May 30, 2024 • 40 mins
In this episode of Understanding the Science of You, Graham Skidmore and Jonathan Angelilli engage in a conversation about masculinity, vulnerability, and self-discovery. Jonathan, a native New Yorker, 2X American Ninja Warrior, and Founder of Breathe Move Nourish, is pioneer of holistic fitness with nineteen years of coaching experience.
He shares his journey growing up in Queens and searching for his purpose in life, calling himself, "sensitive, but not submissive. In this episode, he also discusses:
- Masculinity, recovery, and personal growth.
- Upbringing, education, and cultural influences in a diverse Queens neighborhood.
- Eastern culture, spirituality, and personal growth.
- Societal expectations on boys.
- Rites of passage.
- Personal beliefs and emotional intelligence.
- Personal growth through meditation and nature.
ABOUT JONATHAN ANGELILLI
Jonathan is a native New Yorker, 2x American Ninja Warrior, and pioneer of holistic fitness with nineteen years of coaching experience. His core passion is teaching others how to achieve new levels of health and strength through primal movement and energy medicine. He started exercising to "look better naked", but fitness ended up radically transforming his life; he was able to overcome a destructive teenage drug addiction using only holistic movement, meditation, and nature connection.
For those interested in learning more about Jonathan's work or seeking guidance, visit his website at purestrength.nyc or follow him on Facebook @jonathan.angelilli, or Instagram at @bmn.coach.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you for joining us on another episode of Understanding the Science of You.
And I am joined today by Jonathan Angelilli. Did I get that correct?
Angelilli. Yep. Awesome.
Sweet. And I'm really excited about today's conversation, right?
Because Understanding the Science of You is all about being able to find the
(00:20):
access to the information to get comfortable in your own skin by having a real talk.
And I think that there's a shortage of the variety of what masculinity can look
like, or what guy talk can look like.
And so I think it's really important for, you know, Johnny or the UNH today
that we're going to sit down and have a conversation that I think both in a
(00:41):
UNI would have benefited from being able to have access to in younger years.
Even if it was just overhearing it and understanding that that was out there
and this is how there's a type of guy that this is, or that it doesn't make
you any less of a guy or any less masculine to be this way or that way.
Right. And so I really appreciate and want to thank you in advance for being
willing to look, be vulnerable. Right.
(01:03):
And, you know, we're not going to say, obviously say anything that's going to
make, that's going to embarrass anybody here, but you're still in the less,
you're letting people into your private life. Right.
And, you know, as guys, we're not, we're not taught to just sit,
you know, let everybody in and be vulnerable and stuff like that.
So I just want And thank you for joining us here today, allowing you to tell
your story and be vulnerable so that people can relate to you.
(01:25):
And at the end of this, smile and feel better about themselves because of what
they learned from you. So that's cool with you.
It's very cool. Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to have this conversation.
All right. So I gave a longer intro than I intended there.
So let me, why don't I just then give you a chance to let the listeners understand you, right?
(01:48):
What do you want to share about them so they can kind of feel like they've walked
in your shoes a bit to understand what you're saying?
Sure. So I'm 43 years old. I'm a father of two amazing children.
I've been a personal trainer and wellness coach for 23 years.
I have been living in recovery and sober for 22 years.
(02:11):
And movement, meditation, and nature
connection were really the three keys to help me
save myself from this this
path of self-destruction which is a very
common rite of passage for men to go through when they're
when they're young perhaps we'll talk about that I serve mostly mothers I love
(02:31):
serving women I a mama's boy confessed I have three sisters and my mother and
the four of them really shaped my childhood so, so much.
So I certainly don't ever claim to speak for mankind in any way,
because I, my whole life, and I know you can relate with this,
(02:53):
and I'm sure other people can too,
I've always identified more with women and their thoughts and sensibilities.
And I can pretend, and I have male friends, but it was always much harder and much more of an effort.
And yeah, so that's a little bit about me. Yeah, I grew up in Queens,
lived in Manhattan for 20 years.
(03:13):
I've had my own personal training in wellness for almost 20 years.
And I currently spend a lot of time up in Montreal. I do strength training for
a professional dance company up there, which is really fun.
And yeah, I'm thrilled to be here and happy to answer any questions.
Awesome. So we're going to go back to your background here because I think there's
(03:37):
some some fun stuff that I want to bring into it to paint the picture.
But I think it was interesting that you brought up the aspect regarding the
feminine influence of the female influence in your life.
You know, and I just did a chuckle about that because most of the things that
I've learned that are supposed to be like,
guy-to-guy stuff, I was taught by a woman or a female, right?
(03:57):
The woman, the adult who was responsible for onboarding me into this world taught
me, is the one who taught me how to shave, not the guy who was responsible for onboarding me, right?
And it was a girl I was dating who taught me that when you look at the car,
where that little arrow is above the gas, it tells you what side of the car
the gas gauge, the gas thing is on, so when you pull in, right?
(04:19):
Never knew that in my life it had been like been driving for 20 years before i learned that.
I know you know in a in a fee in a in
a and a another girl i dated taught me
how to drive a stick i mean like
to your point there's just a certain there's a there's a certain i think sometimes
teaching relationship that can be easier especially for guys that are wired
(04:42):
differently you know whether they want to call that neurodivergent being sensitive
just being connected to energy, right? That makes that type of relationship.
But I want to, but it's even going to be, but this, I want to create the contrast
a bit more here because that's obviously where the, where the,
where the knowledge comes is in your journey and understanding for you to get
to where you get to, got to, it wasn't because there was all the proper,
(05:05):
the breadcrumbs were laid out for you and everything made sense, right?
You, you grew up in Queens, New York, Mark, describe the neighborhood.
Yeah, we were solidly middle class, you know, towards the low part of middle class growing up.
I did have the privilege of growing up in a two-parent household with a lot
(05:27):
of love and other stuff too, but a lot of love.
And in a beautiful neighborhood of Queens. It's not what most people envision
when they think of Queens.
So it was a beautiful neighborhood, but I was born in 1980. 80.
And yeah, the city was not in the best shape then.
And, and I was, I was pretty sheltered. I went to a private school out in Long
(05:48):
Island and yeah, I just, I chafed at school.
I was a mover, you know, I would have been the hunter warrior scout of the tribe.
I just needed to move. I needed sensory input and motor output more than a lot of other kids.
And I excelled there, but I I didn't really, you know, I did okay with grades,
but I always just felt, you know, a bit imprisoned at school.
(06:11):
So, yeah, so it was a solidly middle class upbringing for sure.
But there were plenty of challenges.
Would you say, was your neighborhood full of...
A lot of different backgrounds, ethnicities, cultures, religion,
or was it pretty much like, hey, everybody kind of went to the same school.
Everybody went to the same church. What was that like?
(06:33):
Yeah. I mean, it's pretty diverse. It's all relative, right?
Queens County is the most diverse county in the world.
There's more languages spoken in Queens County than anywhere else in the world.
My neighborhood in particular was a lot of Italian and Irish at the time.
And now there's a a lot more Asians and it's become much more diverse people of color.
(06:54):
But when I was growing up, it was, it wasn't the most diverse place in Queens. That's for sure.
So the strong Italian and Irish
influence in your neighborhood is what introduced you to Taoism? Is that?
Okay. All right. So here we go, folks. Now we understand where the,
where the contrast lies.
So, all right. So here you are, you're right. You are, you know,
(07:17):
I think that anybody could but I think the thing to envision,
you know, a lot of older movies about New York and kind of picture you and your
neighborhood and that kind of a stuff. Right.
So now that we've kind of got this and, you know, I picture you in like newsies
or whatever, I got your little cap and you're, you know, you can throw on your
papers around, you know, it's not it, but you know, that's just how I envisioned
you. And it makes me smile. Right.
(07:38):
Right. And so now how do you go from that to, right.
To, you know, understand even being introduced to some, some Eastern traditions,
decent thinking, I don't know
what the right terminology, and then kind of going down that other path.
