Self-Reflection & Positivity with Todd Matzkin-Bridger

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Well, welcome to an interesting edition of Understanding the Science of You,
which is based on kind of understanding the science of me or walking through
understanding the science of me.
However, this episode kind of turns out we're going to find out.
So I thought today would be, you know, would be interesting to have have me
actually be the guest and my good friend, Todd Mad Dog, Matt's can bridge or turn and be the host.

(00:25):
Now, the reason why I asked Todd to do this is because, first and foremost,
he enjoys messing up, right?
And so that really makes for a good question and answer session.
And two, look, even myself, I don't always recognize change or progress or things

(00:47):
that are different about myself.
And as a result, I don't always give myself credit for differences or things
or notice or whatever else. And so this is also an exercise of self-reflection, right?
By asking Todd to kind of talk to, ask some questions because the reason,
now did you explain Todd?
Todd knows me strictly from the corporate world, right?
And so Todd knew me in various stages of my corporate life, various personas

(01:09):
in my corporate life, various temperaments within my corporate life, right? Right.
And it'd be hard pressed, I think, to find somebody who spent as much time with
me, studying me, figuring out how to navigate me without catching shrapnel, take your pick.
And, you know, as well as also, you know, like I said, having an enjoyment of,

(01:32):
you know, poking the bear, so to speak, as well every now and then.
And so I thought that, you know, it would be a good contrast as well for people
to understand kind of what I, you know, what I was and who I am.
And so I talk about walking in different shoes and being a, you know,
self-proclaimed breaker of molds and builder of bridges that really does come
from living in two very different realities and, and both being,

(01:54):
you know, supported and then, you know, having my challenges living in the same world, just,
you know, just living in it and experiencing it from a different reality.
So anyway and so you don't know what you don't know right and there's and so
this is a way so you know asking Todd to kind of ask questions and saying hey
man so what happened all of a sudden you were here next thing we know we get
like an email that says you were gone.

(02:16):
You know I get like a random text or something that was like hey you want to
like you know meet up for lunch or something and then you know I don't know
six or seven years later you hit me up some podcasts and you're like and so
then here we are right so I don't know how if Todd if if there's anything you
want to kind of add to, to that introduction,
but you know, if anybody is, if you can't tell Todd has his, what I will call his,

(02:38):
trademark devilish slash shit-eating grin
that you know that he that i i know him for right
now so i'm uh that i'm gonna you know kind of pause and and todd let you jump
in here and you know take it away or add what you want well yeah i think the
viewers of this should strap on their seat belt pull over because you know we're
about to go on a wild ride safety first you know so So, no, we're going to enjoy this.

(03:05):
I've waited for this moment for, you know, a couple of decades,
you know, for the roles to be reversed here with no recourse for whatever questions
I may ask or things they may bring up.
We should put like a like an unedited version of this up somewhere, Graham, too.
You know, like, you know, that can be fun for the for people.

(03:26):
I'm already having a choking reaction. So who knows what kind of,
you know, reactions going on here.
What was funny, what you brought up is, you know, yeah, one day you left the corporate world.
It was like, it was just God. Someone met with me. It was like, yep, Ram's God.
I was like, okay, like, here we go.

(03:47):
And then, you know, we talked a little bit. We chatted and every now and then our pleasantries.
And then I get this opportunity to speak on your podcast. podcast,
but it should be noted that along the way, you also helped me out too.
You gave me a nice recommendation for the job I have now, which was a, which was a huge plus.
So I wanted to wait to do the podcast till after that, you know,

(04:10):
you know, just to make sure no, no issues.
But you come to me and you say, Hey, look, I've had this change from corporate
gram to this new Graham, this spiritual, you know, you know, Graham.
And, you know, the first thing I did is I went back and like,

(04:31):
okay, I want to listen to some of these podcasts.
Great, great content, Graham.
But the first thing I noticed is the glasses, the glasses, looking like Bono, you know, over there.
And like, I'm like, oh my gosh, like this guy really has changed before I even heard the words.
I was like, I could never, never see him or or picture him wearing glasses like that.

(04:55):
So I need to know what's with the glasses change and the tint,
it looks like it's a color tint.
I'm very confused here and I need to know why.
Well, I don't know why you're confused, but I can explain to you why I'm wearing these glasses.
Yeah. You know, and then from there you can figure out if you're still remaining
confused and I'll continue to answer questions.

(05:18):
So, no. So one of the things that, look, I spent a lot of time in,
besides like understanding myself, like also just dealing with health and wellness, right?
There was a lot of, you know, there was a lot of neglect that occurred,
you know, in the corporate career.
And you know and so one of
the things that i that that i had been gotten diagnosed with
along the way was this thing called erlin syndrome which of

(05:41):
which affects you know i guess we'll call
it my brain's ability the way that my the way that my brain intakes optical
information yeah i'll just leave it at that and the by applying these there
there's there's like nine different shades or whatever and there's um these
and each one and those different various shades of prisms allow,

(06:01):
you know, allow the brain to be able to process, take in the light and process information properly.
And so believe it or not, I had a different pair of these that were actually
a different shade color because that was what my brain needed at that time.
And then as it changed, it came, became this different color,
you know, and if we're being honest, I'd like nothing more than to,
you know, have my eyes healed and not wear any glasses whatsoever.
But until then, I wear these because, you know, it just helps to,

(06:25):
you know, reduce headaches and stop stuff from, like, blurring on the pages
and things of that nature.
But, yeah, it's definitely, I've gotten used to just people looking at me weird.
Like, I'm walking indoors with, you know, the glasses on or whatever.
Because people think it's like a fashion statement or something.
It's just like, no, just trying to avoid a headache and, you know,
being able to read words.
Well, that's awesome. I come at you right off the bat and you have an eye condition.

(06:49):
And so now I'm the total asshole of this podcast.
So you somehow still get me every time.
This look, this is what this is part of the deal, though, right?
Because you do know me in ways.
And it was quite funny. Look, for those that for a little bit of background
to talk about corporate ever,

(07:09):
I was I was very fortunate to experience a lot
of really cool things in the corporate world and experience and growth of the company and
being you know a driving seed you know you
know in a lot of that growth and from seeing a lot of that growth going from
you know a company with 400 people when i joined to
18 000 when i left and so you know for me to just randomly leave overnight was
kind of like uh wait a second i mean this guy was like a was like the poster

(07:31):
child you don't have to have a college degree look how great you look like you
can have this like you know you know in that structure like a great career you
know not needing that as long as you perform and blah blah blah
right and then all of a sudden poof gone
just like that right and so
you know it was it was unexpected you know for all of us so anyway so
that being said there's nothing going with just oh just for that little bit

(07:55):
of backstory there and so look i don't and i was that's where it was and so
i was thinking to myself gosh well like one more kind of things time might ask
me and i started to think i'm like i can't even remember what's life being that
person like i'm I'm like, it's going to be weird.
So anyway, so I love Ben. But what you're doing and what we're talking about
is the whole point because –.
Anyway, I think that that's the, they say leopard doesn't change its spots,

(08:18):
but I, you know, I think that, you know, anybody who knows me might,
might, might beg to differ.
Yeah. It's funny. Cause I still think of you the old way.
It's like where you haven't seen a kid since you, you know, you were 12 and
you still think of them as that 12 year old kid and they're 45,
you know, I still think of you as skinny.
I still call you skinny, you know, which is, which is great. Great.

(08:39):
And, you know, you introduced me and you said, hey, it's it's Todd,
you know, Mad Dog, you know, Matt Skin Bridger.
But do you remember what my original nickname was?
I do. I wasn't going to bring that up. Yes, I do. There was a reason why we
had to go to Mad Dog. That's right.
The original nickname was Vinnie V.

(09:01):
Yeah, it was. I was I was Vinnie Graham. and
how it started was because during the
during the interview someone interviewed me and they
said hey look hang on a second they got someone else they
started giving me a person goes hang on a second i think there's someone that
will you'll relate to better and then you come in and come to find out it was

(09:23):
all because of the height a couple short guys meeting together and then i could
relate to i could relate to more so i got the nickname mini me and you're right
at At some point in time, I think I got sick of it.
Well, yeah. I mean, as your career was growing, right?
Like it was one of those things that it's like, hey, kind of like a little brother,
right? Where it's cool to have like a big brother, little brother.

