#7: Plug Your Ears, Harbaughs … Comparisons and Shadows

In a family that hates comparisons, we explore the similarities and differences in the brothers’ personalities and take a deeper and emotional look at the shadow that one walked in.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Last time on Man of the Crowd. What are your
impressions of Jim crazy. Jim is hyper hyper competitive. He
can never lose even when he's won, so he's not so.
I would talk to Jim and he was struggling with
the management there. Try to have a direct relationship, you know,

(00:20):
with Jed Yorke. I mean, that's your bet, your owner,
that's the guy, you know, do whatever you can, and
he did. He tried to do that and evertimes I
didn't have a friend, as you know, I sometimes I
wear those out. Sometimes he was my only friend. He
got mistreated really badly in one of those jobs, really badly,
and I know that. Yeah, I do think Jim is

(00:42):
misunderstood sometimes. When Paul Brown invented game film, they said
he was seen. Innovators always been accused, and it's because
they're far ahead. So Jim's in inventing things and he's
more clever than bots of the people he competes with.
Because people assume the worst. I think the age enough
change is never really the most popular person or in

(01:03):
any room. Also, people trying to intimidate you. That's part
of life to me is competing. If that offends somebody,
then then so be it. From the Baltimore Ravens, This
is Man of the Crowd, a multi episode podcast that
pulls back the curtain on Ravens figures personal lives this

(01:24):
season the Horrorba Family. I'm Sarah Ellison. Look, we're going
to attack this day with an enthusiasm, go very far,
because you are fighters, and that's what you are going
to be today. Some law will horses fights. I'm walking

(01:55):
on shaky grant in this episode, and that's because the
Harbas don't like comparisons. No, that's not strong enough. The
Harbus detest comparisons. All of us reporters who cover the family,
we are very careful in how we phrase questions so
as not to get a scolding lecture on how comparisons
leave one person feeling diminished. In fact, I had never

(02:18):
met or spoken to Mark Snyder from the Detroit Free
Press before interviewing him for this podcast, but I instantly
felt a kinship with him. It was kind of comparing him,
which you know, the Harbus hate comparisons, but he was
doing it and someone right, You've heard that for sure.
I mean it's the family is so sensitive to it

(02:38):
that Jackie called me out during one part of our
interview together, and I didn't even know I was asking
a comparison question. Yeah, tell me, how would you describe
first John as a child? If you're going to get
into comparisons between them, I'm real, I'm not going to
go there because if I say something one way, then

(03:04):
it's going to reflect on the other. I'm the other. Yeah,
believe me, I get it. I understand where the Harbors
are coming from for sure. Having said that, it is
super hard to avoid noting the similarities and differences between
two brothers who made Super Bowl history, and I'm doing
a nine episode podcast on them. Plus I have, on occasion,

(03:27):
the very seldom occasion, heard the Harbors praise reporters for
good comparisons. Tim Kawakami from the San Jose Mercury News,
He's earned that distinct, Honnor before when you got there,
Yes it does. It's a very fair and comparison. Let's
repeat that, you know, just for the record, Yes it does.

(03:49):
It's a very fair and comparison. See look at that,
Jim approved a comparison. Now, the specific comparison that Kawakami
made is irrelevant. The relevant point is that it can
be done so the standard has been set, and my
goal is to reach or surpass it. My challenge is

(04:09):
to make fair and accurate comparisons between John and Jim,
and hopefully I don't get any stern emails or phone
calls from the harbas well. The irony of this whole
thing is that it was my interview with Jackie that
provided the foundation of this entire episode of comparisons and shadows.
Jackie and I watched highlights together of Super Bowl forty

(04:29):
seven so she could give me her reaction and perspective
on the game. And she had never watched this clip before,
by the way, so this is her raw reaction. It
was a hard game for them to watch, and when
it was all said and done, they felt happy and

(04:51):
they felt sad at the same time. Isn't that great? Yeah,
it's like you said, he deserved that moment to celebrate

(05:13):
with him. Yeah, he did. It brings terms from my
eyes thinking about it, because it's huge, you know, it's
um They both traveled a different path, and John traveled
a long path. Ah, you might say, Jim shadow in

(05:34):
a sense and never resented a moment of it, never
resented a moment of it. But as I said before,
always in the back of his mind was you know,
if it happens for me, I have a plan, and
he's been working on that plan. I'm proud of him

(05:54):
for that, and I'm proud of Jim for the path
they took. Out of the dozens of interviews I've conducted
over the last year, this SoundBite from Jackie tugs at
my heartstrings the most. And maybe it's just because I'm
a mom with competitive children too, but I can put
myself in her shoes. All any parent ever wants is