And how did that kind of compare to what you were taught as,
you know, what it meant to be a man, you know? Right.
(07:59):
Well, in 1985, I walked into the movie theater and saw the Karate Kid.
And I walked out of that movie theater and begged my parents to take me to the
closest dojo that they could find and ended up training in Shotokan karate and
getting my black belt by age 10.
(08:21):
I was extremely dedicated to it. It was really formative. And obviously that's
not Taoist culture, but it was my first entry into Asian culture.
And I didn't really understand or learn the concept of Taoism until my 20s.
But I feel like I was very much on that path around age five or so.
(08:45):
If you haven't seen the movie, Ralph Macchio just feels like he totally doesn't
belong. long. And he moves from New Jersey to California.
And that was how I felt, right? I was the only boy in my family.
I was always the black sheep.
I was always kind of didn't fit in, didn't fit in at school, like I was saying.
And once I started training karate, something inside of me clicked.
(09:06):
I had, you know, one of my first deep spiritual experiences doing training in karate.
I had vivid dreams, you know, and visions and things that I consider now deeply
spiritual at the time when I was a kid, it just seemed like cool stuff that
was happening to me when I was asleep.
But my first kind of more waking vision and experience of a deep spirituality
(09:28):
that is underneath everything that we see all this physical was in karate class
when my sensei, who I really looked up to,
told us to hold our hands out
to the side and that we were going to hold our hands out to
the side for the entire class and it's a 45 minute class and
i was seven years old and i mean the amount the emotional roller coaster i went
(09:50):
through of like i have to do this thing right gonna be impossible but i have
to do it and you know it was so hard but then it wasn't hard something clicked.
Beyond the burden beyond the doubt the frustration and the next thing i know
my sense it was like like, okay, class is over.
And I looked and the clock had gone through it. And my arms had been out the whole time.
(10:15):
We did the whole class with my arms outstretched.
And that was my first experience of like, okay, wait a minute.
What just happened? Like.
I do not have a reference or understanding, nor do I feel like there's anyone
in my life that can help me put this into context.
And so that was the beginning of my journey, I think, into trying to understand
(10:39):
what is time, what is matter, what is spirit, what is actually possible,
what is this ability that the body provides as a gateway into much deeper,
profound things that the more reason,
logic newer aspects of the brain cannot compute
so that that was my entry into
(11:00):
you know any type of eastern culture and
then i really got into buddhism and hold on hold
on this is this pretty deep for a five-year-old right like usually five-year-old
you know the movies you know the depth is kit kat reese's sour patch kids right
like i mean that's a tough decision you're trying to understand things in a
very and a very different level so at this point it was Was this embraced with
(11:23):
where you were going compared to your upbringing?
Are you continuing to be the black sheep as a result of you going this way?
Yeah, I mean, I was still on the outside doing all the things,
but I couldn't keep up with my sisters because my sisters are brilliant.
Maybe we're all brilliant, but they're brilliant in a very rewarded kind of way.
My oldest sister went to Wharton and then Harvard Law, graduated top of her class.
(11:46):
And then my next sister went to Cornell and then NYU Medical and is an eye surgeon.
And they both went to Exeter, which is arguably the best boarding school in the country.
I could not play that game like that.
But here I was, the boy of an Italian-American family.
(12:07):
And I had to find something.
And that process was really ugly, frankly, because I couldn't measure up to
the way that I thought I was supposed to.
That's, I think, where a lot like this not fitting in, not belonging is what
led me into this dark rite of passage with drugs.
And so that was my path. You know, it wasn't like I decided at seven,
(12:31):
like, oh, my God, I'm going to be a martial artist for the rest of my life.
And this is what I'm doing.
I knew I had discovered something really important that I cherish still to this
day that still guides me like a light to this day. but it wasn't like the whole
path was illuminated then. And I knew exactly what I was going to do.
You know, you get these key moments in life and they, they, they come and then
(12:55):
they go and, and you gotta, you gotta pay attention and cherish them and weave
them into your personal mythology and your stories so that you remember them.
And, and that's what I did. And that was, you know, that, that served as a light
post as I went into this very, very dark rite of passage through self-destruction as a teenager.
(13:15):
And so I want to try to level set with the, or at least get a baseline with the audience.
And I'm trying to think to myself as like, all right, growing up right between
the age of five and then going in down the path of drugs, vices, whatever, right?
It's a very young impressionable age for boys, right?
And trying to understand kind of what it means to be a man, right?
(13:39):
So I just kind of want to understand that for us in this conversation is,
did you grow up with, hey, guys don't cry, you suck it up, hey,
it's all about physical strength, you're supposed to be the breadwinner, right?
I mean, those are kind of like the things that were said to me,
you know, back in the day.
Yeah, for sure. I mean, even though I went to a private school,
and it was a wonderful school, I was picked on a lot by the older boys because
(14:01):
they could feel that I was not like them.
I had what you might say is more of a sensitive or feminine energy about me.
And I think to some degree, boys always test other boys, but especially when
they send something different. They test it for weakness.
If we really want to be reductionist girls, the social Social pressure is either
(14:24):
be fuckable or be invisible, right?
And that's awful, right? You either have to be really hot and that's the value
you provide or you got to disappear and get out of the way.
For boys, it's be strong or die, which is as bad.
And, you know, when you're different, you get tested.
(14:45):
So I had older kids push me down the stairs, spit me in my face, you know, harass.
I was a beast on the athletic field. I just had an extra gear that other kids didn't have.
And so I would sometimes beat kids that were one or two years older than me,
(15:07):
which is like kind of a big deal when you're eight, nine, 10,
11 years old. And they hated that.
So I was, and I also, even though I was like sensitive, I wasn't submissive,
you know, And like a lot of boys, I was trying on different roles that I saw,
different models that I saw of masculinity. So I was trying to figure it out.
(15:28):
Luckily, I didn't stop at any one, and I kept on realizing these are all masks,
and I need to find what's unique to me.
It was a lot of trial and error, but when you don't fit in the mold,
you are tested, and you have to be strong or die.
People find different ways of being strong, and for me, a lot of it was around
(15:50):
athletics and fighting even.
You know like I I would use my martial arts
at a certain point because in one of
my best friends to this day you know in third
grade he was like he probably outweighed me by 30 pounds you know and he had
two brothers right so he would and a single mom so he was coming from you know
(16:13):
a very masculine energy culture and he's very sensitive too and that's why we
ended up becoming great friends but it all started with this fight.
He wanted to test me and he outweighed me by like 30 pounds,
even though we were in the same grade and he was tall, a whole head taller than me.
And it was a draw and all the boys watched and, and then he respected me,
you know, and now he's one of my closest, closest friends, but you know,
(16:35):
that's the way of, of boys and boyhood.
And there's, there's nothing wrong with that to a degree. It's that it's the
lack of healthy male models that can help guide that, create a container for
that, that really was missing.
And that's when I went into my quest with, you know, I had these answers that
I felt like no one in my circle could answer.
My father couldn't answer it. My uncles couldn't answer it. My sisters couldn't
(16:58):
answer it. My teachers couldn't answer it. I had mentors at school.
I was pretty privileged.
There were people around me that were knowledgeable, but I knew they,
I would ask and they didn't have the answer to these questions.
So I had to kind of go and figure it out on my own. And that's where the appeal
of Buddhism and self-exploration and meditation got into like something called
astral projection, which is not something I would really recommend people doing.
(17:21):
But it was my way of trying to answer this question of like,
what is real? What is actually possible?
Okay. Wow. You unloaded a lot more than I was expecting right there. That was that was.
That was tremendous. First of all, I want to first say sensitive,
not submissive. I think that's just a very important point, I think,
for anybody to understand, regardless of gender.
There's a very big difference between those two.
(17:43):
Then the other part is, let's walk us through that healthy step. So people are people.
Everybody's wired to be different, et cetera. So roughhousing,
quote unquote, being boys in that respect or being masculine,
there is an element where it looks, if someone's attacking the village,
somebody's got to step up and protect the village.
