April 30, 2024 • 36 mins
Join us in our latest episode of the Roots Podcast where we sit down with Gillian Warson, a professional musician and part of the team of contributors who offer song suggestions for Roots' subscribers each week. We delve into the enduring relevance of hymns in worship, their historical and contemporary contexts. We discuss the thought process behind hymn selection, highlighting the relevance and power these age-old tunes continue to possess in a changing musical landscape.
Gillian champions the hymn's ability to embody and reflect societal changes, maintaining their adaptability and resilience over centuries. She also highlights the crucial role they play in making worship inclusive for children. Hear her address the misconception that children are more drawn to 'fast' or 'loud' songs and how incorporating hymns adds richness to their musical diet.
As Gillian shares her journey from a childhood interest in hymns to her current role promoting hymn-writing, we get an insight into the balance between honouring tradition, fostering inclusivity, and embracing change. We discuss the challenges of introducing new hymns into a church's musical repertoire and conclude on the note of unity in worship, as we strive to worship God through music.
Show notes:
Read Gillian's blog about how she chooses songs for Roots.
Dr Gillian Warson is the author of Using Vintage Hymns in Worship: Hidden Treasures Rediscovered and one of the editors of First Flight Feathers: The Best of Worship Live. She is also the administrator for the Pratt Green Trust whose aim is to further the cause of hymnody. Find out more about their current hymn competitions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music has the power to touch us deeply. It can evoke worship,
deep emotions, a sense of identity and belonging.
It can bring to mind memories of past encounters with God or in church.
And it also allows us to encounter God in our community in new ways.
This is what makes choosing songs and hymns for worship such an important,
(00:22):
powerful, potentially controversial issue. you.
As we joke, if you want to upset people in church, mess about with the songs we do in worship.
Each week, Roots offers you a selection of song suggestions,
from contemporary worship songs suggested alongside our children and youth resources,
to hymns and songs suggested alongside our adult knowledge content.
(00:45):
Today I'm speaking with Gillian Worson, who chooses the hymns and and songs
for our adult knowledge resource.
Today we discuss the power of hymns, old and new, her process of choosing these
songs, and what we can learn about choosing songs for worship.
Music.
She's a professional musician playing and teaching the viola,
as well as working for the Pratt Green Trust, an organisation that promotes
(01:07):
the development of hymnody.
Thanks for joining us for the Roots Podcast. Here we go.
Hello Jillian hello Melanie thanks for inviting me oh it's lovely to be here
we're in Oxfordshire in a beautiful house Stanton house where we've just had
a writing conference and we're here today to discuss church worship hymns songs
(01:30):
and all the interesting ins and outs around that,
this is one of your particular passions isn't it yes I love singing hymns I
love singing singing church music.
I love all forms of church music, from the oldest Hildegard of Bynum to the
newly freshly minted hymns and songs that might be ready for us to sing on Sunday.
(01:54):
Oh, it's fantastic. Your enthusiasm is very contagious. I guess I want to start us with,
Why hymns? Why still hymns? You don't hear them on the radio,
but a lot of churches sing hymns. So why hymns?
So hymns have been with us for a long, long time.
The Bible tells us to sing hymns in praise.
The early churches worked with hymns. Hymns have been the backbone of the Reformation.
(02:21):
Of changing hymns, of changing landscapes, of changing communities.
And I think generally, Generally hymns have a lot to tell us,
however old they are, whether they're 400 years old or whether they're a week
old, we can still learn plenty from hymns.
And let's talk a little bit about language. So what would you say is the difference
(02:44):
between a hymn or a song or some people would call them a chorus or a praise song?
There's lots of different music that we use in church. And can you just define
some of this language for us?
Well, I would define a hymn as being something in verses,
and maybe many verses, maybe as you get to the end of the service and you really
want to get home to your lunch and your eye casts down and there's still another
(03:08):
five solid verses to go and your heart sings.
But that gives you a chance as you're singing these longer hymns to work out things.
They go from a journey. There's often a journey involved in hymns.
A worship song might be something that's perhaps
a little bit shorter maybe with a
refrain or a chorus that's easy to join
(03:30):
into and then you have the much shorter
things worship songs things from
tese for example very simple to learn often
in different languages but easy to pick up and very lovely to accompany maybe
something you can put into an intercession many songs shorter songs come out
(03:50):
of the Iona community and we do see a lot of world music coming in to shorter songs so I think the.
Broadest way that I would define
is a song is something that's perhaps easier to learn with a chorus.
A hymn, while it might be easy to learn, is something that's got more intellectual
(04:13):
challenge in terms of working through an argument or working through a debate or a discussion,
often going from the beginning of a despair, for example, rather like Psalms,
and coming through through triumphant in glory at the end.
This is not exclusive.
And I'm sure all of your listeners will be phoning up and saying,
(04:34):
oh, but what about so-and-so and so-and-so?
But that's just the broad definition that I use.
Well, it makes a lot of sense. I never thought of a hymn as being a sort of an argument, as it were.
But it often is. It takes you on a journey of, it's like an essay. Yes.
Here's my premise, and here's all the different ways you can see this working
out. And here I am at the end. At the end, yes, exactly.
(04:56):
And often there's a lot of humility in a hymn.
So if you take a very old hymn, like When I Suffer in the Wondrous Cross,
you start off with this standing at the foot of the cross, and then you end
at the end with the whole world of nature mine.
And so it's expanded from you being
(05:17):
alone at the foot of the cross to then including the whole of the world.
And a A modern hymn writer, contemporary hymn writer, who does that a lot is Timothy Dudley Smith.
You look through his, he does a lot of opening up, opening out, opening out.
And praise often comes at the end.
It's fascinating. So on this theme of language, we talked about what we call
(05:41):
these songs or hymns that we're singing.
But as you said, quite a lot of these hymns that are familiar to us are rather
old. and perhaps the language that they use is perhaps archaic or old-fashioned
or maybe even has things that we're not as comfortable with now.
So there might be struggles with sort of disability theology or even just it's
(06:03):
always talking about men or it's always talking about agricultural themes and
we live in a city and we don't farm the fields.
So what do we do with language in hymns that feels old-fashioned?
It's a very difficult topic and one that I've written about,
as indeed have many other people written about, is.
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We need to keep responsive and we need to keep listening and we need to keep thinking.
I think also it's fair to say that we do need to give a bit of responsibility
and credit to our hymn book editors who do look at matters such as gender inclusivity,
imperialism, and the idea of Britannia rules the waves is clearly no longer acceptable in hymns.
(06:48):
And if we are using an older hymn book, which I know that many congregations
do, it is perhaps worth reading through to see whether you are happy singing all of these words.
The point about gender is very difficult.
And a lot of contemporary hymn writers, particularly people like Brian Wren
(07:09):
and Elizabeth Cosnett, rewrite a lot of their hymns in the light of their new theology.
