, you know, that
emotion out, that anger, and then save it, delete
(41:08):
it, whatever you need to do. Process it, move
forward.
>> Wendy Valentine (41:11):
Yeah, you don't want to Involve the children in
the drama. You don't want to create. Create
anything for them.
>> Gabriella Pomare (41:18):
It becomes a competition. You think if I can tell
them all the bad things their other parents done,
they'll want to live with me more or, you know, or
side with me more?
>> Wendy Valentine (41:26):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Gabriella Pomare (41:27):
And that can feel nice initially because you need
that comfort. You know, you've lost your life
partner, so you think, I need that additional
comfort from children. But long term, it's not
healthy. It's not healthy for them then or later
on. And that can be hard to process or understand,
but they're not the right person to be your
emotional outlet.
>> Wendy Valentine (41:46):
I, like what you said on your website about
putting the children at the center instead of in
the middle.
>> Gabriella Pomare (41:53):
M. Absolutely. Because in the middle it's. It's
you and your co parent using them as a messenger
or as that, you know, break of that tug of war.
Whereas when at the center of every decision,
it's, hang on before I send that message, before I
make that decision, what's best for my child.
>> Wendy Valentine (42:09):
Yeah, you're exactly right.
>> Gabriella Pomare (42:10):
Because I would think that's the core of it.
>> Wendy Valentine (42:12):
Yeah. The children, the number one thing, they
just want to feel safe. They want to feel safe.
They want to feel that they're loved. No matter if
dad is living a mile away or 100 miles away. They
just want to feel safe and loved and connected and
comforted. Like, yeah, 100.
>> Gabriella Pomare (42:31):
And they don't want to feel guilty. They want to
feel it's okay to talk about having a good time at
Mum. Mum's or at Dad's when they're in the other
home, they want to feel safe enough to know it's
okay. If I want to talk to Mum about Dad today,
you know, can I call dad because something
exciting happened at school or can I mention what
I did with dad on the weekend? You need to allow
your child to feel normal enough and safe enough
(42:52):
and happy enough to talk to you about those
things. And you probably don't want to hear it. I
don't necessarily on a Sunday night, want to hear
about all the great things, you know, my son did
with his dad. It kind of makes you sad sometimes
thinking about what you missed out. But you've got
to let him think it's okay to talk about it and
feel happy enough to talk about it because that's
good for him and he knows then. Okay, Mum's okay
with it. I can, I can talk to her and that's nice.
>> Wendy Valentine (43:14):
Yeah. And. And to not feel for the children to not
feel that the separation, the divorce was her
fault.
>> Gabriella Pomare (43:21):
Absolutely.
Yeah. That is the biggest thing. Because usually
children will think that right or wrong, and there
may not be any reason for it, but they'll
question, could I have done something different to
stop this happening?
>> Wendy Valentine (43:32):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. You never, I mean, you think
like, as we know too, especially with neuroscience
and all the studies of. I mean, our brains are
absorbing everything around us, but especially as
children and that everything that you're saying
and doing and how you're being the child is, is
(43:55):
absorbing that. And they're carrying that into
their, into their entire life.
>> Gabriella Pomare (44:00):
They learn everything from you. And I think one of
the chapters that I think I know, one of the
chapters in my book is called. It's the messages
you send that matter the most. And it's got
nothing to do with literal messages, but it's
everything from, you know, an eye roll, a change
over. It's your body language, it's getting off a
phone call, it's how you handle any sort of
conversation or decision making process your kids
(44:21):
picking up on that. and they're, as you say,
they're mocking or mimicking, but they're learning
how you do things. And automatically that
translate to how they do things, their way of
thinking, their body language, how they relate to
people. So it's not just the things we say, it's
not just the text messages we send. It's
absolutely everything we do that they're learning
from. And I know that you won't remember that day
(44:44):
one after separating or, you know, even if you're
an intact family and you have an argument, you
won't always remember that. But that's when you've
got to be child focused and centered and say, I
need to be careful the way I do things because
they're learning from me.
>> Wendy Valentine (44:58):
Yeah, yeah, I know. I wish like nine.
>> Gabriella Pomare (45:02):
I wish it was that easy.
>> Wendy Valentine (45:03):
I know, right? Yeah.
>> Gabriella Pomare (45:06):
And, we can talk about this because we've thought
about it, we've read about it, and you know, I
think back and say, great, over the last few
years, here's where I've done it, right or wrong.
But you know, in the moment, you won't get it
right straight away. But as you process and as you
go back and you heal and you think about it and
you learn, you will start doing these things and
you will become more child focused and centered in
(45:26):
all of that.
>> Wendy Valentine (45:28):
And don't you think too, the healing can even
begin before the divorce.
>> Gabriella Pomare (45:35):
It's often the reason people sometimes get
divorced because they find Themselves going
through some sort of healing journey or pattern,
or they're starting to find themselves. And
perhaps that's when you wake up and say, say, wow,
I'm feeling different. I'm this different person
now. The way I engage with people, what I want
from the world, you know, let's talk, you know,
and it might be both of you, and that's when it
(45:55):
might be a joy decision to separate. So you may
have already healed or been on that pathway to
healing, and it makes that easier. So, so many
different stages of life. And as you say, every
couple will experience it differently. Every
individual, even within a relationship, will
experience a different stage.
>> Wendy Valentine (46:11):
Yeah, yeah. And again, just giving yourself some
grace, it takes time and be patient with yourself
and the process and the all of it. It'll
definitely teach you a lot about life and about
yourself, you know, in the best way.
>> Gabriella Pomare (46:27):
But, all the good parts of life do good and bad
parts, I think. And isn't that what life is? I
mean, I don't think anyone wants a life that is
just slow and steady and you go by. I think you
need the ups and downs to find yourself and to
find. Find. You know, I don't know if there's
ultimate happiness. We all have different
thoughts. But to find those happy periods and to
work out what you want, you need to go through
these ups and downs.
>> Wendy Valentine (46:49):
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, if it was up all the
time, my God, that even that would be exhausting,
you know? I mean. Yeah. I mean, what is it saying
Pain is inevitable. Inevitable, but suffering is
optional, right?
>> Gabriella Pomare (47:02):
And you can trust. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Don't get
me wrong. I kind of like sometimes there are those
times when you want to sit in your pajamas and
you're feeling sad about something. You know what?
I don't mind doing that for a day. Just letting
myself sit in my own grief or my own thoughts. But
then I kick myself up and I say, all right, we
can't do this again tomorrow. Let yourself do it
today. Find something to make yourself happy
(47:23):
tomorrow, or goal to accomplish tomorrow or this
week, and then start doing that. So I think again,
we need that. We need that balance of allowing
time for ourselves to, again, keep processing,
finding what's going on within us and then moving
forward and picking something to then do and work
towards.
>> Wendy Valentine (47:40):
I love this conversation. I do like. I mean, I
actually like. I love all the conversations I have
on this show. But, And it sounds weird to think
like, oh, I can't wait to talk about divorce, but.
But I love talking about it because there's a
positive side to it. You're living proof. I'm
living proof. There's lots of women and men where
(48:02):
it's living proof. And the children that, yes,
there is life beyond divorce.
>> Gabriella Pomare (48:08):
I, think that's the message. Yeah. And that is the
message that has to get out there. There's this
stigma of it's bad. And, you know, you've. You've
created this terrible life for your child.