You know what I mean? So you've got to have people that are willing to do that.
(18:04):
But to your point, how do you take that and also manage that in a healthy way
and have it where then, right?
Like what would be your – maybe I'll say it this way. What would be your advice
to young men today who are like – who want to be able to say,
look, man, I like this. Like you, I was in athletics.
I was brought up that way, right? Like I was a roughhouser, right?
And so – but I didn't understand how to take that into a healthy way, right? Right.
(18:27):
So what advice would you have given a young me to say, hey, this is cool when you're 10 or 12.
Once you start to get to here, here's how you want to adjust yourself and understanding as a male.
I mean, if we're talking about the transition of, you know, from child to teenager and adult,
I think there's a reason why many, if not all, indigenous cultures had specific
(18:52):
rites of passage right at that moment.
I felt deeply that something inside of me needed to die, and I didn't have a
mentor to really guide me into that spiritual thing that needed to die to make space for this adult.
The same tool that can cut someone down can perform surgery or forge a new path
(19:15):
to somewhere wonderful.
So there's nothing wrong with the tools of rough play and physicality.
They're absolutely essential to our development, in my understanding,
and that's something I've been studying now for close to 30 years,
how to transition them to be of benefit, to be of service to your community, to your tribe.
(19:37):
That's where the rites of passage come in, and that's the key.
I don't have a single thing to say to a young person that's facing that.
I would say that the pain inside of you is real. Something does need to die,
and it's not you. you, it's not your body.
I really flirted with self-destruction because I was trying to figure out a
(19:58):
way and find my own way to make space for this adult that wanted to be born.
And it didn't have to be as dangerous or as irresponsible as it was or harmful
to my relationships and myself, but I didn't have that model,
that container, that mentor, that lineage to do it.
(20:19):
I'm a huge fan, just generally speaking, of wilderness rites of passage.
So finding a school, I did a vision quest.
And if there's one time where I feel like, okay, maybe this is when I...
There's no moment where you become a man.
But there's moments where I think you realize how much you've grown and you
see yourself in a new light.
And that was one of them. And I did this vision quest with an amazing school
(20:43):
called the School of Lost Orders. They operate out of California,
but they help facilitate these kinds of rites of passage.
And there's other wilderness schools, four earth elements, education, the tracker school.
Luckily, there's more, you know, awareness and more schools now that offer these kinds of things.
I think the original context for our humanity, when we don't have that connection
(21:09):
to nature, were like animals in a zoo.
Animals in captivity do all kinds of awful, harmful things that they never would
do if they were in the wild.
So, you know, if I did have one general advice, particularly for the teenage years,
was getting into wilderness schools and wilderness rites of passage as a way
(21:29):
to help you transition from one world to the next. I think that's tremendous.
I think that just to add to that would be, I think, you know,
helping to understand the difference between I own this land and it is mine to do what I want with.
And I'm a steward of this land responsible for all of its patrons and all of
(21:51):
us living in harmony and the proper ecosystem, right? And understanding that's a responsibility.
And I think that that's a type of maturity, right? I don't know if there's ever
a spot, there's no doubt, there's definitely feelings and signs of maturity that need to happen.
And I think that that's a maturing of that understanding is really lacking out
there for us, quite frankly. Yeah, no.
Pop culture and the movies sure as heck wasn't it, right? Like I struggled like you did, right?
(22:15):
As funny as you're saying is that I didn't necessarily think of myself as ever
being singled out or tested, but as you were saying that, I was like,
oh crap, you know, I really was. But like yourself, I wasn't submissive.
And quite frankly, because of the way I grew up, I grew up as a bully because
that was my defense mechanism from being sensitive.
I was told, I mean, I should have given you a girl's name so you would have
been tougher, right? Like that was my friend from third grade.
(22:37):
I really only made that connection recently when he went through a very difficult
time and I was able to be a support for him, but he's very sensitive,
but his, his shield was being the bully as well. That's very common.
Yeah. And then, you know, then of course you don't feel great about that later on in your life.
And so here we are, right? I can't do anything about what's done in the past,
except for say, Hey, I walked in the shoes of being a bully and an a-hole so
(22:59):
that I know how to counteract that later on in life and do better.
I don't know. So that's calling myself out and transforming it to good.
Now I want to kind of segue into this next chapter, but you used this term earlier,
that game that gets in a rewarded way.
Right. And I think that's really, really important. I think that's an important
thing with both understanding the science of you, just the concept of that.
(23:20):
The concept, I think that's a mature understanding of the world and a mature
understanding of what type of options are available, right?
Because we're brought up understanding like, hey, there's a system.
You go to school, you do this, you go to work, you get a job, right? it, right?
And as a result, to your point, even if you want to be different,
one of the rubs that I've found has been, look, I may want to be different,
(23:43):
but I still always have to face the.
Practicalities of being in the material world that requires money to have a
place to live, to have an automobile for food, things of that nature, right?
And so that does kind of govern things to an extent or create boundaries that
may not be inherently feel good and natural.
You had to have had a big catalyst to go against that and to keep you going
(24:06):
and so how did you decide to do for yourself that may be the game and by the
way you know i'm not you know that
there's no way i'm going to let you just leave saying that that game and that
you know your sisters had a one-up on you or anything like that we're going
to revisit that and close it on a positive note you know pulling the friend
card there but until we get to that spot.
(24:27):
How did you decide that that's not the game i want to play right like
i i don't it's not worth those type of rewards of
giving up myself to play that game and then getting and trying
to get at peace with that in that journey it wasn't a
decision in my head it was a knowing in my bones you know the rite of passage
i went through wasn't like i felt compelled to do it like it felt it felt like
(24:50):
this is your only way this is the way fuck everyone fuck anyone who tries to tell me shit,
I have to burn and break things to understand what's going on right now.
I have to test the limits.
And it really wasn't a conscious decision.
It reached a certain point where I think there was no point to go burn,
(25:13):
like I have to see it through to the other side.
I don't know if that answers your question, but I, you know,
I just knew I had to find a different path that made sense to me.
Yeah, no, it takes us where we need to get to. And so the feelings, right?
This is a big thing. This is one of the things that was hard for me was being
able to put words to feelings and even understanding different skills,
(25:33):
abilities, because I would have expected things to be maybe more magnified in
the way that I saw them, felt them, experienced them.
And in many cases, things are much more subtle than that, right? Right.
And so therefore, when I listen to people, people say, well,
you know, I just felt this way. You know what I mean? No, I don't know what you mean.
Right. Like I spent lots of time trying to understand my feels.
And so for those that are listening, when you say it just felt like the way.
(25:57):
Right. Like I guess kind of give maybe give a contrast when you say that and
you think about how your body feels,
when it doesn't feel like the way, how do you kind of know and how would you
put some words to that compared to when it does feel more like the way and being
able to put some words to that to help people better identify those little subtle
feelings that they may be going through?
It's a great question. There's a great term that's not so well-known,
(26:21):
but it's called interoception.
Intero is like inward, inception, like perception, like perceiving.
So your ability to understand the sensations that your body is giving you,
are you hungry? Are you thirsty?
Are you angry? Are you sad? Are you afraid?
Or more likely, a mix of those things and what is the most important thing that
(26:43):
needs to be addressed right now.
Interoception is something that can be trained, is wonderful,
through stillness practice, through meditation, through primal movement,
developmental movement, rolling around on the ground and relaxation techniques
that have a lot of sensory input.
It's possible to work with an occupational therapist. As a teenager,
I feel like you're just learning where your ass is from your elbow.
(27:05):
So I was a passionate motherfucker.
Like I really had strong beliefs and I was born that way.
I wouldn't necessarily go around and preach them, but I felt things deeply.
And I don't know if that's a function of just the way that I was born or the
fact that I grew up with three sisters and a really strong matriarch and talking
(27:27):
about our feelings was encouraged.
I don't know if that's helpful, but I do think that it is something that people
can learn to read their body better and better.
And some of the most beautiful and important moments of my life,
sort of how I met my wife is a great example.