Mythology but if you look at older hymns some
of them are there's one god it is
now but anyway it seems to imply that women are
chattels women are reduced to it'll come to me later on women are reduced to
(07:33):
to chattels and and and owned by their husbands well of course we're not going
to sing that now unfortunately that particular hymn is very beloved because
of the cultural importance importance and the language.
So we need to really look at these things.
Sometimes it's possible just simply to.
Not have the line. And the really prime example of that, of course,
(07:56):
is All Things Bright and Beautiful with the line, the rich man and his castle,
the poor man at his gate, which hasn't been in hymn books now for many, many years.
But then there are other things in All Things Bright and Beautiful that make
it difficult to sing, particularly things like Gathering the Rushes.
When was the last time you were out gathering the rushes? I don't even know
(08:17):
if I would know what that was when I find the rush.
But it's interesting, this idea about hymns singing to do with city and to do
with the countryside, because in fact, there are quite a few city-based hymns.
Fred Kahn writing back in the early 70s, late 60s, he was one of the first people
(08:38):
to mention Council Flat.
But of course, even Charles Wesley wrote about the effects of the mills.
And of course, we've got Jerusalem, we've got and did those feet in ancient
times. I will not cease till England's green and pleasant lands.
Okay, the language may be archaic, but the sentiment of getting rid of the misery
(09:04):
of industrial life is important.
Agriculture has changed a lot.
And every harvest, we have a harvest festival when people bring in their produce.
And they may be happy. some congregations may be happy to sing bringing in the
sheaves. But of course, we don't really bring in the sheaves anymore.
(09:27):
We bring in a few tins to give to the local food bank.
But there are hymns. There are some quite unusual children's hymns that do look
at agriculture in a different way.
But Fred Pratt Green's hymn...
For the fruits of his creation, that looks much more at the life post-industrial, really.
(09:52):
And I think, I don't know, maybe people really want to hold on to the idea that
there is a beauty in agriculture, so we can still plow the fields and scatter,
and we can still have a harvest home.
And maybe that's what people like. it's a common theme
in scripture yes i mean there's jesus often
(10:13):
talks about planting and watering and sowing the seeds and and even
if we are not farmers in our day by day most of us have
a garden or a window box where we plant a few seeds and trying to keep some
kitchen herbs alive for a few weeks and i think we understand that idea of growth
and nurture and seasons and it is throughout scripture so i'm not saying that
we shouldn't sing songs about agricultural but But sometimes these concepts
(10:36):
of, as you say, bringing in the sheaves,
there are foreign phrases for most of us, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't sing them.
They're part of our cultural identity and even identity as Christians.
Yeah, and also the idea of the
harvest, the workers, the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
Tune, that's all of the harvest hymns, almost without exception,
(11:01):
come back to the idea that the harvest is not only the harvest of the fields,
but the harvest of humanity in the service of God.
So I think that there is definitely plenty to be said, and plenty to be sung. No, that's really good.
One of the things you mentioned a moment ago was about children's hymns.
(11:21):
And I want to sort of pick your brains about how do we, in our corporate worship
together, we're singing together, how do we include children and young people in our songs?
Are there songs that feel inappropriate for children? Or do we just raise them
up to sing hymns alongside us? What do you think about that?
I think children enjoy singing older hymns much more than we think they do.
(11:47):
I think it's very easy to be very condescending when it comes to children's hymns.
And because we have sung, for example, Away in a Manger, we may have sung it
every Christmas for 60 years.
So we might think it's a very old hymn and it's a very old-fashioned hymn. Certainly it's old.
(12:09):
But these children may be singing it for the very first time.
And so, is it fair to deprive them of singing something that we did enjoy singing
when we were five as well?
So, I think that's one thing. Another thing is it's easy to think that just
because a hymn or a song is fast, children will like it.
(12:33):
Or because it's loud, children would like it.
And they don't always like singing loud, fast things.
One thing they certainly don't always like is actions.
And it's very easy to say, come up to the front and we'll do some actions.
No, no, no, no, let's not do that. I don't go to the front and sing action songs.
(12:53):
And I think that that's a really careful to keep things really quite quiet.
Children, particularly little children, they're quite frightened when you hear,
or startled, I should say, if you play loud music.
They don't always like it, it can be too loud for them. I think some of the
imagery in children's hymns can be quite facile these days.
(13:18):
But that's not to say that I would advocate going back to singing some of the
18th century hymns where it's all about be really, really good because you'll
certainly die and then what will happen to your soul. So I'm not advocating going back to that.
So once more, I think it's really looking and seeing what children you've got.
If you have a really thriving Sunday school, a really thriving youth church,
(13:42):
then I think it is worth hunting around. and there are some great examples of books.
Some of them are quite old now, really good songs for churches,
that's a good one, and also the kids' source books, but even go back,
Junior Praise, they've got lovely collections of songs.
And I don't think you should shy away from singing old words,
(14:05):
provided, going back to our early part in the conversation, that the sentiments
are something you would like to pass on.
If you're happy singing with it and it's your sentiment and it's something that
you're happy to sing with your heart, then you can pass it on to a tutor.
And I think it's all about creating a frame around these things,
(14:26):
contextualising, I think explaining things,
words. Quite often when you explain things to the children, there's plenty of
adults in the back going, oh, I'd always wondered about what that meant.
And, you know, we sing a worship song called The Lion and the Lamb.
And if you're brand new to church, you're like, who, what, what animals, what are we on about?
And why are we singing this? And so I think, you know, even just Christian language needs explaining.
(14:50):
And some hymns have Christian language and it's just a really good opportunity
to say, oh, in verse two, this comes up and this is what it refers to.
Can I give you a good example of that?
When I was very little, there's the line in the hymn, whose strong hands were
skilled at the plain and the lathe, laudable with hopefulness, laudable with joy.
And I remember saying to my mum, what does it mean, the plain and the lathe?
(15:13):
But of course, it was referring to Jesus' skill as a carpenter.
And my mum said, oh, that's because it shows that Jesus was a working man.
And I hadn't really thought about that.
My mum was not really particularly Christian, but she had just knew a lot about
language and knew a lot about words.
She knew I liked that hymn. So that's how she explained it.
(15:34):
And I always remember her saying that and always remember being grateful that
she explained Jesus as a working man.
So that's quite an old hymn now.
But it's still relevant and lovely for me to have that image of Jesus working.
Yeah and it does it just poetry and
music often allow you to see different aspects of god or
(15:56):
different aspects of faith that you wouldn't look at in
the same light that's the joy of poetry is it comes at you in
a different way and so these hymn writers are helping us to see jesus in different
lights yes and there's a lovely hymn by um cooper sometimes the light surprises
and it's such a beautiful hymn i try and choose that for roots at least once
(16:16):
in the in the series that that I'm doing.
It's so wonderful to have a light, the idea of a light surprising.
That's great. So what we haven't actually talked about is how did you get into hymns?