(09:44):
But at some point in time, you know, you get through college and now you're on your own life.
And you got to, you know, establish a new identity.
I love how i got mad dog because i got mad at the name and
so they just called me mad dog well no man we
had to think about like what was like because what was like the most the exact
opposite of like a mini it was right it was just you know that was that mad

(10:06):
dog that was your own thing right like i don't know because it was so not you
but it was you because you have that streak in you it just doesn't you know
it just doesn't come out the same way as it doesn't No, that's true.
I remember my excitement getting hired and my thoughts and where this career could take me.
And what I wasn't there for was obviously when you got hired.

(10:28):
And I thought maybe you could talk just a little bit and tell us a little bit
about maybe your background before.
And then what you thought of the opportunity when you first entered your,
you know, this job inside of corporate America.
Yeah. Wow. You just wanted to ask all, like, bring up all of the heartbreaks

(10:50):
from the past year, aren't you?
Try to week one in before we started just to knock me down a peg or two,
you know, give me a little bit of a slice of humble pie to have before we get started.
And I don't want to ask you about my trauma, trying to get hired when nobody
wanted to talk to me. Yeah.
So literally, you know, that was part of my, to your point, I mean,
that was part of like the story of, you know, of mine at Quicken Loans was I

(11:12):
was, at the time I was, I was dating a girl and her friend, Gina, you know, worked there.
And, and she was like, Hey, you know, we're starting up this new sales thing.
You know, I think you'd be good at it. I just started another job.
I was like, no, no, I'll be fine.
I'm good. Good. Good. You know, and I never thought about that.
And then six months later I was like, ah, maybe I, you know,
maybe I would like a change.
And, you know, cause things were going to look crazy. there are people throwing

(11:32):
stuff at each other in offices.
You know, it was kind of, you know, it's kind of like, you know,
anyway, I was like, all right, this is cool. I'm going to, I'm going to look
somewhere else. And so, but then, then.
I went for interviews and it went from one guy on, I went and had an interview
on Friday and then the guy saying, look, I know it's short notice,
but we have a class started on Monday.

(11:52):
Do you think you could make it? If, if, you know, if I could get you in to,
you know, two weeks to, you know, the, the two weeks later going,
Oh no, there was no, there was no class. We don't, what you're talking about.
And then me having a page as you know, Jay. Right. And so at this time,
you know, the way to follow up with them was to page.
Right. And so I, So it took me like paging Jay for like six months straight to get him to hire me.

(12:16):
And so finally, it wasn't so much that I got hired as much as he just caked.
He said, look, I don't know if this guy can sell for any shit,
but he's at least persistent as can be.
And so they gave me it. And so I got a job. And tying that into your other question,
I had no idea what I was trying to get. All I knew is I was trying to get a
job that didn't pay in terms of hourly wage because I felt like I was just looking for like a real job.

(12:41):
Yeah. You know, and I'm doing air quotes for those that can't see.
Right. I say real job. I don't know what that meant. I was like 20 years.
I was I turned 21 my second day of training.
Right. So it was literally my only real professional job like any outside of
like working in a small business. You know what I mean?
It was my only real professional job. And so I was like, hey, you know, this is it.

(13:02):
Don't screw it up. you know in the back of my mind i always felt like somebody's
you know gonna take a chance on me and get rewarded i didn't know why i always
had that feeling in the back of my head and then i was very fortunate that a
lot of things made sense from when i after i started you know until i left but
yeah no i definitely was like the,
there was like the last kid in dodgeball and then there was like the.

(13:26):
All right, you know, they look for anybody else, but you left down the wall
and just pretend you don't even exist.
And then I could play in a few games and then come back to you.
You're right. Only, only when they're down like three people, they finally let you in.
Yeah. It was kind of like one, it was kind of like one of those things.
And so in that respect, yeah, the expectations weren't real high on me and,
you know, I was very fortunate that somehow it made sense.

(13:48):
And yeah, there was a lot of history.
I love when someone from the other team in dodgeball wore
glasses i always tried to throw that ball right at their face you
know like boom you know like that was no that
actually really happened to me but yes i see another reason why i
want i don't want to have the glasses you know yeah it's a it's a detriment
in dodgeball i think it for sure is the yeah it's so funny you brought up because

(14:12):
i i had i was thinking about it you know you always used to bring up how your
first day was your birthday the first day you started and that's That's how you celebrate it.
And it was a story that would always get brought up because we were part of your team.
We used to give you a birthday gift and say, oh, this is also like kind of your

(14:33):
anniversary at the same time.
It was cool. I remember one time you were always very appreciative of every gift that we got you.
There were some bad ones out there, but there was one we got you and we got
you a watch. watch and as a team and you had this watch and for the viewers who don't know you.

(14:54):
Flashy guy, always dressed nice, nice car, hair slicked back,
looking like Tom Cruise.
He had the little piece that came down the window washer over your forehead.
Always looking solid. But you had a watch that you got when you bought some luggage.
You got a free watch that you got from a luggage set.

(15:17):
And it was terrible. It was like one of the worst watches I'd ever seen in my life.
We were all slightly embarrassed for you. and we all chipped in
and we got you a watch and we also
did try to time this on days when production was bad so
like you couldn't yep you couldn't yell at us and we give you the
gift we would all time it so like oh my god today's a super shitty day of production

(15:37):
graham's gonna be all over our asses like oh let's give him his birthday gift
now we're like yeah yeah let's do it so we gave you this watch and you were
so appreciative of it and you were so happy about it And you wore it all the time.
I'm sure you still have it on your wrist now. But it was one of those things
we could tell how much you really loved it. That was cool.

(15:59):
Anniversary gift and birthday gift at the same time. That's funny you say that
because one of the things that I'm known for now is coming across as very unappreciated of gifts.
So somewhere along the line between, well, there's a lot of things that changed
between Skitty Scoundrels, which was the name of the team that we were referencing,
the name of the sales team, and then current date.

(16:23):
Yeah, somehow I look back, and I think when I look back, I think about when was I the most happy?
When was I the most myself, the most authentic?
And when did it change?
And the scoundrels days was definitely –,
the most enjoyable after that it was i think

(16:45):
i guess technically so that by the way that would have been the
first six years of a 21 year career so i guess
the next 14 or 15 were downhill in certain in quality in certain ways i had
a lot of achievements and successes but there was you know yeah but there's
a lot of yeah a lot of lack of progress and quality of life in other ways in
order to be able to accomplish those achievements yeah so you bring up you bring

(17:09):
up something that I think is important and you're kind of doing some reflection
and looking back and you say, Hey, look,
those first few years were super happy and enjoyed them.
Not that every day is great, but overall was, was, was really great.
What do you think changed? Was it something inside you that changed?
Was it something with the company? Was it a combination of, of both of those

(17:32):
things? You know, what was that turning point?
Gosh, what was that turning point? You know, I think somewhere along the way, if you recall,
in order to roll out divisions, going from a sales team to creating what became
divisions so that Quicken Loans could be rocket financial, grow into Quicken
Loans and things like that.

(17:53):
It was the first big leap of growth for the sales folks.
And in doing that, it went from, I guess, doing things that was, I guess...
I don't know. I guess that's a good question. Somewhere along the way,
I went, I started thinking that I needed to be something different than what
I was in order to get to where I wanted to go.

(18:17):
And so now, you know, and so now that I was, I didn't get to that spot without some feedback.
Right. I mean, so, you know, you know, some of that, you know,
and so, yeah, so anyway, so I just,
so I just, you know, piled on the different masks and kept trying on different
personas until I could figure out, you know, what I, what I could,

(18:39):
what I could continue and, you know, and yeah.
And so I think that that really was a lot of it, right.
It was that I just always kind of came in trying to, you know,
wear a disguise every day, trying to fit in.
Yeah. And that was it. And we're skinny scoundrels.
I never worried about fitting in, right?
Just for whatever reason, there was just a certain,

(19:01):
I don't know, maybe there was a certain level of autonomy or freedom that we
felt at that time or that I could feel at that time because it was just us doing
our thing versus accepting the responsibility to grow the company over the next
three to five years and having that and putting that on my backpack and becoming,
and I think that's what it was. with me, where I became very outcome focused.

(19:22):
And I think that's when I probably, when I became known as more of a taskmaster, right?
I was so focused on achieving these goals for the company to grow, right?
That I just, you know, that I definitely lost sight of the value and the journey
and how we're getting there.
Regardless of how many people try to explain it to me, right?
But I'm not saying that people didn't try to explain it to me.
I'm not saying that there weren't plenty of people along the way.