My body spoke to me in a way that was just unbelievable and hard for the rational,
(27:48):
logical mind to process.
But I had enough experience in trusting it that I would follow its lead, you know? own.
Yeah. I mean, do you feel like sinking feelings in the stomach?
Are they like pains in the chest?
Are they twitches in the arm? I guess, do you have anything like that,
(28:09):
that is one of those things that gets your attention that when your body does it, it's an indicator?
It's a great question. I don't really experience it like that.
I'm more experienced like this, sensation, drop into it, feel it, thought arises.
So it's less about like, okay, whenever this happens here, I know,
(28:30):
you know, that I'm feeling this.
I mean, this is an audio podcast. So I'll say, you know, whenever I feel pressure
in my heart, I know I'm sad.
I've felt that before. That is a thing that I've experienced,
but sadness can manifest in other parts of my body. Maybe that's just specific to me.
I, my, my guess is it's not, but yeah, so it's more like feel the sensation.
(28:52):
Don't escape it. Don't try to like hide from it.
Breathe into it. Give yourself permission. Let it move through you.
And then what comes up right after that?
I'm always telling my students the amazing relationship between emotion and motion, right?
There's only one letter difference.
(29:13):
And so stopping meaning and letting that emotion move through your body,
moving with it, nailing it, whether it's writing or speaking,
and then something else comes up, then something else is revealed.
Sometimes there's a clarity. So that's, that's more how I would describe it.
Yeah, I think that's tremendous. I think a lot of people can relate to that
(29:35):
probably more than what I used to say. Who knows?
And so I'm guessing that it was your personal strong beliefs that led you down the path of...
Taoism and Buddhism versus the other way around where you developed your beliefs
as a result of experiencing.
What's the right chicken or the egg on that? I had experiences that no one in
(29:58):
my circle could explain.
So I went out to figure out what those were.
And that led me to first more of the Western occult esoteric arts and then more Buddhism and Taoism.
You believed that there There had to be some better answers than what you've
been instructed to up to this point in time, right?
You had to believe that you were capable of being happier and a better quality
(30:22):
of life than what you were experiencing.
So there had to have been something else to keep in your movement.
I mean, it was even deeper than that. It was like this question of what the fuck is reality?
People can't even answer that question. From a young age, I was very interested in what are dreams?
What is the meaning of all of this? Like I was really asking like the bigger,
(30:45):
bigger questions into the nature of reality.
And, and, you know, I, I didn't have any adults that could answer that.
So luckily there are people that have explored these questions for much longer
in the Eastern tradition than in the Western tradition.
So that's what led me into that. But I, I just, I had experiences that people
couldn't explain. I had visions. Yeah.
(31:07):
I had premonitions. I saw things that would come true and then would come true.
And I wanted to understand why, what was that?
And now I'm less interested in understanding it and more interested in just
accepting it as a gift and using it in a way that helps people.
But at the time, I really wanted to understand what is this.
(31:28):
And so speaking of on what this is and tough times and beliefs,
what were the different and thoughts and beliefs that kept you pushing through
the challenging times as you're figuring all this stuff out?
It's a great question. I think there was something inside of me that just knew
there had to be more, that just wouldn't settle for a weaker, incomplete answer.
(31:56):
And it's not like I've figured it all out now, but it really led me into this
other world of spirituality and spiritual practice.
I was raised Catholic and, you know, we went to the, I went to Catholic,
you know, school and religious education and the nuns there were mean,
they were mean, they were bullies.
And I just remember thinking like, I don't want to be like that.
(32:20):
Nothing against the Christian and Catholic fake, then there's a lot of beauty in it.
And I can definitely see why people incorporate some aspects into it or totally
believe that's totally fine.
But for me, my experience of it was like, no, this can't be right.
So yeah, there was a deep feeling like there had to be more.
(32:41):
And that compelled me forward into the unknown.
And so as we get to wrap this up here, so now that you've entered into the unknown.
How did you now then figure out, because at some point, like you said,
you know, you recognize that you're this, you're not going to figure it all out.
And let's be honest, you want to get wins and figure things out along the way.
(33:01):
But once you figure it out, so to speak, well, then what?
Yeah, we want to figure things out. Then we don't because we always want to
have something to look forward to the next day and keep us motivated for more
and then the stuff that's going to come down the road, right?
Yeah. So how do you just now know what's the right path for you?
Is it a certain kind of set of beliefs? Chiefs, you've established yourself.
(33:22):
You are very comfortable. Hey, this is who I am now. This is what I do.
This is my business. This is how I run my life. This is how I am with my kids.
What are your couple of things that you kind of say to yourself that got you
to that place to just be like, I am what I am and it's cool?
Yeah, it's a process, first of all. And thank you for acknowledging that the complexity of it.
There are a few things that I always go back to, yeah? And movement is one of them,
(33:46):
whether it's fitness or more of tai chi qigong moving meditation type things
because i feel like that allows me to see and feel things in a new light and
in a way that's uplifting and empowering.
Time in nature is so important for me and that's you know something that helps
(34:07):
me stay on the path and knowing who I am, that original context.
And so that's been weaved into my life. And yeah,
and then meditation as well is something that helps me be clear because I think
as much as we like to cling to certainty and having a set pattern.
(34:29):
Life is so much more complex than that.
And so we need more a way of being that will help us navigate. So, yeah.
The movement helps me self-regulate, the meditation helps me be curious,
and the connection to nature keeps me in awe and keeps me humble so that I can
(34:50):
stay open to what might emerge.
And those are really like my three, there's more things within each of those
larger buckets, but those are my three things that I'm very diligent about weaving
into my life and the life of my children as well.
Well, normally I would, at the end here, interject kind of a little summary
of a couple of things, But you just did that.
(35:11):
So I don't want to alter that being the last thought.
I think that seems like a really great time now. You kind of talked about some
of your professional focus, which, look, we have a professional relationship as well.
You've helped me to understand this human suit. For the listeners that say,
hey, you know, look, this guy's obviously taking the time to understand stuff,
(35:31):
work through things, get a working knowledge, not just a textbook knowledge of stuff.
And I think I could learn from him or whatever. Trevor, who are the types of
people that resonate with you, that you want to hear from, that seem to work out best?
And how do they get ahold of you? Thanks for asking. Yeah. I have a online coaching
program called Breathe, Move, Nourish.
(35:52):
And I love supporting burned out mothers who feel overwhelmed,
undersupported, and are looking for a more gentle, holistic way to feel safe
and strong and powerful in their body.
So I work with a lot of women in
their 40s often mothers often exhausted and
(36:14):
feeling very disoriented not at home in their body or their lives and I you
know often they felt stuck for a long time sometimes decades and I love working
with mothers in particular mothers that are open into this more holistic approach.
I still like lifting heavy weights for myself and for my students as well.
(36:39):
It's just not, it's not who I, you know, it's not that- Own it, own it, embrace it.
Don't try to make everybody happy. Make you happy right now.
Well, there's lots of people that do that, you know? But the-
Elegance of Tai Chi, Qigong, and developmental movement to help people get unstuck
(37:02):
is really powerful and unique.
So that's kind of what I focus on, especially at first when working with students.
So yeah, my website is purestrength.nyc.
My Instagram handle is at bmn.coach, stands for breathe, move, nourish, bmn.coach.
And yeah, if anyone is interested in learning more, I have
(37:23):
a free pdf for mothers
that feel overwhelmed and want to just get started and and
start feeling better in their body and if anyone listening messages me just
message me mom mom and i will i will happily send it to you that's fantastic
and obviously we're going to post the instructions as well right so that people
(37:45):
can you know can click over and get you as well and uh look i would tell
you it's really worth checking out it's definitely a nice blend
of a variety of different philosophies and modalities that
are a student focused approach and i
would tell you that you know as you know i'm going to say that the changes in
the world are just getting started my friend that game being rewarded is very
(38:10):
much going to change right and so i think that's also going to be an important
thing because like even you know even rewards in the next aren't necessarily
they're going to look in the form of material.