(06:16):
to be proud of their children and help make them happy.
The Super Bowl was obviously a monumental moment for both
John and Jim, and she was equally proud of both.
But they each took his own path to get there,
and neither path was better or worse than the other,
just different. And as Jackie emotionally noted, John's path was

(06:38):
long and in the giant shadow that Jim cast. Now
you may be asking yourself, wait, Jim is casting the
giant shadow. Isn't he the younger brother? Yeah, he is.
It's just by fifteen months, which doesn't amount too much
now that they're fifty four and fifty three years old,
but fifteen months usually makes a big difference when you're
nine and ten or even as teenagers. But despite being

(07:02):
the younger brother, Jim was the one who got the
most attention in ann Arbor, Michigan, where the two boys
spent most of their signature years of their young lives.
Here's the best way I can sum up the shadow
that John lived in, or should I say, is still
living in. There's you know, who's going to win? Who
do you want to win? You know I had a

(07:22):
partial for John because he graduated with me, so I
figured Jim would make it back the next year or
something like that. So that was Vaughan Belange. He was
an anne Arbor Junior Packers and Pioneer High School teammate
from when the boys were young. He was basically saying
that he was rooting for John to win because he
thought that Jim would have another shot at a super

(07:42):
Bowl in another year, meaning there wasn't enough faith in
John to return. And Belange wasn't the only one who
expressed that sentiment either. Okay, we need to back up here.
What's happened over the years with these two brothers that
makes people from back home believe in Jim's ability more
than John's. Well, you can trace it all the way
back to when little Johnny and Jimmy first started to

(08:05):
fall in love with football as young boys. And while
everyone assumes it was jack the forty year plus football
coach who got them into the sport, the family actually
credits Jackie for introducing them. But she didn't make the
introductions because she envisioned them becoming NFL players or coaches.
She just wanted them to know what their father did
for a living. Everyone the outside knows what these two

(08:27):
have accomplished in the coaching realm of football. When did you,
as a father, know that the two men seating next
to you would be great coaches? This is the Harbaugh
family and a Michigan coaches clinic in twenty sixteen. First
of all, Jackie, please stand up, Please stand up. Be recognized.
Jackie Harbor, And the reason I recognize her, I just

(08:53):
tell a story has been told before, But I was
in a coaching class at Bowling Green State University in
nineteen fifty eight and Deyt Perry, the beloved, a great
Deyt Perry, a Hall of fame coach. The stadium down
there at Bowling Greens named after him. He was teaching
the class. He was there every single day and there

(09:15):
were about thirty football coaches and there taking the class.
And I was one of them. And he's football players.
You mean thirty football player wanted to get a grade.
They were looking for the grand smart a for athlete.
I think is the way. Great. But anyway, he taught
the class and the first day he went, he looked
out just like I'm looking out here at this crowd.
You all want to be football coaches, don't you, And

(09:36):
all thirty of us waved our head. Yes, that's what
we want to do. We want to be football coaches.
I'm going to tell you how to do it. I'm
gonna tell you how you can become a football coach.
Three things. I'm a start with number three. Number one,
you better have a love and a passion for this game.
Every day you wake up, you're excited to get to

(09:59):
that office to meet that first challenge. And there will
be a challenge that particular day, and you better be
ready to meet it. The love and passion for the game.
Number two, you better be smarter than anyone you coach against.
And Dey said, the reason I say that is I
know most of you in this room, and you aren't
very smart. He's gonna be a lot of guys out

(10:20):
there smarter than what you are, so you better out
work them. You better work harder than anyone you play against.
And number one and you can just imagine, just like
if you've not heard this story, you're on the end
of your seat, aren't you. One is number one. Number
one was Mary Wisely because if you don't have a

(10:44):
good wife, if you don't have a wife and understand,
I applaud the story. I love the story. But I
see the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. You're
a true coach. You didn't answer the question about this
is like a press conference. Uh, I know I'm talking
too much, but just no, I love it. Just two things.
What was the questions? What was the original question when

(11:11):
you first saw the sign of a great coach and
both of your sons. Maybe he didn't possible. I think
it's where John said. He didn't say that big rid
amount to anything. But one thing Jackie said. One time
we were doing that to stop all day. We were
we were doing an interview for the Super Bowl, and

(11:33):
they came into our home and the cameras set up,
and Jackie and I are talking, and they asked Jackie
a question, that same question, when did you know that
John and Jim and Janie marrying a basketball coach? When
did you know that they were destined for for athletics
and for and for coaching. And she made a statement
that I had never heard in our entire married life.

(11:53):
And the statement went something like this. The thing I
chose to do very early in their lives and Jonie's life,
I wanted them to know what their father did. I wanted.
I wanted them to know when he left at six
o'clock in the morning before the sun came up, where
he was going, and what he was doing. And I

(12:15):
wanted when he came home at ten thirty at night,
or ten o'clock, or whenever they heard the door open
in the room and the door closed, and that was
pretty much at the end of day. I wanted to
know what they did. So she brought our youngsters to practice.
When they were in strollers. She would bring them out
and put them on the sideline and they would watch.