(19:43):
Like Jay said, I just didn't have my antennas up to that frequency at that time.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, when you mentioned, you know, you started with a
company of 400, you left, it was 18,000, you know, obviously there's different
milestones along the way, but you're right.
Things change, you know, things become more restrictive, a lot more things you

(20:05):
have to pay attention to that you didn't before.
And the, the focus of that production certainly became pretty predominant throughout
those, throughout those years.
And I know it was always was a focal point inside of any sales team.
But I think sometimes we forget how that also applies to people in executive roles too.

(20:25):
Like it's like, oh, they're not in the day-to-day. No, they are in the day-to-day.
Yeah. When somebody says, look, here's day-to-day, if you don't hit your sales
goals, we do layoffs next week.
Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty, yeah. You get into the day-to-day real fast. Yeah.
That reminds me, I remember what you used to say to me.
Oh, I didn't even have this written dad i did i just this

(20:47):
just came just came to mind i'd have a bad day
you know at work and you come over to me you'd be like todd i got two things
to tell you and you're like first i mean after the hundredth time i already
knew what the two things were right but like first time i definitely you know
puckered up my butthole a little bit when you said yeah you're fired and i was like oh Oh, shit.

(21:09):
And you go, good news is you can come back to work tomorrow.
That's what you would say to me on a bad day's production. Boy,
that motivation was amazing.
As much as I hate it, guess how many times I've used it since.
I've used it a lot so many times. It's ridiculous.

(21:33):
Oh, God. You know, when I look back and I say, oh, my gosh, I was part of the
skitty scoundrels, part of the sales team.
I had a lot of success, you know, under you.
What do you think it was, even with all these hardships and responsibilities,

(21:54):
how did you build such a good sales staff and leaders throughout the company
in various different areas?
What was your secret sauce there? Yeah.
Well now i would tell you unconscious competency was
my secret sauce i was very blessed being very blessed

(22:15):
with an intuition or a gut if you will that i just didn't understand but you
know what i mean but played itself out and and i and i was able to and and so
i was able to identify and see the potential in people right not necessarily
for what they were but just what they could be because that's what they wanted
to be right so i just kind of saw people maybe
differently than what others, how others saw them.

(22:35):
And, and as a result, you know, I saw potential where others,
you know, saw, you know, something different, right.
For whatever reasons. And then it doesn't mean that it was anyway.
And, and so, and I also, you know, and I guess I also think that my,
because I would just, because I also respected, there's so many different ways

(22:56):
to get to an outcome that, you know, I definitely was very comfortable.
And plus, I also didn't want anybody over my shoulder ever, right?
So I didn't want to be over anybody else in that respect.
So as long as you can get to the goal,
then you have the autonomy and the flexibility to do what you need to do.
But to push back and tell me that you got it figured out and missing goal,

(23:16):
well, that one doesn't make a lot of sense.
So if you're going to miss goal, then you're going to have to take a little bit more of my advice.
If you don't want my advice so much, then you got to hit goal, right?
And so I think that while that seems so simple, as I've experienced,
as I noticed myself more later on all right and i noticed where
i where you know i didn't have that flexibility with people
where i didn't have that trust with people right where i didn't you

(23:38):
know you know what you know you while you're sitting there i
never worried about i never
that leadership group was the last time
that i was with a leadership team that i
trusted everybody having my best interest in mind in
addition to me having theirs and so

(23:58):
it wasn't a land grab or somebody challenging for you
know stuff that i oversaw or built or created or take it
you know i mean you know i'm referring in all the yeah you know and it just
it's just you know it's part of the growing company it's part of the politics
and stuff and and so i so that allowed me and so so in that respect i guess
that was probably the last time i fully with what exhaled and was that i was
comfortable to be myself because i didn't feel like you know i had to worry

(24:21):
about you know i Let's just say,
I knew that I would provide plenty of moments for somebody to go, gotcha.
So I needed to be around people that wouldn't do that to me.
You used to say, part of the job is just keeping your ass out of the fire. You used to tell me that.
And that's true, building those relationships. I always thought you also did a really great job.

(24:48):
Hiring people that fit
with your leadership style too and we had
on our team we had a
lot of really hard-working people that wanted
to please and i felt like that was always something i mean as much as you can
you try to look for when you know when when you're hiring versus when you get

(25:11):
into at the level that you got to later on where you're not even doing the hiring
you know then And, you know, there's already people in place.
You know, sometimes I can get outside of your comfort zone a little bit.
And I was I was curious as to, you know, look, I'm outside looking in.
That's kind of, you know, I sort of noticed that.

(25:32):
But I was wondering how that different for you going from an environment that
you had created, you had built up over the years.
And some people will say, oh, my gosh, I do the worst job doing that.
I'm better in the the opposite, the opposite way.
But going from that type of environment to an environment now where you didn't
do the hiring, you're not doing it, and you're working with these people that maybe are not,

(25:54):
they don't know you as well, and maybe they're not into your leadership as much.
Or maybe they are, but I figured, hey, look, I wanted to know a little bit more
about that progress and what you thought about that.
Yeah, so no, that's cool, man. I appreciate you bringing up another traumatic
moment from, you know, because generally speaking, you know,

(26:15):
being misunderstood was the root source of a lot of trauma for me in a lot of ways.
And to your point, right, those that I hired, right, I have a belief that,
look, if you're willing to put in the work, then I'm willing to keep working
with you, period, right? Right.
And so, yes, I had to somebody who just had a desire, you know,
that I know then after that, the rest of it's teachable.

(26:37):
Right. None of us came out of the womb knowing how to do this stuff. Right.
So I looked so I looked for more of raw ingredients, I guess,
in that respect, too. But to go to continue to answer your question.
Shoot. I asked me that question. Yeah. So you went from a team,
Skitty, that you had put together. Oh, that's right. Thank you. There we go.

(26:58):
So, yeah, it was a real problem for me. Frankly, because people wouldn't understand me,
whether it be my sense of humor or whether it be my directness or how I would
say things and I view things as feedback to get better.
And in many cases, the bias typically behind that is if I'm getting feedback

(27:25):
to get better, I'm not doing something right.
And so the people that didn't know me, that would be a real big challenge.
And as I also got outside of sales and the makeup of people,
the wiring is very different between salespeople and marketing people and data
people and things of that nature.
And so I struggled a lot. And interestingly enough, some of my best relationships

(27:50):
with others that I didn't hire only came after a massive blow up.
So i don't know i'm sure you know you remember strable obviously
oh yeah yeah right in the i mean
you know i had to you know i you know strable was
also i i valued my relationship with her tremendously
and i didn't hire

(28:12):
her and i interpreted her and
then this was like when she ended up moving to my team from somebody else's
based on how i would interpret somebody's actions i interpreted her actions
as like not caring or this right essentially and so we went out to dinner and
had to talk about it and i like you know essentially accused her of you know
not caring and this and that and then that burst into you know i think there may have been some,

(28:36):
tears involved you know so then i feel bad and then you know she's telling me
otherwise and then i think you know there's most likely some some you know oh
well f you and f you and once you
kind of do that with each other and you recognize that it's okay there's a certain,
there's a new foundation of equality i guess that that is
formed right then in the comfort level right that can be had and so you know

(29:00):
and so you know and i'm sure if you think back there's different situations
like that where stuff like that happened between you and i that made you then
feel comfortable to you know push buttons later on right and so unfortunately the one thing
I never figured out how to do during that corporate career was how to establish
that relationship without that blow up.

(29:21):
Yeah. I feel like you're describing like the military, like you come out here,
we're going to break you down, you know? Yeah.
Yeah. Well, you know, in hindsight, there probably was some of that unintentionally, right?
Like I'm going to say that I would never, I think hopefully even back then people
would know that my MO is never to tear people down. Wow.
However, that being said, that doesn't mean, but I can also tell you that I

(29:44):
was definitely ignorant of the effect of the wording that can be,
you know what I mean? How the wording can be interpreted, right?
And how that could be taken that way, even though that wasn't my intention, right?
And so I definitely, I think had a lot of challenges and a lot of trauma because
I had, and I say trauma too, because I mean, it's like people felt,
people that I felt, I don't know, how would they say, like, you know,
I'm not good about people that I had positive things to say about,

(30:07):
you know, didn't think that I had those positive things to say about them.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so that bummed me out. Right. And then that's all I'm
saying. Right. So, and so I could never figure out how to get that one.
Right. Right. Until again, it was in hindsight.
And to the, the backend of that question was a lot of people would be like,
Graham, you were a pain in the butt or whatever else, but I got to tell you,
we didn't realize how much you did for us or how much you covered us until you were gone.