But, you know, believe me, you know, your sisters, everyone is going to look
at you with plenty of pride, my friend.
I'm excited for your future. And I cannot thank you. By the way,
(38:31):
your current president is badass. Let me be clear on that.
I'm just simply saying your future is going to be even more awesome. All right.
So thank you because I know you got to get going. So we're going to wrap here.
I cannot thank you enough for really being vulnerable and deep in some places
that I hadn't expected you to go to.
I hope listeners that, But you're able to find some things that helped you to
better identify, put some words to some things, and bring a smile to the face,
(38:53):
make you feel a little bit more comfortable in your skin.
Anything that helps you have a better day is a win.
So thanks for listening. Thank you.
Thank you for joining us on another episode of Understanding the Science of You.
And I am joined today by Jonathan Angelilli. Did I get that correct?
Angelilli. Yep. Awesome.
Sweet. And I'm really excited about today's conversation, right?
Because Understanding the Science of You is all about being able to find the
(00:20):
access to the information to get comfortable in your own skin by having a real talk.
And I think that there's a shortage of the variety of what masculinity can look
like, or what guy talk can look like.
And so I think it's really important for, you know, Johnny or the UNH today
that we're going to sit down and have a conversation that I think both in a
(00:41):
UNI would have benefited from being able to have access to in younger years.
Even if it was just overhearing it and understanding that that was out there
and this is how there's a type of guy that this is, or that it doesn't make
you any less of a guy or any less masculine to be this way or that way.
Right. And so I really appreciate and want to thank you in advance for being
willing to look, be vulnerable. Right.
(01:03):
And, you know, we're not going to say, obviously say anything that's going to
make, that's going to embarrass anybody here, but you're still in the less,
you're letting people into your private life. Right.
And, you know, as guys, we're not, we're not taught to just sit,
you know, let everybody in and be vulnerable and stuff like that.
So I just want And thank you for joining us here today, allowing you to tell
your story and be vulnerable so that people can relate to you.
(01:25):
And at the end of this, smile and feel better about themselves because of what
they learned from you. So that's cool with you.
It's very cool. Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to have this conversation.
All right. So I gave a longer intro than I intended there.
So let me, why don't I just then give you a chance to let the listeners understand you, right?
(01:48):
What do you want to share about them so they can kind of feel like they've walked
in your shoes a bit to understand what you're saying?
Sure. So I'm 43 years old. I'm a father of two amazing children.
I've been a personal trainer and wellness coach for 23 years.
I have been living in recovery and sober for 22 years.
(02:11):
And movement, meditation, and nature
connection were really the three keys to help me
save myself from this this
path of self-destruction which is a very
common rite of passage for men to go through when they're
when they're young perhaps we'll talk about that I serve mostly mothers I love
(02:31):
serving women I a mama's boy confessed I have three sisters and my mother and
the four of them really shaped my childhood so, so much.
So I certainly don't ever claim to speak for mankind in any way,
because I, my whole life, and I know you can relate with this,
(02:53):
and I'm sure other people can too,
I've always identified more with women and their thoughts and sensibilities.
And I can pretend, and I have male friends, but it was always much harder and much more of an effort.
And yeah, so that's a little bit about me. Yeah, I grew up in Queens,
lived in Manhattan for 20 years.
(03:13):
I've had my own personal training in wellness for almost 20 years.
And I currently spend a lot of time up in Montreal. I do strength training for
a professional dance company up there, which is really fun.
And yeah, I'm thrilled to be here and happy to answer any questions.
Awesome. So we're going to go back to your background here because I think there's
(03:37):
some some fun stuff that I want to bring into it to paint the picture.
But I think it was interesting that you brought up the aspect regarding the
feminine influence of the female influence in your life.
You know, and I just did a chuckle about that because most of the things that
I've learned that are supposed to be like,
guy-to-guy stuff, I was taught by a woman or a female, right?
(03:57):
The woman, the adult who was responsible for onboarding me into this world taught
me, is the one who taught me how to shave, not the guy who was responsible for onboarding me, right?
And it was a girl I was dating who taught me that when you look at the car,
where that little arrow is above the gas, it tells you what side of the car
the gas gauge, the gas thing is on, so when you pull in, right?
(04:19):
Never knew that in my life it had been like been driving for 20 years before i learned that.
I know you know in a in a fee in a in
a and a another girl i dated taught me
how to drive a stick i mean like
to your point there's just a certain there's a there's a certain i think sometimes
teaching relationship that can be easier especially for guys that are wired
(04:42):
differently you know whether they want to call that neurodivergent being sensitive
just being connected to energy, right? That makes that type of relationship.
But I want to, but it's even going to be, but this, I want to create the contrast
a bit more here because that's obviously where the, where the,
where the knowledge comes is in your journey and understanding for you to get
to where you get to, got to, it wasn't because there was all the proper,
(05:05):
the breadcrumbs were laid out for you and everything made sense, right?
You, you grew up in Queens, New York, Mark, describe the neighborhood.
Yeah, we were solidly middle class, you know, towards the low part of middle class growing up.
I did have the privilege of growing up in a two-parent household with a lot
(05:27):
of love and other stuff too, but a lot of love.
And in a beautiful neighborhood of Queens. It's not what most people envision
when they think of Queens.
So it was a beautiful neighborhood, but I was born in 1980. 80.
And yeah, the city was not in the best shape then.
And, and I was, I was pretty sheltered. I went to a private school out in Long
(05:48):
Island and yeah, I just, I chafed at school.
I was a mover, you know, I would have been the hunter warrior scout of the tribe.
I just needed to move. I needed sensory input and motor output more than a lot of other kids.
And I excelled there, but I I didn't really, you know, I did okay with grades,
but I always just felt, you know, a bit imprisoned at school.
(06:11):
So, yeah, so it was a solidly middle class upbringing for sure.
But there were plenty of challenges.
Would you say, was your neighborhood full of...
A lot of different backgrounds, ethnicities, cultures, religion,
or was it pretty much like, hey, everybody kind of went to the same school.
Everybody went to the same church. What was that like?
(06:33):
Yeah. I mean, it's pretty diverse. It's all relative, right?
Queens County is the most diverse county in the world.
There's more languages spoken in Queens County than anywhere else in the world.
My neighborhood in particular was a lot of Italian and Irish at the time.
And now there's a a lot more Asians and it's become much more diverse people of color.
(06:54):
But when I was growing up, it was, it wasn't the most diverse place in Queens. That's for sure.
So the strong Italian and Irish
influence in your neighborhood is what introduced you to Taoism? Is that?
Okay. All right. So here we go, folks. Now we understand where the,
where the contrast lies.
So, all right. So here you are, you're right. You are, you know,
(07:17):
I think that anybody could but I think the thing to envision,
you know, a lot of older movies about New York and kind of picture you and your
neighborhood and that kind of a stuff. Right.
So now that we've kind of got this and, you know, I picture you in like newsies
or whatever, I got your little cap and you're, you know, you can throw on your
papers around, you know, it's not it, but you know, that's just how I envisioned
you. And it makes me smile. Right.
(07:38):
Right. And so now how do you go from that to, right.
To, you know, understand even being introduced to some, some Eastern traditions,
decent thinking, I don't know
what the right terminology, and then kind of going down that other path.
And how did that kind of compare to what you were taught as,
you know, what it meant to be a man, you know? Right.
(07:59):
Well, in 1985, I walked into the movie theater and saw the Karate Kid.
And I walked out of that movie theater and begged my parents to take me to the
closest dojo that they could find and ended up training in Shotokan karate and
getting my black belt by age 10.
(08:21):
I was extremely dedicated to it. It was really formative. And obviously that's
not Taoist culture, but it was my first entry into Asian culture.
And I didn't really understand or learn the concept of Taoism until my 20s.
But I feel like I was very much on that path around age five or so.
(08:45):
If you haven't seen the movie, Ralph Macchio just feels like he totally doesn't
belong. long. And he moves from New Jersey to California.
