Episode 5: Dementia friendly church, with Debbie Thrower

Debbie Thrower, the founder of Anna Chaplaincy, is an Anglican licensed lay minister and former broadcaster.  She shares statistics on the rising rate of dementia in an aging society, highlighting the urgent need for churches to consider how we care for those with dementia.

Anna Chaplaincy, which is part of BRF Ministries, came into existence out of Debbie's personal experience dealing with her parents' complicated health issues. She now trains a team of pastoral volunteers who are based around the country to help with the emotional and spiritual care of the elderly.

Debbie shares how dementia can be prevented, particularly through regular social interaction and social engagement that often happens at Church. We discuss the experiences of those living with dementia (and their partners), the potential disruptions to church activities, and the necessity of maintaining social connections . Debbie emphasizes that one's value as God's child remains intact regardless of the cognitive deterioration dementia brings. 

With training, awareness and care, churches can help mitigate the challenges dementia patients and their families face. We discuss the  benefits of all-age services and the power of inclusive worship. The ultimate goal is to establish a church environment that is welcoming and inclusive to everyone, prompting us to rethink our ways of dealing with dementia.

We touch on safeguarding vulnerable adults and the vision of Anna Chaplains to become a nationally recognized symbol for spiritual care for the elderly, like McMillan nurses. Find more resources and training on their website www.annachaplaincy.org.uk.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
According to the NHS, one in 11 people over the age of 65 are living with dementia.
Those figures rise to one in six people when it's over the age of 80.
According to Alzheimer's UK's 2024 statistics, over 850,000 people are living
with dementia, and those numbers are looking to rise to two million by the year 2050.

(00:26):
With an increasingly ageing demographic in our churches, those statistics are
likely to be real people in your church, bringing you face-to-face with the
challenges of supporting and bringing spiritual care to the elderly in your church and community.
Today I'm speaking with Debbie Thrower from Anna Chaplaincy.
Debbie is a former broadcaster.
You might recognise her from presenting Songs of Praise, BBC Radio 2,

(00:50):
Radio 4 and ITV's Meridian Tonight in the South. She's an Anglican licensed
lay minister and was the first Anna Chaplin for older people in Alton in 2010.
Debbie joined BRF Ministries in 2014 to develop a national network of chaplains
offering spiritual care in later life.
There are now 358 Anna Chaplins, plus many more volunteer Anna friends across the UK.

(01:15):
Anna Chaplins are named after the widow Anna, who appears with Simeon in Luke's
Gospel to bless the infant Jesus.
Both are good role models of faithful older people.
Anna chaplains are trained to offer spiritual care for older people,
supporting them emotionally and spiritually, whether they have strong,
little or no faith at all.

(01:37):
Today, we're talking to Debbie about how our churches can become dementia-friendly spaces.
Thanks for joining us on the Roots for Churches podcast. Here we go.
Welcome, Debbie. It's great to have you on the Roots for Churches podcast.
I'm delighted to talk to you.
Can you start us off by telling us a bit of your story? How did you end up interested

(01:58):
in this area of spiritual care for the elderly?
Well, it's as much a surprise to me as it is to anybody else, I can tell you.
But my parents, who have now sadly died,
they aren't around, but I think they'd be amazed that the ups and downs of their
own aging process have really led to the establishment of Anna Chaplaincy for older people.

(02:22):
I had a bit of a masterclass in the difficulties of growing old in the 21st
century because they encountered a lot of complex medical problems and psychological problems.
And when I first heard about a chaplaincy for older people, I thought,
first of all, oh, that's exactly what my mum and dad could have done with.

(02:43):
Why aren't these everywhere? So as soon as I saw a job advert for a chaplain
for older people, community-based, I thought, these really ought to be all over the country.
But I didn't think for a moment that I would have anything to do with it.
But having seen the job advert, this was in Alton in Hampshire,
not far from where I'm speaking to you now.

(03:04):
My home is in Hampshire between Winchester and Alton.
I applied. I was the only applicant for this role.
But the churches, the combination of both Anglicans and Methodists who were
offering this job opportunity are paid half a week post.
They hoped that whoever applied would really benefit.

(03:26):
Design and shape a community-based chaplaincy that would reach people who were
struggling to live independently, as well as those who were living in care homes
and in sheltered accommodation.
And so it was really up to me to decide how to spend my time,
where to put the emphases.
And I remember in the job interview, they said to me, we want you to spot the

(03:48):
gaps and to raise the whole standard of good practice in this area.
So no pressure, but it was a wonderful opportunity and I could see that actually
there are real difficulties in growing old in our society today.
We place so much emphasis on youth, beauty, productivity.
We understandably guard our autonomy very jealously as we grow older.

(04:13):
The last thing any of us want to be is a burden on anybody else.
But the actual fact is that we are sociable beings who are made to be interdependent.
And just as children need a lot of help and coaxing in their first formative
years, so as we grow more frail in our more vulnerable older age,

(04:33):
we need to be dependent upon others and interdependent.
But that's not to say that we don't have masses of life experience and wisdom
and opportunities to contribute if we'll only be given those opportunities.
And that, sadly, is what is very often lacking, I think, in our society.
The challenge of families living much further apart.

(04:54):
I know I live, my mum lives in America, you know, quite far.
And my husband's family, they live an hour and a half drive.
I think that must be common of many, many families.
So family's just not nearby. Of course it is.
And so how do you do that? There are some families who are very lucky that they
live next door to mum and dad and the extended family is close by.

