November 28, 2024 • 28 mins
I'm thrilled to have had the opportunity to sit down with Emma Thomas, the founder of Managing the Menopause.
In this insightful episode, we dive deep into the crucial topic of menopause in the workplace. As a woman in my 40s, I've personally experienced the challenges that can arise during this transitional phase of life.
However, I've come to realize that menopause is not just a personal issue - it's a significant workplace concern that affects millions of women across the UK. Emma's expertise and passion for this subject are truly inspiring.
She shares eye-opening statistics that highlight the real impact menopause can have on women's careers, productivity, and overall well-being.
From the staggering number of women experiencing debilitating symptoms to the alarming rates of women leaving their jobs due to lack of support, it's clear that this is an issue that can no longer be ignored.
Throughout our conversation, Emma provides practical, actionable advice for both managers and HR professionals on how to approach this sensitive topic with empathy and understanding.
She emphasizes the importance of normalizing the conversation, training line managers, and implementing inclusive policies that address the unique needs of menopausal employees.
Whether you're a business leader, HR professional, or simply someone who wants to better understand this important issue, this episode is a must-listen. By tuning in, you'll gain valuable insights that can help create more supportive and inclusive workplaces for women navigating the challenges of menopause.
You can find Emmas podcast here.
Links mentioned in this episode -
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi. I'm Kat Wildman, and welcome
(00:01):
to the powered by diversity
podcast today, we're joined by
Emma, and we're talking all
about menopause at work. How is
menopause a workplace issue? I
mean, Emma's answer was one of
the best I've ever heard. It was
more like, how is it not a
workplace issue? We talk all
about the midlife collision and
how it disproportionately
affects women. We talk about how
we can approach menopause as
managers and as HR and how it
(00:22):
may not even involve a policy at
all. I hope you enjoy the
episode. Hi Emma. Thank you so
much for joining us today. And
today we're going to be talking
about your specialist topic,
which is all about menopause. So
let's start with an
introduction. Do you want to
introduce yourself to our
listeners?
(00:43):
So I'm Emma Thomas. I'm the
founder of managing the
menopause, and I work alongside
my wonderful sister in law, Dr
Beth Thomas, who is a menopause
specialist and a GP and has
decades working in women's
health. So between us, we
deliver all kinds of workplace
training and education, so lunch
(01:03):
and learns and ask the doctor,
sessions line manager training.
We've also working on some self
directed online training for
line managers. So that is a bit
about us. About me. I live in
beautiful Oxford. I've got two
kids. I'm married, no Pete.
There's enough going on.
Oh my gosh, wonderful. Thank you
(01:25):
so much. That's a lovely
introduction. I love it. I love
a bit of personal touch, also
the flavor, yeah, so let's get
straight into it. There's so
much talk about menopause at the
moment, and one of the things I
think that still needs to click
with people is how menopause is
a workplace issue. So I think
there's still a lot of people
who look at women's health
(01:46):
topics like menopause, periods,
etc, and they're like, do we
need to talk about this in work?
So what would you say to that?
Absolutely, so just kind of give
you a little bit of scene
setting first, in terms of some
sort of facts and figures. So
there's around 13 million
menopause are women in the UK,
and 80% of them are in the
workplace. We've got some really
(02:08):
good research that's come out
over the last couple of years.
So the first one Fauci society
is menopause in the workplace,
report, which came out in 2022
and according to that, 77% of
women experienced one or more
symptoms they describe as very
difficult. 44% said that their
ability to work had been
affected, and one in 10 who'd
been employed during that sort
(02:29):
of transition had left work due
to their symptoms and not being
sort of supported in the
workplace. Around another 14%
had reduced their hours, so
maybe gone part time, and
another 8% hadn't applied for
promotion. So, you know,
thinking about this in terms of
progressing women and those
(02:49):
assigned female at birth through
the workforce, it can, you know,
it can really, really impact
people. Another survey by the
Chartered Institute personal and
develop personnel, sorry and
development, last year, found
that three quarters of women
experiencing menopause symptoms
were struggling to cope at work.
So very, very similar stats to
the Fauci society one. And then
(03:10):
more recently, we've got the
Deloitte Women at Work report,
which has just come out, and
that was not just looking at
menopause, but also sort of, you
know, female health more widely,
including sort of menstruation.
And in that one 40% of women who
experience high levels of pain
due to either menstruation or
(03:30):
men are poor said that they work
through it. And that's compared
to 20% last year. So that's a
huge jump up. So that's double,
and only 19% unfortunately, who
were experiencing challenges
related to their menopause said
that they were supported by
their employers after disclosing
that as a reason for, you know,
maybe taking time off work
again, that's really dropped
(03:51):
away from 30% feeling that they
were supported last year. So
something going on there, we're,
you know, we're talking about it
more, but we're not getting it
right in the workplace, and
people not feeling comfortable
discussing this with their
manager. So again, we're up to
14% now feeling uncomfortable,
compared with 10% last year, and
(04:12):
people feeling that, you know,
actually disclosing it can
really negatively impact their
career. One more report, I
think, I promise. So there's a
BSIs lifting the second glass
ceiling report, which again came
out last year, and that one
actually looked across 5000
women four continents. 52% said
that they would be uncomfortable
raising menstruation and
(04:33):
menopause issues with a male
manager. And actually seven 17%
said the same about a female
manager. But as we would expect,
that's a lot lower. So the
conversation is definitely, you
know, changing. It's becoming
more mainstream, and definitely
the UK is leading the charge on
this, with other countries sort
of looking to us to see what
we're doing, and the sort of
(04:55):
recognition of a need for more
menopause friendly workplaces
and. And policies, but you know,
there is still a lot of taboo
and shame, uh, surrounding this
and stigma. So I think it's
really, really important to
remember that, you know, it's
only about one in four that will
experience these sort of really
debilitating symptoms, and
(05:17):
actually a lot of people will
get through it with, you know,
very little impact and not much
need for support at all. One in
four is still a high proportion.
And if those people are
struggling at work, they feel
that they can't talk about it.