(12:37):
Players would come over and fool with them, you know,
bru their head, and I get tough with there, you know,
and all that stuff, and they got to know the players.
And then when they got into high school, Bow allowed
them to come to practice along with Jerry and Gary's kids,
and they hung around the practice thing. But it was
a process that she introduced them to a letics. They

(13:01):
evidently saw some things that they liked about playing and coaching,
and then they pursued it. They did it. We were
just chaperones, watching and enjoying the process. So I would
suggest for some of you young coaches that have youngsters,
you can't be with them twenty four hours a day,
but there's not a reason that they can't come and

(13:23):
be with you. They joked about Jack forgetting the original question,
but come on, he didn't really forget it. And I
know that because I've heard him give that exact answer
to that exact question on more than one occasion. After
hearing Jack's response to this question a few times, I
picked up on two important trends. First, he always always

(13:44):
points to Jackie when people ask about the success of
their children. Second, he never ever points to a single
moment when he knew the kids would become great coaches. Okay,
for just a couple of minutes. This is where I
want to a small detour. It's still on the topic
about the brothers paths and the shadow cast by Jim,

(14:05):
But the very beginning of their paths started with Mom.
That's true of most of us, right, Well, I would
be remiss if I wrote a nine episode podcast on
John Harbor and his family and not talk more about Jackie.
Jack called her his hero, which may I say is
just heartwarming. She is most deserving of that honored title,

(14:29):
and the family clearly cherishes the work and sacrifices Jackie
made while the couple raise their three children. You know,
lots of people ask me how Jack and Jackie met.
What's their whole backstory? Well, they've been together for fifty
nine years, fifty five of them married after meeting in
a freshman biology class at Bowling Green State University. We're

(14:52):
in a biology class or alphabetized ABCC. I'm looking down
into the C section. I see so pd ci pi
TI most gorgeous individual I'd ever seen in my life.
Tell me about your first date. First date we did.
We had no money, so we just walked around campus

(15:14):
and for about an hour just talking and that kind
of became a routine date for us. And now tell
me when you first met jack Was it love at
first sight for you? No? No, it wasn't for him either'sally, No,
I don't think so. We were we were just we
became friends. My mind wasn't focused on getting into any

(15:42):
you know, serious relationships. I had to finish college and
my plan was not to get married till I was
twenty eight years old. Kay, anything like that, you know.
So they did it off and on for four years
throughout college, and they ultimately got engaged to be married,
but first after gradual Jack was drafted into the NFL

(16:02):
in nineteen sixty one, and meanwhile Jackie was accepted into
President John F. Kennedy's newly developed Peace Corps. She was
scheduled to head to Pinn State to be trained for
her work for underdeveloped areas in the Philippines. They thought
the timing was perfect. He'd play football for four or
five years, and she'd work in the Philippines, and then
they'd get married afterwards. But something unexpected happened. Hey, now

(16:26):
I noticed that you played for one year for the
New York Titans. No, no, what happens if you if
you're whipp a kitty or whatever, What is that whipp
a pity. Oh Wikipedia, Wikipedia, it's wrong. If it's wrong,
you am I legally responsible for that? No, but I
can write into Wikipedia for you if you want me to.
You never played, I did. I was. I was with

(16:48):
Buffalo Bills. Oh it's the Buffalo Bill for three days
a year. What happened in those three days? I got
cut with his NFL career and cut so short. Jack
went straight back to Jackie. So he came home and
I think, I said, what are you doing here? And

(17:11):
he said, well, I didn't make it, so um, you know,
we can make plans and everything. I said, no, I'm going.
I'm going to Peace Corps training, right, And I went
to the training and I was accepted. But then there
was a guy who was there in the training and

(17:34):
I guess I had my engage memory now, and he said,
are you engaged? I said yes, He said what are
you doing here? And you know, I, because I was
all into that, were focused, Yeah, into doing this. I
thought it was important. I thought it was a great idea,

(17:56):
and I guess I thought about it, you know, and
then I chose the other path, right and came home.
But one thing one of us and I learned from
that was from a Filipino because they had sent some
people over to train, and he said that Filipino saying

(18:17):
is you gave me wings to fly, and then you
took away the sky. So I tried to always remember
that when the kids were growing up, right, you know,
because you have to give them the opportunity to fly right,

(18:42):
but don't ever take that opportunity away from them. And
I guess that was always stuck in the back of
my mind the whole time. The Hardboy children are forever
grateful that her mom chose the path of family and mother.
As Jack said, she is the rock of the family.
As they moved seventeen times. Back in the nineteen sixties,

(19:05):
you had to get a master's degree to even coach,
and once you got that, you usually got your first
job coaching in high school, and then you worked your
way up. That's exactly what the Harbas did during Jack's
forty three year career. We were just so busy raising
a family right that it was a day to day situation.

