John Guilyard on failure as part of the process, finding confidence, and life as a fine artist

Episode Transcript
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(00:12):
.999I'm your host Waverly, and.
I wanted to create the show because I spent most of my life filled with self doubt when it came to my creative pursuits, self conscious of what other people thought of me, and hesitant to put myself out there. 5 00:00:25,174.999 --> 00:00:35,905 My hope is that the show helps those who felt and sometimes still feel the same way I do get out of their comfort zone, challenge themselves creatively, and realize that everyone's just out here trying their best.

(00:36):
Each episode, we'll start off with a little introduction before we get into my conversation with this week's guest.
.001Then on the back end, stick around because I'll share some stories from my life, an update on how I'm doing with The Artist's Way, and leave you with something to take with you throughout the following week.
That might be a recommendation, or a quote, or just something to reflect upon.

(00:56):
Could be anything.
All right, let's get into it.
My guest this week is John Gileard.
He is a fine artist, a designer, an animator.
He could do so much, which is why he calls himself the trickiest pony, which we get into.
.999He also works at Google on the AI team, which is pretty cool. 15 00:01:13,949.999 --> 00:01:16,400 And we talk a lot about his opinions on AI. 16 00:01:16,400.1 --> 00:01:22,800 He also just happens to be my partner and we've been together for almost two and a half years now.

(01:22):
.87655102And he's the first person I told about this idea to start this show and he's just been such a big support system and He's obviously a multi hyphenate and an extremely talented person all around So he was the perfect first guest for me to have we talked about how he didn't get into the art program and in Penn State on his first try and how that affected him, how he sees comic books as a source of inspiration, how he gets over any feelings of self doubt, how he thinks about money especially when it comes to pursuing creative things and his thoughts on AI and much more. 18 00:01:58,863.87655102 --> 00:02:01,459.341 All right, enjoy my conversation with John Gilliard. 19 00:02:07,459.341 --> 00:02:08,249.341 all right, everyone. 20 00:02:08,249.341 --> 00:02:09,419.341 Welcome to the show. 21 00:02:09,769.341 --> 00:02:10,709.341 This feels weird. 22 00:02:10,709.341 --> 00:02:13,219.341 I am interviewing my wonderful boyfriend. 23 00:02:13,699.341 --> 00:02:15,709.341 Normally our conversations aren't on mic, so this is. 24 00:02:16,169.341 --> 00:02:26,359.342 Funny, I feel like but John is a multi talented artist, which we will get into And he's my wonderful domestic partner Hi, john Are we starting? Yes. 25 00:02:26,479.342 --> 00:02:26,879.342 Okay. 26 00:02:26,889.342 --> 00:02:27,99.342 Yes. 27 00:02:27,99.342 --> 00:02:27,799.342 We're recording. 28 00:02:28,9.342 --> 00:02:28,309.342 Sorry. 29 00:02:28,309.342 --> 00:02:33,389.344 That's just some podcast humor Anyway you have so many creative talents and skills. 30 00:02:33,389.344 --> 00:02:47,659.344 Can you tell us a bit about What you do and how would you describe yourself? I I would describe myself as a friend of the pod boyfriend of the pod, but also the Trickiest pony is how I like to refer to myself. 31 00:02:47,969.343 --> 00:02:51,679.343 I went to school for fine arts Drawing and painting. 32 00:02:51,739.343 --> 00:02:58,519.343 I'm a UX designer technically at Google, but I have a background in fine arts. 33 00:02:58,519.343 --> 00:03:00,169.343 I went to school for watercolor painting. 34 00:03:00,169.343 --> 00:03:03,499.342 I have a bachelor of fine arts degree. 35 00:03:04,399.342 --> 00:03:08,409.342 Then I taught myself how to animate, did motion design work for a bit. 36 00:03:08,409.342 --> 00:03:10,19.342 General graphic design. 37 00:03:10,479.343 --> 00:03:14,259.342 I think illustration's always been the core of what I enjoy doing. 38 00:03:14,819.343 --> 00:03:52,149.343 But my work has changed where Honestly, a lot of my work these days is about storytelling I do animate a little bit and I do illustrate a tiny bit, but a lot of the times my work now is Just about problem solving because I think when having a lot of skills the main part of that is having Multiple answers to one question so I think that's where the multifacetedness is important, and you do so many different projects you drew your own comic book, you've animated music videos, you watercolor paint, you draw for live events, I feel like you do so many things. 39 00:03:52,669.343 --> 00:04:04,57.98036364 Yeah, I think pays the bills, I think I love comic books because it's I think the medium that has the most control of the audience storytelling wise Where like you can do things that you can't do in film. 40 00:04:04,307.98036364 --> 00:04:24,987.98036364 You can't do in just a book without pictures And I don't know I think I find that space interesting But I'm also very well aware that it's not there's always a dream of mine, but more of a pipe dream because I guess I'm making like tech company money and a lot of the Arts industries don't really get paid the way I would like. 41 00:04:24,987.98036364 --> 00:04:27,327.98036364 So I like drawing comics for passion now. 42 00:04:27,567.98036364 --> 00:04:30,807.97936364 And I realized that everybody in that industry does it for passion. 43 00:04:31,137.97936364 --> 00:04:41,347.97936364 The way a wrestler gets injured all the time because they're wrestling for passion, not fame, the original medium you started out with was painting and drawing as a kid. 44 00:04:41,357.97936364 --> 00:04:50,777.97936364 Were you always good at that when you were little? I honestly, I think about this every now and then there was a Whenever I was like two years old, I drew a face on a block. 45 00:04:50,797.97936364 --> 00:04:58,777.97936364 And it was different than how other kids would draw a face on a block, because it had the white in the eye on there, and the nose, like a curve for the nose and a mouth. 46 00:04:59,217.97836364 --> 00:05:06,47.97936364 I'm waving with my hands, but you get, to the listeners at home, they think I painted a picture in your mind there a little bit, but just on a block. 47 00:05:06,48.07936364 --> 00:05:12,327.97836364 And then whenever I was like four or five, My mom. 48 00:05:12,847.97936364 --> 00:05:14,797.97936364 drove me to the pharmacy. 49 00:05:14,837.97936364 --> 00:05:16,497.97936364 She didn't have a driver's license too. 50 00:05:16,807.97936364 --> 00:05:19,607.97936364 Shh, but the cops are listening. 51 00:05:20,227.97936364 --> 00:05:20,857.97836364 Sorry, cops. 52 00:05:21,727.97936364 --> 00:05:24,907.97936364 But she bought me highlighters and pens. 53 00:05:24,907.97936364 --> 00:05:27,7.97886364 And we grew up pretty poor and stuff. 54 00:05:27,7.97886364 --> 00:05:29,527.97836364 So I would, it was secret that she drove me there. 55 00:05:29,527.97836364 --> 00:05:33,727.97836364 And then she used like what little money we had to buy me these art supplies. 56 00:05:33,767.97836364 --> 00:05:37,547.97836364 And I think this is my first memory of learning how to mix colors. 57 00:05:37,902.97836364 --> 00:05:47,922.97936364 Because I would watch cartoons all day and I was watching the Flintstones and at like at four or five I could draw Fred Flintstone, pretty looked like him. 58 00:05:48,572.97936364 --> 00:05:49,452.97936364 Talented child. 59 00:05:49,962.97936364 --> 00:06:08,342.97936364 But I colored him with highlighter and then I think I used like the yellow highlighter and that pink and the orange highlighter on top of each other and it actually made it gray and it made Fred Flintstone's five o'clock shadow and it was like the first time I remember color blending so you clearly had a level of artistry that most kids don't. 60 00:06:09,202.97936364 --> 00:06:13,672.97836364 Yeah I think it was I feel like it's experimentation. 61 00:06:13,882.97936364 --> 00:06:36,912.97936364 I feel I was just at a figure drawing last week and I'm not used to drawing with charcoal because those were the materials provided and I realized there's I believe in correct ways to do things, and I think especially when it comes to materials, I realize just at first I was drawing trying to capture the figure, and after I got that part down, I was just like, no, now I have to like, get the most out of drawing with charcoal. 62 00:06:37,222.97936364 --> 00:06:47,402.97936364 Using the sides of it to get these strokes and lines that you couldn't get with any other things, and just so it's like a, I think connecting that back to the multifacetedness of things. 63 00:06:48,292.97936364 --> 00:07:17,22.97836364 I think whenever I'm producing something in watercolor paint, it's because I think that's, I'm trying to do it in the way that does the most service towards watercolor paint and like that skillset versus if I'm drawing on my iPad, I want it to look more cartoony or more digital purposefully I think it's a love towards doing something well in the ways that it's meant to, so then you could remix it and do stuff later. 64 00:07:17,472.97936364 --> 00:07:19,152.97936364 But I think, I don't know, it's about mastery. 65 00:07:19,192.97836364 --> 00:07:29,12.97936364 What did you want to be when you were a kid? Did you want to pursue art? Did you know that's what you were going to get into? Growing up, you really hear the term starving artist a lot and everything. 66 00:07:29,642.97836364 --> 00:07:32,322.97736364 I wanted to be a comic book artist. 67 00:07:32,757.97836364 --> 00:07:37,577.97836364 For the longest time and then Animation minor but animation takes a whole village. 68 00:07:37,807.97836364 --> 00:08:01,632.97736364 I was never really going for that as a goal then Graphic design is what was pitched and sold as the way to make money in arts As a kid, okay, I'm gonna say I've had MySpace and Facebook statuses about like me being like a moody teenager being like, When I grow What do you want to be when you grow up? Is the hardest question I've ever been asked. 69 00:08:01,632.97736364 --> 00:08:06,552.97836364 Cause I never really thought of what my life what grown up me is doing. 70 00:08:06,722.97836364 --> 00:08:09,912.97836364 I just knew he'd be doing sick things. 71 00:08:09,972.97836364 --> 00:08:11,352.97836364 Oh my god, okay. 72 00:08:12,12.97736364 --> 00:08:18,992.97736364 So you didn't, so you had the idea of being a comic book artist, but you also weren't really sure, because it seems like you had a lot of interests. 73 00:08:19,42.97736364 --> 00:08:42,857.97786364 I'm gonna say that no one dreams, I guess people do dream of doing things for money, but I Never dreamed of like I personally I feel like a whore whenever i'm drawing at corporate events just drawing people because that's not it At what I was saying about like service towards the mediums of things Like I don't think that's a service towards the talent. 74 00:08:42,867.97686364 --> 00:08:45,247.97686364 That's a trade that's I don't know. 75 00:08:45,337.97686364 --> 00:09:06,837.97686364 I hold these things to a higher regard And I think that the way to make something less personal is always what will please fans what will get more money like i'm not a super money driven individual because i've always said like at least for the last 15 years. 76 00:09:06,927.97686364 --> 00:09:15,217.97586364 I'm like all the money i'm ever going to make already exists So i've always decoupled that From my dialogue With what I want to be when I grow up. 77 00:09:15,217.97586364 --> 00:09:16,587.97586364 Cause I always just wanted to be cool. 78 00:09:16,647.97586364 --> 00:09:17,677.97586364 You just wanted to be cool. 79 00:09:18,127.97586364 --> 00:09:24,87.97486364 But you weren't really sure what that would come into concrete form. 80 00:09:24,407.97586364 --> 00:09:30,27.97586364 When I applied to colleges, I looked for I just wanted to go to a party school. 81 00:09:30,287.97586364 --> 00:09:36,957.97486364 End of the day, I'm like a person who's failed upward from sheer being good at school. 82 00:09:36,957.97486364 --> 00:09:40,347.97486364 And Believing in my talents. 