(05:15):
And that's an enviable situation. It brings its own challenges, of course.
But by and large, many of us now have families.
Siblings, parents, grandparents, great-grandparents who lived some distance away.
And that does leave them in their older age quite vulnerable.
And yeah, it places a great stress too sometimes on younger family members who

(05:38):
have caring responsibilities.
Yeah, it's a different situation than it was, say, 50 or 100 years ago,
certainly. So tell me more about how Anna Chaptoncy developed.
You were working in Alton, you were pioneering this role. How did it grow into what it is today?
Well, because I'm a broadcaster, I spent 30-odd years working in print journalism,

(06:01):
then in radio and television.
So I've got these kind of, you know, such as they are, communication skills.
And I suppose it was natural that I would write about it, that I would end up
speaking about it, that people would invite me to a village hall and say,
please tell us, you know, what is this Anna Chaplaincy? What's distinctive about it? What's new?

(06:21):
How can we we developed something similar where we are.
So after three or four years, it became apparent to me that I needed a website,
I needed an infrastructure, I needed a team.
And as I said, right from the very start, I knew that this was a replicable model.
If we could develop something really that worked in Alton, and that developed

(06:41):
very quickly, it was clear to me that it would work in remote village locations,
in suburbs, or in inner cities.
And that's what's proved to be of the case. And now, of course,
we're part of BRF Ministries.
I knew they'd had a huge success with Messy Church, growing it so that it's
on every continent across the globe.
And I thought if we could get a fraction of the success of that for Anna Chaplaincy in the UK,

(07:05):
although we get a lot of inquiries from America, New Zealand,
Australia, at the moment, we only have the money to really develop it nationally
in the UK, but it's going very, very well indeed. Indeed.
So Anna Chaplaincy is sort of a hub for best practice, for training for those
who want to care for the elderly.

(07:26):
It absolutely is. What surprised me and my colleagues is that there is no shortage
of people who are developing, like me, a vocation to do this sort of work.
Some have been youth and children's workers years ago and now really want to
be working at the other end of the age spectrum with older people.
We've got midwives who have had a caring profession in the health service and

(07:51):
now find in their retirement that this is exactly what they want to do.
They've got such good pastoral skills, such broad life experience that there
are transferable skills from many different careers.
So there are teachers, social workers, people who've worked in all sorts of
different health service roles who are finding a new lease of life,

(08:14):
often in their early retirement years when they've got bags of energy,
lots of desire to give back and to have meaning and purpose in their own lives.
So men as well as women can be Anna Chaplins.
And it's fascinating to see people who are physiotherapists and are Anna Chaplins
because they've got great people skills.
And being a good listener is the one real quality that you need in order to

(08:40):
be a successful Anna Chaplin. lots of other things as well, good emotional awareness,
spiritual intelligence.
We're all Christians, but we're, of course, talking to people of all faiths,
little faith, no faith at all.
And that's what makes it such an interesting and varied career for people. That's fantastic.
It's great to hear how just the seed of faith and a faithfulness to God has

(09:02):
grown into something that God is multiplying and using across the country.
Today, specifically, Specifically, we want to talk about dementia.
And I wondered if you could give us sort of a layman's terms definition.
What is dementia?
We have all these other terms that float around Alzheimer's,
you know, just forgetfulness in old age. What defines dementia?

(09:26):
Well, dementia is a general term, an umbrella term, if you like,
for many different conditions.
There are literally scores of different types of dementia.
But all of them have in common this sense of loss of memory,
very often a loss of capacity to make key decisions, a loss of spatial awareness.

(09:46):
So sometimes one of the first indications is getting lost and really not knowing where you are.
Now, this is not the same as occasionally losing your car keys or even,
dare I say it, going into a multi-storey car park and realizing you're on the
wrong floor, you're looking in the wrong place for your car.
Happens to us all. This is quite normal.
Happens to us all. But it's quite different when people are actually heading

(10:09):
towards a diagnosis of dementia.
Yes, it's about memory loss, but it varies from label to label. But you're quite right.
The most common and recognizable form of dementia is described as Alzheimer's
disease, named after Dr. Alzheimer.
So there are others, though, vascular dementia, Lewy body dementia, and so on.

(10:34):
And then there are conditions like CJD, mad cow disease, as the media dubs it,
where dementia is a feature of that disease, but it's much more complex than that. out.
Dementia is not a normal part of the aging process.
So many people think, you know, just forgetfulness happens to everybody.
We're all on a spectrum of forgetfulness. You know, many of us can remember

(10:58):
quite easily what we did in our childhood, but not necessarily when someone
says, what did you do at the weekend?
And your mind goes a bit blank. What did I do last weekend?
That's quite normal. What isn't normal is the kind of brain condition which
results in many people with dementia having what are known as plaques and tangles.
So they're actually kind of deposits on the neural circuitry in our brains,

(11:24):
which just stops those synapses firing in the way that they always used to.
And that can result in severe memory loss and, as I said, inability to to make
key decisions and also a sort of skewed visual perception.
We've heard sometimes that people go into churches and if there's a big black
mat, someone with dementia might perceive that black mat to be a hole that they're

(11:48):
about to step into, a void.
So one has to be very careful about designing features in our church buildings
and in public buildings generally so that they are dementia-friendly for people
and they're not going to be off-putting for people who are are suffering from
this kind of brain disease.
Is it preventable? I mean, the statistics seem like it's quite common,

(12:09):
but not everybody gets this.
No, not everybody gets it. And many people don't. So one shouldn't be too fearful
of it. But there are risk factors.
Cardiovascular disease, heart disease is one of the big ones.
Being obese is another considerable risk factor.
It's interesting that education, those who have a very low level of education

(12:32):
who've never really the ability to pay attention well seem to succumb to dementia
more easily than others.
It's shown some quite interesting research in a book that I've just finished
reading actually called Dodging Dementia, talking about the many risk factors,
has said that a reasonably good level of education is quite a protective factor