I've heard you mention that you were interested in them as a child,
but what's your history with sung worship, with church music and hymns?
(16:39):
Well, I was really lucky.
I sang in a beautiful church choir, obviously quite a formal,
it's a robed choir in an Anglican church in Nebworth in Hertfordshire,
lovely choir master Malcolm Hicks.
But although it was quite formal, the church was surprisingly forward-looking
and introduced very quickly 100 Hymns for Today, which was a supplement to Hymns Ancient and Modern.
(17:04):
So I was singing hymns by hymn writers who were then, this was back in the late
60s, early 70s, who were alive.
And that was a real revelation to think, oh, hymn writers are actually alive.
When I was at school, I went to a school that had a
lot of music we sang out of the faith folk
books don't know whether you know those faith folk and festivity
(17:27):
faith folk and charity of course the sydney carter ones
crow in the cradle and they were new they were
new then so that was very exciting and then i realized quite young that new
was was as good as old old is good but new is good too and i was lucky to be
(17:48):
introduced used to the first praise and worship books,
books like Sounds of Living Waters, Fresh Sounds,
lovely hymns and songs.
There was a wonderful music sort of happening, which was called Come Together.
And the Owens, Carol Owens and Jimmy Owens were the writers of that.
(18:08):
And it sort of toured the area.
And that had songs that we still sing now. So.
I was always singing up to the minute, as it were.
And so the praise and worship ones came on, the mission praise came in.
The first great Kendricks became very, very popular when I was having my own
children and then gradually just moved on with that.
(18:31):
So I was keeping the old, running along, enjoying seeing older hymns,
but loving singing new ones as well.
That's fantastic. Fantastic. So one of your roles for Roots is that you help
choose the hymns and songs that we suggest each week.
Can you tell us a bit of your process of how you choose them, why you choose them?
(18:52):
Well, it takes me a long time to choose them.
I do, I refer to, I start by looking at the themes.
So I look at the Bible passage, which is highlighted. It's often the gospel,
as you know, but not always so i will
look and i will see what comes out of that then
(19:12):
a tracey in the editor sends me a
list of other themes might be in so i'll have a
quick look through that and then i start the process of rooting through what
i can actually find and i look on a couple of i look through my hymn book collection
which as you can imagine it's vast a whole library of hymn books I also look on internet searches.
(19:37):
I use particularly HymnQuest, which has many, many hymns listed.
And also the benefit of looking on HymnQuest is it will tell you what hymn book
the text is in or the hymn is in. So I will know if it's available.
If it's not available in any published hymn books, then I'm reluctant to choose
(19:57):
it. I also look on a resource called Song Select, which lists many, many hymns.
There are some shortcomings to Song Select, and that is it does not have many
foreign language texts on it.
And I do like to choose some foreign language texts, particularly the short
(20:18):
ones, just to sort of ring the differences.
But there are other searches available. Singing the Faith's got a good source.
Jubilati's got a good source. praise has got a good source. So I look through
and I see what's going to be available.
Sometimes I'll go quite off the wall and think, oh, I really like that.
I'll maybe pick something that's like a protest song, Blowing in the Wind,
(20:40):
for example, and then I'll have to find a YouTube clip to put in.
So I try to look across the spectrum and I try to think to myself.
How many people will be able to access these? And one of the things that we've
talked about is choosing a really new hymn.
So if there's a theme that deals particularly maybe, for example,
(21:01):
with homelessness, with childlessness, with divorce, with separation.
There may be a brand new hymn about that.
If I want to choose that hymn, I will try
to make sure that I can find a tune that fits
it and that on a list such as
hymn quest or song select it will have a tune that
(21:22):
is well known so that that can be accessed easily
by a number of people and that's that's a really key thing of how do you introduce
new music without overwhelming your congregation we were joking earlier that
one of the quick ways to upset people is to change the music because music is
a is a way that we We express identity.
(21:43):
It goes straight to our heart. It bypasses our brains in some ways.
And we have strong, visceral, emotional reactions to songs, positive or negative.
You know, and so when we introduce new things, people can have strong reactions, very strong reactions.
And one of the difficulties is if you're a visiting preacher, like I am,
(22:06):
if you choose a hymn, but you use a different tune to the one that the established
congregation has got, then that can easily ruffle a few feathers.
Usually, I manage to talk down the situation or change the tune.
It is hard introducing new things.
(22:27):
There are several ways that I go about it. And one is I make sure that I play
the, I often have a dual role when I lead the music, when I'm at a church,
I lead the music and I take the whole service.
So I'm leaping backwards and forwards to pick up instruments.
But I play, if I want to do a new hymn, I'll play it several times before the service.
(22:50):
I'll sing it sometime during the service. And then perhaps at the end of the
sermon, I'll come back to it or sing it again at the end.
So people have got a feeling for
a new new hymn and quite often they do say to
them at the end i like that new hymn we'll use it again so
i think that's a plus for me there yeah so it's repetition and
(23:10):
allowing people to slowly it's it
sinks into our subconscious if you're playing it at the beginning doesn't it
yeah and i think also the other thing about being a worship leader
is the worship leader is not the enemy the worship
leader is there as an enabler and as an assister and I think it's really important
for worship leaders and ministerial teams to work together and it's quite easy
(23:35):
for either faction to be quite precious about what they want to achieve but in the end.
We all want to achieve the same thing we all want to
praise we all want to share the word
of god and we all all want to take that christian message out into our lives
and if we start bickering in church about what hymn we're going to sing what
tune we're going to say it's not a good no it's not is it it isn't but i do
(24:01):
think it comes back to that this is important it is evocative it is is powerful.
And worship is something we're all called to. And of course,
music, sung worship, is not the only way we worship.
I think you've got a fun story about that.
So one of the former archbishops of Canterbury, Archbishop Rowan Williams,
(24:24):
he went into church when he was in parish ministry.
And for one reason or another, his worship group were not available.
And so he He said, he was explaining this, and somebody went up to him and said,
oh, so we're not having worship today.
And of course, he had to point out to this congregation member that singing
(24:45):
is only one of all sorts of worship.
So, and I think it's really important to remember, that's another thing that
I try to bear in mind when I'm choosing the words. we may sing a song that takes
us way out of the pew beyond.
Beyond the church doors to take the message and say, what now?
(25:07):
And there's lots of clothes of worship, songs and hymns that you can take.
And you think, yes, I can sing that. I can sing that. That's how I can take the message out.
Well-known ones like You Shall Go Out With Joy, the lovely, lovely,
bright song to take out beyond the church doors.
And then there's Go Forth and Tell, and we have
(25:30):
a gospel to proclaim they're all songs that take
us beyond the church and so
so worship is it's for
our daily lives worship is for our daily lives
and and not just for some days no indeed i i
do love it when you know you catch your children humming along a little worship
song later even if they've not got all the words it's that it's it's embedded
(25:53):
in our psyche or driving along and just a hymn pops into mind and you end up
singing it in the week because it's It's that sense of it's coming back to you
and that commitment or that,
as you say, the essay I sort of sung in worship through this hymn,
or the familiarity of something from your childhood in church.
