March 7, 2025 • 46 mins
On this episode of the Giants Huddle podcast, John Schmeelk and Paul Dottino are joined by Joel Corry, of CBS Sports and a former NFL agent, to discuss the 2025 free agents.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's time to get inside the Giants huts.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Let's Giants do I like it out on the Giants Moubul,
give me some job.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Part of the Giants podcast Network. Let's roll. Welcome to
another edition of the Giants Httle podcast, brought to you
by Citizens, the official bank of the Giants. John Schmelk
pulled Theatino hopping on for this episode. Joined by front
of the program. He's probably been joining us every year
for a good eight years now. Joe Cory, who former
NFL agent h and now he works for CBS Sports
analyzing contracts and all the like. Joel, Good to see him, man.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Good to see you guys. How you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
We're doing great? All right? So contracts have become more
complicated over the past few years. You know, I think
we all kind of have a handle on them. How
I worked with Sony bonuses, parations, roster bonuses, injury guarantees,
all that stuff has been pretty clear. But now teams
are pretty liberal now in terms of adding Voidier's Joel
doing things called option bonuses. So before we open up
(00:51):
to the fridging class, I want to touch on that first. Uh,
Let's start with the void yeer situation. I think fans
understand why you put void years on. You could basically
spread out a signing bonus over years after the contract
is up, so you basically spread out the total value
contract over each year, giving you more cap space in
individual years. Why do you think teams are being more
(01:12):
liberal with using these void years and putting them on
before contracts even signed in a lot of cases. And
do you think, given how the cap just keeps going
up even more than teams suspect that more teams are
going to adopt a strategy and is it a sound
strategy moving forward for a lot of these teams.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Well, you didn't see a lot of teams doing void years.
Some did, like the Saints the Cowboys before the pandemic
year when you had the cap go down, that necessitated
a lot of teams deciding, like the Steelers had never
done avoid year in a contract, to put voiding dummy
years in contracts just to be able to manage the
(01:50):
fact that we lost like sixteen million cap space for
the previous year. Now, once teams have gotten more comfortable
doing it, it's become basically the norm. Some teams have
gone to an extreme where they're not only doing voiding
dummy years. They're putting a bunch of option bonuses in contracts.
(02:12):
I'm explaining to what an option bonus is. An option
bonus is essentially like a second signing bonus after either
the second or third year of the contract, where you
pick up a real year or fake year down the road.
The option bonus is pro rated beginning in the year
you exercise the option, and it's pro rated just like
(02:33):
signing bonus for the life of the contract, up to
a maximum of five years. So you used to see
maybe one option bonus in a contract. I remember when
Joe Flacco became the highest paid player in the league,
and I think twenty thirteen, that was he had two
option bonuses in a contract. That was highly unusual. That
(02:53):
was still the case up until a couple of years ago. Now,
the guy responsible for this whole multiple option bonus concept
is Howie Roseman. He's pushing the envelope and away most
people don't. He has three, four or five option bonuses
in contracts. So it's essentially like you're doing a pre restructure,
(03:14):
because if you did a regular contract no option bonuses,
you might take everything but the minimum based salary then
convert it into signing bonus to pick up cap room
for that particular year. When you do the option bonuses,
typically you're taking the base salary down to the minimum.
Everything else is signing bonus. The presumption is you're going
(03:38):
to exercise an option, so for the cap you automatically
get the cap treatment like the option has been exercise.
You pick the right guys, it's no problem because like
Jalen Hurts, they're probably going to extend him at some
point of all those fake dumb years we turned into
real contract years and extension at some point down the road.
(03:59):
But if you pick the wrong guy, not only do
you have signing bonus proation, then you've got option bonus proation,
and that keeps adding up, so you could have multiple
dead money if you've got a guy that didn't pan
out you started doing that with. Or there's a case
this year there's someone who wants to trade where the
team decided to start doing these multiple option bonuses in
(04:22):
a restructure contemplating these eventually going to sign a long
term deal. That's Miles Garrett. He wants out of Cleveland.
If Cleveland decided to trade him before June second, and
they have no designs. I wanted to trade it right now,
right now. This is a high stakes game of chicken.
(04:42):
Let's see who blinks. But his cap number is like
seventeen to nine because of the previous signing bonus option
and then the option bonuses in his contract, the dead
money to trade him before June second. Right now, if
they wanted to trade him before the fifth day of
the league year, win a small option bonus kicks in,
it would be thirty six point two.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Million to all that money would pro rate up the
same way or yeah, so they're gonna have a much
an eight way of signing bonus would.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
So they're gonna have eighteen million more on the cap
than their state of cap number right now to trade him.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Before the fifth day of the league year.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Now after that, when that other five million hits, add
five more million to the dead money. So if there's
going to be a trade, most likely it'll be after
June one, and then they don't get twenty twenty five
draft capital. But they clearly were thinking Miles Garrett, as
Andrew Beer, the GM said we be going from Cleveland
to Canton. Garrett has other ideas, but that's the case
(05:41):
where they thought they picked the right guy, but really
it looks like now they may have picked the wrong guy.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Paul, I have two follow ups on this real quick, Okay,
if you don't mind. Yeah, So I'm looking at Jalen
Hurts's contract for an example, Joel, and I'm gonna use
that as a basis because I think that's kind of
what started this whole trend. Right, So, I got two questions.
I'll ask them one of the time as they're complicated.
So right now I'm looking at Jalen Hurts's contract, and
to your point, he is a minimum base salary. His
base salary is never over one point five million dollars
(06:07):
and everything is in pro rated signing bonus, which is
all under five million, and then these option bonuses kick in, right,
and I'm looking at it right now. They have this
is according to spot track, they have four void years
at the end of this contract starting in twenty twenty nine,
with values of thirty eight, thirty, twenty and ten million dollars.
So when he's not even signed to the roster. Two questions. One,
(06:28):
Let's say they end up signing him to an extension, right,
what happens to those void years? Does whatever the extension is,
and the amount of money on those years gets added
on to those void years. Do those void years stay
there with those numbers even when he signs that contract extension.
How does that work?
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Uh, they'll get negotiated into real years. This wouldn't be
the first time of the void year you've been turned
into a real year. Drew Brees's last couple of contracts
with the Saints, and the Saints from one of these teams,
you've always kicked the can down the road more than
to anybody else. They stuck voiding dummy years in his
contracts where it was getting close to the wire. I
remember there's one year where his contracts avoided the last
(07:12):
day of that league year, and they got a contract
done like two days before the league year ended, and
they turned those dummy voting years into real years, negotiated
it those into real salaries. What some teams will do
is they'll stick some crazy number in the void years,
because if it's you can only give someone a salary
(07:33):
increase on a veteran contract once and then you got
to wait twelve months. But if you have these and
then they look at the salary increase, it's really they
look at the aggriate cat numbers of what years are left,
and they include the voiding dummy years is real years.
So how you can do an increase twice is you
stick like seventy five million the void dummy years. So
(07:55):
when you look at the aggurate money left, although it's
not real money, it's counting his real money for these rules,
then you're not really violating that particular waiting period. And
you could do one four months later as opposed to
waiting for the for the year to end for that
was twelve months.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Stand So, just as an example, like Dak Prescott this year, right,
he'd avoid you at the end of his last contract
and the Cowboys extended him. That's why his cap number
this year and the Cowboys will get it down obviously
is like ninety million, right, because you had the money
left over from the last contract in addition to what
they gave him on the new deal. That's why that
number for him is so big this year, correct, right, because.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
He was in his contract year twenty twenty four for
his contract year, and they had like voiding twenty five,
twenty six, twenty seven years because if he had played
out his contract, they're going to have like forty point
five million in debt money if he let the contract
with the void years expire, so they turned those into
real years. The reason is Captain number was so high
is because you had pro racist shows associated with those
(08:50):
void dummy years, which stays stays intact, but Dallas kicks
the can down the road. I expect that they're going
to they stuck dummy voting years in this contract as well,
which contemplates they're going to do restructures like.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
They've always done.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
So he's not gonna be playing on a ninety million
dollar cap, yet they're gonna chop that thing way down, all.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Right, now, final question on the void years, and then
Paul I apologize for answer asking a bunch of the
start of this. Why would a player like Jalen Hurts
agree to these option bonuses is my question because to
your point, they don't become guaranteed, and a lot of
times it's two years in advance, right, You got to
pick up this option bonus two years in advance, right,
And that's kind of how it works.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Like usually a year in advance, Usually you pick it
up the year it's coming up. Because right now, like
he's got one for twenty twenty five, so it's to
exercise and option. Usually the period's the first to five
or seven days of the league year, and some, like
Aaron Rodgers' case, you've had long windows because he's old older,
so it's been up until the day of the first
(09:50):
regular season game, So you pick up a future year three, four,
five years down the road. But it's advantageous for the
player from this standpoint. If he's the wrong guy, they're
gonna be a ton of cap consequences to release him,
and you probably have to use a posting one designation
because you've got pro ration from signing bonus proation from
(10:13):
the first sign first option bonus, second option bonus that
keeps stacking up.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
The Jaguars player's thinking, this team's not gonna cut me.
Even though these option bonuses haven't kicked in because of
the previous structure of the contract, it's so onerous from
a cap perspective, they basically have to pick up these
option bonuses, is what.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Yeah, Well, the way it works though, it's typically your
salary is X, and your salary will reduce down to
your league minimum if the option bonus is picked up.
So there's a reason the team will pick it up
because from a cap standpoint, the presumption is you are
going to pick it up, So they assume that the
(10:52):
cap treatment is.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
You have picked it up.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
If you don't freat it, don't pick it up, then
say you had a forty million dollar base salary in
that it's reduced down to your league minimum and the
rest gets pro rated. If you don't pick it up,
then you're gonna have the forty million base salary on
the books in that particular year. So there's a huge
incentive for the team to go ahead and pick up
(11:15):
the option. Because Trevor Lawrence is this contract mimics this
Jalen Hurts contract with like multiple option bonuses and plus.