They feel that if they do talk
about it, there's not going to
be the support there, and it's
going to disadvantage them. Then
that's a real issue. So I like
(05:39):
to think now I kind of come from
a change back, change management
backgrounds, I think, well,
what's in it for me that wi, if
wi, IFM, what's in it for me as
an employer. So let's have a
sort of unpack some of that. So,
you know, really getting to
grips with this an issue can
improve sort of productivity,
well being within the workforce,
engagement and retention. So,
(06:00):
you know, we really want to
retain, especially those people
that they might be at senior
levels of an organization. You
know, if they walk out the door,
we're losing organizational
knowledge. We're losing, you
know, very often, those are the
people who are deeply embedded
in employee resource groups, in
mentoring within organizations.
You know, they're they're
getting stuff done, reducing
absenteeism and sort of the
(06:21):
costs associated with rehiring
and retraining people who leave
with a lot of experience, and it
has a real impact on gender
diversity at senior levels of an
organization. So you know, in
all of those discussions that
we're having around sort of
gender pay gap, are you thinking
about menopause as one of the,
you know, critical strands
(06:42):
within that possibly not Wow.
I mean, like, how can anyone not
be focusing on menopause? When
you look at those stats, it's
just overwhelmingly in support
of we need to do something. But
there's so many people who are
still so uncomfortable talking
about menopause. I had a
conversation, just to throw this
in there, had a conversation the
other day with a man, and he was
(07:04):
saying, you know, he was, he was
giving an analogy about how we
talk about a different area of
EDI. He was saying, you know, I
had this woman, and she was
talking to me about menopause in
great detail, and it was just
too much. It was just too much
for me. And I just was like, but
you talk to your team the way
that you just talked to me about
menopause, because that you're
going to make them run a mile.
How do we balance that? How do
(07:25):
we get the conversation about
menopause away from the oh,
that's just awkward, because I
am still from the generation
where my mom did not talk to me
about any of this stuff. My
grandma certainly didn't. And so
my mum was from the from the
baby boomer generation. I'm in
my 40s, and so she definitely
(07:47):
would not have been comfortable
talking about any of this stuff.
And would have just been like,
Oh my gosh. First question, do
you think there's going to be
generational shift? And second
question, how can we make people
less uncomfortable about talking
about this sort of stuff? Yeah,
great
question. I mean, let's take the
generational shift one first.
Yes, absolutely right. Even
elder Millennials so called are
kind of entering into
(08:08):
perimenopause. Now, you know, if
you think the Gen X's are
starting to make a lot of noise
about this, wait till the
millennials get hold of it. So,
you know, it absolutely is
something that workplaces need
to get ahead of where we've got
these sort of multi generational
workforces now, with maybe five
generations in the workplace.
Yeah, we know that those sort of
(08:30):
younger generations coming
through place so much value on
the sort of the well being the
DNI in the workplaces that they
are looking to and you know, if
they go somewhere and find that
there are empty promises, they
will vote with their feet, and
they will go somewhere that is
actually delivering on what they
say they want to. And then in
(08:50):
terms of how, how we normalize
the conversation, so, so many
things that we can do, I think,
you know, raising awareness is,
is one of the really important
one, so education and awareness.
So running, you know, running
workshops of the kind that we
deliver, I think there's a maybe
a sort of tendency to think, Oh,
(09:11):
we've run a workshop. We've kind
of done that. We've ticked the
box, but that really is just one
tiny piece of the bigger
picture, and really so important
to to be training line managers,
right? They're the ones that are
going to be having these
difficult conversations. So they
need the education and
awareness. And if you're just
running a not just if you're
(09:33):
running an education and
awareness, a lunch and learn,
how likely is it that those line
managers are going to self
select to come to that? In my
experience, not very so we, you
know, we really need to be
signposting them to the you know
why this is important? You know,
I know companies won't
necessarily want to mandate
training on a particular topic
(09:55):
for line managers, but it is so
important is going to affect 51%
of the workforce. Dollars, and
the other 49% is going to be
potentially in, you know,
impacting them indirectly, if
they they're sort of struggling
with somebody at home. And,
yeah, it really is about
normalizing the conversation.
And it's important that senior
(10:16):
stakeholders are involved in in
that normalizing, so we've got
that top down as well as bottom
up approach, obviously, kind of
looking at policies, and I think
we'll come back to that in a
bit. We've got quite a bit to
say on that. You know, depending
on the size and the resources
within the organization, maybe
they want some sort of
grassroots support groups and
(10:36):
advocates that that are going to
kind of help be part of that
bigger picture. And really just
getting it out there as part of
the culture that these are
things that we are not afraid
and squeamish to talk about. And
you know, sometimes it requires
a couple of brave individuals to
start that ball rolling, and
(10:58):
then, particularly if they're
sort of senior or influential
people within the organization,
there's that sort of, you know,
snowball effect of like, oh so
and so's talking about it. It's
okay. I can be open. There's a
lovely interview that I did with
a couple of the managing
directors at Accenture on my
podcast, which I forgot to
mention at the beginning. And so
(11:19):
the middling along podcast, and
they so Sarah Garton talks about
a sort of a menopause event that
Accenture were holding. And, you
know, prior to going to this
event, she'd been really, really
struggling with symptoms, not,
you know, not understanding that
this was perimenopause driven
underlying, you know, sort of
(11:41):
really raging, kind of imposter
feelings of, you know, I've been
put into this MD position. I'm
not, I'm not coping. I'm really
struggling. What am I going to
do? I'm going to get found out.
Went along to, you know, sort of
a menopause event, and kind of
had this light bulb moment,
stood up in the room. And I love
the way she tells us, burst into
tears in front of, you know,
(12:02):
hundreds, probably, of
colleagues more potentially more
junior and more senior than
herself. And you know, just the
way that she describes it of
kind of like the love in that
room coming back to her for
sharing and being vulnerable in
that moment. And now, you know,
she's very involved in their
kind of whole men are Warriors
Program. And you know, they've
got a lot of very senior sort of
sponsorship for that. But it,
(12:24):
you know, sometimes it, it takes
a few individuals to be quite
brave and open in terms of
sharing their experiences, and
that then allows other people to
come forward and be like, Oh,
it's okay. I can talk about
this. This is a place that is
kind of safe place for me to be
honest and open that I am
(12:45):
struggling.
Yes, totally. Oh my goodness,
I'm going to put the link to the
show notes in the show notes so
that people can have a listen
and be inspired for and we talk
about this all the time in other
areas of EDI, particularly in
closing the gender pay gap, for
me personally, is that it's such
a huge responsibility for people
(13:06):
who are there already in the
position of power to start
shedding those layers of
assimilation and being honest
about as many things as you
possibly can. So consider this
everybody's Call to Action
talking about the menopause in
the workplace, and it doesn't
have to be about bodily
functions. Doesn't have to be
about the biology of it. It can
(13:26):
be whatever angle people want to
take. You know it needs to feel
authentic to them, can't it?