It comes again to you and you are in the presence of God singing on your own.
(26:14):
But there's also something about the togetherness that we have of corporate
singing and all of us together articulating this point of faith.
You can be doing everyday things like cycling, and a hymn will come into your mind.
I remember being out on my bike quite recently. There was a lovely fragrance
in the air, and that lovely old hymn went, it's that goodly fragrance flowing.
(26:36):
I think that was part of it, and then your heart starts to sing with it.
So there's all sorts of things, and sometimes you're just…,
It will just lift your spirits, as you say, if a song comes into your head.
Oh, I love that. It's beautiful.
So tell us more about Hymn Quest and the Pratt Green Trust.
(26:57):
You're involved with the Pratt Green Trust. Who are they? What is this?
And how do they support hymns? So the Pratt Green Trust, there's two things there.
The Pratt Green Trust is in its 40th anniversary year.
So it's a trust. And the funding for the trust comes from the royalties of the hymn writer,
Frey Pratt Green, who was a very influential hymn writer in the 60s,
(27:22):
and he had no children, no family.
So he generously gave all the royalties, which obviously keep on coming in,
to the furtherment of hymnody in its broadest sense.
So what the Trust does is it administers this estate to give funding for projects
(27:43):
to do with Himlady. So this could be anything.
It could be running a festival. So Children's Christian Arts Festival had some
funding from us. It could be for training church musicians.
So the Beresford Edmonds Cathedral and the RSCM have had more funding for more
formal projects to do with organ playing. And it could be to do with studies.
(28:05):
So a music minister might want to.
Prove their studies and gain
higher qualifications it might be towards that somebody
may want to publish a book which i did last year and
bring together some resources so give
funding for that so that there are lots of different
(28:26):
ways that you can apply to the practically in trust for funding him quest
is part of that legacy so we do fund him quest which is administered by the
publishing house house uh stain room bell um and that is one of the the most
lasting legacies on so him quest it is a.
(28:49):
Subscription service to a point but you can access it free you can look at look
at it free but you can't do all the downloading and printing off for free but
you can you can access and search it for free and as i said it's a really good
way of finding your full texts and what what him book they're in.
So one of the things that we're doing for the Prattman Trust is we're running
(29:11):
a hymn competition this year to celebrate.
We're going to do an academic seminar later on, and it's to do with making hymns,
both old historical hymns and new hymns, newly freshly minted hymns,
hymns that aren't even written yet,
will come in and we want to make them excellent.
(29:32):
We've got some wonderful trustees. Most of our trustees are hymn writers.
We've got Andrew Andrew Pratt is a hymn writer, Janet Wooten,
and of course Bernadette Farrell, who's a really fantastic hymn writer,
is one of our writers and our trustees.
So it's a really exciting trust to be part of, and I praise the Lord daily that
(29:53):
I've managed to find a job that is exciting.
Brought on love. Yeah, that's a real gift, isn't it? To be able to do what you
love and serve God doing it. Yes, amen. May we all find things like that.
Amazing. And I can see in your hands, you've got some books.
Have you got some recommendations on books that people can read and explore
(30:14):
to grow in their appreciation of hymns or in their way that they lead worship?
Well, the best book that I've read lately about hymns and establishing a church
music group and church music in a church that did not have any is a hymn book
called The Resounding Body.
(30:35):
And it's by Andy Thomas and it's published by Sacristy Press.
And the subtitle is Building Christlike Church Communities Through Music.
And it's a lovely exploration of building
music from the ground up this was a church that had
nothing and then went on to have wonderful flourishing relationships not only
(30:57):
through music where it started with music then went on to be very across the
across the whole of the the worshiping body so that's a really good book nice
and easy to read and then i have two books by my own good self.
One is called Using Vintage Hymns in Worship, and the title is Hidden Treasures
(31:18):
Rediscovered for Today's Church.
And although it's got vintage hymns in the title, it's not really about vintage
hymns. It's about hymns change and how we can enjoy old things
texts, but freshen them up mainly by changing the language, changing the tune.
(31:38):
It's about different trends in hymn writing and by looking at all the things
that are happening in our church music.
And the last book I've got here is called First Flight Feathers.
Which is a lovely title, although difficult to say.
And it's called First Flight Feathers, The Best of Worship Live.
And it's an edited selection of texts
(32:02):
which I edited with my friend and colleague Janet
Wooten and it's a compilation
of items from Worship Live which
was a publication that ceased to exist about
10 years ago but the much of the material
was so good and so lovely that we decided that
we would put this together so all three of these
(32:23):
are published by Sacristi Press and are available through
their website so tell me more about first
fight flight feathers you it is difficult to say
i hear what you mean is it is it hymn lyrics or
is it articles about hymns or is it about worship readings about it
is a collection of hymn lyrics some
with original tunes some not and but
(32:45):
it's got a lot of editorial stuff so it tells
a little story about most of the texts and
it's incredible incredible about the community
the community that came to build this this selection so there's some people
that wrote the the tune and then somebody put some words to go with the tune
or somebody wrote some words and then somebody put a tune with it so it's about
(33:09):
the community of him writing and the acting of offering these this um.
Sort of raw material of hymns, offering them to congregations.
Some of them were sung in all sorts of different places, small churches, big churches.
Some of them are competition winners.
(33:30):
And there's some lovely, lovely imagery in it.
And all of them, as I say, have got a little tiny story with them.
So they've all got something to offer. I think they're they're lovely.
I love a story about how a song was written. I think I did an MBA in the music
industry, music business.
And one of the things they talked about was that the way that you sell music
(33:52):
is not just by producing a beautiful song,
but that there's the story behind the song, which is why we love these programs
where we watch pop stars become pop stars because we're on the journey with
them and there's a bit of story and it sells music.
But I think also for worship music to know
the story behind the poetry to know the story behind the
composer or the author it's it's you've gone on their journey of worship with
(34:15):
them and it invites us in and i just think this really precious to be able to
hear that yeah and i think i think that's true and and also another thing about
first flight feathers is it's got hymns by all sorts of different people I mean,
it just dropped out open here at number 83,
which is a song that was written in a harvest.
(34:36):
Interesting, because we talked about that. A harvest festival at a school.
And it talks all about the things that we love, like raspberries.
But then it goes on about how we've got to grow it ourselves and nurture it ourselves.
So it's a lovely story that children have written.
And there's a couple of texts about more unusual people in the Bible,
(35:02):
people that don't get much of a look in on the Bible, like a sin we praise for Hebrew midwives,
all sorts of different songs.
So I think it's a lovely song.
