Giants Huddle | Joe Marino

John Schmeelk sits down with Joe Marino from the Draft Network to discuss the draft class after the combine, which players helped their draft stock, and the Giants biggest needs. SUBSCRIBE NOW: Apple | Spotify | Google | Stitcher | iHeartRadio :00 - Wide Receivers in the draft 12:01 - Tight Ends 22:06 - RBs and Offensive Line 27:04 - Defensive Line 34:14 - Middle Linebackers  37:07 - Cornerbacks

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time to get inside the Giants huddle on giants
dot Com. Here we go, Here we go on the
Giants Mobile. Let him in Row, Let's go, part of
the Giants podcast Network. Welcome to another edition of the
Giants Little Podcast. I'm John Schmalcot. All brought to you
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Visit PSEG dot com slash Giants for discounts, rebates and

(00:20):
home energy assessments. In this week's spotlight from the Draft Network.
Front of the program, he's Joe Marino. Joe, what's going on? Then? Hey, John,
thanks for having me on. Hope you're doing well, and
uh tell tell the folks about your podcast too. Yeah,
I appreciate that. Draft Dudes is the podcast we talked
draft all year long, roster construction, we focus a lot
on that, and obviously the Giants are a fun team

(00:42):
for us because of a new regime and a lot
of draft capital and real shifting identity, so we love
talking about that and of course locked on Bills daily
podcasts and the Buffalo Bills. All right, guys, make sure
you go check those out. Um, I know a lot
of stuff's happening with free agency, franchise tags. Daniel Jones say,
Quon Barkley, we're gonna focus on the Combine on this podcast.
Would do a different huddle later in the week where

(01:04):
we're gonna cover all that stuff, but in terms of
the Giants and the free agency needs and what they're
doing salary cap wise coming up next week, so make
sure they stay tuned for that. And if you missed it,
go check out all the content we had from the
NFL Combine three episode four episodes rather a Big Blue
Kickoff Live seven Giant Huddle podcast over twenty five guests.
Daniel Jeremiah, Charles Davis go down the list. A lot

(01:24):
of good guests out there to make sure you go
find those again on the Giant Shuttle podcast or on
Big Blue Kickoff Live. All right, Joe and folks, By
the way, we're gonna do kind of a Giant centric
review of the combine here. If you're looking for a
more general thing, go find Draft Season our Draft podcast
me and Tony Pauline that posted on Monday. We kind
of go down everything to happen every position at the combine.

(01:44):
We're gonna kind of zero in here on the Giant
specifically with Joe. All right, so Joe, let's start here
with the wide receivers. Giant fans looking for weapons. How,
if at all, do you think would happened at the
wide receiver position over the weekend might change what that
top of the board looks like for a lot of teams. Yeah,
the wide receiver position is very interesting. When he comes

(02:05):
to this draft and you got a lot of smaller receivers,
and you got a lot of questions about the ones
you'd actually pick in the first round. I feel like
the one guy that if you made me say I
think this is gonna be a first round receiver, it's
probably Jackson Smith and Jig out of Ohio State. For
as much hype is Chris Olave and Garrett Wilson had
this past year there coming out of Ohio State, that

(02:27):
guy outproduced him on the same team two years ago.
He just was hurt this past year. He get she
has to see him, but look good at the combine.
He feels like the guy that's gonna go in the
first round. Meanwhile, Jordan Addison out of USC really liked
the player, but came in small, tested a bit slow.
You have some questions there, you know, Quentin Johnson. The
TC receivers, the bigger bodied guy don't have a forty

(02:48):
on him obviously did some good things the combine still,
but I think we came away with more questions about
the value of receivers than anything. And what's interesting about
the wide receiver position in general is the NFL has
been so good at finding impact players outside of the
first round at wide receiver. Think about some of the
best guys in the league, whether that's a Deebo Samuel

(03:09):
or a DK metcalf for an a J Brown, Terry McLaurin.
I could go on and on about these players that
weren't first round picks that the NFL has been able
to find on Day two and really find some value there.
And I wonder, if you're looking for a receiver if
the better option is to wait and see if you
could take advantage of some of those guys that are
gon inevitably be there on Day to even look at

(03:30):
George Pickens last year, guys like that. The list really
does go on and on. Yeah, and let's touch on
both those tiers of guys. You mentioned the guys at
the top first. Now the Giants have Wando Robinson, who've
used a second round pick on last year. Now he
tores ACL but I still think the expectation is hoping
to be back, and I think both of us would
agree that he's should be considered pretty much a slot

(03:50):
only guy, right, So, keeping that in mind, Joe based
on what we saw athletically from the guys, and I agree.
I thought even though Smith and jib had didn't run
a forty yard dashes, three code and short trottle was immaculate.
He looked great and drills good hands. We know he
can get open. Do you think he's a slot only
guy who mixes and matches of what the Giants already
have to maximize that value of the receiver in the

(04:12):
first round if they decide to go in that direction.
I think that's a that's a good question in which Jackson,
Smith and Jigba. That's the thing is, we don't really
know how explosive he is in terms of speed vertically.
I have my concerns there, although he's quicker than fast,
and we certainly validated that at the combine, but the

(04:32):
production really did come from the slot at ohiose state, right,
and I think that it opens up some questions about
being able to win outside, and really that becomes a
heavyweight fight out there where you have to deal with
contact at the line of scrimmage. You don't have that
two way go from the slot, and it's just a
different ball game out there. Now where I want to
go with this, and somewhat cautiously, is Justin Jefferson, because

(04:54):
that was the big thing with him coming out on
LESU was well, all this production came from the slot.
Can he be a big boy and win out? Well,
I think we've learned, so I don't want to fall
into those same pitfalls and assume that because JSN hasn't
really been tasked with winning on the line of scrimmage,
that he can't, right. I think that the way that
the NFL was played now this is kind of a