In these high end contracts, you're gonna have the salary
already fully guaranteed, or if it's not fully guaranteed as
signing in Lawrence's case, you have like the twenty twenty
(11:36):
seven base salary becomes fully guaranteed in twenty twenty six.
So you're kind of stuck. And his is more precarious
than Jalen Hurts. His Hurts just won a Super Bowl.
Trevor Lawrence, the jury is still out on him, but
he's a fifty five million per year, So they may
or may not have made a mistake.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
He could be there their Carson wins. We never know.
It may be this new head coach regime.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
He starts fulfilling the potential being the first overall pick,
but that contract could be an albatross around their neck
if he doesn't take the next step forward.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Got it. So all those hurts option bonuses, they're already
almost in effect, right because I'm just looking at the
contract on how it's broken down. Like the Eagles, basically
they're gonna pick them up.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
They're gonna excise the options. Right.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Sometimes they have a day they could not physically cut
hurts that they wanted to because of all the proation
already in the contract, it would all get accelerated. It
would absolutely destroy their cap.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, well you can't. You couldn't do it.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Plus, in some cases you have a non exercise fee
where if the player is still on the roster of
the day after the option exercise period expires, then it
gets pro rated.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Anyway, you just don't get the extra year.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
So even in these illustrations, if the base salary is
not listed and it's just listed as an option bonus,
there actually is a base salary there if the option
bonus isn't activated by the team. Is basically what you're
telling me. Yes, I got you. Now that makes more Okay,
Now I get it. Go ahead, Paul. I hope, hope
everyone else understood that it's complicated. I get it now.
Hopefully everyone else does too, Paul, Go ahead, Joel.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
I think I have an easier question for you. In
each of the past two seasons, we have seen injury
guarantees grab the headlines, first with Russell Wilson and Denver,
then with Daniel Jones with the Giants, prompting teams to
bench starting quarterbacks and then get rid of them. Now,
I don't seem to remember injury guarantees and contracts being
(13:31):
that big a deal in years past.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Is this something that is more of a recent and
more common development.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And then the other part to the question is if
I'm a team, rather than get caught jammed up in one.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Of these things, I mean, it seems to me I
would be telling the player go to one of those
insurance companies and get your own insurance policy out, like
many of the college players do when they're coming out
because they want to get injury protection, because it seems
to me if a team puts an injury guarantee in there,
they're putting themselves at risk of these situations like what
(14:04):
we've seen with Wilson and Jones.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
You wouldn't get you wouldn't get a playgrounds any levers
to sign a contract. Someone would laugh in your face
and go, no, that's that's a non starter. In Wilson's case,
when he did the deal, it seemed like a market
deal based on who he was. We didn't know he
(14:27):
was gonna fall flat on his face in Denver. He
already had his twenty twenty four salary fully guaranteed, so
they were stuck with that. They were trying to avoid
a twenty twenty five guarantee kicking in.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
They didn't want him to get hurt.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
And then the way his contract was structured, if he
was on the roster passed a certain date, the twenty
twenty five injury guarantee became a full guarantee, which is
why they cut him when they did. Then russell Wilson
contract when it was signed, it was always they much
safer betting the Daniels Owns contract, but same concept, we
got to bench him because we don't want him to
(15:05):
get hurt and then potentially have the injury guarantee come
into play. The Saints almost were in that same position
because Derek Carr didn't finish the season healthy. Let's say
his hand wasn't healed.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
By and they were wanting to get rid of him.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
By the time the full guarantee kicked in, which is
like the fifth day of league here, they would.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Have been stuck. You guys actually had a situation.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
A couple of years ago where you had an injury
guarantee dispute for a player. Logan Ryan had an injury
guarantee in his contract.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
The Giants released him.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
He had surgery on I think his hand, and they
were claiming he was healthy.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
He said he was still hurt.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
It would end up being a grievance, and when you
follow a grievance for disputed himount sits on your cap.
They ultimately settled for less than what he would have
gotten if he won, because if the Johnson one would
have been zero.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
So they ultimately ended up doing a settlement.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
But that's the case where it did have some capitaliplications,
where an injury guarantee came into effect for for you
guys a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Have you seen joel more guaranteed money coming into a
lot of these contracts since Deshaun Watson. I know, obviously
we haven't seen many other fully guaranteed deals Kirk Cousins.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
You will see one with Tom soon.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
But right, and I don't think we are either, but
especially and we've seen this big flow of quarterback money coming.
But what if any repercussions have you seen from that
Watson contract? Which is why I think so many owners
are upset about it, is they thought, oh, here comes here,
you know, here comes everyone else demanding this stuff. Have
you seen a big move in that direction with how
some of these contracts are structured or or has that
(16:52):
really been a one off as we thought it was
going to be.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
It was a one off. Those were kirk Cousins. It
was a one off. In twenty eighteen, he signed a
fully guaranteed contract with the Vikings, and then the next
two guys up didn't hold up there into the bargain.
The Falcons held the line with Matt Ryan got a
conventional contract, and then Aaron Rodgers was a Green Betty
conventional contract.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
It's dead, Lamar Jackson fought the best fight.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
He ended up playing out his fifty year option trying
to get a fully guaranteed contract, and their owner, Steve
BUSCOTTI was the one who was the most vocal after
Deshaun Watson got the bully guaranteed contract. Once Jalen Hurts
the conventional deal, Lamar Jackson fell in line. In the interim,
you had guys who didn't hold up there into the bargain.
(17:38):
I didn't think Kylin Murray'd ever get won a fully
guaranteed contract. I thought Russell Wilson was a guy who
could have because they gave up an arm andale leg
to get him to Denver, so he had a ton
of leverage and did a conventional deal. So it's a
dead horse, particularly with the way Deshaun Watson has played.
He's a cautionary tale for why you don't do it.
(18:01):
I wrote an article yesterday on CBS Sports hypothetical on
how you could have had one. What if Lamar Jackson
had played out his play on two franchise tacks like
Kirk Cousins did, and he was going to be a
free agent this year twenty twenty five coming off an
MVP season and then the best season of his career,
he didn't win MVP. You get that guy in the
(18:23):
open market, you guys, probably would be a team bidding form.
The Raiders would be bidding for him, he'd have enough leverage,
or he would have gotten a fully guaranteed contract. It
would take a situation like that to get someone with
a fully guaranteed contract. We're not going to see one
anytime soon, Joel.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Each of the last two years when we've had you
on during this time of the calendar year, we've talked
about the devaluation of the running backs. And yet this
past season we saw the impact that free agent running
packs had on their new teams as they went deep
into the postseason. Obviously, Sakwon Barkley, one of Lombardi trump
(19:00):
Do you suspect that the tide on the value of
running backs is now going to turn.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
As the result, Yeah, it's gonna turn because it's it's
a copycat league. And you saw that Derrick Henry has
a ton of gas left in the tank. Although he's
got a lot of mileage, had the second best statistical
year of his career. I think he had this average
more yards per carry than he ever did in his career,
and Sa Kuan had an all time season. It may
(19:28):
see the benefit this year in the draft. The running
backs may be drafted sooner than they had been in
the past. Derrick Henry may get a new deal because
he's a bargain. It was sixteen million over two years.
Max is out at twenty. He's underpaid. When you've got
guys like James Connor, who was signing for almost ten
million a year. The guys who are really gonna reap
(19:49):
the benefit are even eligible to sign extensions. It's gonna
be Jon Robinson after the twenty twenty five regular season.
He was a first round pick in twenty twenty three,
and Jamier Gibbs, also a first round pick in twenty
twenty three. The Lions did an extension with David Montgomery
for nine million a year. Those two guys are gonna
(20:10):
move the needle. James Cook is talking about wanting fifteen
million a year. I don't know if he's gonna get that,
but he's gonna get more than he would have without
what happened this year. Even had in twenty twenty three,
the best running back in the league went to the
Super Bowl. That was Christian McCaffrey, and then they redid
his deal of two years left, where the new money
(20:32):
averages nineteen million. So yeah, you're starting to see a trend.
Because you get to the Super Bowl with the best
running back in one year, you win the super Bowl
the next year with the best running back the team
which on paper should have won the super Bowl, but.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I always shoot themselves in the foot.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Baltimore had had the second best running back this year,
So yeah, you're starting to see a little bit of
a resurgence.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Johnson. The podcast is to you by Citizens, the official
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Speaker 3 (21:11):
I'm your man.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
But if you're wondering about a long term financial plan,
you should talk to Citizens.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Hey, I can also talk long care.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I'd like to learn about a Mollia routine.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yes, I knew I could help make sense of your
money with Citizens Giants through other positions. I want to
touch on your Corey before we move on to the
specific free agent class this year, are guards and defensive
tackles starting to push up a little bit? I feel
like teams are valuing interior pass rush a little bit more.
Therefore the guards have to be valued more as well
(21:42):
in terms of how teams are viewing, protecting and getting
after the quarterback.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Well, I think it's a little bit of misknown or
that the interior pass rush market is now being valued
in a new way that it has in the past.
I represented a guy, John Randor who at one time
became the highest paid defensive player in the league, and
then the Incals barely dry on that deal before another
(22:07):
interior defensive lineman, Warren sapp top that deal. So it's
not like it's a new phenomenon. That was a late
nineties when that happened. Yeah, for the interior offensive lineman,
you're starting to see those salaries creep a little closer
to the tackle salaries. Actually, the top of the guard market,
(22:27):
if you take Pennay Sewell out of the equation for
right tackles, you've got it's pretty comparable. I expect Trace Smith,
who's going to get franchised by the Kansas City Chiefs
at twenty three point four million, will become the highest
paid guard if he so many signs a long term
deal that's currently landing Dickerson at twenty one million per year.
(22:50):
But yeah, and the interior offensive line is very important.
Look at the Eagles. That team is built in the trenches.
They have defensive line depths coming waves, but the offensive
line they stick a lot of money in that. They've
got two twenty million dollars per year tackles. They got
a twenty million dollar per year guard. So yeah, that's
(23:11):
gonna be That's very important, taking care of your offensive line.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And then one other position real quickly, Joel wide receiver.
We've talked about this a lot. There so many good wies.