(19:26):
You had to do what you had to do every day.
You didn't make a whole lot of money, So it
was all those years when they were babies and toddlers
it was moving all the time, right, and nobody paid
for your moves? Yeah, neither now, so we pack everything
up ourselves. I mean we didn't have a lot of stuff, right.

(19:48):
So did you ever were there any moves where you
were like, oh, I don't want to do this again?
Or were you just like, okay, new opportunity, let's go. No.
I mean he always took the job. So you've never
asked how much money are you making or you know,

(20:09):
what's a situation? Like, you just got there and you
did what you had to do. Jackie sounds kind of amazing,
doesn't she so selfless and all in for the family. Well,
that brings us back to John and Jim. And when
she first introduced them to football by taking them to

(20:30):
Jack's work, I think because I took them to practice,
and sometimes I think because they watched what he did,
that stuck subconsciously, I think with them all these years. No,

(20:51):
I mean I didn't have influence as far as what
they know about football. So I always leaved that your
kids should know what their father does. And I don't
really ever think anybody thought at that time that we're
going to be coaches or I'm ever going to get

(21:14):
a scholarship to play in college. We as parents didn't
think that way, right, you know, maybe sporting to have
a good experience, good experience, you know, Oh you're capable
of doing this. That's great. Do you enjoy it? Yes? Okay,
So the goal wasn't to get the kids into sports
and football. Jackie and Jackie weren't plotting the kids football careers.

(21:38):
The goal was about family, building a strong, productive, happy family,
and with dad leaving before sunrise and getting home after sunset,
Mom was determined to bring the kids into dad's world
and let them see why he was absent from home. Now,
of course, a natural side effect Jackie's desire to provide

(21:59):
that strong father presence was the planning of a small
football seed that ultimately, but unintentionally, blossomed into the historic
coaching tree we see today. That seed underwent an especially
healthy girl spurt when it was nourished by the Michigan
Wolverines football program and the ann Arbor Junior Packers. Okay,

(22:20):
so you remember when jack said he never specifically saw
a single moment that he knew his kids would be great. Well,
that's because he wasn't looking. But others were friends, coaches, teammates.
They were all watching. That's just what happened because they
were the sons of a Michigan football coach. But here's
what they started to notice right off the bat. First

(22:41):
is pioneer high school coach Chuck Ritter. It doesn't surprise
me that both ended up as outstanding coaches. When you
get them together, they mix very nicely. But if you
just see one to time, you say, oh, Jim's the
one that's in your face and is a quiet one.
Of course we now know John isn't so quiet, but

(23:04):
that's how Ritter remembers him in high school. And when
we pressed for more memories of John is a high schooler,
Ritter said, I don't remember because he was a good player,
but he was not allowed person. But he could remember Jim.
When people asked me about Jim, I tell him three things.

(23:25):
He's smart, he's hard working, and he hates to lose. Balan,
the boy's former teammate, has more vivid memories. Tell you
what grown up with those two guys. Jim, you always
knew he was going to be a great athlete because
he had he had such a skill set. He just
as he had that that a lot of kids have

(23:46):
at that age. He just excelled above other people. John
worked really hard, and you always knew John was going
to be a coach. John had he studied that game
and at a high school level. That was especially in
the seventy nine seventy eight we were in there doing
just playing football. John was at a different level. John

(24:07):
played defensive back in high school, and he sometimes pokes
funded himself by saying he was an undersized football player. Well,
maybe he didn't have the god given athleticism, but what
stuck out in teammates minds like Blanche's is how tough
he was, just like he still is today. Well, John
would come up hard, and he had he had a

(24:29):
neck collar, I think at one point because he had
a stinger in his neck or something, and he would
still go and stick his head in there and really
racket and that day you could football was important to
him more than other people on a team. You could
always tell. As a senior. In nineteen seventy nine, John
injured his knee and missed the first seven games of

(24:51):
his final high school season. Blanche recalls how important it
was for John to rehab and make it back to
the field. His hard work in drive did not go
unnoticed by coaches and teammates. By the time he returned,
Jim had gone from being the JV backup, to the
JV starter, to the varsity backup, and then the varsity starter,

(25:13):
all while he was just a sophomore. His coaches called
him the real deal. Guess who was benched in favor
of him? John Mennick. You know the son of John
and Jim's first football coach for the junior Packers, the
one who hates two percent milk. Yeah, him and his son,

