Sexual Coercion with Allison Baxley

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Music.
Hi, hello, welcome to What Lies Buried, where we dive into the real and raw
stories of those who've experienced emotional abuse.
I'm your host, Carly Latham. Each week, we'll hear stories of real abuse told by real survivors.

(00:30):
This show is a safe space for abuse survivors to share their stories.
My guests will always be able to choose to remain anonymous.
There will be no names or locations, but a chance to have your voice heard because
buried beneath all the lies is the truth waiting to be uncovered.
Please note before beginning that I am not a professional.

(00:53):
I do not have a fancy degree to back me up. Just a series of unfortunate experiences.
This podcast is intended for mature audiences only.
We will be discussing themes of abuse, which may be triggering for some listeners.
Please proceed with caution.
Music.

(01:16):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of What Lies Buried.
Today's episode is going to start out a little bit differently.
I wanted to take a minute to introduce my guest, Allison Baxley,
who is a writer on the platform Medium.
She writes articles about abuse and is very talented.

(01:37):
Allison and I met after I wrote an article about sexual coercion,
and that will be the topic of today's episode.
So I wanted to take a minute and extend an extra trigger warning to anybody
who may find that disturbing. being.
So with that being said, hi, hello, welcome, Allison.
Would you please tell us a little bit about how your relationship began?

(02:02):
The way it started, like the way I just kind of woke up and was like,
oh my God, you know, this is, so we were married 22 years and my,
like, this was just January of 2023.
My parents would give us, like I was a stay-at-home spouse and he worked and
And my parents would give us money every Christmas and they had given us like,

(02:24):
I don't know, like $20,000 or something.
And so around, you know, the end of November of 22,
like that fall of 2022, he had just started getting like the abuse escalated
at a time, just rages and yelling and you have to get a job, you have to get a job.
And I had been out of the workforce for five years. So it was like, oh, okay.

(02:45):
And we moved from the city to a rural area. So like my job prospects were more.
Tractor supply and, you know, Publix or something versus, you know,
working in medical field, which I had done in the city.
And so I was like, well, you know, I could do this, I could do that.
And he just was getting more and more anxious about making me work.

(03:07):
And, you know, then I also have a farm, we bought a farm, there's horses,
there's, you know, six and a
half acres, and I was supposed to be taking care of that while he worked.
And now he's demanding I get a job. Anyway, Anyway, I got like a seasonal job
at UPS delivering packages, right?
So out of my car, which was like just for a neighborhood. Anyway,
you know, I earned like $5,000 at Christmas.

(03:29):
And then my parents gave us like $20,000 in cash.
And he still kind of just really, he was really mad because I took my paycheck
and I opened my own bank account and put that money in there because I knew
that's how he controlled me, right?
And I knew, like, I had some vet bills from a sick horse, so I wanted to pay that off.
And I decided that I would just, you know, open my account. And I knew he would

(03:52):
raise hell. And so, of course, he did.
And then I decided, all right, fine, I'm just paying off these vet bills.
Like, we had other debt to pay off, but he, you know, was pretty upset about
me having my own bank account and him having no control over that penny.
I was like, whatever, I'm paying these vet bills off.
And so I did. And then there was, like, lots of consternation around Christmas.
And I'm like, I don't know what your problem is. My parents are going to give

(04:13):
us a bunch of cash, which they did.
Then there was lots of fighting between Christmas and New Year's.
And then I, you know, like around the second week of January,
he was arguing with me about what to do with this large chunk of money.
And he wanted to pay off this like low interest rate loan that we had.
And I wanted to pay off credit cards because the interest rate is so much higher.
And but then he we were arguing about that and he was getting so volatile.

(04:37):
And then he was like threatening to leave me and I'm just going to leave you
and you're going to be stuck with Jake and you're not going to have anywhere to go.
I had had to leave several times after raging and like scary,
frightening rages that that was the way he controlled me really.
Like there was a lot of passive aggressive anger, but it's the,
it's the psychotic violent rages where, you know, I just knew if I did or said

(05:01):
the wrong thing, it would end with him pummeling me or killing me or something.
So that was a good way to keep me controlled.
And so around this time, I was like, well, I'm not going to be stuck again with
no cash, no money, and nowhere to go and no way to support my son. So I just...

(05:23):
Like after this huge argument that we were having like all day long,
I took like $15,000 and moved it into my account out of our joint. Good.
And I made him sleep downstairs that night because I was like,
I always sleep downstairs.
You go fucking sleep downstairs, you know. So he went to sleep downstairs,
but I guess he looked at the bank account and came flying upstairs in a rage.

(05:45):
And it was like close to midnight.
Our sun was below us. It's not like you can hear it. There's no concrete floor.
It was wood floor. so you could hear you could hear everything and there's
no not hearing yeah yeah yeah and so he's
like screaming yelling jumping up and down trying
to grab my phone and i'm kind of backed up against i'm sitting in bed and i'm
backed up against the headboard like oh shit and he's like that fucking money

(06:09):
and he's trying to grab my phone and open it so he can you know force me to
move the money over and i'm like no no that's how you control me i'm not doing that and he just kept
getting angrier and angrier and just went into this terrifying rage.
So I was like, look, I'm going to call 911.
I'm calling 911. Stop, stop. I'm calling 911.
And he kept trying to grab my phone and smash it. And somehow I grabbed it back

(06:32):
from him and I called 911.
And so then I kept them on the phone with me because they were like,
well, they're on their way. Do you want to stay on the phone?
I'm like, yes, I want to stay on the phone.
And then you can hear in the recording him screaming, yelling at me,
coming in the room and then leaving and coming in the room and And realizing
I'm on the phone and then he'd leave again.
But he's like, I can't believe you fucking called the cop, you know,

(06:53):
screaming and threatening me on the phone.
And then, yeah. And then the dispatcher's just like, you know,
do you want me to stay? I'm like, yes, yes. I want you to stay on the phone.
And so he finally said he was waiting outside for them, right?
So she's asking all these questions and the police get there.
And it's like two sets of officers.
So an officer comes in and talks to me. One stays out there.

(07:16):
And of course he afterwards tells me you know well the cop agreed with me that
you know I'd be irate too if my wife took $15,000 and moved in you know and I.
I finally put half of it back thinking like, okay, my parents gave us the money.
Half of it must be his. So I'll put half of it back. Later, my lawyer was like,

(07:36):
you didn't have to do that. But anyway, I did that.
And so that's kind of when it started. After that argument, that next day,
he went to work and I just was like, holy shit, you know, this just really escalated.
And then like, I was a paramedic for a long time.
So like, I was familiar with domestic violence and, And, you know,
but just never applied that to me.

(07:56):
And then all of a sudden I'm like, that really escalated. And then I'm thinking,
escalated? That's a word you use in domestic violence.
And then I'm thinking, oh, wait, you know what? That is domestic violence.
This has to be abuse, you know?
Yeah. And then I started Googling. And like most other people,
you know, Google leaves you down the rabbit hole. for the longest time.

(08:18):
I just, I was looking at emotional abuse and verbal abuse and psychological
abuse and he never actually hit me.
He one time pulled his fist back like he was going to hit me and then didn't.
Yeah. And I think he always knew that that would be, yeah, yeah.
And, you know, then the fact that I was being sexually coerced for that long,

(08:43):
you know, but the rest of that year, I had to live with him like that.
That would be terrifying.
And yeah, I'm actually really glad that you mentioned Googling these things,
because this is working as a paramedic, you actually were familiar with what
domestic violence looks like.
But the reason that I think this show and people like yourself who are telling

(09:07):
their stories are so important is that a lot of of the time we can be in the situation.
We can know these things and still not realize what's happening to us.
Yeah. It's like a fog, right? I mean, I've heard this from someone else.
I didn't create the word abuse coma, but somewhere I read it or heard it and

(09:27):
I apologize to whoever created it because they were smart. But that's what it is.
It's like you're in this coma. You're just constantly getting minute to minute
and not seeing the whole big picture.
And I think what I had experienced as a paramedic was running calls like where
women were beaten and, you know,

(09:48):
like, badly. And so it was physical violence.
So in my head, I just saw abuse as physical violence and really just didn't
know the terminology and all the other stuff that, you know, goes with it.
Yeah. But over that course of the year, I was living downstairs for a good bit of it in the basement.
And so we were having to like share common space and eat dinner with our son.