(05:14):
concern that we got to be careful not to buy
too much into or else you're gonna label Justin Jefferson
and a slot only and you're gonna pick Jalen reagor
in front of him. So I think you got to
be careful there. But I do think when you look
at through the lens of the Giants, you know, certainly
Isaiah Hodgens a player that you would anticipate is back
in a big part of that offense with the flashes
that he showed across ten games this past season. Wandale

(05:35):
Robinson more of a slot only. So I think what
you're looking for is a guy that has more do
everything that gives you some interchangeability. You can play him
in this slot, you can play him out wide, can
get vertical, can uncover quickly, And I think that's that's
kind of the skill set that it feels like this
Giant's receiver corps is missing if you're counting on Hodgens
and Robinson to kind of be back as your ex

(05:56):
receiver in your slot guy. Now, I will say this,
I don't think Sith and Jagbo would have run Jefferson's
time in the forty either when he run it. So
I agree with you that's the receiver that they need.
Does that wide receiver exist in this draft? Joe? That's tough,
and I think my hesitation there should tell you some
things there. Right, even if you go to a Quentin Johnson,

(06:17):
you know what type of quick separation skills does he have? Right,
It's gonna be a big difference coming from the Big
twelve and be getting press coverage as opposed to in
the NFC East, right, So there's some translatability concerns that
you can have there. And I don't know that there's
a slam dunk. Okay, this is a do everything guy
because the more you get into the class, a lot

(06:37):
of these guys are smaller, right, and so you have
questions about whether or not they can be a consistent
guy that you know can get that leverage at the
catch point and win. Like it's just a really unique
year for receivers where it feels like the better thing
is if you want more than niche player, do you
want the slot only, do you want the big bodied guy.
The teams that are looking for, hey, do everything player,
you know you're gonna you're gonna find yourself with some

(06:59):
challenges here. And I'm not saying that the player doesn't exist,
but to me, it's more okay, you really have to
get into it. You need to learn about what they
were asked to do in college and the sight adjustments
in the routes right to get a better feel about
that translatability. And of course the Giants and the rest
of the NFL had a big opportunity and at the
combine to get to ask those questions to get to
meet with these players. Yeah, for giant fanz, I might

(07:21):
not be familiar to Zay Flowers is gonna be a
really good receiver five nine, Tankdale is gonna be really
good wide receiver five eight. Josh Downen's gonna be really
good wide receiver five to nine. Even, you know a
guy like Charlie Jones, who I love. He's only five
eleven one seventy five, right, you know urban mems. Can
he play outside? Jane one Hyatt told teams over the weekend.
I'm told that he wants to play in the slot,
which is crazy for a guy that runs a four

(07:43):
four forty. So you know Michael Wilson, right, he's a
late round pick with injury. He's a little bit bigger, said,
you're tilman. Maybe again, they both ran the four fives,
but at least they have to size the play outside.
You talked about waiting, right, maybe this is the year
you wait to find a guy on Day two early
day three, Joe, who are some of the guys that
you might like in that rain that could maybe fill

(08:03):
the type of role we're talking about. Yeah, a player
that immediately comes to mind for me is Pouka Nakula
out of BYU. We didn't get any testing from him,
But as far as a guy that I think is interchangeable,
route running, physicality, has some juice about him, I think
he fits that criteria. I love like Rashi Rice, I
think that might be a name that's we're forgetting a

(08:25):
little bit in this wide receiver class out of SMU.
Really productive couple of seasons. SMU obviously put some good
players into the league at that position, whether it's Emmanuel
Sanders or Cole Beasley. Recently, Danny Gray looks like he
could be a fine there. But he's a guy that
I think has shown to be able to win outside
and in the slot. He's been able to get down
the field, really competitive guy at the catch point. Maybe

(08:47):
not super twitched up, but I mean some of the
best receivers in the NFL aren't necessarily great testers when
you think about it, Davante Adams or a Steph Diggs
or a Cooper Cup right, Like, you don't have to
run four, three and two to be a good receiver
in the NFL. In fact, most of the time that's
not the case. Um And so I think Rashid Rice
also kind of fits that that area as well. Marvin

(09:09):
Mims um a player. He's five eleven, one eighty three,
so he's not super you know, rocked up in terms
of size, but you know, maybe he can add a
little bit of weight and you can feel better about
him as a as a more complete player. And there's
there's some you know, with Marvin Mims. I don't want
to get too crazy here, but there's some John Dotson
to his game where we saw him at Penn State
with just how good he is the catchpoint but also

(09:31):
has some explosiveness to go with it. His We got
a limited sample size of testing for him. He ran
into four threes six nine three cone almost a forty
inch vert, So I think there's a lot to like
from him out of Oklahoma. Yeah, anyone else had kind
of jumped out of you or surprised you testing wise
at the combine where based on your tape study you're like, wow,
I did not expect that good or bed are you

(09:53):
opening this up to all receiver all positions? Are we
sticking at receiver. Let's stick receiver for now, all right?
Because that took, that took. I was going to go
into Jack Campbell a little bit there. Oh we'll get there. Yeah,
I'm sure, I'm sure we will. Um. Maybe a guy
that surprised me a little bit was Xavier Hutchinson out
of Iowa State, who might also kind of fit this

(10:13):
description with him. The explosiven was was in question and
we got a four five three forty yard dash. We
didn't get a great vertical or abroad, but some of
those agility scores for him, in particularly the three comb
being a six nine one is definitely a test that
stood out to me and suggests that you know he's
got that ability to get in and out of brakes,