(30:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of, unfortunately there was a lot of that
then too. There were people didn't. And so yeah, I never figured out how to do it in real time, man.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I got to witness some of those meetings that you were
in, you know, sticking up for, for people.
And there was one thing was many things about you, but one thing I always really
appreciated was there wasn't anything thing that you wouldn't you know you wouldn't

(30:52):
say something to my face and then say something different behind it to someone
else you you would never say Todd you're doing a great job,
and you know behind closed doors me like whoo you
know that Todd we gotta we gotta we gotta think a little bit of you know about
him and I don't know people really understand how much you know how much stuff
like that happens and you know it's you don't always know it either so So I

(31:17):
always appreciated you telling me how much I suck all the time.
And then, you know, at least I knew that, you know, you couldn't be saying anything
worse behind closed doors.
You know, you know, I'm going to, you know, you're very welcome for giving you
something. I always look forward to the next day.
Just getting a little, just getting a lot of, just getting a little better because
being given the opportunity to be a little better.

(31:39):
Hey, so I always wondered this because there were times that you were very, very approachable.
And there was times where you were like, totally not approachable.
Right. We all have this. Someone catches you at a bad time, no matter what they
say, you just, you know, you snarl a little bit.

(31:59):
One of the things I learned very quickly was, hey, look, you don't come to Graham
with an issue in the morning.
Right. Or you don't come to him with like a great idea in the morning time. Right.
You come in the evening hours after people have gone home and there's not as
much distractions and stuff like that.

(32:20):
I was curious about that. I had my thoughts on it, but I thought I'd just ask
you, what was different for you in the morning time versus the evening time for you?
Oh, this kind of goes back to not understanding my wiring back then.
It took a lot to get me awake and going.

(32:43):
And just you know to get going in the morning and so like
it took all i had to try to get to the office on time as you know which
was not very often and so you
know and so yeah so i was just i was always kind of peeling in so the so the
yeah so the real truth is so i was always peeling in there trying to avoid being
seen by somebody else for showing up late right so i'm already starting my day

(33:05):
with some anxiousness of sneaking in right and so yeah i just wasn't and so then at
that point then because i feel you know
like oh shit right then i better hurry up you know then we got to make sure we get
production going since i'm late right and so then it was like because
then like anything as you know whatever whatever whatever
sin occurred writing a deal or hitting hitting goal you

(33:27):
know somehow you know cured that sin and so you know yeah right so it was kind
of like all right let's at least get some deals on the board and then and then
the other part of it was in like by the time everybody was gone it was also
like you know sensory overload was like gone There's not so many people around,
not all the energy around, right?
And so at that point in time, I also kind of looked at it like once I got there

(33:48):
until whenever everybody else's day was scheduled was like my time for them
to do what they needed, generally speaking.
Then once everybody left was when I got to do my stuff. Yeah, yeah.
It makes sense. I mean, to me, that makes sense. And I get the logic there.
And I was happy that I was able to recognize that earlier on in my career.

(34:13):
Well, if nothing else, look, if nothing else, as you know, I'm consistent, right?
Like if you pay attention, like I'll tell you how I am, right? I was pretty routine.
What I wanted to know too, almost like taking a break from the business here just for a second.
Like I almost feel like we need like a commercial. You need like a sponsor like

(34:33):
Zoloft or Prozac or Lexapro or something like that. you know, um, here, but,
Graham, you know, I knew you really, really well, you know, inside the office.
And I feel like I got to know you probably better than most outside.
But we didn't hang out like, you know, Friday, Saturday nights,
you know, occasionally, you
know, and that would be like the world to me if, you know, we went out.

(34:56):
But what I did want to know is, like, how did you make friends?
Like your friends, were they like, like, did you have new friends when you took on this job?
Because, you know, you're all of a sudden you're work, you're working,
you know, 70, 80 hours a week and weekends. Did you keep some of your old friends?
Did you like, what was your life outside the office like for those, you know, 20 years?

(35:22):
It's funny i worked with you for 21 years but i really don't know shit about
you what happened after you left.
You know i was a private person right gosh so the short answer is i didn't i don't maintain,
i'm a fairly solitary person right and you know and and you know as a even believe

(35:50):
it or not even though I was around people and folks,
that was more of a means to the end and learning how to try to be something, right?
Be trying to be an extrovert, but I'm really more of an introvert, right?
And so, so initially, so a lot of times, so I didn't really have,
I didn't really have friends to be quite frank, right?
Like I had in the sense of the thing that maybe most that people would think of.

(36:11):
I had, I had friends that were, I had compartmentalized friends, right?
Like I had friends I golfed with. I had friends that I went drinking with.
And I occasionally had like work friends
I might grab a drink with and just talk shop with right but
there was never anybody who fit who was in all three of those buckets there
were always three different things so it's kind of like three different grams

(36:33):
at all times that you know and in some cases you know some of those like you
know we're hiding right like I you know like I didn't want I you know I didn't
want the work people to see the golf gram right right right Right.
And so in some cases there was definitely hiding that was being done and,
you know, in my private life, you know.

(36:57):
Because I just, I wouldn't, I knew people wouldn't understand,
you know, the need to blow off steam because it didn't fit the traditional mold.
But like, you know, I was a single guy. I didn't, I wasn't, I wasn't for the
most of the time I didn't, I wouldn't have like a family and kids and doing other stuff.
Right. So as everybody else was doing that, I still was a single guy. Right.
And so like the way I just grew up and changed around me. So that's the other part.

(37:19):
Right. It was like, I think Jay, that point was maybe the closest one.
But like, you know, I didn't even, didn't hang out much with Jay either.
Right. and so yeah so thanks for
again you know bringing up the painful memory of a lack of friends in my life
and you know and people to get close with but no that
yeah that was really the case and then even now right like i've kind
of got people that are in my spiritual world and people that were

(37:39):
in like know that you know skinny and then there's just people that know
great you know know me today whatever or just
and you know it's called me as country club gram or whatever right right which
is again very unusual you know to have the spiritual and you know
and those two two things that's a whole nother separate discussion but
yeah it's so i just kind of yeah i learned how to compartmentalize my
life to get what

(38:00):
i needed you know to get by do
you feel like hey look you were hired in you're 21
you're in this corporate environment you're moving up the
ranks you're you know you're doing a great great job
getting promoted but you're also getting older and
some of the things that you maybe were important
to you at 21 and starting your career year did some

(38:22):
of those things change like along the way you
know like when you're 27 28 30 you
know 30 oh man i was always a very arrogant
little shit i was you know let's look back let's look back i certainly never
lacked confidence in my ability to get the job done even for someone i had no
idea about right i always had my confidence in my ability to just get right

(38:44):
the hood figure it out and get going you know it just failure is not an option
so all right then we'll figure it out. You know, it was that simple to me.
Right. But I definitely, but it definitely was, you know, there's a lot of rough,
a lot of, a lot of rough around the edges.
To say the least, we're a boy and I could sort of get myself down a rabbit hole here.
So let me pull myself back up. What was the original question again?

(39:07):
Well, I was asking you about your, you know, about your friends,
but then I was saying, how did you change from when you were 21 and high?
Oh, yeah, that's what it was. Yeah, I essentially was still, yeah, no, I still,
look, man, I very much thought that the way that the game of life was to be
played was you would, you know, you become an executive at a company, you make money, right?