Nothing. Not at all. If you allow yourself to find
the positive in it, and if you allow yourself, you
know, to create something special out of it, there
is such a life, and there can be such a life. And
(48:29):
you have so many opportunities available to you.
But again, it's up to you. You choose your life,
you choose the decisions. And again, forget the
stigma. Forget what society says. Ignore it. You
get to decide how you process that. And whether
you ignore it or whether you let those messages
sit in your mind and stop you from moving forward.
>> Wendy Valentine (48:48):
Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love it. So glad.
Not that I wanted you to go through divorce, but
I'm glad you learned.
>> Gabriella Pomare (48:57):
Through all of it.
>> Wendy Valentine (48:57):
You wrote this book. And I mean, everyone. Yes.
Like, actually, I wouldn't think, think, even post
divorce, even if you've been through it all. Like,
buy the book, read the book, because it'll only
help you with communicating in the future.
Right.
Like, for. I mean, look at me. I have three adult
children. Someday they'll be getting married and
having kids, and I will be going to the weddings
(49:20):
where my ex is there, probably with his, you know,
new wife and who. You know what I mean? Like,
it's, I'm all for personal development and
improving yourself and improving all relationships
and. And again, like, even if. Even if your
children are older, they're still seeing that
you're trying to make things even better every
single day.
>> Gabriella Pomare (49:42):
Absolutely. I think even if you learn one thing
from any resource that you read or listen to or
engage with, how great's that? there will always
be something you can apply to some facet of your
life.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:53):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
All right, so where can we find you? How do we get
your book?
>> Gabriella Pomare (49:58):
Okay, so book everywhere online. All good
retailers, my website, so www.collabor
collaborativeco-parent.com and follow me on
Instagram at Collaborative Co Parent.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:11):
Nice. I love the name Collaborative Co Parent.
>> Gabriella Pomare (50:15):
I woke up one day and I said, you need to be
collaborative and you need to be a co parent.
We'll make it not terribly unique, but it works.
And that's the message.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:25):
So yeah. Thank you so much.
>> Gabriella Pomare (50:28):
Thank you for having me.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:29):
Did this part podcast inspire you? Challenge you,
treat everyone? Have a great day or spit out your
coffee laughing. Good. Then there are three ways
you can thank me. Number one, you can leave a
written review of this podcast on Apple iTunes.
Number two, you can take a screenshot of the
episode and share it on the social media and tag
me Wendy Valentine. Number three, share it with
(50:52):
another midlifer that needs a makeover. You know
who I'm talking talking about. Thank you so much
for listening to the show. Get out there and be
bold. Be free. Be you.
Your child's experience of your divorce shapes
them into the future massively. it shapes their
future trajectory. So, for example, what I've seen
in my work and what social science tells us is
that as your child grows older and they form their
own relationships, boyfriends, girlfriends, get
married, have kids. A lot of that comes back to my
parents, divorce and how that shaped me. And I
(00:21):
understand they will still see arguments. I'm sure
my son still hears the odd angry phone call. It
happens. No one's perfect. But if in its entirety,
you can have a healthier co parenting dynamic
that's going to help your kid into their future.
So keep that at the forefront of your mind. Don't
ruin their future for your own. You know, I won
that fight. I won that battle. You know. Yes, I. I
(00:43):
caught him or I caught her. Think about your kid.
>> Wendy Valentine (00:46):
Hey there, beautiful. I'm Wendy Valentine, your
host of the Midlife Makeover show where it's never
too late to wake up to your your best life.
Whether you're navigating a career change, empty
nesting, menopause or wondering what's next,
you're in the right place. Every week I'll bring
you real talk, laughs and inspiring conversations
(01:07):
with experts and extraordinary women who've
transformed their lives from self care and
relationships to starting over and finding
freedom. This is your time to reinvent, rediscover
and reignite the woman you were always meant to
be. So hit that subscribe button and let's rewrite
the rules of midlife. Your new adventure starts
(01:28):
now. As you know, midlife is a bustling time. We
manage households, nurture relationships, advance
careers and raise children. These
responsibilities, while fulfilling, can sometimes
(01:51):
drain your energy and diminish your personal
strengths. To help you reawaken those dormant
powers and embrace the superhero that you truly
are, I created the Superhero
quiz@mysuperheroquiz.com this fast, free and fun
quiz will help you discover which superhero
mirrors your strengths and personality. Plus,
(02:13):
you'll receive a detailed guide tailored to your
superhero profile, helping you to harness your
strengths and and soar to new heights. Just head
over to my superhero quiz.com and embrace the
superhero within you.
Welcome back to the Midlife Makeover Show. I'm
your host, Wendy Valentine. Today's guest is
(02:34):
someone who's rewriting the story of separation
and showing families everywhere that it's possible
to part ways with peace, dignity and compassion.
Gabriella Paul Pomari is a family lawyer, award
winning author and co parenting advocate who's
helped countless parents transform conflict into
(02:54):
Collaboration. As a partner at the Norton Law
Group in Sydney and the author of the
collaborative, co parent, Gabriella brings, both
legal expertise and lived experience to the
emotional, often messy world of family
restructuring. In today's conversation, we'll talk
about how to co parent with Grace in the it's
possible even when your ex makes it a little
(03:17):
challenging. We'll explore Gabriella's four modes
of communication, how to set boundaries with a
difficult or narcissistic ex, and how to create
new family traditions that put your kids happiness
first. Whether you're navigating divorce, blended
family life, or simply want to communicate better
with loved ones, this episode will leave you with
(03:40):
practical tools and, and hope for healing. Please
welcome Gabriella to the show.
>> Gabriella Pomare (03:45):
What an introduction. Thank you. Thanks for having
this chat with me.
>> Wendy Valentine (03:50):
Yes, it is great to have you. And you're joining
us from Australia, hence the awesome, ah, adorable
accent. I have not. I can do an English accent,
but I've never been able to perfect the
Australian. So we'll have to hang out. Maybe by
the end of today's episode I'll like, finally get
it out.
>> Gabriella Pomare (04:08):
You'll have picked it up. That's it exactly. Thank
you.
>> Wendy Valentine (04:10):
And actually like, you're, I can actually
understand you. Like there's some Australians. I'm
like, are they saying I do not understand that?
>> Gabriella Pomare (04:17):
Oh, my God. Yeah, it's, it's not a very fancy
language, but once you start to understand us, you
know, I don't think I love it.
>> Wendy Valentine (04:26):
So, yeah, thanks for joining us and okay, there's
one thing I've noticed with all the guests I've
had on my show, 300 plus at this point, that they
teach what they have lived and what they have
learned and basically whatever solution they are
providing for the world, they have been through
(04:47):
the problem themselves. So tell us what you've
lived through in regards to separation and divorce
and most importantly, what you've learned.