Let's talk about your other
topic that you like to talk
about, which is so nicely put
it, and I hadn't heard it put
like this before, the midlife
collision. Let's talk about the
midlife collision and how it
disproportionately affects
females.
Yeah, well, I can't claim credit
(13:48):
for coming up with the term
midlife collision. It actually
comes from Dr Lucy Ryan, who has
written a fantastic book called
revolting women. Great title. I
wholeheartedly recommend again.
Lucy's been on the podcast. It's
another great episode. And, you
know, she talks about, sort of,
this confluence of circumstances
(14:09):
impacting women in midlife, this
midlife collision of which
possibly, not certainly, but
possibly menopause, maybe one
element. But for so many of us
at midlife, we're juggling
things like, you know, maybe
we've had children later in
life. So, you know, potentially,
our children may still need us
quite a lot, or even if they're,
you know, sort of teenagers or
(14:30):
going off to university, they
don't stop needing us. We're
dealing with elderly kind of
elder care. So sort of parents
that also, you know, really need
us. And quite often, quite you
know, that can be come at a real
kind of crunch point. We it's
not necessarily predictable,
right? We couldn't be navigating
divorce or relationship
breakdown, you know? We we
(14:52):
potentially have very stressful
careers. So we're looking
potentially at burnout. We're
looking at gendered ageism in
the workplace. Let's call. That
out. And, you know, that kind of
sits right alongside menopause,
you know, maybe a kind of a real
career inflection. A lot of us
getting into that sort of, you
know, 4950 51 we're taking a
good cold look at our careers.
(15:14):
Is this? Is this what lights me
up? Is this what I want to be
doing for the next 25 years?
We're working longer, and
actually, so, and I do have one
stat actually coming back to the
sort of, you know, the caring,
upward, caring, downward
responsibility. So in the UK,
one in five women over 55 is an
unpaid carer. Don't know how
(15:34):
many of them are technically in
the workforce, but a lot of them
will be, and will be, you know,
really juggling all of those
things. So sometimes, you know,
perimenopause, menopause comes
along, and it really is the kind
of the thing that tips somebody
over from just about coping with
all of those things to I'm not
coping that well. I need, I need
a bit of support. And the
(15:55):
midlife
collision can come earlier. It's
coming earlier and earlier I
went through the midlife
collision, not not not with
menopause, but with caring
upwards and downwards in my mid
30s, and having just had that,
and the the hormones that I was
experiencing is that I was also
(16:17):
pregnant with my second child,
and I felt like I was going to
lose a Plot. I absolutely felt
like I was going to lose a plot
because there's so much admin
involved in the caring upwards
bits that you don't think about,
and the emotional toil on you
and caring for not you know,
people who you can't tell what
to do. We talk
about the mental load a lot, but
(16:38):
actually, but, but, but a lot of
that tends to focus on sort of
parenting and caring for, you
know, our immediate families.
But, yeah, you're right, how
much? And so I wrote an
interesting blog post about this
on LinkedIn, actually, that went
viral, and I called it dad min.
So, yeah, my parents are still
both with me, but, you know,
have pretty complex needs, and
(17:00):
I'm lucky that they are a short,
you know, drive away from me. I
know people who have, you know,
been working a full time job,
jumped in the car every day
after work and driven, you know,
60 miles to be with a parent or
parents who need them, driven
home again, you know, tucked
their child into bed, maybe late
at night, probably did a bit
(17:20):
more emailing, and then kind of
get up and do it all over again
the next day. And how long, you
know? How long can you do that
until there's nothing left to
give?
Gosh, it is absolutely something
that I think we need to talk
about a lot more, because unless
you've experienced it, like the
emotional toil on you, but also
it's a totally different thing
caring for someone older than
(17:41):
you than caring for someone
younger than you, because you
can't. You can't
send them to the step as much as
you might like, yeah. You
can't order them to put their
shoes on eat those vegetables,
and the admin that comes along
with it, like the paperwork and
the just stuff. It's just, yeah,
I mean, I think that needs to be
talked about a lot more. So
let's say that you're a manager
(18:02):
then, and you're in the
workplace and you have a number
of people in your team, or your
peers or colleagues, or whatever
you whatever your situation, and
you want to start the
conversation about the midlife
collision or menopause in
particular. How do you recommend
managers go about doing that? So
first off, you know, you don't
need to know everything about a
topic to have a conversation
(18:23):
about it. You need to listen.
And that's, we know that's one
of the most important skills for
a line manager, right? Is
really, truly actively listening
to the person sat in front of
you. One thing not to do is to
come out and say, Oh, are you
menopausal? Do you think you
might be menopausal? Please
don't do that. Okay, there could
be, as we've already discussed,
there could be any number of
other things going on. So we
(18:45):
want nice, open questions and a
safe space to talk, right? Don't
do it in the coffee room in
front you know, where somebody
else could be wandering in and
out. Get a nice, quiet one to
one. So I've noticed is x, y, z.
Is there anything you want to
talk about? No, are you? Are you
struggling with something? Don't
make assumptions, right?
Everybody's menopause experience
is different, and it's changing
(19:06):
all the time. I think people
don't understand that I could
have XYZ symptoms today, and
then they might not come back
for another couple of months. I
might sleep fine for a while,
and then I'll have a run of
insomnia for a week. So it's
constantly changing, and just
because you know your next door
neighbor sail through this
without a backward glance. Don't
assume that the person sitting
in front of you is doing the
(19:27):
same. Okay. We need to ask them
what is going on for them. Check
before you go into that meeting
what support your organization
offers. So before you have that
conversation, find out.
Hopefully your organization has,
you know, at least provided some
kind of education, awareness
training. You know, if there's
something that's recorded or
(19:47):
some resources that are
available on your intranet, go
and do a little bit of research.
You know, it won't take you too
long just kind of get familiar
with the list of potential
symptoms. You. We're not going
to have all of them. It's not,
you know, it's not bingo. You
don't win by taking off all 34
of them, or 48 depending on
which sort of source you look
(20:08):
at. But you know, at least kind
of have some understanding of
what might be going on for that
person and keep communicating
with them after that meeting.