Is not a great wide receiver draft class this year,
but we've had a bunch in a row. Are teams
going to start being a little bit more hesitant paying
wide receiver is at the top of the market or
is that trend and goeing to continue? We saw Ceedee Lamb,
justin Jefferson, all those guys get paid in now Jamar
chases up next.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
I would think that it's got to slow down a
little bit because the market's really exploded the past couple
of years. Travis Hunter is interesting from this perspective that
he wants to be a full time two way player,
which I don't think that's humanly possible in the NFL,
But from an economic standpoint, if he's got to choose
(23:55):
a position, although top cornerbacks are a more scarce commodity,
I'd want to be a wide receiver. There aren't any
twenty five million dollars per year cornerbacks, but you've got
I can count. I run out of fingers counting the
number of twenty five million dollars per year wide receivers.
(24:17):
The top of the secondary wide receiver market, I mean,
number two receivers is Jalen Waddle in twenty eight point
twenty five million per year. So that's more than the
top shutdown corners make. And you already have the Cincinnati
coming out last week to the Combine giving away the
farm in terms of leverage, saying, oh, Jamar Chase is
(24:38):
gonna be the highest paid nine quarterback. That's currently thirty
five million per year by Justin Jefferson. Typically it's an
edge rusher that's the highest paid nine quarterback. If I'm
Jamar Chase, I'm like okay, thank you. I'm just gonna
let everything shake out. I'm not doing it a deal
until August. I'm gonna let Miles Garrett get resolved because
(25:00):
if he's somehow is still in Cleveland, he's got two
years left on his deal, he's underpaid. He was the
first twenty five million dollar per year nine quarterback. That's
gonna be way up there. If David Mullagetta is controlling
the negotiation night, not Michael Parsons, who has talked about
taking a hometown discount.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
That's going to be more than Justin Jefferson. TJ.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Watt isn't a contract year. He set the nine quarterback
market last time. So I'm letting all these guys go first,
and whatever number that is, I want more than that
as opposed to going today.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Like say you did a deal today for Jamar Shakes.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
If you adjust Justin Jefferson for contract for salary cap inflation.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You're at thirty eight point five million per year. If
you put that.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
Number out there today, those other guys are going to
try to topic. So I let them do the heavy
lifting move the market and not come in afterwards. If
I'm Jamaar Chhaks particularly since Duke Tobin said he's gonna
be the highest paid guy. Self inflicted wound by the
same Eddie beingles By saying that I think it, don't
say it all.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Right, Joel.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
We know the Giants' top priorities to land a quarterback,
and Joe Shane, the general manager, says he wants a
guy who could win games this year, and that's going
to be a veteran. We all assume Sam Donald's going
to be at the top of the free agent list
of quarterbacks and he'll get the most.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
I don't know if.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
You've got a number in mind for him, But who
do you suppose would be on the next tier of
prices for quarterbacks? And what kind of number are we
talking about that the Giants might have to spend, assuming
they don't make a trade with somebody.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Well, you guys are an interesting position because the self
interest of Joe Saying and Brian Daball aren't necessarily what's
in the best interest of the Giants' long term. Because,
for the life of me, you lose eleven of your
last twelve games, you don't win a division game, you
(26:55):
have three wins, and you still keep your jobs. So
there's a lot of pressure to turn that thing around.
If it gets off to a slow start, they're both
gonna be gone. So they're not thinking long term. They're
thinking survival, and that isn't necessarily what may be best
for the Giants.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Now.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
If I'm saying darnold the first thing out of my mouth,
If you guys are trying to sign me or you
have interest, you paid jan Daniel Jones forty million a
year two years ago, so we.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Gotta be north to that.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
That deal will come back to bite you with him now.
I was surprised you were so heavily in on Matthew Stafford,
given he's thirty seven. Who knows how many years he's
going to play. I know there's connection with his brother
in law being on a staff, but that kind of
shows you that they're thinking, we got to do something
today or we won't be here tomorrow. I know there's
(27:48):
the rumors that Aaron Rodgers. I'm not all that enthusiastic
about that, just because he's forty one. He's a year
to year proposition and he's the grim reaper. Mike McCarthy
got fired when he was in Green Bay. Robert Salah
got fired in New York. So you bring him in.
(28:09):
The track record is you get fired with Aaron Rodgers.
He's not the I'm just kind of saying that in jest.
He's not the super Bowl. He's not the MVP League MVP.
Aaron Rodgers that he was earlier in his career, he
did play better, saying after the years looked like he
kind of gotten a little better with the recovery from
(28:30):
the Achilles tear, but he's not as mobile as he
used to be. Maybe because he's at the tail end
of his career. He's made all the money he's needed to.
He gave money back to go to the Jets. That
he's going to be more affordable. But I'm not all
that enthusiastic about that. You guys had some interest in
Russell Wilson last year. I'm not all that enthusiastic about
(28:50):
that either, because of the way the season ended. They
couldn't score more than fourteen points a game down the stretch.
So then you got the draft. You're sitting third. Do
you just let the draft shake out the way it's
going to or do you try to move up to
number one? Because the Titans have said they're open to
(29:11):
trading that'd probably be a steep price to go from
three to one. If I'm the Titans, I want the
twenty twenty six first round pick. I don't want to
give that up. But if you think I'm not gonna
be here if this things don't turn around, I don't
care if I give up to twenty twenty six first
round pick, meaning Joe Shane. Maybe the Titans can wrangle
(29:32):
that out, because I know when Mitchell Trubisky was drafted,
the Bears went from three to two, and I think
that to give up a third and a fourth that
year and a third to next and that was go
one spot.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
So it's gonna be a pretty steep price to move up.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Or do you just wait hope cam Ward drops to three,
or if he doesn't, do you overdraft Shadua Sanders and
or do you just take the best guy that's available,
Because if a quarterback goes one, then you're gonna get
either Travis Hunter or Abdul Carter at three, who will
(30:05):
be huge, impact, impact players. So maybe you sign a
VET and then you don't take a quarterback in the
first round and hope Jackson darters there at thirty four.
I would be more intrigued by trying to get Justin
Fields to come in on a Sam Donald type deal.
Although the Steelers are probably gonna keep one of those
two guys Fields or Wilson. They're probably leaning towards Fields.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
But he's young. He would be cheap relatively speaking.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
Donald played for ten million last year on a one,
so I might be looking for someone like that if
I kicked the tire, at least kick the tires on Fields.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Follow up on the quarterbacks real quick. Where do you
think the money would land on? Wilson and Rodgers as
older players that have made a lot of money in
their careers. And then that's the thing.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
It depends on if they're willing to if they go,
you know what, I've gotten my full market value earlier.
I don't need to get every dollar. I don't know
if they would do that, But the thing is the
quarterback market. If you look at the average salary for
what the veteran contracts are, and that is skewed because
(31:12):
you got nine guys making fifty million dollars a year
fifty million per year or more, you don't really have
a middle class. Gino Smith is the middle class and
he's going to get raised from twenty five million per year.
If he's still in Seattle this year or traded at someplace,
he's in a contract year. So that's kind of the
closest thing you have to a middle class is the
twenty five mark. Maybe they're willing to come in around that, hopefully,
(31:36):
But I really wouldn't want to pay Russell Wilson thirty
million out of one or sixty over two. I wouldn't
be enthusiastic about that. Rogers was scheduled to make thirty
seven and a half million and at forty one. I
don't want to pay him that either. I don't want
to pay him over thirty at forty one. So it's
kind of you're caught between a rock and a hard place.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, and that might follow up. There's two veterans I
know some reporters have mentioned could become available, Kirk Cousins
and Derek Carr. How do you view those situations?
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Oh, Carr's not getting out of there just because they
kick the can down the road so much that they
don't really have a choice but to kick the can
down the road again. I expect that they're going to
restructure pick up about thirty one million dollars a cap
space and then worry.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
About next year later.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Cousins is intriguing from this standpoint. At first, I'm not
buying what Raheem Morris is saying, Oh, we can have
him as our backup under his contract, you know, making
forty on a forty five million dollars per year contract.
I'm not buying that he's going to be the backup
because if he's on the roster after the fifth day
(32:44):
of the league year, then you've guaranteed ten for next year.
That's ten more than you have to So it would
be like Russell Wilson if they cut him. There's no
he's not going to be a trade market phonks. He
didn't play well last year. Plus he has no trade clause,
so he would signed for his league minimum war one
point two five five million. Yeah, for Cousins at one
point two five five million, I'd take a flyer on that.
(33:06):
Now here's where Cousins has made a mistake. He's too
nice of a guy, and teams mistake niceness for weakness.
What he really needed to do to set himself up
for the future. And you make sure he was getting
out of Atlanta and you wouldn't have any of this. Uh, oh,
we could have him as a backup if he had
been just a major mal content as soon as he
(33:30):
got benched, wasn't helping Michael Pennix. There's no way they'd
want him in the locker room right now. They'd be like,
we got to get this dude out of here. We'll
bite the bullet, we'll cut him. There's no way he's
gonna poison or he's gonna he's gonna end up being
a negative influence in our locker room. He was a
continent professional, and it could end up costing him to
(33:51):
the point where they may decide, you know what, he'll be, Oh,
he'll be okay with it. If I'm the agent, I'm
raising holy hill from the standpoint that you lied to
me when I signed there.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
You didn't give us any inkling you're going to draft
a quarterback. He may have made a.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Different decision if he'd known that that was on the table.
Mike McCartney is someone who gets players all the time.
He's aiding Hutchinson's agent. I'd remind them you have to
deal with me the future, so you need to do
right by Cousins today. And we won't have a problem tomorrow, because,
in the back of my mind, if this thing went
wrong and Cousins is still on the Falcons in twenty
(34:28):
twenty five, the first chance I would get to screw Atlanta,
I would or all things being equal, I would never
send anyone to the Falcons again or any place where
heem Morris ever, was that Terry Fontineau wasn't the future.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Glad we know how you feel, Joel.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Hey, I got to ask you about the corners before
I cap off my questions here, Joel. And that is
the Giants also have put a premium on trying to
add a corner. Now we don't know if they're going
to get Travis Hung during the draft or not. And
the draft is also not very deep on high quality corners.
