Are mushrooms safe during pregnancy and breastfeeding?

What began as a simple question—“Are mushrooms safe during pregnancy?”—turned into groundbreaking research. In this episode of Wendy Goes Deep, Wendy sits down with Mikaela de la Myco to discuss Mothers of the Mushroom, a citizen-led research initiative exploring the ingestion of psilocybin mushrooms during pregnancy, postpartum, and breastfeeding.

The conversation dives into the historical and cultural role of mushrooms in motherhood, the importance of Indigenous wisdom, and the gaps in Western medical research. Mikaela shares her personal journey, the challenges of stigma, and the collaborative efforts to provide evidence-based research. They also discuss the benefits of psilocybin, the importance of self-determination in maternal health, and the potential for policy reform.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about psychedelics, motherhood, and the power of community-driven research.

Key Highlights & Timestamps 00:01 - 00:37 | Destigmatizing the Conversation

• The ingestion of psilocybin mushrooms in motherhood is not new globally but remains controversial in Western societies.
• The goal is to de-stigmatize the topic and provide evidence-based research for those who are curious.

01:23 - 01:58 | Introducing Mikaela de la Myco & Mothers of the Mushroom

• Mikaela is a mother, citizen scientist, and community organizer based in San Diego.
• She has worked with entheogens for over a decade and launched Mothers of the Mushroom to address the lack of research on psilocybin and motherhood.

02:41 - 05:08 | Seeking Safety Data on Psilocybin in Pregnancy & Breastfeeding

• When Mikaela became pregnant in 2019, she searched for research on psilocybin’s safety profile and found very little.
• Indigenous traditions have long included psilocybin in maternal care, and she consulted an elder in Mexico who guided her through a ceremony while pregnant.

06:23 - 08:51 | Launching Citizen Science Research

• Without formal studies, Mikaela turned to community-led data collection.
• The project gathers firsthand experiences from mothers ingesting psilocybin mushrooms during pregnancy and postpartum.

12:02 - 17:59 | Bridging Indigenous Knowledge & Western Science

• Indigenous traditions have preserved plant medicine wisdom for generations.
• Can Western science and storytelling coexist to validate these experiences while respecting cultural origins?

21:04 - 26:50 | Challenges in Medical Acceptance

• Healthcare providers (midwives, therapists, doctors) are interested but hesitant to support psilocybin ingestion without clinical trials.
• Some professionals trust only Western medical studies, while others recognize the value of lived experiences.

35:17 - 40:59 | Safety, Stigma & the War on Drugs

• No major safety concerns have been reported in surveyed mothers.
• The biggest barrier is not psilocybin itself but societal stigma and misinformation shaped by the drug war.

50:03 - 58:43 | How Mothers Experience Psilocybin’s Benefits

• Mothers report reduced postpartum depression, emotional resilience, and greater connection with their children.
• The real issue is not psilocybin, but the lack of community support and fear of judgment.

1:06:46 - 1:12:57 | Potential Benefits: Inflammation, Neuroplasticity & Mitochondrial Health

• Psilocybin has been linked to reduced inflammation, increased neuroplasticity, and improved mitochondrial function.
• While promising, long-term studies are still needed.

1:18:35 - 1:31:19 | Observations in Child Development

• Some mothers report accelerated speech development and emotional intelligence in their children.
• Future research will explore long-term developmental effects.

1:33:57 - End | Call for Continued Research

Episode Transcript

(00:16):
.999So I'm just really inspired by the possibility that through this education, through these storytelling methods, we can just de stigmatize the conversation in the West.
We can provide evidence based research for people that are curious and continue the legacy of what, you know, people in the Americas have known for a really, really long time.