(10:11):
And that was unfortunately our son's senior year in high school,
which is, you know, I'm sure traumatizing himself because there was all kinds
of, you know, arguing and screaming and yelling.
And, you know, as much as I try to just go downstairs and get away from it,
you know, he just didn't want to let it go. And yeah.
And so I had hired a, a, like a high conflict divorce coach to help me work

(10:36):
out, you know, how to manage this.
And like I had animals to feed and he wouldn't feed the animals.
And so I would have to always come back, but like, you know,
a lot of times you need to leave.
But then my lawyer's telling me don't leave.
My divorce coach is telling me if you leave, I've had clients where their abuser killed their animals.

(10:58):
And I'm like, oh, gosh, that could potentially happen.
And so I was afraid of that. Just whatever he could do to hurt me, he would.
And so I was trying to follow the directions of people giving me advice.
And one was to pack a bag, have a bag in your car. So I always had my car locked
with a bag in it with a suitcase in there.

(11:18):
And one day he asked me like, why is your car always locked?
I'm like, because I can't trust you.
And you know, I have my laptop and stuff that I don't want you to get to in there.
And, and he's like, what's that suitcase about? And I was like,
well, so I can get out of here.
When you get scary, you get scary and I have to leave and I don't know how long I have to be gone for.

(11:41):
So I have to be prepared.
And he's like, that's ridiculous. You don't have to have a bug out bag.
That's what he called it. And I was like, Oh, that's cute. I'll use that.
And yeah, like, Oh, that's a good term.
And so yeah, that's sort of how I lived. And it was like, I'm in a constant state of fear.
Like I was sure he was going to kill me almost every day.

(12:03):
And then once he left in December of 23, it took me months and months to get
my nervous system back online and not in a state of fight or flight constantly.
I mean, yeah, it was, it was really hard.
And, you know, the, the, the, let's go back to back to the original subject

(12:23):
of our, our podcast that you wanted to do.
Yeah, so I don't go off on yes. No, no, you're fine.
So we met on the writing platform medium, I am new to the platform.
And Allison has been writing there for how long? When did you start writing?

(12:44):
September 23 is the first start of my rate. Okay, yeah. So pretty,
pretty well seasoned over there.
And what had happened was that I was recording an episode for this podcast for
the listeners timeframe.
That episode will have come out before our discussion. But in the episode,

(13:05):
it was a friend of mine that I had known from before I had gotten married.
So when I was single and she basically said,
do you remember this conversation we had where he had come back from something
from the military and wanted sex and you said no, and then it happened anyways.

(13:27):
And my friend said that was marital rape.
And she said, that's around when we stopped talking. I think at the time I could
not handle being told that.
And I had no memory of this happening or the conversation.
So when it was kind of brought back to my awareness, I did what I always do.

(13:47):
And I researched, I researched and wrote about it.
And so in my research, I started reading more about sexual coercion,
and realizing that is something that I experienced for a very, very, very long time.
I will link that article in the show notes.

(14:10):
So I commented on your article going, thank you for addressing that,
because I had addressed the topic of spousal rape in several of my articles,
because that was kind kind of completely,
I think, the most damaging part of the abuse that I went through.
But early on in our marriage, maybe we were married 22 years,

(14:34):
probably around like the.
Fifth year, seventh year, something like that. Like we had just constantly had
arguments over sex, like all the time.
Like I didn't want it enough and he wanted it all the time and he was constantly
pawing at me and, you know, we have little kids and I just, you know,
when little kids are on you all day, you just, I don't want it all the time.

(14:55):
And it was just impossible for me to say no.
And then we'd have these big arguments and yeah, you just, and especially like
when you're nursing, like just, ah, no.
And so anyway, there was no understanding.
There was no autonomy, even that time, you know, he just wanted it all the time.
And so we would constantly be fighting about it. And then over time,

(15:20):
the arguments would just get more and more escalated. Again, that word escalated.
And so at one point, I agreed to have sex every other day.
And it was It's because we had this argument one night.
He wanted sex and I said no. And I just decided that night, I am sticking to
it. I am allowed to say no. I'm going to say no.

(15:40):
Yeah. And I just said no, no. And he kind of wasn't going to take no for an answer.
And so I tried to just restarted this argument and the argument kept going on
and on. And I was exhausted.
And I think I had to work the next day and he had to work the next day.
And I just was like, I, you know, just stop, just stop. I'm going to bed.

(16:03):
And I tried to just go to sleep and ignore him and think, you know,
maybe if I'm just asleep, he will stop.
And so I go to bed, pull the covers over me, turn off the lights and,
you know, just don't respond at all.
And he's yelling at me and he's yelling at me and he's yelling at me.
And I mean we're in a little tiny like 1200 square
foot house like small yeah the kids are right there you know

(16:25):
and they're asleep but I'm sure they weren't and so
he's yelling at me yelling at me and then he's like and I'm
just ignoring him so then he gets mad and he flips the lights on and
yanks the covers off of me and it's like you're not sleeping if I'm not sleeping
we're not sleeping I'm not having it and so I get up and leave the room right
like I would do with a toddler and I get up and leave the room and I go into

(16:46):
the living room and he's following me he's He's yelling at me and he's,
you know, we're doing this.
We haven't had sex in who knows how long. I don't know. I don't remember like
the actual back and forth, you know, words, but I just remember it just going on and on.
So he kept me up just fighting all night long.
And I remember sitting on the couch, like across from him and,
and I just had my arms crossed and I just, and the sun was coming up and I'm just like, holy shit,

(17:11):
I am going to have to go to work and not have slept all night and not only not
slept, but like emotionally traumatized from all night.
Yeah. Just verbal abuse, spouting, just spewing hate at me.
And, you know, and I'm just, you know, had been sobbing all night.
So how do you, there's not enough makeup to fix that. No, puffy eyes.
So I just was like, you know, what am I going to do? And yeah,

(17:33):
and I'm just, you know, and I'm thinking about this and he leans over and I
had on like yoga pants and he leans over and grabs my pants,
like on either side of my hips and tries to yank them off of me.
And I screamed like screamed because I was shocked and you know like holy shit
and yeah I screamed loud and our son who was probably about seven at the time

(17:56):
comes running out of his bedroom down the hall and mommy mommy are you okay mm-hmm,
And so that was what, you know, I said, okay, I'm okay. I'm okay. Go back to bed.
And I just looked at him and just stuck my head. Like, I just can't believe that.
And I went to work that day and, you know, of course, didn't get anything accomplished

(18:20):
and thought about it all day and came home and said, look, what if we just have sex every other day?
You know, then you're not. Cause like, I would try to keep up with like,
Hey, we just had sex two days ago, you know? And he would be like,
no, we didn't. No, we didn't. And if I started marking it on a calendar,
then he got like, I read over that, you know, like, how dare you keep track of it? You know?

(18:42):
And, and, and it's like, but he kept telling me like, I hadn't had sex when
I know I just had sex with you. Like, don't tell me that that didn't happen.
Exactly. Anyway. So after that night, I just said, what if we do it every other
day, you know? And then maybe I can have some peace. I was like,
I was thinking that if I agreed to every other day, he's never more than 24 hours away from it.

(19:03):
So maybe you will stop badgering me all the time. And at least I'll have a day
in between where I can have the day off. Right.
Well, that didn't happen. No, he still forced me to say no on the days off.
Now, I would. I stuck to my guns like, you know what? If I'm having sex with
you every other day, I'm not going to have sex with you in between that.

(19:23):
I'm just not. And so I stuck to my guns on that. But I was never allowed to say no.
Yeah, that must have been such an exhausting way to live.
And the fact that really to protect yourself, because the way that he went at you.
Again, could have escalated into something much more violent that to protect

(19:45):
yourself, you had to agree to every other day. And then that still wasn't enough.
That must have been just so draining.
It was exhausting. And it was exhausting because, you know, I couldn't just
go through the motions and create my grocery list in my head and think about

(20:06):
what I'm going to be be doing the rest of my day after I'm done with this.
Like, no, I had to be engaged and pretend I liked it.
And, you know, there were, there were a lot of requirements, right?
Like if I didn't do all that and, you know, kind of like, you know,
be his own personal porn star, then I would, you know, then he wouldn't be able
to keep his erection and then they'd be mad and, you know, blame me for that for the rest of the day.

(20:29):
Yeah. And now I owe him because he couldn't keep it up. But now it's my job.
Yeah, find some kink that brings it back, you know, and, and it's,
you know, just it's tiresome.
And, you know, most often it would be in the morning, like he would want to do in the morning.
And actually, like, I used to hate sex in the morning, then I decided,

(20:50):
you know, it's like, it's easier than like, it's over faster.
Okay, let's do it in the morning, then rip the bandaid. off.
I wasn't able to just, yeah, rip the bandaid off, get it done.
And men tend to have a more.
Consistent erection in the morning. So that's just a fact. But anyway,

(21:10):
that's sort of how that started or it's definitely how that started.
I just knew that I needed to have peace in my house. And the only way to have
peace in my house was if he could have a predictable schedule.
Exactly. When when you did say no on your off days, you said that he was still
he was still badgering you.