The free agent market has a handful of guys who
(35:08):
are probably going to rise to the top. How much
money are you thinking you'd have to commit to get
a starting caliber corner? And do you think there might
actually be two levels, guys who were going to be
like cream with the cherry on top, and guys who
may be just the cream That might be a little
less expensive for the Giants to talk to well, you.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
Would kind of be hoping these guys would priced themselves
out of the market, and then as the first waiver
free agency goes that they have to readjust expectations. There
is a deal done late in the twenty twenty four year,
which I'm sure all these guys are looking at. Yeah,
I'm more De Lannere signed what they got an extension
(35:47):
from the forty nine ers for seventeen point eight million
per year, So I'm sure these guys have taken note
of that particular deal. You've got guys like Carlton Davis
who did a three year deal and twenty twenty two
for almost fifteen million per year. He's not going to
take a pay cut. Saveria's Ward had a bad season
(36:09):
by his standards because of extenuating circumstances with his young
daughter passing away. He was on a deal averaging thirteen
point five. That Leannewer deal will be important for him
because that was the other corner in San Francisco. They're
in the twenty eight twenty nine year old range, so
that's getting into that danger zone territory. Byron Murphy did
(36:30):
everything you're supposed to do in a contract year first
pro Bowl ton of picks. If I'm representing Murphy can
place in the slot and on the outside I want.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I'm targeting twenty million per year. I don't know if
I get there, but that's what i'd be targeting.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Two guys want to throw at you, DJ Reed and
a Sante Samuel Junior, or two guys that interest me.
Samuel is a little bit younger, he missed a lot
of last year to injury and then re and Island. Though,
like guys like Paulson Adebo and Christian Fulton, right, those
are other outside corners that that kind of interest me
a little bit, Joel, I'm wondering where you think those
guys might fall.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Fulton's probably the cheapest of him.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
I think he was on a one year proven deal
for like three three and a half million last year.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Probably you probably don't even have to get to ten
on him.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Sante Samuel is probably thinking notwithstanding the durability fourteen to
fifteen million per year DJ Reid, He's probably thinking, hey,
I played an opposite Sauce Gardener and that means he's
not getting the massipianst the top receiver. He's thinking, hey,
ACT had a better year than Sauce Guardener because he
actually for his he had a down year by his standards,
(37:37):
so he's probably thinking that same neighborhood as the guys
I mentioned earlier, Ward Murphy Davis.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
How'd I'm get in here? If you're lined up here,
you gotta go over the middle with at the score?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Great?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
How do we make that happen?
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I don't know, Bud Citizens? Does it makes sense of
your money with Citizens?
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Official Bank of Eli Manning? How about defensive tackles, Joel?
It looks like Olsa Digizho is not going to hit
the market. It sounds like the Cowboys are recording this
on Tuesday around eleven thirty Eastern time, that he's going
to get franchised. But there are still some other pretty
decent players on the market. Where do you think that's
gonna land? Milton Williams I assume is going to go
well over twenty a year once you get past him.
(38:19):
What are we looking at a defensive tackle? For guys
that can play next to Dexter Lawrence?
Speaker 4 (38:24):
Well, how much do you want to commit to that position?
Because you already have Lawrence who's well over twenty million
per year, You've got an edge rusher making close to thirty,
So how much do you really want to commit to
the defensive line. Maybe you're looking at someone you can
(38:46):
get in the ten to fifteen range, a guy, the
older guy that maybe you can get cheaper. I might
want to kick the tires on Javon Hargrave because he's
getting cut from the forty nine ers. He's coming off
a deal averaging over twenty million per year, but the
year before he was healthy was still pretty good. That
(39:07):
like a short term two year deal, maybe twelve to
fifteen million for him, maybe something, because because he's the
guy that when he's healthy, he's going to get you
eight nine to ten sacks.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Joe, what do you think PJ. Hill could command on
the market. Uh, he's going to be looking north to
fifteen most likely.
Speaker 6 (39:25):
Wow, M yeah looking I didn't say get Remember, I'm
looking at it from how much would I want to me?
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Joel? This is a very dangerous free agent class because
you don't have a lot of big names and there's
a lot of money with the cap going up around
what do you think this is going to look like?
Is the first wave? You are going to be slow?
I know we always say that and then day one
and then negotiating period money.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
There you go around.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
The first wave never is slow is the question of
whether teams will have a little bit of discipline because
you're real So it's always a seller's market during the
first wave or free agency, it's a buyer's market after
you get past that point. If I'm the Giants, I
kind of try to take a page from the Commanders
(40:14):
because look where they were last year. Nobody expected them
to be in the NFC Conference Championship.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Let alone make the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
They went out and signed a bunch of free agents
on one two year deals and turned it around. And
those guys weren't high ticket items. So if Joe Shane
and his scouting apartment have done their jobs, they're looking
to get value, not make splashes.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Final one from a Joe, and I appreciate all your time.
You've been awesome. Guard Giants into starting right guard, and
they could use a wide receiver too to play across
some league neighbors. Any guys at those two spots that
you think could be of a good value for the
Giants in free agency.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
Well, I'm assuming Evan Neil's going to be your right tackle.
You're not going to think about moving him to guard.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Well, it'll probably be illuminaa right tackle this year, and
they're kind of they think maybe he could be guard
tackle bolt to see.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Well, then maybe you allow him the first crack at
the right guard thing and hope he's Mackai Beckton part
two and that would solve the problem. You're definitely not
picking up his fifth year option. But speaking of which,
McKay Beckton is up. He's probably looking at Hey, I
want to I think I'm Kevin Dotson part two. Kevin
Dotson probably was gonna get cut if Pittsburgh didn't trade
(41:29):
him to the Rams. He goes out and signs for
sixteen seventeen million per year. There's actually I don't know
if he can play on the right side. Well, they
moved into center last year. Jonah Jackson, he's on the
block with the Rams. He could be available. Will Freeze
type guy might be someone, but you saw last year
(41:52):
like Damian Lewis got like thirteen fourteen million per year.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
So about Tevin Jenkins, Joel, do you think he's gonna.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
He's gonna he's gonna be Yeah, he's going to be
north to the passion right. Yeah, he's going to be
north to that. Yeah, he'll be north of now.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Choles Zeitler's on the longer end of the stick. I mean,
he's been around a long job but still playing well.
Is he going to command much money That'll.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Be less than ten, That'll be less than ten.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, yeah, I think that that could be good value
if you want to listen.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
But if I'm him, I'm trying to stay put because
at this point.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
In my career, I want to win. No offense. But
nobody's pinking you guys to make the playoffs next year.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
No, I get that watch res Ever, two guys that
can compliment neighbors, well, you have.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
One that I think is going to get overpaid in
Darius Slayton.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
So I'm penciling him as gone, how much you guy?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
He's gonna command.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Someone who can stretch the field. I'm looking at this
bad deal that the Jaguars wish they'd never done with
Gabe Davis. That averages thirteen million per year and it
maxes through the incentives and escalators at almost seventeen.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
He's going to be looking at that.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
He's going to looking at Darnelle Mooney getting thirteen million
per year. He's probably priced himself out of New York.
The wide receiver market is interesting from this standpoint. You
got a bunch of seasoned, accomplished guys who have flaws
that are gonna be on the market. Those guys, some
of those guys aren't gonna get paid. Stefan Dix coming
(43:20):
off with a knee injury, Mark Cooper didn't do much
whether he was in Cleveland or Buffalo. Dere Hopkins was
in that like receiver by committee thing in Kansas City
after he got out of Tennessee. Cooper cup mayor may
not get cut. So you've got a bunch of older
guys who could be a good compliment also mentor to
(43:48):
neighbors that maybe cheaper than they were ever anticipating they
would be. Not everybody's gonna get paid. You also got
Tyler Lockett who's probably gonna get cut from Seattle. He
was he scheduled to make seventeen May thirteen last year,
but he's a third receiver now up in Seattle. So
(44:08):
those early late twenties, early thirty guys, they're gonna be
a bunch of those guys out there.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
If you'll have to wait those guys out right, Joe,
you're not gonna be able to strike quickly because the
prices will be higher.
Speaker 4 (44:21):
Well, their prices are gonna come down because those guys aren't.
They're gonna have a root awaking some of those guys. Yeah,
because Mark Cooper thinks he's gonna get twenty million a year,
I don't see that happening. Stefan Diggs ain't gonna get
that coming off of the knee injury. Then the one
who will get whatever he wants most likely will be
Devonte Adams because he's the most productive one. That deal
(44:43):
was set up. When it was signed, you had two
cosmetic years to inflate the average, whether he was still
at the Raiders or not. He wasn't gonna be playing
for thirty six and a half million in twenty twenty
five and twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
They're gonna have.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
To either renegotiate that or he was gonna hit the
open market. The Jets will cut him. He's the one
who should be over twenty million per year. I'm not
even thinking you have a shot at Chris Godwin. Before
I know he's always he's injury prone, But before he
got hurt, he was one of the league leaders in
receptions and receiving yards.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
He's gonna be He's going to be a different stratusphere.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
Joel, you're the best. Tell our fans anything. They should
have their eyes out for anything you're doing up to
or you want to promote it. The floors will yes.
Speaker 4 (45:24):
This a busy week for me for CBS. As I
said earlier, I got this what if Lamar Jackson article
if he had followed the Cousins route, played under franchise
tags was free, how much could he command? I'm not
going to give away the whole farm, but it would
be a fully guaranteed contract. Read the article to find
out whether how much he would reset the market. Two,
(45:48):
I'd usually do target prices, which is what I would
want if I represented offensive defensive players, as I'm doing
offensive players tomorrow, ten of them defensive players on Friday.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Awesome, Joel, you're the best. Thanks so much of the time,
and we'll talk soon. Enjoy the chaos next week.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Oh we'll do. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Joe Corey on the Giants little podcast brought you by
Citizens Official Banking the Giants. We'll see you next time.