(00:38):
And not in a long time, but like right now, presently practicing, presently involved in.
.999And we're seeing some results that are very consistent with some of the benefits we've been seeing in microdosing for other parts of the population. 8 00:00:52,639.999 --> 00:00:56,129.999 So why skip moms? You know, we definitely deserve to benefit.
.4So like why skip us? Welcome to Wendy goes deep today. 10 00:01:10,95.4 --> 00:01:15,435.4 I am so excited because I have this amazing woman on today. 11 00:01:15,765.399 --> 00:01:24,455.399 Her name is Mikaela de la Myco and you may or may not be aware, but I have been working with her for about a year, a little over a year, somewhere around there. 12 00:01:24,935.4 --> 00:01:31,235.4 And we have been working on this project that she started called mothers of the mushroom. 13 00:01:31,245.4 --> 00:01:32,725.4 And we're going to go into. 14 00:01:33,355.4 --> 00:01:34,465.4 All kinds of things about it. 15 00:01:34,855.4 --> 00:01:45,575.4 And I could read off a beautiful bio about Mikaela, but the truth is that it'll be best if you hear from her about who she is and kind of why we're here. 16 00:01:45,825.4 --> 00:01:46,615.4 Welcome Mikaela. 17 00:01:47,168.4 --> 00:01:47,888.4 Hi, Wendy. 18 00:01:47,898.4 --> 00:01:49,628.4 Thank you so much for having me today. 19 00:01:49,658.4 --> 00:01:51,38.4 Um, hello listeners. 20 00:01:51,68.4 --> 00:01:52,748.4 My name is Mikaela de la Myco. 21 00:01:52,768.4 --> 00:01:56,808.4 I'm a mother, community organizer, citizen science researcher. 22 00:01:57,138.4 --> 00:02:05,783.4 I'm based here in Kumeyaay territory, San Diego, California, um, and have been walking my path With Entheogens for many, many years. 23 00:02:05,843.4 --> 00:02:18,823.4 Um, I first came in contact with MDMA at the tender age of 13 and, um, just kind of found my way through, you know, LSD and psilocybin at 18. 24 00:02:18,853.4 --> 00:02:22,123.4 I'm 30 now, and so, um, it's been, yeah. 25 00:02:22,903.4 --> 00:02:35,343.4 little over 10 years of relationship and, um, there was a, there was a crossroads, um, at a certain point in my journey where I became pregnant and this was back in 2019. 26 00:02:35,823.399 --> 00:02:47,913.4 I looked, you know, far and wide to get an understanding for psilocybin safety profile, um, psilocybin containing mushrooms as safety profile in pregnancy and breastfeeding and postpartum. 27 00:02:48,633.4 --> 00:02:54,483.4 I asked the question, are mushrooms safe? for pregnancy and there just wasn't much there. 28 00:02:54,483.4 --> 00:02:59,513.4 So I've really kind of found myself in a position to fill that gap here in our community. 29 00:02:59,513.4 --> 00:03:07,203.4 And I feel some other gaps as well, working with survivors of sexual assault here, um, maintaining safety for sensual beings. 30 00:03:07,233.4 --> 00:03:09,183.399 I'm a psychedelic herbalist. 31 00:03:09,193.4 --> 00:03:10,923.4 Um, I care deeply for the earth. 32 00:03:10,983.4 --> 00:03:15,863.4 Um, I love working with the medicine of plants, psychedelic and otherwise. 33 00:03:16,183.4 --> 00:03:33,718.4 And, um, I'm really here to just, Continue the struggle to rematriate in theogens, which is to hand off roles, rights, responsibilities, and also respect to mothers, aunties, daughters, and maternal caretakers here in our community. 34 00:03:33,948.4 --> 00:03:35,498.3995 So thank you so much for having me. 35 00:03:35,498.3995 --> 00:03:36,258.399 It's always a pleasure. 36 00:03:36,258.4 --> 00:03:37,608.399 It's been a pleasure working with you. 37 00:03:38,78.4 --> 00:03:40,858.4 pretty closely for the last, um, almost a year and a half really. 38 00:03:40,858.4 --> 00:03:45,198.4 And, um, it's about time that we have this conversation. 39 00:03:45,208.4 --> 00:03:48,58.4 So thank you for, for being here and for making it happen. 40 00:03:48,735.4 --> 00:03:49,505.4 Yeah, I know. 41 00:03:49,505.4 --> 00:03:51,275.4 I'm so excited to go in. 42 00:03:51,795.4 --> 00:03:58,925.4 So, um, to get started for the people who do not know, because I know a lot of people know me from different places. 43 00:03:59,365.4 --> 00:04:05,235.4 I think it would help if we started with like how this project even came about. 44 00:04:05,655.4 --> 00:04:12,338.399 What was the spark that got it going and why we're basically still here today? For real. 45 00:04:12,368.4 --> 00:04:17,228.399 So, as I mentioned, um, back in 2019, there wasn't much. 46 00:04:17,258.4 --> 00:04:21,538.399 And so I consulted with an elder who I'd known through community. 47 00:04:21,738.4 --> 00:04:23,708.4 And she's from Jalisco, Mexico. 48 00:04:23,848.4 --> 00:04:28,648.4 You can read a lot of this introduction in the mothersofthemushroom.com/research 49 00:04:28,668.4 --> 00:04:29,288.4 section. 50 00:04:29,728.4 --> 00:04:32,88.4 Um, cause the story means so much to me. 51 00:04:32,98.4 --> 00:04:53,498.399 I think it is really important to understand that, um, we don't, we wouldn't have any of this, this information if it wasn't for careful stewardship over many generations of people who kept this, you know, close, close knit information in kitchens and pueblos and homes and communities, um, of people in Mexico and all over the world. 52 00:04:53,828.4 --> 00:05:06,918.4 Um, and so I was very grateful to just have access to someone who'd been in the kitchen Embedded in a community where psilocybin containing mushrooms were deeply woven and continue to be woven. 53 00:05:07,268.4 --> 00:05:20,718.4 And so, um, with her not only permission, but guidance, um, I was welcomed into ceremony, visibly pregnant, um, given mushroom and given some information and continued on my way. 54 00:05:20,758.4 --> 00:05:27,103.4 And, um, through just my personal testimony, sharing out the things that I learned, caretaking this conversation. 55 00:05:27,133.4 --> 00:05:39,903.399 Um, was a growing level of interest in both myself and other people within community about how to, you know, navigate the space safely and with some evidence based knowledge. 56 00:05:39,903.399 --> 00:05:41,383.3995 And there really has been very little. 57 00:05:41,383.3995 --> 00:05:52,253.4 And so, um, years of, you know, creating content on the matter, doing presentations, I wrote a 52 page ebook on the subject covering different plant medicines. 58 00:05:52,273.4 --> 00:05:56,188.4 Um, their relationship to gestation and breastfeeding. 59 00:05:56,628.4 --> 00:06:05,538.399 I was reached out to by James Fadiman, who's writing, you know, a book on microdosing, um, health, healing, and performance. 60 00:06:05,598.4 --> 00:06:12,708.4 And I was consulted for a motherhood section or a section on pregnancy, breastfeeding and postpartum. 61 00:06:12,718.4 --> 00:06:23,588.4 So the vision of conducting citizen based scientific research to produce some evidence based information really started to Blossom and flourish from there. 62 00:06:23,788.4 --> 00:06:26,628.4 And, um, the survey started going out. 63 00:06:27,38.4 --> 00:06:30,18.4 We handed it off to anyone that we could find. 64 00:06:30,28.4 --> 00:06:33,918.4 We started, you know, reaching out into different communities to get submissions. 65 00:06:33,918.4 --> 00:06:39,798.4 And so, um, I ran into Wendy along the way, and we worked with other researchers in the UK as well. 66 00:06:40,148.4 --> 00:06:42,208.4 Um, psychedelic doulas and such. 67 00:06:42,208.4 --> 00:06:50,168.4 So it's like, It's been a collaborative effort with a lot of cool people, Jordan Gruber for sure, Microdosing Institute and many others to make this possible. 68 00:06:50,168.4 --> 00:06:56,148.4 So Wendy has been our data analyst, web developer extraordinaire. 69 00:06:56,458.4 --> 00:07:08,288.4 Um, and so we handed off that research, uh, 411, almost 12, uh, surveys to James and Jordan so that they could use some of the information. 70 00:07:08,288.4 --> 00:07:10,298.4 And we were like, well, we're just sitting on this. 71 00:07:10,778.4 --> 00:07:11,968.4 We have to do something. 72 00:07:11,993.4 --> 00:07:21,673.4 Like, how are we going to keep this from the public when the public really needs this information? So, um, we developed a website so that people can access the information that we, that we learned. 73 00:07:21,693.4 --> 00:07:27,993.4 So very, very grateful for all the decisions that came together to make a project like this possible. 74 00:07:28,544.4 --> 00:07:46,879.4 I remember when I met you, well, e meet you through Clubhouse and you were on one of the rooms and you had said, Hey, does anyone know how to build websites? I've got this, Uh, all these survey results and my mind was like, I want to know what's in the data. 75 00:07:48,439.4 --> 00:07:50,549.4 I was like, okay, I'll help you build a website. 76 00:07:50,559.4 --> 00:08:19,329.399 Does that mean I get to look at the data? And, um, I would, that's kind of what spurred me initially because they're, In the last several years, there has not been any research that you can find on mothers and pregnant women, except for your name will come up, you know, sometimes, um, through searches and, you know, hearing your story, I was so interested because you've been so brave about sharing it. 77 00:08:19,349.4 --> 00:08:27,799.4 And I've heard of like moms on mushrooms or, you know, these different, you know, things through social media about the moms and taking mushrooms. 78 00:08:28,744.4 --> 00:08:35,514.4 And I personally had been dipping my toe into microdosing because of my clients. 79 00:08:35,844.4 --> 00:08:38,554.4 That's actually how I got introduced to the world of psychedelics. 80 00:08:38,604.4 --> 00:08:40,414.4 So I came from a very different background. 81 00:08:40,484.4 --> 00:08:48,474.4 Oh, Catholic upbringing, you know, very, very typical of many people in the United States. 82 00:08:49,204.4 --> 00:08:50,234.4 We were science based. 83 00:08:50,774.4 --> 00:08:51,754.4 My mom was an engineer. 84 00:08:51,794.4 --> 00:08:55,704.4 So like, if it didn't come from science, we didn't. 85 00:08:56,239.4 --> 00:08:57,819.4 You know, look at it basically. 86 00:08:58,99.4 --> 00:08:59,959.4 Um, but then we also had that religious thing. 87 00:08:59,959.4 --> 00:09:05,369.4 So like all the shame and you always had to walk, you know, the right path and be a good person. 88 00:09:05,759.4 --> 00:09:11,529.3995 And then with the war on drugs, you know, drugs were bad and I stayed away from them. 89 00:09:11,529.3995 --> 00:09:17,229.399 And I, I did do some things in my twenties and it was very much club oriented. 90 00:09:17,229.399 --> 00:09:20,869.399 It was not healing or anything of that nature. 91 00:09:21,354.4 --> 00:09:23,664.4 And I'm also very thankful for it. 92 00:09:23,664.4 --> 00:09:32,204.4 So I'm not saying everyone should go out there and do it, but I am very thankful for it because it was my experience with MDMA. 93 00:09:32,709.4 --> 00:09:42,999.4 In my twenties that I'm using words now, I didn't understand it at the time, but now I can look back and kind of see what was happening. 94 00:09:43,29.399 --> 00:09:47,829.399 Actually, from like a scientific lens, even, um, at the time. 95 00:09:48,379.4 --> 00:09:50,739.399 I, it like, if. 96 00:09:51,279.4 --> 00:09:56,389.4 People who are unfamiliar with MDMA and people who are familiar will know what I'm talking about. 97 00:09:56,889.4 --> 00:09:58,369.4 You feel very much in your heart. 98 00:09:58,379.4 --> 00:10:03,69.4 You feel very kind of in love with the world and love with everything around you. 99 00:10:03,819.4 --> 00:10:10,474.3 And in that moment, I, I realized I, I don't think I'd ever really felt that way. 100 00:10:11,164.4 --> 00:10:12,424.4 At peace that way. 101 00:10:12,864.4 --> 00:10:17,344.4 And looking back is when I can realize that my guard was down. 102 00:10:17,424.4 --> 00:10:21,4.399 It was the first time I think of my entire life where my guard was down. 103 00:10:21,644.399 --> 00:10:25,304.399 And then I had another pivotal moment with Adderall. 104 00:10:25,764.399 --> 00:10:30,44.399 Um, the very first time I took Adderall, you know, cause I have ADHD. 105 00:10:30,484.399 --> 00:10:36,524.4 Um, and that's usually the first line of defense when you have, um, ADHD is to give you medication. 106 00:10:36,984.4 --> 00:10:44,994.4 And there was the, when I took it, And I was like, Whoa, there are there's space between my thoughts. 107 00:10:45,74.4 --> 00:10:46,574.4 That's the only way I can describe it. 108 00:10:46,864.4 --> 00:10:49,24.4 It was space between my thoughts. 109 00:10:49,64.4 --> 00:10:57,134.399 And once again, I know I have been living my entire life with that just rapid like brain that just would never stop. 110 00:10:57,639.4 --> 00:10:57,989.4 Stop. 111 00:10:58,29.4 --> 00:11:04,419.4 I would either get myself completely worked up and then crash crap, you know, full speed crash, full speed crash. 112 00:11:04,439.4 --> 00:11:05,739.4 That was my entire life. 113 00:11:05,749.4 --> 00:11:08,9.4 Like I, I did not know anything. 114 00:11:08,239.399 --> 00:11:12,309.4 I didn't even know that this is actually how people could think. 115 00:11:12,609.399 --> 00:11:18,219.4 And I'm so thankful for them because they opened a whole world of possibilities to me. 116 00:11:18,699.4 --> 00:11:25,69.399 And then when I had a client ask me about microdosing, one of my orgasm coaching clients, She asked me about microdosing and she's a nurse. 117 00:11:25,334.4 --> 00:11:31,74.4 And I asked her like, well, can't you, you know, just go talk to someone, you know, at the hospital, like that knows stuff. 118 00:11:31,454.4 --> 00:11:33,104.4 She's like, no, I can't see anything. 119 00:11:33,114.4 --> 00:11:37,394.399 I'll lose my job, but I know you're safe and I can talk to you. 120 00:11:37,774.4 --> 00:11:39,574.4 I was like, well, I don't really know. 121 00:11:39,644.4 --> 00:11:45,124.399 And she was like, I guarantee you'll be back in a couple of weeks with the answers for me because we haven't been working long enough. 122 00:11:45,124.4 --> 00:11:47,184.4 She knew that I wouldn't stop. 123 00:11:47,184.4 --> 00:11:55,64.4 And basically I haven't stopped since she asked me that question sometime in 2019 and I've been researching ever since. 124 00:11:56,454.4 --> 00:12:03,629.4 Um, and so when you came up on that clubhouse room, I was like, Oh my God, I want to, I want to learn. 125 00:12:03,629.5 --> 00:12:10,909.4 I want to, learn everything that's in here because it has been through the personal experiences, my personal experiences. 126 00:12:10,919.4 --> 00:12:14,759.4 Like you can, I can explain what MDMA is and what it does in the body. 127 00:12:14,759.4 --> 00:12:21,729.4 I can explain why Adderall does in the body, but that felt experience of what, what that has meant for my life. 128 00:12:22,164.4 --> 00:12:26,894.4 Because of those substances, um, we're, we're changing, we're life changing. 129 00:12:26,944.4 --> 00:12:30,234.4 And so that's what kind of led me into wanting. 130 00:12:30,274.399 --> 00:12:39,634.4 And then the more I researched for my clients and I became more, more comfortable with taking psychedelics for something other than being bad in a club. 131 00:12:40,54.399 --> 00:12:45,844.4 Um, my whole life changed and that's, that's what, that's what led me to here. 132 00:12:47,454.4 --> 00:13:36,142.4 Um, so now that we kind of get like an idea of how we got here, what's for you, like, what has been the main thing with this research that keeps you going? Um, I would say my primary motivation with the Mothers of the Mushroom Project is mostly because they're will have to be a multitude of approaches with how to fill the gap in this knowledge base and running conventional testing for mothers eating mushrooms in pregnancy, breastfeeding, and postpartum is so far into the future and we'll have to control for certain variables, which will look very unlike typical use. 133 00:13:36,152.4 --> 00:13:49,287.4 So maybe You know, running it through conventional, um, methods will look like having to use synthetic psilocin or synthetic psilocybin, or, you know, if it's postpartum research study, then the moms won't be able to breastfeed. 