83 00:09:40,847.97486364 --> 00:10:47,792.97686364 I'm curious why You believed in your talents so much did you get a lot of validation as a kid? Or were you self doubtful? I mean everyone is very self doubtful, but I think drawing was always something that I felt like I was the best at and I wouldn't feel good about myself if I wasn't, because if we just skipped to college now, I didn't get into the BFA program the first time, and that's the first two years of college, you're doing gen eds, and I changed majors like three times, but I was originally going for advertising because selling myself and selling things is a financial future, but I really wanted to do art, I told my parents like I want to do art and they're like be an art teacher then I was like on a track to be an art teacher and there was like classes where that I was taking so you take studio classes as an art teacher as well as like pedagogical classes and I saw the BFA program they give an art studio and whatnot and the first time I applied it's the first time I put pushed myself slightly but it's the first time when it came to drawing I thought like I'm gonna win And I didn't. 84 00:10:47,852.97686364 --> 00:10:54,462.97586364 And so it was like a big, come to Jesus moment, where I'm like, I have to like, be serious about my passions and stuff. 85 00:10:54,462.97586364 --> 00:11:01,342.97486364 Yeah, that was actually next on my list to ask you, because you didn't go to college for art right away. 86 00:11:01,612.97486364 --> 00:11:08,62.97386364 You're trying to pursue more financially stable paths before you decided just to major in art and give that a try. 87 00:11:08,632.97486364 --> 00:11:21,950.85415152 Were you scared during that? And also what was that journey of self discovery and changing your major so many times I'm gonna say I did do an extra year of college, and 60 credits that went towards nothing. 88 00:11:22,590.85415152 --> 00:11:45,680.85415152 And now I would say that If you asked me if I thought I'd be successful, my answer would be like, yeah, duh I saw myself here, but if you talk to anybody who was around me that era, they would be like, one of my friends brought up recently, he was just like, I remember when you told me you were doing fine arts and you were like, bugging out, you're like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with my future. 89 00:11:46,60.85415152 --> 00:11:56,670.85365152 Plus like at the same time I got two underage drinking things because I wanted to go to a party school, but I also went to I went to Penn State which Biggest alumni association in the U. 90 00:11:56,670.85365152 --> 00:11:56,900.85315152 S. 91 00:11:56,900.85415152 --> 00:12:16,520.95315152 Like Penn State's a good school no matter how you dice it During that time, what artists did you look up to or were trying to emulate? so When watercoloring there's a handful of contemporary I'm trying to think of Jamie can you look this up? Just kidding, that's a Joe Rogan podcast joke. 92 00:12:16,920.95315152 --> 00:12:19,770.85315152 But I wanted to say Egon Scheele and Gustav Klimt. 93 00:12:19,800.85315152 --> 00:12:25,210.85315152 They were my two big, two of the big ones because they taught me how to draw hands and stuff. 94 00:12:25,670.85315152 --> 00:12:31,310.85215152 And then there's a comic artist I really like David Mack, and he went to Northern Kentucky University. 95 00:12:31,310.85215152 --> 00:12:32,90.85215152 I met him at Comic Con. 96 00:12:32,100.85215152 --> 00:12:32,600.85215152 Great guy. 97 00:12:33,180.85215152 --> 00:12:40,935.85215152 But he actually had a show where like his work was also upped by Egon Scheele's Gustav Klimt's work in Germany. 98 00:12:40,935.85215152 --> 00:13:08,105.85265152 They had a show where they put his art alongside theirs, but he entered through comics and then got really into now he basically just draws covers and does movie credit sequences, but he's a very talented watercolor painter I also liked like Damien Hurst and all of the, out y artists the way people like, I am one of those people like, if Banksy's one of your favorite artists, it's because you just don't know any contemporary fine art. 99 00:13:08,165.85265152 --> 00:13:16,885.75265152 I feel like I'm inspired by so many random things and we've had this conversation like, the only artist I ever really wanted to be like was a better version of myself. 100 00:13:16,885.75265152 --> 00:13:25,735.75265152 I think that's inspiring though, because I think a lot of people when they're just starting out, they get frustrated because they're not like somebody that they looked up to. 101 00:13:26,235.75265152 --> 00:13:31,905.75165152 They're frustrated because they want to emulate this person, but their personal skill set isn't there yet. 102 00:13:31,965.75165152 --> 00:13:41,575.75265152 But I think it takes a lot of self confidence, and I think it's very unique that, Yes, of course you had people that you looked up to, but you really were focused on yourself. 103 00:13:41,625.75265152 --> 00:13:44,485.75165152 I think that's very admirable and not as common. 104 00:13:44,915.75265152 --> 00:13:48,945.75215152 I think that it was cultivated by going to Penn State. 105 00:13:49,445.75115152 --> 00:13:53,395.75215152 When you get into the BFA program, they do give you an art studio on campus. 106 00:13:53,765.75215152 --> 00:14:04,505.75215152 If you're in like painting 300 or just like one of these other painting courses that people are in painting 1 painting 2 painting 3 and you're a BFA student the Professors would be like just go to your studio. 107 00:14:04,765.75215152 --> 00:14:15,725.75315152 Just go work on what you're trying to say with your work like it was about cultivating you as an artist because doesn't matter what crayons you have, like the 8 pack, the 32 pack, it's like what you say with it. 108 00:14:16,15.75315152 --> 00:14:29,689.54976628 So it became about what's the best way to convey my thoughts via Self-confidence comes from being able to, do things and persevere where it's tough. 109 00:14:29,929.54976628 --> 00:14:41,89.54976628 Like I know I go to, anytime I go to figure drawing, They're always asking things like, where do you start? And people will avoid drawing hands or faces. 110 00:14:41,89.54976628 --> 00:14:47,689.54976628 And that's where I start, cause I'm just like, that's the most difficult part of the journey that's the part I wanted to get best at. 111 00:14:48,299.54976628 --> 00:14:56,239.54976628 Cause then it just becomes, I don't know, it's about, if you enjoy challenging yourself, that, I think that's like another form of confidence. 112 00:14:56,789.54976628 --> 00:15:03,749.54976628 I also think that, again, I gave a brief background of my thought processes growing up. 113 00:15:04,9.54976628 --> 00:15:40,999.55076628 There has to be a little delusion to push yourself in this path, too, because you have to believe that failure will happen, but you'll get through it, because You're the best, I think you've seen it written on like the beginning of all my notebooks and on my And like my room on the dry erase board where just like you're the best that doesn't followed up I like but what if I'm right? Yeah, do you think you had to develop that within yourself because You didn't have parents that were supportive of you going into art as a career I think, it was, I wasn't trying to prove them wrong. 114 00:15:41,439.55076628 --> 00:15:45,379.54976628 I want to say that I wasn't, I was never like raging against the machine. 115 00:15:45,889.55076628 --> 00:15:51,499.54876628 But whenever I was going to be an art teacher, they were like, started talking to me about being a principal, because a principal makes more money. 116 00:15:52,359.54976628 --> 00:15:58,199.54976628 And then I thought to myself, like, why am I listening to them? What do they know about my career? Because they're not artists. 117 00:15:58,489.54976628 --> 00:15:59,889.54876628 It's not that they're not artists. 118 00:15:59,899.54976628 --> 00:16:06,734.54976628 It's more of They don't know what I know, and it's that I knew that I was the best, I think. 119 00:16:06,744.54976628 --> 00:16:11,854.44976628 And are we allowed to get inappropriate in this podcast? Yeah, it's not rated PG. 120 00:16:11,854.54976628 --> 00:16:14,774.54876628 Cause I was thinking about the phrase the other day. 121 00:16:15,134.54976628 --> 00:16:19,304.55076628 Big dick energy, and grower not sure energy, and small dick energy. 122 00:16:19,374.55076628 --> 00:16:20,94.55076628 Oh my god. 123 00:16:20,184.55076628 --> 00:16:36,149.55076628 And I think And people would tell me you have big dick energy, but I'm like a grower not a shower really and I think the difference in the in this thought process though is like person who Big dick energy and tall or just the tall dude. 124 00:16:36,149.55076628 --> 00:16:39,129.55076628 You don't really need to cultivate a confidence. 125 00:16:39,249.55076628 --> 00:17:13,889.5507663 You're just like patted on the back the whole time You're like, oh wow big dick and so there's an air of confidence, right? And I think Grower not shower energy is You're gonna be pleasantly surprised the whole point of that tangent and not sum up is I? Knew that there was things that I could see that they couldn't and I'm just like, oh wait till they get a load of me, and that being said, I did move back with my parents for four months when I couldn't get a job from having a BFA. 126 00:17:14,289.5507663 --> 00:17:18,289.5487663 And I was this close to being a rug designer in Hackensack, New Jersey. 127 00:17:18,399.5497663 --> 00:17:24,739.5497663 I want to go back to college because you didn't get into the art program on your first time around. 128 00:17:25,119.5497663 --> 00:17:35,419.6497663 How did that emotionally affect you and what did you learn from that experience of getting rejected? I think at that time I wasn't applying myself. 129 00:17:35,419.6497663 --> 00:17:47,389.6497663 I thought that I could just Get in with ease you know the phrase 99 percent perspiration 1 percent inspiration You got to work to Be successful. 130 00:17:47,389.6497663 --> 00:18:07,214.6502663 You got to put the hours in you got to You Take time and dedicate yourself to things and at the time I was still in this kind of like high school mindset where and i've always had the mindset everything works out for me because that's just I think everyone should have that mindset because Even when things are bad, everything still works out. 131 00:18:07,244.6502663 --> 00:18:18,899.7502663 You're not going to be stuck forever but at the time I was just like No, it's not gonna work out if i'm not doing anything about it it hurt to be like, to hear the phrase like that I was, that I didn't make it. 132 00:18:18,909.7502663 --> 00:18:28,639.7512663 No one told me specifically, you're not good enough, but it was like heartbreaking to realizing like, they don't think I'm good enough. 133 00:18:28,839.7512663 --> 00:18:32,459.7512663 When it just I know I am, there's other people there and I'm just like. 134 00:18:32,519.7512663 --> 00:18:35,139.7512663 She got it, just, everyone's good people. 135 00:18:35,729.7512663 --> 00:18:43,59.7522663 But there is like a competitiveness streak to it where it's about knowing what you're capable of, and yeah end of the day, I was sad. 136 00:18:43,889.7522663 --> 00:18:55,449.7522663 How did you not internalize it? When you got rejected for the first time, did you ever think I'm never gonna be good enough, I should pursue something else? Did you ever think about quitting? Nah, this, I was always all in. 137 00:18:55,449.7522663 --> 00:18:58,149.7522663 It's like something that I always did. 138 00:18:58,149.7522663 --> 00:19:01,519.7522663 My notebooks were like all just drawings, I think. 139 00:19:01,519.7522663 --> 00:19:11,139.7522663 Drawing is also how I memorize things, like I can remember, if I look at a line that I drew, I can remember what I was thinking in that moment, or what I was listening to in that moment. 140 00:19:11,629.7522663 --> 00:19:26,204.7522663 And I think, It's always been something that's been core to me because before I was the charming individual that I am now, I was the shy kid who couldn't catch a ball and was drawing during recess while all the other kids were playing football. 141 00:19:26,204.7522663 --> 00:19:36,14.7522663 but I knew that whenever I drew the masses showed up, I remember in first grade there is this dog and I can draw this dog from memory, but it's this dog I drew. 142 00:19:36,14.7522663 --> 00:19:41,394.7532663 And then I remember every other kid is asking me for a drawing of this dog. 143 00:19:41,904.7532663 --> 00:19:45,294.7532663 And I remember That was the first time girls talked to me, which was huge. 144 00:19:45,294.7532663 --> 00:19:49,984.7522663 But, I know that if I go into a public place and start drawing, strangers will talk to me. 145 00:19:49,984.7522663 --> 00:19:50,694.7522663 Cause I'm good. 146 00:19:51,114.7522663 --> 00:19:53,94.7512663 You get a lot of validation from it. 147 00:19:53,734.7522663 --> 00:19:54,404.7522663 Yeah. 148 00:19:55,44.7522663 --> 00:19:57,924.7522663 that being said, I don't do these things to look for validation. 