Everybody
It's time to get inside the Giants huts.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Let's Giants do I like it out on the Giants Moubul,
give me some job.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Part of the Giants podcast Network. Let's roll. Welcome to
another edition of the Giants Httle podcast, brought to you
by Citizens, the official bank of the Giants. John Schmelk
pulled Theatino hopping on for this episode. Joined by front
of the program. He's probably been joining us every year
for a good eight years now. Joe Cory, who former
NFL agent h and now he works for CBS Sports
analyzing contracts and all the like. Joel, Good to see him, man.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Good to see you guys. How you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
We're doing great? All right? So contracts have become more
complicated over the past few years. You know, I think
we all kind of have a handle on them. How
I worked with Sony bonuses, parations, roster bonuses, injury guarantees,
all that stuff has been pretty clear. But now teams
are pretty liberal now in terms of adding Voidier's Joel
doing things called option bonuses. So before we open up
(00:51):
to the fridging class, I want to touch on that first. Uh,
Let's start with the void yeer situation. I think fans
understand why you put void years on. You could basically
spread out a signing bonus over years after the contract
is up, so you basically spread out the total value
contract over each year, giving you more cap space in
individual years. Why do you think teams are being more
(01:12):
liberal with using these void years and putting them on
before contracts even signed in a lot of cases. And
do you think, given how the cap just keeps going
up even more than teams suspect that more teams are
going to adopt a strategy and is it a sound
strategy moving forward for a lot of these teams.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Well, you didn't see a lot of teams doing void years.
Some did, like the Saints the Cowboys before the pandemic
year when you had the cap go down, that necessitated
a lot of teams deciding, like the Steelers had never
done avoid year in a contract, to put voiding dummy
years in contracts just to be able to manage the
(01:50):
fact that we lost like sixteen million cap space for
the previous year. Now, once teams have gotten more comfortable
doing it, it's become basically the norm. Some teams have
gone to an extreme where they're not only doing voiding
dummy years. They're putting a bunch of option bonuses in contracts.
(02:12):
I'm explaining to what an option bonus is. An option
bonus is essentially like a second signing bonus after either
the second or third year of the contract, where you
pick up a real year or fake year down the road.
The option bonus is pro rated beginning in the year
you exercise the option, and it's pro rated just like
(02:33):
signing bonus for the life of the contract, up to
a maximum of five years. So you used to see
maybe one option bonus in a contract. I remember when
Joe Flacco became the highest paid player in the league,
and I think twenty thirteen, that was he had two
option bonuses in a contract. That was highly unusual. That
(02:53):
was still the case up until a couple of years ago. Now,
the guy responsible for this whole multiple option bonus concept
is Howie Roseman. He's pushing the envelope and away most
people don't. He has three, four or five option bonuses
in contracts. So it's essentially like you're doing a pre restructure,
(03:14):
because if you did a regular contract no option bonuses,
you might take everything but the minimum based salary then
convert it into signing bonus to pick up cap room
for that particular year. When you do the option bonuses,
typically you're taking the base salary down to the minimum.
Everything else is signing bonus. The presumption is you're going
(03:38):
to exercise an option, so for the cap you automatically
get the cap treatment like the option has been exercise.
You pick the right guys, it's no problem because like
Jalen Hurts, they're probably going to extend him at some
point of all those fake dumb years we turned into
real contract years and extension at some point down the road.
(03:59):
But if you pick the wrong guy, not only do
you have signing bonus proation, then you've got option bonus proation,
and that keeps adding up, so you could have multiple
dead money if you've got a guy that didn't pan
out you started doing that with. Or there's a case
this year there's someone who wants to trade where the
team decided to start doing these multiple option bonuses in
(04:22):
a restructure contemplating these eventually going to sign a long
term deal. That's Miles Garrett. He wants out of Cleveland.
If Cleveland decided to trade him before June second, and
they have no designs. I wanted to trade it right now,
right now. This is a high stakes game of chicken.
(04:42):
Let's see who blinks. But his cap number is like
seventeen to nine because of the previous signing bonus option
and then the option bonuses in his contract, the dead
money to trade him before June second. Right now, if
they wanted to trade him before the fifth day of
the league year, win a small option bonus kicks in,
it would be thirty six point two.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Million to all that money would pro rate up the
same way or yeah, so they're gonna have a much
an eight way of signing bonus would.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
So they're gonna have eighteen million more on the cap
than their state of cap number right now to trade him.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Before the fifth day of the league year.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Now after that, when that other five million hits, add
five more million to the dead money. So if there's
going to be a trade, most likely it'll be after
June one, and then they don't get twenty twenty five
draft capital. But they clearly were thinking Miles Garrett, as
Andrew Beer, the GM said we be going from Cleveland
to Canton. Garrett has other ideas, but that's the case
(05:41):
where they thought they picked the right guy, but really
it looks like now they may have picked the wrong guy.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Paul, I have two follow ups on this real quick, Okay,
if you don't mind. Yeah, So I'm looking at Jalen
Hurts's contract for an example, Joel, and I'm gonna use
that as a basis because I think that's kind of
what started this whole trend. Right, So, I got two questions.
I'll ask them one of the time as they're complicated.
So right now I'm looking at Jalen Hurts's contract, and
to your point, he is a minimum base salary. His
base salary is never over one point five million dollars
(06:07):
and everything is in pro rated signing bonus, which is
all under five million, and then these option bonuses kick in, right,
and I'm looking at it right now. They have this
is according to spot track, they have four void years
at the end of this contract starting in twenty twenty nine,
with values of thirty eight, thirty, twenty and ten million dollars.
So when he's not even signed to the roster. Two questions. One,
(06:28):
Let's say they end up signing him to an extension, right,
what happens to those void years? Does whatever the extension is,
and the amount of money on those years gets added
on to those void years. Do those void years stay
there with those numbers even when he signs that contract extension.
How does that work?
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Uh, they'll get negotiated into real years. This wouldn't be
the first time of the void year you've been turned
into a real year. Drew Brees's last couple of contracts
with the Saints, and the Saints from one of these teams,
you've always kicked the can down the road more than
to anybody else. They stuck voiding dummy years in his
contracts where it was getting close to the wire. I
remember there's one year where his contracts avoided the last
(07:12):
day of that league year, and they got a contract
done like two days before the league year ended, and
they turned those dummy voting years into real years, negotiated
it those into real salaries. What some teams will do
is they'll stick some crazy number in the void years,
because if it's you can only give someone a salary
(07:33):
increase on a veteran contract once and then you got
to wait twelve months. But if you have these and
then they look at the salary increase, it's really they
look at the aggriate cat numbers of what years are left,
and they include the voiding dummy years is real years.
So how you can do an increase twice is you
stick like seventy five million the void dummy years. So
(07:55):
when you look at the aggurate money left, although it's
not real money, it's counting his real money for these rules,
then you're not really violating that particular waiting period. And
you could do one four months later as opposed to
waiting for the for the year to end for that
was twelve months.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Stand So, just as an example, like Dak Prescott this year, right,
he'd avoid you at the end of his last contract
and the Cowboys extended him. That's why his cap number
this year and the Cowboys will get it down obviously
is like ninety million, right, because you had the money
left over from the last contract in addition to what
they gave him on the new deal. That's why that
number for him is so big this year, correct, right, because.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
He was in his contract year twenty twenty four for
his contract year, and they had like voiding twenty five,
twenty six, twenty seven years because if he had played
out his contract, they're going to have like forty point
five million in debt money if he let the contract
with the void years expire, so they turned those into
real years. The reason is Captain number was so high
is because you had pro racist shows associated with those
(08:50):
void dummy years, which stays stays intact, but Dallas kicks
the can down the road. I expect that they're going
to they stuck dummy voting years in this contract as well,
which contemplates they're going to do restructures like.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
They've always done.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
So he's not gonna be playing on a ninety million
dollar cap, yet they're gonna chop that thing way down, all.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Right, now, final question on the void years, and then
Paul I apologize for answer asking a bunch of the
start of this. Why would a player like Jalen Hurts
agree to these option bonuses is my question because to
your point, they don't become guaranteed, and a lot of
times it's two years in advance, right, You got to
pick up this option bonus two years in advance, right,
And that's kind of how it works.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Like usually a year in advance, Usually you pick it
up the year it's coming up. Because right now, like
he's got one for twenty twenty five, so it's to
exercise and option. Usually the period's the first to five
or seven days of the league year, and some, like
Aaron Rodgers' case, you've had long windows because he's old older,
so it's been up until the day of the first
(09:50):
regular season game, So you pick up a future year three, four,
five years down the road. But it's advantageous for the
player from this standpoint. If he's the wrong guy, they're
gonna be a ton of cap consequences to release him,
and you probably have to use a posting one designation
because you've got pro ration from signing bonus proation from
(10:13):
the first sign first option bonus, second option bonus that
keeps stacking up.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
The Jaguars player's thinking, this team's not gonna cut me.
Even though these option bonuses haven't kicked in because of
the previous structure of the contract, it's so onerous from
a cap perspective, they basically have to pick up these
option bonuses, is what.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Yeah, Well, the way it works though, it's typically your
salary is X, and your salary will reduce down to
your league minimum if the option bonus is picked up.
So there's a reason the team will pick it up
because from a cap standpoint, the presumption is you are
going to pick it up, So they assume that the
(10:52):
cap treatment is.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
You have picked it up.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
If you don't freat it, don't pick it up, then
say you had a forty million dollar base salary in
that it's reduced down to your league minimum and the
rest gets pro rated. If you don't pick it up,
then you're gonna have the forty million base salary on
the books in that particular year. So there's a huge
incentive for the team to go ahead and pick up
(11:15):
the option. Because Trevor Lawrence is this contract mimics this
Jalen Hurts contract with like multiple option bonuses and plus.
In these high end contracts, you're gonna have the salary
already fully guaranteed, or if it's not fully guaranteed as
signing in Lawrence's case, you have like the twenty twenty
(11:36):
seven base salary becomes fully guaranteed in twenty twenty six.
So you're kind of stuck. And his is more precarious
than Jalen Hurts. His Hurts just won a Super Bowl.