Collection to look at look at things
afresh look at something new think about a
new way of doing things so i would look at
(35:25):
it thank you obviously your song
choices each week in roots magazine is such a
an aid to worship leaders around the country being able
to filter through as you say the thousands and thousands of possible hymns to
a smaller selection that is that
is chosen to match the the lectionary readings and the
themes that we've gone for but also i just think through this conversation
(35:47):
that the provocation to to marry the old
and the new and to to take what
we've we've inherited but also to make sure it still resonates and make sure
the language still resonates and i do think there is an identity that is formed
in the songs that we sing it's really really key yeah thank you so much for
sharing your wisdom thank you we hope you enjoyed this episode of of the Roots for Churches podcast.
(36:12):
Discover all our resources to support you in preaching, worship,
youth, children, and intergenerational ministry on our website, rootsforchurch.org.
Music.
Music has the power to touch us deeply. It can evoke worship,
deep emotions, a sense of identity and belonging.
It can bring to mind memories of past encounters with God or in church.
And it also allows us to encounter God in our community in new ways.
This is what makes choosing songs and hymns for worship such an important,
(00:22):
powerful, potentially controversial issue. you.
As we joke, if you want to upset people in church, mess about with the songs we do in worship.
Each week, Roots offers you a selection of song suggestions,
from contemporary worship songs suggested alongside our children and youth resources,
to hymns and songs suggested alongside our adult knowledge content.
(00:45):
Today I'm speaking with Gillian Worson, who chooses the hymns and and songs
for our adult knowledge resource.
Today we discuss the power of hymns, old and new, her process of choosing these
songs, and what we can learn about choosing songs for worship.
Music.
She's a professional musician playing and teaching the viola,
as well as working for the Pratt Green Trust, an organisation that promotes
(01:07):
the development of hymnody.
Thanks for joining us for the Roots Podcast. Here we go.
Hello Jillian hello Melanie thanks for inviting me oh it's lovely to be here
we're in Oxfordshire in a beautiful house Stanton house where we've just had
a writing conference and we're here today to discuss church worship hymns songs
(01:30):
and all the interesting ins and outs around that,
this is one of your particular passions isn't it yes I love singing hymns I
love singing singing church music.
I love all forms of church music, from the oldest Hildegard of Bynum to the
newly freshly minted hymns and songs that might be ready for us to sing on Sunday.
(01:54):
Oh, it's fantastic. Your enthusiasm is very contagious. I guess I want to start us with,
Why hymns? Why still hymns? You don't hear them on the radio,
but a lot of churches sing hymns. So why hymns?
So hymns have been with us for a long, long time.
The Bible tells us to sing hymns in praise.
The early churches worked with hymns. Hymns have been the backbone of the Reformation.
(02:21):
Of changing hymns, of changing landscapes, of changing communities.
And I think generally, Generally hymns have a lot to tell us,
however old they are, whether they're 400 years old or whether they're a week
old, we can still learn plenty from hymns.
And let's talk a little bit about language. So what would you say is the difference
(02:44):
between a hymn or a song or some people would call them a chorus or a praise song?
There's lots of different music that we use in church. And can you just define
some of this language for us?
Well, I would define a hymn as being something in verses,
and maybe many verses, maybe as you get to the end of the service and you really
want to get home to your lunch and your eye casts down and there's still another
(03:08):
five solid verses to go and your heart sings.
But that gives you a chance as you're singing these longer hymns to work out things.
They go from a journey. There's often a journey involved in hymns.
A worship song might be something that's perhaps
a little bit shorter maybe with a
refrain or a chorus that's easy to join
(03:30):
into and then you have the much shorter
things worship songs things from
tese for example very simple to learn often
in different languages but easy to pick up and very lovely to accompany maybe
something you can put into an intercession many songs shorter songs come out
(03:50):
of the Iona community and we do see a lot of world music coming in to shorter songs so I think the.
Broadest way that I would define
is a song is something that's perhaps easier to learn with a chorus.
A hymn, while it might be easy to learn, is something that's got more intellectual
(04:13):
challenge in terms of working through an argument or working through a debate or a discussion,
often going from the beginning of a despair, for example, rather like Psalms,
and coming through through triumphant in glory at the end.
This is not exclusive.
And I'm sure all of your listeners will be phoning up and saying,
(04:34):
oh, but what about so-and-so and so-and-so?
But that's just the broad definition that I use.
Well, it makes a lot of sense. I never thought of a hymn as being a sort of an argument, as it were.
But it often is. It takes you on a journey of, it's like an essay. Yes.
Here's my premise, and here's all the different ways you can see this working
out. And here I am at the end. At the end, yes, exactly.
(04:56):
And often there's a lot of humility in a hymn.
So if you take a very old hymn, like When I Suffer in the Wondrous Cross,
you start off with this standing at the foot of the cross, and then you end
at the end with the whole world of nature mine.
And so it's expanded from you being
(05:17):
alone at the foot of the cross to then including the whole of the world.
And a A modern hymn writer, contemporary hymn writer, who does that a lot is Timothy Dudley Smith.
You look through his, he does a lot of opening up, opening out, opening out.
And praise often comes at the end.
It's fascinating. So on this theme of language, we talked about what we call
(05:41):
these songs or hymns that we're singing.
But as you said, quite a lot of these hymns that are familiar to us are rather
old. and perhaps the language that they use is perhaps archaic or old-fashioned
or maybe even has things that we're not as comfortable with now.
So there might be struggles with sort of disability theology or even just it's
(06:03):
always talking about men or it's always talking about agricultural themes and
we live in a city and we don't farm the fields.
So what do we do with language in hymns that feels old-fashioned?
It's a very difficult topic and one that I've written about,
as indeed have many other people written about, is.
(06:23):
We need to keep responsive and we need to keep listening and we need to keep thinking.
I think also it's fair to say that we do need to give a bit of responsibility
and credit to our hymn book editors who do look at matters such as gender inclusivity,
imperialism, and the idea of Britannia rules the waves is clearly no longer acceptable in hymns.
(06:48):
And if we are using an older hymn book, which I know that many congregations
do, it is perhaps worth reading through to see whether you are happy singing all of these words.
The point about gender is very difficult.
And a lot of contemporary hymn writers, particularly people like Brian Wren
(07:09):
and Elizabeth Cosnett, rewrite a lot of their hymns in the light of their new theology.
Mythology but if you look at older hymns some
of them are there's one god it is
now but anyway it seems to imply that women are
chattels women are reduced to it'll come to me later on women are reduced to
(07:33):
to chattels and and and owned by their husbands well of course we're not going
to sing that now unfortunately that particular hymn is very beloved because
of the cultural importance importance and the language.
So we need to really look at these things.
Sometimes it's possible just simply to.
Not have the line. And the really prime example of that, of course,
(07:56):
is All Things Bright and Beautiful with the line, the rich man and his castle,
the poor man at his gate, which hasn't been in hymn books now for many, many years.
But then there are other things in All Things Bright and Beautiful that make
it difficult to sing, particularly things like Gathering the Rushes.