You know, if you you're
discussing what kind of
adjustments they might need, you
know, you might need to go away,
talk to HR, talk to your
occupational health, get a risk
assessment done, find out what
the Employee Assistance Program
offers and come back to that
(20:29):
person. But also, as I've said,
you know, those symptoms can
change over time, and somebody
might be going through this for,
you know, four years, seven
years, maybe it's only six
months. It's completely
different for everybody. So keep
having those conversations and
those check ins and sort of, you
know, how we how are we doing?
Have things changed for you?
Have you found the adjustments
that we put in place helpful? So
(20:50):
it's not again, it's not a one
and done. It's a continuous
conversation to make sure that
that person's got the support
that they need. And
then for for people in HR then.
So a lot of our listeners are HR
professionals. So what? What
would you recommend for HR? So
in terms of both at a policy
level and a procedure level, but
(21:10):
also on a personal level, in
terms of actually supporting
human beings? One
place, good place to start, if
you you know, if you haven't
done anything yet, apart from
getting in touch with me,
because I obviously happy to
help. But something you can do
that won't cost you a penny is
to go and download BS, 30416,
from the BSI. It's their
(21:32):
menstruation, menstrual health
and menopause in the workplace.
Guidance. It's about 40 pages
long, so it's fairly accessible,
but it's incredibly thorough,
and there's lots of practical
help in there covers both
menstrual health and menopause
in the workplace. So definitely
recommend, you know, having a
read through that and then sort
of absorbing some of that,
(21:53):
because it's got loads of really
great actionable tips. That's a
great place to start. You don't
necessarily need to have a
menopause policy. And in some I
think there are some schools of
thought that actually maybe
that's not that helpful, kind of
singling it out for some
specific attention. There are
(22:13):
some organizations out there who
have put their menopause
policies, sort of open source on
the internet for other people to
have a look at. Channel Four is
one of those. I think Co Op is
another one. So you can go and
have a look at what other people
are doing, but really make sure
that you're thinking about how
this intersects with existing
(22:34):
policy. So your sickness and
absence management policies,
your DNI policy, your flexible
work policy, you know, if you're
if you are going to write a
standalone policy, make sure
that it's cross referencing all
of those things, and you've got
a consistent approach throughout
make sure that you're using
inclusive language, right? It's
not just cis women that
experience menopause. Really,
really important. I know that a
(22:55):
lot of trans, non binary, non
gender conforming community feel
very left out of discussions.
And so, you know, it doesn't
take much to change, you know,
things like women to people
that's pretty straightforward,
and people might find that
difficult. But you know, we want
everyone to feel included in
this conversation, and really
(23:16):
make sure that you're you're
including things like early
menopause, premature ovarian
insufficiency, surgical
menopause, medical menopause.
And even so far as thinking
about how this might impact on
neurodivergent employees
differently, because we know
that, you know, it can have
quite a big impact on people
living with sort of ADHD autism,
(23:37):
for example. And there's a lot
more research going on,
thankfully in those areas to
kind of really dig into that.
And you can also think about
things like workplace inclusion
passports. So I know that those
are used in for other use cases,
but they can be really useful
for menopause again, and it's
something else that isn't
necessarily drawing attention to
(23:58):
menopause as a problem, but
like, Who is this person, and
how can we best support them
here? And that, you know, if
they're moving from one team to
another, that passport can move
with them, and that will be
really helpful for them in
having that conversation, say,
with a new line manager.
Amazing. I love all that advice.
It's actually not as complicated
as I think people have it in
(24:19):
their minds. I think people
think of menopause, if they
haven't experienced it
personally, as a big monolith,
and they're like, oh my gosh,
where do I even go? And I think
people's brains often go to
biology first, and they go to
biological symptoms, and it puts
them off and makes them feel
squeamish and ever so British
about it.
Just be empathetic as a human
(24:39):
right, talk to the other humans
sitting in front of you. What
were they struggling with? What
would they find supportive? How
can you help them to feel that
they can be at their best at
work? And it's no different from
having a conversation in many
ways, about other things that
somebody might be struggling
with. It's just getting past
that kind of sense of, oh, do.
(25:00):
You know, I don't, I don't feel
comfortable talking about this
as a topic. You know, some
people don't want to talk about
it in in a workplace setting,
and that's fine, too. That is so
right.
And actually, if you think about
it in more and we talk about
this a lot in terms of
disability, but if you talk
about what you're experiencing
and the barriers that you're
(25:20):
experiencing and the needs that
you have now, it doesn't
actually need to be put down to
anything in particular. So we we
say this with diagnoses all the
time. Don't lead with diagnosis
first, because it all these
assumptions drop into people's
minds straight away, if you talk
about it in terms of your needs
and your access and what will
make the world play workplace
(25:41):
better for you, things like the
inclusion passport. You know,
you don't need to say because of
this diagnosis or because of
this particular thing. I need
this. You could just go in with
the I need this, like, this is
what. This is what I need. Now,
doesn't necessarily you don't
even need say the word
menopause. Nobody needs to say
the word but I think we should,
(26:01):
I think
we should normalize, be talking
about it.
That's it. But not, not for
everybody. Perhaps Wonderful.
Thank you so much. I think this
has been a wonderful
conversation. I think you've
given so many little tidbits of
really accessible things that
people can do right now. So if
people want to, when people want
to get in touch with people more
(26:23):
and to have more Emma in their
lives. I would personally highly
recommend doing one of Emma's
workshops. She's brilliant. Her
sister in law is absolutely
fantastic. And when they keep
she's so
good at explaining the kind of
the complexities and making it
really simple and relatable.
Yes, that the session that you
did for us for cultural calendar
club there asked the doctor
(26:43):
anything about menopause, was
one of the most attended
sessions we've ever had. And the
14 pages of questions that came
in before the session
unbelievable. It just showed us
desperate for
good, solid, evidence based
information. You know, this is
one of the things that slightly
troubles me now that we're
talking about it more. You know,
especially on social media, you
go on there, it's absolutely
(27:04):
overwhelming. You know, how, how
do you get hold of really good,
solid, evidence based
information that you can trust?
And we know, unfortunately, that
the sort of wait times to see a
menopause specialist are are
long, but people are desperate
for information, really a lot of
the time. So if,
if you want to put on something
(27:26):
for your employees, I would
highly recommend Emma. It's it's
an absolutely brilliant session.