>> Gabriella Pomare (05:00):
Yeah, well, I guess I'm a family lawyer, as you
said. So from a young age, I was exposed to
divorce and separation. My dad is also a family
lawyer. So I knew all about this concept from
really young. and then I went through it myself. I
was 30 at the time. I'd been with my then husband
since high school. So I think the reality was we
were both very young. We hadn't matured, we hadn't
(05:22):
really gone out into the working world. And then
you do and you change as a person, right? You
start to find yourself and you grow apart. So
there wasn't necessarily this high conflict
Dynamic or situation at that time. Anyway, certain
things happen. Obviously. I had a one year old,
just about a one year old at the time. And I think
it was when I went through that and I woke up and
I was like, this is my life now. what do I
(05:44):
actually do? I know what the law says. I know how
to, you know, draft orders, I know how to divide
up our property, how to work out custody and those
sorts of things. But practically, what do I
actually do? How do I do this? How do I get on
with him? We're going to be, you know, partners
together now for another 18 years or more. Because
I think the reality is, and, you know, it doesn't
end when your child turns 18. They're going to,
(06:04):
you know, get married themselves or have
relationships and christenings and graduations. So
you kind of stuck working out how to get on. So
that's what really gave me this idea and said,
people need a practical guide. They need to work
out how to actually do this away from lawyers, and
have some sort of pathway forward.
>> Wendy Valentine (06:23):
Yeah, you're so right. At what point, did you
realize in the marriage you're like, I got. It's
time for me to move on. Like, what was, what were
some of those signs for you, if you don't mind
sharing, that you were like, okay, it's time to
go.
>> Gabriella Pomare (06:40):
I think communication stops. I think the reality
is you stop talking, you stop asking. You know,
how was your day? Or maybe I, know it sounds
terrible, caring, and that sounds dreadful. But
you get to a point where you don't ask, what did
you get up to today? Or how was work? Or, hey,
these are the things that happened in my day. And
I think when it gets to that point, there's a
really unhealthy dynamic. there's that. There's.
(07:02):
When you perhaps start going out separately more
often than not. So I found myself wanting to go
out with friends, girlfriends, be out and about.
And I thought, oh, that's odd. I should be wanting
to go out with my loved one, perhaps not my
friends. There's a lot going on there. and then I
was in this unfortunate dynamic, I suppose. So at
that exact same time, my mom, who at that point
(07:22):
was still quite young and very close with me, had
a big stroke. So she ended up in hospital for an
entire year. So I had that going on. I was like,
I'm not happy. I need to make a change. and as bad
as all that was, I'm so happy that I did.
>> Wendy Valentine (07:39):
How much did it help you, since you knew a lot
professionally how to handle it personally?
>> Gabriella Pomare (07:47):
Good question. I think I was smart, enough perhaps
to say, don't let yourself, you know, get into
this dynamic of the anger, the conflict, because
you know where that'll end up. And there were lots
of times I was, you know, drafting that really
angry text, probably saying stuff I shouldn't
have, and then I regret now. And then my head, I'm
(08:07):
like, no gab. Think about what you've seen in
court that's going to end up in a document
somewhere. Stop yourself. So that sort of lived
experience, that professional experience,
certainly has helped me. But, hey, I'm not
perfect. I can tell you that. First year was
rough. I did send those bad text messages. I got
into dumb arguments, you know, you're not picking
him up now. I don't agree to this. No, I'm not
(08:27):
swapping. Don't let this girlfriend meet him,
whatever it might be. But you learn from
experience, and after several years, you sort of,
I think, calm it down. if you let yourself grow
and move on.
>> Wendy Valentine (08:39):
Yeah. I mean, do you. Do you believe there's such
a thing as a good divorce? Like you can actually
have a good, decent, peaceful divorce?
>> Gabriella Pomare (08:49):
I think you can. And I think if you want to put
your kids first, you will. yeah, but it's not
easy. And I don't think it's a decision you make
necessarily from day one, because if you are
separating or divorcing, there's a reason for it.
It might just be that you got to a certain age and
you grew apart, and that's fair. And you both sort
of say, we're moving on. We want to live separate
lives, but we will be friends. And I've seen
(09:09):
clients and friends of mine who count so well,
they'll still have Christmases together,
birthdays, some even travel. I couldn't do that.
I'm happy to get on. I'm happy to call up, let you
know how the week's going, let you know how our
son's going, that sort of thing. I don't want to
travel with you and your new girlfriend.
>> Wendy Valentine (09:25):
I know that's a bit much. It's a little too much.
>> Gabriella Pomare (09:29):
That's a little close.
>> Wendy Valentine (09:30):
I think it's important to. To know that.
>> Gabriella Pomare (09:33):
Right.
>> Wendy Valentine (09:34):
What.
What are your own boundaries? Not just, yeah,
going through the divorce, but then even post
divorce. Like, what. What are your personal
boundaries? Because what your friend Judy might be
doing her post divorce, maybe M. Like, yeah, like
you said, like, I don't want to be traveling with
you people. I don't want to be hanging out with
(09:55):
you people. Like, I want to do just the minimum of
whatever I'm supposed to do. Or like, I don't want
to be buddies here. So, yeah, let's talk about
that.
>> Gabriella Pomare (10:06):
It's an internal conflict. I have a lot because
I've got clients who realistically, if they're
coming to see me as a lawyer, they're high
conflict. There's issues there that you need a
lawyer. And then I know what I'm doing in my life.
And it's hard for me sometimes to give advice
because I will often say, what are you arguing
over? Are we seriously arguing over an hour on
your kid's birthday? Get over it. Are we seriously
arguing about Christmas? There are bigger things,
(10:27):
but I can't give that advice. But I'll often say,
you know, this is how I do things that may not
work for you. so there's that. But you're right, I
think it is about boundaries and I think it's
about communicating those boundaries. So for an
example, as I think I told you, I've got a 12,
almost 12 month next week. And that sort of
changed everything. The entire dynamic of this
(10:48):
whole whatever we have. Beautiful new, blended,
wacky modern family. Right. and it was sort of,
how much information does my ex know about the
baby? Because obviously my son wants to share.
Yeah, this is my sister. This is what she's doing.
Look at a photo of her. I'll put her on FaceTime.
And for him that'd be so difficult. For me, it's
just odd. So I'm like, what's the crossover? What
(11:09):
do we do? What boundary is there? And it's hard.
You've got to navigate it.
>> Wendy Valentine (11:13):
Yeah, yeah, Communication, Absolutely. I mean, I
think I've learned, I don't know about you. It's
like, well, let's say I'm 52 now. I'm turning 53
in a couple weeks. On, on Thanksgiving, everyone.
I'm a turkey, baby. but one thing I've learned,
communication is just key with everything.
>> Gabriella Pomare (11:34):
Whether that communication is key to. Do you stay
together, do you separate? And can you co parent
and can you get on or not?
>> Wendy Valentine (11:41):
Yeah, exactly. And I would even think too, I don't
know if you've seen this, where maybe, I mean,
there are relationships in marriage where there is
no conflict because you actually, you get along
too well. But it's just kind of there. It's
mediocre, it's boring. And that can turn from like
having zero Conflict in a relationship, which can
(12:01):
be very bland and boring for a lot of people,
believe it or not. And then to going into divorce
and having conflict and then not knowing if you
didn't, if you were that type of relationship,
where you did not communicate, you did not talk
about any things, you didn't even state what your
values and your needs were to then going through
(12:22):
divorce and being like, you know, I can imagine
that would be shocking to the individual. And then
collectively as, as a whole.