(21:30):
What did that look like when you when you did say no? Because you you said you
stuck to your guns and you said no. So how did he behave?
He would get passive aggressive about it and pout, but I would consistently
point out that you are getting it tomorrow.
You're not going to be a dick about it today.

(21:50):
I'm not doing that. And somehow I managed to succeed there.
He still forced me to say no, which I think was part of his emotional,
like, as I, over the course of like,
you know, 15 years of this, I eventually realized like, he's using sex as emotional
regulation. That's what that is.

(22:12):
And I mean, it took me till like the end before I realized that because he'd
be in such a bad mood if he didn't get it every other day that he would just
be like, angrier and angrier and angrier.
And so So on the days off, like he tolerated a no, you know,
but he would act like he was mad for a minute, right?
And get whatever irritated feelings he had out.

(22:34):
Yeah. And then he'd go back to like being normal.
But on the days that were his days, quote, you know, he wouldn't tolerate a no.
So like sick, no, that didn't matter.
He was going to get his. Maybe I wasn't as engaged or, you know,
doing anything too entertaining.

(22:56):
But like at one point, I don't know, about around 2020, I had Lyme disease.
And it took like a year before I really realized that's what it was.
And once I started treatment, like, you know, when the bacteria start to die
off, it makes you really sick.
Yeah. And I was in bed for like three months. And I mean, my doctor's telling

(23:17):
them, like, yeah, she's sick, like, let her just be.
And I mean, he was irritated, because I wasn't getting out of bed and doing
my normal stuff, like the kids were having to manage feeding the animals and taking care of stuff.
And I just couldn't, like, I would have gotten up if I could have, but I couldn't.
And, you know, but still, he had sex with me every other day.

(23:38):
I mean, I don't even remember most of that.
Like, I just was sort of in and out of it. Like, you know, just wake up and
I guess we're having sex, you know, and like, just didn't matter.
Yeah, nothing mattered, except he got what he was due. It's almost like a sex addiction, isn't it?
That's what I thought, too. Right. And, you know, like most people with sex

(24:02):
addiction, they have problems with like porn and problems with cheating, you know.
And, you know, he would always say to me that the reason he didn't cheat was
because always, you know, available, giving it. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
And, and, you know, and I just, a lot of times, but, you know,
I'd almost rather you cheat, you know, like, that'd be better than me having

(24:25):
to do this every other day, you know, some peace.
And yeah, I get some peace, I get a break, you know, I'd actually like,
I try to explain to him so many times, like, I didn't mean this forever.
I didn't mean every other day forever, you know, like, I'm tired,
I would be sick, I I would be, you know, just exhausted from this thing or that or whatever.

(24:47):
And, you know, still, and then I hit menopause and I'm like,
I just, now it just hurts.
Like, I don't want this every other day. We have to renegotiate this.
Nope. Nope. You agreed to it. You agreed to it.
And, you know, if I said no on his day, on the day that, yeah.
And if I said no, he would take the exact same steps every time.

(25:08):
He would get passive aggressive. Like if I got out of bed because a kid needed
something or I needed to go do something,
he would like make me make up for it later on, you know, but he would be an
asshole like this increasingly awful level of anger until I gave in.
So that would look like, you know, just being passive aggressive,

(25:31):
like sighing all the time, you know, and stomping around and slamming cabinet
doors and, you know, just slamming doors, not talking to me.
You know, if I talk to him, what, you know, just clearly demonstrating anger,
then he would just not speak to me. Right.
And then he wouldn't do anything with the kids. Like there would be no help with the kids.

(25:52):
There would be no, you know, preplanned activities. And one's got a baseball
game here. Another one's got a baseball game there.
No, he's just not going to fucking help because I didn't give him and,
you know, what he thought was due.
And then he would just start a fight like there would be a fight over anything.
Right. It didn't matter what, you
know, my shirt's too low, my skirt's too short, like, which isn't true.

(26:12):
And, you know, and so there would be a lot of if he didn't get sex. And so he would just.
He would just increase and escalate and escalate until I finally gave in.
But like by the time I finally gave in, it would be like he would just be awful,
like so ugly and so mean and had said so many awful things to me that,

(26:35):
you know, I would have been just emotionally tormented and wiped out by then.
And then I still had to do it, right? Oh my gosh.
And so I decided that because it was so awful, like he was just so mean and so ugly.
That, you know, I just, I would give in early because I didn't want it to get

(26:55):
to that level where I'd still have to fuck the monster.
Yeah. That would be, and based on what you said, the way that he expected you to perform that,
I mean, you deserve like an Oscar nomination or something because I can't imagine
having to go jump through all of those hoops to
give him exactly what he wanted after being treated like that, too.

(27:20):
Yeah, that was the hardest part, I think.
You know, and I think that's why I decided to make that quote-unquote agreement
was because I didn't want the torment of all that.
And he really made it to where I didn't have options.
Like, he was going to make it really fucking awful if I didn't just give it.

(27:42):
So I just did. And it went on like that for years, like about 15.
And, you know, what I didn't know.
Was the law, you know? I mean, he would tell me that I couldn't say no.
And I don't know why, you know, Google was around for a long time.
Why I didn't Google that or ask questions about it. I don't know why you would think to though.

(28:06):
This is such a silent, like, kind of like a hidden topic where it's just,
there's not a lot of education on it.
I was told before, before I got married that I it was expected that I that I
like turned something down one night and.
It grabbed me on the staircase of the apartment that

(28:28):
we were going to be living in and said once we're married you can never do that
again basically like never say never say no and I was 19 years old at the time
so like no yeah I was 19 yeah yeah I didn't know but especially if that's It's like,
if that's what you've been used to in your marriage,

(28:50):
like, I feel like you'd have to be presented with that information some way
before you could be like, oh, maybe I should Google that more.
Kind of like what happened to me when I had the memory kind of returned to me
that I was like, oh, yeah, that is a thing.
But it's not something that you would sit to think I should Google this because

(29:12):
there's so much shame wrapped up. Yeah.
And, you know, as soon as you start Googling anything about sex,
you get stuck in some algorithm that keeps presenting, you know,
pornographic crap at you.
The way I realized it was rape was my therapist.
Like, I had been seeing this therapist since February of 23.

(29:35):
And it took till like November of 23 for her to say, you know,
that's rape. and I went I guess she said you had no consent you didn't.
Have an option to say no without, you know, escalating arguments and potential

(29:56):
violence and threats of violence.
So that's not consent.
And I said that to him that night.
I said, you know, that's rape. And he, no, no, it's not.
No, it's not. You know, but then I went and looked it up.
And according to, according to the Georgia law where I live.

(30:16):
It says Georgia law treats marital rape as a
serious crime and with the same severity as other types of rape
the law states that the per that a person commits
rape when they use force to penetrate a
victim which is what i thought rape was right or
the victim does not consent or the
force can be presented through verbal or physical threats intimidation or physical

(30:39):
harm so there it is yeah that is very black and white and And for any listeners
who may be questioning if they have experienced marital rape or wanting to know
what they could do about it,
I would encourage you to Google your state's law or wherever you might live in the world,
because it is a very serious- It is legal, illegal. Yeah, it is.

(31:03):
In all 50 states in the US. Yeah, it's a serious thing and it might be hard
to get attention for, but consent isn't something that comes from being forced.
Like Allison experienced where she could not say no because saying no made her
life an actual living hell, right?

(31:25):
And my kids, yeah, the whole house was tormented. It affected every aspect of
your daily life in that it's so wild to me that.
His mood would change so much like i know
i said it already but it's like a sex sex addiction excuse me

(31:46):
it was what that's what i thought where he needed that because
addicts of one form or
another need that rush or that chemical release or
whatever it is and it seems like the dopamine
yeah like that's that's what he was going after
and using it as a means to control you because
again if you didn't do what he wanted

(32:09):
he made your life awful so what are you gonna
do you're gonna find a way to do what he
wants so that you can have a peaceful day but yeah
that that's not consent and there's lots of
different aspects to consent that we've covered in
some other episodes but yeah yeah yeah that's exactly right and so you know

(32:30):
kind of i wanted to sort of hit on the ways that it made me feel during the
marriage because maybe people feel this way and don't recognize why or how,
but it just made me feel so helpless.
Like I couldn't renegotiate this agreement, quote unquote.

(32:51):
And so like, I couldn't get out of bed without doing that.
And so even if a kid's crying, even if, you know, a kid came and interrupted,
like knocked on the the door, mommy, mommy, then okay, well,
I'd get up without it being finished.
But then I would have to figure out when, like, maybe a kid's taking a nap.
Maybe, you know, I'd have to figure out some time to make that up.