All of our sessions are so
wonderful. If people, when
people want to get in touch with
you, how should they do
that? So you can find me at
managing the menopause.com,
contact form on there. So yeah,
please do get in touch. I'm very
happy, you know, to have a kind
of introductory chat, half an
(27:48):
hour chat with anybody. There's
no obligations. I'm not I'm not
into hard sell. And if you want
to find the podcast, it's called
middling along, so you can
search for that on your platform
of choice, or go to middling
along.com and find us there.
Brilliant,
and we'll put it in the show
notes as well. Thank you so
much. So much, Emma. This has
been fantastic.
Well, thank you for letting me
talk about my favorite subject.
(28:15):
You.
Hi. I'm Kat Wildman, and welcome
(00:01):
to the powered by diversity
podcast today, we're joined by
Emma, and we're talking all
about menopause at work. How is
menopause a workplace issue? I
mean, Emma's answer was one of
the best I've ever heard. It was
more like, how is it not a
workplace issue? We talk all
about the midlife collision and
how it disproportionately
affects women. We talk about how
we can approach menopause as
managers and as HR and how it
(00:22):
may not even involve a policy at
all. I hope you enjoy the
episode. Hi Emma. Thank you so
much for joining us today. And
today we're going to be talking
about your specialist topic,
which is all about menopause. So
let's start with an
introduction. Do you want to
introduce yourself to our
listeners?
(00:43):
So I'm Emma Thomas. I'm the
founder of managing the
menopause, and I work alongside
my wonderful sister in law, Dr
Beth Thomas, who is a menopause
specialist and a GP and has
decades working in women's
health. So between us, we
deliver all kinds of workplace
training and education, so lunch
(01:03):
and learns and ask the doctor,
sessions line manager training.
We've also working on some self
directed online training for
line managers. So that is a bit
about us. About me. I live in
beautiful Oxford. I've got two
kids. I'm married, no Pete.
There's enough going on.
Oh my gosh, wonderful. Thank you
(01:25):
so much. That's a lovely
introduction. I love it. I love
a bit of personal touch, also
the flavor, yeah, so let's get
straight into it. There's so
much talk about menopause at the
moment, and one of the things I
think that still needs to click
with people is how menopause is
a workplace issue. So I think
there's still a lot of people
who look at women's health
(01:46):
topics like menopause, periods,
etc, and they're like, do we
need to talk about this in work?
So what would you say to that?
Absolutely, so just kind of give
you a little bit of scene
setting first, in terms of some
sort of facts and figures. So
there's around 13 million
menopause are women in the UK,
and 80% of them are in the
workplace. We've got some really
(02:08):
good research that's come out
over the last couple of years.
So the first one Fauci society
is menopause in the workplace,
report, which came out in 2022
and according to that, 77% of
women experienced one or more
symptoms they describe as very
difficult. 44% said that their
ability to work had been
affected, and one in 10 who'd
been employed during that sort
(02:29):
of transition had left work due
to their symptoms and not being
sort of supported in the
workplace. Around another 14%
had reduced their hours, so
maybe gone part time, and
another 8% hadn't applied for
promotion. So, you know,
thinking about this in terms of
progressing women and those
(02:49):
assigned female at birth through
the workforce, it can, you know,
it can really, really impact
people. Another survey by the
Chartered Institute personal and
develop personnel, sorry and
development, last year, found
that three quarters of women
experiencing menopause symptoms
were struggling to cope at work.
So very, very similar stats to
the Fauci society one. And then
(03:10):
more recently, we've got the
Deloitte Women at Work report,
which has just come out, and
that was not just looking at
menopause, but also sort of, you
know, female health more widely,
including sort of menstruation.
And in that one 40% of women who
experience high levels of pain
due to either menstruation or
(03:30):
men are poor said that they work
through it. And that's compared
to 20% last year. So that's a
huge jump up. So that's double,
and only 19% unfortunately, who
were experiencing challenges
related to their menopause said
that they were supported by
their employers after disclosing
that as a reason for, you know,
maybe taking time off work
again, that's really dropped
(03:51):
away from 30% feeling that they
were supported last year. So
something going on there, we're,
you know, we're talking about it
more, but we're not getting it
right in the workplace, and
people not feeling comfortable
discussing this with their
manager. So again, we're up to
14% now feeling uncomfortable,
compared with 10% last year, and
(04:12):
people feeling that, you know,
actually disclosing it can
really negatively impact their
career. One more report, I
think, I promise. So there's a
BSIs lifting the second glass
ceiling report, which again came
out last year, and that one
actually looked across 5000
women four continents. 52% said
that they would be uncomfortable
raising menstruation and
(04:33):
menopause issues with a male
manager. And actually seven 17%
said the same about a female
manager. But as we would expect,
that's a lot lower. So the
conversation is definitely, you
know, changing. It's becoming
more mainstream, and definitely
the UK is leading the charge on
this, with other countries sort
of looking to us to see what
we're doing, and the sort of
(04:55):
recognition of a need for more
menopause friendly workplaces
and. And policies, but you know,
there is still a lot of taboo
and shame, uh, surrounding this
and stigma. So I think it's
really, really important to
remember that, you know, it's
only about one in four that will
experience these sort of really
debilitating symptoms, and
(05:17):
actually a lot of people will
get through it with, you know,
very little impact and not much
need for support at all. One in
four is still a high proportion.
And if those people are
struggling at work, they feel
that they can't talk about it.
They feel that if they do talk
about it, there's not going to
be the support there, and it's
going to disadvantage them. Then
that's a real issue. So I like
(05:39):
to think now I kind of come from
a change back, change management
backgrounds, I think, well,
what's in it for me that wi, if
wi, IFM, what's in it for me as
an employer. So let's have a
sort of unpack some of that. So,
you know, really getting to
grips with this an issue can
improve sort of productivity,
well being within the workforce,
engagement and retention. So,
(06:00):
you know, we really want to
retain, especially those people
that they might be at senior
levels of an organization. You
know, if they walk out the door,
we're losing organizational
knowledge. We're losing, you
know, very often, those are the
people who are deeply embedded
in employee resource groups, in
mentoring within organizations.
You know, they're they're
getting stuff done, reducing
absenteeism and sort of the
(06:21):
costs associated with rehiring
and retraining people who leave
with a lot of experience, and it
has a real impact on gender
diversity at senior levels of an
organization. So you know, in
all of those discussions that
we're having around sort of
gender pay gap, are you thinking
about menopause as one of the,
you know, critical strands
(06:42):
within that possibly not Wow.