Trevor Lawrence, the jury is still out on him, but
he's a fifty five million per year, So they may
or may not have made a mistake.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
He could be there their Carson wins. We never know.
It may be this new head coach regime.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
He starts fulfilling the potential being the first overall pick,
but that contract could be an albatross around their neck
if he doesn't take the next step forward.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Got it. So all those hurts option bonuses, they're already
almost in effect, right because I'm just looking at the
contract on how it's broken down. Like the Eagles, basically
they're gonna pick them up.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
They're gonna excise the options. Right.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Sometimes they have a day they could not physically cut
hurts that they wanted to because of all the proation
already in the contract, it would all get accelerated. It
would absolutely destroy their cap.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, well you can't. You couldn't do it.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Plus, in some cases you have a non exercise fee
where if the player is still on the roster of
the day after the option exercise period expires, then it
gets pro rated.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Anyway, you just don't get the extra year.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
So even in these illustrations, if the base salary is
not listed and it's just listed as an option bonus,
there actually is a base salary there if the option
bonus isn't activated by the team. Is basically what you're
telling me. Yes, I got you. Now that makes more Okay,
Now I get it. Go ahead, Paul. I hope, hope
everyone else understood that it's complicated. I get it now.
Hopefully everyone else does too, Paul, Go ahead, Joel.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
I think I have an easier question for you. In
each of the past two seasons, we have seen injury
guarantees grab the headlines, first with Russell Wilson and Denver,
then with Daniel Jones with the Giants, prompting teams to
bench starting quarterbacks and then get rid of them. Now,
I don't seem to remember injury guarantees and contracts being
(13:31):
that big a deal in years past.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Is this something that is more of a recent and
more common development.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And then the other part to the question is if
I'm a team, rather than get caught jammed up in one.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Of these things, I mean, it seems to me I
would be telling the player go to one of those
insurance companies and get your own insurance policy out, like
many of the college players do when they're coming out
because they want to get injury protection, because it seems
to me if a team puts an injury guarantee in there,
they're putting themselves at risk of these situations like what
(14:04):
we've seen with Wilson and Jones.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
You wouldn't get you wouldn't get a playgrounds any levers
to sign a contract. Someone would laugh in your face
and go, no, that's that's a non starter. In Wilson's case,
when he did the deal, it seemed like a market
deal based on who he was. We didn't know he
(14:27):
was gonna fall flat on his face in Denver. He
already had his twenty twenty four salary fully guaranteed, so
they were stuck with that. They were trying to avoid
a twenty twenty five guarantee kicking in.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
They didn't want him to get hurt.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
And then the way his contract was structured, if he
was on the roster passed a certain date, the twenty
twenty five injury guarantee became a full guarantee, which is
why they cut him when they did. Then russell Wilson
contract when it was signed, it was always they much
safer betting the Daniels Owns contract, but same concept, we
got to bench him because we don't want him to
(15:05):
get hurt and then potentially have the injury guarantee come
into play. The Saints almost were in that same position
because Derek Carr didn't finish the season healthy. Let's say
his hand wasn't healed.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
By and they were wanting to get rid of him.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
By the time the full guarantee kicked in, which is
like the fifth day of league here, they would.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Have been stuck. You guys actually had a situation.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
A couple of years ago where you had an injury
guarantee dispute for a player. Logan Ryan had an injury
guarantee in his contract.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
The Giants released him.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
He had surgery on I think his hand, and they
were claiming he was healthy.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
He said he was still hurt.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
It would end up being a grievance, and when you
follow a grievance for disputed himount sits on your cap.
They ultimately settled for less than what he would have
gotten if he won, because if the Johnson one would
have been zero.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
So they ultimately ended up doing a settlement.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
But that's the case where it did have some capitaliplications,
where an injury guarantee came into effect for for you
guys a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Have you seen joel more guaranteed money coming into a
lot of these contracts since Deshaun Watson. I know, obviously
we haven't seen many other fully guaranteed deals Kirk Cousins.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
You will see one with Tom soon.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
But right, and I don't think we are either, but
especially and we've seen this big flow of quarterback money coming.
But what if any repercussions have you seen from that
Watson contract? Which is why I think so many owners
are upset about it, is they thought, oh, here comes here,
you know, here comes everyone else demanding this stuff. Have
you seen a big move in that direction with how
some of these contracts are structured or or has that
(16:52):
really been a one off as we thought it was
going to be.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
It was a one off. Those were kirk Cousins. It
was a one off. In twenty eighteen, he signed a
fully guaranteed contract with the Vikings, and then the next
two guys up didn't hold up there into the bargain.
The Falcons held the line with Matt Ryan got a
conventional contract, and then Aaron Rodgers was a Green Betty
conventional contract.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
It's dead, Lamar Jackson fought the best fight.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
He ended up playing out his fifty year option trying
to get a fully guaranteed contract, and their owner, Steve
BUSCOTTI was the one who was the most vocal after
Deshaun Watson got the bully guaranteed contract. Once Jalen Hurts
the conventional deal, Lamar Jackson fell in line. In the interim,
you had guys who didn't hold up there into the bargain.
(17:38):
I didn't think Kylin Murray'd ever get won a fully
guaranteed contract. I thought Russell Wilson was a guy who
could have because they gave up an arm andale leg
to get him to Denver, so he had a ton
of leverage and did a conventional deal. So it's a
dead horse, particularly with the way Deshaun Watson has played.
He's a cautionary tale for why you don't do it.
(18:01):
I wrote an article yesterday on CBS Sports hypothetical on
how you could have had one. What if Lamar Jackson
had played out his play on two franchise tacks like
Kirk Cousins did, and he was going to be a
free agent this year twenty twenty five coming off an
MVP season and then the best season of his career,
he didn't win MVP. You get that guy in the
(18:23):
open market, you guys, probably would be a team bidding form.
The Raiders would be bidding for him, he'd have enough leverage,
or he would have gotten a fully guaranteed contract. It
would take a situation like that to get someone with
a fully guaranteed contract. We're not going to see one
anytime soon, Joel.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Each of the last two years when we've had you
on during this time of the calendar year, we've talked
about the devaluation of the running backs. And yet this
past season we saw the impact that free agent running
packs had on their new teams as they went deep
into the postseason. Obviously, Sakwon Barkley, one of Lombardi trump
(19:00):
Do you suspect that the tide on the value of
running backs is now going to turn.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
As the result, Yeah, it's gonna turn because it's it's
a copycat league. And you saw that Derrick Henry has
a ton of gas left in the tank. Although he's
got a lot of mileage, had the second best statistical
year of his career. I think he had this average
more yards per carry than he ever did in his career,
and Sa Kuan had an all time season. It may
(19:28):
see the benefit this year in the draft. The running
backs may be drafted sooner than they had been in
the past. Derrick Henry may get a new deal because
he's a bargain. It was sixteen million over two years.
Max is out at twenty. He's underpaid. When you've got
guys like James Connor, who was signing for almost ten
million a year. The guys who are really gonna reap
(19:49):
the benefit are even eligible to sign extensions. It's gonna
be Jon Robinson after the twenty twenty five regular season.
He was a first round pick in twenty twenty three,
and Jamier Gibbs, also a first round pick in twenty
twenty three. The Lions did an extension with David Montgomery
for nine million a year. Those two guys are gonna
(20:10):
move the needle. James Cook is talking about wanting fifteen
million a year. I don't know if he's gonna get that,
but he's gonna get more than he would have without
what happened this year. Even had in twenty twenty three,
the best running back in the league went to the
Super Bowl. That was Christian McCaffrey, and then they redid
his deal of two years left, where the new money
(20:32):
averages nineteen million. So yeah, you're starting to see a trend.
Because you get to the Super Bowl with the best
running back in one year, you win the super Bowl
the next year with the best running back the team
which on paper should have won the super Bowl, but.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I always shoot themselves in the foot.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
Baltimore had had the second best running back this year,
So yeah, you're starting to see a little bit of
a resurgence.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Johnson. The podcast is to you by Citizens, the official
bank of the Giants, from gaining they celebrations to your
everyday financial needs. Big Blue fans can get the most
out of every moment with Citizens. Learn more at Citizens
bank dot com slash Giants. Do you do you want
to know how to manage two minutes of crunch time football?
Speaker 3 (21:11):
I'm your man.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
But if you're wondering about a long term financial plan,
you should talk to Citizens.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Hey, I can also talk long care.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
I'd like to learn about a Mollia routine.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yes, I knew I could help make sense of your
money with Citizens Giants through other positions. I want to
touch on your Corey before we move on to the
specific free agent class this year, are guards and defensive
tackles starting to push up a little bit? I feel
like teams are valuing interior pass rush a little bit more.
Therefore the guards have to be valued more as well
(21:42):
in terms of how teams are viewing, protecting and getting
after the quarterback.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Well, I think it's a little bit of misknown or
that the interior pass rush market is now being valued
in a new way that it has in the past.
I represented a guy, John Randor who at one time
became the highest paid defensive player in the league, and
then the Incals barely dry on that deal before another
(22:07):
interior defensive lineman, Warren sapp top that deal. So it's
not like it's a new phenomenon. That was a late
nineties when that happened. Yeah, for the interior offensive lineman,
you're starting to see those salaries creep a little closer
to the tackle salaries. Actually, the top of the guard market,
(22:27):
if you take Pennay Sewell out of the equation for
right tackles, you've got it's pretty comparable. I expect Trace Smith,
who's going to get franchised by the Kansas City Chiefs
at twenty three point four million, will become the highest
paid guard if he so many signs a long term
deal that's currently landing Dickerson at twenty one million per year.
(22:50):
But yeah, and the interior offensive line is very important.
Look at the Eagles. That team is built in the trenches.
They have defensive line depths coming waves, but the offensive
line they stick a lot of money in that. They've
got two twenty million dollars per year tackles. They got
a twenty million dollar per year guard. So yeah, that's
(23:11):
gonna be That's very important, taking care of your offensive line.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And then one other position real quickly, Joel wide receiver.
We've talked about this a lot. There so many good wies.