And that was how I felt, right? I was the only boy in my family.
I was always the black sheep.
I was always kind of didn't fit in, didn't fit in at school, like I was saying.
And once I started training karate, something inside of me clicked.
(09:06):
I had, you know, one of my first deep spiritual experiences doing training in karate.
I had vivid dreams, you know, and visions and things that I consider now deeply
spiritual at the time when I was a kid, it just seemed like cool stuff that
was happening to me when I was asleep.
But my first kind of more waking vision and experience of a deep spirituality
(09:28):
that is underneath everything that we see all this physical was in karate class
when my sensei, who I really looked up to,
told us to hold our hands out
to the side and that we were going to hold our hands out to
the side for the entire class and it's a 45 minute class and
i was seven years old and i mean the amount the emotional roller coaster i went
(09:50):
through of like i have to do this thing right gonna be impossible but i have
to do it and you know it was so hard but then it wasn't hard something clicked.
Beyond the burden beyond the doubt the frustration and the next thing i know
my sense it was like like, okay, class is over.
And I looked and the clock had gone through it. And my arms had been out the whole time.
(10:15):
We did the whole class with my arms outstretched.
And that was my first experience of like, okay, wait a minute.
What just happened? Like.
I do not have a reference or understanding, nor do I feel like there's anyone
in my life that can help me put this into context.
And so that was the beginning of my journey, I think, into trying to understand
(10:39):
what is time, what is matter, what is spirit, what is actually possible,
what is this ability that the body provides as a gateway into much deeper,
profound things that the more reason,
logic newer aspects of the brain cannot compute
so that that was my entry into
(11:00):
you know any type of eastern culture and
then i really got into buddhism and hold on hold
on this is this pretty deep for a five-year-old right like usually five-year-old
you know the movies you know the depth is kit kat reese's sour patch kids right
like i mean that's a tough decision you're trying to understand things in a
very and a very different level so at this point it was Was this embraced with
(11:23):
where you were going compared to your upbringing?
Are you continuing to be the black sheep as a result of you going this way?
Yeah, I mean, I was still on the outside doing all the things,
but I couldn't keep up with my sisters because my sisters are brilliant.
Maybe we're all brilliant, but they're brilliant in a very rewarded kind of way.
My oldest sister went to Wharton and then Harvard Law, graduated top of her class.
(11:46):
And then my next sister went to Cornell and then NYU Medical and is an eye surgeon.
And they both went to Exeter, which is arguably the best boarding school in the country.
I could not play that game like that.
But here I was, the boy of an Italian-American family.
(12:07):
And I had to find something.
And that process was really ugly, frankly, because I couldn't measure up to
the way that I thought I was supposed to.
That's, I think, where a lot like this not fitting in, not belonging is what
led me into this dark rite of passage with drugs.
And so that was my path. You know, it wasn't like I decided at seven,
(12:31):
like, oh, my God, I'm going to be a martial artist for the rest of my life.
And this is what I'm doing.
I knew I had discovered something really important that I cherish still to this
day that still guides me like a light to this day. but it wasn't like the whole
path was illuminated then. And I knew exactly what I was going to do.
You know, you get these key moments in life and they, they, they come and then
(12:55):
they go and, and you gotta, you gotta pay attention and cherish them and weave
them into your personal mythology and your stories so that you remember them.
And, and that's what I did. And that was, you know, that, that served as a light
post as I went into this very, very dark rite of passage through self-destruction as a teenager.
(13:15):
And so I want to try to level set with the, or at least get a baseline with the audience.
And I'm trying to think to myself as like, all right, growing up right between
the age of five and then going in down the path of drugs, vices, whatever, right?
It's a very young impressionable age for boys, right?
And trying to understand kind of what it means to be a man, right?
(13:39):
So I just kind of want to understand that for us in this conversation is,
did you grow up with, hey, guys don't cry, you suck it up, hey,
it's all about physical strength, you're supposed to be the breadwinner, right?
I mean, those are kind of like the things that were said to me,
you know, back in the day.
Yeah, for sure. I mean, even though I went to a private school,
and it was a wonderful school, I was picked on a lot by the older boys because
(14:01):
they could feel that I was not like them.
I had what you might say is more of a sensitive or feminine energy about me.
And I think to some degree, boys always test other boys, but especially when
they send something different. They test it for weakness.
If we really want to be reductionist girls, the social Social pressure is either
(14:24):
be fuckable or be invisible, right?
And that's awful, right? You either have to be really hot and that's the value
you provide or you got to disappear and get out of the way.
For boys, it's be strong or die, which is as bad.
And, you know, when you're different, you get tested.
(14:45):
So I had older kids push me down the stairs, spit me in my face, you know, harass.
I was a beast on the athletic field. I just had an extra gear that other kids didn't have.
And so I would sometimes beat kids that were one or two years older than me,
(15:07):
which is like kind of a big deal when you're eight, nine, 10,
11 years old. And they hated that.
So I was, and I also, even though I was like sensitive, I wasn't submissive,
you know, And like a lot of boys, I was trying on different roles that I saw,
different models that I saw of masculinity. So I was trying to figure it out.
(15:28):
Luckily, I didn't stop at any one, and I kept on realizing these are all masks,
and I need to find what's unique to me.
It was a lot of trial and error, but when you don't fit in the mold,
you are tested, and you have to be strong or die.
People find different ways of being strong, and for me, a lot of it was around
(15:50):
athletics and fighting even.
You know like I I would use my martial arts
at a certain point because in one of
my best friends to this day you know in third
grade he was like he probably outweighed me by 30 pounds you know and he had
two brothers right so he would and a single mom so he was coming from you know
(16:13):
a very masculine energy culture and he's very sensitive too and that's why we
ended up becoming great friends but it all started with this fight.
He wanted to test me and he outweighed me by like 30 pounds,
even though we were in the same grade and he was tall, a whole head taller than me.
And it was a draw and all the boys watched and, and then he respected me,
you know, and now he's one of my closest, closest friends, but you know,
(16:35):
that's the way of, of boys and boyhood.
And there's, there's nothing wrong with that to a degree. It's that it's the
lack of healthy male models that can help guide that, create a container for
that, that really was missing.
And that's when I went into my quest with, you know, I had these answers that
I felt like no one in my circle could answer.
My father couldn't answer it. My uncles couldn't answer it. My sisters couldn't
(16:58):
answer it. My teachers couldn't answer it. I had mentors at school.
I was pretty privileged.
There were people around me that were knowledgeable, but I knew they,
I would ask and they didn't have the answer to these questions.
So I had to kind of go and figure it out on my own. And that's where the appeal
of Buddhism and self-exploration and meditation got into like something called
astral projection, which is not something I would really recommend people doing.
(17:21):
But it was my way of trying to answer this question of like,
what is real? What is actually possible?
Okay. Wow. You unloaded a lot more than I was expecting right there. That was that was.
That was tremendous. First of all, I want to first say sensitive,
not submissive. I think that's just a very important point, I think,
for anybody to understand, regardless of gender.
There's a very big difference between those two.
(17:43):
Then the other part is, let's walk us through that healthy step. So people are people.
Everybody's wired to be different, et cetera. So roughhousing,
quote unquote, being boys in that respect or being masculine,
there is an element where it looks, if someone's attacking the village,
somebody's got to step up and protect the village.
You know what I mean? So you've got to have people that are willing to do that.
(18:04):
But to your point, how do you take that and also manage that in a healthy way
and have it where then, right?
Like what would be your – maybe I'll say it this way. What would be your advice
to young men today who are like – who want to be able to say,
look, man, I like this. Like you, I was in athletics.
I was brought up that way, right? Like I was a roughhouser, right?
And so – but I didn't understand how to take that into a healthy way, right? Right.
(18:27):
So what advice would you have given a young me to say, hey, this is cool when you're 10 or 12.
Once you start to get to here, here's how you want to adjust yourself and understanding as a male.
I mean, if we're talking about the transition of, you know, from child to teenager and adult,
I think there's a reason why many, if not all, indigenous cultures had specific
(18:52):
rites of passage right at that moment.