(12:55):
in not developing dementia because the ability to pay attention actually is very key in all of this.
But also, you know, not abusing alcohol, not taking too many either illegal
drugs or indeed prescribed medical drugs.
Sometimes people are taking such a cocktail of different things that they have
side effects and interreactions,

(13:16):
which can be harmful and they can trick people into dementia in a way that perhaps
if they weren't taking so many medicines that conflict would not be the case.
It does seem that societally then there will be pockets where there is more
dementia, which may be linked to people's economic and social experience.
And so you may have communities and churches where there is a lot more dementia

(13:39):
than you would expect in sort of a general demographic.
That might well be the case. And even in people who don't get to church,
there might be loneliness and social isolation, which certainly contributes.
It's this lack of stimulus that I was talking about. But if we live in communities
where we're regularly in conversation with people, we belong to different groups and societies,

(14:04):
we've got leisure interests that involve us in relating regularly with other
people, All of that is going to keep the brain circuitry working well.
And where that's not happening, then there is a risk that overeating can happen, depression can kick in.
If you are that awful term, a shut-in, you've probably heard that term where

(14:25):
somebody closes the front door after going shopping and they know that they
won't be seeing another human being for another week or more in some cases.
And in some dreadful situations, people die and nobody knows for months,
even sometimes years later, that a body is there.
Those are the really tragic cases, but that's the worst case scenario.

(14:47):
But for all of us, it's important as we age to keep connected with other people
because it's good for our mental health, our physical health and our general well-being.
And our spiritual health, I would argue as well.
Of course, of course. And that's why it's so sad that sometimes when people
develop dementia and they maybe have a spouse or a close relative who looks after them,

(15:11):
being a church member may have been incredibly important to them throughout their lives.
And yet sometimes we inadvertently place barriers in the way of those people
still continuing to come to services, enjoying services,
enjoying the fellowship, enjoying the coffee time afterwards,
because it's not so easy sometimes when people's behavior is erratic.

(15:34):
We may have a service at the wrong time of day.
It's very difficult to get someone up and washed and dressed and travel to church
in order for a 9.30 service, which is my standard time in the village where I live, for example.
That would be a real stretch for someone looking after someone with advanced dementia.

(15:55):
So we've sort of talked about what is dementia,
but how does a person with dementia feel I think we we talked a little bit earlier
about the sort of challenge of your identity of of you know the the fear around
losing will I know who I am how is the challenge for the person who's suffering from it?

(16:17):
Well, who am I, if I don't have my life story to hand, able to tell someone
of what's made me the unique me that I am?
And I imagine that that causes a great deal of apprehension and fearfulness in people.
And I think there's a difference between identity and personhood.

(16:40):
Identity is our name, the sort of roles that we might have had in life,
a housewife or a teacher or the boss of a local company or whatever that is.
Once we develop quite advanced dementia and those titles are no longer ours, it's a valid question.
Who am I now that I'm not X, Y, or Z?

(17:03):
But the beauty of having a Christian faith is that our personhood remains intact.
It's not Not so much who we are, but whose we are. I think the Archbishop of
Canterbury has pointed that out.
Do you remember when his parentage was a subject of headline news?
And he said he'd come to terms with the fact that his identity and his personhood,

(17:25):
in fact, is safe with God because God never forgets who we are.
So it's not so much who we are, but whose we are. We're God's children and we're precious in his sight.
We're made in the image of God. And that's what has to be reinforced,
really, for someone who may be going through the trauma of beginning to realize
their own forgetfulness and then having a diagnosis with all the unfortunate

(17:49):
stigma that can be attached to any form of mental health problem that one may have during life.
And then, of course, there's the strain of seeing ones, if we're lucky enough
to have a primary carer who's a spouse or a close relative, then watching the
strain that is imposed on them, but then gradually losing that self-awareness.
But for the carer, it's a 24-hour job.

(18:13):
And the ways in which sometimes even your closest friends and associates may
not know quite how to speak to you any longer.
They don't know whether it's appropriate to invite you to the things that they
used to invite you to before.
They're rattled by behavioral changes that are unpredictable.
All these things can contribute to you being ostracized.

(18:36):
Even when people don't want to be doing it, it comes from a place of lack of
their own understanding of the disease and their ability to try and put themselves
in the shoes of the carer.
What would I like if I were in their place?
Well, I'd like you to continue to chat to me, to invite me, to include me,
to find me good company, and to bear with me, even though I may have extra caring

(19:02):
responsibilities that make me tired, more irritable, more short-tempered,
and I may withdraw.
And that might not be because I want not to speak to you anymore.
It's just because of the embarrassment and the sheer hard work work of committing
to being somewhere, going through with a social occasion and actually all the

(19:23):
time being on the key of Eve, trying to make sure that your loved one is all right.
Very hard to relax in those kinds of social situations, I would imagine.
And so that challenge for carers and for the person themselves brings us into
the challenge of dementia for church community.
Churches, although we want to be welcoming, I imagine are often not very welcoming

(19:46):
spaces for those with dementia.
Let's talk a bit more about that. How can we do better or what do we just need to acknowledge is hard?
Well, I talked a little bit about the design of the building,
just crossing the threshold.
Let's think about what the welcome mat, if you like, is like. But it goes beyond that.
I mean, it's lovely if hard pews occasionally can can also be supplemented by

(20:12):
soft areas where if one's attention span isn't what it was,
one can wander off and still have a squashy sofa or beanbags or comfy chairs
with arms so that if you are older you can heave yourself up if you've got mobility
issues as well as living with a mental disorder.
Lots and lots of things. Nice, bright pew cards on the pews.

(20:37):
You know what you're in for that morning, up on a screen, just talk through
what's going to be the kind of timetable.
And then the carer can also decide, you know what, there's 20 minutes there
or 10 minutes there when we can quickly move out and go to the loo, if there is a loo.
In older churches, not always the case.
Or I can just take some downtime and go to the back and I'm not going to miss out on too much.