134 00:13:49,287.4 --> 00:13:56,927.399 And like, there's going to be some things down the road that, um, when approached through these methods, we're going to lose. 135 00:13:56,927.499 --> 00:14:13,977.4 And so, as you mentioned, just These real lived experiences, the inspiration of James Fadiman's early microdosing research really was like this collection of, of real world, you know, anecdotal, but anecdotal on mass. 136 00:14:13,997.4 --> 00:14:18,277.399 And what does anecdotal on mass do is it gives you a dataset. 137 00:14:18,297.4 --> 00:14:24,417.4 If you conduct the S the, the questions properly and like ask the right questions, you can really like. 138 00:14:24,672.4 --> 00:14:29,542.4 tease out some good information from the accumulated body of these stories. 139 00:14:29,542.4 --> 00:14:39,312.4 And so what keeps me going is obviously the desire to stake a place for citizen science and psychedelic research. 140 00:14:39,312.4 --> 00:14:45,72.4 I think that's very meaningful and it's going to be a workaround for some of these more niche like avenues in research. 141 00:14:45,332.4 --> 00:15:01,662.4 And also like the forming of a relationship between indigenous knowledge and generational learning and the, the ways of knowing that comes from our ancestral scientific methods. 142 00:15:02,122.4 --> 00:15:24,432.4 Um, To be, you know, put to the scrutiny of like the Western medical system, like, can we still exist in our knowing and share our knowing and the way that we know it through storytelling and through generational sharing in a way that can be acknowledged and still seen as valuable through like the Western lens. 143 00:15:24,432.4 --> 00:15:25,322.4 Like, I just really. 144 00:15:25,997.4 --> 00:15:28,67.4 I really feel there's room for us to be here. 145 00:15:28,87.4 --> 00:15:33,127.4 And, um, that us and science can work collaboratively to honor one another. 146 00:15:33,427.4 --> 00:15:35,177.4 And so that really keeps me going as well. 147 00:15:35,177.4 --> 00:15:41,97.399 It really keeps me going to know that, you know, there's communities of people living right now. 148 00:15:41,97.399 --> 00:16:10,842.4 And like, The Sierra Mountain ranges of Mexico and the Mazatec community and the Wixárika community that don't need the permission of Western science because they have the backing of thousands of years of knowledge and and just know that the there's clinics in Colombia right now that are utilizing psilocybin for postpartum depression care in clinics right now protected under like indigenous use protection. 149 00:16:10,852.4 --> 00:16:16,552.4 So it's like, you know, I'm here because this isn't new. 150 00:16:16,562.4 --> 00:16:17,662.4 Mother's eating mushrooms. 151 00:16:17,682.399 --> 00:16:18,752.4 Isn't new. 152 00:16:18,992.399 --> 00:16:29,172.4 It's not novel and it's not that controversial in different parts of the world, but it is very much here in the United States and in the UK and in Western Europe. 153 00:16:29,172.4 --> 00:16:40,322.399 So I'm just really inspired by the possibility that through this education, through these storytelling methods, we can just de stigmatize the conversation in the West. 154 00:16:40,572.4 --> 00:16:50,952.4 We can provide evidence based research for people that are curious and continue the legacy of what, you know, people in the Americas have known for a really, really long time. 155 00:16:50,952.4 --> 00:16:53,182.4 And not in a long time, but like right now. 156 00:16:53,472.4 --> 00:16:55,942.4 Presently practicing presently involved in. 157 00:16:56,272.4 --> 00:16:57,772.4 So, um, that's huge. 158 00:16:57,782.4 --> 00:16:58,822.4 That's huge for us. 159 00:16:58,852.4 --> 00:17:07,892.399 And we're seeing some results that are very consistent with some of the benefits we've been seeing in microdosing for other parts of the population. 160 00:17:07,902.399 --> 00:17:11,392.399 So why skip moms? You know, we definitely deserve to benefit. 161 00:17:11,802.4 --> 00:17:18,92.4 So like why skip us? Um, I've seen just incredible things happen when mothers feel well. 162 00:17:18,352.4 --> 00:17:30,602.4 And so I'm also very driven by and inspired by the mothers that this Uh, has already touched and will touch because If moms are happy, the world is happy. 163 00:17:32,219.4 --> 00:17:32,969.4 Yes. 164 00:17:33,749.4 --> 00:17:34,279.4 Yes. 165 00:17:34,999.399 --> 00:17:41,229.4 Um, there was a few things that you were talking about that, that brought up things for me. 166 00:17:41,669.4 --> 00:17:43,689.4 I, I know, you know, who Dr. 167 00:17:43,689.4 --> 00:17:56,422.4 Sandra, Is, and we had a discussion not that long ago about this, and she, she can say it so much more eloquently than I can, but Love dr. 168 00:17:56,902.4 --> 00:17:57,484.4 Piece of I know. 169 00:17:57,604.4 --> 00:18:04,614.399 So, for those who don't know, uh, Dr Sandra is in ethics, and she's like, there's no other way to do this study. 170 00:18:04,874.4 --> 00:18:08,848.9 There's no other way to do this work, but to do it through citizen science, because to. 171 00:18:08,848.9 --> 00:18:12,959.3 The least the way this is done. 172 00:18:13,769.4 --> 00:18:21,199.4 All of the mothers who have ingested the psilocybin mushrooms, um, have done so of their own accord. 173 00:18:21,609.4 --> 00:18:36,959.4 They weren't convinced to do it or trying to do it as a, as a part of science, even maybe they weren't doing it for their own scientific research, but it was, you know, it was not put on them to, to be enrolled in this study. 174 00:18:37,389.4 --> 00:18:40,319.4 And from an ethical standpoint. 175 00:18:40,774.4 --> 00:18:49,504.4 That's the best way because even those of us who are now in the psychedelic community, there are a lot of different medicines, not just psiolocybin mushrooms. 176 00:18:49,504.4 --> 00:18:54,4.4 There's a whole bunch of different ones and they're not all meant for every single person. 177 00:18:54,464.4 --> 00:18:56,984.399 Um, at least that's been what I can see. 178 00:18:57,344.399 --> 00:19:07,624.4 And I would assume that like in, even in indigenous practices, there's probably times when different medicines are, are suggested, just like. 179 00:19:07,984.4 --> 00:19:26,334.4 You know, when you have a cold versus when you've got a, a booboo on your arm, you're going to, you're going to grab for something that's different when you're, when the things that are wrong with you are not, you know, a band when a bandaid is not going to fix it, you need to look for another tool. 180 00:19:28,84.4 --> 00:19:50,444.4 And then one of the other things that was kind of coming up to my mind when you were talking was that it's strange, like the whole thing about Citi Citizen science not being relevant is kind of mind bog to me because unless you're looking specifically at research where it's looking at the chemical reactions or, or quantum physics and physics stuff, you know, whatever. 181 00:19:50,684.4 --> 00:19:57,604.4 When you're looking at the molecules basically, or, or something like that, anytime you're dealing with someone, you are getting. 182 00:19:58,239.4 --> 00:20:06,969.399 Their response, so even all the SSRI medicine, maybe it was done in a lab with controls, you know, to maybe. 183 00:20:07,419.4 --> 00:20:19,29.4 Figure out the safety component of it, but at the end of the day, whether or not that medicine actually works has everything to do with the stories that people tell when they say, yes, I feel less depressed. 184 00:20:19,149.4 --> 00:20:19,429.4 Yes. 185 00:20:19,429.4 --> 00:20:20,509.399 I feel less anxious. 186 00:20:20,639.4 --> 00:20:23,689.4 No, I still feel more anxious, or I feel same or more. 187 00:20:23,969.399 --> 00:20:29,859.4 That is actually citizen science just with, done by a medical lab coat., 188 00:20:31,149.4 --> 00:20:40,289.4 uh, you know, this whole double blind placebo controlled trial, you know, thing drives me absolutely nuts because it's just one way. 189 00:20:40,599.4 --> 00:20:45,149.399 Like, there's just, there's not just 1 way to do anything, anything in this world. 190 00:20:46,99.399 --> 00:20:47,439.4 There's multiple ways to do it. 191 00:20:47,749.4 --> 00:20:49,359.4 And it's really beneficial. 192 00:20:49,389.4 --> 00:20:52,309.4 It can help isolate individual components. 193 00:20:52,849.4 --> 00:20:56,49.4 But as humans, we are not isolated. 194 00:20:56,449.4 --> 00:20:57,569.4 More than we are. 195 00:20:57,659.4 --> 00:20:59,109.4 I mean, we are more than we should be. 196 00:20:59,749.4 --> 00:21:07,59.399 But like, our heart is not disconnected from our digestive system, which is not disconnected from our lungs, which is not disconnected from our brain. 197 00:21:07,269.399 --> 00:21:08,869.399 Like, it's all connected. 198 00:21:08,899.4 --> 00:21:12,89.4 So you can't, you can't isolate someone. 199 00:21:12,469.4 --> 00:21:13,719.399 It can't even be double blind. 200 00:21:14,654.4 --> 00:21:25,734.4 Placebo controlled trial, even in a lab, because there's too many other factors that are coming in with that person, how much sleep they got, what's their digestive like, how much water, you know, like all of the, all of the things. 201 00:21:25,734.4 --> 00:21:31,54.4 And so I just, I find the whole conversation about it just. 202 00:21:32,169.4 --> 00:21:32,549.4 I don't know. 203 00:21:33,19.4 --> 00:21:34,219.4 Maybe it's just the way my brain works. 204 00:21:34,219.4 --> 00:21:38,959.4 I have a tendency to see the nitty gritty and the big picture simultaneously. 205 00:21:38,959.4 --> 00:21:41,99.399 So I understand the benefits. 206 00:21:41,309.4 --> 00:21:45,379.399 I just don't understand the, the absolute importance of it. 207 00:21:46,637.4 --> 00:22:30,542.4 And, and I mean, but that is, that is to also just say that, um, there's many ways to arrive at the information and who, who are the only voices that are worth listening to when it comes to information as sensitive and delicate as motherhood? I mean, like, is the obstetrician, um, you know, going to be more experienced than the lay midwife? You know, is it a matter of credential? Is it a matter of experience? Is it a matter of years? Is it a matter of how many births a person attended? It's like, what is your experience base? I feel like it's important to recognize that, um, there are many systems in which a person can get their education. 208 00:22:30,562.399 --> 00:22:37,132.4 And what I've just seen time and time again, is like this constant handing, um, away or taking away. 209 00:22:37,507.4 --> 00:22:51,537.4 From indigenous based scientific knowings and methodologies in, um, preference to, you know, the present scientific, um, structure and paradigm. 210 00:22:52,187.4 --> 00:23:14,382.399 And to say that one way is the most foolproof method would be foolhardy in that to disregard the kind of pollutants within that system, like who is funding what research and for what, and who is behind certain studies and like what outcomes they're interested in seeing. 211 00:23:14,382.4 --> 00:23:20,72.4 And so, you know, Citizen science gives us all fair play, and I'm really here for that. 212 00:23:20,82.4 --> 00:23:23,702.4 I'm really here for, there is not big money interest in this. 213 00:23:23,702.4 --> 00:23:35,532.4 There is people, humans, solving problems the way that, in a way that can follow a scientific methodology and a methodology that is way more personable. 214 00:23:37,67.4 --> 00:23:38,527.4 to solutions we're looking for. 215 00:23:38,547.4 --> 00:23:54,337.4 So, you know, to say that one way of knowing and one way of arriving at these conclusions is like cleaner, more professional, more valid, right? It's to also ignore like the contaminants within that system, which there are many as well. 216 00:23:54,617.399 --> 00:24:20,297.4 So, um, you know, I've had kind of a keen sense around, especially in the birth space and midwifery and womb care around the history and legacy of Shifting hands of power where, you know, birthing and the care of women and Children was primarily with community based midwives for the known history of mankind. 217 00:24:20,557.4 --> 00:24:31,537.4 And only until, you know, the early 20th century, um, did things start to shift over into the medical, um, the burgeoning medical establishment like we know today. 218 00:24:32,692.4 --> 00:25:15,47.4 Without, you know, and it couldn't have happened that way without like a concerted effort, you know, that's traceable through newspaper articles and magazine articles about how traditional midwives were dirty and unsafe and that like women should move into hospital and like, you know, birth, you know, should be managed by an obstetrician and, know, really validating itself as, you know, The authority on birth, but that was done through very dubious and devious means and honestly, a lot of malicious intent to like, move credibility out of the hands of people that had a lot more experience in birth women and children. 219 00:25:15,367.4 --> 00:25:34,712.399 Um, and that led to a lot of problems like, you know, You know, we talk about thalidomide, um, in our research paper, we talk about, I mean, I've done a lot of presentations about the use of scopolamine and, um, twilight sleep for labor and, you know, obstetrics is like no obstetric science. 220 00:25:35,47.4 --> 00:25:42,427.4 Was no stranger to foul play, making mistakes and harming women and children in, in pregnancy, breastfeeding and postpartum. 221 00:25:42,777.4 --> 00:26:01,202.4 So, you know, to, to look at citizen science, to look at people with experience, bringing these medicines in, to look at people with a background in midwifery and womb care and say, you are not qualified is insulting, to say the least. 222 00:26:01,232.4 --> 00:26:12,822.399 So I'm just praying to be able to cross the, threshold of pointing fingers and saying, well, you're dirty or you're not doing it like well enough or something like that. 223 00:26:12,822.401 --> 00:26:13,592.399 And I love Dr. 224 00:26:13,592.399 --> 00:26:19,192.4 Sandra for acknowledging it wouldn't happen any other way at this point. 225 00:26:19,242.4 --> 00:26:57,187.4 But I hope that with what we're showing, we have some proof of concept that an amazing scientist listening to this right now, you know, can say, Hey, I know about a study going on at Kaiser, for example, or a bigger hospital looking at, you know, mothers who were interested in ketamine therapy or psilocybin for postpartum depression, because I know those hospitals are interested in solutions, I know those caretakers, those RNs, those therapists, those counselors, those midwives like are so curious and just deeply want to meet the needs of their clients. 226 00:26:57,437.4 --> 00:27:03,257.4 And I know some of them are going to prefer information from a white coat and some of them are going to be okay with citizen science. 227 00:27:03,257.4 --> 00:27:05,997.4 And it's really up to us to work together. 228 00:27:07,22.4 --> 00:27:08,352.4 Interdisciplinarily. 229 00:27:08,942.4 --> 00:27:17,952.4 I am not discriminating against like using this information to benefit the hospital system because that only means that more people are going to get support and help. 230 00:27:17,952.4 --> 00:27:30,382.4 So as long as they're willing to see us as decent and worthy, like, Let's talk to each other, you know, because there's things that we've learned here in the underground that they could probably deeply benefit from, truly. 