(33:14):
And he would be just all day, like, when are we going to do this?
When are we going to do this? When are we going to do it tonight? You know, yeah, yeah.
And, you know, so it was kind of like, it was kind of like, I just owed him
kind of like, you know, you know,
he would be badgering me until I did it.
You know, and I felt hopeless because I tried to renegotiate so many times.

(33:37):
And he would say that I agreed to it. And, you know, he wouldn't reconsider.
And, you know, even if, you know, like I said, when I was sick and menopause,
like, it didn't matter to him.
And, you know, I just, I really was afraid.
I was afraid to say anything to anybody else. I mean, like, I just knew that

(33:58):
if I was going to start talking about the abuse on any level,
that I would then have to leave, right?
And I didn't have the money to leave. I couldn't afford to take my kids out
of the schools they were in.
And then, you know, I couldn't live in the same school district.
I would have to move them from schools, probably move in with my parents.
And, you know, I just didn't want to do that.

(34:21):
And the level of anger that he
would escalate to you know kind of left
me in fear of like real physical violence
like his rages would be very random
i i don't think they're random now looking back on it but he would go into like
terrifying violent rages that made me think like i can argue with the best of

(34:46):
them i would argue back with him and i think that was one factor that didn't
that didn't make me think i was in
an abusive marriage for so long was that I would always argue back and,
you know, as if I wasn't tolerating.
When you weren't standing your ground on things too.
So yeah, that would kind of blur the lines of realizing that you were still

(35:07):
being abused when you are actively defending yourself and laying boundaries,
even if they weren't necessarily respected.
They were not respected. But yeah, I think I thought that.
I thought that I wasn't kowtowing to him.
But when he would go into the very terrifying violent rages,

(35:27):
that's when I would kowtow.
It would just leave me shaking and pale and sweaty and clammy and nauseous and
just take me days to get past because it was just awful.
And those were the things that would keep me you
know compliant so i was afraid

(35:47):
that they would get worse and you know
end up in like true harm well based
on your day-to-day living it seems like the threat of that happening was a very
real possibility and something that i've said to my therapist before too is
that like i was never physically harmed but once you have that That fear,

(36:11):
it doesn't go away once you have that threat because you're aware that it could
happen and you're already experiencing the type of emotional abuse,
like the screaming at you, the rages, the rampages that make it really,
really obvious that he could continue to escalate.

(36:33):
Yeah, yeah. Like the only way to stop that escalation was either me leaving or calling the police.
Yeah, and you know even when I called the police They left and he said he would
go back downstairs and not talk to me for the rest of the night He was back
before they even got a driveway.
He was back in the bedroom yelling at me Yeah, and I'm like just you better, you know get out and so.

(36:57):
You know the way all this the way all this ended, you know I finally my my therapist,
you know when I first started going to her I was still living in the house with them and
And I had not filed for divorce yet, but she kept working with me on boundaries
and setting boundaries.
And, you know, you can say no, you can't. I was like, he is going to kill me.

(37:18):
I can't say no, he will kill me. And I was convinced he would.
And, but I finally just like, he, he really was trying to keep me from divorcing him.
And, you know, I was like, I'm going to file for divorce after like,
we had a huge argument over finances, big surprise.
And you know like I just was like trying to

(37:38):
get I was trying to finish a course where I would be able to do like
medical coding from home and and you know
I was two months into a four-month course and I was
just trying to make it through those last two months you know and asking him
to like let's open our books and see what's going on but he like went into a
psychotic rage screaming yelling blah blah blah it went on for two hours I was

(37:59):
just like oh my god and finally it ended with with, you know,
and you're 50 pounds overweight.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, fuck. Well, fuck you very much.
I'm sorry. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Good. I'm going to keep dropping that word.
Okay. It's okay. So that to me was like, that was it.
I was like, okay, no people can stay together and work things out when you can't

(38:24):
be honest about finances, when you can't just work together to figure something out.
He like, and now we're going off into personal, you know, like digs on looks. Yeah.
Like try living with the amount of stress that you lived under all that time
and tell me how much weight you've gained.
Like, Oh my God. Cortisol constantly through your veins. Yeah.

(38:47):
And cortisol has devastating effects on a body.
And one of the things that causes is weight gain. Surprise.
But I... Yeah, exactly. Like I dropped a ton away as soon as he was... Yeah. Yeah, actually.
Same. I... But that was the day I filed for divorce was the day that I ended
up 50 pounds overweight over just a financial discussion. And so...

(39:11):
Right around then, I said, I'm filing for divorce as soon as I can.
I can't live like this anymore.
And then somewhere around that, I finally, you know, was like,
I'm not going to continue having sex that I don't want to have. I'm not doing it.
And so I think I had sex with him one more time, and that was voluntarily.
But then just quit. quit

(39:34):
and you know i i think that
of course affected his mood which he
was very unstable and constantly trying to pick fights and constantly trying
to launder his negative emotions right he had to find other ways he didn't have
an outlet to regulate himself anymore yeah do you think this is just me being

(39:55):
curious you you don't have to like answer according to your comfort level level,
was there something going on with finances that were like,
was he in some sort of like debt or something that, well, I know you guys had debt together,
but it seems like finances was a really touchy subject for him on multiple times.
And I know that people with this sort of addictive personality-

(40:21):
End up getting in surprise money troubles
that try to get like hidden or covered up but
the the way he flipped out multiple times at
you over money this is again something that abusers do they use finances as
a means to control but i wonder if there was anything more did did any of that
ever come to light well yeah i mean so he had he had two credit cards and i

(40:47):
had two credit cards or he had like four, but I had two and,
and we didn't see each other's statements.
Right. And so I had debt on mine and he had the same amount of debt on his,
but he went through mine with like a fine tooth comb, like line by line item
and, you know, checking what you were spending.
And then, yeah, yes, exactly what I was spending on and, and,

(41:09):
you know, how I paid for it and whatever.
And then I said, okay, well, I want to do the same on yours.
And he would give me like one credit card statement. I'm like,
no, that doesn't explain $25,000.
Let me see what's on there. And he always deflected, always deflected.
So I have no idea what that was.
But you know, like, I think just, for the most part, grew up poor.

(41:30):
And at one point, you know, and this was one of these, like things that he tells
me at the very end, trying to get me to be sympathetic. To forgive him one more chance.
Yeah yeah oh yeah he did like textbook you
know oh but this awful thing happened to me in childhood and
so now you should stay with me and tolerate my abuse longer because of that

(41:52):
and you know apparently he was homeless at one point you know he left home as
a teenager and didn't go back and i think his dad was a narcissist his sister
for sure you know so it was it was rampant in the family.
And yeah, you had a shitty, awful childhood. But like, you don't get to act
out all that shit on me and get away with it. So I had, you know, I,

(42:17):
For a while, I was like, you know, I don't want to do that to the kid's dad and whatever.
But, like, my kids are 18 and 22. So, as soon as my son turned 18,
he didn't have to pay anything else and just wouldn't. Right?
So, now the kids are all, like, 18 and 22 doesn't mean your kids don't need
stuff. They actually need a lot more.
They're more expensive. College books. You know, they're in college. Yep. Yes, exactly.

(42:41):
And, you know, like, I just, he wasn't helping.
He was contributing nothing. thing and I went you know what like
you're useless to me like I've been in a lot of therapy I've
got EMDR therapy that I'm doing every week
and it's been a huge game changer like I am finally able to be like a normal
human because of that therapy so that that really has helped was it how did

(43:05):
how did you support yourself when you filed so I have some friends that are
just I have about half a dozen friends who are just,
you know, ride or die, would do anything for me.
And, you know, I've known him for 20 plus years.
And, you know, they really were like, you know, make sure this is what you want to do.

(43:27):
And, you know, I had talked to a court advocate several times before I did it.
And I finally just was like, you know what? I mean, you know,
my therapist kept going, is this what's going to bring you peace?
And I'm like, I don't know, but it's going to bring me justice.
I, you know, I feel like I deserve justice for being tormented for 15 years for his pleasure.

(43:49):
And he gets to just walk off into the sunset.
Pretend like it never happened. Yeah.
Act like it never happened. And then do this to another woman.
He's going to do this to another woman. They don't get help. They don't get better.
Like it's gonna happen to the next woman. And he's, you know I just feel like
you know if it was a stranger you know,

(44:11):
I would be, you know, supported 100% to go through that. I was just going to say that.
I actually, I feel like you should have been, like, I'm sure your therapist is wonderful.
I don't mean this in a negative way. But I feel like that's a situation to,
like, applaud your bravery for speaking up about it.
But it seems like, again, this is one of those topics that gets overlooked or

(44:35):
dismissed because you were married. But the marriage doesn't make it okay.
Exactly. The marriage doesn't make it okay.
And I mean, I read recently that there is something like a third of married
women are coerced or, you know, somehow manipulated into sex.