(39:32):
You provide for people. Your value is what you're able to provide.
Society places value on those that make money. They somehow think that you're
more wise or smart if you have a different income compared to other people.
I'm not saying that's right, but I just don't, right? Like everything.
So I just was like, Oh, and then you're supposed to, Oh, Oh, well then God,
if you want guys to try to think you're cool, try to, you know,

(39:54):
date girls that look like this okay all right well i'll try that let's see how
that goes right like so there was so essentially all of a lot of the superficial check marks of like.
What am i you know so i have you know i i i live because that's what i thought
i was supposed to do right because that's what i thought the game of life was
and there's no doubt that when you know being a young guy and successful at

(40:17):
a very young age at least economically you know relatively speaking,
you know, there's no, you know, you, you definitely wasn't going to say you
get, you know, I got, I can't believe nobody ever punched me, frankly.
Right. I mean, that's what they're, you know, and, and I really struggled with

(40:39):
those changes to be friendly with you.
Look, I mean, I, I definitely knew how to get results, but what I didn't know
how to do necessarily was not leave dead bodies in the wake.
Yeah. Right. right and that became a real problem for
me and it became a real problem with you know
people feeling you know getting treated a certain way not like
i didn't realize that was happening right until somebody would tell me right like i

(40:59):
would never you know i would never intentionally you know want
to hurt someone's feeling or make them feel bad things like that right but my
you know but without unless somebody would tell me i would never i wouldn't
realize i was doing anyway it's happening you know a lot because one of the
challenges when you feel as you like to go up the ladder is that it's harder
to get honest feedback right and so by the time you get it And it's like,
you know, it's a shit storm.

(41:20):
It's not just like, you know, you're catching it at the little time.
And so, yeah, I definitely created a reputation for, you know,
towards the end, especially probably of, or somewhere in the middle in the last
five, eight years of being, you know, rough around the edges,
like right, unapproachable.
You know, I never learned to, because I never, I never trusted,

(41:40):
frankly, I never trusted. I trusted very few people.
Right. And so as a result of trusting very few people.
You know, I just didn't allow others to help me. And, you know,
and that definitely, you know, I didn't make my life, I didn't do myself any
favors in that respect. Yeah.
You know what, I think that oftentimes you're harder on yourself and your perception

(42:03):
yourself, just like anyone, is probably not how other people,
you know, perceived you.
And I brought up before, like you kind of, you know, you hired people that.
That's good because I felt like a pretty big piece of shit. for a lot of my career.
No, well, you, you know what you, you, for me personally, let me just talk about me for a second.
It's always, I always hate to put words in other, in other people's mouths,

(42:27):
but I think a lot of us felt this way from conversations that we had at my time
in my life, I needed a leader like you, right?
I needed, I needed that person that would force me to get answers.
I needed that person that was hard on you, but cared.
And that person that when you You gave them something that they wanted.

(42:50):
You got just that little glimpse of pleasure that made you want to see it again.
And I'll get into it a little bit later. Here's a little thing to make sure
people are still on the podcast and stick with us.
But a couple of things, a top 10 list of things I really appreciated from Graham

(43:10):
along the way. Some of them are weird.
You wouldn't even think I appreciate it. But for me, it was it was it was really
it was really important.
And I know this is probably cliche, Graham, and probably for your audience,
it might be cliche, but I got to ask it is, like, if you had it to do over again,
like, would you go down this, this same, the same path?

(43:34):
Was it worth it? And then the other thing I would ask is, if the money wasn't
there, would you have still done it?
If the money was, I'll answer the first. If the money was there and it was not
there, I definitely would not have done it.
So much of my identity was tied up in my sense of worth and value,
was tied up into that economic identity and success, right?

(43:59):
So, no, I probably would have gone elsewhere.
Were the early on
anyway you know after i got into things and built relationships as part
you know then yeah and that answer would change then the
other question that you asked was shoot was
sorry what was it so what i

(44:20):
want to know is if you would basically do it again yeah that's
what i do it and go through again yeah do it again yeah
sorry you always ask me these questions that keep having me go back so far
and i started getting my time to get the answer i go down like boy i pull myself
back up and i forget the question you asked the so
yeah when i do it again you know so the
first i'll ask i'll answer the two the other one that people always ask is are

(44:41):
there any regrets because i spend a lot of time always how do i answer the question
any regrets yeah i do have regrets i have regrets that people that i thought
positive things about didn't know that i felt that way about them right that
i do regret that right that doesn't make that does bum me out right that being said.
Aside from me having an unintended effect on others and what i wanted right
you know like you said, everyone also comes into each other's lives for the

(45:03):
reasons that they needed to.
And so I have to, you know, keep that in my mind.
But the other part of it is if I, if I'm honest with myself,
I don't know how else I would have learned, you know, like, I mean,
there was the, I mean, let's be noble.
One of the things that made me great was drove me also drove people nuts about me, right.

(45:24):
It was a very stubborn figured out my own way, you know, and I'll be damned
if somebody's going to tell me what to do.
I, you know, Especially if I know that something can be done,
even if I haven't figured it out yet.
Wow. And so, yeah. So I just, aside from doing it, learning kind of the school
of hard knocks, and I just, I don't know how else I could have worked my way
through things to be able to be at peace with the answers. Okay. Yeah.

(45:50):
Thank you for sharing that. Okay. Are you still into Looney Tunes characters?
And do you still collect stuffed animals?
Wow. So I still have them all. Okay. I have not.
But yeah, that was definitely one of the ways that I, interestingly enough,
that was one of the ways that I, like you said, after wearing masks to fit in all the time, right?

(46:13):
And that was a way of just keeping that playful side of myself that wasn't welcome
in the corporate environment or whatever, which also means that,
yes, I still have all of those dancing hamsters that you guys have.
Absolutely all of them. Oh, gosh.
For your audience that doesn't know, I think it's important for them to know

(46:36):
you actually have a tattoo of a Looney Tunes character.
Is that on your right arm? Is that where it is? No, it's my right leg. My right leg.
Okay. Okay. I couldn't remember. Arms and legs look so much alike.
And what is it of, Skitty? Tweety Bird. Tweety Bird. That's right.
And I'll tell the audience a little story. You moved into your new house and

(46:58):
you were showing us around and stuff like that.
And I don't know if you showed us the room or if I just opened up the door.
It was a guest bedroom and there was a bed and And all on the bed were Looney Tunes stuffed animals.
And I loved it. And I thought someday I'm going to use this,
you know, to embarrass you. But I never really got that opportunity.

(47:21):
Like, I've wondered, like, we know now, and I think it's talked about a little
bit more, that people inside of the corporate world and executives,
they still have anxiety.
There's still things that bother them. and they second-guess things.
Did you have any of that?

(47:42):
Did you ever think, oh, my God, this is a person that's going to see right through me?
Were there scenarios that made you anxious, even at the level that you were?
Or did you just kind of like, boom, this is my task. I'm just going to move forward and get it done.
I was wearing disguises to work every day. Yeah, I was full of anxiety.

(48:04):
Yeah. Right? Yeah.
I was like you know i i would i would equate myself to
being like a robot doing ab testing all the time you know
okay how about this person i've answered this way do i fit in does it work how
about if i say this does that work a small talk oh that doesn't work okay well
what about this what about that right yeah so that was so yeah there was there

(48:24):
was a shit ton of anxiety about those things especially especially when i was
dealing with unfamiliar things or dealing done with things for the first time. Yeah.
Yeah. And were you different with your team versus the people that you were
reporting to the, you know, the executive leadership was there,
was there one gram with his team and another gram that was, you know, with,

(48:47):
you know, with those people that you were reporting to?
To an extent, right? I mean, like the same way that you talked about knowing
your audience, right? There's a time to approach people.
There's a time to say, you know, you say this to this person,
you say it to this way, right?
Like the same way that you learn how to, you know, navigate conversations with your wife.

(49:07):
You know what things are going to push buttons, you know, right?
And things like that, right? So in that respect, then yeah, absolutely,
right? You definitely do those types of things.
But no that actually again that also caused me a
lot of problems because i mean like
i guess i don't know i mean it's been enough years i'm not saying it was anything
else but look i i saw the hypocrisy between different management tiers right

(49:31):
like the collaboration and involvement and the rah-rah and the fun is like acceptable
and wanted from everybody up to here but then
there's a spot where now we just want you to do what you want.
We just want you to do, we ask you to do it.
Right. We just need you to bring it. And, and, and, and there was just,
and, and so there was, I just noticed that it just wasn't the same.

(49:54):
And so I just never found myself and that point about wearing masks, right?
Like I never, I've never, I've never really been comfortable in the traditional
C-suite environment around your traditional executives in the past, right?
Because in many cases, a lot of times those guys went to school,
you know, I mean, went to colleges and things like that, had degrees.
And so there's a certain vernacular and way to describe things.

(50:16):
And it's knowledgeable. And they just kind of know how to speak to each other.
Well, I didn't go to school. I didn't do all that stuff.
I just succeeded along the way. So there was always a, not an intimidation because
nobody was always going to be intimidated.
But I definitely had a lot of anxiety around how I was speaking and wondering
if I was coming across the right way or not.
If I was being understood, if I was coming across as intelligent or ignorant.