I mean, like, how can anyone not
be focusing on menopause? When
you look at those stats, it's
just overwhelmingly in support
of we need to do something. But
there's so many people who are
still so uncomfortable talking
about menopause. I had a
conversation, just to throw this
in there, had a conversation the
other day with a man, and he was
(07:04):
saying, you know, he was, he was
giving an analogy about how we
talk about a different area of
EDI. He was saying, you know, I
had this woman, and she was
talking to me about menopause in
great detail, and it was just
too much. It was just too much
for me. And I just was like, but
you talk to your team the way
that you just talked to me about
menopause, because that you're
going to make them run a mile.
How do we balance that? How do
(07:25):
we get the conversation about
menopause away from the oh,
that's just awkward, because I
am still from the generation
where my mom did not talk to me
about any of this stuff. My
grandma certainly didn't. And so
my mum was from the from the
baby boomer generation. I'm in
my 40s, and so she definitely
(07:47):
would not have been comfortable
talking about any of this stuff.
And would have just been like,
Oh my gosh. First question, do
you think there's going to be
generational shift? And second
question, how can we make people
less uncomfortable about talking
about this sort of stuff? Yeah,
great
question. I mean, let's take the
generational shift one first.
Yes, absolutely right. Even
elder Millennials so called are
kind of entering into
(08:08):
perimenopause. Now, you know, if
you think the Gen X's are
starting to make a lot of noise
about this, wait till the
millennials get hold of it. So,
you know, it absolutely is
something that workplaces need
to get ahead of where we've got
these sort of multi generational
workforces now, with maybe five
generations in the workplace.
Yeah, we know that those sort of
(08:30):
younger generations coming
through place so much value on
the sort of the well being the
DNI in the workplaces that they
are looking to and you know, if
they go somewhere and find that
there are empty promises, they
will vote with their feet, and
they will go somewhere that is
actually delivering on what they
say they want to. And then in
(08:50):
terms of how, how we normalize
the conversation, so, so many
things that we can do, I think,
you know, raising awareness is,
is one of the really important
one, so education and awareness.
So running, you know, running
workshops of the kind that we
deliver, I think there's a maybe
a sort of tendency to think, Oh,
(09:11):
we've run a workshop. We've kind
of done that. We've ticked the
box, but that really is just one
tiny piece of the bigger
picture, and really so important
to to be training line managers,
right? They're the ones that are
going to be having these
difficult conversations. So they
need the education and
awareness. And if you're just
running a not just if you're
(09:33):
running an education and
awareness, a lunch and learn,
how likely is it that those line
managers are going to self
select to come to that? In my
experience, not very so we, you
know, we really need to be
signposting them to the you know
why this is important? You know,
I know companies won't
necessarily want to mandate
training on a particular topic
(09:55):
for line managers, but it is so
important is going to affect 51%
of the workforce. Dollars, and
the other 49% is going to be
potentially in, you know,
impacting them indirectly, if
they they're sort of struggling
with somebody at home. And,
yeah, it really is about
normalizing the conversation.
And it's important that senior
(10:16):
stakeholders are involved in in
that normalizing, so we've got
that top down as well as bottom
up approach, obviously, kind of
looking at policies, and I think
we'll come back to that in a
bit. We've got quite a bit to
say on that. You know, depending
on the size and the resources
within the organization, maybe
they want some sort of
grassroots support groups and
(10:36):
advocates that that are going to
kind of help be part of that
bigger picture. And really just
getting it out there as part of
the culture that these are
things that we are not afraid
and squeamish to talk about. And
you know, sometimes it requires
a couple of brave individuals to
start that ball rolling, and
(10:58):
then, particularly if they're
sort of senior or influential
people within the organization,
there's that sort of, you know,
snowball effect of like, oh so
and so's talking about it. It's
okay. I can be open. There's a
lovely interview that I did with
a couple of the managing
directors at Accenture on my
podcast, which I forgot to
mention at the beginning. And so
(11:19):
the middling along podcast, and
they so Sarah Garton talks about
a sort of a menopause event that
Accenture were holding. And, you
know, prior to going to this
event, she'd been really, really
struggling with symptoms, not,
you know, not understanding that
this was perimenopause driven
underlying, you know, sort of
(11:41):
really raging, kind of imposter
feelings of, you know, I've been
put into this MD position. I'm
not, I'm not coping. I'm really
struggling. What am I going to
do? I'm going to get found out.
Went along to, you know, sort of
a menopause event, and kind of
had this light bulb moment,
stood up in the room. And I love
the way she tells us, burst into
tears in front of, you know,
(12:02):
hundreds, probably, of
colleagues more potentially more
junior and more senior than
herself. And you know, just the
way that she describes it of
kind of like the love in that
room coming back to her for
sharing and being vulnerable in
that moment. And now, you know,
she's very involved in their
kind of whole men are Warriors
Program. And you know, they've
got a lot of very senior sort of
sponsorship for that. But it,
(12:24):
you know, sometimes it, it takes
a few individuals to be quite
brave and open in terms of
sharing their experiences, and
that then allows other people to
come forward and be like, Oh,
it's okay. I can talk about
this. This is a place that is
kind of safe place for me to be
honest and open that I am
(12:45):
struggling.
Yes, totally. Oh my goodness,
I'm going to put the link to the
show notes in the show notes so
that people can have a listen
and be inspired for and we talk
about this all the time in other
areas of EDI, particularly in
closing the gender pay gap, for
me personally, is that it's such
a huge responsibility for people
(13:06):
who are there already in the
position of power to start
shedding those layers of
assimilation and being honest
about as many things as you
possibly can. So consider this
everybody's Call to Action
talking about the menopause in
the workplace, and it doesn't
have to be about bodily
functions. Doesn't have to be
about the biology of it. It can
(13:26):
be whatever angle people want to
take. You know it needs to feel
authentic to them, can't it?
Let's talk about your other
topic that you like to talk
about, which is so nicely put
it, and I hadn't heard it put
like this before, the midlife
collision. Let's talk about the
midlife collision and how it
disproportionately affects
females.
Yeah, well, I can't claim credit
(13:48):
for coming up with the term
midlife collision. It actually
comes from Dr Lucy Ryan, who has
written a fantastic book called
revolting women. Great title. I
wholeheartedly recommend again.