Is not a great wide receiver draft class this year,
but we've had a bunch in a row. Are teams
going to start being a little bit more hesitant paying
wide receiver is at the top of the market or
is that trend and goeing to continue? We saw Ceedee Lamb,
justin Jefferson, all those guys get paid in now Jamar
chases up next.
Speaker 4 (23:35):
I would think that it's got to slow down a
little bit because the market's really exploded the past couple
of years. Travis Hunter is interesting from this perspective that
he wants to be a full time two way player,
which I don't think that's humanly possible in the NFL,
But from an economic standpoint, if he's got to choose
(23:55):
a position, although top cornerbacks are a more scarce commodity,
I'd want to be a wide receiver. There aren't any
twenty five million dollars per year cornerbacks, but you've got
I can count. I run out of fingers counting the
number of twenty five million dollars per year wide receivers.
(24:17):
The top of the secondary wide receiver market, I mean,
number two receivers is Jalen Waddle in twenty eight point
twenty five million per year. So that's more than the
top shutdown corners make. And you already have the Cincinnati
coming out last week to the Combine giving away the
farm in terms of leverage, saying, oh, Jamar Chase is
(24:38):
gonna be the highest paid nine quarterback. That's currently thirty
five million per year by Justin Jefferson. Typically it's an
edge rusher that's the highest paid nine quarterback. If I'm
Jamar Chase, I'm like okay, thank you. I'm just gonna
let everything shake out. I'm not doing it a deal
until August. I'm gonna let Miles Garrett get resolved because
(25:00):
if he's somehow is still in Cleveland, he's got two
years left on his deal, he's underpaid. He was the
first twenty five million dollar per year nine quarterback. That's
gonna be way up there. If David Mullagetta is controlling
the negotiation night, not Michael Parsons, who has talked about
taking a hometown discount.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
That's going to be more than Justin Jefferson. TJ.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Watt isn't a contract year. He set the nine quarterback
market last time. So I'm letting all these guys go first,
and whatever number that is, I want more than that
as opposed to going today.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Like say you did a deal today for Jamar Shakes.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
If you adjust Justin Jefferson for contract for salary cap inflation.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You're at thirty eight point five million per year. If
you put that.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
Number out there today, those other guys are going to
try to topic. So I let them do the heavy
lifting move the market and not come in afterwards. If
I'm Jamaar Chhaks particularly since Duke Tobin said he's gonna
be the highest paid guy. Self inflicted wound by the
same Eddie beingles By saying that I think it, don't
say it all.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Right, Joel.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
We know the Giants' top priorities to land a quarterback,
and Joe Shane, the general manager, says he wants a
guy who could win games this year, and that's going
to be a veteran. We all assume Sam Donald's going
to be at the top of the free agent list
of quarterbacks and he'll get the most.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
I don't know if.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
You've got a number in mind for him, But who
do you suppose would be on the next tier of
prices for quarterbacks? And what kind of number are we
talking about that the Giants might have to spend, assuming
they don't make a trade with somebody.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Well, you guys are an interesting position because the self
interest of Joe Saying and Brian Daball aren't necessarily what's
in the best interest of the Giants' long term. Because,
for the life of me, you lose eleven of your
last twelve games, you don't win a division game, you
(26:55):
have three wins, and you still keep your jobs. So
there's a lot of pressure to turn that thing around.
If it gets off to a slow start, they're both
gonna be gone. So they're not thinking long term. They're
thinking survival, and that isn't necessarily what may be best
for the Giants.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Now.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
If I'm saying darnold the first thing out of my mouth,
If you guys are trying to sign me or you
have interest, you paid jan Daniel Jones forty million a
year two years ago, so we.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Gotta be north to that.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
That deal will come back to bite you with him now.
I was surprised you were so heavily in on Matthew Stafford,
given he's thirty seven. Who knows how many years he's
going to play. I know there's connection with his brother
in law being on a staff, but that kind of
shows you that they're thinking, we got to do something
today or we won't be here tomorrow. I know there's
(27:48):
the rumors that Aaron Rodgers. I'm not all that enthusiastic
about that, just because he's forty one. He's a year
to year proposition and he's the grim reaper. Mike McCarthy
got fired when he was in Green Bay. Robert Salah
got fired in New York. So you bring him in.
(28:09):
The track record is you get fired with Aaron Rodgers.
He's not the I'm just kind of saying that in jest.
He's not the super Bowl. He's not the MVP League MVP.
Aaron Rodgers that he was earlier in his career, he
did play better, saying after the years looked like he
kind of gotten a little better with the recovery from
(28:30):
the Achilles tear, but he's not as mobile as he
used to be. Maybe because he's at the tail end
of his career. He's made all the money he's needed to.
He gave money back to go to the Jets. That
he's going to be more affordable. But I'm not all
that enthusiastic about that. You guys had some interest in
Russell Wilson last year. I'm not all that enthusiastic about
(28:50):
that either, because of the way the season ended. They
couldn't score more than fourteen points a game down the stretch.
So then you got the draft. You're sitting third. Do
you just let the draft shake out the way it's
going to or do you try to move up to
number one? Because the Titans have said they're open to
(29:11):
trading that'd probably be a steep price to go from
three to one. If I'm the Titans, I want the
twenty twenty six first round pick. I don't want to
give that up. But if you think I'm not gonna
be here if this things don't turn around, I don't
care if I give up to twenty twenty six first
round pick, meaning Joe Shane. Maybe the Titans can wrangle
(29:32):
that out, because I know when Mitchell Trubisky was drafted,
the Bears went from three to two, and I think
that to give up a third and a fourth that
year and a third to next and that was go
one spot.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
So it's gonna be a pretty steep price to move up.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Or do you just wait hope cam Ward drops to three,
or if he doesn't, do you overdraft Shadua Sanders and
or do you just take the best guy that's available,
Because if a quarterback goes one, then you're gonna get
either Travis Hunter or Abdul Carter at three, who will
(30:05):
be huge, impact, impact players. So maybe you sign a
VET and then you don't take a quarterback in the
first round and hope Jackson darters there at thirty four.
I would be more intrigued by trying to get Justin
Fields to come in on a Sam Donald type deal.
Although the Steelers are probably gonna keep one of those
two guys Fields or Wilson. They're probably leaning towards Fields.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
But he's young. He would be cheap relatively speaking.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
Donald played for ten million last year on a one,
so I might be looking for someone like that if
I kicked the tire, at least kick the tires on Fields.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Follow up on the quarterbacks real quick. Where do you
think the money would land on? Wilson and Rodgers as
older players that have made a lot of money in
their careers. And then that's the thing.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
It depends on if they're willing to if they go,
you know what, I've gotten my full market value earlier.
I don't need to get every dollar. I don't know
if they would do that, But the thing is the
quarterback market. If you look at the average salary for
what the veteran contracts are, and that is skewed because
(31:12):
you got nine guys making fifty million dollars a year
fifty million per year or more, you don't really have
a middle class. Gino Smith is the middle class and
he's going to get raised from twenty five million per year.
If he's still in Seattle this year or traded at someplace,
he's in a contract year. So that's kind of the
closest thing you have to a middle class is the
twenty five mark. Maybe they're willing to come in around that, hopefully,
(31:36):
But I really wouldn't want to pay Russell Wilson thirty
million out of one or sixty over two. I wouldn't
be enthusiastic about that. Rogers was scheduled to make thirty
seven and a half million and at forty one. I
don't want to pay him that either. I don't want
to pay him over thirty at forty one. So it's
kind of you're caught between a rock and a hard place.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah, and that might follow up. There's two veterans I
know some reporters have mentioned could become available, Kirk Cousins
and Derek Carr. How do you view those situations?
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Oh, Carr's not getting out of there just because they
kick the can down the road so much that they
don't really have a choice but to kick the can
down the road again. I expect that they're going to
restructure pick up about thirty one million dollars a cap
space and then worry.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
About next year later.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Cousins is intriguing from this standpoint. At first, I'm not
buying what Raheem Morris is saying, Oh, we can have
him as our backup under his contract, you know, making
forty on a forty five million dollars per year contract.
I'm not buying that he's going to be the backup
because if he's on the roster after the fifth day
(32:44):
of the league year, then you've guaranteed ten for next year.
That's ten more than you have to So it would
be like Russell Wilson if they cut him. There's no
he's not going to be a trade market phonks. He
didn't play well last year. Plus he has no trade clause,
so he would signed for his league minimum war one
point two five five million. Yeah, for Cousins at one
point two five five million, I'd take a flyer on that.
(33:06):
Now here's where Cousins has made a mistake. He's too
nice of a guy, and teams mistake niceness for weakness.
What he really needed to do to set himself up
for the future. And you make sure he was getting
out of Atlanta and you wouldn't have any of this. Uh, oh,
we could have him as a backup if he had
been just a major mal content as soon as he
(33:30):
got benched, wasn't helping Michael Pennix. There's no way they'd
want him in the locker room right now. They'd be like,
we got to get this dude out of here. We'll
bite the bullet, we'll cut him. There's no way he's
gonna poison or he's gonna he's gonna end up being
a negative influence in our locker room. He was a
continent professional, and it could end up costing him to
(33:51):
the point where they may decide, you know what, he'll be, Oh,
he'll be okay with it. If I'm the agent, I'm
raising holy hill from the standpoint that you lied to
me when I signed there.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
You didn't give us any inkling you're going to draft
a quarterback. He may have made a.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
Different decision if he'd known that that was on the table.
Mike McCartney is someone who gets players all the time.
He's aiding Hutchinson's agent. I'd remind them you have to
deal with me the future, so you need to do
right by Cousins today. And we won't have a problem tomorrow, because,
in the back of my mind, if this thing went
wrong and Cousins is still on the Falcons in twenty
(34:28):
twenty five, the first chance I would get to screw Atlanta,
I would or all things being equal, I would never
send anyone to the Falcons again or any place where
heem Morris ever, was that Terry Fontineau wasn't the future.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
Glad we know how you feel, Joel.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Hey, I got to ask you about the corners before
I cap off my questions here, Joel. And that is
the Giants also have put a premium on trying to
add a corner. Now we don't know if they're going
to get Travis Hung during the draft or not. And
the draft is also not very deep on high quality corners.