(50:39):
Right right i just didn't know how to know because i mean i didn't make
faces necessarily accurately either you know so that
that wasn't for me yeah so i'm
going to take a time out here and i want to go through a top 10 list okay of
important times in my life with with graham graham skidmore things that still

(51:02):
to this day i think about and sometimes think about many many many, many times.
And I thought your audience might want to hear it because it gives them a little
insight into what Skiddy meant to people inside of the corporate world.
So with number 10, let's feel like we need a little drum thing.

(51:23):
Maybe we can- I know, man. Am I gonna have to get some Kleenex here, man?
Well, listen to him first. So, all right. Number 10 is a flight to Boston.
I took some time off and
i told you i'm flying to boston and you

(51:45):
go what dates i go on the dates i'm taking
off you go what day are you flying to boston i
said i'm flying on this day and you go okay
what time is your flight i'm like boy like he is
really he really cares like he really wants to
know what is going on like i'm like what's he
gonna do and you're like are you going into
to boston are you going somewhere else i'm like no i'm going

(52:07):
to boston i was thinking what is he going to do for me like i've
been having a good month maybe he set me something up but then
what it was is you gave me the insight and i
was the only person i think who knew that knew this at the time or
maybe it was something else that made me feel so special because you were having
like a secret relationship with someone at the office and you were gonna be

(52:29):
on that same flight and And you didn't want me to say something on social media
at the time, so I couldn't post it.
And the best thing was, I got to the airport.
I'm so excited. I'm going to see you and this special person,
right, come on the plane. You guys missed your flight.
You didn't even make the flight after all that.

(52:52):
And so I'm like, what the hell is going on? You missed it.
And then you were on the flight on the way back, and you guys bought me drinks.
I think, you know, make sure I wasn't going to say something.
But it made me feel, it did. I'm not even going to lie to you.
It made me feel so special. And that's just number 10.
Number nine, my wedding.

(53:12):
Wanted to make sure that you were there before I walked down the aisle.
I remember that. We always knew that Skitty could be a little late, but you were there.
I remember seeing you as I walked down, you know, walked down the aisle,
got to hang out with you that night.
Super special to me. the other thing i i
love and this this always gave us some insight
into your personal life like you said you were always you

(53:34):
know pretty much on the dl for those of
you who don't don't know there used to be back in
the day when we first started there used to be an
annual poem that would come that would come out every
year and it would talk about all the accomplishments people
had it would make fun of some people and there would
always be a part where it was designated needed just to

(53:54):
make fun of brim skin more about the relationships that
he had with women and we would laugh and it would just give us some insight
and we'd see you laugh about yourself you know probably because you had to there
was no no choice at the time i mean the truth is the truth right i mean the
truth is the truth it was it was fun and,

(54:16):
Speaking with fun and the truth, you also knew a lot about your people and knew a lot about me.
One time you gave me a gift, and this was a gift that meant so much to me.
And it was probably, I don't know, this probably still could have been an expensive gift.
But you got me the world's largest gummy.
Gummy snake. Yeah, gummy snake. And, I mean, this thing was 26 pounds.

(54:39):
And gummies are my, for your audience, it's like, that's my jam.
Like, I salivate. I'm like Pavlov's dog. I'm thinking about gummies right now.
I need to have some every night. You bought it for me. I remember I laid it
out over Thanksgiving and we cut it up with like a knife and gave it to the family.
And I could tell everyone there's something special about something when you
say, Hey, my, my boss, my leader gave me this because you want other people

(55:04):
to think that you're liked as well.
You know, it's not just you that, Oh, like I'm in this environment where not
only am I enjoying it, but my boss gave me this because he likes me so much, right?
And then we used it with the wine set that he had gotten a few years prior.
And every Thanksgiving, I pull it out with the family. I used to text you,
say, hey, I love to use in the wine set.

(55:26):
And it was those little gifts that meant so much to me, not because it was just
me, but because I could show other people how much you thought of me,
right? And I always appreciated those. To this day, I still do.
We used to go. Every year you would invite me and Rachel, who's my wife,
you would invite us to the NF gala in downtown Detroit.

(55:49):
And it was always a blast. It was always so much fun.
And you always knew who I was taking. We didn't always know who you were taking.
But it was that was also part of the fun is being able to kind of see and,
you know, talk, talk a little stuff about you, you know, when you went to the
restroom and, you know, and, you know, tell some real skitty stories.

(56:11):
But, you know, we didn't always get an insight into that part of your life.
So you giving that to me meant the world to me. It was awesome.
Promoting me when you did the promotion. And there was something we always said
is that like some people get promoted before, but you always waited to make
sure that like, you know, it was something that you felt comfortable with that was really earned.

(56:32):
And I always knew that. And I really appreciated when, you know,
that promotion email came out and you know, you got the team together.
There was two of us that got promoted at the same time from the, you know, from the team.
And just to show you how like little things matter that other person that got,

(56:53):
got promoted the first year that we were on your team, she got a birthday cake
and I didn't. And I still remember that to this day too.
So just to, just to let you know, 23 years, you know, 25 years later,
you still remember those, those little things.
So, but no, this is supposed to be a top 10 things and the things I really like,
and I've already moved over to something that bothered me from 24 years ago,

(57:15):
not getting a birthday cake.
So promoting me was huge. The other thing that stuck with me and I really appreciated
was shortly after I got promoted, you had me come to your desk and you said,
you are now getting demoted because they didn't meet the numbers,
but you read the numbers wrong.
And then what happened was you actually brought me back over to your desk the
next day and you apologized because I had a heart attack pretty much.

(57:39):
I was at home, didn't know what the hell was going to go on,
but you actually apologized, brought me over to your desk and said,
you hope it didn't cause you too much trouble. But I remember that.
And I was thinking, gosh, okay, like this guy really is looking at it like a second time.
It isn't just like looking at it at first glance and saying,
oh my God, here's a problem.
And that meant so much to me that like, okay, I can trust him that if there's

(58:02):
a mistake made, he's going to catch it.
So as strange as it thought and how bad it was at that moment in time,
like it created this, this atmosphere of trust down the, down the road.
You had an old house in Farmington Hills.
I was there one time I came over, I think we were all hanging out.
You had to get something at your, at your house.

(58:23):
And I walked in and you had a medicine cart.
You were like 20, you were like, I don't know, 25 years old.
And you had a medicine cart, like my Nana. Okay.
And it was the craziest thing I had ever seen in my life. It was literally unreal.
Like you could go from like the bedroom to the kitchen.

(58:46):
And I was like, oh my God, if this guy's showing me this, like,
okay, he's got, he, he, he trusts me because this is crazy.
And also humanized you. Like, I'm like, okay, this guy really is human.
In fact, he needs all these things to get going on a daily basis. He's got a cart.
This guy is human. That's hilarious. I wasn't sure until then.

(59:08):
It's funny how many people have said those same words.
You might remember this. I don't know if you do, but six months,
into my tenure. I'm a banker and I got one of those dreaded call complaints.
And for your audience that doesn't know, a call complaint was when you didn't
return a client's phone call after 24 hours, email would come out and it was taken.

(59:31):
It was the most serious thing that could happen inside of your career.
And people would lose their jobs, regardless of production.
The top producer would lose your job for not calling clients back within 24
hours. and I get an email from Dan Gilbert, CCG on it.
And he goes, he goes, Graham, doesn't Todd know he can't work here anymore?

(59:54):
It was six months into my tenure. Didn't even address the email to me.
It was addressed to you. And I was on it.
And I'm like, there I go. My career is done. It's over.
I think I was probably shaking. I don't know if I was or not.
He came over to my desk and I was like, well, that's it. He's here.
Ramsey's going to, you know, sweep me under the rug. I'm done.
You came to my desk and you sat down and you go, let me handle this.

(01:00:17):
And you, you typed up the email response. You didn't yell. You didn't get angry.
And I was like, well, at that moment, it was like, that was awesome. Like totally awesome.
I don't know if you remember that or not skinny. Cause there's so many things
that, no, I, no, I did call complaints.
I spent, there was a lot of trauma but look to your points call complaints was

(01:00:38):
a was a very traumatic event for all parties involved so yeah
and you had look man and you were known for
having a handful of those i there was there was a few of those yes
i took some bullets for you so can we edit that out the number one number one
thing that i that i remember was it was i was a banker i don't even even know

(01:01:03):
how many years I had been with you, but I'd been with you at least a couple of years.
I had just eaten lunch and I don't even remember what I ate,
but I remember I was totally full.
And you came over to me and you said, Hey Todd, you want to go to lunch?
And like, just so everyone knows, like no one went out to lunch there.
Like maybe you went out and you grabbed something, but you didn't go out to lunch and eat anything.