(10:34):
and you feel better about that separation ability translating to
the next level. So that's probably the guy that, at
least from a positive perspective, really gave me something that
I didn't fully expect. Yeah, I don't think you separated
all that well and mobile. To be honest with you,
I thought he was fine down there, but I agree
with you, I was. I was surprised at how well
he did from agility standpoints. Well, one guy we haven't

(10:55):
even mentioned, I don't think is is Addison except for
your point at the beginning, Joe his testing and then
he kind of you know stepped aside. I think he
said it was a back injury or whatever it was.
You know, is he too small? You think that that
can be that three level defense guy that can attack you,
does the does the four four nine warrior? Talk? Talk
to me about Addison a little bit. You're not worried

(11:17):
if you watched him play at PIT or USC. I mean, right,
I think I think for most people, this was the
number one receiver coming into the draft, or excuse me,
coming into the combine. Maybe that'll change. I wish he
was a little bigger. If I'm not mistaken. He measured
in the one seventies. That's that's not a place where
I really want him to be. I'd love for him

(11:37):
to be more mid one eighties pushing one ninety. I
wish there was a little bit more explosiveness. I didn't
think he'd be a four three guy, but I thought
he'd be a little bit more of a comfortable four
four type player. UM. I'm still optimistic. I think he's
a good football player, but maybe there's a little bit
of caution that um naturally enters your mindset when considering him,

(11:57):
because well, he's small, and he's not as explosive as
you want him to be. All right, let's go to
tight ends here. So maybe you're sitting into the first
round and you're like, I don't like any of these receivers.
They don't fit. I feel like I can get another
good one later. Make the case for me, Joe based
on what just so over the weekend testing wise, why
you know what, maybe this is the year you want

(12:17):
to take a tight end in the first round. Well,
I think in general, one of the most important talking
points that we should bring up when considering investing in
tight ends is the value. Right, Like, you want to
pay for a top receiver in the NFL, that's gonna
cost you thirty million dollars a season. You want the
best tight end, it's gonna cost you about half of that,
maybe fifteen to eighteen. Right. So that right there is

(12:41):
really interesting to me, especially when you can sit to
the Keynsa City chiefs. Now, not everybody gets to have
Travis Kelsey, right, Like every team would love to have him.
But you think about letting Tyreek Hill go, of course,
trading him, getting a bunch of draft capital, being comfortable
paying Travis Kelsey right, and the Giants might be in
this world of paying a quarterback a bunch of money here,
pretty soon you get to see how that kind of

(13:01):
changes the roster dynamics, and you kind of look for
those values, and you look at what the Chiefs did,
and they were willing to say goodbye to that expensive receiver,
drafted some defensive players to replace them, and then were
was able to kind of lean into, of course, what
they're paying Travis Kelsey. So I think, first of all,
there's a value there at the tight end position for
the contracts. But you know, I think what offenses really

(13:24):
want is matchups, right. You want to be able to
dictate terms and when you can put tight ends on
the field that are actually skilled, that can really run
routes and get open and provide a heightweight, speed mismatch
to defenses that are living in sub packages right there,
playing in nickel literally all the time, where you can
force them to play uncomfortable. Let's say you have a

(13:46):
couple of good tight ends, and I certainly like Daniel
Bellinger as a young player for the Giants. Not sure
that he stops you from going after one of these
really really good, talented tight ends that exists in this class.
But you can start running some twelve personnel and getting
defenses in and uncomfortable personnel groupings that they don't live in.
You know, I think you can you can really elevate

(14:06):
your your offense. And you've certainly seen, whether it's Mike
Kafker or Brian Dable throughout their careers with a lot
of tight end background, getting good contributions from tight ends.
Leaning into that might not be a bad idea for
a number of reasons. And I think the guy that
gets me excited. I know we're doing a combine every year,
but I'm going to bring up the guy that didn't
do anything at the combine. That was Dalton Kincaid. I

(14:26):
think in terms of route running, catching the football, I
mean this guy. I mean, I'm not comparing him to
the Travis Kelsey, but he has that character to him
with the way he plays in a style where you
know he might be listed as a tight end, but
that guy's a receiver and he could really change your
offense as a three level carget. His game against USC

(14:49):
this past year might be the best tight end receiving
tape I've ever watched. Um route running. His hands are
just unbelievable, and you know, It's a guy that I
think has room for some upward mobility given you know,
his small school player to star basketball background, transfers to
Utah and really really takes off. I mean they're out

(15:10):
running in hands are off the charts. The ball skills
are really really good. I mean, you're not drafting this
guy to be an inline force for you as a blocker,
right like that, That's not going to be the name
of the game there. You watch all of his plays,
you're gonna come away a little underwhelmed by his ability
to you know, win the edge as a blocker. But
you want that receiving profile, you want that move piece
that you could put in the slot. You could put

(15:31):
him out of the backfield and really get some production.
You know. That's that's a great name. And you know, unfortunately,
like you mentioned, whether it was a Senior Bowl, couldn't
participate due to an injury, and of course now not
getting any numbers from it. To combine, he feels like
he's a little lot of sight out of mind. But
my goodness, does this guy have a bright future as
a pass catcher in the NFL. One guy that wasn't though,

(15:51):
And I'll get to the physical freak show in a second.
I thought Sam Laporta was excellent. Yeah, I thought his
jos were great. He came in at six or two
forty five right of four five nine, which I thought
was a really good number for him. His three code
and short shuttle at four twenty five and six nine
one were fantastic. You know, I don't think he's gonna
inch his way into the first round, you know, for
my money, though, you pick him in round two, I mean,

(16:14):
he's gonna give you that type of value at least
in my opinion, and he can block for you a
little bit too. John. I'm not sure how much Iowa
football you watched over the last two years, but that
offense is tough to watch, man. But the one thing
they did have with Samuelaporta, damn it, and they threw
him the ball and he caught a ton of passes
and was like the only good thing that ever happened
when you watch Iowa played offense. And he's he's a