(21:00):
When it comes to the sacraments, maybe taking communion,
might it be possible for the minister to come to us rather than me risk having
to walk all the way down the aisle with my spouse who may have dementia,
who might get distracted or their gait might just make people feel,
oh, is this person all right? Are they normal?

(21:22):
Something's going on. on. We are social beings, but we're also quite sort of wary of the other.
Anything that's out of the ordinary or unpredictable can make us kind of, you know, freeze.
And that's not what you want for your loved one. You want the whole process
to be enjoyable, a time of fellowship and worship.

(21:43):
And I think there are things we can do. First of all, in autumn,
for instance, we've had awareness sessions so that people understand what being
a dementia-friendly church is all about. That's for the wider congregation.
So get everyone in there and say, right, let's talk about how we're going to
be a dementia-friendly church.
And also really, really being friendly and smiley and genuinely kind to people,

(22:09):
because the emotional awareness remains, even when one's memory is is severely impaired.
We all know what it feels like, whether we're on the receiving end of somebody's
kindness or their irritability.
And that can really change the mood of a welcome or the time spent together in a congregation.

(22:29):
And also, when we've received kindness and.
Kind of glow that we all get stays with someone with dementia.
It can actually sort of echo on, resonate for minutes, if not hours later.
So a smile and a handshake and a warm welcome can really set someone up for the rest of the day.

(22:53):
And that's what we don't realize sometimes, just how key all of those sort of
social interactions are.
And I think the other lovely thing about worship is we use our whole bodies to worship.
So there's a kind of choreography in the liturgy. So we stand up,
we sit down, we kneel, we move about the church sometimes.
Sometimes there's a procession or there's a come up to light candles time,

(23:17):
or there's a sort of interactive nature of a service, particularly if it's an
all-age worship with some props, with bright colors, with visual cues and clues,
which help people to really keep their attention focused up front.
And that can help them to process. Quite simple themes often are the best that

(23:41):
work with people with dementia.
And they're the same sorts of things that work well with small children.
But the key difference is that you don't want to be in any way patronizing to
people, because there are moments of lucidity.
These are people who have that muscle memory, who have moments of really plugging
back into their memory of the times when they've received communion in the past

(24:04):
and how meaningful it's been for them.
But to remember that we worship with our whole bodies and to still enable people
to have the opportunity to use
their bodies in ways that will enhance the quality of worship. I think...
There's ways that we can enable people to regain their self-esteem or sense

(24:26):
of worth, as you were saying, our personhood doesn't go away,
and valuing the contribution of people who often may have had significant roles
in church and now are sitting in the pew feeling a bit like,
I wish I could contribute more.
Can you think of ways that people with dementia can contribute and not just
be sort of receivers always, but can give to others? Absolutely.

(24:48):
There's a wonderful booklet that Livability, the charity Livability,
produced. This is it, called Travelling Together.
And in it, there's a lovely anecdote, actually, of a daughter who goes to her father's care home.
And one of the local members of a church has come to lead a service.
And she tells the story that this chap up front is covered in tattoos.

(25:10):
He's a real bloke, but he's so sincere about what he's doing and so humble.
And her father really enjoyed this act of worship.
And then at the end, the leader at the front said to her father,
would you like to close in a prayer for us? And she thought,
oh, how's this going to go?
Is he going to choose the right words to say? Is this going to be an embarrassing moment?

(25:32):
And on the contrary, her father was absolutely so in the moment and enjoying
it so much that he wrapped up this period of worship with a lovely,
sincere prayer that everybody in the room gained so much from.
And, you know, I often think that the prayers of children and the prayers of
people who are deep into dementia can sometimes have a purity and a simplicity

(25:54):
about them that takes it like an arrow straight to God.
And that was certainly the case in this little anecdote that's included in that
booklet that really has absolutely everything you need in it if you're a church
that wants to be more inclusive and accessible for people with dementia and
a whole host of other conditions, of course, as well.
As you say, it's about, you know, including people in the liturgy.

(26:18):
It might be offering people to do readings or prayers, maybe in partnership
with somebody else to make sure it's manageable.
But including people, allowing people to talk amongst each other,
you know, in pews, they can turn to each other.
It's valuing the contribution of each person, not just sort of a productive upfront contribution.
And I think this is where a small church may have an advantage on a larger church,

(26:42):
where we can be more flexible.
We know people, we know their quirks and also their history,
and we can honour that as we introduce them.
We can create more understanding and appreciation, which you might not have
that same opportunity in a bigger church where you've just got so many more
people and so many more things to get through from the front.
Yes. And I think, you know, there's a tendency in the bigger churches to want

(27:05):
to have a very slick, smooth kind of liturgy that all works with everything
coming in at the right moment, all the pictures and then sound all coordinated brilliantly well.
And that is good because, you know, we are children now of the television age
and we are so used to well-produced videos and packages and so forth.

(27:26):
But you're right, there's a beauty in the very simple country churches too,
where somebody with dementia is well-known and understood, and everybody sort
of reacts in a way like a cocoon around them.
But offering people the opportunity to read the lesson certainly boosts self-esteem.
And what's the worst that can happen? Somebody may get the words a bit muddled,

(27:48):
they may have to stop and start again.
But I've certainly seen in a number of churches where I worship,
where somebody with dementia comes up with another person so that they can just
point to the right place if they get in a muddle.
But again, there's something so affecting about everybody.
All members of the body of Christ are involved and given equal value.

(28:10):
And that speaks so much to the way in which God, the way God looks at us is
the different way from the way we look at one another very often.
We are much more judgmental, I'm sure, than God is. And, you know,
there is so much we can learn from people with dementia, their ability to live
in the moment, for example, which is something that all meditation teaches you.