(01:01:28):
And you know, that would be like, you know, employment suicide over there.
And you took me out and we went to Coney and I got chicken strips and fries
and I couldn't even eat it. Right.
And I didn't know, like, I'm like, oh, what's he going to talk to me about?
Like, there was just a million things going through my head.
And you just want to have a conversation.
We didn't really talk much. I don't even remember really what it was that we

(01:01:50):
talked about, but that single, that single gesture, like.
Just totally floored me and like i had
so much buy-in for years and years
i mean i'm still thinking about it now and i think about it inside of my own
career that i have now and just what those little things that can mean to people
you might not even remember you don't remember taking me to coney island you

(01:02:13):
know but i actually i remember that phase of my life very vividly because to
your point a guy just joked around about being called a robot right and being like
oh he is human and so believe me and so i i told you
i felt like a piece of shit most of my career and and so
while that what's interesting is because that was your perspective my
perspective of that time was being told that people don't

(01:02:34):
understand you you need to become a freaking human you need to like figure this
go take people out or something like this is a real problem go get your shit
together it was so like it was a very it was like that doesn't let me refer
this to me that doesn't mean who was it i don't like it kind of kind of started
to come out like it It wasn't something I wanted to do.
I didn't know how to make connections. You know what I'm saying?

(01:02:56):
Yeah. Let me, right. And so as a result of me not knowing how to make connections
with people, like eventually Jay was just like, seriously, you really don't
get it. You're just, you go fucking do this.
And I was like, thank you. Okay. Cause look, if it was that simple,
just go do it. If I just had the answer, I would have done it.
Right. Like I don't need to get, I don't need to keep getting shit for the same
thing repeatedly. Right.
Little, like it was little simple things like make human connections.

(01:03:18):
Didn't always come easy to me. They didn't come naturally to me.
Or like on a sales call is different.
Right. Like there. And, and even in work, right. Because there was,
there was goals that were involved and it's just about helping somebody to accomplish
their goals. Right. In each situation.
Right. And so I could take a caring perspective and engage in the conversation,
know what to go, but just random. Hey, what's up? How you doing? What do you care about?
I don't know. I don't know about these things. It's very stressful for me.

(01:03:41):
Don't ask me these questions.
Oh, gosh. Yeah, I mean, hey, look, man, there's so many important times.
I mean, I literally have like 25 things here.
And by the way, that's one of those things, too, I talk about regret,
right? Like if I had known really how much stuff like that meant to people,
I would have done it a lot more often.
Right. And by the way, and people may have said it to me, but again, I just, I don't know.

(01:04:05):
I wasn't in the place to be able to have the empathy to really understand how
much that meant to feel it myself.
You know what I mean? Like I hadn't experienced it. So I didn't know how to
really give it the weight that it really was.
And, and had I known those things, I would have done a lot more of that stuff
more often because I guess I, like, there was so much trauma that I had trying
to get people to feel that way.
Right. And I just, and I always struggled making those connections.

(01:04:26):
It's so funny how, even when I did them, I did, I did, I did what I was looking to do.
I didn't even recognize it ah yeah well you
know what though but you know what's awesome is that other people did and then you
know they take those things that they they learned along you know along the
way and they pat you know they they pass it forward and i feel like we need
like a bonus reel and i could you know talk through you know other things that

(01:04:48):
you know made me really appreciate you like the toll booth story where you didn't
have enough money to get through the toll booth you You had to borrow money from your uncle,
you know, to, uh, you know, to, to do it.
And, you know, it was like a 33 year old man who was right. Yes.
Your uncle had to give you like, you're like, I just need a couple of bucks.

(01:05:10):
And about 50 bucks for my, he gave me a $50 bill.
And I'm like, yeah, so I can get gas on the toll to get home.
I'm too old for this. yeah i remember gambling
with you on christmas oh yeah that was that was a
holiday that was a holiday tradition yeah that was that
was fun there was a oh my gosh there was there was

(01:05:32):
some some great there was
just some awesome awesome times i remember one
time skitty you were yelling at our
leadership crew like something fierce it was i
mean even for you this was like this was
a whole other level you brought us in in an office you
had a whiteboard you were i don't even know what the hell

(01:05:53):
you were writing on it you were just yelling and all
these things and it was us looking at you and your assistant had her back to
you and was looking at us and she was like taking notes and while you were in
this tirade just explosive tirade oh is this what she fell asleep She fell asleep.

(01:06:16):
We're all bumping. All the leaders were bumping each other.
I think someone started laughing, and you went off even more.
We kind of pointed to her, and you looked, and you saw she was sleeping.
We were all so happy. You said, okay, you got mad. You go, wait, you guys can leave.

(01:06:39):
You just stopped, whatever it was. And we knew that she was like in deep shit,
but we were just so happy to be out of that room.
My God, that was so, I can't believe she fell asleep. That's terrible. That was so funny.
I believe I remember that meeting because even though she was sleeping,
she still made sure to put, cause she was taking minutes of the meeting and

(01:07:02):
apparently she was putting like the, the, the tone.
Cause Jay was like, you look very skinny. You're coming out.
It's very angry at this meeting.
And I'm like, she was freaking sleeping, but she remembered to put that in.
I hope this is some sort of bonus reel, but you know, you also,

(01:07:23):
So you weren't always the most compassionate person, you know,
when it came to coming into, you know, coming into work or missing something
or, you know, or things like that.
And I remember I called you up. Most human related items. I wasn't, I lacked compassion.
Well, I called you up one morning and we had a really important meeting.
It was me, you, and Farner. We were going to, we were going to meet.

(01:07:43):
And, and I don't even remember exactly what it was about, but it was something important.
And I called you up and I said, hey, Skinny, I'm not going to be able to come
in today. And, you know, you, you know, blowing up.
This is your chance. You've just thrown your whole career away.
I said, Skitty, I can't come in. I'm taking a shower this morning.

(01:08:05):
And I looked down at my left nuts the size of a softball.
You go, okay, you go take care of that. Don't worry about it.
We got you covered. Let me know how it goes.
I remember that i still laugh i still tell
that story to to my friends you know among me

(01:08:26):
by the way that jump to conclusions then hear stuff and put your foot in the
mouth and feel bad yeah i'm very familiar with that that that that move plagued
me for a much in my career and personal life so yeah i will say you're also
though a great scapegoat because of you know the way you were I used to blame
everything on you to my wife and, you know,
like, you know, skinny's got us, you know, working, working late tonight.

(01:08:49):
Even if you didn't even like want to see, it was just me who wanted to be there,
you know, getting, getting, I'd always blame it on you and be like,
you know, or if I was going to, I wanted to go, you know, work out with some
people or go out and, you know, afterwards and be like, yeah, skinny's fine.
He's got us going again, man. Like, oh, yeah, total asshole.

(01:09:10):
Again, the truth is the truth. You know, like, yeah. It was,
yeah, that's true. I did make that easy. Yes, I did.
Remember the homeless guy that you took a friendship to? Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know,
you would give me updates every week in a weekly meeting about this guy.
And then I'm like, skinny, really don't give him money.

(01:09:32):
You go, no, he's not really. he chooses to be homeless he makes all
this money he doesn't need any money and then like as the stories went along
he's like yeah he needs some money like skinny don't get don't give him money
like seriously like this just shows like how soft you are in a way like don't
give him money you're like nah i won't and then as the story like you stopped
telling the stories i go skinny you gave the guy money didn't you yeah yeah he's gonna pay me back.

(01:09:57):
This guy worked you over for like
months and then finally gave himself a
chunk of change and he just left you it's like you couldn't even make a homeless
guy for a front it was like the craziest thing in the world well it was a couple
yeah it was a couple hundred bucks and it was uh and i think it was thanksgiving

(01:10:17):
or christmas one of those times and yeah i was leaving late and he He was there by himself and yeah.
Oh, you don't worry about it. He's going to pay me back.
But you did a lot of great things too. There's other stories.
I mean, when you're telling me of, you know, helping a friend out who had a
child daycare place and, you know, giving him some money to help, help out with that.