Lucy's been on the podcast. It's
another great episode. And, you
know, she talks about, sort of,
this confluence of circumstances
(14:09):
impacting women in midlife, this
midlife collision of which
possibly, not certainly, but
possibly menopause, maybe one
element. But for so many of us
at midlife, we're juggling
things like, you know, maybe
we've had children later in
life. So, you know, potentially,
our children may still need us
quite a lot, or even if they're,
you know, sort of teenagers or
(14:30):
going off to university, they
don't stop needing us. We're
dealing with elderly kind of
elder care. So sort of parents
that also, you know, really need
us. And quite often, quite you
know, that can be come at a real
kind of crunch point. We it's
not necessarily predictable,
right? We couldn't be navigating
divorce or relationship
breakdown, you know? We we
(14:52):
potentially have very stressful
careers. So we're looking
potentially at burnout. We're
looking at gendered ageism in
the workplace. Let's call. That
out. And, you know, that kind of
sits right alongside menopause,
you know, maybe a kind of a real
career inflection. A lot of us
getting into that sort of, you
know, 4950 51 we're taking a
good cold look at our careers.
(15:14):
Is this? Is this what lights me
up? Is this what I want to be
doing for the next 25 years?
We're working longer, and
actually, so, and I do have one
stat actually coming back to the
sort of, you know, the caring,
upward, caring, downward
responsibility. So in the UK,
one in five women over 55 is an
unpaid carer. Don't know how
(15:34):
many of them are technically in
the workforce, but a lot of them
will be, and will be, you know,
really juggling all of those
things. So sometimes, you know,
perimenopause, menopause comes
along, and it really is the kind
of the thing that tips somebody
over from just about coping with
all of those things to I'm not
coping that well. I need, I need
a bit of support. And the
(15:55):
midlife
collision can come earlier. It's
coming earlier and earlier I
went through the midlife
collision, not not not with
menopause, but with caring
upwards and downwards in my mid
30s, and having just had that,
and the the hormones that I was
experiencing is that I was also
(16:17):
pregnant with my second child,
and I felt like I was going to
lose a Plot. I absolutely felt
like I was going to lose a plot
because there's so much admin
involved in the caring upwards
bits that you don't think about,
and the emotional toil on you
and caring for not you know,
people who you can't tell what
to do. We talk
about the mental load a lot, but
(16:38):
actually, but, but, but a lot of
that tends to focus on sort of
parenting and caring for, you
know, our immediate families.
But, yeah, you're right, how
much? And so I wrote an
interesting blog post about this
on LinkedIn, actually, that went
viral, and I called it dad min.
So, yeah, my parents are still
both with me, but, you know,
have pretty complex needs, and
(17:00):
I'm lucky that they are a short,
you know, drive away from me. I
know people who have, you know,
been working a full time job,
jumped in the car every day
after work and driven, you know,
60 miles to be with a parent or
parents who need them, driven
home again, you know, tucked
their child into bed, maybe late
at night, probably did a bit
(17:20):
more emailing, and then kind of
get up and do it all over again
the next day. And how long, you
know? How long can you do that
until there's nothing left to
give?
Gosh, it is absolutely something
that I think we need to talk
about a lot more, because unless
you've experienced it, like the
emotional toil on you, but also
it's a totally different thing
caring for someone older than
(17:41):
you than caring for someone
younger than you, because you
can't. You can't
send them to the step as much as
you might like, yeah. You
can't order them to put their
shoes on eat those vegetables,
and the admin that comes along
with it, like the paperwork and
the just stuff. It's just, yeah,
I mean, I think that needs to be
talked about a lot more. So
let's say that you're a manager
(18:02):
then, and you're in the
workplace and you have a number
of people in your team, or your
peers or colleagues, or whatever
you whatever your situation, and
you want to start the
conversation about the midlife
collision or menopause in
particular. How do you recommend
managers go about doing that? So
first off, you know, you don't
need to know everything about a
topic to have a conversation
(18:23):
about it. You need to listen.
And that's, we know that's one
of the most important skills for
a line manager, right? Is
really, truly actively listening
to the person sat in front of
you. One thing not to do is to
come out and say, Oh, are you
menopausal? Do you think you
might be menopausal? Please
don't do that. Okay, there could
be, as we've already discussed,
there could be any number of
other things going on. So we
(18:45):
want nice, open questions and a
safe space to talk, right? Don't
do it in the coffee room in
front you know, where somebody
else could be wandering in and
out. Get a nice, quiet one to
one. So I've noticed is x, y, z.
Is there anything you want to
talk about? No, are you? Are you
struggling with something? Don't
make assumptions, right?
Everybody's menopause experience
is different, and it's changing
(19:06):
all the time. I think people
don't understand that I could
have XYZ symptoms today, and
then they might not come back
for another couple of months. I
might sleep fine for a while,
and then I'll have a run of
insomnia for a week. So it's
constantly changing, and just
because you know your next door
neighbor sail through this
without a backward glance. Don't
assume that the person sitting
in front of you is doing the
(19:27):
same. Okay. We need to ask them
what is going on for them. Check
before you go into that meeting
what support your organization
offers. So before you have that
conversation, find out.
Hopefully your organization has,
you know, at least provided some
kind of education, awareness
training. You know, if there's
something that's recorded or
(19:47):
some resources that are
available on your intranet, go
and do a little bit of research.
You know, it won't take you too
long just kind of get familiar
with the list of potential
symptoms. You. We're not going
to have all of them. It's not,
you know, it's not bingo. You
don't win by taking off all 34
of them, or 48 depending on
which sort of source you look
(20:08):
at. But you know, at least kind
of have some understanding of
what might be going on for that
person and keep communicating
with them after that meeting.
You know, if you you're
discussing what kind of
adjustments they might need, you
know, you might need to go away,
talk to HR, talk to your
occupational health, get a risk
assessment done, find out what
the Employee Assistance Program
offers and come back to that
(20:29):
person. But also, as I've said,
you know, those symptoms can
change over time, and somebody
might be going through this for,
you know, four years, seven
years, maybe it's only six
months. It's completely
different for everybody. So keep
having those conversations and
those check ins and sort of, you
know, how we how are we doing?
Have things changed for you?
Have you found the adjustments
that we put in place helpful? So
(20:50):
it's not again, it's not a one
and done. It's a continuous
conversation to make sure that
that person's got the support
that they need. And
then for for people in HR then.