I felt deeply that something inside of me needed to die, and I didn't have a
mentor to really guide me into that spiritual thing that needed to die to make space for this adult.
The same tool that can cut someone down can perform surgery or forge a new path
(19:15):
to somewhere wonderful.
So there's nothing wrong with the tools of rough play and physicality.
They're absolutely essential to our development, in my understanding,
and that's something I've been studying now for close to 30 years,
how to transition them to be of benefit, to be of service to your community, to your tribe.
(19:37):
That's where the rites of passage come in, and that's the key.
I don't have a single thing to say to a young person that's facing that.
I would say that the pain inside of you is real. Something does need to die,
and it's not you. you, it's not your body.
I really flirted with self-destruction because I was trying to figure out a
(19:58):
way and find my own way to make space for this adult that wanted to be born.
And it didn't have to be as dangerous or as irresponsible as it was or harmful
to my relationships and myself, but I didn't have that model,
that container, that mentor, that lineage to do it.
(20:19):
I'm a huge fan, just generally speaking, of wilderness rites of passage.
So finding a school, I did a vision quest.
And if there's one time where I feel like, okay, maybe this is when I...
There's no moment where you become a man.
But there's moments where I think you realize how much you've grown and you
see yourself in a new light.
And that was one of them. And I did this vision quest with an amazing school
(20:43):
called the School of Lost Orders. They operate out of California,
but they help facilitate these kinds of rites of passage.
And there's other wilderness schools, four earth elements, education, the tracker school.
Luckily, there's more, you know, awareness and more schools now that offer these kinds of things.
I think the original context for our humanity, when we don't have that connection
(21:09):
to nature, were like animals in a zoo.
Animals in captivity do all kinds of awful, harmful things that they never would
do if they were in the wild.
So, you know, if I did have one general advice, particularly for the teenage years,
was getting into wilderness schools and wilderness rites of passage as a way
(21:29):
to help you transition from one world to the next. I think that's tremendous.
I think that just to add to that would be, I think, you know,
helping to understand the difference between I own this land and it is mine to do what I want with.
And I'm a steward of this land responsible for all of its patrons and all of
(21:51):
us living in harmony and the proper ecosystem, right? And understanding that's a responsibility.
And I think that that's a type of maturity, right? I don't know if there's ever
a spot, there's no doubt, there's definitely feelings and signs of maturity that need to happen.
And I think that that's a maturing of that understanding is really lacking out
there for us, quite frankly. Yeah, no.
Pop culture and the movies sure as heck wasn't it, right? Like I struggled like you did, right?
(22:15):
As funny as you're saying is that I didn't necessarily think of myself as ever
being singled out or tested, but as you were saying that, I was like,
oh crap, you know, I really was. But like yourself, I wasn't submissive.
And quite frankly, because of the way I grew up, I grew up as a bully because
that was my defense mechanism from being sensitive.
I was told, I mean, I should have given you a girl's name so you would have
been tougher, right? Like that was my friend from third grade.
(22:37):
I really only made that connection recently when he went through a very difficult
time and I was able to be a support for him, but he's very sensitive,
but his, his shield was being the bully as well. That's very common.
Yeah. And then, you know, then of course you don't feel great about that later on in your life.
And so here we are, right? I can't do anything about what's done in the past,
except for say, Hey, I walked in the shoes of being a bully and an a-hole so
(22:59):
that I know how to counteract that later on in life and do better.
I don't know. So that's calling myself out and transforming it to good.
Now I want to kind of segue into this next chapter, but you used this term earlier,
that game that gets in a rewarded way.
Right. And I think that's really, really important. I think that's an important
thing with both understanding the science of you, just the concept of that.
(23:20):
The concept, I think that's a mature understanding of the world and a mature
understanding of what type of options are available, right?
Because we're brought up understanding like, hey, there's a system.
You go to school, you do this, you go to work, you get a job, right? it, right?
And as a result, to your point, even if you want to be different,
one of the rubs that I've found has been, look, I may want to be different,
(23:43):
but I still always have to face the.
Practicalities of being in the material world that requires money to have a
place to live, to have an automobile for food, things of that nature, right?
And so that does kind of govern things to an extent or create boundaries that
may not be inherently feel good and natural.
You had to have had a big catalyst to go against that and to keep you going
(24:06):
and so how did you decide to do for yourself that may be the game and by the
way you know i'm not you know that
there's no way i'm going to let you just leave saying that that game and that
you know your sisters had a one-up on you or anything like that we're going
to revisit that and close it on a positive note you know pulling the friend
card there but until we get to that spot.
(24:27):
How did you decide that that's not the game i want to play right like
i i don't it's not worth those type of rewards of
giving up myself to play that game and then getting and trying
to get at peace with that in that journey it wasn't a
decision in my head it was a knowing in my bones you know the rite of passage
i went through wasn't like i felt compelled to do it like it felt it felt like
(24:50):
this is your only way this is the way fuck everyone fuck anyone who tries to tell me shit,
I have to burn and break things to understand what's going on right now.
I have to test the limits.
And it really wasn't a conscious decision.
It reached a certain point where I think there was no point to go burn,
(25:13):
like I have to see it through to the other side.
I don't know if that answers your question, but I, you know,
I just knew I had to find a different path that made sense to me.
Yeah, no, it takes us where we need to get to. And so the feelings, right?
This is a big thing. This is one of the things that was hard for me was being
able to put words to feelings and even understanding different skills,
(25:33):
abilities, because I would have expected things to be maybe more magnified in
the way that I saw them, felt them, experienced them.
And in many cases, things are much more subtle than that, right? Right.
And so therefore, when I listen to people, people say, well,
you know, I just felt this way. You know what I mean? No, I don't know what you mean.
Right. Like I spent lots of time trying to understand my feels.
And so for those that are listening, when you say it just felt like the way.
(25:57):
Right. Like I guess kind of give maybe give a contrast when you say that and
you think about how your body feels,
when it doesn't feel like the way, how do you kind of know and how would you
put some words to that compared to when it does feel more like the way and being
able to put some words to that to help people better identify those little subtle
feelings that they may be going through?
It's a great question. There's a great term that's not so well-known,
(26:21):
but it's called interoception.
Intero is like inward, inception, like perception, like perceiving.
So your ability to understand the sensations that your body is giving you,
are you hungry? Are you thirsty?
Are you angry? Are you sad? Are you afraid?
Or more likely, a mix of those things and what is the most important thing that
(26:43):
needs to be addressed right now.
Interoception is something that can be trained, is wonderful,
through stillness practice, through meditation, through primal movement,
developmental movement, rolling around on the ground and relaxation techniques
that have a lot of sensory input.
It's possible to work with an occupational therapist. As a teenager,
I feel like you're just learning where your ass is from your elbow.
(27:05):
So I was a passionate motherfucker.
Like I really had strong beliefs and I was born that way.
I wouldn't necessarily go around and preach them, but I felt things deeply.
And I don't know if that's a function of just the way that I was born or the
fact that I grew up with three sisters and a really strong matriarch and talking
(27:27):
about our feelings was encouraged.
I don't know if that's helpful, but I do think that it is something that people
can learn to read their body better and better.
And some of the most beautiful and important moments of my life,
sort of how I met my wife is a great example.
My body spoke to me in a way that was just unbelievable and hard for the rational,
(27:48):
logical mind to process.
But I had enough experience in trusting it that I would follow its lead, you know? own.
Yeah. I mean, do you feel like sinking feelings in the stomach?
Are they like pains in the chest?
Are they twitches in the arm? I guess, do you have anything like that,
(28:09):
that is one of those things that gets your attention that when your body does it, it's an indicator?
It's a great question. I don't really experience it like that.
I'm more experienced like this, sensation, drop into it, feel it, thought arises.
So it's less about like, okay, whenever this happens here, I know,
(28:30):
you know, that I'm feeling this.
I mean, this is an audio podcast. So I'll say, you know, whenever I feel pressure
in my heart, I know I'm sad.