>> Gabriella Pomare (12:35):
Yeah. And I think you don't really look at or
understand your communication style often till,
afterwards. And I was asked that question
recently. Do you think knowing someone's
communication style and communicating things like,
you know, your values, what you believe in, what
you're from early on, does that then shape your
marriage or your relationship and whether you end
up separating or not? And it probably does. So I
think maybe if you identify your communication
(12:57):
style and how you're going to do that and operate
early on, you could avoid this whole idea of
separation. But if not, I think you need to adapt
your communication style post divorce to say, this
is how we're going to do it moving forward because
we have to stay connected now. If you have kids,
moving forward, it's the only way it's going to
work. Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (13:18):
And I would think the key too is just being
proactive. Right. It's better to be proactive than
reactive, preventative than, you know, than having
to repair. And sometimes it's usually like if you
have to be the one to take that first step, it's
just like in any argument you're like, dang it, do
I have to be the one that's like, okay, let me go
(13:39):
ahead and bring the peace and m. Sometimes. Yeah.
And sometimes it's hard because if the other
person in the relationship and throughout the
divorce is being a total ass, you kind of like,
why do I have to be the one to try to bring the
piece? But what, like, but what are you bringing
the piece for? It's for yourself, it's for the
(14:01):
children. Right.
>> Gabriella Pomare (14:02):
I think it's for both. Right. Because my view
anyway and something that I'm big on and my
message is you need to sort of heal yourself and
be at one with yourself to be a good parent or co
parent. Right. So I think it's when you say I'm
being the bigger person, I don't want to, I
shouldn't have to. I agree with you. And it
certainly isn't going to happen day one. It's a
(14:22):
journey. It's A massive journey. But when you're
there and you've sort of come to peace with
yourself saying, I don't care anymore, you know
what? If I'm the one who has to reach out, if I'm
the one who has to give in, if I'm the one who has
to say sorry, so be it. I feel better about
myself, and my kid is going to be so much better
for it.
>> Wendy Valentine (14:38):
Yeah.
What did you learn about yourself personally and.
And even what you wanted in that next
relationship, which is the relationship you have
now. How did that shift for you, your whole
mindset and your. And your belief? and your values
regarding marriage, being a parent?
>> Gabriella Pomare (14:57):
Yeah, the good question. I think for me, I needed
to go on that healing journey first. And to be
honest, I still don't know if it was long enough.
I mean, what is. How long is it? It's never
ending, probably. And I think I'm still changing
now, day to day. And I think writing this book has
changed me. A. Speaking about these things so
often, my mindset keeps shifting. But I think if,
(15:19):
for me, having gone through what I went through
was trust number one, you really need to learn to
be able to trust someone. And being able to do
that post, separating or divorcing someone is
hard. can I trust you? Am I still going to have
these ideas of what was. Is that going to
translate into my current relationship? and I
think I had to let go a bit. I'm probably a little
bit of a control freak, where I always want to be
(15:41):
in control. I want to know what's happening. I
want it my way. And, yeah, that's not how life
goes. Sadly. Sadly, we can't be in control of it
all. So I've had to let go a lot. and one thing
that I really value in this relationship is being
on the same page about life, about work, about
family. And we both have really demanding jobs.
We're sort of working around the clock, so we
(16:02):
still need that time to step back and I think
connect. And that's one of the hardest things in a
relationship, I think, finding that time to
connect.
>> Wendy Valentine (16:09):
Yeah.
And I think divorce can teach you a lot about
yourself, about life, about relationships. And, I
mean, I know for me, like, I went through. Well,
let's see, it's been almost. Almost eight years
since my divorce. Nine. Nine years since
separation. And I always said I was like, all
right, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get a divorce and I'm
(16:31):
gonna marry myself. You know, it's so. It's so
common though, that male or female were like, all
right, yeah, what's. Where's the next partner? You
know, you're like, ah, And I was like, this time,
Wendy, we're doing it differently. Yeah. And you
know, what is that the same? Was that Einstein
that said, you can't solve a problem with the same
level of mind that created it? Right. And I
(16:54):
remember thinking, like, I've got to change my
mindset. I've got to change my m, my heart, my. My
everything. And for me, right, Because I felt like
I was always, as I looked back at my life, it was
always about being there. Because I was a total
perfectionist, people pleaser, approval seeker.
(17:16):
You name it, I was doing it. And I was rocking all
of those roles and labels and I was like, for
once, one day, let's just drop this stuff, because
it was exhausting. And I realized how much that
affected not just my marriage, but all my
relationships.
>> Gabriella Pomare (17:36):
Yeah. Interesting.
>> Wendy Valentine (17:37):
Yeah. And I.
>> Gabriella Pomare (17:38):
And do you. Do you think it was that realization
that threw you into what you're doing now and the
book and the podcast and the conversations?
>> Wendy Valentine (17:46):
Totally. Which makes you, I feel like, trust. It
helps you to trust the process even more, knowing
that, okay, this divorce, this separation, this
breakup can teach me something about myself. It
can actually make me into a better man, woman, ah,
(18:07):
person, everything. Right. Like, it can actually
motivate m. You and it could be a catalyst to. To
create something.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's what happened for me.
>> Gabriella Pomare (18:21):
Yeah. No, I just think that that's where life sort
of, I was like, this is my moment. This is. I'm
out of the old into the new. But what do you want?
What do you really want out of life now? Because
this is your opportunity. And I think I start my
book like that. I sort of say, you have the power
now. You have the control. No one's telling you
what to do. This is your time to say, moving
forward. This is my life and this is what I'm
going to create. And it took me quite some time, I
(18:43):
guess, some years. And maybe in writing this book
or engaging now, you know, with others in this
platform, I say, wow, like, I've been able to
accomplish so much in the last few years because
I've had that time and that space to allow myself
to do what I want and to have these thoughts and
to process them and to explore them and keep
going. And that's a great thing. It's exciting,
it's empowering.
>> Wendy Valentine (19:03):
So cool.
Plus, I think too, you know, like, when you're, I
mean, obviously the midlife makeover show,
majority of the listeners are going to be at
midlife, 40s, 50s, beyond. Right? And you know,
what worked and what did not work in those first
few decades of life and now, but you're still
young enough to do something about it, do
(19:24):
something different. Right? And as I look back in
my 20s and many of us can relate to this, that we
were finding a partner that maybe was something
that society told us or parents or culture or
religion. And then when you wake up, you know, in,
(19:45):
you know, 40s or 50s, you're like, wait a second,
I don't, I don't like this type of relationship.
This is not what I want. This is what my parents
had or who my friends had, whatever. I don't like
those type of relationship. And then to your
point, you are the one that gets to decide. You
get to take your power back and go, I'm going to
create what I want. I'm going to go after the
(20:06):
relationship that I want, not what.
>> Gabriella Pomare (20:09):
And is it sad though that you have to go through
something so terrible or traumatic to realize
that? And that's the bit that I don't get. Why
can't we be realizing this and living our best
life and making our best decisions, married or
not, you know, in a relationship or not? And who
cares what age you are? But you're right, it's
this constant pressure of I need to get married, I
(20:30):
need to buy the house, I need to have a job, I
need to have the kids, I need to put them m
through school. Or do you, do you need to do those
things in that order? Or can you say, hold on for
the next few years, I'm doing me, I'm being my
best self, I'm getting my creative, you know, out,
out there. I just, there's so much more to do and
I think people need to see and I get that, you
know, I'm a different age bracket maybe, but I
(20:52):
want people to see this is the time to start doing
it. Because you don't necessarily want to wait 10,
20, 30 more years to wake up to that. Do it now.
don't go get divorced to do it.