(28:33):
And many of us find it very difficult to sit still and just be in the present
moment, the gift of the present moment.
And yet somebody with dementia very often, that's all they've got.
Because the past is not the past as we would recognize it.
No concept really of what the future is. they're living like a small child deeply

(28:53):
and presently in the here and now it's beautiful.
It is a gift although we don't often think of
it as a gift but it is a gift and you need that reframing one of the things
we've highlighted a few times in this conversation is the power of sort of intergenerational
there is this idea that as we get very old we become like children again but
there is such power in the generations together not just the very young and

(29:16):
the very very old, but all the generations together.
I know Roots produces quite a lot of resources for intergenerational ministry,
but let's talk about how intergenerational ministry,
all age services really do help those people who are suffering with dementia,
but also their families and us to receive from them.
Well, one of the things that I did in Alton when I first started was to try

(29:39):
and get more visits to care homes from the primary schools.
And we did that in a very careful way. In other words, I would visit the group
of primary school children who had been designated as, you know,
your team's going to go in.
Often we'd link it to Mothering Sunday or a particular season in the church calendar.
And I would prepare those children. So with their teachers, I'd talk about what

(30:03):
a care home is like and what they were likely to expect when they got there,
the sorts of conditions that people would be in and what conversations they
could have, what conversation starters would work well.
So we prepared the way and then we made sure that those visits went well,
that there were volunteer classroom assistants on hand and the care assistants

(30:24):
all knew what was going on. But there was such a value in getting young and
old together in that way.
And the older people I know enjoyed it so much, not least because they would
stroke a beautiful, soft cheek or they'd look into the eyes of a young child
and say, my, the whites of your eyes are so fresh and new, they're almost blue.
You know, so there was a real sense of enjoyment of being in one another's company.

(30:48):
And likewise, for the youngsters, they were able to ask questions like,
you know, what was your childhood like?
What were your favorite toys when you were a little girl?
And some of the stories were great. You know, somebody would say,
oh, my favorite was a wooden top.
And, you know, they think, well, it's a wooden top and they describe it.
And for children who are so used to high tech, stimulating toys,

(31:11):
things that beep and buzz and move and fly and all these things,
they couldn't believe the simple toys that they had in those kind of wartime
days and sometimes just before the war.
And there's some people who were of a real age.
But in terms of church services, you're right. I think there's a real power
in getting young and old to worship together.

(31:34):
In autumn again, we were lucky at one stage to have for one year,
the oldest man in the world was living in autumn. Bob was 112 when he died.
And he got into the Guinness Book of Records as the oldest man in the world.
And Bob was regularly invited to local schools who were doing the Victorian age.

(31:58):
You know, he was the closest thing to a Victorian, a living,
breathing, walking, almost an Edwardian.
He was born in 1907, after all, Bob. Bob.
He had a new hip, incidentally, at the age of 106.
I knew him from 102 to 112. And it was during lockdown that I took his funeral service.
And everybody at the crematorium lined up to salute him as his body,

(32:24):
his cortege came through.
So it was remarkable to know Bob.
And I know that there were so many youngsters who, he was a celebrity,
of course, because he was the oldest, You know, that's almost,
you know, once you've got a label like that, if you're just a mere 98 or 100,
you know, people almost don't take any notice these days because it's become so commonplace.

(32:45):
But to have a worship service that works for somebody who's four and somebody
who's 104, now there's a real art to that.
And that's what your website is all about, all the different ideas that you
give for different age groups.
And when I look at the ones for all-age worship, they really do work well for

(33:06):
older people as well as for the youngsters who might be the priority.
Because when you see an all-age service advertised, you can guarantee that that's children-friendly.
What we tend to think less is it'll
work really well for older people with cognitive disabilities as well.
And something else we've done in autumn, but it happens right across the network

(33:28):
now because we share all these ideas in our training, is to have,
for example, a tea service, so an early to mid-afternoon service,
which works really well in terms of of being a good time of day when people
are going to be at their most alert.
You don't have to rush to get them up and dressed in the morning.
It's short, simple, familiar Bible stories, lots of singing because people love to sing.

(33:54):
And often singing and music draws on a part of the brain or parts of the brain
that are less damaged, injured by the brain disorders that we've been describing.
So there's a friendliness and people are intentionally crafting a service for
that age group and their carers.
And we also, in autumn, for example, have Forget-Me-Not services.

(34:17):
The flower of the Forget-Me-Not is the logo for the Alzheimer's Society.
It's long been associated with dementia.
And indeed, there's a book, Thinking of You, which is one of the books that that BRF has produced.
You can see the Forget Me Nots on the front cover there.
This one is by Joanna Collicutt, a resource for the spiritual care of people with dementia.

(34:38):
Again, chock full of ideas of ways in which one can incorporate and involve
people with dementia in worship and in community life generally.
So tell me more about this Forget Me Not service.
So it's mid-afternoon, yeah? Yeah, yeah.
We have experimented with times of day, but early to So, you know,
three o'clock is a great time and it can always end with tea,

(35:01):
which is a bonus, lots of cake and good time, social time together.
Again, we think about the choreography of it so that there's the ability to
bring someone up to the front and light a candle.
We might remember somebody, a loved one who's died, so to hold it around all
souls, all saints, all souls, that sort of time in the autumn,

(35:24):
a natural time of remembrance.
But also to think about people who feel that they've forgotten their own histories to some extent.
So it's honouring whatever memory remains, names
but also it's as if the community gathers around
such people and is holding the memories for
them so they're very affecting services and you

(35:44):
can incorporate say toddler groups in those services
as well so that they're an all-age experience and young
mums can be encouraged to bring their younger children to a service at that
time of day which works for for everybody and and we try and advertise them
so that they're across the different denominations so that that it really does
incorporate people in the town who don't necessarily think church is for them.