(44:59):
And that's a lot.
It is a lot. And so when I read your article, I was like, oh, good.
Somebody is talking about this. Why haven't I talked about it?
Well, I have within articles on other topics, but, you know,
I didn't specifically call it sexual coercion like you did. And I thought, you know what?
This is important. Like enough people don't know or hear it.

(45:22):
And I kind of feel like that I felt that way.
Like, I really thought a long time before I filed these charges.
And when I did, it was really, really good, like supportive and kind.
And, you know, even he was horrified by that story that I just told in the beginning

(45:42):
about the keeping me up all night and fighting and all of that.
And, you know, how it came about that I agreed, you know, also in quotes to that schedule.
And so once I heard him go, oh, my God, you know, I am so sorry that that happened to you.
I was like, oh, it is as bad as I thought, you know, like.

(46:06):
Yeah, yeah. And so I had tons of audio.
I had a confession from him that he sent me an email trying to,
after I'd filed for divorce, I was gone for two weeks with the kids, with my parents.
And he emailed me saying he was sorry about all the emotional abuse and manipulation,

(46:26):
and especially the sexual expectations.
He had no right to expect that out of me.
And so having a confession really helped
but then get this so so he had emailed me that
and I replied with a really long email like how are you going to stop all the
gaslighting how are you going to stop this I can't stop that anyway you know

(46:46):
even if you stop forcing me to have sex you're still got all these other problems
yes you're still doing harm in a thousand other ways so I had that email.
And he was asking me to reconsider, you know, that he was admitting his faults, right?
And asking me to reconsider after filing for divorce, or he was asking me to

(47:08):
pause it while he got therapy and stuff.
And so I had forwarded it to my therapist.
Well, I don't know, about six weeks later, I was talking to him.
He was asking me something, I don't know. And I was talking to him and I referenced that email.
I was like, go back and look at that email and then you'll know the answer to
that. And he goes, what email?

(47:28):
Wait, what? And I was like, oh shit. He didn't remember? Yeah.
I go, oh, he went in and deleted it. He broke into my email and deleted it. Stop it. Because, yeah.
That's also a charge you could file. I said that backwards.
For anyone listening, it is illegal for someone else to access your email,

(47:52):
even if they know your password, email and iCloud. That is illegal behavior.
That's mind-blowing. He broke into your email and deleted it so that you wouldn't
have that anymore. Oh, I'm so glad you had forwarded that already so that it
got saved. Oh, my God. Yeah. Reach.
He didn't know to delete the next day.

(48:17):
He didn't know that I had forwarded it to my therapist. Good for you.
Yeah. So, yeah, that's just the cherry on top of, you know.
But I had little listening devices thanks to the High Conflict Divorce Coach
saying, you can get like a pen that looks like it's a recording device,

(48:37):
but it looks like a pen and just click it to turn it on.
Or I had this tiny little, I mean, it was like an inch by an inch.
You know, like a little square that I just stuck in like.
You know, just on the counter under some paper
and it would come on for it
would record just when it heard voices yeah and then I

(48:57):
also used my phone but I recorded
like a lot because none of
that was like nobody believed me because I
first I had gaslighted everybody for him I
covered up for him for so long and then
also because you know he was really crafty at
his behind closed doors yeah but he did slip a

(49:19):
few times because nobody's perfect in 22 years so
there was a incident where oh yeah we
were on a family vacation and our kids were staying in
the hotel room so i'm not having sex with the kids in the hotel room
yeah happening and yeah they're just
like you can even like go in the bathroom the bathroom door had like
clear glass with just an opaque but like no

(49:40):
we're just not and it was like five days in it
was like our whole family like 30 of us cousins aunts uncles
everybody and one like by the time
the fifth day rolled around he was in like just
the freaking crazy psychotic rage and through
my son and i out of the hotel room we went
to stay with my cousin and yeah i'm just like sobbing falling all night long

(50:03):
i mean it shouldn't be surprising at this point but like to toss you yeah your
son out because you're on a family vacation sharing a room with your son and
he He can't have sex. That is...
Right, right. I was supposed to come up with some way to make that happen.
Some magic solution to make it okay for him. Yeah. That is...
Oh, my gosh. So yeah, so that would have been an experience where outside people

(50:28):
could catch a glimpse and say something's not right.
But... And so my cousin went with me to get my stuff because he was texting
me like all this ugly crap and, you know, saying, come get your stuff.
I'm throwing it out in the hallway.
And so he'd thrown like my luggage, my son's luggage all out in the hallway.
And so my cousin came up there with me. And then, of course,

(50:49):
he's like, what are you bringing a witness? And I'm like, yes, I'm bringing a witness.
Yes. And so she also is a witness to the police. And then another time I went
on a girl's trip with some friends for like three days.
And by the third day, he was like in a freaking psychotic rage.
So like my friend had to drive my car the whole way home because I was just sobbing, bawling.

(51:10):
And, you know, I had to go home to this monster. But that's where my kids were.
So you had to. I had to go. Yeah.
So those are two more witnesses who are testifying for me. So how did you broach the subject?
They should be bringing them. They should be. How did you broach the subject
with other family and friends?
Because I know that's something that a lot of people who have been abused struggle with.

(51:35):
Because like you said, we cover for them. A lot of the time we make up excuses.
We say, oh, we had a fight, but it's, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Or we just don't mention the way that things are at home.
And it can be really, really difficult for people who are leaving abusive relationships
or who are just trying to get support to leave to clue people in that their marriage,

(52:00):
their relationship isn't what the outside world thinks it is.
So how did you go about letting people know what your life was actually like?
I started with close friends who I knew would support me no matter what.
And so those close friends
were like you know you do what you

(52:22):
need to do but you know
we think you should leave you know i think you should leave and you know i i
had gotten so sick of the roller coaster was a constant you know up down up
down like it was just so chaotic i was like i've got to get off this roller
coaster i could feel my brain just changing like yes i felt brain damaged damaged.

(52:42):
I remember one particular day I was like standing at my chicken coop.
I live on a farm for the listeners, but I'm standing there one day after doing
like a bunch of farm work and going like, why is my brain so warped?
Like I can't think straight.
It was like trying to think through molasses. The brain fog. Yeah.
Molasses is a better term for it though. Because it is like,

(53:03):
you think of foggy, like hard to see, but it is sometimes it's like,
slugging through molasses trying to do regular day i call that trauma brain.
It was yes it's trauma brain exactly and and
i didn't understand why i couldn't think i was just like why can't i think straight
this is awful and then i realized like oh wait a minute this is abuse this is

(53:30):
just abuse right i had like already kind of gone down the rabbit hole of google
and emotional abuse and that kind of stuff.
And, you know, and then I was just like, okay, I have to be done with this.
Like, I can't think about this anymore.
I've got to just be done and make that decision.
And so I don't know, shortly after that, we had that huge argument where,

(53:51):
you know, he accused me of being 50 pounds overweight.
And I just told him I'm hiring a lawyer as soon as I can.
And then, but I had told two good friends as soon as I decided I was hiring a lawyer.
And they really encouraged me. And I had been telling my parents for a while,
like, I don't know, maybe like six months, I started telling them about these

(54:12):
rages and about just this terrifying,
like, y'all don't understand when I say rage, there needs to be a better word,
because it is it is the most terrifying, scary thing.
And I know you think like, I'm exaggerating. I'm not exaggerating.
Actually, I feel like you're probably at all exaggerating because
there's not a lot of words to describe that if

(54:34):
you haven't lived it i i am
kind of imagining have you seen the shining jack nicholson's
jack nicholson's performance but like escalated you know when he's like obviously
your husband never broke down a bathroom door with an axe but it's that level
of like unhinged insanity coming at you where it's It's like you were the Shelley

(54:56):
Duvall in that situation,
just trying to figure out when the next storm was going to break, you know?
Yeah. And trying to figure out how to not have it happen.
Like, I thought somehow for years that I could prevent that somehow, right?
Like, whatever behavior caused that, you know, explosive rage,

(55:16):
I thought, okay, well, I won't do that thing again, right?
Like, you know, it could have been over, you know, there's just a dirty house
or the house is messy or something, you know? Guess what?
Four people live in it and two dogs and, well, at the time, three.
It's going to be messy. I can't keep a perfect house. Constantly keeping you on your toes.