(16:37):
really intriguing player. Like you mentioned the receiving skill sets
there and where what I can really appreciate about Sam Laporta.
And we say this for a lot of players, but
I really mean it for Samuelaporta, when you when everybody
in the world knows where the ball is going and
you still can't stop it, Like, that's a good football player,
and that's what it was for samuelaporter But like in

(16:58):
the most extreme example, if there's nowhere else to go,
you know, we're scoring ten eleven points a game, it
it feels like but if it wasn't Sam Laporta, it
was nobody. So I appreciate what he brought to that team,
especially with the attention that was placed on him. Really
good production with really bad quarterback play. You mentioned the
blocking ability again, you're not drafting this guy to block,
but man, his effort is really strong, Like he gets

(17:20):
after people as a blocker, So I think he probably
gives you more there than you get from a Kingcaide.
But I think Sam Laporta is very much that. Okay,
maybe we don't want to pick a first round tight end,
but we could probably feel pretty good about waiting until
the second round and getting Sam Laporta as our fallback
option given everything we heard and people were saying how
this guy was gonna absolutely blow the combine up. We're

(17:42):
a little underwhelmed by Musgrave and the numbers he put up. No,
here's the thing about Musgrave that's interesting. I thought he
was awesome at the Senior bow. I think everybody did.
And I was at his podium session there and he said,
I still feel slow, like he's kind of working back.
He's like, yeah, I spoke to him one on one

(18:03):
and he said he still felt rusty. You don't even
write for like two weeks. Yeah, right, So so I
kind of believe him, um to speak, we're aware of
the injury. But then like you did see so the
functional athleticism really showed up, and where he opens his
stride it can really pull away. But it's also just
how technically is as a route runner really good at
the catch point will certainly give you the blocking skills.

(18:26):
And if I'm not mistaken, he's still clocked his forty
low four six yeah, which I think is a really
good time. He's good good size two with him, um yeah.
I think the question that I have more with him
and his jumps were good thirty six inch Verton over
ten and the and the broad The question that I
had with Musgrave is just like, we didn't get a
lot of production from you in college right, I mean

(18:48):
like not a ton at all. So for as enticing
as the skill set is in the physical skills and
the athleticism and what we did see at the Senior Bowl,
you wish that you had a little bit more resume
to cling to when you talk about translating him to
the NFL. But from a physical traits perspective, I really
think he offers a lot. You know, don't know. Washington
came in at six six two sixty four, and you

(19:10):
know what, I wasn't shocked by all the numbers that
I saw coming in until I saw the short shuttle
time at four oh eight, And I'm like, how is
that even possible? Because I gotta be honest with you,
watching him doing the drills and everything, he still kind
of looks like he lumbers around. To me, he gets
the time. It reminded me of the kid out of
Virginia last year who ran the really good time but
today yeah yeah, still yeah. Jilanni woods So did not

(19:33):
look like a super fluid guy. How Washington ran a
four oh eight short shuttle, I have no I can't
even fathom it. I need to find a video of that,
if you like teleported or what he did because just
the way I saw him moving around, I don't know
how that's possible. And holy count, that number translates to
the field. You know, I think with players like him,

(19:55):
I think you're correct and that they're not necessarily moving
very fast, but are covering a lot of ground right
with those strides and their ability to eat it up.
And I think that's what you get from from Darnell Washington.
I think he's probably more of a gradual speed guy.
Um And certainly I think what's most important as you
go back to the tape, and you don't like that
that speed, that athleticism doesn't show up, just like I'd

(20:17):
say it didn't show up for Jeanni Woods. It's straight
up didn't. But then they test like that and you realize, okay,
we got something here. Um. And so for for Darnell Washington,
um man, he's he's gonna be an impact blocker from
day one. Um. You know, you see the NFL, everybody
wants to run outside zone. Well, you gotta win the
edge and outside zone. You can do that with Darnel Washington.

(20:39):
But also it's it's that catch radius. It's that ability
to beat zone coverage which really matters. Right. It's it's
one thing to be maybe not like the most explosive
tight end that you don't love as a guy that's
gonna win against man coverage a ton. But is he smart?
Can he make set adjustments? Can he sit down? Can
he be available? Absolutely? And so I think that catch radius,
with that blocking ability, with that's size, he's plenty appealing.

(21:01):
But yeah, I mean, I think we could all agree
that that level of freak athlete wasn't what we saw
all the time at Georgia. Hi is Tucker Craft gonna go?
It's a good question. I mean, we've got this group
of tight ends, whether it's Michael mayor Darnell Washington, Dalton Kincaid,
Luke musk Grave, Tucker Craft like this? Is that SAMUELA

(21:24):
Porter like? Those are the guys, right. I think Tucker
Craft has some things working against me. Had a little
bit of an injury this past year, smaller school guy.
I think he's probably a second round pick. I'd be
very surprised if he got to the third round. But
what could work for him and him falling a little
bit if you want it? Not necessary for him, it
would work against him, But for the teams that are

(21:44):
wanting him is you just don't see that volume of
tight ends go right, Like, we don't typically see more
than one first round tight end. There's not even been
that many selected recently. So there's a numbers game that
probably hurts Tucker Craft but provides a lot of value
to the NFL if he's the guy that kind of
slides a little bit, because at the end of the day,

(22:04):
I don't think seven tight ends are going to go
in the first two rounds. All right, let let's go
to running back an offensive line here, Um, the Giants
could be in the running back conversation. We don't know
the answer to that question. Ask for this recording on Monday.
Who's the guy that maybe let's take Bijean and Gibson
throw them out. Who else at the combine because you
know they're going to be gone into the first round,
very early second round. Right of the guys that performed