(01:10:37):
There's like all these stories and you did so much good for,
for people that you knew that your heart was always in the right place.
You know, your, your, your, you know, your sister with college.
And there was a lot of things that I remember of things that you did.
You never publicized it.
I don't even know how it ever came up in conversation, but.

(01:10:59):
Things that stuck with me and things that I've said, Oh my gosh, you know what?
Someday I'd love to do those things too, you know, take care of family or,
you know, in-laws and, and, and, and things like that.
And, you know, it was, it was great to witness those things.
You know, I asked you a question if you do it all over again and such for me,

(01:11:19):
it's a, it's a pointed yes.
I had this opportunity to work with you for a really long time. time
is i tell people we broke up for a little bit we got
back together you know later on and you know
i always appreciate appreciated it and you know
the relationship we had through the ups and even some of the downs but
for the most part when you look at it it was just a positive experience and

(01:11:41):
um something that you know for half my life i i've literally you know spent
with you and that's that's awesome and special to me thank you that means a lot it's you know it,
you know one of the things that always always been important to me was just
to have my time matter you know what i mean yeah and you know and when you walk away or you feel like,

(01:12:04):
you know piece of shit most of the time you don't have that feeling right and
so i appreciate that because you know look i look i just i you know these are
the things that i'm i'm realizing for the first time you know and you know and
thankfully when you when you're saying i'm at a spot in my my life where I'm
able to hear them and appreciate them and be grateful for them.

(01:12:25):
So I just want your audience to know, though, to like, OK, you know,
how'd you go from corporate Graham to, you know, this?
How did I go from no compassion to from no compassion to a decent amount of compassion?
But you know what? But I want them to know that it was there.
It really it really it really was there. there

(01:12:48):
and hey look people grow and people
people change you can't expect anyone to
be what they are in their you know mid-40s to
be that you know that same person when they were 21 like that just that's that's
just never gonna that's just never gonna happen but you know over the time that
you know you and I were we're working together like these things just resonate

(01:13:13):
with me and it It wasn't things that I had to like,
oh, my gosh, let me think about those things that pop up all the time.
And, you know, you know, day to day things I talk about with my wife,
things I talk about with, you know, with team members and friends.
And it's just a part of my a part of my life. So I wouldn't say that you you completely change.
I just say, hey, look, you grew from where you from where you were.

(01:13:36):
And it's pretty much your point. Yeah, I just taken off the I've taken off the masks.
Because i've learned how to become comfortable in my own skin learn how to understand
myself which is obviously really important to becoming comfortable in your own
skin right and yeah but i've all in some of that too is it's so funny as you
say all these things you know at the time.
Like i guess i also i don't think i ever realized that how i said i had a bigger

(01:13:59):
personality than what i think i realized even like when i was when i was even
when i was tough thought i was being quiet or fitting in or whatever else right
like but no i wasn't right and as you say these things I go, wow, wow, wow.
Those are okay. Yeah, I guess I always joked around about providing memorable
moments, but yeah, I guess we really did because, yeah, anyway, there's a lot of.

(01:14:22):
Lot of fun times yeah and look you
you always help us navigate through the tough times too and that's
that's what that's what i remember the most there's this like quote by
oprah that i suppose used today and it's like hey look it's
it's not who rides with you in the limo you know
your friends are the ones that are gonna you know ride with you in the
tow truck when the i mean and hey

(01:14:43):
look there was a lot of tough times individually
you know just for me in my career it was tough times
for me personally and then there was just tough times in the
industry you know that were just terrible and you
know you you always helped us navigate through
those and you always stood up for us and you stood stood by us
and you know when i

(01:15:05):
still have conversations with people you know from the team to
this day those are things we still recognize and and and
talk about so you know maybe you
don't recognize or you know or see all see all these these things just
like you don't remember every little thing you did for me you know
inside those things but i remember it and if people remember those things
then hey look you did a pretty damn good job skinny you know it definitely makes

(01:15:28):
me feel much better about you know the time spent there's no doubt right yeah
yeah you know without a doubt yeah you know you know no i mean you know i appreciate
that you know and it did it means a lot i mean obviously i'm not going to digest it
all here on the podcast because I could easily, you know, anyway.
I'm not going to bring my, I'm not going to allow my, I'm not going to take

(01:15:49):
myself into a crying mess here at the moment. I'll wait till after we end.
But wow. Yeah, no, this was, look, man, I really, by the way, did you have anything?
I know we kind of did. I, we didn't rehearse and we didn't talk about what the
questions were. It was just like, Hey man, you know, right.
Like, and so, and, and, and you deaf and it, and it was, I was very curious
to see how what was going to come from it. And it definitely was.

(01:16:13):
Was very productive and we talked about self-reflection, right?
It was definitely some very positive and productive self-reflection that I wouldn't
have given myself credit for, you know, something positive when I should have, right?
And I think that that's important for all of us, right? When it comes to rewriting
our things, anytime we can rewrite a negative story with a positive one,
that's truthful, especially the truth, right?

(01:16:33):
You got to do that, you know? And so, yeah, it really does. It means a lot.
Hey, I just want to reiterate though to you, Skiddy, like there's negative things
inside of your story, but it wasn't a negative story, you know what I mean? Right. Right. Right.
Like it's, you know, I, I, I want, I want you, you know, I want people to understand,

(01:16:55):
you know, understand that, you know, understand that too. And I know your perspective
is different, you know, totally.
I a hundred percent get that, but I think it's also a job as a friend to tell
you sometimes when your perspective is fucked up, you know, and it isn't,
it isn't, it isn't the reality of the, you know, of the situation.
And, you know but i don't
know it's it's it was an awesome it's an awesome ride

(01:17:18):
and to be honest with you i'm more sad that it's
over like than i am that
you know that we went through it you know what i'm
saying so like that that's my perspective of the situation yeah
25 years ago i could get it where i got
away with you know tying you know if
you remember you know mike young you know into his

(01:17:38):
chair with with the cord from a from a phone oh my
god to get him to stay seated right like
it was somewhat in jest somewhat serious right but to
your point about social media yeah man there's so many thankfully you know there's
just yeah i wouldn't have made it i wouldn't have doing that yeah very fortunate

(01:17:58):
that there was not social media as i was going through those learning phases
of life so i guess as we're as we're wrapping up here this is a little while Yeah.
We're, you know, I can't, you know, I really do appreciate, you know,
everything, you know, the, the honest conversation and the deep,
the depth of the conversation.
You know, and I wasn't sure, like I said, I wasn't too sure what to expect with anything.

(01:18:20):
And, but, you know, as, as, as does, you know, if you're doing what you're supposed
to be doing, where you're supposed to be doing it, you know,
things, things work out as they're supposed to.
And it's always, and, and, and a lot of times those fears are things that just
make up in our own head, you know, and I certainly did. and.
Yeah, this was great. That's all I could say. I really appreciated this tremendous.

(01:18:40):
I really appreciate you taking the time away from your family tonight to have this conversation.
Conversation yeah you know what and it was great and an honor to be asked and
i'd be lying to you and you know this is a podcast piece of it but you know
like i'm like oh my gosh it'd be great to kind of you know get back together
with with graham in the non-physical sense you know and,

(01:19:03):
and you know get it you know gives you an opportunity another end to go say
oh my gosh let's we should go out and grab a bite or you know well i invited
you like three times and And you never took me up on it. So I was like, all right.
No, you asked me to be your caddy and carry your clubs around.
I did not ask you to get out of here. He's making that up.

(01:19:25):
When I tell my friends the story, that's the story I tell.
By the way, if you are free in October, I do need a caddy. Fuck you.
I really do, though. I'm just saying. so if you
haven't found a reason to hang out before then just
pop us into the day you can pencil it in yeah yeah i'm in i'll wear something

(01:19:49):
nice i'll be there i'll meet you at night three midnight nine or midnight whatever
it was right yeah yeah all right well for those of you that are still with us
i appreciate it and i and you know and i hope that you enjoyed it you know some
insight into understanding the science of me here as we, you know,
as episode of understanding the science of you.

(01:20:10):
Anyhow. All right. Well, I'm, I'm crying. I'm laughing.
I never, never go wrong with it.
Never go wrong when you're laughing hard enough. You're so hard. You cry.
So I hope that, so I hope that whoever's that would listen and got to get some
good laughs too, because you know, that's healing medicine.
And I hope you have an awesome and blessed week. Take care.

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