149 00:19:58,524.7522663 --> 00:20:01,974.7522663 But, it's always nice to hear people tell me that I'm special. 150 00:20:02,414.7522663 --> 00:20:03,454.6522663 Who doesn't love that? Yeah. 151 00:20:04,74.7522663 --> 00:20:11,694.7522663 But at the same time I'm very cocky, but in a humbling way, I'm just like, if someone's Oh, that's so good. 152 00:20:12,274.7522663 --> 00:20:17,371.4169329 It's just I have to be like, but you should see what's in my head I think everything's a monument to compromise. 153 00:20:18,111.4169329 --> 00:20:23,691.4169329 The point where two lines meet and it's just like what you're trying to make, what you're trying to say, what you're able to. 154 00:20:24,191.4169329 --> 00:20:43,741.4169329 And you can just keep on increasing where this, where the Dow Jones goes, like that stock's only going up, what was a particular skill that you weren't naturally good at, but you had to learn to be better? And how did you? I took a job doing motion design before I knew how to use After Effects. 155 00:20:43,741.5169329 --> 00:20:49,351.4169329 And I'm gonna say that I have a minor scripting and code. 156 00:20:49,351.4169329 --> 00:20:54,651.4174329 I used to sell MySpace layouts in middle school, and I made a website in middle school from like GeoCity. 157 00:20:54,651.4174329 --> 00:20:59,691.4174329 So like I knew how to write HTML, which is loosely helpful when it comes to scripting and stuff. 158 00:20:59,711.4174329 --> 00:21:09,51.4174329 But I fundamentally Didn't really know how to work After Effects because it's not like using Windows Movie Maker, which I was trained on. 159 00:21:09,51.4174329 --> 00:21:12,911.4174329 I didn't really use GarageBand because I used to like edit videos growing up. 160 00:21:12,911.4174329 --> 00:21:22,761.4174329 It's closer to like Sony Vegas, and I hate Premiere, but using After Effects, I would download templates of other people's like Title sequences. 161 00:21:22,761.4174329 --> 00:21:25,901.4174329 Cause that's what I did a lot of motion graphics kind of things. 162 00:21:26,341.4174329 --> 00:21:40,431.4174329 And let's say it's put your logo into this spot and then it'll like spin and catch fire and appear would be like the template that I downloaded and I would just like mess around with things and understand why. 163 00:21:40,821.4174329 --> 00:21:43,481.4174329 It looks like taking apart a toaster to understand it. 164 00:21:44,21.4174329 --> 00:21:45,221.4174329 And then after that. 165 00:21:45,221.4174329 --> 00:21:48,311.4174329 Once I could do it without looking back. 166 00:21:48,611.4174329 --> 00:21:50,311.4174329 Where I could do it forward. 167 00:21:50,371.4174329 --> 00:21:57,676.4174329 Cause I think teaching yourself by forcing yourself through the steps, or I guess getting a firm understanding. 168 00:21:57,676.4174329 --> 00:22:00,376.4174329 Going way back to the materials again. 169 00:22:00,526.4174329 --> 00:22:02,806.4174329 It's about understanding the materials you're working with. 170 00:22:03,426.4164329 --> 00:22:10,706.4174329 Motion graphics was just a whole new Game you mentioned earlier that you didn't find a job right away after college. 171 00:22:10,736.4174329 --> 00:22:21,706.3174329 Can you tell me a little bit about that time period in your life and how were you feeling? Were you self doubtful? Were you confused? Scared? What was that time like? It was tough. 172 00:22:21,706.3174329 --> 00:22:29,312.9850996 I remember three months in my dad was just like, so are you just going to live in our basement forever? I was also going through a breakup and it was like a low point. 173 00:22:29,932.9850996 --> 00:22:41,522.9840996 But I remember I would take all kinds of interviews and can't be choosers, but I was always picky because it is thinking about what do you want to do with your future? And. 174 00:22:42,17.9850996 --> 00:22:58,277.9840996 The people for the Hackensack Rug Company, the guy was really nice I drove to New Jersey and did the interview, and then they offered me, they were like, and I was like, I'm good, and they were like, we'll pay for a hotel, and you just work two weeks, see if you like it. 175 00:22:58,667.9840996 --> 00:22:59,342.8840996 And, yeah. 176 00:22:59,792.9840996 --> 00:23:02,372.9840996 I knew that like my career, I didn't want to do rug design. 177 00:23:03,12.9840996 --> 00:23:07,532.9830996 And I applied to this job that was an illustrator role. 178 00:23:07,532.9840996 --> 00:23:10,42.8840996 It was like an internship at SAP. 179 00:23:10,42.9840996 --> 00:23:15,42.9840996 And I looked at the previous guy's work and it was like more in line with what I wanted to do. 180 00:23:15,312.9830996 --> 00:23:23,542.9840996 And I remember driving back from Hackensack, New Jersey and seeing the SAP logo on the MetLife stadium and thinking I hope I get that job. 181 00:23:23,972.9840996 --> 00:23:26,572.9840996 Cause like I needed the win. 182 00:23:26,872.9840996 --> 00:23:32,122.9840996 But it was like, Nervous man, like that's when you start looking at I'm gonna look at my horoscope every day. 183 00:23:32,162.9840996 --> 00:24:00,222.9815996 Maybe I'll pray Maybe you start looking for like different Cosmic entities to guide you because you're doing everything you can but it's end of the day I did have a pretty decent looking resume from Making the penn state like student handbook and doing a bunch of illustration work That was now like all hidden from my website, but at the time it was like good enough to get a foot in the door. 184 00:24:00,222.9815996 --> 00:24:01,72.9815996 Absolutely. 185 00:24:01,392.9815996 --> 00:24:54,607.9805996 Was there ever a time when you were thinking about, I don't know, maybe not pursuing art or not pursuing what you originally wanted to because you weren't finding a job? I was blessed not to be in a situation of necessity where i'm like Oh, i'm gonna be I don't have anywhere to live or i'm like I was privileged enough to have strength in my resolve I guess because i've been laid off to Before where I was laid off for nine months You And similar, I just got out of a breakup and I was just I feel like I applied to every job and I was freelancing, driving to New Jersey to like work at some ad company for four days a week, driving and doing medical pharmaceutical videos and interviewing like different jobs where I got job offers and I was still picky cause I'm just like, I don't want to, that's not something I would see myself growing in. 186 00:24:54,957.9805996 --> 00:25:09,287.9805996 There's a, I think I've told you this before because someone's told me this, but if there's not somebody at your office that you can see yourself being in like five to 10 years, then it'll start to feel like a dead end after a while. 187 00:25:09,937.9805996 --> 00:25:15,767.9805996 And I know that I've strayed really far from the initial question. 188 00:25:15,767.9805996 --> 00:25:50,77.9815996 Did I ever want to not do art or design or? No, because I ended up cultivating a bunch of different talents where I Ended being a unicorn wherever I go so If anything, I prefer more open jobs like someone will pass me a oh Here's a motion design role and I'm like I don't want to be the motion designer of a team where that's all I do is motion design Or like I think I would hate if my job was honestly all illustration because I'm like I want to do this I want to make this nice slipper. 189 00:25:50,77.9815996 --> 00:25:59,227.9815996 I love that but um illustration's still at the core, but I've always been an internal agency when I go places now, at this point. 190 00:25:59,607.9815996 --> 00:26:00,457.9820996 I'm a catch all. 191 00:26:00,457.9820996 --> 00:26:02,17.9810996 Oh, you need someone to build a website. 192 00:26:02,17.9820996 --> 00:26:10,927.9810996 Oh, you need someone to make a banner, design a logo, animate an image for a blog post, make GIFs. 193 00:26:11,277.9810996 --> 00:26:11,607.9810996 Yeah. 194 00:26:11,707.9810996 --> 00:26:18,107.9810996 Is the reason why you're so multi talented? Because of ADHD? Yeah, because of ADHD. 195 00:26:18,377.9810996 --> 00:26:35,187.9810996 No, because your interests just pull you in a lot of different directions and you want to express yourself through animation or drawing or painting or video or was like getting a multifaceted skill set, a survival mechanism to be in this industry and have a lot of skills. 196 00:26:35,187.9810996 --> 00:26:53,97.9800996 I was never really using it as a survival mechanism because But I have seen people who it has helped me survive because I have seen people who are like flailing in their jobs because their manager wants them to be like six different things whenever they're not like all six of those. 197 00:26:53,377.9800996 --> 00:26:56,827.9800996 Luckily, I've been able to teach myself on the fly how to do things. 198 00:26:56,887.9800996 --> 00:27:04,17.9800996 And it's not, what was, you asked, what was the first part of the two part question? I guess you have all these different skill sets. 199 00:27:04,27.9800996 --> 00:27:09,247.9790996 What was the one that's not survival? Just because you're pulled in different directions creatively. 200 00:27:09,637.9790996 --> 00:27:19,637.9800996 Okay, cause I was gonna say, and the analogy I had in my mind changed when you said survival because I'm just like, no, that's why people learn multiple languages. 201 00:27:19,717.9800996 --> 00:27:22,927.9790996 But it is, again, earlier I said. 202 00:27:22,987.9790996 --> 00:27:32,117.9795996 having multiple ways to answer a question is what it is to be that and think of it as language where Oh, these languages are adjacent. 203 00:27:32,127.9795996 --> 00:27:34,377.9795996 Drawing is adjacent to painting. 204 00:27:34,377.9795996 --> 00:27:37,147.9785996 Painting is adjacent to sculpting. 205 00:27:37,147.9795996 --> 00:27:46,547.9785996 Sculpting is adjacent to designing and 3d design and it all, everything influences each other. 206 00:27:46,937.9785996 --> 00:27:53,97.9785996 And if Spanish you're probably gonna pick up Italian a little bit easier. 207 00:27:53,307.9785996 --> 00:27:55,427.9775996 That's probably not a good, but No, I think it is. 208 00:27:55,428.0775996 --> 00:27:58,599.5609329 I think it's a good analogy, because those languages are related. 209 00:27:58,599.5609329 --> 00:28:01,477.9765996 Yeah, and so it becomes about, again, communication. 210 00:28:01,537.9765996 --> 00:28:05,907.9775996 That's, I think, the basis of all this, is communication and conveying of thoughts. 211 00:28:05,958.0775996 --> 00:28:11,988.0775996 You mentioned a few setbacks that you've had in your career, like not getting into the art program, not being able to find a job. 212 00:28:11,988.0775996 --> 00:29:06,753.0785996 Were there any other major setbacks that you've experienced that you had to push through? On the flip side, I was gonna say, cause you asked Oh, did you ever want to change? Your role and so during the pandemic I was working at a big media company and a lot of the times that my A lot of times as a designer and stuff there really isn't head count for that because there's a hard time having a bit pairing a business function Of how are they bringing in revenue? with that role so You'll be like in a role where you're technically something else But you're the designer and the team because that's the only way they could have they could get it is You And during the pandemic, there was a bunch of layoffs and reorgs, and I was getting moved into a different team it was just like an, a business management role, because I can't remember what my job title was, but they tried to put me on this other team where I wouldn't do any design. 213 00:29:06,933.0785996 --> 00:29:09,873.0795996 I would be like client facing and trying to. 214 00:29:10,318.0795996 --> 00:29:14,258.0795996 do advertising, and that's just not where my heart was. 215 00:29:14,558.0795996 --> 00:29:19,768.0785996 And I would talk to HR and HR would be like I didn't always want to be an HR person. 216 00:29:19,768.0785996 --> 00:29:22,428.0795996 Like I went to other things and came back to being an HR person. 217 00:29:22,428.0795996 --> 00:29:23,738.0795996 I'm like, that's a bad analogy. 