(55:37):
And I'm also going to go out on a limb and assume that he didn't actually help
out with any of those chores too.
So unrealistically high. Not really. I mean, he might help with laundry. Yeah.
And everyone. He might help out with laundry and outside stuff, but not.
Not no he was and you know
just even like dishes after i cooked he would always leave

(55:59):
some in the sink you know he might throw some in the dishwasher but
like did he expect things not not in any meaningful way did he expect things
in return when he did lend a hand like well i helped you well praise yeah i
helped you and and you might leave the dishwasher once but like you know and
And then I have to do it 25 times for to equal his wants, right?

(56:20):
Like, it's just, I don't know. There's another article I read about just the
fucked up math that comes up with narcissists. Yeah, exactly.
Because it's, it gets to be a level where like, this gets talked about a lot.
But I think that you're a great living example
of that is the way that you're kept in survival
mode because you are constant like

(56:43):
how do you have time to think that you need to leave the
relationship when you are always trying to
anticipate what he could be mad about but if
he's mad about every little thing you really never
know what's gonna set him off or like i'm
sure you got into this point too but i can remember knowing like
by the way that the door were opened and closed when

(57:07):
he got home from work what kind of mood he was in and if he was in a bad mood
to immediately start like making sure that the kids were calm or trying to like
anticipate things in advance and it is exhausting it is so draining to constantly
try to avert these outbursts.

(57:27):
Yeah and you and you can like suddenly your heart rate goes up i didn't even
like look at his face and would know, like, God, he's going to come in and find
something wrong, you know?
And like, back to just the question you asked about how I told my family and all of that.
Like, when I told my parents about it, like, they really kind of made excuses.

(57:50):
My mom died last year in August. Yeah.
And I had filed for divorce in June. And so she knew, but like she kept saying
stuff like, well, if it was so bad, why didn't you leave 10 years ago?
Oh, no. Because I had two little kids and couldn't afford to not like she loved
her grandchildren more than anything on earth.

(58:11):
I mean, absolutely loved them. So, I mean, like once I said that,
she was like, oh, I guess. Yeah, you couldn't just yank them out of their school.
You couldn't afford to just live there on your own.
No, I couldn't. You know, and what, you know, what was I, you know.
She would believe me, and then maybe a few weeks later, she'd be like,
it couldn't have been that bad.

(58:32):
It couldn't have been that bad. Why do you think I'm lying about this?
Why would I suddenly, in my 50s, just uproot my life and turn it upside down? Yeah.
For years, I had told myself, I'm going to leave when my youngest son was 18.
I couldn't fathom having to share custody.
I knew he would make the kids a weapon.
And I just couldn't fathom that.

(58:53):
So I just was sticking it out until the youngest was 18.
But I couldn't quite get there. So it unfortunately happened when he was a senior that we split.
But at least the second You mean it as long as you could, though.
I mean, it's impressive to make it that long, period.
Yeah. I mean, it's probably not good for me, but, you know, I don't know if

(59:16):
I did the kids any favors or not.
It's hard to know. I think both ways just are, there's no win there.
Yeah, I was going to say, I feel like that's a rock and hard place situation
because when there's kids involved, it is really hard.
If you stay that's they get
some stability that way but they also live with him yeah like that and then

(59:39):
if you leave again like you were saying the shared custody and things like that
it's really it's a lose-lose scenario either way but the thing that i'd like to point out is that.
When is that kind of stuff going to get turned on the abuser?
Instead of like, well, why did you stay so long?
Maybe. Maybe we should start asking, when will the abusers be held accountable

(01:00:07):
instead of asking the victims why?
Because the why is so complex. exactly
it's a and i know people don't mean that like
i i know that sometimes people are just trying to like make
it make sense to them and they don't always realize how hurtful it is as a victim
to be told well if it was that bad why didn't you just leave it's it's not that

(01:00:32):
easy not simple and you think like when they rule you with fear like that like
you really feel like Like, well,
he's going to kill me. Like, how am I getting out of this?
He is going to kill me. Like, I really thought he was going to kill me some way or another.
So, I mean, you know, I just. And having that fear.
There's no end. And seeing firsthand what domestic violence can look like in your job.

(01:00:57):
All of the statistics show that the most dangerous time for a person is when they're leaving.
So if you are already afraid that this man is going to kill you,
then like whether or not he laid a finger on you, the fear exists for a reason.
So then expecting you to just like somehow not have that fear anymore.

(01:01:20):
It's it takes a lot. It takes a lot to leave. And I think you were very brave.
Thank you very much.

(01:01:46):
So at this point, I have one brother who's really supportive.
Another brother who has his own marital issues and is not very supportive.
My dad is very supportive now because I've kind of forced him.
Look, I'm not lying. I'm tired of being questioned.
I didn't blow up my life for fun or drama or a need for attention.

(01:02:11):
This is what I had to do to get safe. And if you can't support me,
then you can just live with minimal contact, you know, because I just really can't do that.
And so he's come around quite a lot and really sort of now believes me,
but still doesn't want to hear anything about it, like specifics.
He didn't want to hear. I'm like, okay, fine.

(01:02:34):
Just don't question me about that. That's another kind of barrier in talking
about abuse and educating people about abuse because when that happens,
it's like, okay, well, but I can't explain to you why I am the way that I am if you don't know.

(01:02:55):
Yeah, if you're going to judge me for being so emotional and frayed and not
entirely logical right now. If we're going to sweep it all under the rug, I don't want to know.
That's private business. That's personal business.
But sweeping it all under the rug is what allows these patterns to continue.

(01:03:18):
You and I mean because it's like that in my life too like I there's lots of
people that I just don't talk about it with like I'm not as frank and open one-on-one
as I am on the internet right.
Usually you'd think that it would be the other way around but yeah it is it
makes people uncomfortable but I think having these conversations is so important

(01:03:43):
because Because we need to talk about it more.
We need to talk about the things that can happen within emotional abuse because it does escalate.
Like in your experience, yours was already horrific, but it escalates.
And with sexual coercion, that again, is it uncomfortable?
Yeah, it's a real uncomfortable to talk about. But we need to have these conversations

(01:04:09):
so that the next person who is maybe going through can hear them and say,
that's what's happening to me.
Because I didn't know a name for any of this stuff until well afterwards.
It was like looking back as I was healing and finding things like the label narcissistic abuse.
Does it apply to everyone? No, but it fits very well with what I experienced.

(01:04:34):
So to me, it's helpful. We can help. Yeah.
And stop the cycle. I think a lot of people have the experience of maybe like,
you know, that narcissistic abuse kind of umbrella that covers a lot of different
forms of abuse, like the emotional and verbal and psychological, whatever.

(01:04:55):
But a lot of people just are seeing one or two of those signs that,
you know, maybe the whole umbrella of, you know, different forms of abuse don't
apply to you, but some might.
And you don't even have to have a label for it, I think, is really important.
For the longest time, I was, you know, Googling and researching and reading

(01:05:18):
Quora and reading Medium and going, okay, is he a narcissist?
Is he? Because for some reason in my brain, it was saying, like,
if he is that, that means he's never going to get better. He's never going to change.
And he is, you know, he is what he is, like no amount of therapy is going to help.
And, and I was kind of using that to inform my decision to leave or file for divorce.

(01:05:41):
And then I was like, wait, wait, that doesn't actually matter if he fits this
description or not, which, you know, actually he fits all the description,
but it doesn't, I don't need that label. Like he isn't changing.
He's had time to change. He has proven all by himself that he's not going to.
Label or no, his actions speak for themselves. Yeah.

(01:06:05):
And I think people need to hear that. Like, don't, don't look for the label.
I mean, maybe this label describes that person, or maybe some of the traits
fit your situation, but leave if you're in that situation and not wait for a diagnosis.
They're not going to change. It's hard to imagine, like you get that sunken

(01:06:27):
cost fallacy in your head, like, God, I've put in like 22 years,
you know, like, and there were good times, sometimes we're good.
And, you know, So that's the thing that keeps you staying because if they weren't.
If they can be good sometimes. If they were just all bad, nobody would stay.
Yeah, well, yeah, exactly.
If they were good sometimes, then maybe, like in your situation,

(01:06:49):
if you can prevent him from being upset about something, then maybe there'll be more good times.
If you have the sex schedule, then maybe he'll be less angry on the other days. It's, yeah.
And again, to your point, there's the sunken cost thing. I was just going to
say, no matter how much time it's been, and I actually, I think it's brave.