231 00:27:30,452.4 --> 00:27:33,892.4 And they might have the funding that we need in order to get this information out. 232 00:27:33,892.4 --> 00:27:39,432.4 So, you know, I, I know double blind studies are not going to work for this. 233 00:27:39,452.4 --> 00:27:52,232.4 And I'm, I'm positive, though, That assessing the safety profile of psilocybin mushrooms for gestating bodies is probably not hard to accomplish and it already has been accomplished with the C. 234 00:27:52,612.4 --> 00:27:53,122.4 psilocin experiment. 235 00:27:53,122.4 --> 00:28:00,782.399 So I would love to talk about that, but we do have some data on what psilocybin does and psilocin does in pregnant rats. 236 00:28:00,942.399 --> 00:28:09,597.4 We've done that study before with all of the right stringent methodologies that science requires and still got outcomes that look positive. 237 00:28:09,597.4 --> 00:28:11,407.4 So, you know, I'm hopeful. 238 00:28:11,467.4 --> 00:28:15,947.399 I'm for sure hopeful that both systems will come to some conclusions that are meaningful for the public. 239 00:28:16,949.4 --> 00:28:17,199.4 Yeah. 240 00:28:17,269.399 --> 00:28:18,599.3995 I love that you brought up safety. 241 00:28:18,599.3995 --> 00:28:23,359.4 Cause that's, you know, coming from my, you know, my background was like, this is safe. 242 00:28:23,829.4 --> 00:28:44,84.4 And also I want to point out like, you know, going through the research, That you know so well as well, The, that was, you know, the stigma that we, that persists that drugs are bad and that psilocybin mushrooms are part of that group of being bad. 243 00:28:44,764.4 --> 00:28:55,174.4 Everyone in the underground knows that of all of the different substances like psilocybin mushrooms are the safest, you know, basically they've got the safest profile. 244 00:28:55,584.4 --> 00:29:09,944.399 And one of the other things that I, I just have a hard time believing is that, I mean, we we've heard the stories of what happens when mothers do cocaine, when they're pregnant, we know what happens when mothers drink alcohol, which is legal. 245 00:29:10,354.399 --> 00:29:18,24.4 And you know, the, the implications of that, we, we, we learn when things are not working well. 246 00:29:18,24.5 --> 00:29:25,879.4 Like, If, if this was truly harmful, we would know, like, we would know it would just be out there. 247 00:29:26,337.4 --> 00:29:26,789.4 By Yeah. 248 00:29:26,857.4 --> 00:29:28,657.399 would have heard some stories. 249 00:29:28,937.4 --> 00:29:29,347.4 Yeah. 250 00:29:29,959.4 --> 00:29:42,789.399 anytime there's even something, even remotely a little bit scandalous, like the pilot who had done a micro dose, like a few days before, or like a couple of days before he flew or something. 251 00:29:43,189.399 --> 00:29:48,179.399 And the whole, I mean, the way that story got picked up, right. 252 00:29:48,659.399 --> 00:30:01,279.4 Um, You mean to tell me if there was a mother and child where psilocybin mushrooms was involved that we wouldn't know? Like, I just, I cannot, I cannot even fathom that. 253 00:30:01,489.4 --> 00:30:03,189.4 And it's not even just here in the United States. 254 00:30:03,519.399 --> 00:30:09,629.4 I scoured, like putting the research paper together, I scoured for as much information as I could. 255 00:30:09,659.4 --> 00:30:12,849.4 I went into, uh, thank goodness for Google translate. 256 00:30:12,869.4 --> 00:30:18,19.399 I use Google translate to figure out some of this stuff, but I looked into over in Europe. 257 00:30:18,19.399 --> 00:30:18,409.4 I looked. 258 00:30:18,734.4 --> 00:30:22,634.4 All kinds of places, and there isn't, there isn't. 259 00:30:22,754.4 --> 00:30:34,734.399 And every time psilocybin mushrooms actually is indicated as someone going into a hospital, because there are some like hospital hospitalizations and of that and sorts of that kind of thing. 260 00:30:35,174.399 --> 00:30:43,699.4625 Um, it's always, If it's just psilocybin mushrooms, then it's because people are having a difficult time experiencing the trip. 261 00:30:43,729.4625 --> 00:30:44,859.4625 So it's, it's in there. 262 00:30:45,369.4625 --> 00:30:48,369.4625 It's the mind experience of, of what is happening. 263 00:30:48,749.4625 --> 00:31:01,619.4625 And all from what I remember going through this one research, all but one out of hundreds of people who went to the hospital cause they were freaking over their trip, so to speak. 264 00:31:01,989.4625 --> 00:31:07,239.4625 But one had lasting effects and the lasting effects I think we're only up to six months. 265 00:31:07,289.4625 --> 00:31:19,869.4625 And of the other reports where there were some more complications, there was always other substances involved, um, and, and based off of the effects, it was really the other substances. 266 00:31:20,169.4625 --> 00:31:27,989.4615 So this, this, I, I, I, I want to be on here and hopefully people are listening who may be a little bit scared of it. 267 00:31:28,209.4625 --> 00:31:32,589.4615 Like, do your research, talk to people because they're, they're not. 268 00:31:32,999.4625 --> 00:31:34,899.4625 They're not the boogeyman that I grew up. 269 00:31:34,949.4625 --> 00:31:41,959.4625 I, I, I have these memories being a kid and just thinking like I would lose my mind if I took some of these things. 270 00:31:41,959.4625 --> 00:31:49,229.4615 And I was just utterly terrified of losing my mind because the mind is, that's another aspect of this too. 271 00:31:49,239.4615 --> 00:31:58,569.4625 Like the mind is so, um, become so important in our society that we've lost connection from our body and we only focus on the mind. 272 00:31:58,569.4625 --> 00:31:59,629.4625 And so I think. 273 00:32:00,249.4625 --> 00:32:11,319.4615 Anytime with our modern Western world, anytime something affects the mind, it's like, Oh, wait, wait, wait, without understanding that there is a connection with the body. 274 00:32:11,319.4625 --> 00:32:16,279.4625 Like, the way you come back from a mind that's out there is to come back into your body. 275 00:32:16,659.4625 --> 00:32:23,689.4625 And that's wisdom that has been known for for centuries that has been lost through the medical community. 276 00:32:25,42.4 --> 00:32:37,32.4 I would say for safety profile conversation you mentioned, you know, in the underground people know that psilocybin is among the safest, um, classic psychedelics that we work with. 277 00:32:37,402.399 --> 00:33:03,622.4 Um, I would say science also knows that there's been LD50s, uh, testing done on psilocybin and a number of different, you know, naturally occurring, um, entheogenic medicines and, you know, comparing those and putting them up against very, as you mentioned, um, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, things are very readily available at your local corner store. 278 00:33:03,972.4 --> 00:33:05,602.4 Um, that. 279 00:33:05,902.4 --> 00:33:07,692.4 They just stack differently. 280 00:33:07,772.4 --> 00:33:26,972.4 And what I will say is that the two primary medicines that some of these communities work with, you know, mescaline containing cactus and psilocybin mushrooms, like milligram per milligram, um, Are safest in the LD50. 281 00:33:26,982.4 --> 00:33:40,372.4 If death is a toxic endpoint, mescaline and psilocybin are way up there next to caffeine, next to aspirin, next to morphine, which are regularly used and accessible to gestating bodies. 282 00:33:40,382.4 --> 00:33:57,102.4 So it's just really neat to know that, um, know, safe use practices are safe because the substances that we're utilizing in these in these communities are relatively hospitable in the human body. 283 00:33:57,162.4 --> 00:34:00,912.4 And science is like acknowledging that right now, which is really incredible. 284 00:34:00,912.4 --> 00:34:04,282.4 And we don't, I don't, I don't think we have an LD50 on ayahuasca. 285 00:34:04,282.4 --> 00:34:12,82.4 I don't think we have an, I'm sure we have an LD50 on cannabis, but like, you know, these, these substances can be well metabolized, which is amazing. 286 00:34:12,372.4 --> 00:34:14,352.4 And that's not to say that they don't cross. 287 00:34:14,432.4 --> 00:34:22,272.4 the placental barrier into the baby if a person is pregnant, but that's where, you know, safe use practices from the awalitas come in. 288 00:34:22,282.4 --> 00:34:37,437.399 Like, you know, this is how much, you know, person per person is very different, but like dosing practices change when you're in pregnancy, dosing practices change when you're in birth, dosing practices change when you're in postpartum, the same way that pharmaceuticals do. 289 00:34:37,447.4 --> 00:34:43,697.3995 So it's like, we just can treat these as also substances that only the dose makes the poison. 290 00:34:43,697.3995 --> 00:34:50,977.4 Like let's just be conscientious about their impact at some certain points in the gestational experiences for best um, optimized benefit. 291 00:34:51,437.4 --> 00:35:04,127.399 And what you mentioned about, you know, if the scientific community or the psychedelic community were to ever hear of a fatality, for example, with like a mother and a child by ingesting psilocybin mushroom or something like that, we would have heard about it by now. 292 00:35:04,127.4 --> 00:35:08,267.4 I mean, I like to be careful when saying something like that, because there's so many stories we don't know. 293 00:35:08,277.4 --> 00:35:10,207.4 There's so many communities we haven't touched. 294 00:35:10,507.4 --> 00:35:13,407.4 Like there's so many anecdotal pieces that. 295 00:35:14,252.4 --> 00:35:18,12.4 I've personally heard that, you know, are concerning. 296 00:35:18,92.4 --> 00:35:19,572.4 There is a dose allowance. 297 00:35:19,572.4 --> 00:35:28,292.399 There is like a physiological and also mental psycho emotional response to some of these can be completely destabilizing. 298 00:35:28,582.4 --> 00:35:40,192.4 So it is important for careful carefulness, stewardship, and conscientiousness to be applied, especially with the delicate nature of birth and pregnancy and, um, and. 299 00:35:40,967.4 --> 00:36:00,167.3 Postpartum and breastfeeding and what I will say for safety, if anyone is like a mother or soon to be mother, or, you know, has a friend who's like, just generally interested in some safety profile conversation around ingesting psilocybin and in that experiences, like what we do know is that. 300 00:36:00,437.4 --> 00:36:14,657.4 about the rate of miscarriage, for example, in early pregnancy, is that up to the 11th week, we have a very high likelihood of miscarriage, just not controlling for any variables at all, just generally in the population. 301 00:36:14,947.4 --> 00:36:24,17.4 And even going to a massage therapist, for example, participating in acupuncture, going into a sauna or jacuzzi before the 11th week has its risk factors. 302 00:36:24,367.4 --> 00:36:25,777.4 Um, it can increase. 303 00:36:26,37.4 --> 00:36:30,927.4 you know, the possibility or chance for the body to do what it does naturally, which is release sometimes. 304 00:36:31,237.4 --> 00:36:48,187.4 And so, um, if psilocybin is ingested before the 11th week, it's, you know, it could be, uh, reasonable to imagine or to postulate that like psilocybin was the cause of the miscarriage, but it's hard to know those things. 305 00:36:48,187.4 --> 00:36:57,42.4 And so generally for some people, They choose not to ingest before the 11th week just to maintain that safety. 306 00:36:57,72.4 --> 00:37:04,562.4 And if you were to go to a massage therapist, they might turn you down before the 11th week for fear of getting like sued or held responsible or liable for that. 307 00:37:04,792.4 --> 00:37:16,942.4 And as a practitioner, when I'm serving mothers or in community or in community within my own body before the 11th week, there is always an extra step and precaution taken when consulting with those people. 308 00:37:16,942.4 --> 00:37:23,122.4 And And educating them about the risk of miscarriage, you know, generally before the 11th week. 309 00:37:23,122.4 --> 00:37:46,427.3995 So I just think, just like having basic knowledge about birth and having basic knowledge about psilocybin and some traditional practices can at least begin building some guidelines and some like evidence based safety protocols if someone is pregnant, breastfeeding, postpartum, how they might bring this in, in a really informed way. 310 00:37:46,427.3995 --> 00:37:58,277.4 So that's just one thing to just keep in mind for safety is like, I'm not saying every single person who ever ate psilocybin mushrooms, you know, like within the 11th week. 311 00:37:58,962.4 --> 00:38:06,42.4 span of time, like increase their risk, but it's just really important to just know that going in that that's always a factor. 312 00:38:06,402.4 --> 00:38:17,192.4 And, um, we just won't know all the stories of mothers, but of the women and the mothers that, the birthing people that we interviewed and surveyed, we're not seeing fatality, which is amazing. 313 00:38:17,202.399 --> 00:38:27,512.4 It's good to say that it's good to know that we can say that, you know, ingesting psilocybin while pregnant did not increase the risk of infant mortality. 314 00:38:27,612.4 --> 00:38:28,932.4 That's a huge. 315 00:38:29,922.4 --> 00:38:31,892.4 I just want to sit with that for a moment. 316 00:38:31,912.4 --> 00:38:36,312.399 Like that's really remarkable because it's something we just haven't had yet. 317 00:38:36,652.4 --> 00:38:40,932.4 But to your point, Wendy, about like the safety profile of mushrooms, it is unsurprising. 318 00:38:40,932.4 --> 00:38:45,352.4 And I think as a researcher, I would not have felt so inclined to take on this project. 319 00:38:45,352.4 --> 00:38:49,52.4 If I had any doubt in my mind, that psilocybin was not safe for most bodies. 320 00:38:49,372.4 --> 00:38:58,257.4 And psychologically, mentally, emotionally, yes, it can be extremely fragmenting at like really high doses and even at low doses too. 321 00:38:58,557.4 --> 00:39:10,327.4 But like functionally and in the body, I felt like if we were going to study anything, let's look at psilocybin because I, I feel that the research substantiates that psilocybin is quite safe. 322 00:39:10,617.4 --> 00:39:16,217.4 So, um, yeah, safety is so, that's the careful thing we've had to be with this project is. 323 00:39:16,937.4 --> 00:39:28,137.4 down the road, you know, we just want to be conscientious about, yeah, if that story does come out, you know, how do we respond, you know, and we will need to respond carefully. 324 00:39:28,457.4 --> 00:39:34,792.4 Um, because We at the end of the day want to serve mothers and families and not put people at risk. 325 00:39:35,62.4 --> 00:39:41,972.4 But what we are seeing, um, just from the data that we've collected is no mortalities so far. 326 00:39:42,332.4 --> 00:39:54,592.4 And so, you know, we only have 412 people really like documented at this time, but I would say those odds are at least decent at this point and hope and hope for more. 327 00:39:54,602.4 --> 00:40:31,147.4 So, um, you know, I just, just, love, just love the fact that I just love the fact that with carefulness any substance in the natural world can be made in relationship with, you know, and, um, the drugs are bad thing and the cocaine mom and like the crack mom and the meth and the pharmaceutical mom, like, you know, that same level of judgment. 328 00:40:31,147.4 --> 00:40:32,227.4 I just don't feel like. 329 00:40:33,67.4 --> 00:40:47,77.4 is generative, you know, I don't even want to like draw this weird comparison because psilocybin is considered safer on an LD 50 and say, Oh, well, I only microdose or I only have mushrooms. 