(22:27):
at the combine, you know, we've talked about Taj Spears
a ton. He didn't really do much an indie. Who
are the guys that you like in Day two or
early Day three picks that you think kind of step
in here based on what you're saw in Indie that
that kind of impact and you're like, oh, yeah, that's
you know what I would. I would give him the
reins and feel pretty good about it. Yeah. I mean,
if you're looking for that lead back, right, I think

(22:47):
that's where the conversation gets interesting because there's a ton
of guys that you feel like can be a complimentary player,
but if you want to a guy that could really
carry the load, I think after Bijean and Jamir give right,
those are very correctly identified as one and two. I
think you look at guys like Zach charbon At out
of UCLA bigger back. For him, it was a two

(23:08):
hundred and fourteen pounds six foot two fourteen, ran four
five three thirty seven verse ten two broad. You saw
the way that he won through contact with consistency at UCLA,
A lot of vision there. You know, he's a guy
that you feel, I can really take some volume for
your offense. Kenny Macintosh is a player that I really like.

(23:29):
I know that he he ran four six two. I
know that that doesn't get a lot of people excited,
but watch him play. I mean, if you want a
multifaceted back that can win downhill, that can catch the football,
that can block. I mean, you get a lot from
Kenny mackintosh, and I don't think athleticism was something that
I was concerned about with him in the SEC. So
I like him as if you're looking for a guy

(23:49):
that can carry some volume for you, and then I
know that Roshan Johnson has a lot of fans and
another bigger back six foot two twenty pounds ran four
five eight, high character guy. You feel like he can
carry some volume for you as well. I know Bijean
was kind of the guy there for Texas, but a
lot of people think that Roshan has starter traits in
the NFL, and I think four or fives and two

(24:11):
hundred and twenty pounds is something that as a as
a you know, guy that's gonna take some carries for you.
That's kind of what you're looking for. And that's not
kidding until he's much TODJ Spears explosive. You like him
as a complimentary player. Devin a chain from Texas and
I'm complimentary player to me, but you want that guy
to take some volume. Those are some of the names
that come to mind for me. How about Chase Brown?
How much did he help himself with that four four three.

(24:32):
We know about he had all the production might you
would ever won. I mean, Chase Brown probably should have
been the Heisman Trophy winner for being honest, right, Like
I mean, I don't nobody's really gonna pound the table
for a running back out of Illinois, but like measure
his production up against some of the other people, and
he should have at least been in New York. Maybe
maybe we won't pull Caleb Williams Heisman away from him.

(24:53):
But I think that that Chase had certainly had a
case and was really really productive. I think for him, um,
the testing was really really good. And why I think
it's important is because I thought he looked very ordinary
at the Senior Bowl, right, like, the season was great,
and then the Senior Bowl was May and he comes
back and test really well, and it feels like you

(25:15):
can kind of lean back into it um a little
with some confidence. But yeah, I mean the season he
had this past year was phenomenal. The combine was phenomenal,
and I think he's got a lot of momentum. Yeah,
I agree, I think so too. All right, into your
offensive line, the Giants could be in that marketplace here, Joe,
I don't think it testing wise, anyone jumped out of

(25:35):
me at least a garden center John Michael Schmidtz. You
know it is fine, you know, Steve if Vilo was fine.
You know, nobody to me really pumped. Who are some
of the guys that that either you know, listen to
them or watching them doing their thing at the combine
or in general that you think could be a look
at guard center that can plug him play for you
on day two? Yeah, I think you hit some of

(25:56):
the big names. Joe Tipman, John Michael Schmidtz, so Cyrus Torrence,
those are kind of your you're cream of the crop
into your offensive lineman that I would expect to go
in the back twenty five percent of the first round
into the second round. There's your starters. But if you
want to move away from those names. Two one small
school guy in one not small school guy city. So

(26:16):
out of Eastern Michigan. He came in three hundred twenty
three pounds, almost thirty four inch arms, almost eleven inch hands,
ran five h seven thirty two inch vertical for an
offensive guard at three twenty three pounds. He's a player
that actually a former NFL player at the Senior Bowl
said Hey, Joe, you gotta watch City So and I did,
and then he did that at the combine, and so

(26:36):
I'm really leaning into to him as a kind of
a maybe maybe a later day two guy that lines
up being a steal for somebody. And then the ucl
UCLA guard John Gaines the second I thought he from
a testing perspective, also really helped himself at the combine.
So I think it was the names you'd expect. But
if you want to go a little bit deeper, City

(26:58):
so Eastern Michigan, John is a second out of UCLA
are two guys that I think helped themselves a lot.
Over the weekend, Joe Shane Joe talked in Indianapolis about
the scarcity of defensive tackles, interior defensive lineman, you know,
trying to find somebody to go with Dexter Lawrence and
Leonard Williams maybe eventually step in forward Leonard Williams down
the road as he gets a little bit older. Who

(27:20):
are some of the defensive tackles that you think Willie
na have made a name for themselves out there that
could fit that Bill Well, I think that's for me.
Keanu Benton's the name that really really pops out of Wisconsin.
Good career for the Badgers, and then good senior bull
good combine. We like where this is headed. Right wrestling background.
I think he's got the versatility to play multiple spots

(27:42):
up front. Has some good hand usage, which is not
something you can see at the combine, but I appreciate
that about his game and some of the counters that
exist with his rush profile. So he's a name. I
obviously Jalen Carter out of Georgia's the huge name, Brian
breecy Clemson, but I'm really excited about him, Keano Benson,
and then a guy that I don't don't know that

(28:03):
he did a whole lot of testing, but I know
he did the bench press, Mazzy Smith out of Michigan.
I think we're sleeping. I think everybody's sleeping on this guy.
I think he's a freak athlete that's three hundred thirty
pounds that had a great season for Michigan that I
think offers versatility and maybe his pass rush impact in

(28:23):
college wasn't great, but my goodness, the athleticism that he
has gets me excited about translating him to the next level.
And we said things like that about Dalvin Tomlinson. We
said things like that about other interior defensive lineman that
Vitavea can he rush in the NFL? Yes he can.
They're they're big athletic dudes. And so I think Mazzi

(28:46):
Smith out of Michigan is a player that's absolutely slept
on an interior defensive line that is gonna, you know,
whether that's late first round or second round. I think
is a name people need to get a little bit
more in tune with. I'm gonna throw a couple of names. Actually,
give me your take at a time away at a
bare from Northwestern who was unbelievable with this test crazy combine, Yeah, ridiculous.