(36:08):
If it's a fundraising type service, they might welcome and support it and buy
cakes or produce at a stall afterwards, so that it becomes a proper community event.
And we've also held a now.
I show other people how to craft in celebration of age services.
Sometimes we call it the silver service, which I think is a nice way of describing it too.

(36:33):
And I remember once, the very first one we held in the altar,
it grew out of the group of people who we got to know at the lunch club that
was held at the Methodist Church.
And we also decided to hold this service at the Methodist Church.
And as people arrived, I was there greeting with others at the door.
And a lovely lady called Ruby came in with her friend, who was not a churchgoer.

(36:54):
And she looked up at the screen and saw, in celebration of age,
and she turned to her friend, I heard her say, huh, what's to celebrate?
And I thought, oh no, this is going to be an uphill struggle.
But it was very funny because we had a lovely service and a lovely tea.
And on the way out, Ruby shook my hand very genuinely. And she said to me,
do you know what? I leave here a foot taller. Paula.

(37:15):
And I just thought, thank heavens, job done.
Because what it had done for Ruby is got her across the threshold of a church
and she'd found that she'd really enjoyed it, that there were lots of people
who were in the same boat.
It's not much fun sometimes growing old in the 21st century,
but if you feel you're doing it alongside other people and that people are there

(37:37):
celebrating the fact that you've survived this long, first of all,
that's to be celebrated.
But also that you have so much to contribute and that actually we're all the
richer for hearing the life experiences and the memories and the points of view
of people who have lived long and experienced much.
I think that that attitude of gratitude and appreciation of really celebrating

(38:02):
the people that we have while we can, rather than waiting until it's too late,
letting them hear our appreciation.
I think that's beautiful. And
I love that idea. So I think you've got some easy guides on your website.
If people want to run these forget me not services or the celebration of age,
how do they find those easy guides?
Well, I've just written and completed, I think the proofreading is now happening for an easy guide,

(38:27):
which is just a couple of sides of A4 on a lot of different topics,
but this one specifically on holding an in celebration of age service,
those kinds of services that are geared specifically for older people.
And so the beauty of it is that you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
Somebody's already thought about it and decided what are the key you know, key top tips.

(38:48):
And they're free to download these easy guides. So if you go to the website
and look under resources, there's a drop down that will show you easy guides.
And we've been building up a real library of these.
So we've got, for example, other topics that come to mind, how to involve schools
in the work and life of a care home.

(39:08):
So how to kind of buddy school and care home together, how to pray with someone
who's terminally ill, how to, how to be with people at the end of life.
Again, it's a top topic that people ask for more and more training on.
It doesn't come naturally, or we feel it's not going to come naturally.
In actual fact, it's much easier to do than one might expect,

(39:32):
and one shouldn't be put off by the thought of one's own mortality.
Of course, people tend to veer away from any discussion of death and dying because
it's uncomfortable for some people.
But in actual fact, as we get older, we want people to talk to us about death
and dying because it's a much more real and imminent thought for them.

(39:55):
And very often families fail their loved ones by batting the topic away.
Even when grandmother or grandfather might want to talk about it,
they might say, oh, oh, inadvertently say, oh, oh, your age is away from that.
Oh, no, you know, you're looking great.
Don't bother thinking about that. Don't be morbid.
But it's not a question of being morbid. These are realities that people want

(40:17):
someone who's kind and a good listener to really help them think through and to prepare for.
I know my dad was in hospice last year and passed away about this time last
year, actually, a few days ago last year.
And I, just as a carer, really benefited from all the people who came and prayed

(40:38):
with him, who sat with him, who encouraged him, and who just weren't afraid
to talk about the big issues.
So I do think there's skill in it, but it's so important and mattered to him,
but also to us as his family being with him in those days.
Completely, completely. And then for the person who's at the focus of everyone's

(40:59):
attention, you know, that's hugely reassuring for them that people are treating it naturally.
It's a natural part of life. Death is part of life.
And yet we've become such a death denying society.
That's the problem. So knowing where to start and having a couple of sides of
A4 that just give you a real sense of how anybody can do this. It's not difficult.

(41:20):
It's just you need a little bit of guidance and a bit of tact and diplomacy in the process.
So one thing I want to come on to
is this that there's a whole load of
ways that we can support people who are elderly and
churches are full of fantastic community people who
want to get around and support and look after people who

(41:40):
pop in and visit but there are some cautions that we want to offer or maybe
just some awareness raising of some of the safeguarding challenges or even just
some do's and don'ts as you're trying to support people so you might be listening
to this podcast and thinking oh i must go and check in on Auntie Mabel or, you know,
that woman who used to come to church and hasn't been for a while,

(42:01):
I really should go and check up on her.
What are some sort of do's and don'ts or some things that we want to flag up
as people want to support those who are elderly in their community?
Well, I'm glad you've asked this because very often safeguarding courses,
which have become absolutely vital across all the denominations now,
and rightly so, tend to focus on children children and vulnerable young people.

(42:24):
And they don't so often mention vulnerable older people. So it's important to
think of both ends of the age spectrum, as we've said.
I think our advice for Anna chaplains is to follow the advice of one's own denominations.
As we've said, there are many different denominations who are involved with Anna chaplaincy.
So there are Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, pre-evangelical churches, is URC, you name it.

(42:49):
So each denomination will be giving a lot of thought to all of this and there will be protocols.
So it's important for each person who is a designated Anna Chaplin or Anna Friend
to follow the advice of their own denominations. That's the first thing.
When crafting the sorts of services that I've been talking about,
it's important to think about the safeguarding aspect.