330 00:40:47,87.4 --> 00:40:51,917.399 So that makes me a better mom than a mother who's like shooting up heroine when they're pregnant. 331 00:40:51,967.399 --> 00:41:06,182.4 I know that mom, you know, and it's just like, I want to be very conscientious about what propaganda and like the drug war did to our conception of the way that we look at ingesting substances. 332 00:41:06,532.4 --> 00:41:21,942.3 And in other parts of the world and with safety use practices, even things like coca leaf, for example, that is like, you know, highly regulated cocaine is highly regulated and stigmatized and also like criminalized. 333 00:41:22,222.4 --> 00:41:31,217.4 People would be amazed to know that in places where the relationship between people and coca leaf, um, is still intact. 334 00:41:31,567.4 --> 00:41:42,867.4 Um, the primary use and most used, um, scene for coca leaf is in the birth experience. 335 00:41:43,272.4 --> 00:41:53,872.399 is mothers in community with coca leaf lean on coca leaf to assist them in birth because it is the tallest mountain you will ever climb. 336 00:41:54,142.4 --> 00:42:05,122.3995 So it's just like, without sounding too woo or too like far into this, you know, legalize every drug ever space. 337 00:42:05,512.3995 --> 00:42:10,7.4 I very much am a person that believes that only the dose makes the poison. 338 00:42:10,317.4 --> 00:42:43,342.4 And it would be really nice to see harm reduction and benefit optimization as The future mode of talking about mine altering substances for mothers as opposed to strict prohibition and criminalization, because the mothers in the survey that we've seen their motivations, their desires, to, you know, leading them to use or to have relationship with is not criminal in any sense of the word. 339 00:42:43,802.4 --> 00:42:56,387.4 So, you know, like if it's just to lift stigma for righteous use, it's also to lift stigma on our relationship to these substances generally, as As a larger community and a society. 340 00:42:57,954.4625 --> 00:42:58,244.4625 Yeah. 341 00:42:58,899.4625 --> 00:42:59,289.4625 There. 342 00:42:59,379.4625 --> 00:43:00,749.4625 Yes, absolutely. 343 00:43:00,749.4625 --> 00:43:01,979.4625 Yes to everything you said. 344 00:43:02,689.4625 --> 00:43:06,19.4625 And then there's something, you know, we were talking about the coca leaf. 345 00:43:06,579.4625 --> 00:43:14,259.4615 Humans have been, like, messing with the earth and co creating and mixing things together since the beginning of time. 346 00:43:14,279.4615 --> 00:43:15,249.4615 So there's. 347 00:43:15,919.4625 --> 00:43:43,44.4625 When science scientists do it, I see no, you know, like, I can see why, like, we've always been curious, like, oh, how much further can we take our knowledge and, um, it's just really sad that we've lost that reliance on the wisdom that has come before and kind of going back to the conversation earlier, I was reminded of the fact that pretty much All parenting is citizen science there. 348 00:43:43,444.4625 --> 00:44:00,954.4625 You know, I don't, I didn't learn about being a mom by going to adopt my doctor's office and learn nothing from being really nothing, like maybe a little bit, not to say nothing, but I learned about how to be a mom from hearing stories from other moms. 349 00:44:01,214.4625 --> 00:44:06,784.4625 Oh, what worked here? What worked here? And you figuring out, Oh, wait, I tried that, but that didn't work for my kid. 350 00:44:07,14.4625 --> 00:44:07,424.4625 I tried that. 351 00:44:07,424.4625 --> 00:44:08,584.4625 Oh, that one worked for my kid. 352 00:44:08,924.4615 --> 00:44:09,514.4625 And we're. 353 00:44:09,914.4625 --> 00:44:12,814.4625 Being a mother is completely citizen science. 354 00:44:13,114.4625 --> 00:44:41,834.4625 Like there's, you're always just pulling on observations from other people and bringing it in to what you do, whether it's from, you know, picking a preschool or deciding what park to go to, you know, like I, everyone's always relying on other moms, Hey, what'd you think about that? Hey, what, you know, how was that experience for you? And it's from that wisdom that we go, Oh, no, stay away from that. 355 00:44:41,904.4625 --> 00:44:42,524.4625 Or no, no, no. 356 00:44:42,524.4625 --> 00:44:43,294.4625 Try to do that. 357 00:44:43,304.4625 --> 00:44:47,954.4625 And that, that is at the heart of this research. 358 00:44:47,994.4625 --> 00:44:54,924.4625 And I will say, you know, where I am now with it versus where I was when I started. 359 00:44:54,994.4615 --> 00:44:56,304.4625 I was just curious. 360 00:44:56,304.4625 --> 00:45:01,114.4625 Like I was that scientist, like, Oh, let me see what, let me see what this mothers of the mushroom research is. 361 00:45:01,604.4625 --> 00:45:08,224.4625 And then as I, you know, I started out by just helping with the website, but then as I kept reading the stories over and over again. 362 00:45:09,134.4625 --> 00:45:14,34.4625 I mean, you know, you know, because I was like, I have to write a research paper. 363 00:45:14,204.4625 --> 00:45:29,174.4625 Like, I have to get this in a format that can be accepted, you know, hopefully start becoming more accepted by people who do rely on kind of that formal, like research. 364 00:45:29,734.4625 --> 00:45:59,494.4625 You know, style of learning and in doing so I became so, um, acquainted, you know, with the stories, like, I don't know their names, they're just numbers, you know, but their stories are very, very real and the, the consistency across the board and it's really hard to look at all the data and not, not be inspired by it. 365 00:46:00,274.4625 --> 00:46:11,589.4625 I mean, you can read an article here and there, but when you're reading 400 stories and consistently over and over again, you know, all the different things from, you know, getting off of. 366 00:46:12,369.4625 --> 00:46:25,344.4625 You know, alcohol, because they're pregnant and they want to, you know, not bring that in for their child, or they've been sober, but now that they have a small child and no support, they're They don't want to turn back to substances. 367 00:46:25,724.4625 --> 00:46:31,364.4625 Or their ADHD has, and brain fog is leading them completely. 368 00:46:31,634.4615 --> 00:46:39,614.4625 You know, at wit's end, they don't want to slip back into a deep depression, depression, the anxiety, like all of the, the re these are the reasons. 369 00:46:39,624.4625 --> 00:46:42,604.4625 And it was all because they want to be a better mom. 370 00:46:42,744.4625 --> 00:47:05,224.4625 It's not like, Oh, I want to go, go have, you know, have fun and party in Mexico, which I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but that's not the reason that people Are, are, are doing that, are willing to talk about this because the, the stories, these are real people that like talked about how the mushrooms basically changed their life. 371 00:47:05,254.4615 --> 00:47:11,554.4625 And, you know, after scouring through all of the, the data, you know, they're. 372 00:47:13,94.4625 --> 00:47:23,704.4625 There are some challenges, but compared to the struggles before it doesn't the challenges that the mother's experience don't even compare. 373 00:47:24,564.4625 --> 00:47:35,834.4625 And that has been my motivation going forward because these voices, I'm so thankful that they, they filled out the survey because they are going to be. 374 00:47:36,569.4625 --> 00:47:47,749.4625 You know, as we keep doing this work and as people keep learning about this, their voices are going to help set, um, hopefully and change, set a new example and change a paradigm. 375 00:47:48,179.4625 --> 00:47:52,619.4615 And I just, I'm like, I'm going to get all teary. 376 00:47:54,569.4625 --> 00:47:55,79.4625 Try not to. 377 00:47:55,967.4 --> 00:47:59,447.4 I mean, what is so meaningful is in the research paper. 378 00:47:59,887.4 --> 00:48:10,287.4 Um, and thank you, Wendy, for just extrapolating like all of that information from the raw data because reading through each story, you start to notice as a reader. 379 00:48:10,572.4 --> 00:48:14,232.4 And those stories are actually open and available on the website in the story section. 380 00:48:14,242.4 --> 00:48:21,92.4 There's specific areas for like, you know, breastfeeding stories specifically or postpartum stories or, or stories that mentioned the word trauma in it. 381 00:48:21,102.399 --> 00:48:31,232.4 So I hope that people take the time to explore the individual stories because each and every one of them has a particular flavor, a particular, perspective that I think is very meaningful. 382 00:48:31,522.4 --> 00:48:51,227.4 And, you know, looking at all of those stories en masse and then pulling those conclusions together, well, you know, what was the accumulated like, um, you know, benefit profile? Like, why were people ingesting? What were the general motivations? And what's so cool to see is like the general motivations matched the benefits. 383 00:48:51,237.4 --> 00:48:53,57.4 Like I was looking to reduce anxiety. 384 00:48:53,197.4 --> 00:48:53,477.4 Cool. 385 00:48:53,527.4 --> 00:48:54,957.4 Benefit was anxiety relief. 386 00:48:54,957.4 --> 00:49:00,177.4 Like it was like they, some of these people got what they were looking for, which is so meaningful. 387 00:49:00,197.399 --> 00:49:03,317.3995 Cause it's so hard to get what you're looking for as a mom. 388 00:49:03,317.3995 --> 00:49:16,437.4 You know what I mean? It's like hard to find that right combination of activities and practices and support systems and chemicals that like, just meet the needs of you, the individual person, the unique individual person. 389 00:49:16,437.4 --> 00:49:40,492.4 And what I will You know, just always like applaud you for is like in your writing and co creation of disseminating this information to the research paper was like, you acknowledge that like adaptability that psilocybin has, like truly as an adaptogen to just kind of read the fucking room and like, line up the factors internally, so that the benefit can, can emerge. 390 00:49:40,752.4 --> 00:49:59,142.4 And that's kind of what James and Jordan are like dealing with in their new microdosing book, which is it's not necessarily treating a vast variety of conditions, but instead is creating the conditions in the individual to like remediate some of these like experiences. 391 00:49:59,142.4 --> 00:49:59,462.4 So. 392 00:50:00,772.4 --> 00:50:16,352.399 What amazes me is that the individual stories are so moving and make me want to cry when I read them because like looking at the minutiae and looking at the small fine detail and the story is like, wow, that impacted the life of one person so entirely. 393 00:50:16,492.4 --> 00:50:20,732.4 It probably is changing the shape of the way that their family functions. 394 00:50:21,447.4 --> 00:50:42,667.4 For the foreseeable future, whether that's by, you know, ridding the, the family line of addiction or alcoholism, or, you know, working and teasing out like the postpartum depression sickness from their entire family, or, you know, like doing these fine detail changes in their life that like shift the paradigm of that individual family. 395 00:50:42,857.4 --> 00:50:47,707.4 And then you see that times 400 and you're like, damn, that's a lot of kids. 396 00:50:47,727.4 --> 00:50:49,107.4 That's a lot of worlds. 397 00:50:49,137.4 --> 00:51:08,267.4 That's a lot of schools, that's a lot of future adults right there that are now like being foundationally changed with just the presence and not controlling for every other factor, but just the presence as a co, as a, a correlation, not a causation. 398 00:51:08,412.4 --> 00:51:19,472.4 as part of a helpful system and not the silver bullet, but like still can be integrated into a household with a good deal of agency, like flexibility. 399 00:51:19,472.4 --> 00:51:36,917.4 And what I loved about the numbers and like, I love the numbers actually too, is that like, you know, over 70 percent of, uh, mothers are microdosing intuitively, which is just like telling us that like, we're not, we're not, We require flexibility in how we approach our issues and how we approach our needs. 400 00:51:37,197.4 --> 00:51:43,747.4 And psilocybin provides that, like at low doses, it functions in a certain way and higher doses, it functions in a certain way. 401 00:51:43,927.4 --> 00:51:52,437.4 We can choose seasonality as a part of our practice or, you know, daytime journeys or nighttime experiences, a multitude of different forms. 402 00:51:52,852.4 --> 00:51:56,382.4 Because it's pretty accessible, and it's pretty affordable. 403 00:51:56,632.4 --> 00:51:58,222.4 And that means so much. 404 00:51:58,232.4 --> 00:52:10,997.3 It means so much that this, you know, thing, this medicine, this tool, this technology, whatever it is, is being that people are now coming in contact with, can be contacted and engaged with. 405 00:52:12,57.4 --> 00:52:20,687.4 In a very self determined way at a way that doesn't break the bank in a way that integrates pretty seamlessly with people's lives. 406 00:52:20,687.4 --> 00:52:38,317.4 So I'm really here for the accessibility that psilocybin mushrooms provide and, um, you mentioned this, the, the challenges and what I will say is all this accumulated benefit right on the flip side has, you know, a shadow to it. 407 00:52:38,327.4 --> 00:52:45,827.4 And what I'm seeing in the shadow part of it, you know, is, it's actually pretty enlightening. 408 00:52:45,927.4 --> 00:52:48,297.4 It's pretty enlightening to know what the challenges were. 409 00:52:48,307.4 --> 00:52:57,107.4 And if you read or listen to the audio book, you'll know that list of challenges and the challenges did include the stigma itself. 410 00:52:57,237.4 --> 00:53:00,727.4 Like that's it's, it saddens me. 411 00:53:00,727.4 --> 00:53:21,242.4 And also is very reaffirming to know that the challenge most people faced What other people are going to think? Not necessarily what's coming of their doing it personally, but like how that's going to be received by their friends, their family, their jobs, their, you know, their exes. 412 00:53:21,272.4 --> 00:53:30,302.4 You know, will my use be used against me? And it really leads me to question things like what's happening in Oregon, or what's happening in Denver, what's happening with the decrim movements. 413 00:53:30,632.4 --> 00:54:00,547.4 Like, on, um, on regulation and legality, there going to be protections built for mothers, for example, or fathers too, or, you know, any family member, grandmothers included, that will protect if they ingest medicine? And, and will that impact their ability to have custody of their child? Are we treating it the same way, you know, as drug use in different Um, categories right scheduled, um, drugs. 414 00:54:00,837.4 --> 00:54:34,407.4 So that that's in my heart of hearts is like, what could research like this do for the conversation around, um, Like policy reform, because if we see the benefits and we see that a challenge is the stigma, then how is that stigma still getting reinforced through the law? And if we see the benefits and we're showing that this is not harmful, then why are we still criminalizing mothers for it? um, and even just socially, not even just with the police, but like. 415 00:54:34,862.4 --> 00:54:44,442.4 among family members and like, you know, using this as, as leverage to call someone not a good mother when really their motivation is to be a good mother. 416 00:54:44,682.4 --> 00:55:09,117.4 So, um, things to think about, you know, I, I know that this information is set to kind of benefit the moms themselves, like the partners, the care providers, but I don't want to sleep on, know, How this might potentially influence or hopefully influence, um, policy reform and legal changes because we deserve protection if the benefits are here and the risks are pretty low. 417 00:55:10,379.4625 --> 00:55:13,974.3625 Yeah, and actually it, one of the things that. 418 00:55:14,644.4625 --> 00:55:24,134.4625 I also saw in looking at the challenges is that even if you take the, so one of the ones that kind of came up sometimes was intensity. 