218 00:29:23,738.0795996 --> 00:29:25,278.0795996 You ended up going back. 219 00:29:25,318.0795996 --> 00:29:26,998.0795996 I don't want to leave and come back. 220 00:29:26,998.0795996 --> 00:29:30,328.0795996 And then I would talk to like higher ups, like the VP. 221 00:29:30,358.0795996 --> 00:29:32,868.0795996 And she was just like at least you have a job. 222 00:29:33,493.0795996 --> 00:29:40,133.0795996 And so when the time came, I was like, this is not the job that I applied to or interviewed for. 223 00:29:40,133.0795996 --> 00:29:47,983.0805996 I knew that the cards were in my hand where I'm like, if I tell them that I'm not going to do this, if they fire me, they lose that budget. 224 00:29:48,33.0805996 --> 00:29:54,363.0805996 It was strength in my resolve and I connected with other people within the national broadcasting. 225 00:29:54,928.0805996 --> 00:29:55,918.0805996 Association. 226 00:29:56,148.0805996 --> 00:29:57,678.0805996 No, just kidding. 227 00:29:57,758.0805996 --> 00:29:58,468.0805996 I shouldn't say that. 228 00:29:58,468.0805996 --> 00:29:59,128.0805996 It's NBC. 229 00:29:59,488.0805996 --> 00:29:59,858.0805996 Just kidding. 230 00:30:00,78.0805996 --> 00:30:00,548.0805996 Just kidding. 231 00:30:00,548.0805996 --> 00:30:01,18.0805996 I don't care. 232 00:30:01,438.0805996 --> 00:30:08,688.0805996 But yeah, they tried to move me and I stood on this ground just no, I went to school for art. 233 00:30:08,708.0805996 --> 00:30:15,488.0805996 I've been a designer for five years, six years at this point, I'm not going to change my career because of the pandemic. 234 00:30:15,488.0805996 --> 00:30:16,728.0805996 The cards were in my hands. 235 00:30:16,738.0805996 --> 00:30:19,948.0805996 And so I got moved to a team where I ended up making peacock ads. 236 00:30:19,948.0805996 --> 00:30:25,138.0805996 And it was significantly more helpful to my career to be like, I don't. 237 00:30:26,18.0795996 --> 00:30:33,448.0795996 If I prefer, if you'd laid me off, then put me in a role where I'm not doing what I want to do, because I'm not going to be, I'll just be bad at that job. 238 00:30:33,918.0795996 --> 00:30:34,348.0795996 And. 239 00:30:34,363.1805996 --> 00:30:41,123.0805996 But what, getting 50k? Yeah, NBC notoriously does not pay the best. 240 00:30:41,163.0805996 --> 00:30:43,123.0795996 As someone who's also worked for NBC. 241 00:30:43,173.0805996 --> 00:30:45,223.0800996 And it's it's just, it's not their fault. 242 00:30:45,243.0800996 --> 00:30:49,443.0790996 It's old money media and an ever changing landscape. 243 00:30:50,183.0800996 --> 00:30:53,803.0800996 Ever changing landscape is their, it's their favorite two words. 244 00:30:53,813.0800996 --> 00:30:55,363.0800996 It's in every company memo. 245 00:30:55,733.0800996 --> 00:30:56,323.0800996 Yeah. 246 00:30:56,603.0800996 --> 00:31:05,3.0790996 Anytime they're like, we're going into Q3 and we're facing an ever changing media landscape every corporate email has those two words. 247 00:31:05,283.0780996 --> 00:31:19,833.0785996 I'm gonna say outside of that time at NBC, I loved my time at NBC, and we'll say that they are legacy media and going from broadcast to at the time I remember Helping make pitches and graphics for news on Snapchat. 248 00:31:20,523.0785996 --> 00:31:31,193.0775996 And it is an ever changing media landscape because who's watching news on Snapchat in 2024? I looked at my watch to say 2024. 249 00:31:31,193.0775996 --> 00:31:35,413.0775996 it's so true though because, my job is mostly making content for Tik TOK. 250 00:31:35,773.0775996 --> 00:31:37,703.0775996 And that was also like my previous job. 251 00:31:37,703.0775996 --> 00:31:42,113.0765996 So like for the past three years, I've been working mainly on Tik TOK and like Instagram reels. 252 00:31:42,443.0775996 --> 00:31:44,833.0765996 But when I was in college, Tik TOK, wasn't even a thing. 253 00:31:44,863.0775996 --> 00:31:46,973.0775996 And I didn't graduate college that long ago. 254 00:31:47,343.0765996 --> 00:31:52,76.4099329 Everything's changing, so that's another thing for you kids at home, like. 255 00:31:52,576.4099329 --> 00:32:05,16.4099329 And I know, I guess here's the controversial hot clip where I'm like a big part of AI right now is people are really scared of AI taking roles, taking jobs, and that's understandable. 256 00:32:05,126.4099329 --> 00:32:23,6.4099329 And there are people and policy makers that are Making it harder for people, but also there are companies that are working towards like making tools for creators, making tools with like musicians and artists and stuff. 257 00:32:23,16.4089329 --> 00:32:33,686.4099329 There's like a, there's an art show it hosted by Google and my team that's coming up in November called alternate images made with AI. 258 00:32:34,96.4099329 --> 00:33:08,863.0432663 And Just showing like other things to make where it's treating it as a separate art form And I know that these things are on the backs of individuals, but I think adding things to your Skill set I know i'm not like i'm not saying be a prompt engineer, but i'm saying that using People were very scared of photoshop when I first came to that using these as tools within your practice Like i'm not a big believer in just like Prompting and generating a whole bunch of art and being like, I'm an artist because art is knowing when to stop. 259 00:33:08,863.0432663 --> 00:33:10,716.4099329 Knowing when something's finished. 260 00:33:10,716.4099329 --> 00:33:12,96.4099329 It's it's about decision making. 261 00:33:13,39.7422663 --> 00:33:17,99.7422663 Outsourcing your decision making is the antithesis of art in my opinion. 262 00:33:17,99.7422663 --> 00:33:19,529.7412663 Cause I think Pandora is out of the box. 263 00:33:20,129.7422663 --> 00:33:22,99.7412663 It's not going back in the box. 264 00:33:22,389.7412663 --> 00:33:25,149.7412663 With AI in particular? With AI in particular. 265 00:33:25,399.7412663 --> 00:33:27,69.7412663 And the invention of the camera. 266 00:33:27,69.7412663 --> 00:33:56,338.0735996 A lot of people who drew portraits for people's in their homes like that was at the time That was like there's one of those dudes in every town There's oh the portrait guy who he paints the portrait of me and my family we hang it in the house like he lost his job and It's rough but also at the same time art changed from being You photorealistic pictures of people to expressing more with it. 267 00:33:56,538.0735996 --> 00:34:00,78.0735996 And I also think that AI stuff isn't at a final point. 268 00:34:00,148.0735996 --> 00:34:01,558.0735996 It's its own like medium. 269 00:34:01,918.0725996 --> 00:34:03,588.0725996 AI is complicated for sure. 270 00:34:03,608.0715996 --> 00:34:04,18.0715996 Yeah. 271 00:34:04,358.0715996 --> 00:34:05,348.0715996 It's so new. 272 00:34:05,398.0725996 --> 00:34:21,38.0725996 We are in the very beginning era of AI where I feel like in a hundred, two hundred years from now people are gonna think how we think of cavemen, At the end of the day, I think where AI is best is an outsource of things I think ai. 273 00:34:21,433.0725996 --> 00:34:48,348.0725996 is good for I don't feel like photoshopping this like section of a person out I'm, just going to highlight it and generate over and stuff doing things that Making things a little bit more effortless at parts, but so you can focus on the meat and the potatoes and I think from a big business standpoint though the saying is what they're applying to the design fields or the other fields that are currently being like, I don't know. 274 00:34:48,348.0725996 --> 00:34:49,738.0725996 It shouldn't be a smoothie. 275 00:34:49,738.0725996 --> 00:34:57,118.0715996 It should be more of an acai bowl with peanut butter and maybe yogurt, cut up bananas and stuff. 276 00:34:57,418.0715996 --> 00:35:01,458.0715996 I don't want it to chew my food for me and give it to me as a smoothie. 277 00:35:02,108.0715996 --> 00:35:07,227.9715996 I think having bits of it is okay. 278 00:35:08,8.0715996 --> 00:35:11,318.0715996 I'm not an apologist for AI, I'm just saying. 279 00:35:11,378.0715996 --> 00:35:13,588.0715996 Anyways, let's change the subject. 280 00:35:13,588.0715996 --> 00:35:14,738.0715996 I'm gonna drink some water. 281 00:35:14,948.0715996 --> 00:35:15,408.0715996 Okay. 282 00:35:15,408.0715996 --> 00:35:16,658.0715996 A moment for my sponsors. 283 00:35:16,658.0715996 --> 00:35:18,258.0705996 Hey, Apartments. 284 00:35:18,468.0715996 --> 00:35:18,968.0715996 com. 285 00:35:19,28.0715996 --> 00:35:20,498.0715996 I used to do their commercials on Peacock. 286 00:35:20,498.0715996 --> 00:35:23,448.0715996 Yeah, if anyone wants to sponsor this show, please reach out. 287 00:35:23,518.0715996 --> 00:35:24,988.0715996 I will happily take your money. 288 00:35:25,258.0715996 --> 00:35:26,48.0715996 Stay farmed. 289 00:35:26,218.0715996 --> 00:35:28,868.0715996 I used to make ads with Jake from stay farmed. 290 00:35:28,918.0715996 --> 00:35:30,208.0715996 I've sold insurance. 291 00:35:30,208.0715996 --> 00:35:31,928.0715996 This podcast can sell insurance. 292 00:35:31,928.1715996 --> 00:35:38,528.1715996 What's a recent piece of work that you saw or consumed that inspired you? So. 293 00:35:39,28.1715996 --> 00:35:43,138.1715996 I recently watched the show Heels on Netflix. 294 00:35:43,158.1715996 --> 00:35:48,328.1715996 And it's about wrestling Like, it's a hard drama about something that's so silly. 295 00:35:48,328.1715996 --> 00:35:52,68.1715996 Wrestling is performative dance, closer to the insults towards each other. 296 00:35:52,68.1715996 --> 00:35:55,78.1705996 It's just we're making a wrestling show, you're not going to win a Tony Award for it. 297 00:35:55,658.1715996 --> 00:36:03,598.1715996 But, it's people breaking their bodies, and taking and using, and living within the language of something. 298 00:36:03,598.1715996 --> 00:36:11,498.1715996 To just, Go hard and support their passions, I think I'm inspired by anything that supports someone's passions. 299 00:36:11,548.1715996 --> 00:36:48,298.1700996 We watched the movie The Disaster Artist before with Tommy Wiseau, who made The Room, which is an awful movie, it's known as the worst movie ever, but there's bits and pieces where you can see, That what he was doing, why he was putting all this money in, it's a labor of love, I'm inspired whenever I watch something or see something and it's you can tell it was a labor of love and you can always get it from the little kernels of things that are in there where that slipped through the crack because A part of any, a part of getting anything on television, and I'm sorry, I'm using television as versus art or something that I do here. 300 00:36:48,298.2700996 --> 00:36:48,568.1700996 No, it's okay. 301 00:36:48,578.1700996 --> 00:36:49,188.1700996 It could be anything. 302 00:36:49,278.1700996 --> 00:36:55,88.1700996 Is because, that takes the village, but it also, you need to get a lot of funding and budgets. 303 00:36:55,98.1700996 --> 00:36:59,718.1690996 And I think things start to suck once it becomes how can we pander to this demographic. 304 00:36:59,778.1690996 --> 00:37:04,428.1700996 What's the least amount of point of view I can have in something? So everyone will like it. 305 00:37:04,538.1700996 --> 00:37:14,778.1680996 And then it ends up being something bland, and not personal, not I'm not learning about the people who made it by watching it, and here's my last example. 306 00:37:15,538.1700996 --> 00:37:24,978.1690996 Is, there's like this Disney Channel movie I grew up watching called Don't Look Under the Bed, and it's about a girl who, she finds out that her imaginary friend has turned into a boogeyman. 307 00:37:25,368.1690996 --> 00:37:34,828.1690996 And her little brother, her little sister's imaginary friend is like teaming up with her to help stop the boogeyman from trying to get her sister. 308 00:37:35,238.1690996 --> 00:37:44,48.1700996 Anyways, in the middle of the movie, there's a small soliloquy, like this rant by someone explaining dreams and nightmares. 309 00:37:44,288.1700996 --> 00:37:49,668.1700996 Where it was just like all pseudoscience but also had a logical presentation of it. 310 00:37:50,13.1700996 --> 00:37:56,873.1700996 And, to myself, I thought whoever wrote this movie, wrote it specifically because this was their thesis. 311 00:37:57,493.1700996 --> 00:38:04,53.1690996 And I like, trying to point out, I'll do something all in service of a bad joke. 312 00:38:04,353.1700996 --> 00:38:07,433.1700996 Where I'm like, I did this so this could pay off later. 