(43:12):
And it's right, really, to make sure that the people who are likely to have
the most hands-on experience with people, in other words, somebody might need to go to the lavatory,
somebody might need a little bit of guidance if they're pulling their skirt
up and, you know, inappropriate behavior that just needs to be sort of dealt with.

(43:34):
It's best if somebody who has been DBS checked, in other words,
they've got the kind of statutory paperwork in place, they've been trained,
they've been checked with the Criminal Records Bureau and all of those kind
of things, so that the right people are known.
And so if there's a problem that crops up, you know, Debbie Liana Chaplin or

(43:56):
John Liana Chaplin, could you help here?
And if there is an incident when something happens, so say there's a small accident
or there's some kind of incident, it's always important safeguarding wise to
make a contemporaneous note. So write it down.
If there's an accident, write it in the accident book for the church,

(44:17):
and they're bound to have them, I'm sure.
And make sure if you're in any doubt of a conversation you've had,
which has alerted you to some sort of risk around this person's life, that you refer up. up.
So explain why you've just got a bit of an uneasy feeling about somebody following
a conversation you may have had with them or something that they confided to

(44:40):
you and you didn't know quite what to do with the confidence that they gave to you.
Refer up, because that's the safeguarding protocol for pretty much everybody,
is make sure that if you've got some kind of concern that you flag it up to
someone who is more senior than you. you.
So those are important tips. In terms of loan working and setting boundaries,

(45:03):
if you're a pastoral visitor, often pastoral visitors will go in pairs,
or if it's the tradition of that church that you go on your own.
Again, if anything happens or you're told something that you feel is important
and significant and you need to share it with someone, share it with your your line manager,

(45:24):
your minister, so that somebody else is brought into the circle.
And if somebody is telling you, say, a confession of some sort of abuse that
they've carried out themselves, that is an illegal act that they are telling you about.
And you are duty-bound to make sure that you tell somebody about it.
There are key moments in exchanges between people where confidentiality no longer

(45:50):
applies, and that's one of the key ones.
If somebody is saying that actually they've been an abuser and you have some
doubt about whether they may still be.
Abusing others who are in their circle, then you are duty bound to flag that
up to somebody and appropriate steps will ensue.
So it's not to scare people because, you know, the vast majority of people who

(46:13):
wish to help with the older age group are never going to encounter any of these difficulties.
But if they do, then they need to know where they go for help and advice.
And that's the key thing. And particularly anybody who is putting their head
above the parapet, if you like, becoming an Anna Chaplin or a volunteer Anna friend.
It'll form part of their training, but they will also be properly line managed

(46:38):
by somebody within the church in which they're embedded.
Every Anna Chaplin is accountable to and is authorized by their local church.
They may work among people who have no particular religious affiliation,
and indeed about 50% of of those encounters that they have are likely to be,
according to our surveys, with people who never do go to church.

(47:01):
They're in the wider community, but they're in that age group or they are a
carer who needs additional support.
So one isn't to be put off going into this sort of ministry by some of the things
that I've talked about, but it's as well to be aware of the kind of frameworks
that exist to make sure that all of this is done in a safe and professional way as possible.

(47:22):
Because I think as good Christians, we often want to look out for our neighbours
or people on our street and we might pop in and go, oh, are you all right?
We need to be cautious about things like taking some cash from them and buying
things from the corner shop.
Again, finance can be a big issue, especially if they're quite forgetful.
You know, did that money come back? Should I do it? And we just want to say,
don't do those kind of things.

(47:42):
If you're going to buy something, buy it out of your own money and don't touch
anything that belongs to them in terms of finances.
And again, it's just trying to make sure that the key carers and relatives are
the ones who are making those decisions.
Often, And as we talked about before, you can end up with elderly people who
are quite far away from their family and they come to church and tell you about

(48:06):
stuff that's going on and you want to step in and help them.
You want to get involved, but we don't want to alienate those family members.
So Anna Chapton's would be trained in all of this. Us as being good neighbors,
we might end up just sort of stepping over those boundaries unintentionally
and very well meaningly.
But but we need to be careful that we're not actually causing more problems
than we're trying to help with yeah i think that's very good advice and and

(48:30):
never put oneself in jeopardy by.
However much somebody might say or do take my my card to the to the local shop
and use it to you know tap and go or to could you get me some cash out no leave
that to their closest relatives and And you can never then be accused of any
kind of financial abuse or coercion of any sort.

(48:52):
So it's just using your common sense not to lay yourself open to criticism or
some sort of accusation.
Much safer to err on the side. And if somebody is hungry and they need food, just buy it yourself.
Or at least talk to the local church and say, you know, can I get some food
bank vouchers for this person because they really are in need.

(49:14):
So there are ways of doing it much more safely than actually using
cash or borrowing money from people we've gone
down quite a heavy heavy road but i guess these are the main these
are some of the big issues that do face people who are lonely or living their
own vulnerable but coming back to this vision of hope of of of pastoring people

(49:34):
in their later life and and appreciating all that they've got that they can bring to us,
but also helping them live flourishing spiritual and emotional lives.
I'm sure you want more people to get involved with Anna Chaplaincy.
Tell me more about the vision of what you want to do there.
Well, I would dearly love to see Anna Chaplaincy becoming as synonymous with

(50:00):
good spiritual care as, say, Macmillan nurses are for good cancer care.
I think, I hope and pray that one day Anna Chaplaincy will be available in every
medium-sized community across the land.
And we've got pilots now of where that is actually happening.