The free agent market has a handful of guys who
(35:08):
are probably going to rise to the top. How much
money are you thinking you'd have to commit to get
a starting caliber corner? And do you think there might
actually be two levels, guys who were going to be
like cream with the cherry on top, and guys who
may be just the cream That might be a little
less expensive for the Giants to talk to well, you.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
Would kind of be hoping these guys would priced themselves
out of the market, and then as the first waiver
free agency goes that they have to readjust expectations. There
is a deal done late in the twenty twenty four year,
which I'm sure all these guys are looking at. Yeah,
I'm more De Lannere signed what they got an extension
(35:47):
from the forty nine ers for seventeen point eight million
per year, So I'm sure these guys have taken note
of that particular deal. You've got guys like Carlton Davis
who did a three year deal and twenty twenty two
for almost fifteen million per year. He's not going to
take a pay cut. Saveria's Ward had a bad season
(36:09):
by his standards because of extenuating circumstances with his young
daughter passing away. He was on a deal averaging thirteen
point five. That Leannewer deal will be important for him
because that was the other corner in San Francisco. They're
in the twenty eight twenty nine year old range, so
that's getting into that danger zone territory. Byron Murphy did
(36:30):
everything you're supposed to do in a contract year first
pro Bowl ton of picks. If I'm representing Murphy can
place in the slot and on the outside I want.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
I'm targeting twenty million per year. I don't know if
I get there, but that's what i'd be targeting.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Two guys want to throw at you, DJ Reed and
a Sante Samuel Junior, or two guys that interest me.
Samuel is a little bit younger, he missed a lot
of last year to injury and then re and Island. Though,
like guys like Paulson Adebo and Christian Fulton, right, those
are other outside corners that that kind of interest me
a little bit, Joel, I'm wondering where you think those
guys might fall.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Fulton's probably the cheapest of him.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
I think he was on a one year proven deal
for like three three and a half million last year.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Probably you probably don't even have to get to ten
on him.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Sante Samuel is probably thinking notwithstanding the durability fourteen to
fifteen million per year DJ Reid, He's probably thinking, hey,
I played an opposite Sauce Gardener and that means he's
not getting the massipianst the top receiver. He's thinking, hey,
ACT had a better year than Sauce Guardener because he
actually for his he had a down year by his standards,
(37:37):
so he's probably thinking that same neighborhood as the guys
I mentioned earlier, Ward Murphy Davis.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
How'd I'm get in here? If you're lined up here,
you gotta go over the middle with at the score?
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Great?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
How do we make that happen?
Speaker 3 (37:51):
I don't know, Bud Citizens? Does it makes sense of
your money with Citizens?
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Official Bank of Eli Manning? How about defensive tackles, Joel?
It looks like Olsa Digizho is not going to hit
the market. It sounds like the Cowboys are recording this
on Tuesday around eleven thirty Eastern time, that he's going
to get franchised. But there are still some other pretty
decent players on the market. Where do you think that's
gonna land? Milton Williams I assume is going to go
well over twenty a year once you get past him.
(38:19):
What are we looking at a defensive tackle? For guys
that can play next to Dexter Lawrence?
Speaker 4 (38:24):
Well, how much do you want to commit to that position?
Because you already have Lawrence who's well over twenty million
per year, You've got an edge rusher making close to thirty,
So how much do you really want to commit to
the defensive line. Maybe you're looking at someone you can
(38:46):
get in the ten to fifteen range, a guy, the
older guy that maybe you can get cheaper. I might
want to kick the tires on Javon Hargrave because he's
getting cut from the forty nine ers. He's coming off
a deal averaging over twenty million per year, but the
year before he was healthy was still pretty good. That
(39:07):
like a short term two year deal, maybe twelve to
fifteen million for him, maybe something, because because he's the
guy that when he's healthy, he's going to get you
eight nine to ten sacks.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Joe, what do you think PJ. Hill could command on
the market. Uh, he's going to be looking north to
fifteen most likely.
Speaker 6 (39:25):
Wow, M yeah looking I didn't say get Remember, I'm
looking at it from how much would I want to me?
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Joel? This is a very dangerous free agent class because
you don't have a lot of big names and there's
a lot of money with the cap going up around
what do you think this is going to look like?
Is the first wave? You are going to be slow?
I know we always say that and then day one
and then negotiating period money.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
There you go around.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
The first wave never is slow is the question of
whether teams will have a little bit of discipline because
you're real So it's always a seller's market during the
first wave or free agency, it's a buyer's market after
you get past that point. If I'm the Giants, I
kind of try to take a page from the Commanders
(40:14):
because look where they were last year. Nobody expected them
to be in the NFC Conference Championship.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Let alone make the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
They went out and signed a bunch of free agents
on one two year deals and turned it around. And
those guys weren't high ticket items. So if Joe Shane
and his scouting apartment have done their jobs, they're looking
to get value, not make splashes.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Final one from a Joe, and I appreciate all your time.
You've been awesome. Guard Giants into starting right guard, and
they could use a wide receiver too to play across
some league neighbors. Any guys at those two spots that
you think could be of a good value for the
Giants in free agency.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
Well, I'm assuming Evan Neil's going to be your right tackle.
You're not going to think about moving him to guard.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Well, it'll probably be illuminaa right tackle this year, and
they're kind of they think maybe he could be guard
tackle bolt to see.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Well, then maybe you allow him the first crack at
the right guard thing and hope he's Mackai Beckton part
two and that would solve the problem. You're definitely not
picking up his fifth year option. But speaking of which,
McKay Beckton is up. He's probably looking at Hey, I
want to I think I'm Kevin Dotson part two. Kevin
Dotson probably was gonna get cut if Pittsburgh didn't trade
(41:29):
him to the Rams. He goes out and signs for
sixteen seventeen million per year. There's actually I don't know
if he can play on the right side. Well, they
moved into center last year. Jonah Jackson, he's on the
block with the Rams. He could be available. Will Freeze
type guy might be someone, but you saw last year
(41:52):
like Damian Lewis got like thirteen fourteen million per year.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
So about Tevin Jenkins, Joel, do you think he's gonna.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
He's gonna he's gonna be Yeah, he's going to be
north to the passion right. Yeah, he's going to be
north to that. Yeah, he'll be north of now.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Choles Zeitler's on the longer end of the stick. I mean,
he's been around a long job but still playing well.
Is he going to command much money That'll.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Be less than ten, That'll be less than ten.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, yeah, I think that that could be good value
if you want to listen.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
But if I'm him, I'm trying to stay put because
at this point.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
In my career, I want to win. No offense. But
nobody's pinking you guys to make the playoffs next year.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
No, I get that watch res Ever, two guys that
can compliment neighbors, well, you have.
Speaker 4 (42:33):
One that I think is going to get overpaid in
Darius Slayton.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
So I'm penciling him as gone, how much you guy?
Speaker 1 (42:41):
He's gonna command.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Someone who can stretch the field. I'm looking at this
bad deal that the Jaguars wish they'd never done with
Gabe Davis. That averages thirteen million per year and it
maxes through the incentives and escalators at almost seventeen.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
He's going to be looking at that.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
He's going to looking at Darnelle Mooney getting thirteen million
per year. He's probably priced himself out of New York.
The wide receiver market is interesting from this standpoint. You
got a bunch of seasoned, accomplished guys who have flaws
that are gonna be on the market. Those guys, some
of those guys aren't gonna get paid. Stefan Dix coming
(43:20):
off with a knee injury, Mark Cooper didn't do much
whether he was in Cleveland or Buffalo. Dere Hopkins was
in that like receiver by committee thing in Kansas City
after he got out of Tennessee. Cooper cup mayor may
not get cut. So you've got a bunch of older
guys who could be a good compliment also mentor to
(43:48):
neighbors that maybe cheaper than they were ever anticipating they
would be. Not everybody's gonna get paid. You also got
Tyler Lockett who's probably gonna get cut from Seattle. He
was he scheduled to make seventeen May thirteen last year,
but he's a third receiver now up in Seattle. So
(44:08):
those early late twenties, early thirty guys, they're gonna be
a bunch of those guys out there.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
If you'll have to wait those guys out right, Joe,
you're not gonna be able to strike quickly because the
prices will be higher.
Speaker 4 (44:21):
Well, their prices are gonna come down because those guys aren't.
They're gonna have a root awaking some of those guys. Yeah,
because Mark Cooper thinks he's gonna get twenty million a year,
I don't see that happening. Stefan Diggs ain't gonna get
that coming off of the knee injury. Then the one
who will get whatever he wants most likely will be
Devonte Adams because he's the most productive one. That deal
(44:43):
was set up. When it was signed, you had two
cosmetic years to inflate the average, whether he was still
at the Raiders or not. He wasn't gonna be playing
for thirty six and a half million in twenty twenty
five and twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
They're gonna have.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
To either renegotiate that or he was gonna hit the
open market. The Jets will cut him. He's the one
who should be over twenty million per year. I'm not
even thinking you have a shot at Chris Godwin. Before
I know he's always he's injury prone, But before he
got hurt, he was one of the league leaders in
receptions and receiving yards.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
He's gonna be He's going to be a different stratusphere.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
Joel, you're the best. Tell our fans anything. They should
have their eyes out for anything you're doing up to
or you want to promote it. The floors will yes.
Speaker 4 (45:24):
This a busy week for me for CBS. As I
said earlier, I got this what if Lamar Jackson article
if he had followed the Cousins route, played under franchise
tags was free, how much could he command? I'm not
going to give away the whole farm, but it would
be a fully guaranteed contract. Read the article to find
out whether how much he would reset the market. Two,
(45:48):
I'd usually do target prices, which is what I would
want if I represented offensive defensive players, as I'm doing
offensive players tomorrow, ten of them defensive players on Friday.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
Awesome, Joel, you're the best. Thanks so much of the time,
and we'll talk soon. Enjoy the chaos next week.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Oh we'll do. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
Joe Corey on the Giants little podcast brought you by
Citizens Official Banking the Giants. We'll see you next time.
Everybody
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