419 00:55:25,204.4615 --> 00:55:36,944.4625 If you take what that actually means, like what the, why was that the challenge? We know even through the research and the clinical studies and all this stuff that with the right dosing, it is not intense. 420 00:55:37,724.4625 --> 00:55:49,849.4625 And so what that tells me is that they didn't have the support and the, Education that they needed and oftentimes when you look through their stories that very few people mark that they had support. 421 00:55:50,519.4625 --> 00:55:51,859.4625 I forget what the numbers are. 422 00:55:53,154.4625 --> 00:55:54,484.4625 It's extremely low. 423 00:55:54,874.4625 --> 00:55:58,984.4625 Like, like I'm kind of remembering them off the top of my head. 424 00:55:59,44.4625 --> 00:56:03,424.4625 And I would, I think only like maybe a dozen out of the 412. 425 00:56:04,164.4615 --> 00:56:09,324.4625 Um, I might be wrong, but we're talking really low. 426 00:56:09,394.4625 --> 00:56:14,114.4625 And even the ones who said that they got support, it was, I found what I could on Google. 427 00:56:14,554.4625 --> 00:56:17,134.4625 You know, that was the support that they had. 428 00:56:17,174.4625 --> 00:56:18,794.4625 It wasn't even like real support. 429 00:56:19,424.4625 --> 00:56:23,144.4625 Um, not to say that you can't find good information online. 430 00:56:23,574.4615 --> 00:56:24,704.4625 And when you. 431 00:56:25,54.4625 --> 00:56:30,464.4625 When you think about that, the reason the support wasn't there is because of the stigma around around it. 432 00:56:30,464.4625 --> 00:56:39,304.4615 Because if there was no stigma, if it was decriminalized, you know, we're not, you know, like, starting there, right? Like, let's start with decriminalization. 433 00:56:40,244.4625 --> 00:57:01,824.4625 So that this research can continue so that these mothers don't even have the few challenges that are reported like most all of the challenges would go away with with reducing stigma and decriminalization because then it would allow if it was decriminalized, then it would allow people to actually talk to their doctor. 434 00:57:01,824.4625 --> 00:57:17,854.4625 They won't lose their jobs if they, if, you know, my, my clients, my microdosing clients, the vast majority of them are therapists, nurses, lawyers and teachers that cannot talk about it with anybody. 435 00:57:18,64.4625 --> 00:57:19,874.4625 They cannot talk about it to their doctor. 436 00:57:19,874.4625 --> 00:57:21,334.4625 They don't talk about their family. 437 00:57:21,514.4615 --> 00:57:22,844.4625 They don't want to come out with colleagues. 438 00:57:23,114.4625 --> 00:57:24,774.4625 They cannot talk about it at all. 439 00:57:24,804.4615 --> 00:57:25,784.4615 And that is why they need. 440 00:57:25,904.4625 --> 00:57:28,774.4625 And luckily, I'm here to be able to give them the support. 441 00:57:28,774.4625 --> 00:57:36,334.4615 They need to figure this out, And, you know, it's, it's just heartbreaking because with a little bit of information. 442 00:57:36,344.4615 --> 00:57:42,894.4615 Now, I'm not saying go ahead and do, you know, uh, something that's going to put you in trouble. 443 00:57:42,924.4615 --> 00:57:44,964.4105 That is, you know, the legal risks are real. 444 00:57:44,964.4105 --> 00:57:46,109.3615 They're, they're, they're real. 445 00:57:46,309.4615 --> 00:57:47,439.4615 They're actually real. 446 00:57:47,839.4615 --> 00:57:51,319.4615 Um, but if someone does choose to do that, they should be able to get the support. 447 00:57:51,599.4615 --> 00:57:55,899.4615 And if we could decriminalize it, then they, we can just let go of all of that. 448 00:57:56,889.4605 --> 00:58:10,399.4605 Oh, really heartache, like actual heartache that these, that these people are experiencing and going through these struggling, wanting to find support, trying to find support, trying to go a lot of. 449 00:58:10,989.4615 --> 00:58:14,949.4615 A lot of stories in there about not being able to get help through doctors. 450 00:58:14,949.4615 --> 00:58:31,394.4615 Some people scared to take the only medicines that are available that you're not actually supposed to take while you're pregnant, right? And worried about dropping into a depression while they're pregnant or while they're breastfeeding or in postpartum, because that, that is harmful to the child. 451 00:58:31,804.4615 --> 00:58:48,644.4615 They're the, the, the safety profile that we've seen so far, the, the amount of long, I mean, their ACEs adverse childhood experiences, like this is in public health and community to try to reduce ACEs. 452 00:58:49,54.4615 --> 00:58:52,264.4615 And it's just, and it's so simple. 453 00:58:52,304.4605 --> 00:58:53,684.4605 It's decriminalization. 454 00:58:53,994.4615 --> 00:59:19,49.3615 That's like, You know, at least for this aspect of it, um, to start the broader topic and who knows what else we will discover what other modalities, you know, whether it be through indigenous practices or through science, because as scientists start becoming aware of these things that those of us who started are have already started this connection between body and mind that you start. 455 00:59:19,479.4615 --> 00:59:27,579.4615 Hearing it on the outskirts, you know, you start hearing a nurse scientist talk about it or a brain surgeon or, you know, different people. 456 00:59:27,739.4605 --> 00:59:35,979.4615 Um, my friends, uh, oncologist, you know, started teaching her more about some of these other modalities. 457 00:59:37,34.4615 --> 00:59:42,944.4615 And it's through that, that we actually will get the healing that the world needs. 458 00:59:42,944.4615 --> 00:59:46,434.4615 And especially mothers like they're, they're raising our next generation. 459 00:59:47,104.4615 --> 00:59:52,994.4615 And even if you're not a mom, like, say you're watching this right now, you're not a mom, you don't have kids, don't have kids. 460 00:59:53,244.4615 --> 01:00:02,34.4615 Like it's still the people as you get into your elderly years, it is the younger generation that's going to be helping you. 461 01:00:02,574.4615 --> 01:00:03,54.4615 And. 462 01:00:04,79.4615 --> 01:00:09,929.4615 Even if you're not a mom and not a parent, like this affects us all it affects everybody. 463 01:00:10,559.4615 --> 01:00:15,129.4615 You know, do you want the, I'm going to use this because this is in the news. 464 01:00:15,529.4615 --> 01:00:28,259.4615 Do you want the person in the control tower for the airplanes being stressed, unable to get support? I'm not saying you should use microdosing over there, but I'm just talking about a general picture. 465 01:00:28,539.4615 --> 01:00:35,129.4605 Let's say one of the kids grows up and this is their career, not, maybe they're not using it, but they've now developed the tools. 466 01:00:35,149.4615 --> 01:00:43,259.4605 They have the nervous system regulation because their mom was more regulated because you, children learn how to regulate their nervous systems based off their parents. 467 01:00:43,719.4605 --> 01:00:49,939.4615 And, um, That's, you know, a whole conversation, right? That's another reason why this is so important. 468 01:00:49,949.4615 --> 01:01:08,169.4615 I mean, there's so many avenues to why this information needs to be out there and it needs to, it needs to continue and it needs to be looked at seriously and not just as some, you know, hype thing that's going on because all these mothers will tell you it's not hype. 469 01:01:08,599.4615 --> 01:01:09,639.4615 This is their life. 470 01:01:10,9.4615 --> 01:01:14,529.4615 This is their, their wellbeing that has benefited from the mushrooms. 471 01:01:15,212.399 --> 01:01:15,922.399 Absolutely. 472 01:01:16,202.399 --> 01:01:16,502.399 Yeah. 473 01:01:16,612.399 --> 01:01:17,192.399 No, thank you. 474 01:01:17,552.399 --> 01:01:18,422.399 Thank you for that piece. 475 01:01:18,462.399 --> 01:01:27,72.399 And, um, I, I love that we get into this discussion in the research paper itself, like the audio book, like really goes into it. 476 01:01:27,72.399 --> 01:01:38,357.299 And I really look forward to just like the large, like the longer form discussion of this conversation around ACEs and like how households that children live in. 477 01:01:38,777.399 --> 01:01:59,307.399 Set them up for their future life, um, because, um, there is some hype around moms that eat mushrooms right now, like, it's like a trendy thing for moms to microdose, and I would say microdosing among the mothers as we found in this research is like pretty common. 478 01:01:59,687.399 --> 01:02:02,837.399 There is a wide range of doses among mothers. 479 01:02:02,837.399 --> 01:02:22,337.399 And so definitely want to just name that like microdosing mom is just barely scratching the surface on like what a mother's and person's, you know, relationship is with mushroom and mothers are ceremonialists and cultivators and advocates and, you know, coaches. 480 01:02:22,367.399 --> 01:02:24,157.399 Like we're all up in this space. 481 01:02:24,157.399 --> 01:02:26,47.399 We're all up in the psychedelic community. 482 01:02:26,47.399 --> 01:02:27,197.399 We're all up in the wellness. 483 01:02:27,597.399 --> 01:02:44,467.3985 Like a lot of mothers are in this place and have seven gram journeys under their belt postpartum, you know, it's not, it's not very common, but there is a small percentage of the mothers in the research that were, you know, having, you know, three gram journeys in their pregnancy, myself included. 484 01:02:44,467.3985 --> 01:02:56,427.399 And so I just, I really just want to name that the microdosing mom is like a tropeecause the American public needed to like microdose the idea that moms had relationships with mushrooms. 485 01:02:56,757.398 --> 01:03:08,562.399 Um, And that's one thing, um, and You know, de stigmatizing at every dose, I think, is very important. 486 01:03:08,882.399 --> 01:03:16,632.399 There's, I think, a stigma around that, like, its better to have the one foot in, one foot out of microdosing. 487 01:03:16,642.399 --> 01:03:23,62.399 Like, oh, well, like, you know, but you can still, like, cook and clean, right? Like, you can still, like, be present in your parenting. 488 01:03:23,72.399 --> 01:03:29,742.399 And, like, that's, that helps to maintain, kind of, like, the standard of, like, what mothers are expected to be in our world. 489 01:03:29,992.399 --> 01:03:44,902.3985 And what I will say is with these higher dose experiences, like mothers are going into deep contemplative states for hours on end, coming out of those experiences, and then integrating with their families again, and like taking all these teachings and applying them to their households. 490 01:03:44,902.3985 --> 01:04:02,257.399 And I, I would say even on like, you know, the further end of this conversation, there is this conversation around like, what about your kids? Like, and, you know, are you dosing your children? And there's, you know, this like, fear comes up around Children's interactions with psilocybin mushrooms. 491 01:04:02,257.399 --> 01:04:33,367.399 And so what I will say to that is concerning ACEs, concerning the way that households are structured and built is like when moms have this relationship with their nervous system that it's like both tended to, they have a rich inner landscape where they're like approaching these deeply rooted issues and things, what we've seen is that the children of these parents, as reported by the parents, so we need to talk to these kids longitudinally, right? Some of these kids are going to be 10 and 15, right? And if they're In some, some of them a few years, honestly. 492 01:04:33,367.399 --> 01:05:08,977.399 So like, we can actually talk to them about what was it like being in your household growing up? What was it like when your mom would go and have journeys and then come back? What mood would she be in after she would come back from those experiences? Like, what was it like living in the house that you lived in? Like knowing that your mom had a relationship with the substance? Like, you know? What I'm seeing and observing with the mothers that I'm in relationship with is that the children get the down the road benefits of psilocybin because the psilocybin has impacted the way that the moms function and then inspired the mothers to like structure the home in a way. 493 01:05:09,32.399 --> 01:05:27,972.398 That's like conducive in pacing in the kinds of foods that is being eaten, the kind of television that's being consumed, the kind of music that's in the home, the plants, the, the cleanliness of the house, like it's changing the way that parents and families are constructing the inner landscape of their. 494 01:05:28,237.399 --> 01:05:29,7.399 of their home. 495 01:05:29,417.399 --> 01:05:32,837.399 And so those are the benefits that the kids are receiving. 496 01:05:32,837.399 --> 01:05:53,757.399 It's not necessarily we're handing a three year old some mushroom, although in different cultures and places, a three year old would be ingesting like psilocybin mushrooms or the first interaction that a child might have with psilocybin as actually a safety mechanism is through the breast milk, which is an interesting conversation to have because all of us seem to be trying to avoid the psilocybin. 497 01:05:54,12.399 --> 01:05:55,262.399 breast milk for our kids. 498 01:05:55,262.399 --> 01:06:00,203.5015 But like in some communities, that's how kids get Transcript, quote, quote, quote. 499 01:06:00,203.5015 --> 01:06:02,455.4215 That's what it says. 500 01:06:02,455.4215 --> 01:06:06,532.399 That's, I think, Um, and that filtration system that happens. 501 01:06:06,542.398 --> 01:06:27,422.399 But I would just say in short, like the obsession with moms dosing their kids, I think misses the fact that the Children receive benefit like by being in proximity to To the healing that psilocybin is providing for their parents and how their parents is now constructing the world around them. 502 01:06:27,422.399 --> 01:06:31,62.399 So, you know, that's a meaningful part. 503 01:06:31,232.399 --> 01:07:04,319.3615 I, I look forward to the longitudinal part of this research so that we can touch in with these kids way down the road and get a decent assessment of their ACEs, get a decent assessment of, you know, correlationally is psilocybin also supporting parents in creating school choices, housing choices, food choices, that then set their kids up for a better life in compared, in comparison to maybe averages in their neighborhood or averages for their city or averages says. 504 01:07:04,542.399 --> 01:07:16,502.398 on race or gender or anything like that, you know, that's all we can really do is compare against national averages really, um, to see how the psilocybin families stack up against like what is currently popular. 505 01:07:16,522.399 --> 01:07:18,412.399 in, in our parenting cultures. 506 01:07:18,702.399 --> 01:07:30,482.399 So, um, I just want to name, it's not uncommon for children as young as three or in breastfeeding age to come in contact with some psilocybin, probably not much, but some. 507 01:07:30,482.399 --> 01:07:41,327.399 So I just want to name that first as pretty consistent across some traditions that still utilize psilocybin in their, in their, circles. 508 01:07:41,737.399 --> 01:07:52,267.399 And like we are obsession with dosing our kids is like ill founded because they're receiving benefit outside of the chemical augmentation that psilocybin might provide. 