313 00:38:08,3.1700996 --> 00:38:18,493.1700996 And I love seeing just kernels of why something was made or what inspired it to the person why it was like Yeah, I don't know. 314 00:38:18,523.1700996 --> 00:38:53,503.1705996 I just love passion Has imposter syndrome ever affected you Oh, yeah, dude, I constantly feel I think I didn't actually go to college and I always felt like I was behind Because a lot of my friends I was at a frat so everybody was financed And I was like The I was the art guy in the frat house and the frat guy in the art Studios, so there's always like a sense of otherness That I had and I guess that's not that's not imposter syndrome It hasn't, I haven't had it for a while because I haven't been in places where I'm challenging myself where I'm like, I can't do this. 315 00:38:53,803.1715996 --> 00:38:56,933.1715996 I can't, I think I'm very competent in my career now. 316 00:38:57,363.1705996 --> 00:39:12,813.1715996 What gives me the most imposter syndrome is whenever people are like patting me in the back and saying that telling me I'm, like, successful and stuff I don't personally feel I am where I envisioned me now, younger me, all you dreamed of was being cool. 317 00:39:12,813.1715996 --> 00:39:13,653.1725996 I guess I am cool. 318 00:39:13,883.1715996 --> 00:39:22,383.1725996 Got that check, but like, I'm making cool things and stuff, but the imposter syndrome is. 319 00:39:22,383.1725996 --> 00:39:27,923.1725996 It stems from letting like the inner child of me down and not that's not imposter syndrome. 320 00:39:28,153.1725996 --> 00:39:29,393.1720996 I guess I don't get imposter syndrome. 321 00:39:29,393.1720996 --> 00:39:32,313.1725996 I have had it where like I'm not fit to do this. 322 00:39:32,313.1725996 --> 00:39:33,663.1715996 I can't, I'm not good enough. 323 00:39:34,283.1725996 --> 00:39:40,733.1745996 But now it's just been a while since I've been given a problem that I don't think I could solve. 324 00:39:41,563.1745996 --> 00:39:42,33.1745996 Mhm. 325 00:39:42,33.1745996 --> 00:40:06,683.2750996 What is something that you do differently now? Then when you were just starting out I took an atelier class in watercolor painting at the New York Academy of Arts and I used to I would leave a lot of white on the paper, and then I would basically only do a small segment of what the correct process is. 326 00:40:06,923.2740996 --> 00:40:17,593.2750996 And now that I know the full process, everything takes me a lot longer because I want to do things right, and that goes back to in service of the medium. 327 00:40:17,943.2750996 --> 00:40:46,43.2760996 But There's a lot more thinking and stopping myself and stalling Because I want to do things the right way Versus, I think, when I was younger I would just do things and be like, this is great now, there's I think, I don't, I second guess myself a lot less now But I'm a lot harder on myself Because I know the right and wrong ways to do things yeah, I'm just thinking of things within the workplace, but not skill wise. 328 00:40:46,123.2760996 --> 00:40:46,653.2760996 That's okay. 329 00:40:46,673.2760996 --> 00:40:59,743.2760996 Cause process is still, I mean as a, in a design standpoint, if you guys ever make logos and stuff, it's, making logos is making 200 logos and 198 of them are the wrong logo. 330 00:41:00,293.2760996 --> 00:41:02,263.2770996 I just fail a lot faster now. 331 00:41:02,263.2770996 --> 00:41:02,303.2770996 Yeah. 332 00:41:02,303.2770996 --> 00:41:07,3.2770996 I do more ideas a lot quicker, get things out of the way. 333 00:41:07,693.2770996 --> 00:41:14,343.2770996 I will still do the ideas that, the person who asked me to make the logo would ask me to make like their idea. 334 00:41:14,348.2770996 --> 00:41:15,873.2770996 And I'd be like, ah, that's not a good idea. 335 00:41:15,873.2770996 --> 00:41:21,753.2770996 I now make their logo to show them why that logo doesn't work, but also maybe there's something, an idea I get while making it. 336 00:41:22,83.2770996 --> 00:41:35,223.2780996 It actually leads really well into my next question, which is, what role does failure play for you? Dude, my my office is littered with Pieces of paper that have one line on them because I ruined the page by that line. 337 00:41:35,663.2780996 --> 00:41:44,733.2785996 I think I think anytime I get a sketchbook and I start drawing in it, I have to get a bad drawing out of the way fast so it stops being sacred. 338 00:41:45,343.2775996 --> 00:41:51,563.2775996 Where I'm not afraid to fail because I can just try again. 339 00:41:52,93.2775996 --> 00:41:52,613.2775996 And. 340 00:41:53,248.2775996 --> 00:41:59,158.2775996 Again, I said earlier, fail faster, the keep on the repetition of everything. 341 00:41:59,158.2775996 --> 00:42:13,588.2775996 So failure plays a big part because I'd prefer to say like it's trial and error and failure seems so whole and finite when it's just like no, you, trial and error. 342 00:42:14,268.2775996 --> 00:42:15,668.2785996 It's just a part of the process. 343 00:42:16,73.2785996 --> 00:42:17,503.2785996 Yeah, and trust the process. 344 00:42:17,753.2785996 --> 00:42:20,93.2785996 Trust the process for you fans listening. 345 00:42:20,303.2785996 --> 00:42:33,443.2785996 So the Sixers one season lost a bunch of games on purpose so they can get a draft, a better drafts pick and they got Joel Embiid, who's one of their star players, and he's known as the process. 346 00:42:33,833.2785996 --> 00:42:37,503.2785996 But whenever they were losing, people are like, why are you losing? And they'd be like, trust the process. 347 00:42:38,53.2785996 --> 00:42:40,213.2785996 And trust the process, put the hours in. 348 00:42:40,373.2785996 --> 00:42:41,453.2785996 Everything will come, dude. 349 00:42:41,453.2785996 --> 00:42:43,773.2785996 All the money you're ever gonna make already exists. 350 00:42:44,53.2785996 --> 00:42:44,923.2775996 You'll get it. 351 00:42:44,923.2775996 --> 00:42:54,893.2765996 And how do you define creativity? My definition of creativity is having a wide knowledge of things. 352 00:42:54,893.2765996 --> 00:42:59,443.2775996 Like what I was saying about multifaceted skills and everything, knowing a whole bunch of different languages. 353 00:42:59,443.2775996 --> 00:43:17,893.2775996 Knowing a whole bunch of different inputs and spitting out an output from connections that other people don't see, or just seeing things that other people don't, but it's because of your worldview, because of everything you've taken in, paired these ideas in your head. 354 00:43:17,903.2775996 --> 00:43:20,793.2775996 And that's, I think that's the alchemy. 355 00:43:20,793.2775996 --> 00:43:22,233.2775996 I think that's where creativity. 356 00:43:22,723.2775996 --> 00:43:34,943.2780996 Lies because it's has it's both kind of personal but also something that Seems so obvious whenever you finally apply because it but it was only obvious to you That's what makes it creative. 357 00:43:34,943.2780996 --> 00:43:35,363.2780996 Awesome. 358 00:43:35,363.2780996 --> 00:43:35,943.2780996 Thank you. 359 00:43:36,183.2780996 --> 00:43:36,443.2780996 Okay. 360 00:43:36,453.2780996 --> 00:43:38,523.2780996 We're going to switch gears now into part two. 361 00:43:38,683.2780996 --> 00:43:40,193.2780996 Are you ready? Part two. 362 00:43:40,193.3780996 --> 00:43:43,543.2780996 No, just don't worry. 363 00:43:43,543.2780996 --> 00:43:44,503.2780996 It won't be as long. 364 00:43:44,503.2780996 --> 00:43:45,223.2780996 I was kidding. 365 00:43:45,423.2780996 --> 00:43:48,173.2780996 No, it's just about what you're doing and trying now. 366 00:43:48,223.2770996 --> 00:43:54,763.1780996 What's something you're learning right now or just starting to do? And, I used to draw on a really big computer. 367 00:43:54,763.1780996 --> 00:44:01,963.1780996 I'm trying to draw a comic on an iPad and there's things, there's a lot of limitations to drawing on an iPad, so that's one thing I'm learning. 368 00:44:02,43.1770996 --> 00:44:05,793.1770996 But I've been making GIFs for work, just for internal stuff. 369 00:44:06,223.1770996 --> 00:44:08,773.1770996 Using Runway 3 ML. 370 00:44:08,783.1770996 --> 00:44:10,843.1765996 It's online, it's pretty expensive, honestly. 371 00:44:10,853.1755996 --> 00:44:12,33.1765996 I have an enterprise account. 372 00:44:12,453.1765996 --> 00:44:20,213.1785996 It does a whole bunch of generative, like you can Lip sync pictures and stuff, or like it does generative video and whatnot. 373 00:44:20,263.1785996 --> 00:44:39,443.1790996 And there's a big issue with control and things like, I think anybody who is I'm an AI artist, I'm a prompt engineer, right? It's just no, dude you're just playing slot machines smarter, and I've been trying to, it's very hard to get it to work the way I want it to because Thanks guys. 374 00:44:39,443.1790996 --> 00:44:39,453.0790996 Thanks. 375 00:44:39,913.1790996 --> 00:44:41,483.1790996 It's like an organism. 376 00:44:41,503.1790996 --> 00:44:43,893.1790996 It'll do what it wants regardless. 377 00:44:43,993.1790996 --> 00:44:45,123.1790996 So you need to fail. 378 00:44:45,333.1790996 --> 00:45:05,513.1790996 It fails a lot and even with the me putting inputs controls and one of the things I do is I used to make if I want to make a gif of a sandcastle like getting hit by waves I put a first frame and a last frame and then tell the AI to animate it. 379 00:45:05,603.1790996 --> 00:45:13,673.1790996 And it's rough because using other skills I have from photoshopping, I'll like, Oh, have a picture of this beach, photoshop the sandcastle in there. 380 00:45:13,923.1790996 --> 00:45:14,263.1790996 Nice. 381 00:45:14,263.1790996 --> 00:45:21,103.1780996 Now I photoshopped the sandcastle out, have water and have move the shoreline up and then. 382 00:45:21,103.1780996 --> 00:45:30,533.1780996 Fingers crossed it produces what I want after, and I'll render like 60 5 second clips and none of them work. 383 00:45:30,613.1780996 --> 00:45:31,43.1780996 Yeah. 384 00:45:31,63.1780996 --> 00:45:37,653.1770996 It would just like just hallucinate like dumb things the new skill that you're learning and experimenting with is AI art. 385 00:45:37,803.1770996 --> 00:45:41,173.1770996 It's not AI art, and I don't ever say that it is. 386 00:45:41,823.1770996 --> 00:45:43,833.1770996 I just thread the mic. 387 00:45:44,233.1760996 --> 00:45:47,573.1770996 But, it is control of it. 388 00:45:47,773.1770996 --> 00:45:53,773.1760996 Where I'm drawing live on Photoshop and then it's like making like a render of the thing. 389 00:45:53,823.1770996 --> 00:46:04,943.1780996 To me, I can take that render in bring it back into a painting where I'm just like, Oh, this is about getting the lighting and kind of making my own reference image from scratch. 390 00:46:05,578.1780996 --> 00:46:07,568.1780996 I guess and I know it's not from scratch. 391 00:46:07,788.1780996 --> 00:46:27,468.1770996 That's why I'm very defensive about this because It's the time don't cancel me for exploring how it works but like understanding how to create control on that because It's different than what I loved whenever I was learning after effects is Once I learned the control of it, it was when I realized like over here. 392 00:46:27,468.1770996 --> 00:46:28,228.1770996 It's all math. 393 00:46:28,808.1760996 --> 00:46:59,518.1780996 It's all oh, yeah I just need to use integers and yeah, where the math, once I understood how the math worked on it became easy and I just want to see how to get full control of these so then I can take it into my other practices cause one of my favorite documentaries, is called Beauty is Embarrassing and it's about this guy, Wayne White, who he was originally, One of the puppeteers and animators and designers of the Pee Wee Herman show. 394 00:47:00,148.1780996 --> 00:47:03,558.1780996 And he's now like known as a fine artist. 395 00:47:04,428.1770996 --> 00:47:15,888.1780996 And because of his paintings where he would take found paintings and just add stuff to it where at first, like he was never really trying to get into fine art. 396 00:47:15,908.1780996 --> 00:47:33,818.1780996 Dude plays the banjo and he always just made like kooky illustrations, but he goes on this small tangent about how he's just, I want to take a drawing, make, turn it into a painting, take the painting, turn it into a sculpture, take the sculpture, turn it into a set, take the set, turn it into a puppet, take the puppet, take it, turn it back into a painting. 397 00:47:34,208.1770996 --> 00:48:05,38.1810996 Where I'm just like, with all these languages, with all these ways of showing, just moving in between them for, again, what's trying to get, I What's in your head, out of your head, Why did you decide to start experimenting with AI in your art? I work at Google and there's there's a lot, I work with a lot of scientists and researchers Pandora is out of the box and there are use cases for it. 398 00:48:05,38.1810996 --> 00:48:07,578.1810996 There are places where it can make your life easier. 