(01:07:12):
I was married for 16 years.
So like, I think it's brave, even though it has been that long,
because I've heard stories from...
Women who stayed married because nobody else would want them.
And I've been married this long.
And there's so much life to live outside of your marriage, even if it's been

(01:07:35):
22 years, 16 years, you know, there is, there is life waiting for you on the other side.
Yeah. And any amount of no stress, like once I finally got my nervous system
regulated to not be terrified all the time and not be like a basket case all the time.
It was like, that's what peace is. I finally have that.

(01:07:58):
So to finally have peace is like, it is worth all the pain and the drama to get out of it.
It's worth all the work and the money that divorces cost.
You know, it's still worth it. It is worth it. Do you want to tell us a little
bit about what your healing journey has been like?
Like, I know you've mentioned that you're doing therapy, but I'd love it if

(01:08:22):
you could talk a little bit about what that healing journey was like for you,
especially now that you have been able to find that peace.
Yeah yeah so i i
i approach most things in life with like
full force and so once
he was gone and i finally wasn't facing daily assaults you know verbal emotional

(01:08:47):
whatever anymore i just made it my mission to go full-time healing and so i
have been like i have a friend that's got like she
started me first in this yoga group, like this group of like 10 women who are
practicing yoga together. And we just.
Do, you know, like there's a lady named Adrian on, I can't remember her last

(01:09:11):
name, but she's on YouTube and yoga with Adrian is awesome.
She has a million different like 30 day yoga journeys. So we've been doing that.
And so this group, we just text each other when we've done our yoga for the
day and we all do the same one.
So, you know, on a core day we can vent and go, Oh my God. And whatever it is.
Right. But like yoga allowed me, cause I was so ruminating and like so badly,

(01:09:35):
I was just completely consumed with, you know, mental arguments against a phantom
that isn't there anymore, right?
And so I would just continue to ruminate all of the past in my head over and
over. And I think that's such a hard thing to get past.
I've talked to other, you know, survivors, same thing, like they're just the
rumination is the thing that keeps them stuck.

(01:09:55):
And so I, yoga was like the first thing that got me out of my head and into
my body for at least that 30 minutes every day. So I started that.
I also started like tapping.
EFT, I think is what they call it. But that really helped kind of release emotions
and stuff. So I would do yoga and then I would do like a 10-minute tapping thing.

(01:10:16):
YouTube's full of those too. And then, you know, therapy. I had a CBT therapist, talk therapy.
And then my friend who's a physician, she was like, you've got to do EMDR.
Like that is the, you know, best trauma recovery out there.
And it took me a while because like I was so mired
in my rumination and just not able

(01:10:39):
to really like do much self-care I
mean I still had my son in high school that I was you know doing that stuff
with him but like for me I I just couldn't do stuff for myself and so it took
me probably till May so from January like five months to to really go okay I
need EMDR and do that and so in In between,

(01:11:00):
I have lots of friends that I could rotate between that would listen to me.
And, you know, like I had cut him off. So I had no real contact.
The only contact I have with my ex was just email.
And so pretty much, you know, just related to kid and that was it.
But I wouldn't like that breaking of the trauma bond causes like.

(01:11:24):
I don't know what kind of chemical imbalance in your brain, but that took a
minute to really get my thoughts back to normal.
But I mean I cried all the time and
luckily like you know they always tell you get out in nature
and all of that and my animals I
grew up riding horses and loved horses and he moved
me like from the city to a farm because

(01:11:46):
well he didn't move me I wanted to move but like I
wanted horses and that kind of promise of that sort of.
Like led me to isolation and
so I left a lot of my support system and that
was hard and so then he kind of used the
horses to abuse me like constantly demanding like you
have to sell the horses like right now right now sell them like no I'm

(01:12:09):
not it takes a minute to free home horses and like no
I wasn't going to let him use that against me
so luckily I was able to buy
him out of the property and you know his
equity out and keep it I mean I'm not
going to keep it forever because it is like crazy expensive and
I do need to you know to like sell it but for

(01:12:30):
now it's been a huge part of my healing process and
not allowing him to use his horses against
me like having them has been just like hugely claiming that for yourself yeah
yeah and they really they really they know your emotions and they know when
you're upset and like i said my mom died in the middle of all that so it was

(01:12:52):
like just trauma on trauma and then in In May.
We had to put my 13-year-old golden retriever down, which was like a third assault on my brain.
And so that was kind of the thing that made me go, okay, I need to find an EMDR
therapist and just start that.
And it was such a game changer. It immediately helps you process the trauma

(01:13:15):
that, like how you were saying, you sweep things under the rug and suppress
emotions and things like that.
Well, really all of that sexual, you know, marital rape, whatever was happening,
like all got pushed under the rug.
Like I just suppressed every bit of emotion related to that. And so I'm digging that.

(01:13:39):
I did the major traumatic stuff, like the rages, the gaslighting,
address that kind of stuff.
The anger that I felt, the anger I felt turned out to be a lot of betrayal.
And, you know, even though, like, technically, I don't think he cheated on me.
He claims he never cheated on me. I never thought he was cheating on me.
But, you know, like, I thought betrayal meant cheating. Yeah.

(01:14:02):
And really betrayal meant...
Meant like, like my safety, my trust that I had put into this other person and
shared my entire existence with was, you know, betraying me by abusing me.
And that's really what my anger was about was about betrayal.
So that's sort of an interesting thing that I didn't know until I was doing this therapy.

(01:14:26):
So, you know, it's, it's helping me. It's hard because you've got to kind of
dig for the emotion, identify the emotion, and then process it.
But you process it by like watching a light bar and going left to right while
you're holding onto that emotion.
Maybe it's one particular instance that you're thinking about.
And as you're thinking about it and reliving it, and it's often like you're

(01:14:49):
feeling like it was happening just now, you know, it's not been processed.
But it's what your brain does when you're in deep sleep, your
eyes go back and forth and so as you're
watching this light bar and holding on to this emotion they you can
gradually feel it kind of like dissipate and then
just go away and then you're able to talk about it like me being able to talk

(01:15:09):
about this today is because of that therapy and if i have not done that i would
be sobbing crying all the way through it like you'd be like well that was a
waste because i wouldn't really be able to i'd be just a babbling idiot and
i mean maybe not an idiot,
but just like, it'd be hard to understand me. I wouldn't really be making sense about it.

(01:15:29):
Kind of like a lot of people who get out of abusive relationships do.
You can't, you often find it's so hard to explain to people.
And yeah, and it is a lot of work to process and let go of those things. So that's amazing.
I haven't actually tried EDMR yet. I have thought about it.
I feel like that's like a faster pace to what I've kind of been doing on my

(01:15:53):
own, which just like have the memory re-examine the memory process my feelings
about it identify how I feel about it and then I kind of
And then I go, all right, I understand this intellectually. I understand this emotionally.
I see this for what it is, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But I actually am really interested in trying it out. If you're stuck on things, it's totally worth it.

(01:16:17):
And I hope at least one person is listening that is stuck on something and can find an EMDR therapist.
It is worth every minute you spend in there because as soon as you address it
and process it, it gets stored in a different part of the brain.
So the memories that are like the really traumatic ones, the bad ones,
the bad fights, like the one I talked about where my son came running out of his room,

(01:16:41):
like that processing that was super hard because I could feel it.
I knew where I was sitting. I could see the room.
I could see the colors. I knew what I was wearing. I knew what he was wearing.
So like it was all right there.
And it was kind of this like choking feeling in my chest.
Like I just could, as soon as I thought about that situation.

(01:17:04):
I would like my respirations would increase. My heart rate would increase.
I would feel it. And so when you haven't processed a memory,
it is stored in a different part of the brain.
So you keep reliving that. and then when you
process it it's stored more in it
in a separate part of the brain where it's more
of a black and white picture like you can remember

(01:17:27):
it and yeah that was awful and yeah and you could hear i still got choked up
about it because when i talk about my son i don't know if i'll ever be able
to process that right you know but it's it's stored in a different part of the
memory and so So like it doesn't bring up all of like the physical sensations with it.
It's a real game changer as far as like being able to think straight and move

(01:17:50):
forward and not get stuck on the really hard stuff. Yeah, that sounds incredible.
I'm going to look into that myself. Yeah.
Yeah, but also hypnosis was a huge game changer for me.
I started doing hypnosis before he even left because like I would be so anxious
when he got home There's a guy named joseph cluff who has and I don't make money

(01:18:14):
from saying his name or Promoting his app or anything,
but like it really did change my Life for a long time like you he's got a bunch
of different hypnosis out there He's got an app that you can get for free and
he also has a bunch of podcasts on it it.
So he's got daytime hypnosis and nighttime hypnosis.
And I still use his nighttime hypnosis to sleep every night.