(25:33):
the three Minick sons, John, Jeff, and Jim and the
Harbob boys, John and Jim. I know lots of Jay
names well. They were close childhood friends during those years
in Ann Arbor. And in this NFL Network feature, John
Minick recalls the exact game and the exact time in
which coaches approached him and told him that Jim would

(25:54):
take his place as the starting quarterback. I can remember
the game vividly. It was a fifth game of our
junior year, and I don't remember the score, but we
were losing and the coach came up to me at
halftime and said, hey, Jim, Harball was going to go
in quarterback, just like that. I remember Jim was gracious, humble, poised,

(26:16):
but yet very confident when he came in and he
came the starting quarterback as a sophomore. Was I disappointed? Sure?
But how do you act to your best friend and
you know it's a special athlete and you knew that.
I knew it long before even Pioneer. Of course I
knew that. With Jim at quarterback and John just returning
from injury, the brothers got to play two games of

(26:39):
varsity football together. John was usually the leader on defense,
but he was also used on offense when times called
for it. Well, it's it's it's amazing to be back here.
It's the first time I've been back here since high school,
since nineteen eighty, which is pretty incredible. And it looks
pretty much the same to me. I mean, this is
this wing down here. This might have been the science
winging down here. I didn't really spend much time down here.
John gave us a tour were of Pioneer High School

(27:01):
when he was inducted into their Hall of Fame in
twenty sixteen, and while there he recalled some memorable plays
he had on the field, including a very special moment
with his brother that had never happened before or since.
The last game was against an Arbor here on our
arch rival, who we never lost to the whole time
I was here, even in twenty two years up until
that point, and we're in a tight game, and my

(27:23):
brother had brought up, had been brought up to be
the quarterback during the time that I was gone, so
he was a starting quarterback. And I came back, I
was playing wing back and the wing tea and he
hit me in a deep pass up the sideline as
I remember, deathly jukes. Somebody made a miss, stepped over
somebody else, didn't quite score. But then the loudspeakers saying
Harbor to Harball for the first time. So that was

(27:45):
pretty cool. Pioneer finished that season with a four and
five record, only the team's second losing record in twelve seasons.
And who would have thought with the hardballs on the team.
But an old ann Arbor newspaper clipping which we've posted
on the Man of the Crowd microsite if you want
to take a look at Baltimore Ravens dot com. Well,
it's cited a run on injuries, including to John as

(28:07):
the reason for their down year. There's another clipping that
told of Jim's assent to starting quarterback. Anyway, we already
know what happened after that season, right Jack took the
defensive coordinator job at Stanford. So Jim finished his high
school career in California, and John graduated and went on
to play football at the University of Miami in Ohio.

(28:28):
He didn't go to Michigan. When the brothers returned for
their Hall of Fame inductions at Pioneer High there was
this fun hu and a with Michigan Radio's Ira Wintraub,
and it got lots of laughs, but it once again
highlighted John as the older, quiet, hard working brother and
Jim is the younger, confident, superior athlete. It was nearly

(28:48):
forty years later and their reputations were still intact. Unlike
your brother, you obviously didn't go to Michigan. You went
to Miamive, Ohio. Why'd you choose miamiv Ohio? They wanted me,
But Miami's a great school. A couple of Miami grants
sitting out here right now there you go, and uh, no,
great great school in Miami. Anybody watch a great academic?
You know, experience great campus down there Miami. Yeah, we're

(29:11):
very proud of that. What's your point? I right's I's
sure where you're going with this? You know, I was
just I didn't go to Michigan. I'm sorry, all right,
all right, I wanted to go to Michigan. I think
it was a great decision. Coaches, Look where you are
having lights? Man, I was just curious. It is a
little warm barrigated here. So you're the big brother, Come on,
ad minute. It used to be Jim up a little
bit well, I mean rare I just after after you

(29:33):
always had to look over your shoulder with Jim. I mean,
Jim was always coming. We had a few scuffles, a
few tussles, but I came out on the probably the
lower end of those most of the time after. I
gotta be honest. So what was it like knowing at
some point in time when he surpassed you as an
athlete that you're the big brother. But at some point
he surpassed you? Well, I was fortunate that it happened
very early. I right, you know, so I gotta I
think a lot of practice at it now. We were

(29:55):
we used to we used to, uh, we played all
the time, and Jim was Jim was such a good athlete.
Coach Minick, you know this, he was. He was with
the older guys all the time, right, he played with
Jeff and John. Jim. Jim was the same way Jim
Minicks sitting over there. We were five of us are
running around playing games and being on teams and everything,
and Jim was just just good enough to be with
our guys. John always looking over his shoulder didn't end

(30:16):
after their prep star days. John recalls the last physical
fight he and Jim had when they were adults in
their mid twenties. And there's a quick side note. While
John tells a story, he hits his mic a few
times so they'll explain some of the audio issues. You'll
hear the Baltimore Ravens. John Harball, thank you very much,