When was the last time you were out gathering the rushes? I don't even know
(08:17):
if I would know what that was when I find the rush.
But it's interesting, this idea about hymns singing to do with city and to do
with the countryside, because in fact, there are quite a few city-based hymns.
Fred Kahn writing back in the early 70s, late 60s, he was one of the first people
(08:38):
to mention Council Flat.
But of course, even Charles Wesley wrote about the effects of the mills.
And of course, we've got Jerusalem, we've got and did those feet in ancient
times. I will not cease till England's green and pleasant lands.
Okay, the language may be archaic, but the sentiment of getting rid of the misery
(09:04):
of industrial life is important.
Agriculture has changed a lot.
And every harvest, we have a harvest festival when people bring in their produce.
And they may be happy. some congregations may be happy to sing bringing in the
sheaves. But of course, we don't really bring in the sheaves anymore.
(09:27):
We bring in a few tins to give to the local food bank.
But there are hymns. There are some quite unusual children's hymns that do look
at agriculture in a different way.
But Fred Pratt Green's hymn...
For the fruits of his creation, that looks much more at the life post-industrial, really.
(09:52):
And I think, I don't know, maybe people really want to hold on to the idea that
there is a beauty in agriculture, so we can still plow the fields and scatter,
and we can still have a harvest home.
And maybe that's what people like. it's a common theme
in scripture yes i mean there's jesus often
(10:13):
talks about planting and watering and sowing the seeds and and even
if we are not farmers in our day by day most of us have
a garden or a window box where we plant a few seeds and trying to keep some
kitchen herbs alive for a few weeks and i think we understand that idea of growth
and nurture and seasons and it is throughout scripture so i'm not saying that
we shouldn't sing songs about agricultural but But sometimes these concepts
(10:36):
of, as you say, bringing in the sheaves,
there are foreign phrases for most of us, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't sing them.
They're part of our cultural identity and even identity as Christians.
Yeah, and also the idea of the
harvest, the workers, the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.
Tune, that's all of the harvest hymns, almost without exception,
(11:01):
come back to the idea that the harvest is not only the harvest of the fields,
but the harvest of humanity in the service of God.
So I think that there is definitely plenty to be said, and plenty to be sung. No, that's really good.
One of the things you mentioned a moment ago was about children's hymns.
(11:21):
And I want to sort of pick your brains about how do we, in our corporate worship
together, we're singing together, how do we include children and young people in our songs?
Are there songs that feel inappropriate for children? Or do we just raise them
up to sing hymns alongside us? What do you think about that?
I think children enjoy singing older hymns much more than we think they do.
(11:47):
I think it's very easy to be very condescending when it comes to children's hymns.
And because we have sung, for example, Away in a Manger, we may have sung it
every Christmas for 60 years.
So we might think it's a very old hymn and it's a very old-fashioned hymn. Certainly it's old.
(12:09):
But these children may be singing it for the very first time.
And so, is it fair to deprive them of singing something that we did enjoy singing
when we were five as well?
So, I think that's one thing. Another thing is it's easy to think that just
because a hymn or a song is fast, children will like it.
(12:33):
Or because it's loud, children would like it.
And they don't always like singing loud, fast things.
One thing they certainly don't always like is actions.
And it's very easy to say, come up to the front and we'll do some actions.
No, no, no, no, let's not do that. I don't go to the front and sing action songs.
(12:53):
And I think that that's a really careful to keep things really quite quiet.
Children, particularly little children, they're quite frightened when you hear,
or startled, I should say, if you play loud music.
They don't always like it, it can be too loud for them. I think some of the
imagery in children's hymns can be quite facile these days.
(13:18):
But that's not to say that I would advocate going back to singing some of the
18th century hymns where it's all about be really, really good because you'll
certainly die and then what will happen to your soul. So I'm not advocating going back to that.
So once more, I think it's really looking and seeing what children you've got.
If you have a really thriving Sunday school, a really thriving youth church,
(13:42):
then I think it is worth hunting around. and there are some great examples of books.
Some of them are quite old now, really good songs for churches,
that's a good one, and also the kids' source books, but even go back,
Junior Praise, they've got lovely collections of songs.
And I don't think you should shy away from singing old words,
(14:05):
provided, going back to our early part in the conversation, that the sentiments
are something you would like to pass on.
If you're happy singing with it and it's your sentiment and it's something that
you're happy to sing with your heart, then you can pass it on to a tutor.
And I think it's all about creating a frame around these things,
(14:26):
contextualising, I think explaining things,
words. Quite often when you explain things to the children, there's plenty of
adults in the back going, oh, I'd always wondered about what that meant.
And, you know, we sing a worship song called The Lion and the Lamb.
And if you're brand new to church, you're like, who, what, what animals, what are we on about?
And why are we singing this? And so I think, you know, even just Christian language needs explaining.
(14:50):
And some hymns have Christian language and it's just a really good opportunity
to say, oh, in verse two, this comes up and this is what it refers to.
Can I give you a good example of that?
When I was very little, there's the line in the hymn, whose strong hands were
skilled at the plain and the lathe, laudable with hopefulness, laudable with joy.
And I remember saying to my mum, what does it mean, the plain and the lathe?
(15:13):
But of course, it was referring to Jesus' skill as a carpenter.
And my mum said, oh, that's because it shows that Jesus was a working man.
And I hadn't really thought about that.
My mum was not really particularly Christian, but she had just knew a lot about
language and knew a lot about words.
She knew I liked that hymn. So that's how she explained it.
(15:34):
And I always remember her saying that and always remember being grateful that
she explained Jesus as a working man.
So that's quite an old hymn now.
But it's still relevant and lovely for me to have that image of Jesus working.
Yeah and it does it just poetry and
music often allow you to see different aspects of god or
(15:56):
different aspects of faith that you wouldn't look at in
the same light that's the joy of poetry is it comes at you in
a different way and so these hymn writers are helping us to see jesus in different
lights yes and there's a lovely hymn by um cooper sometimes the light surprises
and it's such a beautiful hymn i try and choose that for roots at least once
(16:16):
in the in the series that that I'm doing.
It's so wonderful to have a light, the idea of a light surprising.
That's great. So what we haven't actually talked about is how did you get into hymns?
I've heard you mention that you were interested in them as a child,
but what's your history with sung worship, with church music and hymns?
(16:39):
Well, I was really lucky.
I sang in a beautiful church choir, obviously quite a formal,
it's a robed choir in an Anglican church in Nebworth in Hertfordshire,
lovely choir master Malcolm Hicks.
But although it was quite formal, the church was surprisingly forward-looking
and introduced very quickly 100 Hymns for Today, which was a supplement to Hymns Ancient and Modern.
(17:04):
So I was singing hymns by hymn writers who were then, this was back in the late
60s, early 70s, who were alive.
And that was a real revelation to think, oh, hymn writers are actually alive.