(29:08):
The guy that four four nine to two pounds, like
what and then it just drill work good too. He
looks rocked up like thirty four inch arms, like he
checks every box. I hope people made a big deal
about Coliji Cans. He's forty, he's the laborom so he
hasn't done anything else really, And then I thought Gurbon
Dexter looked really good too as a bigger guy. Those
other two guys kind of undersized. I thought he'd flashed

(29:28):
him pretty good to let athleticism for a bigger guy.
Good names are bringing up will start with Gurvin Dexter. Yeah,
the size and athleticism really popped at the Combine and
that was good because I thought for two seasons at
Florida he was really really inconsistent. And I get concerned
about Florida, like just I don't feel like their player
development for the last decade has been very good. Um,

(29:50):
it just feels like just a lot of just underdeveloped players.
And I think that happens when you have so much
turnover with your coaching staff. But um, he's a guy
that maybe his best football is ahead of him. I
do think this last two years of tape concern me.
But against size and athleticism is absolutely there. You mentioned
Klijah Cancy got a pit and I'll tell you what,
he might be the most difficult evaluation in the class

(30:11):
because he's a complete outlier in terms of size. I mean,
what was six one, two hundred eighty pounds? What sub
did he have? Thirty one in charms? I mean just
they were very short. They were very short. Just just
concerning lee short and you can you can absolutely appreciate, Yeah,
thirty and five eighths on the arm at sub thirty one.
That's crazy to me. Um. You can appreciate the disruption

(30:34):
and how impactful he was at PIT, but translating that
to the next level is just really really hard for me.
I think he can provide some energy, but I mean
that type he's gonna get outreached all day long in
the NFL. He like he's gonna have to relearn how
to win, right because just guys are gonna be longer,
they're gonna be more stout, they're gonna be able to

(30:54):
move better in the NFL, and I think it's gonna
be a big challenge for Colijah Cancy. So to me,
he's a guy that I recognize the talent and the
intrigue and all that, but he's probably a guy I
let somebody else pick right Like that you can you
can enjoy the risk reward, I'll lean into a different player. Um.
And then the last one was out of Tommy Yeah
man from from Northwestern Goodness gracious. UM, shout out to

(31:18):
Kyle Krabs with one of my colleagues, we do the
draft dudes together and Um, he was in on him
over the summer. But I don't think anybody expected four
fours at two eighty plus pounds. I mean, that's freak stuff.
That's really interesting. And I like the density of his frame.
He's not super like Paul, so he's sub six two,

(31:39):
like six one and a half. Like that's a lot
of density to go with that explosiveness in those long arms.
So man, I mean, I thought he looked good at
the Senior Bowl and had a good career at Northwestern.
He is one of the biggest risers of late for sure.
You know, I'm not sure if the John's gonna go
after another edge guy. They have a Zizojalari and cave
On tipod House. But Joe Shay and his time in Buffalo, Joe,

(32:03):
as you well know, they just kept drafting defensive lineman.
It doesn't matter who they had up there. They just
keep going Evanessa at Oliver Rousseau, just go down the line, right,
they signed von Miller. They just keep atching guys up front.
Stop who in that group. And Indie really jumped out
to you and that can be like, oh, Win Barndale,
I could see him really liking that dude up front. Well,

(32:24):
keep mentioning the Senior Bowl, but man, wink, Martin Dell
and Joe shamber right there on the sidelines. Focusing on
those defensive linemen too. You can tell that's something they'll
be thinking about. And obviously with a bunch of expiring
contracts there with a lot of the depth players, you
could see them going with with some defensive linemen. Um,
what's what's interesting is the Wink Martin Dell defense usually

(32:46):
features some very stout dudes and then just guys that
they can create space to unleash and attack the pocket
right and when you go to the edge side of things,
that group really there's so many players that I think
translate to that style of defense. Like, if you're a
pure even front defense and you're looking for a true

(33:08):
four three defensive end, maybe this isn't the class for you.
But if you want those guys that you can really
scheme up and create some rush lanes for them, you can.
And that's what Wink does, right, He's made a hell
of a career out of that. You can get those players.
So I think about a Byron Young from from Tennessee
with man I mean first in flexibility for days. He

(33:29):
really really intrigues me. You know. Nolan Smith, I know,
is a smaller player but I mean, I think even
at Georgia you knew he was a little little underdeveloped
with his rush plan, but the athleticism was off the charts.
He certainly validated that with his combine showing. He intrigues
me quite a bit. I mean, Will McDonald, I know
that he didn't do all this stuff, but as a length, burst,

(33:55):
flexibility type guy out of Iowa State, he pops. I
mean those that I can really go on and on
Felix and Adki used zomb out of Kansas State. He
really fits that type of description. So I think that
the well is going to be plentyfull for the Giants
if they're looking for some of those slashers off the
edge and then those stout dudes on the interior as well.