(30:37):
sit out, nail down, whatever. So I got this hat
that says four fights. That was appropriate because we're pretty
much fought our whole life. So in the last fight
that he and I had after many years of fighting,
and HiT's how it worked. Like I was older slightly,
so I'd grow get a little bit bigger, occasionally win
a fight against my brother. Then he would catch up
to me because he's a big, strong guy, you know,

(30:58):
and he kicked my ass for a little while. And
then I grow a little bit and be able to
get him in the headlock. He denies, and he says
I never beat him in a fight. That's not true.
I want a couple of fights. But I went to
college whenever he went to Michigan. He gets drafted in
the first round. I'm coaching football and he's doing real
well with the Bears and decides to take us on
a trip to Amelia Island. You know where that's at

(31:21):
Amelia Island. It's in Florida. Okay, it's nice. Okay, it's
a resort. It's a beach. He's got money now and
we're going to the beach. Okay, we're gonna have a
good time. We get out there and swim around the water.
You know, we kind of get next to each other.
We start wrestling around. Next thing, you know, he starts
flashing around it gets a low rougher, gets low tougher.
Next thing you know, he grags me up in there
and slid into the water waves, rushing over top of

(31:44):
us under water. I'm kicking He's gotten me, like, oh,
Kurt tied up. I'm thinking, all right, we'll let me
be unfair to dunks me. Picks me up, dunks me again,
holds me under the water. Now I'm like, okay, let
me up. I'm still under water. Let me up. Well,
everyone's coming out. You don't goes through my mind like

(32:07):
he snapped, all right, all those years, all those fights,
all that Lon being the little brother having to hear everybody,
his older brother being all that. This is how it's
gonna end. He's gonna take me down right now, Finally
he lets me up. You know, I look at it.

(32:29):
You look to the name after the game, when you
walk across the field, you shake your opponent's hand after
you win the game and kick his ass right to
look you have in your eye right, that's the lucky
game kind of like kind of like is that settled?
You know? And that's where it's stood all those years.
We having thought says, so that's what you're dealing with
with your head, coach, Okay, just so you know, you

(32:49):
got a fighter, all right, and that's why you're here
at Michigan because you are fighters and that's what you
are going to be today tomorrow and when you line
up next year? You are going to fight? Is that
the look he gave me after the Super Bowl? That
the hey hey right, one of less things. You're out
to the super Bowl? Case you're out to the super Bowl.
Here's where he died. Sorry, but I can't give away

(33:10):
that Super Bowl handshake story just yet. I'm saving that
for next episode. But I can tell you it's kind
of amazing. Anyway. After high school, the shadow that Jim
cast only seemed to get bigger because John got a
partial scholarship from Miami, Ohio to play defensive back, but
rarely saw the field. He graduated with a degree in

(33:32):
political science and briefly considered going to law school, but
instead he took a graduate assistant job on his dad's
staff at Western Michigan University, and as far as coaching
staffs go, it's the lowest rung on the ladder. He
varies slowly worked his way up the rings for nearly
the next quarter century as a college and NFL assistant,

(33:54):
and even in those twenty five years, he never got
to the level of offensive or defensive court. Instead, he
was the Philadelphia Eagles special teams coordinator for nine years
that spanned over two head coaches in Railroads and Andy Reid. Meanwhile,
Jim went on to a full ride scholarship at the
more nationally prominent football program at Michigan. He became an

(34:18):
All American and a Heisman Trophy finalist, and he was
good enough to be selected in the first round of
the nineteen eighty seven draft by the Chicago Bears and
the legendary Mike Dicka. He enjoyed a long fourteen year
career in the NFL, was voted into the Pro Bowl,
and led the Indianapolis Colts to the AFC Championship Game
and earned the title Captain Comeback. And even though friends

(34:41):
back in ann Arbor dubbed Jim the athlete and John
the coach, Jim was the one who ascended the coaching
ranks faster. In fact, Jim got a head coaching job
four years before John did. When I was talking with
Ravens owner Steve Buschotti, I had called Jim's coaching career
bumpy because he had moved Aroun down so much and
because of the way things ended in San Francisco. But

(35:03):
while John's coaching career may have been more under the radar,
but Shatty said it was anything but smooth. Jim's world
hasn't been bumpy. Jim's world is a series of positive,
successful steps, from a great college quarterback to a Pro

(35:25):
Bowl pro quarterback to a coach at school after school
where he never went backwards San Diego State, Stanford, the Pros,
back to Michigan. I don't see that as bumpy. I
see that as what you would expect of a successful

(35:49):
guy like Jim. They're not bumps, they're steps. It's always
sending for Jim. John's only probably trauma in his life
was being stuck for an extended period of time, and
he stayed and stayed and stayed, and they were regarded
as one of the best special teams in the league.