399 00:48:07,968.1810996 --> 00:48:25,38.1805996 And stuff where I still prefer using reference images from reference art websites or even I have different apps on my iPad where I have action figure esque things where I can make people move to the ways I want them to. 400 00:48:25,388.1805996 --> 00:48:28,268.1805996 But what I like about AI is that I can. 401 00:48:28,348.2805996 --> 00:48:37,138.2805996 Photo composite a lot faster because when I was working in advertising, it was all photo composition or like cook compositing photos. 402 00:48:37,338.2795996 --> 00:48:52,63.2815996 And so now I'm just making my own reference images a lot easier and faster than now also taking my reference images because, and I want to say that I'd build everything from Stock imagery. 403 00:48:52,63.2815996 --> 00:48:57,583.2815996 cause that's also how I learned how to photo composite was stock images from iStock. 404 00:48:57,913.2815996 --> 00:49:00,928.2815996 But now you can make your own stock images through ai? No. 405 00:49:00,948.2815996 --> 00:49:06,163.2815996 Is that what you're saying? No, I'm still using stock images and then like building things on top of 'em. 406 00:49:06,433.2815996 --> 00:49:20,33.2815996 There are people in play who are working on figuring out how to solve for attribution because I do think that people whose work is used for data scraping should get some kind of compensation. 407 00:49:20,263.2815996 --> 00:49:32,933.2795996 I'm pretty against AI at certain things, but I also understand that it is a part of the future, and the future is happening, it's not a part of the future, it's a part of the present now. 408 00:49:32,933.2795996 --> 00:49:37,383.2795996 Okay, do you want to move into the lightning round now? Oh, last thing though. 409 00:49:37,403.2795996 --> 00:49:37,663.2795996 Okay. 410 00:49:38,83.2795996 --> 00:49:40,983.2795996 With AI art, I don't, cause I don't do AI art. 411 00:49:41,243.2795996 --> 00:49:53,153.2795996 It's all a function for me to paint or to use as reference, but, I think, I'm excited to see how Boomers are continued to be tricked by images from AI art. 412 00:49:53,153.2795996 --> 00:49:53,713.2795996 Oh my God. 413 00:49:53,713.2795996 --> 00:50:00,383.2795996 My mom sends me so many like AI generated, like babies and like fruit costumes. 414 00:50:00,873.2795996 --> 00:50:01,493.2795996 Yeah. 415 00:50:01,523.2795996 --> 00:50:08,43.2795996 Like it'll be like a baby and like a grape onesie, but it's not like a onesie with photos of grapes on it. 416 00:50:08,73.2795996 --> 00:50:09,613.2795996 Like a normal like baby onesie. 417 00:50:09,613.2795996 --> 00:50:13,773.2795996 It's like literally like they're wearing, like they are a bundle of grapes. 418 00:50:13,993.2795996 --> 00:50:21,503.3805996 At the same time, and this isn't just your mom, but other people I do I've heard your mom ask you, isn't it? My mom's asked me to show you something. 419 00:50:21,503.3805996 --> 00:50:32,8.3805996 Is this AI? Where it is just but in the way where it's just oh, when social media was new and people are like, oh, did you get that on Facebook? Or you know what I'm saying? Yeah. 420 00:50:32,63.3805996 --> 00:50:38,363.3805996 There's a naivety to the question where they're just like lumping anything that they don't understand now into ai. 421 00:50:38,463.3805996 --> 00:50:39,993.3815996 AI is so new. 422 00:50:40,603.3815996 --> 00:50:54,3.3800996 And it's, I think it's very understandable that our parents don't really understand it and they do lump anything that they don't understand digitally into it being AI because they just don't have like the native experience that we do with it. 423 00:50:54,3.3800996 --> 00:50:57,983.3800996 Cause it's just like naturally a part of our worlds now, even though it is new to everybody. 424 00:50:58,333.3800996 --> 00:51:07,803.3800996 But they're a little older, so they didn't grow up even with computers, so it's a little more we're just like more digitally native, but who knows the crazy shit that'll be around when we're their age. 425 00:51:07,803.3800996 --> 00:51:11,798.4810996 Okay, are you ready to move into the lightning round? Ba boo! Lightning round. 426 00:51:11,798.4810996 --> 00:51:13,719.3635542 I'm gonna use that in every episode now. 427 00:51:13,719.3635542 --> 00:51:15,153.9728269 Ba boo! Lightning round. 428 00:51:15,673.9728269 --> 00:51:16,203.9728269 Thank you. 429 00:51:16,383.9728269 --> 00:51:16,833.9728269 Okay. 430 00:51:16,833.9728269 --> 00:51:24,73.9728269 What is one thing you wish you knew when you were first starting out? I wish that someone told me that life was gonna be this way. 431 00:51:24,463.9718269 --> 00:51:28,403.9718269 Just kidding, we don't have the rights to that, do we? That was the theme song for Friends. 432 00:51:28,453.9718269 --> 00:51:29,563.9718269 I think everyone knows. 433 00:51:29,993.9718269 --> 00:51:34,223.9718269 I'll be there for you when the rain starts to pour. 434 00:51:34,333.9718269 --> 00:51:39,33.9728269 What did I wish I knew? Yes, when you were first starting out. 435 00:51:39,103.9728269 --> 00:51:40,63.9728269 Trust the process. 436 00:51:40,753.9728269 --> 00:51:45,923.9718269 Do you have a lesson or a message that you want to share with listeners? Just believe in yourself. 437 00:51:46,23.9728269 --> 00:51:53,603.9718269 We're on a floating rock traveling millions of miles per hour around the Sun. 438 00:51:53,603.9718269 --> 00:51:55,623.9718269 Some people think there's a God and stuff. 439 00:51:55,883.9718269 --> 00:51:57,443.9718269 All that is all secondary. 440 00:51:57,443.9718269 --> 00:51:59,283.9718269 We're like we only have this like one life. 441 00:51:59,283.9718269 --> 00:52:13,613.8718269 So Make things that let other people connect to you really put yourself out there, believe in yourself, cause like, The last thing I ever want to do is have a life where I regret not doing things. 442 00:52:13,933.8718269 --> 00:52:21,703.8718269 I don't mind regretting things I've done, but I don't think I could live with regretting not doing something. 443 00:52:21,703.8718269 --> 00:52:24,453.8718269 Cause you owe it to yourself to do things. 444 00:52:24,453.8718269 --> 00:52:40,843.8718269 And do you have a recommendation for a book, podcast, film, or any other thing that people should watch, read, listen to? The documentary I mentioned earlier, which was Beauty is Embarrassing. 445 00:52:41,303.8718269 --> 00:52:47,403.8718269 Someone Who Will Always Love You In All Your Damaged Glory by Raphael Bob Waksberg. 446 00:52:47,403.9718269 --> 00:52:49,383.8708269 I think that's his last name. 447 00:52:49,833.8708269 --> 00:52:59,903.8708269 It's one of my favorite books of short collections of romantic comedy esque stories that'll make you exhale from your nose and are clever. 448 00:53:00,403.8708269 --> 00:53:01,623.8708269 I liked Heels on Netflix. 449 00:53:02,253.8708269 --> 00:53:03,33.8708269 Oh, those are good ones. 450 00:53:03,83.8708269 --> 00:53:03,383.8708269 Yeah. 451 00:53:03,973.8708269 --> 00:53:06,283.8708269 So those are some quick recs. 452 00:53:07,53.8708269 --> 00:53:07,803.8708269 Awesome. 453 00:53:07,843.8708269 --> 00:53:08,263.8708269 That's it. 454 00:53:08,733.8698269 --> 00:53:10,393.8698269 Thank you so much for coming on my show. 455 00:53:10,753.8708269 --> 00:53:13,3.8708269 Hey, thanks for having me. 456 00:53:13,403.8708269 --> 00:53:19,888.8708269 Where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and see your work? If you go to johngilliard. 457 00:53:19,888.8708269 --> 00:53:30,148.8708269 com, a very popular site amongst employers, circa 2022, you can see my illustrated resume and just my body of work. 458 00:53:30,158.8718269 --> 00:53:32,698.8708269 A lot of figure studies, a lot of advertisements. 459 00:53:33,198.8708269 --> 00:53:38,758.8718269 You can add me, you can follow me on Instagram at my name is Gilly. 460 00:53:38,998.8718269 --> 00:53:41,968.8718269 You can add me on Fortnite. 461 00:53:42,68.8718269 --> 00:53:44,68.8718269 It's the underscore Gillist. 462 00:53:44,68.8718269 --> 00:53:45,598.8718269 Yeah, you can play Fortnite with us. 463 00:53:46,28.8718269 --> 00:53:47,98.8718269 We play every day. 464 00:53:47,138.8718269 --> 00:53:48,988.8718269 Yeah I'm pretty, pretty good. 465 00:53:49,88.8718269 --> 00:53:50,258.8718269 Low key, the kid is nice. 466 00:53:50,258.8718269 --> 00:53:52,888.8718269 Okay, thank you, John, for coming on the show. 467 00:53:52,938.8708269 --> 00:53:53,878.8718269 Always a pleasure, thanks for having me. 468 00:53:53,878.8718269 --> 00:53:55,78.8718269 We really appreciate it. 469 00:53:55,348.8708269 --> 00:53:56,848.8718269 Alright, see you later. 470 00:53:57,8.8718269 --> 00:53:57,578.8708269 Alright, bye. 471 00:53:57,578.8708269 --> 00:54:03,158.8708269 Can you keep my joking where I'm like, Jamie, can you, so that's a Joe Rogan podcast joke. 472 00:54:03,158.8708269 --> 00:54:04,118.8708269 I just think it's funny. 473 00:54:05,108.8708269 --> 00:54:08,168.8708269 Oh I've never listened to, oh, that's his assistant. 474 00:54:08,168.8708269 --> 00:54:09,848.8708269 That's his not Monica. 475 00:54:09,878.8708269 --> 00:54:14,268.8708269 And, who's the other guy that they're always like, ask him to look stuff up and then you hear him. 476 00:54:14,268.8708269 --> 00:54:16,128.8708269 He is the producer. 477 00:54:16,398.8708269 --> 00:54:17,838.8708269 Oh, an armchair expert, Rob. 478 00:54:18,28.8708269 --> 00:54:18,268.8708269 Yeah. 479 00:54:18,268.8708269 --> 00:54:19,198.8708269 We need a rob. 480 00:54:19,203.8708269 --> 00:54:20,943.8708269 Maybe one day when the show makes money. 481 00:54:20,943.8708269 --> 00:54:22,603.8708269 I'll have an assistant. 482 00:54:22,653.8708269 --> 00:54:25,13.8708269 Was I an okay guest? Yeah, you were great, babe. 483 00:54:34,668.3527206 --> 00:54:39,684.4914559 is the outro, where we talk about what we learned. 484 00:54:41,654.4914559 --> 00:54:42,644.4914559 I like your song. 485 00:54:43,414.4914559 --> 00:54:47,954.4914559 Yeah, I like the podcast we just listened to. 486 00:54:49,734.4914559 --> 00:54:50,724.4914559 All right, everybody. 487 00:54:50,794.4914559 --> 00:54:52,174.4914559 We are in the outro. 488 00:54:52,324.4914559 --> 00:54:55,74.4914559 I hope you guys enjoyed that interview that I did with John. 489 00:54:55,84.4914559 --> 00:54:57,144.4914559 It was the very first interview I did for this show. 490 00:54:57,514.4904559 --> 00:55:04,644.4914559 And welcome to the little outro section where we're going to talk about maybe one of my favorite points the guest made. 491 00:55:05,64.4914559 --> 00:55:06,394.4904559 Um, a weekly topic. 492 00:55:06,394.4914559 --> 00:55:07,504.4914559 It could be anything. 493 00:55:07,524.4914559 --> 00:55:08,684.4914559 Maybe something going on. 494 00:55:08,829.4914559 --> 00:55:22,159.4914559 in my life that week, or something I want to talk about, um, I am working through The Artist's Way, so I'm going to do a little Artist's Way check in, and then I'm going to end the episode with a quote, or piece of advice, or a resource. 495 00:55:22,169.4914559 --> 00:55:24,379.4914559 So that's how the outros are going to be formatted. 496 00:55:24,389.4914559 --> 00:55:33,419.4914559 And for today's outro, which it won't be every time, but John is here with me, and he also was the special first guest. 497 00:55:33,669.4914559 --> 00:55:34,79.4914559 Oi. 498 00:55:34,689.4914559 --> 00:55:35,159.4914559 Here I am. 499 00:55:35,219.4914559 --> 00:55:35,869.4914559 It's me. 500 00:55:36,359.4904559 --> 00:55:42,69.4914559 That being said, that was recorded, like, two months ago, so it's probably more fresh on your minds than it is on mine. 501 00:55:43,19.4914559 --> 00:55:45,149.4914559 I apologize for how I sounded it. 502 00:55:45,669.4914559 --> 00:55:46,439.4914559 Don't apologize. 503 00:55:46,439.4914559 --> 00:55:47,429.4904559 I think you sounded great. 504 00:55:48,269.4914559 --> 00:55:58,129.4914559 But anyway, one of my favorite points that you made was you have to get one bad drawing out of the way in a new sketchbook so it stops being sacred. 505 00:55:58,379.4914559 --> 00:56:11,259.4914559 And that was one of my favorite takeaways from the episode, because I think I'm someone who, As a kid collected clean notebooks and was like so afraid to ruin them You know, my notes were so immaculate, that was my favorite takeaway from your interview. 506 00:56:11,919.4914559 --> 00:56:14,849.4914559 I think that that feeling always stays. 