(01:18:37):
I mean, it is, it is great.
There's a bunch of different topics. When you're leaving a long-term marriage
like this, you're grieving.
You're grieving the loss of the person who you thought you loved.
That person really didn't exist. That was all just a play act, I guess.
You're grieving what you thought you were going to have in your future.

(01:19:00):
There's a lot of grief around losing a marriage. Even when people think you
should be happy that you got out of an abusive relationship, relationship.
And, you know, but that's not how it feels. You feel like devastated and sad
and like a failure and like, what happened?
Why didn't I see, you know, there's so many feelings of grief around it.
So their grief hypnosis helped me so much, really process that.

(01:19:25):
And it also helped me with my mom's death and that grief.
So, you know, the hypnosis helped a lot.
And it kind of helps you get past certain feelings, like you can go in there
and say, I want to deal with grief, or I want to deal with procrastination,
or I want to deal with, you know, overeating, or I want to deal with whatever
it is, like, there's a million different hypnosis on there. And there's a bunch

(01:19:49):
of different people that do it too.
But you don't have to actually have like a practitioner that you go to, to really benefit.
That's interesting. And I actually bet that a lot of people would like to know
that, especially about the app, because one of the things that comes along with
trauma and emotional abuse is it's hard to trust people.
So I know that I've heard from a few different people say that they'd love to

(01:20:13):
try hypnosis, but they're a little
bit afraid to do it with another person because what if, what if they're.
All the what ifs that can come, that can come in your mind. Yeah.
So that app sounds fascinating and really, really helpful, especially if it's
helping you to sleep at night too.

(01:20:34):
Yeah, I mean, I really like did not want to start taking meds to sleep.
And sleep is so important.
Because, you know, like I said, I was trying to think through molasses,
like having no sleep on top of that is like impossible.
So there's there's several sleep hypnosis apps and podcasts out there.
But this guy does like if you're working on a specific thing,

(01:20:57):
like grief or anxiety, so you want to really help your anxiety.
So he'll have like a daytime one.
And he has a lot of them. He's got a podcast that goes along with it.
So like say you are addressing anxiety, you can listen to his podcast and he'll
explain how, you know, before you go into listening to the hypnosis,
you want to really consciously talk to yourself about how you're ready to address

(01:21:22):
this anxiety problem you're having.
And you really want to, like, it's time to make this change in your life and
you're committed and you're going to do it.
And what he explains in a lot of his podcasts is how, like, if you're going
to work on something with hypnosis, use the same topic, do the same topic for like 30 days straight.
So then you're getting like an anxiety one during the day, which it's like a nap.

(01:21:44):
I mean, you just sit down and, you know, find a calm place and you just like,
I put on my AirPods and just listen.
And the more you do it, the more easily you can go through the countdown into the hypnosis state.
And then it's like 30 minutes, he talks you through just, you know,
your subconscious is the part of your brain that will always want to do the

(01:22:07):
safest thing for you, what makes you safe.
And so anxiety for me was, you know, God, my husband's coming home,
what am I going to do? Okay, what's he going to be mad about today?
And I'd be so anxious about like, what can I do in the next hour before he gets
home to, you know, make sure he's not mad?
Like, what's he going to be mad at? And, you know, constantly trying to predict.
And so that anxiety was keeping me safe because that's what my subconscious

(01:22:30):
was thinking is keeping me safe, right?
And so even though I might consciously say, I don't want to do that anymore.
He's gone. I don't have to do that anymore. My subconscious is still,
that is what it thinks is keeping me safe. So it's going to keep doing it.
So you need a way, a lot of times, like meditation does the same kind of thing.

(01:22:52):
But you need a way to. It's your subconscious. subconscious to
address your subconscious right and so
you work on it like do a daytime hypnosis it's maybe
30 minutes and then do it at night and and
it really like it helped me so much i
still use it every night i get the best sleep ever fascinating yeah i'm gonna
i'm gonna try the sleep one because i don't sleep very well but oh i totally

(01:23:17):
yeah i think i'm gonna try i think i'm gonna try both of those things actually
i'm i'm very excited about i love i practice something called shadow work,
which again is addressing your subconscious.
And I do that with tarot cards.
So it's very similar to the hypnosis aspect where if I'm very anxious about
something, and I'm noticing the pattern, I will sit down with my tarot cards

(01:23:40):
and I'll shuffle and I'll say, why?
Like, what is the root cause? What is happening that is.
Amplifying this anxiety and it'll usually pinpoint for
me exactly what the issue is but
it's just it's presented in a way that i'm like
okay i understand that now so i just i think it's so interesting how these different

(01:24:04):
healing practices kind of all flow together and because you were talking as
soon as you started talking about the subconscious i was like okay that's like audio shadow work.
Yeah, yeah, it's just like that.
And it just gets you to bypass your conscious brain for a little bit.
And so you can message your subconscious, like it's time to let this go.

(01:24:30):
And, you know, once I once I heard him explain why it works,
because like, I never could turn off my monkey brain long enough to really meditate.
And I tried really hard. And then I was It's like, I'm just frustrated and feeling
bad about myself that I can't get there with meditation.
So hypnosis is kind of like a, like a, you know, sort of super highway to that. Yeah.

(01:24:53):
It bypasses. That is exciting. I'm definitely going to look into that more.
Is there, I know I've kept you here for a while.
So before I let you go, is there any bit of advice that you would like to give
someone who is maybe experiencing sexual coercion or looking to relieve an abusive relationship?

(01:25:16):
Yeah. Oh, God, so much. Let's see if I can just do it. You know, I think...
You're going to have to come up with some courage and what you're living in
an abusive relationship is regular doses of courage.
Every day takes courage to get through. You don't realize that's what you're

(01:25:40):
doing in it, but you think like, it's going to be so scary to leave because
it's scary to stay, right?
Like they're going to be so angry. They're going to hurt me.
They're going to kill me. but you if you can just
force yourself you know use
the courage that it's taken to exist in that relationship

(01:26:00):
all this time and just take the
leap because really you have the power i didn't realize i had the power the
whole time but i had the power once i just said i'm doing it what can he do
i you can kill me but people are gonna know it's you you're not getting away
with it like if i mean That was part of the writing part and publishing that.

(01:26:22):
You can kill me, but people are coming straight to you if I show up dead.
And I finally just got the courage.
I think it got scarier to stay rather than to leave because these things always escalate.
And usually that's probably the.
Tipping point for most people is it's scarier to stay. I have to leave.

(01:26:47):
But there's resources. There's, you know, I, I reached out to my domestic violence
shelter in my county, you know, so I didn't feel like I should use their resources
because they were really low on resources.
But I just, I would call every once in a while to see, do you have room available?
Do you have, you know, they've, they actually had a shelter or like a,

(01:27:11):
like a refuge set up for my horses if I needed to move them very quickly.
So that was helpful but I think it's just you know it's taking you courage to stay there.
You know, just have faith in yourself and drum up the courage to get out.
And if he's violent, go to a shelter. They will protect you.

(01:27:33):
Don't be afraid to call 911. For a long time, like I said, I had to live with him.
I had 911 just on my keypad on my phone. Like I would have the dial pad up with 911.
So you come near me and I would leave it sitting right there next to me.
Like, go ahead. Go ahead and start something. Go ahead and get scary.
And I'm calling 911. And so always the threat of the police are going to come

(01:27:56):
is kind of what kept him, I think, under control, too. I think that's great advice.
It does take courage to stay in an abusive relationship, and it takes a lot of courage to leave.
And I think people sometimes mistake courage as not experiencing fear,
but it is very courageous to do something while you're terrified.

(01:28:18):
Yeah, that is the courage. Exactly. That is the courage. You can be afraid and take those steps.
So thank you so much. I'm going to link your Medium page in the show notes.
But do you have a website or anything else that you'd like people to be aware of?

(01:28:39):
No, no, just what I read on Medium. You know what? People need to understand
that there is legal avenues that you can take.
And so that's why I mentioned it. And I don't think it's going to harm anything by me mentioning it.
Well, it's on the record now that, I mean, like with the court system that it's happening.
So if anything, it just cements the fact that it's happening.

(01:29:00):
Good luck with all of that. I hope it's... I will write again as soon as as
soon as I like hear the next step from yeah the yeah then I'll start writing
again but thank you I appreciate you having me I'm glad to be able to share
my story and maybe if I can help one person that is the goal.

(01:29:22):
Thank you for listening to what lies buried if you have a story you'd like to
share please check Check the episode description for a sign-up link.
And for those of you who want to share but don't want to come on the show, feel free to write in.
Your story will be told in future Listener Story Minisodes.
If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast.

(01:29:46):
Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and create a supportive community.
If you or someone you know is experiencing emotional abuse, please reach out.
You deserve to be heard, believed, and supported.
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