I've felt that before. That is a thing that I've experienced,
but sadness can manifest in other parts of my body. Maybe that's just specific to me.
I, my, my guess is it's not, but yeah, so it's more like feel the sensation.
(28:52):
Don't escape it. Don't try to like hide from it.
Breathe into it. Give yourself permission. Let it move through you.
And then what comes up right after that?
I'm always telling my students the amazing relationship between emotion and motion, right?
There's only one letter difference.
(29:13):
And so stopping meaning and letting that emotion move through your body,
moving with it, nailing it, whether it's writing or speaking,
and then something else comes up, then something else is revealed.
Sometimes there's a clarity. So that's, that's more how I would describe it.
Yeah, I think that's tremendous. I think a lot of people can relate to that
(29:35):
probably more than what I used to say. Who knows?
And so I'm guessing that it was your personal strong beliefs that led you down the path of...
Taoism and Buddhism versus the other way around where you developed your beliefs
as a result of experiencing.
What's the right chicken or the egg on that? I had experiences that no one in
(29:58):
my circle could explain.
So I went out to figure out what those were.
And that led me to first more of the Western occult esoteric arts and then more Buddhism and Taoism.
You believed that there There had to be some better answers than what you've
been instructed to up to this point in time, right?
You had to believe that you were capable of being happier and a better quality
(30:22):
of life than what you were experiencing.
So there had to have been something else to keep in your movement.
I mean, it was even deeper than that. It was like this question of what the fuck is reality?
People can't even answer that question. From a young age, I was very interested in what are dreams?
What is the meaning of all of this? Like I was really asking like the bigger,
(30:45):
bigger questions into the nature of reality.
And, and, you know, I, I didn't have any adults that could answer that.
So luckily there are people that have explored these questions for much longer
in the Eastern tradition than in the Western tradition.
So that's what led me into that. But I, I just, I had experiences that people
couldn't explain. I had visions. Yeah.
(31:07):
I had premonitions. I saw things that would come true and then would come true.
And I wanted to understand why, what was that?
And now I'm less interested in understanding it and more interested in just
accepting it as a gift and using it in a way that helps people.
But at the time, I really wanted to understand what is this.
(31:28):
And so speaking of on what this is and tough times and beliefs,
what were the different and thoughts and beliefs that kept you pushing through
the challenging times as you're figuring all this stuff out?
It's a great question. I think there was something inside of me that just knew
there had to be more, that just wouldn't settle for a weaker, incomplete answer.
(31:56):
And it's not like I've figured it all out now, but it really led me into this
other world of spirituality and spiritual practice.
I was raised Catholic and, you know, we went to the, I went to Catholic,
you know, school and religious education and the nuns there were mean,
they were mean, they were bullies.
And I just remember thinking like, I don't want to be like that.
(32:20):
Nothing against the Christian and Catholic fake, then there's a lot of beauty in it.
And I can definitely see why people incorporate some aspects into it or totally
believe that's totally fine.
But for me, my experience of it was like, no, this can't be right.
So yeah, there was a deep feeling like there had to be more.
(32:41):
And that compelled me forward into the unknown.
And so as we get to wrap this up here, so now that you've entered into the unknown.
How did you now then figure out, because at some point, like you said,
you know, you recognize that you're this, you're not going to figure it all out.
And let's be honest, you want to get wins and figure things out along the way.
(33:01):
But once you figure it out, so to speak, well, then what?
Yeah, we want to figure things out. Then we don't because we always want to
have something to look forward to the next day and keep us motivated for more
and then the stuff that's going to come down the road, right?
Yeah. So how do you just now know what's the right path for you?
Is it a certain kind of set of beliefs? Chiefs, you've established yourself.
(33:22):
You are very comfortable. Hey, this is who I am now. This is what I do.
This is my business. This is how I run my life. This is how I am with my kids.
What are your couple of things that you kind of say to yourself that got you
to that place to just be like, I am what I am and it's cool?
Yeah, it's a process, first of all. And thank you for acknowledging that the complexity of it.
There are a few things that I always go back to, yeah? And movement is one of them,
(33:46):
whether it's fitness or more of tai chi qigong moving meditation type things
because i feel like that allows me to see and feel things in a new light and
in a way that's uplifting and empowering.
Time in nature is so important for me and that's you know something that helps
(34:07):
me stay on the path and knowing who I am, that original context.
And so that's been weaved into my life. And yeah,
and then meditation as well is something that helps me be clear because I think
as much as we like to cling to certainty and having a set pattern.
(34:29):
Life is so much more complex than that.
And so we need more a way of being that will help us navigate. So, yeah.
The movement helps me self-regulate, the meditation helps me be curious,
and the connection to nature keeps me in awe and keeps me humble so that I can
(34:50):
stay open to what might emerge.
And those are really like my three, there's more things within each of those
larger buckets, but those are my three things that I'm very diligent about weaving
into my life and the life of my children as well.
Well, normally I would, at the end here, interject kind of a little summary
of a couple of things, But you just did that.
(35:11):
So I don't want to alter that being the last thought.
I think that seems like a really great time now. You kind of talked about some
of your professional focus, which, look, we have a professional relationship as well.
You've helped me to understand this human suit. For the listeners that say,
hey, you know, look, this guy's obviously taking the time to understand stuff,
(35:31):
work through things, get a working knowledge, not just a textbook knowledge of stuff.
And I think I could learn from him or whatever. Trevor, who are the types of
people that resonate with you, that you want to hear from, that seem to work out best?
And how do they get ahold of you? Thanks for asking. Yeah. I have a online coaching
program called Breathe, Move, Nourish.
(35:52):
And I love supporting burned out mothers who feel overwhelmed,
undersupported, and are looking for a more gentle, holistic way to feel safe
and strong and powerful in their body.
So I work with a lot of women in
their 40s often mothers often exhausted and
(36:14):
feeling very disoriented not at home in their body or their lives and I you
know often they felt stuck for a long time sometimes decades and I love working
with mothers in particular mothers that are open into this more holistic approach.
I still like lifting heavy weights for myself and for my students as well.
(36:39):
It's just not, it's not who I, you know, it's not that- Own it, own it, embrace it.
Don't try to make everybody happy. Make you happy right now.
Well, there's lots of people that do that, you know? But the-
Elegance of Tai Chi, Qigong, and developmental movement to help people get unstuck
(37:02):
is really powerful and unique.
So that's kind of what I focus on, especially at first when working with students.
So yeah, my website is purestrength.nyc.
My Instagram handle is at bmn.coach, stands for breathe, move, nourish, bmn.coach.
And yeah, if anyone is interested in learning more, I have
(37:23):
a free pdf for mothers
that feel overwhelmed and want to just get started and and
start feeling better in their body and if anyone listening messages me just
message me mom mom and i will i will happily send it to you that's fantastic
and obviously we're going to post the instructions as well right so that people
(37:45):
can you know can click over and get you as well and uh look i would tell
you it's really worth checking out it's definitely a nice blend
of a variety of different philosophies and modalities that
are a student focused approach and i
would tell you that you know as you know i'm going to say that the changes in
the world are just getting started my friend that game being rewarded is very
(38:10):
much going to change right and so i think that's also going to be an important
thing because like even you know even rewards in the next aren't necessarily
they're going to look in the form of material.
But, you know, believe me, you know, your sisters, everyone is going to look
at you with plenty of pride, my friend.
I'm excited for your future. And I cannot thank you. By the way,
(38:31):
your current president is badass. Let me be clear on that.
I'm just simply saying your future is going to be even more awesome. All right.
So thank you because I know you got to get going. So we're going to wrap here.
I cannot thank you enough for really being vulnerable and deep in some places
that I hadn't expected you to go to.
I hope listeners that, But you're able to find some things that helped you to
better identify, put some words to some things, and bring a smile to the face,
(38:53):
make you feel a little bit more comfortable in your skin.
Anything that helps you have a better day is a win.
So thanks for listening. Thank you.
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