507 00:56:14,849.4914559 --> 00:56:18,799.4914559 Like, you buy something new, and you don't think, I'm going to ruin this. 508 00:56:18,979.4914559 --> 00:56:23,239.4924559 But there has to be a point where you're like, I'm going to ruin this. 509 00:56:23,319.4914559 --> 00:56:27,249.4914559 Because, like, it's meant to be, it's not meant to be a clean notebook. 510 00:56:27,299.4914559 --> 00:56:28,529.4914559 It's meant to be used. 511 00:56:28,559.4914559 --> 00:56:28,889.4914559 Yeah. 512 00:56:28,939.4914559 --> 00:56:29,219.4914559 Yeah. 513 00:56:29,589.4914559 --> 00:56:32,329.4914559 So yeah, so that's something I took away from your episode. 514 00:56:32,329.4914559 --> 00:56:33,849.4914559 But all right, let's jump into it. 515 00:56:33,859.4914559 --> 00:56:35,559.4914559 This week is my birthday. 516 00:56:35,789.4914559 --> 00:56:38,489.4904559 This comes out on Tuesday, March 4th. 517 00:56:39,264.4914559 --> 00:56:42,154.4914559 What? I was singing happy birthday in Spanish. 518 00:56:42,264.4914559 --> 00:56:43,54.4914559 Oh, thank you. 519 00:56:43,464.4914559 --> 00:56:52,874.4914559 but yeah, so this episode will come out on Tuesday, March 4th, and my birthday is March 6th, and I'm turning 29 years old, so it's the last year of my 20s. 520 00:56:53,434.4914559 --> 00:56:59,584.4914559 And, what I wanted to talk about in relation to my birthday is my birthday year resolutions. 521 00:56:59,824.4914559 --> 00:57:05,284.4914559 Because most people have heard of a New Year's resolution, and those are big, hot topics in January. 522 00:57:05,324.4904559 --> 00:57:09,4.4914559 But I never set New Year's resolutions, but I set birthday resolutions. 523 00:57:09,4.4914559 --> 00:57:13,364.4914559 So it's basically the same thing, just on my birthday instead of in the New Year. 524 00:57:14,14.4914559 --> 00:57:27,104.4914559 And having a birthday on March 6th is I think the perfect time of year for this sort of thing, because it's a full two months after everybody's talked about New Year's resolutions and. 525 00:57:27,104.4914559 --> 00:57:31,967.8247892 It's kind of died down and most people have, honestly, statistically speaking, have quit their Year's resolution. 526 00:57:32,167.8247892 --> 00:57:33,987.8247892 So it's a perfect time for me to jump in. 527 00:57:33,997.8237892 --> 00:57:42,177.8247892 And I always try to do something that's both fun, sometimes, slash self help y or like self improvement y. 528 00:57:42,197.8247892 --> 00:57:48,347.8247892 So, in previous years, to give you guys an example, I started karate or. 529 00:57:48,972.8257892 --> 00:57:51,672.8257892 One year I started therapy or one year. 530 00:57:51,672.8257892 --> 00:57:53,632.8257892 I got my scuba diving certification. 531 00:57:53,892.8257892 --> 00:58:04,82.8257892 So it's always kind of something fun and This year my birthday resolution is one this show Which I'm super excited to start as a new endeavor. 532 00:58:04,92.8247892 --> 00:58:05,492.8257892 Maybe it'll be a career. 533 00:58:05,692.8247892 --> 00:58:39,470.6585345 Maybe it'll be a hobby I don't really know yet And Also, I ended up stopping therapy, too, around this time, because I had been in therapy for five years, and it was like a birthday gift to myself in a previous year, I guess about five years ago, and, or longer than that, I started in 2019, so six years ago, and I ended up stopping just because I kind of felt like I was at a good point in my life, too, and I don't think I'm the kind of person that needs to be in therapy forever for the rest of her life. 534 00:58:39,530.6595345 --> 00:58:41,35.5595345 Not that there's anything wrong with that. 535 00:58:41,465.6595345 --> 00:58:43,575.6595345 Just being consistently is what it goes to therapy. 536 00:58:44,315.6595345 --> 00:58:45,175.6595345 Just want to highlight that. 537 00:58:45,235.6595345 --> 00:58:46,355.6595345 Yeah, no, absolutely. 538 00:58:46,355.6595345 --> 00:58:49,785.6595345 There's nothing wrong with people who go to therapy for the rest of their life. 539 00:58:49,805.6595345 --> 00:58:51,575.6595345 Yeah, no, absolutely not. 540 00:58:51,615.6595345 --> 00:58:53,985.6595345 Um, I think whatever works for you, works for you. 541 00:58:54,395.6595345 --> 00:58:59,315.6585345 Um, It was something I entered into not knowing how long I would stay in it. 542 00:58:59,335.6585345 --> 00:59:13,45.6595345 And then, I kind of had, when I started it, I had this like, sort of, intuitive, Voice inside where I knew it was time to start and it came to the time when I had this intuitive Voice in me saying it's time to end. 543 00:59:13,275.6585345 --> 00:59:30,65.6595345 You know what I mean? Yeah, I think a good therapist gives you the tools to Self regulate and help figure out your problems as well as like, you know, a big part of therapy is Someone recording and looking at your life from like a third party perspective. 544 00:59:30,205.6595345 --> 00:59:35,410.6595345 Yeah A great therapist makes you codependent and charges you the rest of your life. 545 00:59:38,870.6595345 --> 00:59:40,660.6595345 He's joking everybody. 546 00:59:40,720.6595345 --> 00:59:42,250.6595345 It's called a subscription service. 547 00:59:42,330.6585345 --> 00:59:53,810.6595345 That's like the Apple TV series like with Will Ferrell and Oh, oh yeah, where the therapist takes over, Paul Rudd takes Will Ferrell's, yeah, I can't remember what it's called, but yes. 548 00:59:53,960.6595345 --> 00:59:55,210.6595345 Yeah, that's what you're describing. 549 00:59:56,270.6595345 --> 01:00:00,940.6595345 Yeah, and I had a wonderful therapist and she really helped me through a lot of different life stages. 550 01:00:00,980.6595345 --> 01:00:08,660.6595345 I mean, I saw her from the time I was 23 or 24, something like that, till I guess 28. 551 01:00:08,660.6595345 --> 01:00:15,720.6595345 Just kind of wanted a, I thought I'd been in it for five years and I just kind of wanted a break, basically. 552 01:00:16,170.6595345 --> 01:00:18,460.6595345 so yeah, so that's what I am thinking about this week. 553 01:00:18,500.6595345 --> 01:00:22,520.6585345 What's going on with your week, John? Work, work, work, work, work. 554 01:00:22,530.6595345 --> 01:00:23,410.6595345 Uh, working. 555 01:00:23,410.6595345 --> 01:00:25,100.6605345 I have an improv class today. 556 01:00:25,720.6595345 --> 01:00:31,760.6595345 And, uh, oh, I guess figuring out your birthday surprises. 557 01:00:33,275.6595345 --> 01:00:35,245.6595345 You don't have to surprise me for my birthday. 558 01:00:35,245.6595345 --> 01:00:37,55.6595345 I just want to be taken to a nice dinner. 559 01:00:37,575.6595345 --> 01:00:40,495.6585345 She said, I want to know nothing about what's going on on my birthday. 560 01:00:40,735.6595345 --> 01:00:42,805.6595345 And you don't know about something that's going to happen. 561 01:00:43,985.6595345 --> 01:00:46,115.6585345 There's a word for it and it's surprise. 562 01:00:47,605.6585345 --> 01:00:52,445.6595345 Okay, but you're acting like I asked you to throw me a surprise party and I just want a nice dinner. 563 01:00:52,445.6595345 --> 01:00:53,305.6595345 That's all I want. 564 01:00:53,465.6595345 --> 01:00:54,665.6595345 Okay, well you'll get it. 565 01:00:55,265.6595345 --> 01:00:57,655.6595345 Okay, so yeah, I'm excited for Thursday. 566 01:00:57,685.6585345 --> 01:01:00,655.6595345 We're going to go out to a nice dinner without the kids. 567 01:01:01,210.6595345 --> 01:01:02,920.6595345 Dog kids, not human kids. 568 01:01:02,950.6595345 --> 01:01:03,770.6595345 We don't have those. 569 01:01:03,810.6595345 --> 01:01:05,140.6595345 Yeah, the dogs. 570 01:01:05,960.6595345 --> 01:01:07,340.6595345 The dogs are staying in. 571 01:01:07,340.6595345 --> 01:01:10,310.6595345 Thank God, because that honestly makes it a lot easier to find a restaurant. 572 01:01:10,460.6595345 --> 01:01:14,630.6585345 Because I was just like looking up vegetarian dog friendly restaurants. 573 01:01:15,110.6585345 --> 01:01:17,510.6595345 With, preferably indoor to be honest. 574 01:01:17,550.6585345 --> 01:01:19,770.6585345 Because it is cold in New York City. 575 01:01:19,780.6585345 --> 01:01:20,680.6585345 It's getting warm. 576 01:01:21,100.6585345 --> 01:01:22,340.6585345 But it's still cold. 577 01:01:22,340.6585345 --> 01:01:22,710.6585345 Yeah. 578 01:01:22,710.6585345 --> 01:01:23,420.6585345 Absolutely. 579 01:01:23,930.6585345 --> 01:01:29,340.6585345 All right, I want to talk about the Artist's Way, because you have done the Artist's Way and you didn't like it. 580 01:01:29,370.6585345 --> 01:01:31,250.6575345 I did not not like it. 581 01:01:31,780.6585345 --> 01:01:43,10.6585345 I felt, it's kind of like, you know, when you're a child and you like reading your science textbook at first, because you're like, oh, wow, I'm learning stuff. 582 01:01:43,240.6585345 --> 01:01:45,890.6585345 And then I think the Artist's Way, it's really helpful. 583 01:01:45,890.6585345 --> 01:01:51,625.6585345 And it's really I'm not somebody who likes assigning themselves homework. 584 01:01:51,795.6585345 --> 01:02:02,35.6585345 Like, I wasn't completing my own projects, I was Doing the homework of The Artist's Way, because The Artist's Way is about habit building, and it's also very, uh, religious. 585 01:02:02,45.6585345 --> 01:02:09,865.6575345 It's very, it's pseudo religious, but it's like built off of the 12 step program, and so it's a That was a turn off for you. 586 01:02:10,25.6585345 --> 01:02:11,735.6595345 It's a 12 to 15 week thing. 587 01:02:11,915.6575345 --> 01:02:23,585.6575345 No, no, I mean, it helped me at the time, but like, there is kind of like a cult esque thing to it, where it's just like, you're doing, you're performing rituals every day. 588 01:02:24,875.6585345 --> 01:02:27,385.6585345 Yeah, uh, to bring out the muse. 589 01:02:27,685.6585345 --> 01:02:39,128.9928678 Yeah, that might even be a quote from the book Yeah, um, I want to give a shout out to your sister Annie who bought me The Artist's Way after I gave my copies away. 590 01:02:39,138.9908678 --> 01:02:39,738.9928678 I think I've had two copies. 591 01:02:39,739.0928678 --> 01:02:40,838.9908678 Well, she didn't know that. 592 01:02:40,848.9918678 --> 01:02:41,868.9918678 Yeah She didn't know that. 593 01:02:41,868.9918678 --> 01:02:48,522.4252011 So, okay, so backstory John had a copy of The Artist's Way and I ended up going through some career drama. 594 01:02:48,532.4252011 --> 01:02:57,822.4252011 Long story short I lost my job in December and I was looking for some structure, and Yeah, just something to get the creative juices flowing. 595 01:02:57,842.4252011 --> 01:03:00,932.4252011 And so I was getting ready to start The Artist's Way. 596 01:03:00,972.4252011 --> 01:03:05,312.4252011 And then we had friends who were visiting, shout out Julien and Imbol, we love you guys. 597 01:03:05,542.4252011 --> 01:03:09,162.4252011 But we had friends who were visiting who were like, oh, we're thinking about starting The Artist's Way. 598 01:03:09,432.4242011 --> 01:03:12,132.4252011 And John gave his copy to them. 599 01:03:12,182.4242011 --> 01:03:17,232.4252011 But I hadn't expressed that I was gonna steal your copy and use it, and you were just being a good friend. 600 01:03:17,232.4252011 --> 01:03:21,442.4252011 I was like, oh damn it, now I have to buy it, and you know, I don't have a job, so I wanted to save money. 601 01:03:21,472.4242011 --> 01:03:23,292.4252011 And then a couple weeks later. 602 01:03:23,477.4252011 --> 01:03:27,47.4252011 Just by happenstance, I don't think Annie knew that had happened. 603 01:03:27,47.4252011 --> 01:03:28,307.4252011 I don't know how she would know. 604 01:03:28,567.4252011 --> 01:03:32,277.4252011 And she reached out to me and she was like, Oh, this is like a super cool book. 605 01:03:32,277.4252011 --> 01:03:34,397.4252011 Like, do you have it? If not, I want to gift it to you. 606 01:03:34,397.4252011 --> 01:03:36,37.4242011 And I was like, Oh, it's fate. 607 01:03:36,57.4252011 --> 01:03:37,997.4252011 Thank you, Annie, for coming to the rescue. 608 01:03:38,57.4252011 --> 01:03:49,57.4242011 Whenever I gave my copy away, Again, this book, the first page has a contract in it, where it's like John Goodheart dated like 2014, 2000, no, probably 2017. 609 01:03:49,647.4242011 --> 01:04:03,677.4242011 But, I feel, I gave the book away because also, once you complete it, I don't think The Artist's Way is really a book you Go back to, I guess, making it similar to like Rehab or like the 12 step program, maybe you do go back to it. 610 01:04:03,867.4242011 --> 01:04:09,497.4232011 But me, if I were to reread it, it'd be like, oh, I loved Sunday school so much, I'm gonna go back to Sunday school. 