509 01:07:52,597.398 --> 01:08:00,397.399 And, um, you know, it's going to actually take long term study to get an understanding for the benefits. 510 01:08:00,762.399 --> 01:08:02,422.399 that these children are receiving. 511 01:08:02,432.399 --> 01:08:12,402.399 We see the benefits for the moms, but we're not going to be able to assess long term safety and benefit until we can actually talk to these kids when they're teenagers or young adults. 512 01:08:14,759.4615 --> 01:08:21,479.4615 Um, you, you know, so many things that are coming through my mind at the same time. 513 01:08:21,949.4615 --> 01:08:22,229.4615 Okay. 514 01:08:22,249.4615 --> 01:08:29,999.4615 And so one of the things that you brought up the, the breastfeeding and having the psilocybin coming through. 515 01:08:31,29.4615 --> 01:08:32,819.4615 You happened to be there when I had. 516 01:08:33,274.4615 --> 01:08:38,864.4615 Earlier earlier today, even having a conversation with Jordan and James and. 517 01:08:39,554.4615 --> 01:08:55,334.4605 You know, 1 of the pushbacks they've gotten is that how could how can micro dosing work across the board? Right and 1 of the things that we do know, at least a little bit right now, and then there's more research that should be coming out about it. 518 01:08:55,694.4605 --> 01:08:56,414.4615 Is that. 519 01:08:58,4.4615 --> 01:09:12,344.4615 And I think this in a 99% certain it was with psilocybin, the study that I'm thinking of off the top of my head is that it impacts the, the pathways to, for mitochondria to be improved. 520 01:09:12,624.4615 --> 01:09:18,594.4605 And it actually ends up with a downstream effect to, um, inflammation to reduce inflammation. 521 01:09:18,934.4615 --> 01:09:23,554.4615 And it also has a downstream effect of being able to increase neuroplasticity. 522 01:09:23,994.4615 --> 01:09:36,549.4615 So, We know that when you have healthy mitochondria, you are a healthier person that is like undisputed at this point, like absolutely undisputed. 523 01:09:36,589.4615 --> 01:09:38,709.4615 There is so much research on it there. 524 01:09:39,219.4605 --> 01:09:41,459.4615 It's not even a question anymore. 525 01:09:42,124.4615 --> 01:09:43,784.4615 You'll see it around everywhere. 526 01:09:43,784.4615 --> 01:09:49,634.4615 How do you mitochondrial health support mitochondrial support? You know, like you'll see mitochondria and maybe you've never heard it before. 527 01:09:49,634.4615 --> 01:09:55,944.4615 If you're listening or watching, but I promise you it's out there where people are talking about mitochondrial health. 528 01:09:56,304.4615 --> 01:10:04,574.4615 And if the psilocybin mushrooms are increasing mitochondrial health, then the person is going to have an increase in health and wellbeing. 529 01:10:04,844.4615 --> 01:10:07,684.4615 There it's, it's, um, They go hand in hand. 530 01:10:08,204.4615 --> 01:10:20,304.4605 And, um, so it will not surprise me at all later on when we discover like, Oh, we should have been giving everyone's the mitochondrial health. 531 01:10:21,304.4615 --> 01:10:23,924.3615 Um, I mean, I don't know that that's the. 532 01:10:25,74.4615 --> 01:10:29,914.4615 I mean, that's actually the science is there, so it's not completely far fetched to say that. 533 01:10:30,334.4615 --> 01:10:34,304.4615 Obviously, everything is a personal choice and a personal decision. 534 01:10:34,324.4615 --> 01:10:40,584.4615 And you mentioned the word self determination, which is actually a very important phrase in my life. 535 01:10:40,774.4615 --> 01:10:45,154.4615 My younger son is disabled and here in California, we have a self determination program. 536 01:10:45,654.4615 --> 01:10:50,384.4615 And I was very fortunate to be one of the very first trained independent facilitators. 537 01:10:50,384.4615 --> 01:10:53,304.4615 And for a few years, I've worked on the project for. 538 01:10:53,634.4615 --> 01:11:16,24.4615 The state, um, helping people get into the self determination program and it cannot be over like underestimated how important self determination is making the choices for yourself, for your life, how beneficial it is in creating any kind of change in your life. 539 01:11:16,814.4615 --> 01:11:24,569.4615 And the medical model, while I think it has served a purpose and still will always continue to serve a purpose. 540 01:11:24,569.5615 --> 01:11:41,279.4615 The, the, the idea that you go to someone and they fix you and you come back and you're better takes away that agency that is instrumental for, I think, all mental health. 541 01:11:41,939.4615 --> 01:11:49,939.4615 And, um, because that is where, where a lot of the struggles that most people experience. 542 01:11:50,239.4615 --> 01:11:51,119.4605 But mental health. 543 01:11:52,64.4615 --> 01:11:57,324.4615 Is a byproduct of poor mitochondrial health, and that we also know. 544 01:11:57,784.4615 --> 01:12:03,704.4615 So any way you look at it when you're in this discussion on the safety. 545 01:12:04,324.4615 --> 01:12:11,154.4615 There is evidence showing it's safe and beneficial across the board. 546 01:12:11,884.4615 --> 01:12:29,804.4615 The biggest part of the conversation is how do we decriminalize and how do we get this knowledge disseminated from the people who know actually how to, how to work with this and get it disseminated into the hands of the people that can benefit from it. 547 01:12:33,602.399 --> 01:12:33,722.399 Okay. 548 01:12:33,722.499 --> 01:12:34,867.299 Yeah. 549 01:12:37,314.4615 --> 01:12:37,494.4615 Yeah. 550 01:12:40,327.399 --> 01:13:26,867.399 There's, mean, um, a lot of avenues to getting meaningful information to people and, um, you know, open mindedness and being courteous and conscientious and thoughtful and, you know, Recognizing the many ways of knowing something and coming and finding conclusions is going to be a meaningful step, right? I think that's what we kind of write into the ending of the research document is, you know, it's going to take a really interesting concerted effort on the part of lawmakers and Care providers and physicians and native people and people in the underground that have been doing this for a long time as well. 551 01:13:26,867.399 --> 01:13:44,527.399 And um, you know, I don't know if we'll find a full blown consensus on like where we stand on this topic, but we can't really move too much in the right direction if, um, we're, we're really rigid in our views. 552 01:13:44,722.399 --> 01:13:50,22.399 You know, we're really rigid in the things and we're really dogmatic about our points of view. 553 01:13:50,22.399 --> 01:14:02,172.398 I think that really that also undermines kind of like scientific inquiry, right? If we like just believe in what we believe that any knowledge that comes in, uh, cannot be absorbed. 554 01:14:02,172.398 --> 01:14:42,497.399 And so I just, you know, even as a citizen science, like, My interest has always been in, you know, medicine and being and becoming a doctor and biology and those kinds of areas of study was like my area of study before, um, I moved into literature, creative writing, social studies and other things, but like, To keep an open mindedness to new information, like what you're talking about with mitochondrial health and, you know, science and health need to be adaptable to new discovery and and recovery of information. 555 01:14:42,912.399 --> 01:15:28,407.299 And, um, what's nice is that we're just recovering information that's been widely known, especially as it pertains to the integration of psilocybin in the human family and use of psilocybin in the human family is traced, you know, Hundreds of thousands of years, at least, and, um, in like documented history, at least 5, 000 years, you know, if we are, um, paying homage to some of our, you know, early educators in the psychedelic community in the Western psychedelic community, I definitely think about people like Dennis McKenna, who was really trying to trace, you know, psilocybin's interaction with the development of the human brain development system. 556 01:15:28,517.399 --> 01:15:45,107.399 Um, and language and symbolic language and leaps in consciousness around collaboration and inquisitive thought and all these things that we consider holds us distinct against the beasts. 557 01:15:45,247.399 --> 01:15:47,867.399 You know what I mean? It's like all the things that make us human. 558 01:15:48,847.399 --> 01:16:09,742.399 Was it all a gift, you know, and in food of the gods and Terrence McKenna's conversation around how psilocybin assisted humans and like kind of developing modern brain functioning, though, as we know it, you know, His inquiry really kind of focused on what psilocybin did to the hunting class of people. 559 01:16:09,742.399 --> 01:16:28,932.399 And like, you know, people going out and finding cow patties and flipping them over and, you know, ingesting them and making them better hunters and more willing to collaborate with other hunters and, um, community members and be more sexually active and procreate more and just build build differently. 560 01:16:28,942.399 --> 01:16:33,702.399 Like, we don't have sharp teeth or long claws, but like, we have each other. 561 01:16:33,702.399 --> 01:16:36,332.399 And we kind of discovered like how to be better together. 562 01:16:36,672.399 --> 01:17:12,822.399 And, um, what I've just seen even, you know, studying a little bit of Terrence's work and like the stone ape hypothesis and stuff is like, there's actually even a gap in this stone ape hypothesis about how psilocybin might have impacted mothers and might've impacted, uh, The gatherers in the hunter gatherer story, and how the generation and the creating of like domestic life and family and the sharing of information and tools like from domestic life, you know, might have been impacted by psilocybin and how the mechanism for evolution will and always will be and always will be birth. 563 01:17:13,82.399 --> 01:17:15,592.399 You can't evolve without the mechanism of birth. 564 01:17:15,592.399 --> 01:17:35,652.399 So if we are going to call psilocybin responsible for all of these things that make us human, our ability to talk, our ability to be collaborative and share information with each other, how can we ignore the role of mothers and like eating mushrooms while pregnant as like the primary mechanism for that occurring? So, you know, it's, it's cool. 565 01:17:35,702.399 --> 01:17:50,392.399 It's really, I just hope people stay very open minded to the idea that, you know, everyone's praying for an evolution in consciousness, but how is that going to happen? The mechanism of birth is the way that evolution takes place. 566 01:17:50,622.398 --> 01:18:04,852.399 And if psilocybin was responsible for a giant leap in consciousness, according to Terrence McKenna, like, I like to keep an open mind about what it might do with the resurgence of psilocybin use in birthing people in this day. 567 01:18:05,332.399 --> 01:18:23,377.398 So, um, Yeah, that's kind of an interesting and exciting thing and kind of my like, far reaching view is, you know, some of those things Terrence was talking about speech development and empathy and collaborative nature symbolic. 568 01:18:24,272.399 --> 01:18:30,447.0503889 You know, acquisition of knowledge and storytelling was large reported in some of these surveysly Yes. 569 01:18:30,447.0503889 --> 01:18:51,526.8726111 I think it's really important for all of us to be able to do this together. 570 01:18:51,526.8726111 --> 01:18:52,844.3615 Yes. 571 01:18:52,857.398 --> 01:18:54,417.399 incredibly involved for his age. 572 01:18:54,757.399 --> 01:18:56,117.399 So, you know, it is. 573 01:18:56,447.399 --> 01:19:11,262.3985 It's so cool to know that seeds were planted a really long time ago that we are recovering you know, and rediscovering and, and furthering, you know, by being past these batons like from Terrence. 574 01:19:11,262.3985 --> 01:19:35,97.399 You know, I'm feeling with this project, very much a baton being passed from Terrence to us to kind of continue this conversation and from James Fadiman and Jordan, um, a baton being passed, you know, like, young people taking up our curiosity in the psychedelic space as like the next generation of inquiry and this research project. 575 01:19:35,652.399 --> 01:19:45,352.399 This is just the beginning of the field of psychedelic research for mothers and children, um, which I'm very grateful to be a part of. 576 01:19:45,362.399 --> 01:19:47,352.398 So thank you for being a part of it. 577 01:19:47,362.399 --> 01:20:14,177.398 And as I mentioned, it's going to take openness, curiosity, and collaboration to kind of see this Into a point where the, the vast, like social community of the Western world might even look at this with some benevolence because I still face pushback and this is bad science. 578 01:20:14,197.398 --> 01:20:15,427.399 This is dangerous. 579 01:20:15,437.399 --> 01:20:19,307.399 How can you even do this? You know, doors slammed in my face. 580 01:20:19,347.399 --> 01:20:20,847.399 This isn't real science. 581 01:20:20,847.399 --> 01:20:22,937.399 Like that's still happening. 582 01:20:23,7.399 --> 01:20:26,777.399 So, you know, I just humbly come to this conversation like. 583 01:20:26,972.399 --> 01:20:28,762.399 I'm so willing to be wrong. 584 01:20:29,112.399 --> 01:20:42,42.399 I'm so willing to shift and change views if there's evidence to, you know, suggest that this, this path is not the right way to go in. 585 01:20:42,202.399 --> 01:21:06,927.399 So if I can maybe make that agreement, know, for this conversation, I hope that other scientists are willing to also be that flexible too, because what we're sitting on, this information is, is very, um, It challenges a lot of norms and it challenges a lot of the ways that we've been thinking about moms and how we approach our concerns. 586 01:21:07,47.398 --> 01:21:13,227.399 So, um, yeah, the future is very bright and we have a long way to go. 587 01:21:15,784.5615 --> 01:21:30,704.4605 Um, I, I just, I want to share something too, about why I will be continuing with this research and keep supporting this project as much as possible. 588 01:21:31,564.4615 --> 01:21:50,154.4615 And it came in a moment, you know, I mentioned the stories a lot, but there was 1 moment when I was sitting right here at my desk going through the stories and I bust out in tears because I read a story that was same, same, but different. 589 01:21:50,204.4615 --> 01:21:51,164.4615 It was similar. 590 01:21:51,494.4615 --> 01:21:55,874.4615 And it was about a mom who had turned to the mushrooms because they had no support. 591 01:21:56,759.4615 --> 01:22:06,609.4615 My mom died when I was young, I don't have any brothers or sisters, my ex's family does not live nearby as literally, you know, on my own. 592 01:22:06,629.4615 --> 01:22:17,564.4615 And if it wasn't for, um, my best friend who, and some other moms that would, you know, help out here and there, I was literally on my own raising, you know the kids. 593 01:22:17,594.4615 --> 01:22:34,834.4605 And hearing or what I say, hearing, reading that woman's story and how, how much the mushrooms felt gave her support and a, like a lifeline. 594 01:22:36,394.4605 --> 01:22:38,704.4615 I wish I had had that. 595 01:22:39,774.4615 --> 01:22:43,804.4615 I would love to say that I've been, you know, a perfect mom, but I have not. 596 01:22:44,174.4615 --> 01:22:49,364.4605 And I will be honest, like my, the first few years of being a parent. 597 01:22:50,124.4615 --> 01:23:05,934.4605 I'm really good at putting on a good face, but I struggled and there was, um, my younger son has a, uh, a brain injury and he's been going to speech since he was like 3 and I don't remember which year was in particular, but I. 598 01:23:07,104.4615 --> 01:23:11,64.4615 I was having a conversation, you know, with the speech therapist and we're, we're friendly. 