So a lot of our listeners are HR
professionals. So what? What
would you recommend for HR? So
in terms of both at a policy
level and a procedure level, but
(21:10):
also on a personal level, in
terms of actually supporting
human beings? One
place, good place to start, if
you you know, if you haven't
done anything yet, apart from
getting in touch with me,
because I obviously happy to
help. But something you can do
that won't cost you a penny is
to go and download BS, 30416,
from the BSI. It's their
(21:32):
menstruation, menstrual health
and menopause in the workplace.
Guidance. It's about 40 pages
long, so it's fairly accessible,
but it's incredibly thorough,
and there's lots of practical
help in there covers both
menstrual health and menopause
in the workplace. So definitely
recommend, you know, having a
read through that and then sort
of absorbing some of that,
(21:53):
because it's got loads of really
great actionable tips. That's a
great place to start. You don't
necessarily need to have a
menopause policy. And in some I
think there are some schools of
thought that actually maybe
that's not that helpful, kind of
singling it out for some
specific attention. There are
(22:13):
some organizations out there who
have put their menopause
policies, sort of open source on
the internet for other people to
have a look at. Channel Four is
one of those. I think Co Op is
another one. So you can go and
have a look at what other people
are doing, but really make sure
that you're thinking about how
this intersects with existing
(22:34):
policy. So your sickness and
absence management policies,
your DNI policy, your flexible
work policy, you know, if you're
if you are going to write a
standalone policy, make sure
that it's cross referencing all
of those things, and you've got
a consistent approach throughout
make sure that you're using
inclusive language, right? It's
not just cis women that
experience menopause. Really,
really important. I know that a
(22:55):
lot of trans, non binary, non
gender conforming community feel
very left out of discussions.
And so, you know, it doesn't
take much to change, you know,
things like women to people
that's pretty straightforward,
and people might find that
difficult. But you know, we want
everyone to feel included in
this conversation, and really
(23:16):
make sure that you're you're
including things like early
menopause, premature ovarian
insufficiency, surgical
menopause, medical menopause.
And even so far as thinking
about how this might impact on
neurodivergent employees
differently, because we know
that, you know, it can have
quite a big impact on people
living with sort of ADHD autism,
(23:37):
for example. And there's a lot
more research going on,
thankfully in those areas to
kind of really dig into that.
And you can also think about
things like workplace inclusion
passports. So I know that those
are used in for other use cases,
but they can be really useful
for menopause again, and it's
something else that isn't
necessarily drawing attention to
(23:58):
menopause as a problem, but
like, Who is this person, and
how can we best support them
here? And that, you know, if
they're moving from one team to
another, that passport can move
with them, and that will be
really helpful for them in
having that conversation, say,
with a new line manager.
Amazing. I love all that advice.
It's actually not as complicated
as I think people have it in
(24:19):
their minds. I think people
think of menopause, if they
haven't experienced it
personally, as a big monolith,
and they're like, oh my gosh,
where do I even go? And I think
people's brains often go to
biology first, and they go to
biological symptoms, and it puts
them off and makes them feel
squeamish and ever so British
about it.
Just be empathetic as a human
(24:39):
right, talk to the other humans
sitting in front of you. What
were they struggling with? What
would they find supportive? How
can you help them to feel that
they can be at their best at
work? And it's no different from
having a conversation in many
ways, about other things that
somebody might be struggling
with. It's just getting past
that kind of sense of, oh, do.
(25:00):
You know, I don't, I don't feel
comfortable talking about this
as a topic. You know, some
people don't want to talk about
it in in a workplace setting,
and that's fine, too. That is so
right.
And actually, if you think about
it in more and we talk about
this a lot in terms of
disability, but if you talk
about what you're experiencing
and the barriers that you're
(25:20):
experiencing and the needs that
you have now, it doesn't
actually need to be put down to
anything in particular. So we we
say this with diagnoses all the
time. Don't lead with diagnosis
first, because it all these
assumptions drop into people's
minds straight away, if you talk
about it in terms of your needs
and your access and what will
make the world play workplace
(25:41):
better for you, things like the
inclusion passport. You know,
you don't need to say because of
this diagnosis or because of
this particular thing. I need
this. You could just go in with
the I need this, like, this is
what. This is what I need. Now,
doesn't necessarily you don't
even need say the word
menopause. Nobody needs to say
the word but I think we should,
(26:01):
I think
we should normalize, be talking
about it.
That's it. But not, not for
everybody. Perhaps Wonderful.
Thank you so much. I think this
has been a wonderful
conversation. I think you've
given so many little tidbits of
really accessible things that
people can do right now. So if
people want to, when people want
to get in touch with people more
(26:23):
and to have more Emma in their
lives. I would personally highly
recommend doing one of Emma's
workshops. She's brilliant. Her
sister in law is absolutely
fantastic. And when they keep
she's so
good at explaining the kind of
the complexities and making it
really simple and relatable.
Yes, that the session that you
did for us for cultural calendar
club there asked the doctor
(26:43):
anything about menopause, was
one of the most attended
sessions we've ever had. And the
14 pages of questions that came
in before the session
unbelievable. It just showed us
desperate for
good, solid, evidence based
information. You know, this is
one of the things that slightly
troubles me now that we're
talking about it more. You know,
especially on social media, you
go on there, it's absolutely
(27:04):
overwhelming. You know, how, how
do you get hold of really good,
solid, evidence based
information that you can trust?
And we know, unfortunately, that
the sort of wait times to see a
menopause specialist are are
long, but people are desperate
for information, really a lot of
the time. So if,
if you want to put on something
(27:26):
for your employees, I would
highly recommend Emma. It's it's
an absolutely brilliant session.
All of our sessions are so
wonderful. If people, when
people want to get in touch with
you, how should they do
that? So you can find me at
managing the menopause.com,
contact form on there. So yeah,
please do get in touch. I'm very
happy, you know, to have a kind
of introductory chat, half an
(27:48):
hour chat with anybody. There's
no obligations. I'm not I'm not
into hard sell. And if you want
to find the podcast, it's called
middling along, so you can
search for that on your platform
of choice, or go to middling
along.com and find us there.
Brilliant,
and we'll put it in the show
notes as well. Thank you so
much. So much, Emma. This has
been fantastic.
Well, thank you for letting me
talk about my favorite subject.
(28:15):
You.
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