(50:20):
Take Portsmouth Diocese, for example. not just Anglicans, but others of other
denominations, Methodists and so forth in Southampton and the Isle of Wight,
are now really developing Anna Chaplaincy in a very strategic, rolled-out way.
Because the Bishop of Portsmouth, Jonathan Frost, has said he wanted to have
Anna Chaplaincy available in every parish, what we're doing is we've done bespoke

(50:44):
training weekends for Anna Chaplains and Anna Friends.
Others have been on the online training that you've mentioned.
And we've now got 60 Anna chaplains and Anna friends trained up in a year.
So this is really starting to happen.
It's happening elsewhere in the country too. Cumbria has had a wonderful tradition
of enabling churches to be dementia friendly, having dementia enablers.

(51:08):
And when that pilot project came to a close, Churches Together in Cumbria took
on Anna Chaplaincy as their next push, really, to enhance the lives of all older
people, not just people with dementia.
And there's, again, been a lot of training going on.
And we've got a regional coordinator paid for by Churches Together in Cumbria.

(51:30):
And that's what the pattern seems to be that's developing now,
that the areas of the country where we're seeing the biggest growth are where
there are paid and indeed, in some cases, volunteer coordinators.
Rochester and Canterbury Diocese in Kent, which cover the fringes of South London as well,
in Newcastle and Cumbria and in Wales and in the West Country based in Devon.

(51:57):
So those are the kind of hotspots.
And we're now getting our first Anna Chaplins in Scotland.
So we've got our first Church of England and Scottish Episcopal Church Anna Chaplins.
So this little idea that began by me responding to a job advert for,
we don't know what it's going to look like, but we think it's a good idea to

(52:17):
have a chaplain for older people idea in autumn has grown since 2014 to this
extent to 358 Anna chaplains and their equivalents across the country.
Plus those typically five to eight volunteers, some of whom are known as Anna
friends who are working alongside them. So we're now talking about over half

(52:39):
a million encounters a year with older people and carers.
And, you know, you start to see how that can be amplified all over the country.
And suddenly we'd have a real force of people who would be enhancing the lives
of older people and crucially giving people who've got so much to offer the
opportunities to contribute.

(53:00):
Because I don't know whether you heard Joan Bakewell on the Today program the
other day. It was a very short interview at the end.
She's become something of a spokeswoman for older people.
She's 90 now. Wow, she sounds still so young and is so full of energy.
And she was really lamenting the fact that we write people off too early.
And Bob would say this. Bob, at the age of 112, said, I had to retire in my

(53:24):
60s, but I could easily have carried on another 10 years or more.
People have so much to offer, and age shouldn't be a barrier to go on contributing
to our our families, our communities,
our churches, and the wider conversation of what it is to be human across all ages.

(53:44):
I have been blessed by many people in their later years, and often they are
the backbone and the key volunteers in churches across the country.
So we couldn't be without them. And we do really, really appreciate them.
And I want to thank you for this incredible ministry that you have been obedient and followed through.
And 10 years, that's some pretty good work to bring it up to 358 Anna Chaplains

(54:07):
and nearly, what did you say, half a million.
Encounters across the country. It's just beautiful. And I know God is using it. Yeah.
Well, it's all thanks to BRF Ministries who took on the risk,
if you like, and took us on.
And Richard Fisher, my boss, the CEO of BRF Ministries, and my successor,

(54:28):
Debbie Duseal, who's now heading up this ministry.
We're a tiny team and we need more funds to keep that engine of growth going.
It's a struggle sometimes to get the money to pay for this core team that's
helping to train people.
Julia Burton-Jones is developing the training courses all the time.
And as I say, there's no shortage of people wanting to come forward to be Anna

(54:52):
Chaplins and Anna Friends.
What we do need is the funds to keep that core team going at BRF,
based in Abingdon, but as everybody does, we all work remotely from home these days.
But without that central heartbeat, if you like, this growth would not have happened.
So, you know, if you're a prayer, then pray that the resources will come to

(55:13):
enable us to keep this level of growth continuing.
Continuing because there's really you know the
sky's the limit in terms of the impact that
that could have on successive generations and changing
our attitudes to what it is to be old to to a point where we really value everybody
at every age and stage of their lives and if you're a giver do give and a chaplaincy

(55:37):
would appreciate that support to grow this ministry do really really appreciate
you, Debbie. It's been fantastic talking with you.
And I will give people lots of websites and details of places to go shortly.
But I just want to say thank you and really appreciate your time.
A lovely opportunity. And thank you so much. And I do hope that people really

(55:58):
read the books and get booklets.
And you're never starting from scratch with this.
There's lots of help out there. It's just knowing where to find it.
And that's what you're providing. So thank you for that. Thank you.
For easy guides to connecting with care homes, schools, running Messy Vintage,
a form of Messy Church adapted for older people,
dementia cafes and the Forget Me Not service Debbie mentioned earlier,

(56:21):
please head to the Anna Chaplaincy website, annachaplaincy.org.uk.
They also offer a training course to become an Anna Chaplain.
It's Zoom-based training that happens over six two-hour sessions.
Trainers are subject specialists and with small cohorts of no more than 14 people,
You'll have loads of interaction.

(56:42):
Guest Anna chaplains also contribute.
The course is available to those who are supported by their local church in
taking on a role as an Anna chaplain.
It costs £148, including the handbook, which provides all your essential reading on the topic.
To find out more, head to the Anna Chaplaincy website and click Training and Support.

(57:02):
Be sure to read Julie Burton-Jones' article on Dementia-Friendly Church in Roots
Adult and All Age magazine, issue 132, out in July, August 2024.
You can find it on our website as well, rootsforchurches.com.
Roots publish weekly materials for intergenerational ministry, preaching and worship.

(57:23):
And as you heard, our all age resources are fantastic for including people with dementia.
Our resources are ordered around the Revised Common Lectionary and help you
engage heart, mind and body in your worship.
Thanks for listening.