(34:16):
All right, let's go to the middle linebacker. The Giants
really don't have one. Yeah, they signed Jared Davis around
Christmas Eve starting playoff games for them. I mean, it
was ridiculous. Jayles Smith was basically picked off the scrap heap, right,
he couldn't find the team he started for the most
of the year, And I don't think this is a
great middle linebacker group. It would not shock me Joe
if you don't see even one picked in the first round,

(34:38):
even as late as the Giants are picking. What did you?
I know you're in mental one the earlier. So a
little teas there. What guys at the combine at that
spot really jumped out as you that you think couldn't
intrigue the Giants there, either with the first round pick
or maybe when they're picking in the fifties. Yeah. I
think the name's Jack Campbell out of Iowa. Really good
player there this past season. I think two years ago

(35:00):
he showcased himself well, and I didn't love his twenty
twenty one tape, But twenty twenty two, I think he
put it all together. And we're talking over sixty four
two hundred and fifty pounds ran four six five. I mean,
like objectively one of the best five combine performances of
any player there. I mean, just showcasing athleticism and ways

(35:22):
that we needed to see it. Because that was my
question with Jack Campbell was, Hey, I like your downhill ability,
You're super smart, You're a good tackler. I think you
have short short zone coverage skill, but what type of
range do you have? Well? I think we feel good
about the athletic profile that we saw at the combine,
and I think I think for a lot of teams

(35:43):
he's going to be a really good choice. What's interesting
about the linebackers is maybe we don't have a lot
of options in the draft that we love, but free
agency is gonna provide some answers there for teams. I
mean a lot of veterans and intriguing players there that
I think offset some of what this class is missing
at linebacker. And especially you think about like the top
two guys that people talk about, Drew Sanders out of

(36:04):
Arkansas not necessarily a very traditional player in terms of
how he wanted Arkansas. I think I think if there
were Sam linebackers in the NFL anymore, like a true
fourth three Sam, like he's perfect, right that that's that's
what you want, but that's not the end. Yeah. And
then even even the other guy, Trent and Simpson, we

(36:25):
knew he's athletic, but I'm not sure he's more than
just a seaball get ball type player. Like the read
and react skill there is very underwhelming. I think he's
a guy that you would just give him singular responsibility
to shoot this gap, cover this player, right, uh, pursue
from the weak side. You know, I worry about I
worry about the processing skills there. So that brings me

(36:47):
to guys like Jack Campbell, who I'm really excited about
today coming out of the combine because I got an
athletic profile that I needed to go with processing skills
and consistent film. Yeah, his short shuttle time in three
cone work were fantastic, which is really important for him.
Many a solid forty time too. Is he low? Four six?
Is right? Campbell? Right? Yeah, really good? Excellent? All right, cornerback,

(37:09):
last position we'll hit here, Joe, because I think this
is probably maybe the strength of this class, and no question,
no question. You know, We're flying back on Friday night
and I'm trying to keep tracking these drills on my
phone and I'm like, are all these guys running in
the four three's? How is this possible? And it was possible,

(37:29):
they all did it, And now I wonder who's even
gonna be left when the Giants pick at twenty five. Well,
the good news about these corner classes that there's a
lot of them, and I think I think you're going
to see him stacked up a whole lot of different
ways and Obviously, scheme specificity's gonna gonna come into play
for what skill sets match, what what teams want to do.
But I mean this, this thing is absolutely slam full

(37:52):
of guys. Devin Witherspoon out of Illinois, Christian Gonzalez, who's
an absolute monster out of Oregon, Joey Porter Junior for
the U. I said, the Giants for Penn State. You know,
he's gonna be intriguing for people, giant fans if he
got down there. I think that'd be that'd be a
real that'd be a real good fit for him. Um.

(38:13):
You know Cam Smith out of South Carolina looks really good, Um,
Blue Kellyante Banks. I mean these all these players we
just mentioned, those are like top forty five picks, top
fifty picks, And that's just scratching the surface. So there's
gonna be there's gonna be answers here for teams. Um,
and if you need one, get one because the well

(38:33):
is full and there's a lot of talent. There's a
lot of different skill sets available. You mentioned skill setting fit.
You know what Wi Morndale likes to do. Joe, he
wants the blitz and he wants to play man. Yeah,
who fits oh Man Devin Witherspoon. I think is the
man coverage skills are the Giants are picking with twenty five?
I don't know or twenty six? Yeah, I know. That's

(38:53):
probably where we should focus the conversation. You mentioned Deante
Banks out of out of Maryland. Physical, I mean, certainly
got the eyes and athleticism to turn and carry. I
really like Cam Smith out of South Carolina. I think
feet and hips are really good ball skills. Competitive puffness
are there. You don't worry he's gonna be able to
tackle for you that there's no questions there. And like
let's say that you miss out, you want to wait,

(39:15):
you got you know, second round pick or know the
Giants have a couple of third round picks. If I'm
not mistaken, Hi, you Blue Kelly out of Stanford really
is a good man cover corner that can tackle and
has lengths. So there's there's gonna be guys at all spots,
and so if they don't get one at twenty five,
it'll be all right. They'll get somebody later on. You know.
It's funny one guy that I watched his tape before
the Senior Ball when we went down the mobile and

(39:37):
I was underwhelmed. I'm like, he's sixty three, but he
doesn't play like he's six three. He's not physical, he's
inconsistent Julius Brents. And then I thought he was pretty
good at mobile and then his testing at his size
with his agility drills and Indianapolis and Wink loves big
long corners. Now I'm thinking boys, is that a mid
round fit there given his raw skills. Well, I really

(40:03):
liked his game against TCU in the Big twelve Championship games.
If you're looking for like his best game, that would
be the one to watch. And like you mentioned, I
liked him at the senior both certainly tested really really well. Uh,
he is a player that I think is probably a
better fit for zone schemes. Um, you know, I think
for his athletic and as big as he is, I
still think you want him him playing, you know, kind