(36:11):
It wasn't until the year before I hired John that
he and Andy devised a plan to get him to
move to defensive backs. Because special teams coaches didn't get
head coaching jobs, they didn't get defensive coordinator jobs to
even have that step up. So John and Andy respected

(36:33):
John enough in his capabilities to say, you may be
looking at a dead end here, and the only way
we can solve this is if we make you the
dB coach. So that was a step back for John,
and that's a really hard thing to do after nine
years as one of the top three special teams coaches
in the league, to realize that if he was ever
going to move forward, he probably had to take a

(36:55):
step back to go forward. To me, that didn't seem
that might that by definitely and that's not bumpy to you,
but to me, that was way more pressure in his
mid forties to have to go back and be a
position coach just so that he could possibly become a
defensive coordinator down the road. I didn't plan for this
to happen, but during my interview with Bashatti, we got

(37:17):
a little deeper into John and Jim's personality and how
he compares the two. What are your impressions of Jim
Crazy Now. I love Jim, I really do. I think
that Jim and I would have battled more because I'm
you know, it's so funny when people see such differences
and yet it's not like they're type A and type B.

(37:41):
John is pretty as much as type A as it
gets until you compare him to his brother. But I
kind of get to appreciate Jim more now that he's
out of the NFL. Yeah, Building a legacy is yeah, exactly.
It's like, I don't like anybody that's competing against me.
It's not my nature want to like somebody that is

(38:02):
trying to take something from me. Yeah. I wanted those
wins against the forty nine ers as much as John did,
and I felt like John deserved them. And that's being selfish,
but I did. And I love seeing Jim shaking up
the college football world. And now I can sit back
and just laugh. Why would you battle more with Jim

(38:24):
Because I don't think Jim might have been as good
a listener as John, A little more stubborn in my position,
I want to be heard. You know. John's really good
at letting me vent to him. And it's interesting because
some people, whether it's it's not verbal, some people have

(38:52):
a hard time letting somebody vent to them that is
not as in intelligent as them. On the subject interesting,
I find that that's what makes John such a good partner,
is that he lets me bitch and then he explains

(39:14):
he either agrees with me or he disagrees with me,
or he educates me on why I may be looking
at it the wrong way. And that's a really hard
thing to do in the middle of a season, when
you're coming off a loss, you're dealing with the pressures
that he deals with. And I'm not saying that we
don't ever argue, because we do. But nine times out

(39:38):
of ten he doesn't have to agree with me to
respect my opinion. And that's a really hard thing to
do it. I ask Pashatty how John has been able
to lead his team through adversity when it arises. John
had to address the rate Ryce incident, the passing of
defensive player Trey Walker, and coach Clarence Brooks. He had

(40:00):
a transition from the Ray Lewis era, and then he
had his first losing season as a head coach when
the Ravens lost franchise quarterback Joe Flacco to a knee
injury in twenty fifteen. Right now, John's trying to rebound
after missing the playoffs in the last two seasons. He
leads his team through adversity because he is a thinker

(40:20):
and a listener. I mean, I go back to that listening.
He is so in tune with other people. The empathy
that he's able to create in a team setting allows
him to foresee solutions to problems. I wanted to play

(40:42):
that last clip because it reminded me of when Jim Hackett,
the Michigan interim AD, told me that Jim has immense empathy.
Both bosses individually told me that the brothers have empathy.
In fact, it's so interesting to me how similar the
brothers personality are and yet aren't at the exact same time. Basha,

(41:04):
he called both of them type A personalities. They're obviously
both ultra competitive, and both Hackett and general manager Rozzie
Newson told me that the brothers like to do what
they call scrimmage to work through and resolve conflicts and disagreements.
I see John and Jim a lot alike, but I
think the outside world sees Jim as the more brash,

(41:27):
in your face kind of person. Is John that way?
Does he just hide it better? Do you think they're
similar or the same, or is Jim more intense than
John Well, I'd never describe anybody more intense than John.
This is Ravens, Senior Vice President of public Relations, Kevin Byrne.

(41:48):
When John sees something that can reflect on his team
or have anything to do with his team, when he
sees something, he says something yeah, and his way is
it's best to get it out there rather than seethe
about it or get angry about it and then resent
the person who's causing the issue, whether it be me,

(42:09):
Ozzie or somebody else. So John attacks the problem all
the time. I think what John is better at than Jim,
and what Jim will be angry at me for saying
this is John is better at presenting a public face
about it. And Jim has fewer stop signs than John.
John has more stop signs, maybe has more stop signs

(42:30):
as the older brother. Maybe Jim gets more stop signs
as he goes forward. But right now, John delights in
what Jim's doing at Michigan and the things that he
says publicly. Sometimes he goes he knows exactly what he's doing.
He's having a little fun. They just don't know he's
having a little fun. Yeah, Yeah, And I bet Jim