611 01:04:10,107.4242011 --> 01:04:16,947.4232011 You know? Well, you could go back, cause they do, weekly exercises and they give you 10 exercises, but you don't have to complete all 10. 612 01:04:17,247.4232011 --> 01:04:19,897.4232011 So you could always, go back and do the ones you didn't do. 613 01:04:19,937.4232011 --> 01:04:22,627.4232011 I'm gonna say I do remember, like, taking myself on artist dates. 614 01:04:23,687.4232011 --> 01:04:25,827.4232011 That was, uh, one of the big tenets. 615 01:04:25,907.4232011 --> 01:04:26,387.4232011 Yeah. 616 01:04:26,797.4232011 --> 01:04:34,257.4232011 Yeah, so I just wanted to bring that up because I think it would be a fun thing for week to week for me to give an update on how it's going. 617 01:04:34,367.4232011 --> 01:04:59,992.4232011 So far I've only read the intro, I haven't even started week one yet, and so the intro is just basically introducing the book and What morning pages are which if you don't know what morning pages are they're just like three pages you write them like one of the first things you do when you wake up and it's supposed to Kind of clear your mind and then artist states where you set aside like two hours a week, right? Sorry, there's a dog playing with a squeaky toy in the background. 618 01:05:00,502.4232011 --> 01:05:03,682.4232011 but yeah, you set aside two hours a week, and you take yourself on an artist date. 619 01:05:03,682.4232011 --> 01:05:05,652.4232011 And that can look like a lot of different things. 620 01:05:05,692.4232011 --> 01:05:07,922.4232011 I think it's open sort of to interpretation. 621 01:05:07,982.4232011 --> 01:05:12,422.4232011 I didn't watch these blogs, but I think in 2019 or maybe 2020. 622 01:05:12,847.4232011 --> 01:05:16,467.4232011 The current, Grammy, winning musician, Dochi. 623 01:05:16,817.4232011 --> 01:05:19,697.4232011 Yeah, Annie had mentioned that to me when she sent me the book. 624 01:05:19,737.4232011 --> 01:05:21,297.4232011 Dochi has She, vlogged it, yeah. 625 01:05:21,297.4232011 --> 01:05:22,777.4232011 Yeah, she has, weekly check ins. 626 01:05:22,907.4232011 --> 01:05:25,877.4222011 Yeah, so I guess this is my form of a vlog of it. 627 01:05:26,147.4232011 --> 01:05:37,147.4232011 So I'll check in after each episode and let you guys know how it's going, what I did for my artist date, any of the assignments, because they give you, like, reflective prompts of, stuff you can do each week. 628 01:05:37,657.4232011 --> 01:05:38,727.4232011 So yeah, I'm so excited. 629 01:05:38,797.4232011 --> 01:05:40,757.4232011 thank you Annie for the book. 630 01:05:40,947.4232011 --> 01:05:44,527.4232011 Shout out to my sister in law. 631 01:05:44,957.4232011 --> 01:05:46,647.4232011 Out of law, because we're not married, but. 632 01:05:46,827.4232011 --> 01:05:48,977.4232011 Yeah, shout out to my little sister. 633 01:05:48,997.4232011 --> 01:05:56,127.4232011 she texted me yesterday telling me that she heard something about Enneagrams and then one of them described me well. 634 01:05:56,657.4232011 --> 01:05:59,787.4232011 Then I had to look up what an Enneagram is. 635 01:05:59,897.4232011 --> 01:06:00,937.4232011 It's a personality test. 636 01:06:01,437.4232011 --> 01:06:02,367.4232011 I used to know mine. 637 01:06:02,377.4232011 --> 01:06:04,237.4222011 I think it's like three or eight. 638 01:06:05,282.4232011 --> 01:06:05,992.4232011 Or nine. 639 01:06:06,212.4232011 --> 01:06:06,982.4232011 I can't remember. 640 01:06:06,982.4232011 --> 01:06:08,902.4232011 It's like a low number and a high number. 641 01:06:09,552.4232011 --> 01:06:12,172.4232011 I feel like it's hard to put people into a subcategory. 642 01:06:12,402.4232011 --> 01:06:17,822.4232011 That's why I think isn't the Myers What's the one that has E N T P and stuff like that? That's Myers Briggs, yeah. 643 01:06:18,232.4222011 --> 01:06:21,622.4222011 I like that one because each letter is from a different category. 644 01:06:21,802.4232011 --> 01:06:22,32.4232011 Yeah. 645 01:06:22,32.4232011 --> 01:06:26,982.4232011 That's why it's like hard to be like, I'm part seven, part three, part eight. 646 01:06:27,32.4232011 --> 01:06:27,522.4232011 Yeah. 647 01:06:27,582.4232011 --> 01:06:28,972.4232011 And, that's what I was by the way. 648 01:06:29,342.4232011 --> 01:06:31,702.4232011 Yeah, dude, this dog is going ham on this newspaper toy. 649 01:06:32,452.4232011 --> 01:06:33,302.4232011 I'm sorry about that. 650 01:06:33,322.4232011 --> 01:06:46,52.4222011 Yeah, for context, I dog sit on Rover because I'm unemployed and so we have a very cute border collie with us today who is playing with a squeegee toy in the back, so that's what you hear. 651 01:06:46,442.4232011 --> 01:06:54,132.4232011 but anyway, so yeah, I'm super excited to start The Artist's Way and I'll be back next week with my week one check in and I'll let you guys know how it goes. 652 01:06:55,357.4232011 --> 01:07:09,577.4232011 Alright, so then I want to end each episode giving people a takeaway, whether that's a book, or maybe a quote they can think about, or some sort of resource, or something that you guys can think about or look into. 653 01:07:09,837.4232011 --> 01:07:12,657.4222011 And so this week, I want to talk about Substack. 654 01:07:13,77.4232011 --> 01:07:15,357.4232011 And this isn't like, a plug. 655 01:07:15,692.4232011 --> 01:07:28,582.4232011 For anything or like I don't have a subsec I mean I set one up for this podcast, but we'll get to that at the end But I wanted to talk about it because I was a longtime lurker and I'm about to start participating. 656 01:07:28,702.4222011 --> 01:07:44,442.4222011 It's one of the most positive social media, I don't even know if it's considered social media, but one of the most positive social media Channels that I have experienced, because you get to follow creators and it really prioritizes people, who are creating really cool newsletters. 657 01:07:44,462.4222011 --> 01:08:01,392.4222011 And, I didn't know this, but Substack has a timeline, like it kind of looks like Twitter, where you can just send out, not tweets, but like short, firm, little things that appear on a timeline, essentially a tweet, you know? Um, but in addition to your newsletter, and I didn't even know that, because I would just get people's newsletter. 658 01:08:01,732.4222011 --> 01:08:04,542.4222011 And then I downloaded the app and I was like, oh shit, this is so cool. 659 01:08:04,542.4222011 --> 01:08:06,732.4222011 And everybody's so positive and creative. 660 01:08:07,92.4222011 --> 01:08:09,502.4222011 And so I just wanted to give that as a resource. 661 01:08:09,532.4222011 --> 01:08:13,432.4222011 If people are looking for a social media app, that isn't super toxic. 662 01:08:13,622.4212011 --> 01:08:32,922.4212011 I feel like Substack brings the best out of a lot of social medias, like it's kind of like early MySpace, how they had a bulletin board where you would just press on a link and then it would have all this stuff, but also kind of like Tumblr and the timeline like Twitter, like at the base form of it, it was created as a newsletter platform. 663 01:08:33,192.4212011 --> 01:08:38,452.4212011 So it's kind of like live journal or, or older blogging. 664 01:08:39,402.4212011 --> 01:08:45,732.4212011 Things because like I feel like we've kind of gotten a lot more disconnected on the internet where it just like, and a lot more polarized. 665 01:08:45,762.4212011 --> 01:08:57,462.4212011 Well, the internet used to be like whenever I made my first website and like I was in like fifth grade, so it's probably like 2004, but my god, you're so old. 666 01:08:57,462.4212011 --> 01:08:59,382.4212011 But the website is like. 667 01:09:00,37.4212011 --> 01:09:06,837.4212011 You would make a website about just yourself, and then post stuff that you wanted to talk about, and hope strangers found it on the internet. 668 01:09:07,37.4212011 --> 01:09:10,837.4212011 And now, everything's, Instagram's hyper curated. 669 01:09:11,97.4212011 --> 01:09:13,927.4202011 Twitter is, is whatever Twitter is. 670 01:09:14,237.4202011 --> 01:09:21,417.4212011 But also was becoming more curated, while Substack and email newsletters have always been about like, Oh, I want to peek into this person's head. 671 01:09:21,857.4212011 --> 01:09:29,677.4212011 It's, honestly, I miss Tumblr, Like when Tumblr was at its peak, Because I would put blogs on Tumblr, where it's like, Low barrier to entry. 672 01:09:29,877.4202011 --> 01:09:32,897.4212011 Because no one's really just personal blogging anymore Without trying to sell something. 673 01:09:32,947.4212011 --> 01:09:34,907.4212011 So yeah, I wanted to give Substack a shout out. 674 01:09:34,947.4212011 --> 01:09:41,397.4212011 Obviously it's not sponsored, but I didn't know it had a news or like a Twitter feed esque part of it. 675 01:09:41,427.4212011 --> 01:09:44,337.4202011 I just thought it was like a place where you could, look at newsletters. 676 01:09:44,337.4202011 --> 01:09:51,867.4202011 And you also like the newsletter people can set up chats and you can like chat along with the people who are like following the same newsletter. 677 01:09:51,887.4212011 --> 01:09:53,527.4212011 So it's a really cool community. 678 01:09:53,527.4212011 --> 01:09:55,947.4212011 And I actually only thought it was just newsletters. 679 01:09:55,987.4212011 --> 01:09:59,507.4212011 And when I downloaded the app, I was like, Oh, this is a really positive place. 680 01:09:59,517.4212011 --> 01:10:01,267.4202011 So I wanted to give that a shout out because. 681 01:10:01,367.5212011 --> 01:10:05,17.5212011 I didn't know about it, so if anyone else didn't know, now you know. 682 01:10:06,537.5212011 --> 01:10:09,307.5212011 Alright, so that is our episode for today, everybody. 683 01:10:09,317.5212011 --> 01:10:13,277.5212011 Here are three ways that you can support the show totally for free. 684 01:10:13,607.5212011 --> 01:10:15,557.5212011 One, you can follow the show on Instagram. 685 01:10:15,557.5212011 --> 01:10:19,687.5212011 It's at version1podcast and that's the number one, not O N E. 686 01:10:20,67.5212011 --> 01:10:24,637.5212011 And you can subscribe to our sub stack, which I haven't posted anything yet as of recording this. 687 01:10:24,957.5212011 --> 01:10:35,497.5212011 But, hopefully that'll be a place where I can get to know the listeners and send out cool Things and yeah, I'm excited to get involved in that community. 688 01:10:35,507.5212011 --> 01:10:37,767.5212011 It's version one podcast. 689 01:10:37,787.5212011 --> 01:10:38,577.5212011 substack. 690 01:10:38,587.5212011 --> 01:10:39,7.5212011 com. 691 01:10:39,487.5212011 --> 01:10:41,882.4212011 And I'm going to put links for everything in the show notes. 692 01:10:42,482.5212011 --> 01:10:51,632.5202011 And if you do want to support the show, which it's totally optional, I think I set it up where you could contribute 5 a month on Substack. 693 01:10:51,682.5212011 --> 01:10:53,902.5212011 so yeah, super low cost to entry. 694 01:10:53,912.5212011 --> 01:10:57,412.5212011 It's the cost of a cup of coffee if you do want to support the show. 695 01:10:57,912.5212011 --> 01:10:59,12.5212011 But that's totally optional. 696 01:10:59,342.5212011 --> 01:11:02,812.5212011 And you can totally subscribe for free if that's not in your budget right now. 697 01:11:03,122.5212011 --> 01:11:05,952.5212011 A second way to support the show is you can leave a review. 698 01:11:05,982.5212011 --> 01:11:10,132.5202011 A kind review goes a really long way and helps other people discover the show. 699 01:11:10,502.5202011 --> 01:11:15,542.5202011 And the third way you can support is you can subscribe and you can send this episode to a friend. 700 01:11:15,832.5212011 --> 01:11:22,642.5212011 Because I would love to grow this and get to know interesting, cool, creative people like yourself who's listening. 701 01:11:23,267.5212011 --> 01:11:27,127.5212011 And, yeah, and new episodes are coming out every Tuesday. 702 01:11:27,137.5212011 --> 01:11:30,727.5212011 And I'm also on Instagram at Waves Colville. 703 01:11:30,727.6212011 --> 01:11:32,697.5202011 So you can follow me there. 704 01:11:33,687.5212011 --> 01:11:39,657.5212011 Alright, John, do you wanna, do you have any last words? Um, follow me at my name is Gilly on Instagram. 705 01:11:39,887.5202011 --> 01:11:56,467.5202011 But also please support the podcast and, uh, Hopefully I'll be invited back as a guest and we can have another in depth conversation on the record But I hope you enjoyed this week's episode and uh, thank you for listening All right.

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