(40:24):
of in that half turn cover three you know quarters looks. Yeah,
he's he's that right, And you say that, But like
the Seahawks defense is now in on a lot of teams,
whether it's with the Jets they got out of Sauce Gardner,
I guess the Seahawks still the forty nine ers, the Bills.
You know, there's a lot of teams out there that
rut colts right. There's there's defenses for him. He may

(40:45):
not be the best fit for the Giants fair enough. Um,
a couple other guys that impressed with their testing, Uh
Keiley Ringout who I know, people all over the map
on that dude. Yeah, Um, he has the physical ability
to play press man, but I'm not sure if he
could do it yet this year. And then Darius Rush
at the South Carolina who was unbelievable in mobile and

(41:06):
then you know, just being up close to him, he
is such a big frame dude, Like he's a big corner.
He made a four to three six, which I cannot
see coming. Your thoughts on those two guys, Yeah, you
know I didn't see that coming from Darius Rush either.
I watched his tape in South Carolina did the right
up on him, and I had athleticism concerns and maybe

(41:27):
that kind of kind of comes from You know, sometimes players,
if you if you if your play speeds and your
processing speeds not there, you're gonna look slow. But in
an isolated situation where it's hey, run forty yards, do
this drill, you're gonna look fast, right, And I still
think that his functional athleticism is different. So, I mean,

(41:47):
I think it's good to know that he's capable of
that type of athletic profile, but I didn't see it
at South Carolina, and I thought of him as his
own corner as well, especially when you think about the
ball skills that he has. I think that you can
really maximize that with him very much not having his
back to the line of scrimmage, with a whole lot
of consistency. The other name you mentioned was a Keiley Ringo. Yeah,

(42:09):
I mean you think about the journey there. You couldn't
open a mock draft over the summer without him being
probably a top ten pick, right. But I think the
reality of him is it's more physical upside than it
is consistency on the field and just that reactionary ability
to mirror and really feel routes and clothes. It's not there.

(42:31):
I mean, like he's got some impressive moments because of
the athleticism, and he makes them really exciting plays. But
I don't know that he's a guy that I would
label as sticky. I don't know that he's a very
instinctive corner, right, and so that's kind of the stuff
you might want to stay away from when you're considering
a man heavy defense. One hundred percent agree with your
final guy. I'll ask you about at corner before I
give you one generic question. DJ Turner right four to six.

(42:55):
I have not done a full deep tape study on
him yet. What scheme does he fit? And is he
pushing himself into the first round conversation? Now he's he's
a man corner. So this this, this is more along
the Giants prototypes of what you're gonna like about DJ
Turner as he's athletic, he's got quick feet, fluid ips,
sticky in coverage, and he is a dude when it
comes to tackling. Like I like my dbs to tackle.

(43:17):
I know that, Um, that's secondary to coverage and making
plays in the ball, but like if you can come
down and tackle, like to me, that matters. Um, that's
one of the biggest exceptions that I'll never forget, Like CJ.
Henderson coming out of Florida, Like I just couldn't get
past the business decisions that that guy made. And look
look where he's at in the NFL right now. He's
kind of bouncing, bouncing around a couple different teams, inconsistent. Um,

(43:40):
DJ Turner, Let's get back to him. Really good athlete,
really instinctive player, and he's a dog in terms of
tackling ability. So I like him a ton. I worry
about the size. You know, we're sub sub thirty one
in charms, one hundred and seventy eight pounds. Um. You
think maybe at five to eleven he can add a
little bit um and and even if that means losing

(44:00):
some athleticism, because I mean he's obviously super athletic. I
like to see him push one hundred eighty five ninety pounds,
and I think he would be a really nice option
for the Giants, honestly on Day two. All right, final
question here, How did the landscape of this draft in
your eyes, Joe change during that week in Indianapolis? If

(44:22):
at all, you can look at it from any perspective
you want, top of the draft, trade market, whatever, What
was the most striking thing for you that maybe changed
the way you were thinking about this draft in general?
I think for me, it's my belief that we get
four top ten quarterbacks has changed. I didn't think going

(44:44):
into it. I didn't think that would happen. I thought
there was enough concerns with Anthony Richardson that he would
more or less be a maybe for the top ten.
And you kind of thought more teams maybe trading back
into the first rounds, Teams that maybe weren't needing a
quarterback now down the line would want to maybe trade
back and get him or use a later first round

(45:04):
pick on him. I think with him literally be testing
at a level that we all knew he's athletic, right,
that's not hard to know, But did we know he
was like the most athletic quarterback ever quarterback almost player,
all right, yee's it's like, it's ridiculous that guy's going early,
like and I know that like the man, he doesn't

(45:25):
have a lot of snaps, Like there's red flags here.
Let's let's not forget like he's very inexperienced, weird coaching situation,
super uneven play, inaccurate, all of it. John, But he's
like too much of a freak for a team like
Seattle right to not pick in that top ten, Right,
I just I think he's gonna do it, so I think,

(45:46):
And that's a big fundamental shift, right, I thought maybe
maybe like kind of had to force it. Now I'm like, yeah,
this guy might not only be a top ten pick,
maybe a top five. Maybe he's a number one pick.
I don't know, but someone's gonna bet on those traits.
I know it. Joe, good stuff. Promote what you want
to promote the man. Yeah. Hey, appreciate you having me
on John The best thing you can do. Follow me
on Twitter at d Joe Marino, Draft Dudes Podcast, Lockdown,

(46:08):
Bill's Podcast, and always always fun talking about with you. John.
Absolutely check out Joe stuff, check out the Draft Network,
all that good stuff in Kayle do a fantastic job.
Thanks for joining us on the John's Little Podcast, brought
you by PSC and Jay. We'll see you next time. Everybody,