When I was at school, I went to a school that had a
lot of music we sang out of the faith folk
books don't know whether you know those faith folk and festivity
(17:27):
faith folk and charity of course the sydney carter ones
crow in the cradle and they were new they were
new then so that was very exciting and then i realized quite young that new
was was as good as old old is good but new is good too and i was lucky to be
(17:48):
introduced used to the first praise and worship books,
books like Sounds of Living Waters, Fresh Sounds,
lovely hymns and songs.
There was a wonderful music sort of happening, which was called Come Together.
And the Owens, Carol Owens and Jimmy Owens were the writers of that.
(18:08):
And it sort of toured the area.
And that had songs that we still sing now. So.
I was always singing up to the minute, as it were.
And so the praise and worship ones came on, the mission praise came in.
The first great Kendricks became very, very popular when I was having my own
children and then gradually just moved on with that.
(18:31):
So I was keeping the old, running along, enjoying seeing older hymns,
but loving singing new ones as well.
That's fantastic. Fantastic. So one of your roles for Roots is that you help
choose the hymns and songs that we suggest each week.
Can you tell us a bit of your process of how you choose them, why you choose them?
(18:52):
Well, it takes me a long time to choose them.
I do, I refer to, I start by looking at the themes.
So I look at the Bible passage, which is highlighted. It's often the gospel,
as you know, but not always so i will
look and i will see what comes out of that then
(19:12):
a tracey in the editor sends me a
list of other themes might be in so i'll have a
quick look through that and then i start the process of rooting through what
i can actually find and i look on a couple of i look through my hymn book collection
which as you can imagine it's vast a whole library of hymn books I also look on internet searches.
(19:37):
I use particularly HymnQuest, which has many, many hymns listed.
And also the benefit of looking on HymnQuest is it will tell you what hymn book
the text is in or the hymn is in. So I will know if it's available.
If it's not available in any published hymn books, then I'm reluctant to choose
(19:57):
it. I also look on a resource called Song Select, which lists many, many hymns.
There are some shortcomings to Song Select, and that is it does not have many
foreign language texts on it.
And I do like to choose some foreign language texts, particularly the short
(20:18):
ones, just to sort of ring the differences.
But there are other searches available. Singing the Faith's got a good source.
Jubilati's got a good source. praise has got a good source. So I look through
and I see what's going to be available.
Sometimes I'll go quite off the wall and think, oh, I really like that.
I'll maybe pick something that's like a protest song, Blowing in the Wind,
(20:40):
for example, and then I'll have to find a YouTube clip to put in.
So I try to look across the spectrum and I try to think to myself.
How many people will be able to access these? And one of the things that we've
talked about is choosing a really new hymn.
So if there's a theme that deals particularly maybe, for example,
(21:01):
with homelessness, with childlessness, with divorce, with separation.
There may be a brand new hymn about that.
If I want to choose that hymn, I will try
to make sure that I can find a tune that fits
it and that on a list such as
hymn quest or song select it will have a tune that
(21:22):
is well known so that that can be accessed easily
by a number of people and that's that's a really key thing of how do you introduce
new music without overwhelming your congregation we were joking earlier that
one of the quick ways to upset people is to change the music because music is
a is a way that we We express identity.
(21:43):
It goes straight to our heart. It bypasses our brains in some ways.
And we have strong, visceral, emotional reactions to songs, positive or negative.
You know, and so when we introduce new things, people can have strong reactions, very strong reactions.
And one of the difficulties is if you're a visiting preacher, like I am,
(22:06):
if you choose a hymn, but you use a different tune to the one that the established
congregation has got, then that can easily ruffle a few feathers.
Usually, I manage to talk down the situation or change the tune.
It is hard introducing new things.
(22:27):
There are several ways that I go about it. And one is I make sure that I play
the, I often have a dual role when I lead the music, when I'm at a church,
I lead the music and I take the whole service.
So I'm leaping backwards and forwards to pick up instruments.
But I play, if I want to do a new hymn, I'll play it several times before the service.
(22:50):
I'll sing it sometime during the service. And then perhaps at the end of the
sermon, I'll come back to it or sing it again at the end.
So people have got a feeling for
a new new hymn and quite often they do say to
them at the end i like that new hymn we'll use it again so
i think that's a plus for me there yeah so it's repetition and
(23:10):
allowing people to slowly it's it
sinks into our subconscious if you're playing it at the beginning doesn't it
yeah and i think also the other thing about being a worship leader
is the worship leader is not the enemy the worship
leader is there as an enabler and as an assister and I think it's really important
for worship leaders and ministerial teams to work together and it's quite easy
(23:35):
for either faction to be quite precious about what they want to achieve but in the end.
We all want to achieve the same thing we all want to
praise we all want to share the word
of god and we all all want to take that christian message out into our lives
and if we start bickering in church about what hymn we're going to sing what
tune we're going to say it's not a good no it's not is it it isn't but i do
(24:01):
think it comes back to that this is important it is evocative it is is powerful.
And worship is something we're all called to. And of course,
music, sung worship, is not the only way we worship.
I think you've got a fun story about that.
So one of the former archbishops of Canterbury, Archbishop Rowan Williams,
(24:24):
he went into church when he was in parish ministry.
And for one reason or another, his worship group were not available.
And so he He said, he was explaining this, and somebody went up to him and said,
oh, so we're not having worship today.
And of course, he had to point out to this congregation member that singing
(24:45):
is only one of all sorts of worship.
So, and I think it's really important to remember, that's another thing that
I try to bear in mind when I'm choosing the words. we may sing a song that takes
us way out of the pew beyond.
Beyond the church doors to take the message and say, what now?
(25:07):
And there's lots of clothes of worship, songs and hymns that you can take.
And you think, yes, I can sing that. I can sing that. That's how I can take the message out.
Well-known ones like You Shall Go Out With Joy, the lovely, lovely,
bright song to take out beyond the church doors.
And then there's Go Forth and Tell, and we have
(25:30):
a gospel to proclaim they're all songs that take
us beyond the church and so
so worship is it's for
our daily lives worship is for our daily lives
and and not just for some days no indeed i i
do love it when you know you catch your children humming along a little worship
song later even if they've not got all the words it's that it's it's embedded
(25:53):
in our psyche or driving along and just a hymn pops into mind and you end up
singing it in the week because it's It's that sense of it's coming back to you
and that commitment or that,
as you say, the essay I sort of sung in worship through this hymn,
or the familiarity of something from your childhood in church.
It comes again to you and you are in the presence of God singing on your own.
(26:14):
But there's also something about the togetherness that we have of corporate
singing and all of us together articulating this point of faith.
You can be doing everyday things like cycling, and a hymn will come into your mind.
I remember being out on my bike quite recently. There was a lovely fragrance
in the air, and that lovely old hymn went, it's that goodly fragrance flowing.
(26:36):
I think that was part of it, and then your heart starts to sing with it.