>> Wendy Valentine (21:01):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
And it's not like you don't have to sacrifice
yourself, your happiness, your career, your. For a
relationship.
>> Gabriella Pomare (21:12):
exactly. Or even just as a mum sometimes I think I
often wake up and say, there's mum life. And you
know, I've got the dreaded school run every single
morning. And I'm like, yeah, it's great. But, you
know, like, this morning, I didn't do it. I rang
up my dad, so Granddad and I said, can you do the
school drop off today? I've got stuff I need to
do. And sometimes you need to be okay with that.
You need to say, I am a mum, and I'm doing my best
as a mum, but I'm still putting myself first
(21:33):
because I have things I want to do, too.
>> Wendy Valentine (21:35):
Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's one thing, going
back to my divorce, that I had realized. My. My
husband at the time, he had been through a lot,
and as a child and. And growing up, and I had been
through a lot. We both had suffered lots of trauma
and drama in our lives. And I thought I. I came to
(21:58):
him, I was like, you know what? Why don't we do
ourselves a favor and not cause any more bullshit
that we have to recover, from, like, why not? And,
I mean, it was kind of like my idea. I was like,
let's just. I came to the table. I was like, let's
do this. Let's see if we can actually go through
(22:19):
this as peacefully as possible. As possible.
Peacefully as possible. So that we don't have to
even have to, like, go to a therapist to recover
from what we're going to be going through in the
divorce. You know what I mean? It was like, why
exactly ourselves? Why do that?
>> Gabriella Pomare (22:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and that's my. That's my thought
always. I mean, I understand sometimes why there's
a need. you've got family violence, you've got
domestic violence. It's different. But if you're
two people who have either grown apart or you are
just so high conflict that it's become toxic in
that household, why increase that toxicity or that
conflict, using loyals and all, you still don't
(22:57):
need to continue to engage. And, you know, the
constant arguments, you know, I want this, I want
that. Why not just sit down together and say, we
managed to do the last 10, 20, 30 years together.
We've got a kid or beautiful kids, whatever it
might be. Can we keep mapping it out together?
I talk about a new version of family. Because you.
You're not really not a family anymore. You are
still a family. you're just some kind of new
(23:20):
family where you create your own new rules. So
make those rules. Ones say, right, this is how
we're doing things moving forward. One,
communication. Two, property and finances. Three,
kids, whatever it might be. But if you can work
out that map or that pathway that Framework
together. How much better is that for you
personally, that inner peace of yours? Because you
can say, oh, I'm not going to be crazy. You know,
(23:41):
every time I get a text from this person, it's not
going to blow up, you know, not going to rule my
day. every time I have to see them at a school
function or at a family gathering, it's not going
to ruin my week. If you can get into that mindset
early, earlier, that's fantastic. You're healing
yourself and you're allowing yourself to have such
a happier life. Why make yourself unhappy? Why
cause yourself grief for the sake of it? But more
(24:02):
importantly, how nice is that for your children to
see that?
>> Wendy Valentine (24:06):
Exactly. And plus, you're showing children that,
yes, you can actually, you know, get a divorce or
separate from a relationship or, you know, even if
it's like leaving a career or leaving a
friendship. Yes, it is possible to go through
something like that peacefully and.
>> Gabriella Pomare (24:26):
Yeah.
>> Wendy Valentine (24:27):
And responsibly. You know, it doesn't have to be
horrible. It does not have to be a horrible
experience.
>> Gabriella Pomare (24:34):
No, things don't always have to be. And what a lot
of parents forget is your child's experience of
your divorce shapes them into the future
massively. it shapes their future trajectory. So,
for example, what I've seen in my work and what
social science tells us is that as your child
grows older and they form their own relationships,
boyfriends, girlfriends, get married, have kids. A
(24:55):
lot of that comes back to my parents divorce and
how that shaped me. And I understand they will
still see arguments. I'm sure my son still hears
the odd angry phone call. It happens. No one's
perfect. But if in its entirety, you can have a
healthier co parenting dynamic that's going to
help your kid into their future. So keep that at
the forefront of your mind. Don't ruin their
(25:17):
future for your own. You know, I won that fight. I
won that battle.
>> Wendy Valentine (25:20):
Hi, and Wendy Ye Valentine. I want to share
something personal with you. At 45, my world
turned upside down. I was going through a divorce,
battling depression, grieving the loss of my
brother, and dealing with chronic illness. But I
want to tell you about a turning point in my
journey. Therapy. Speaking to a therapist was a
(25:42):
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(26:03):
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(26:24):
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We all have a choice, right? And where we're
placing our time and our energy, our thoughts, our
(26:45):
emotions. And, you know, at the end of the day and
at the end of life, you're not gonna be like, oh,
man, I won that one. You know, I got that. Like,
it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter in the
grand scheme of things. Yes.
>> Gabriella Pomare (27:00):
No, it feels good for five minutes, and I'm
telling you, a week later, no one remembers it.
there was no value to any of it. But it takes time
to realize that. And sometimes it takes going to
therapy, processing, journaling again, finding
yourself before you can get to that point where
you do wake up and realize, who cares about all of
this? My life is what's important to me now. It
(27:20):
might be my new friendships, my new job, my new
relationship, whatever it might be. Once you have
that focus and you realize there is so much more
to life and to my happiness, I think that's when
you start to let go. And that doesn't mean you
have to like the person. You can still sort of,
you know, send that text and then go to your best
friend, your sister, whoever might be on the
phone, you know, terrible person they are. And
(27:41):
that's fine.
>> Wendy Valentine (27:42):
Yeah.
>> Gabriella Pomare (27:42):
But you're not creating conflict or involving a
kid in that conflict. And that's the point.
>> Wendy Valentine (27:48):
So how do you. How do you handle if you really
have some, you know, a difficult ex, a narcissist,
which is, you know, I've known plenty too many of
them even. No matter how peaceful you come to the
table, that they're so still just wanting to
fight.
>> Gabriella Pomare (28:07):
Yeah. I think the reality is, isn't it? They want
you to fight back. So by fighting back, they're
winning. You're giving them what they want. That
is what a narcissist or a high conflict person
wants. So boundaries is the big thing. And if
you're dealing with someone like that, I agree,
you're not going to be able to have that phone
call or go to that school function together, but
it Might be that, you know, you've got a certain
communication method in place. It might be a
(28:27):
parenting app or text or email only. They're your
boundaries, simple as that. keep it really clear
cut, record everything. And that is okay too. That
is the dynamic of that relationship. But the
biggest thing is don't give in, don't fight back.
Don't let them win and don't let them know that
they're affecting you or impacting you because you
will continue to be giving into them forever. And
(28:48):
in their mind, they're on top still. So let go. go
and live life. Enjoy life. And if you can't co
parent, parallel parent, work out a different way
of doing it.
>> Wendy Valentine (28:58):
Yeah. Because otherwise, yeah, you're feeding the
fire and the fire just gets bigger and bigger and
then you end up.
>> Gabriella Pomare (29:03):
They love that.
>> Wendy Valentine (29:05):
Oh, gosh. So challenging.
Okay, so let's talk about. Is it the four, methods
of communication? Yeah, yeah.
>> Gabriella Pomare (29:13):
I call them pillars of communication.