599 01:23:11,424.4615 --> 01:23:19,694.4615 So we talk about stuff and, um, I had this moment and I, and I realized how absurd it was when I was like saying it. 600 01:23:20,404.4615 --> 01:23:23,94.4615 And she just like looked at me kind of dumbfounded. 601 01:23:23,644.4605 --> 01:23:27,634.4615 And I was talking about how, Oh yeah, I've been crying every day for a year. 602 01:23:27,814.4615 --> 01:23:30,544.4615 I finally took some vitamin D and I feel a little bit better. 603 01:23:31,414.4615 --> 01:23:33,194.4615 And I was like, and it was true. 604 01:23:33,204.4615 --> 01:23:36,454.4615 It was a year, like I would hide away in the bathroom crying. 605 01:23:36,454.4615 --> 01:23:36,954.4615 I can't tell you. 606 01:23:37,284.4615 --> 01:23:50,954.4615 And I remember my older son, me, like I come out and forgot to check my, my makeup and he's like, mom, what's wrong? And their dad would be like, Hey, you know, because I was crying all the, all the time and I didn't know how to, I, and I was so scared. 607 01:23:51,194.4615 --> 01:23:54,524.4615 I didn't have support and I didn't know how to get through it. 608 01:23:54,984.4615 --> 01:23:57,444.4615 And, um, what I know now. 609 01:23:57,949.4615 --> 01:24:04,269.4615 And not just from that story, but because of what I know now and knowing how I didn't have to struggle. 610 01:24:04,299.4615 --> 01:24:09,279.4615 And I know that there's other mothers that were struggling to, that don't have to like unnecessarily. 611 01:24:09,299.4605 --> 01:24:17,879.4615 And I tell you with certainty, my kids are, have a better life now because of the work that I have done personally. 612 01:24:18,369.4615 --> 01:24:23,629.4615 And my older son, um, the first time I, I knew it was a large journey. 613 01:24:23,629.4615 --> 01:24:26,564.3615 So even though I'm huge on microdosing, this is. 614 01:24:26,864.4615 --> 01:24:29,104.4615 My, my wheelhouse is micro dosing. 615 01:24:29,694.4615 --> 01:24:31,914.4615 I'm not against macro dosing. 616 01:24:32,474.4615 --> 01:24:48,364.4615 It's kind of like micro dosing is like an online course where you can take in little information here and there and integrate it slowly and, um, uh, larger dose is like going to retreat and they both are beneficial and they serve different purposes. 617 01:24:48,844.4615 --> 01:24:58,614.4615 And, um, but somewhere along the way, um, my, my older son was like, you know, you're a lot. 618 01:24:59,944.4615 --> 01:25:01,914.4615 I don't remember if he said like chiller or whatever. 619 01:25:01,974.4615 --> 01:25:09,944.461 He's like, I don't remember the last time you screamed because I would just get so overwhelmed, partly my ADHD and the, and would get loud. 620 01:25:09,944.461 --> 01:25:11,814.4615 And I just couldn't, I'd be like, Oh my God, just stop. 621 01:25:11,874.4615 --> 01:25:15,474.4605 And it would be like, cause I couldn't do it. 622 01:25:15,514.4615 --> 01:25:19,324.4615 And I don't remember the last time that I did that. 623 01:25:19,374.4615 --> 01:25:31,569.4615 And, um, You know, it started from that 1st large journey and I just I don't want other moms to struggle the way that I have. 624 01:25:31,879.4615 --> 01:25:35,189.4615 And if I can put in effort to get this information out there. 625 01:25:35,189.4615 --> 01:25:37,629.4615 So someone else doesn't have to go through what I did. 626 01:25:38,279.4605 --> 01:25:38,929.4615 It's worth it. 627 01:25:39,264.5615 --> 01:25:45,347.4 Yeah, so personal. 628 01:25:45,907.398 --> 01:25:53,537.399 And, um, Um, I mean, that was such a big motivation as well. 629 01:25:53,557.399 --> 01:26:13,307.399 My own personal struggle and experience in the postpartum space and, um, and also just getting on calls with moms and talking to them about what they're experiencing and suicidal ideation and crippling, you know, anxiety and not wanting to get out of bed or crying at bedtime because the night's going to be so hard. 630 01:26:13,307.399 --> 01:26:13,697.399 I mean, I. 631 01:26:15,802.399 --> 01:26:16,572.399 It wasn't easy. 632 01:26:17,602.399 --> 01:26:19,902.399 postpartum is also not 40 days. 633 01:26:20,162.399 --> 01:26:47,997.4615 Um, There are like wheels within wheels with the motherhood experience, and I feel like with a five year old, I'm only just now coming back to a version of myself that feels in some ways not completely tethered to a tiny person, and I think that becomes even more intensified when there's learning disabilities or when there's injury or like when there's different levels of, um, attachment that you have to form with children with different levels of need. 634 01:26:47,997.4615 --> 01:27:06,607.4605 And so like, you know, for moms to just be told, Hey, six weeks, like you should be back to your regular functioning, um, in this system that doesn't really even care about your mental health or physical wellbeing or emotional wellbeing, um, is putting moms in a predicament. 635 01:27:07,937.4615 --> 01:27:24,637.4615 Where we're seeing 3 million cases of postpartum depression every year, and it isn't getting better with the advent of SSRIs or other pharmaceuticals, anti psychotics and anti anxiety medications, all the wine in the world, and talk therapy is not fixing this 3 million people a year problem. 636 01:27:25,127.4615 --> 01:27:38,692.4615 So, We have to be curious about alternatives and other modalities that are not only like culturally competent, which I think is important. 637 01:27:38,722.4605 --> 01:28:00,352.4615 Um, but, but also, as you mentioned that self determination, I feel very proud of you, Wendy, like when you share stories like that, because you certainly put forth a ton of effort to get well, you know, the mushrooms certainly helped create an environment where The things you were trying began to ingrain themselves better into your neural network. 638 01:28:00,372.4615 --> 01:28:15,672.4615 But you know, it takes like dedication to adjust the way that you think to bring in a different kind of eating its choices every single day that make those micracles happen. 639 01:28:15,682.4615 --> 01:28:17,522.4615 It's not overnight for sure. 640 01:28:17,932.4615 --> 01:28:23,762.4615 As I mentioned before, my relationship with mushroom has been 11 years, almost 12 years long now. 641 01:28:24,132.4615 --> 01:28:32,542.4615 And the person I was when I first encountered psilocybin is a vastly different human, but it's taken that long to get here. 642 01:28:32,852.4605 --> 01:28:38,22.4615 So, you know, I just want to commend you for, for finding your way out. 643 01:28:38,192.4615 --> 01:28:53,852.4615 And I want to just think, of course, all the moms that, like, dedicated their lives and risked their family's lives to, like, make this choice and, you know, tell their story and the many moms that have been doing this that don't know about. 644 01:28:54,762.4615 --> 01:29:05,282.4615 That make the choice every day to try to show up for their family and like, wipe those tears and still do dishes and still cook meals, even though they're absolutely falling apart on the inside. 645 01:29:05,312.4615 --> 01:29:07,792.4605 Like I see you, you know, I see you. 646 01:29:07,792.4615 --> 01:29:09,532.4615 This is why we're here. 647 01:29:09,542.4605 --> 01:29:12,482.4605 This is, you are the primary motivation. 648 01:29:12,482.4605 --> 01:29:51,372.4615 Like the moms are the primary, the children are the primary motivation for why we are spending so much energy on this project, know, and, um, I feel very proud of you Wendy for staying, you know, staying with it, staying with your family, you know, trying, trying anything that you could um, get well, you know what I mean? And, um, behind this beautiful research behind all of this, like dope graphics and fucking presentations and podcasts and stuff are like real breakdowns, you know, real breakthroughs. 649 01:29:51,852.4615 --> 01:30:26,347.4615 And, um, a lot of help, you know, from, from La Medicina and also like supportive care providers and other practitioners and other mothers that care and people that, um, and people, the people that, you know, Just want to see us be good, you know, and so the support and the community and the people and the practices around a person's practice with mushroom, like absolutely optimizes benefit. 650 01:30:26,787.4615 --> 01:30:34,767.4615 And yeah, maybe you can stay exactly the same, maybe add a little mushroom to that, maybe see some benefit. 651 01:30:34,827.4615 --> 01:30:35,267.4615 Sure. 652 01:30:35,327.4615 --> 01:30:37,917.4615 Like that, that person exists for sure. 653 01:30:37,977.4615 --> 01:30:58,822.4615 But what I see more often than not is like, The integration of psilocybin in a person really motivated to change and be well and it being a supportive agent within a myriad of meaningful and supportive activities that help to reinforce positive change in a person's life. 654 01:30:59,182.4615 --> 01:31:02,142.3615 So, um, room for. 655 01:31:02,462.4615 --> 01:31:08,632.4615 There's there's room for self determination and there's room for helpers and guides and support systems. 656 01:31:08,662.4615 --> 01:31:16,892.4605 And there's, yeah, there's rooms for whole communities of people that are like telling mothers that, you know, keep going. 657 01:31:16,922.4615 --> 01:31:19,392.4605 Like we see you and we want to see you thrive. 658 01:31:19,432.4605 --> 01:31:30,42.4615 I think the more people we have saying that, the more benefit we'll see in the 3 million number, you know, like they are looking for something different. 659 01:31:30,52.4615 --> 01:31:46,37.4615 The I would like to say that care providers are looking for better solutions, you know, like we're willing to work with fucking anyone and give them this information because I know they're at their wits end, not being able to meet the needs of the people in front of them. 660 01:31:47,57.4615 --> 01:31:50,887.4615 And, um, I just, I'm very moved. 661 01:31:50,907.4615 --> 01:31:55,497.4615 I'm very moved by your story and I'm very moved by like all the individual stories. 662 01:31:55,497.4615 --> 01:32:01,587.4615 So as, as cool and shiny as like all the research is, I really encourage people to maybe just. 663 01:32:02,22.4615 --> 01:32:16,42.4615 Take a moment to read even just a couple of the stories in a category that you might be interested in, um, because they're very captivating and they really make the research feel very human and very real. 664 01:32:21,204.4615 --> 01:32:39,569.4605 this is, I'm so glad you, I'm so glad to be a part of the project and thank you for coming on today to Discuss this, because these are conversations that we've had behind the scenes a little bit here and there, but it's, it's important. 665 01:32:39,569.4615 --> 01:32:48,509.4615 I think for people to know about this and why we're here and why it's important and and it's not just the numbers. 666 01:32:48,959.4605 --> 01:32:54,119.4615 These are real people behind those numbers and the real people that can be affected by it. 667 01:32:55,869.4615 --> 01:32:57,229.4615 So, before we go. 668 01:32:57,664.4615 --> 01:33:05,82.4605 Is there any last kind of closing thoughts that we didn't touch on that you wanted to? Yeah, guys, I spoke enough. 669 01:33:05,82.4605 --> 01:33:07,362.3615 I think, you know, um, please. 670 01:33:07,482.4615 --> 01:33:23,132.4615 You know, listen to the audio book as a mom who's like, I don't know, starting to think I'm a little neuro spicy too, but I just don't know in what ways, but you know, I just, I find it challenging for me to like sit down and read a long form article. 671 01:33:23,172.4615 --> 01:33:27,462.4615 Um, so we made an audio book for you of the findings. 672 01:33:27,462.4615 --> 01:33:51,127.4615 And so I hope that, yeah, go, you know, to the park and listen, or go just, you know, Pray with us while we, while we speak these words and, um, you know, we are trying to find every way to increase, um, our access to generous donations and funding and like collaborating with meaningful businesses that do care about this. 673 01:33:51,127.4615 --> 01:34:16,667.4605 I feel that, you know, if you're a microdosing coach, if you are, um, a practitioner of any kind that works with mothers, if you're a father, if you're a lawyer, care provider, um, you're a scientist, if you, you know, if you feel that this should exist, you know, we've been able to self fund quite a bit to be able to do what we've been able to do so far. 674 01:34:16,967.4615 --> 01:34:20,47.4615 And we've gotten so far with not very much. 675 01:34:20,297.4615 --> 01:34:53,292.4615 And so, um, I think this information and I'm feeling deeply that this information stands to benefit a lot of people and, um, if you feel that this should exist, come, come tell us, come send us a love note, um, and, you know, help us get into spaces where we might not otherwise be able to, to go, you know, and, um, this will, this is about the work that I'm set to do in my lifetime. 676 01:34:53,292.4615 --> 01:34:58,102.4615 Like I'm found the thing that I'm interested in and I'll probably be here for a while. 677 01:34:58,102.4615 --> 01:35:07,562.4615 So, you know, I, um, I'm very much here to collaborate with people in all sectors. 678 01:35:07,702.4615 --> 01:35:10,632.4615 Um, how could this information support? Yeah. 679 01:35:10,662.4615 --> 01:35:11,992.4615 The people in your communities. 680 01:35:12,2.4615 --> 01:35:14,212.4615 So, um, very accessible. 681 01:35:14,552.4615 --> 01:35:27,732.4615 Uh, my website is mush womb dot love and, um, available via email or DM or, you know, Check out mothersofthemushroom.com 682 01:35:27,752.4615 --> 01:35:43,652.4615 for like the stories and the research and all the things, but if you are at all interested in being named in the effort, you know, giving a generous donation, platforming us, you know, just hit us up, let us know, like we are here to travel and share this word. 683 01:35:43,662.4615 --> 01:35:46,582.4615 So, um, just, yeah, means a lot to be here. 684 01:35:46,582.4615 --> 01:35:48,62.4615 Thank you for the platform, Wendy. 685 01:35:48,72.4615 --> 01:35:52,122.4615 And, um, let's not forget where we come from. 686 01:35:53,954.4615 --> 01:35:54,524.4615 Thank you. 687 01:35:55,444.4615 --> 01:35:57,234.461 Ah, all right, everybody. 688 01:35:57,234.461 --> 01:35:58,774.4615 Thank you so much, Mikaela. 689 01:35:59,224.4615 --> 01:36:03,444.4615 It has been a pleasure and a true honor to have this conversation with you today. 690 01:36:03,942.4605 --> 01:36:04,422.4605 Thank you. 691 01:36:07,951.399 --> 01:36:09,951.399 Thank you for joining for today's episode. 692 01:36:10,301.399 --> 01:36:14,901.399 I hope you found the conversation interesting, maybe even a little inspiring. 693 01:36:15,191.399 --> 01:36:21,361.399 And if you're curious about how to work with our guests today, check out the show notes, because I'll have all the links and resources there. 694 01:36:21,681.399 --> 01:36:26,901.399 And if you're curious about how to work with me or what I offer, you can check out my website, wendygoesdeep.com 695 01:36:27,41.399 --> 01:36:29,441.398 to learn more about what it is that I do. 696 01:36:29,441.498 --> 01:36:35,371.398 And I'd like to take this opportunity to ask you for a little favor, growing this community. 697 01:36:35,531.399 --> 01:36:38,571.399 is only possible with support from people like you. 698 01:36:38,811.399 --> 01:36:44,261.399 If you could take a moment to like, subscribe, or maybe even share it with a friend, it helps more than you know. 699 01:36:44,731.399 --> 01:36:48,491.399 And until we can go deep again, stay curious and keep exploring.