So there's all sorts of things, and sometimes you're just…,
It will just lift your spirits, as you say, if a song comes into your head.
Oh, I love that. It's beautiful.
So tell us more about Hymn Quest and the Pratt Green Trust.
(26:57):
You're involved with the Pratt Green Trust. Who are they? What is this?
And how do they support hymns? So the Pratt Green Trust, there's two things there.
The Pratt Green Trust is in its 40th anniversary year.
So it's a trust. And the funding for the trust comes from the royalties of the hymn writer,
Frey Pratt Green, who was a very influential hymn writer in the 60s,
(27:22):
and he had no children, no family.
So he generously gave all the royalties, which obviously keep on coming in,
to the furtherment of hymnody in its broadest sense.
So what the Trust does is it administers this estate to give funding for projects
(27:43):
to do with Himlady. So this could be anything.
It could be running a festival. So Children's Christian Arts Festival had some
funding from us. It could be for training church musicians.
So the Beresford Edmonds Cathedral and the RSCM have had more funding for more
formal projects to do with organ playing. And it could be to do with studies.
(28:05):
So a music minister might want to.
Prove their studies and gain
higher qualifications it might be towards that somebody
may want to publish a book which i did last year and
bring together some resources so give
funding for that so that there are lots of different
(28:26):
ways that you can apply to the practically in trust for funding him quest
is part of that legacy so we do fund him quest which is administered by the
publishing house house uh stain room bell um and that is one of the the most
lasting legacies on so him quest it is a.
(28:49):
Subscription service to a point but you can access it free you can look at look
at it free but you can't do all the downloading and printing off for free but
you can you can access and search it for free and as i said it's a really good
way of finding your full texts and what what him book they're in.
So one of the things that we're doing for the Prattman Trust is we're running
(29:11):
a hymn competition this year to celebrate.
We're going to do an academic seminar later on, and it's to do with making hymns,
both old historical hymns and new hymns, newly freshly minted hymns,
hymns that aren't even written yet,
will come in and we want to make them excellent.
(29:32):
We've got some wonderful trustees. Most of our trustees are hymn writers.
We've got Andrew Andrew Pratt is a hymn writer, Janet Wooten,
and of course Bernadette Farrell, who's a really fantastic hymn writer,
is one of our writers and our trustees.
So it's a really exciting trust to be part of, and I praise the Lord daily that
(29:53):
I've managed to find a job that is exciting.
Brought on love. Yeah, that's a real gift, isn't it? To be able to do what you
love and serve God doing it. Yes, amen. May we all find things like that.
Amazing. And I can see in your hands, you've got some books.
Have you got some recommendations on books that people can read and explore
(30:14):
to grow in their appreciation of hymns or in their way that they lead worship?
Well, the best book that I've read lately about hymns and establishing a church
music group and church music in a church that did not have any is a hymn book
called The Resounding Body.
(30:35):
And it's by Andy Thomas and it's published by Sacristy Press.
And the subtitle is Building Christlike Church Communities Through Music.
And it's a lovely exploration of building
music from the ground up this was a church that had
nothing and then went on to have wonderful flourishing relationships not only
(30:57):
through music where it started with music then went on to be very across the
across the whole of the the worshiping body so that's a really good book nice
and easy to read and then i have two books by my own good self.
One is called Using Vintage Hymns in Worship, and the title is Hidden Treasures
(31:18):
Rediscovered for Today's Church.
And although it's got vintage hymns in the title, it's not really about vintage
hymns. It's about hymns change and how we can enjoy old things
texts, but freshen them up mainly by changing the language, changing the tune.
(31:38):
It's about different trends in hymn writing and by looking at all the things
that are happening in our church music.
And the last book I've got here is called First Flight Feathers.
Which is a lovely title, although difficult to say.
And it's called First Flight Feathers, The Best of Worship Live.
And it's an edited selection of texts
(32:02):
which I edited with my friend and colleague Janet
Wooten and it's a compilation
of items from Worship Live which
was a publication that ceased to exist about
10 years ago but the much of the material
was so good and so lovely that we decided that
we would put this together so all three of these
(32:23):
are published by Sacristi Press and are available through
their website so tell me more about first
fight flight feathers you it is difficult to say
i hear what you mean is it is it hymn lyrics or
is it articles about hymns or is it about worship readings about it
is a collection of hymn lyrics some
with original tunes some not and but
(32:45):
it's got a lot of editorial stuff so it tells
a little story about most of the texts and
it's incredible incredible about the community
the community that came to build this this selection so there's some people
that wrote the the tune and then somebody put some words to go with the tune
or somebody wrote some words and then somebody put a tune with it so it's about
(33:09):
the community of him writing and the acting of offering these this um.
Sort of raw material of hymns, offering them to congregations.
Some of them were sung in all sorts of different places, small churches, big churches.
Some of them are competition winners.
(33:30):
And there's some lovely, lovely imagery in it.
And all of them, as I say, have got a little tiny story with them.
So they've all got something to offer. I think they're they're lovely.
I love a story about how a song was written. I think I did an MBA in the music
industry, music business.
And one of the things they talked about was that the way that you sell music
(33:52):
is not just by producing a beautiful song,
but that there's the story behind the song, which is why we love these programs
where we watch pop stars become pop stars because we're on the journey with
them and there's a bit of story and it sells music.
But I think also for worship music to know
the story behind the poetry to know the story behind the
composer or the author it's it's you've gone on their journey of worship with
(34:15):
them and it invites us in and i just think this really precious to be able to
hear that yeah and i think i think that's true and and also another thing about
first flight feathers is it's got hymns by all sorts of different people I mean,
it just dropped out open here at number 83,
which is a song that was written in a harvest.
(34:36):
Interesting, because we talked about that. A harvest festival at a school.
And it talks all about the things that we love, like raspberries.
But then it goes on about how we've got to grow it ourselves and nurture it ourselves.
So it's a lovely story that children have written.
And there's a couple of texts about more unusual people in the Bible,
(35:02):
people that don't get much of a look in on the Bible, like a sin we praise for Hebrew midwives,
all sorts of different songs.
So I think it's a lovely song.
Collection to look at look at things
afresh look at something new think about a
new way of doing things so i would look at
(35:25):
it thank you obviously your song
choices each week in roots magazine is such a
an aid to worship leaders around the country being able
to filter through as you say the thousands and thousands of possible hymns to
a smaller selection that is that
is chosen to match the the lectionary readings and the
themes that we've gone for but also i just think through this conversation
(35:47):
that the provocation to to marry the old
and the new and to to take what
we've we've inherited but also to make sure it still resonates and make sure
the language still resonates and i do think there is an identity that is formed
in the songs that we sing it's really really key yeah thank you so much for
sharing your wisdom thank you we hope you enjoyed this episode of of the Roots for Churches podcast.
(36:12):
Discover all our resources to support you in preaching, worship,
youth, children, and intergenerational ministry on our website, rootsforchurch.org.
Music.
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