>> Wendy Valentine (29:15):
Pillars of communication. I like that.
>> Gabriella Pomare (29:17):
It's a term. I think the idea of it is supposed to
fix the nature of high conflict communication or
broken down communication. And the reality is you
can start this a month after co parenting or five
years later. so the idea is, it's listen, pause,
reflect and respond. So the idea is listen. So
don't just hear what they're saying, but truly
listen to what they're trying to tell you. Even if
(29:39):
you don't agree, pause and go away. There is no
need that because you've got a text message that
might be something like, you know, it's because of
you, so and so was late for school today, or I'm
taking a daughter to Europe at Christmas. You
don't get to say whatever it is, go away, think
about it, reflect. Because there is no need to
send. Shoot from the hip and cause that conflict
(30:00):
by immediately responding. Think about it, go
away. Sometimes you might respond in 10 minutes,
sometimes half an hour, sometimes a day. Depends
on the nature of the question, the communication.
And then you go back and respond. And the whole
idea of that is to slow things down, you know,
cool the heat when there's arguments and really
think about what you're saying. I think it helps
(30:20):
with any big decisions, particularly parenting
wise. and it just helps that whole co parenting
dynamic. And again, it takes time to sort of put
that in place. Particularly if you're dealing with
someone who does shoot from the hip and who's
constantly texting you and they're angry and
they're demanding a response straight Away. But
there's that boundary and the boundary might be
after 8:00'. Clock. I don't respond, I'll talk to
(30:40):
you tomorrow. Or just because you've texted me
doesn't mean I have time to respond right now.
Unless it's an emergency. I'll get back to you
tomorrow. So things like that, that's essentially
how it works.
>> Wendy Valentine (30:50):
I would think too, that, you know, it probably
takes time after the divorce to kind of get into
the groove of the new dynamic.
Right.
Everything's changed. Even living situation, like
the schedules, all of that has changed. And to
maybe like give yourself, your child, children and
(31:11):
your ex a little bit of grace. Like, okay, like
it's gonna take us some time to kind of get into
this new groove.
>> Gabriella Pomare (31:18):
Exactly. And that's why I say it's a journey.
Because I think the reality is you're probably
still grieving the family you had and you thought
you were going to have. You know, you imagine a
life with this person and with this family. You
imagine going on holidays together, creating,
memories, traditions, you know, over the holidays
and birthdays, and all of a sudden that's not
there anymore. And it might be because you wanted
it, and it might be because you didn't want it.
And if you didn't want it, it's going to take a
(31:39):
lot longer to process and to be able to move
forward and communicate. So the biggest thing is
stop thinking about that person as an example or
as a romantic partner. Again, that takes time
because this is the person you shared a bed with.
This is the person you're living a life with. You
imagine a future with. And it will take time to
sort of switch that wiring in your brain from this
(32:00):
is my person to it's not anymore, it's now kind of
partner, some kind of business partner, whatever
you want to call it, it's a partnership now where
we need to manage our child and our child's
happiness and wellbeing. And once that rewiring
happens to, I think that's when you can start
this, you know, communication method or the way of
doing things differently, over time.
>> Wendy Valentine (32:21):
Yeah, exactly. And it's, it's possible to create
that harmony.
>> Gabriella Pomare (32:25):
I think it is. If you want to again, the decision
is with you, you can stay stuck in that place of
it's my ex. I'm upset at them. You know, might be
you were cheated on. It might have been a fair. I
get it. It is horrible. And it takes time and
there's a lot to it, but you have the power to
decide, do I say stuck in that moment or do I
allow myself to move forward for healing and for
my child?
>> Wendy Valentine (32:46):
I was thinking about this this morning, before we
met here today, that I was thinking like, I've
know so many people that have stayed together for
the sake of the children. They're miserable,
they're unhappy, they stay in the marriage for the
kids. Even, even when the kids are gone, even when
they're an empty nest and there's grandkids and
(33:09):
they're like, together. Yeah. But then I think
about. I'm like, even with what we've talked about
today, knowing that it's possible to have, ah, you
know, a peaceful, fulfilling life after divorce,
then it's like, okay, you can, you can have
(33:29):
divorce even for the sake of the children, even
for the sake of yourself and your.
>> Gabriella Pomare (33:34):
Own house, often better. Yeah. I think the problem
with that is the stigma. I think it's still
society and it's that stigma of the divorce.
You've come from a broken home, you've given your
child a broken family. And I hate that idea.
There's no such thing as a broken family. I get so
sick and tired of hearing about it. There are so
many people that stay together because they say,
(33:55):
I'm doing it for my child. Your child knows your
child is living in a home, but there's probably
conflict where you might be living in separate
bedrooms where you probably don't communicate very
well. They don't see that love and affection
between their parents and that's so much worse for
their own development, their own mental health.
And as we spoke about before, they grow up
thinking that's normal. So then when they get
(34:16):
married and they enter into relationships, we
don't need to be affectionate. My parents didn't
hold hands, my dad didn't always have dinner with
mom, so that's not ideal either. And it's probably
worse for your child. But if you can divorce
peacefully and live amongst two homes peacefully
and show your child. Yeah, you know what? It
didn't work out. Mum and dad don't live together
anymore, but we still love you and we still
(34:38):
respect each other enough to be able to get on for
you and make decisions about you, that is
fantastic. Because that's a healthy dynamic you're
modeling for your child, for their future.
>> Wendy Valentine (34:47):
Exactly, yeah. That you respect and love yourself
enough to move on, to live, to live your. To live
your life.
>> Gabriella Pomare (34:56):
Yeah. I think it's nice for your child to see mum
happy or dad happy. Mum's living life. She's
killing it she's working or dad's out there, he's
happy, he's respectful of mum. That's the thing
children want to see.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:07):
I actually, my friend, my best friend Amy just
came to visit and I've always thought about her
because she, her parents divorced when she was,
when she was young. And I remember her saying that
she, her parents had a great divorce that they
like, she's like, I don't even notice. I didn't.
(35:27):
Like, that's what you want. You want the child to
barely notice anything. Like, it went from, okay,
they're not, it's not working out and here we go
and life goes on and we're still happy.
>> Gabriella Pomare (35:37):
She's a filter friend.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:39):
Yeah, I mean she, and she truly grew up.
>> Gabriella Pomare (35:43):
Grew up.
>> Wendy Valentine (35:43):
I mean, she's a grown woman now. She just turned
50 to be, to be a, happy, healthy, harmonious
woman. So.
>> Gabriella Pomare (35:51):
And that is, you know, hats off to appearance
because it's because of the way they handle that,
that is her experience of it. Because you see too
many kids say, you know, my parents, divorce
ruined me. I want more of these kids. My parents,
you know, they got divorced and they put me first
and I had this fantastic life. And that's what I
want from my son. He's only young and we may not
get it right all the time. He asked the questions
(36:14):
now all the time because he was one at the time.
And in my head I was like, he's never going to
remember. He's going to have no idea what it means
to be divorced. He just will always know. I live
in two homes, but having gone to school now, I get
the constant questions, why is, you know, Jack's
family, his mum and dad live together. Why do I
have to swap homes? And I don't even know how to
answer that. And that's what I do for a living.
(36:34):
It's my job. And I sort of sit there at night and
I say, okay, how am I going to answer this one?
but it's true. It's the way I answer those
questions and deal with it, that will help him
process and then move forward and make him feel
normal, to use an expression. and the crazy thing
is he's the only person and he's, he's in pre
kindergarten, 60 kids, only divorced family, which
(36:56):
is bizarre, for 20, 25.
>> Wendy Valentine (36:59):
Yeah, exactly. It's funny, I can remember, like
maybe over a decade ago. I can remember my
youngest saying, it's like, you know, the Reimers,
like, they, they all live in the same house,
they're all from the same mom and dad. And I was
like, that's weird. Why aren't they doing it our
(37:21):
way?
>> Gabriella Pomare (37:22):
Yep. Yep. I think that's how it's going to be in
the future, sadly. Yeah. I mean, isn't it nice if
that is the way and everyone's happy and getting
own?
>> Wendy Valentine (37:29):
Yeah, exactly.
>> Gabriella Pomare (37:32):
Do you.
>> Wendy Valentine (37:32):
Do you find that there's a difference between, you
know, if, if you're getting divorced when the
children are young versus when they're teenagers
or even already out of the nest and they're.
They've moved on and they've got their careers and
families, Is there a difference between the
impact?
>> Gabriella Pomare (37:52):
100%. Because I guess for a young child, it's how
you tell them, it's how you shield them. And for
them, they just really need a lot of stability and
consist, need that routine pattern. Things can't
change too much as you start getting to teenagers
and older children, they ask a lot more questions
and they want to know why. Why is this happening?
What have I done? Can I change things? What's mom
(38:14):
or dad done to hurt one another? And you need to
be extra careful how you answer that. I deal with
a lot of clients who think I'm going to be really
truthful because my kid's 14, 15, and I don't
think that is the way to do it. Your kid doesn't
need to know if one of you had an affair, if you
grew apart, if you lacked into all those details.
They don't need to know that. They need to know
it's not working. Mom and dad love you. You can
(38:36):
give them a bit more of an adult reasoning, but
they still don't need to know the ins and outs
because, believe it or not, that guilt will sit
inside their heads and they will think about it
and they will mull over it.
I think that's the difficulty with teenagers. And
also then they start playing parents off one
another. They're smart. So as soon as they're
living in two homes, it's, oh, Mum's not letting
me go out, or I've got a curfew, you know, at
Dad's house, I'm going to live at Mums. And
(38:57):
there's this back and forth. I'm seeing that now
in my work so much. So there are so many people I
have divorced or done their divorce four or five
years ago and they come back to me now with
teenage kids. So back then the kids were 8, 9.
Simple enough, right now they're 14, 15, and it's
hell at home. It's, you know, they're breaking out
of home, they're breaking curfew, they're
(39:18):
drinking, they're engaged in tick tock, all this
stuff. Right. Parents can't control them. And as
soon as one parent puts the. They're down. It's
playing off one another. I'll live with you. I'll
live with you. Mom will let me change schools. And
that's so hard for parents. Look, it's something
we all have to navigate, but I certainly think
it's a whole different dynamic when you got
teenagers and you're going through it.
>> Wendy Valentine (39:37):
So, yeah, hanging on for the sake of the children
is not such a good method there because, yeah, if,
you know, if, you know, like, all right, I need to
get a divorce. This is not working out for me. And
you know that when the children are young.
>> Gabriella Pomare (39:51):
Yeah, do it young. Get them stable, get them into
a good routine. Show them that it's working. So
that when they are teenagers, they're in this
consistent pattern and mom and dad are making it
work. You know, as teenagers, if they see you
starting to process your divorce and you're
healing in front of them, it's harder, you know.
And don't be their best friend. A lot of my
clients think I'm going to become best friends
(40:12):
with my teenager, my child, and all of a sudden
I'm there gossiping, you know, with my daughter
who's 15, saying, dad did this. Your dad's not m
paying child support. He texts me this. What do
you think about his girlfriend? That's not healthy
either. It's sort of a toxic relationship. It's
this dependent relationship we see where then the
teenager becomes parentified. And that causes so
many problems too.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:33):
I've seen that, actually. I even have some friends
that have done that too, where. Yeah, they have
tears.
>> Gabriella Pomare (40:39):
It's easy to fall into it.
>> Wendy Valentine (40:40):
Yes. Yeah. And then you're like, especially if
it's all girls. I mean, no, that's hard.
>> Gabriella Pomare (40:46):
Yeah. It's natural to want to talk about that.
It's natural to say, oh, you know, I'm just, this
has just happened. But just don't, don't ring up a
friend if you can. If you don't have a friend.
Journal. I would say type an email, write this
email, type a text, but don't send it. Get
everything out. Get all that, you know, that
emotion out, that anger, and then save it, delete
(41:08):
it, whatever you need to do. Process it, move
forward.
>> Wendy Valentine (41:11):
Yeah, you don't want to Involve the children in
the drama. You don't want to create. Create
anything for them.
>> Gabriella Pomare (41:18):
It becomes a competition. You think if I can tell
them all the bad things their other parents done,
they'll want to live with me more or, you know, or
side with me more?
>> Wendy Valentine (41:26):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Gabriella Pomare (41:27):
And that can feel nice initially because you need
that comfort. You know, you've lost your life
partner, so you think, I need that additional
comfort from children. But long term, it's not
healthy. It's not healthy for them then or later
on. And that can be hard to process or understand,
but they're not the right person to be your
emotional outlet.
>> Wendy Valentine (41:46):
I, like what you said on your website about
putting the children at the center instead of in
the middle.
>> Gabriella Pomare (41:53):
M. Absolutely. Because in the middle it's. It's
you and your co parent using them as a messenger
or as that, you know, break of that tug of war.
Whereas when at the center of every decision,
it's, hang on before I send that message, before I
make that decision, what's best for my child.
>> Wendy Valentine (42:09):
Yeah, you're exactly right.
>> Gabriella Pomare (42:10):
Because I would think that's the core of it.
>> Wendy Valentine (42:12):
Yeah. The children, the number one thing, they
just want to feel safe. They want to feel safe.
They want to feel that they're loved. No matter if
dad is living a mile away or 100 miles away. They
just want to feel safe and loved and connected and
comforted. Like, yeah, 100.
>> Gabriella Pomare (42:31):
And they don't want to feel guilty. They want to
feel it's okay to talk about having a good time at
Mum. Mum's or at Dad's when they're in the other
home, they want to feel safe enough to know it's
okay. If I want to talk to Mum about Dad today,
you know, can I call dad because something
exciting happened at school or can I mention what
I did with dad on the weekend? You need to allow
your child to feel normal enough and safe enough
(42:52):
and happy enough to talk to you about those
things. And you probably don't want to hear it. I
don't necessarily on a Sunday night, want to hear
about all the great things, you know, my son did
with his dad. It kind of makes you sad sometimes
thinking about what you missed out. But you've got
to let him think it's okay to talk about it and
feel happy enough to talk about it because that's
good for him and he knows then. Okay, Mum's okay
with it. I can, I can talk to her and that's nice.
>> Wendy Valentine (43:14):
Yeah. And. And to not feel for the children to not
feel that the separation, the divorce was her
fault.
>> Gabriella Pomare (43:21):
Absolutely.
Yeah. That is the biggest thing. Because usually
children will think that right or wrong, and there
may not be any reason for it, but they'll
question, could I have done something different to
stop this happening?
>> Wendy Valentine (43:32):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. You never, I mean, you think
like, as we know too, especially with neuroscience
and all the studies of. I mean, our brains are
absorbing everything around us, but especially as
children and that everything that you're saying
and doing and how you're being the child is, is
(43:55):
absorbing that. And they're carrying that into
their, into their entire life.
>> Gabriella Pomare (44:00):
They learn everything from you. And I think one of
the chapters that I think I know, one of the
chapters in my book is called. It's the messages
you send that matter the most. And it's got
nothing to do with literal messages, but it's
everything from, you know, an eye roll, a change
over. It's your body language, it's getting off a
phone call, it's how you handle any sort of
conversation or decision making process your kids
(44:21):
picking up on that. and they're, as you say,
they're mocking or mimicking, but they're learning
how you do things. And automatically that
translate to how they do things, their way of
thinking, their body language, how they relate to
people. So it's not just the things we say, it's
not just the text messages we send. It's
absolutely everything we do that they're learning
from. And I know that you won't remember that day
(44:44):
one after separating or, you know, even if you're
an intact family and you have an argument, you
won't always remember that. But that's when you've
got to be child focused and centered and say, I
need to be careful the way I do things because
they're learning from me.
>> Wendy Valentine (44:58):
Yeah, yeah, I know. I wish like nine.
>> Gabriella Pomare (45:02):
I wish it was that easy.
>> Wendy Valentine (45:03):
I know, right? Yeah.
>> Gabriella Pomare (45:06):
And, we can talk about this because we've thought
about it, we've read about it, and you know, I
think back and say, great, over the last few
years, here's where I've done it, right or wrong.
But you know, in the moment, you won't get it
right straight away. But as you process and as you
go back and you heal and you think about it and
you learn, you will start doing these things and
you will become more child focused and centered in
(45:26):
all of that.
>> Wendy Valentine (45:28):
And don't you think too, the healing can even
begin before the divorce.
>> Gabriella Pomare (45:35):
It's often the reason people sometimes get
divorced because they find Themselves going
through some sort of healing journey or pattern,
or they're starting to find themselves. And
perhaps that's when you wake up and say, say, wow,
I'm feeling different. I'm this different person
now. The way I engage with people, what I want
from the world, you know, let's talk, you know,
and it might be both of you, and that's when it
(45:55):
might be a joy decision to separate. So you may
have already healed or been on that pathway to
healing, and it makes that easier. So, so many
different stages of life. And as you say, every
couple will experience it differently. Every
individual, even within a relationship, will
experience a different stage.
>> Wendy Valentine (46:11):
Yeah, yeah. And again, just giving yourself some
grace, it takes time and be patient with yourself
and the process and the all of it. It'll
definitely teach you a lot about life and about
yourself, you know, in the best way.
>> Gabriella Pomare (46:27):
But, all the good parts of life do good and bad
parts, I think. And isn't that what life is? I
mean, I don't think anyone wants a life that is
just slow and steady and you go by. I think you
need the ups and downs to find yourself and to
find. Find. You know, I don't know if there's
ultimate happiness. We all have different
thoughts. But to find those happy periods and to
work out what you want, you need to go through
these ups and downs.
>> Wendy Valentine (46:49):
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, if it was up all the
time, my God, that even that would be exhausting,
you know? I mean. Yeah. I mean, what is it saying
Pain is inevitable. Inevitable, but suffering is
optional, right?
>> Gabriella Pomare (47:02):
And you can trust. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Don't get
me wrong. I kind of like sometimes there are those
times when you want to sit in your pajamas and
you're feeling sad about something. You know what?
I don't mind doing that for a day. Just letting
myself sit in my own grief or my own thoughts. But
then I kick myself up and I say, all right, we
can't do this again tomorrow. Let yourself do it
today. Find something to make yourself happy
(47:23):
tomorrow, or goal to accomplish tomorrow or this
week, and then start doing that. So I think again,
we need that. We need that balance of allowing
time for ourselves to, again, keep processing,
finding what's going on within us and then moving
forward and picking something to then do and work
towards.
>> Wendy Valentine (47:40):
I love this conversation. I do like. I mean, I
actually like. I love all the conversations I have
on this show. But, And it sounds weird to think
like, oh, I can't wait to talk about divorce, but.
But I love talking about it because there's a
positive side to it. You're living proof. I'm
living proof. There's lots of women and men where
(48:02):
it's living proof. And the children that, yes,
there is life beyond divorce.
>> Gabriella Pomare (48:08):
I, think that's the message. Yeah. And that is the
message that has to get out there. There's this
stigma of it's bad. And, you know, you've. You've
created this terrible life for your child.
Nothing. Not at all. If you allow yourself to find
the positive in it, and if you allow yourself, you
know, to create something special out of it, there
is such a life, and there can be such a life. And
(48:29):
you have so many opportunities available to you.
But again, it's up to you. You choose your life,
you choose the decisions. And again, forget the
stigma. Forget what society says. Ignore it. You
get to decide how you process that. And whether
you ignore it or whether you let those messages
sit in your mind and stop you from moving forward.
>> Wendy Valentine (48:48):
Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love it. So glad.
Not that I wanted you to go through divorce, but
I'm glad you learned.
>> Gabriella Pomare (48:57):
Through all of it.
>> Wendy Valentine (48:57):
You wrote this book. And I mean, everyone. Yes.
Like, actually, I wouldn't think, think, even post
divorce, even if you've been through it all. Like,
buy the book, read the book, because it'll only
help you with communicating in the future.
Right.
Like, for. I mean, look at me. I have three adult
children. Someday they'll be getting married and
having kids, and I will be going to the weddings
(49:20):
where my ex is there, probably with his, you know,
new wife and who. You know what I mean? Like,
it's, I'm all for personal development and
improving yourself and improving all relationships
and. And again, like, even if. Even if your
children are older, they're still seeing that
you're trying to make things even better every
single day.
>> Gabriella Pomare (49:42):
Absolutely. I think even if you learn one thing
from any resource that you read or listen to or
engage with, how great's that? there will always
be something you can apply to some facet of your
life.
>> Wendy Valentine (49:53):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
All right, so where can we find you? How do we get
your book?
>> Gabriella Pomare (49:58):
Okay, so book everywhere online. All good
retailers, my website, so www.collabor
collaborativeco-parent.com and follow me on
Instagram at Collaborative Co Parent.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:11):
Nice. I love the name Collaborative Co Parent.
>> Gabriella Pomare (50:15):
I woke up one day and I said, you need to be
collaborative and you need to be a co parent.
We'll make it not terribly unique, but it works.
And that's the message.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:25):
So yeah. Thank you so much.
>> Gabriella Pomare (50:28):
Thank you for having me.
>> Wendy Valentine (50:29):
Did this part podcast inspire you? Challenge you,
treat everyone? Have a great day or spit out your
coffee laughing. Good. Then there are three ways
you can thank me. Number one, you can leave a
written review of this podcast on Apple iTunes.
Number two, you can take a screenshot of the
episode and share it on the social media and tag
me Wendy Valentine. Number three, share it with
(50:52):
another midlifer that needs a makeover. You know
who I'm talking talking about. Thank you so much
for listening to the show. Get out there and be
bold. Be free. Be you.
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