(42:54):
wanted to, he'd be just as capable to put on that.
I'm sure he is, because you know, they're they're both highly,
highly individuals. But I think you know, John's just I
don't want to use the term more polished, because Jim
would really resent that. I just think there are times
when John thinks, you know, this is time for a
stop sign. I don't have to share this. I don't

(43:14):
have to do this publicly, and whereas Jim puts it
out there and tells people deal with it. Yeah. Yeah,
It's probably why one has a Twitter account and the
other does it. Jim definitely has fun with that. Not
only does Jim have a Twitter account, but he has
one million, nine hundred and seventy thousand followers. Okay, to

(43:35):
put that into perspective, the entire University of Michigan, their
Twitter account has one point eight million fewer followers. And
as we know, Jim has a lot of fun and
creates a lot of headlines with his tweets, although John
sometimes makes fun of him for it. Jim, how about
when you were when you were brought back to Michigan,

(43:55):
when you when you took the job here last year,
the questions still get asked about you personally? You personally,
and all you wanted to do was talk about the kids,
the fellas, the kids, and the team. When coaches out
here want to make the jump and they want to
keep taking that stat and that next step, how do
you deflect attention out there on themselves and not let
the drive of the next step for them. Hey, Jim's
doing a great job of that too, right. I mean,

(44:17):
you know he's deflected that I never read his name
in the paper tweet stuffing. That's not my father, that's him.
I want to be good on Twitter, you know, if
you're good at it, that's right. Well, while they've taken
different paths, it led them to exactly where John believes

(44:38):
they were supposed to go. For example, remember when John
was asked why he went to Miami of Ohio instead
of Michigan. I'm sure if Michigan came knocking, John would
have gone there. But by going to Miami and winning
that Super Bowl, John received the unbelievable honor of being
immortalized with a statue in Miami, Ohio's famed Cradle of Coaches.

(45:03):
I am telling you, in the coaching world, it doesn't
get much better than that. So now a bronze, life
size statue of John sits in the plaza, joining other
statues of legendary coaches including Paul Brown, Wilbert Weebu, bank,
Raa Parseghian, and guess who else yepe Bo shem Beckler.

(45:27):
John and Jim both spoke at the induction ceremony. We
traveled down paths for reasons. Okay, we don't know why
we end up where we end up for for what reason.
I just think we end up there because God wants
us there. And they basically says, that's where I'm putting you, okay,
And they put you with people that are going to
make the difference in your life. And you really don't
realize it at the time, and you got to go
through things that you don't understand at the time. And

(45:47):
for me, I wasn't a very good football player here,
but I was the best football player I could ever
be and coach read so yet you had to see
coach reading Kathy Reid. Coach read, thank you for bringing
me to Miami. There. I'm sorry I wasn't a better player, Coach.
I apologize. I did my best. I swear a guy,
I did my best, but thank you. It's the greatest
thing in my life. And when I was a player here,

(46:10):
we had a press guide cover that's on the stadium
right now, and it's got unbelievable people on that press guy,
it's the guys in the creative of coaches. I remember
seeing that. Look at that and saying I play where
those men played. I'm walking the same path that those
men walked that we bu Bank walked. Now I'm walking
to say at the age webe banks. You know. But

(46:33):
I guarantee in my dreams never went to the fact
that maybe there's a possibility that you know, you could
ever be a part of something like that. And you're
part of something like that because of the because of
the guys we had a chance to play with, because
the coaches we had a chance to play for. But
were This The point I'm trying to make is that
you can't dream too big. Here's Jim. I prided myself
for a very long time on being the tallest hardball

(46:55):
in the family of all the generations. From a very
young age, I wanted to be pro football player, and
I thought that I would have to be over six
foot tall, prize somewhere in the neighborhood of six two
to have a chance to make it. So that all
changed today where they unveiled the statue no longer than

(47:22):
the tallest Harball. And I gotta tell you someone along
the line, as a young kid, I learned that if
you drank milk, it was good for your bones. And
you go big and strong, And between the ages of
six years old and thirty eight years old, I drank
more milk than any person that has ever walked the
face of this earth. It's now gone down the drain,

(47:50):
as you could tell, just so proud. Could uh been
so many proud moments that John has brought the Hardball family.
But to see see the statue of Boschem Beckler today
and then John's John's statue as well, it's just I
got goosebumps. I got chills. For as competitive as the
brothers are, they always have each other's back and they

(48:11):
delight in the other's success. And John eventually got his
coming out party right as a head coach, a super
Bowl champion, and with that statue in the Cradle of Coaches.
But I had wondered how he felt before all of that,
during all those years when his brother was in the
limelight while he was quietly and diligently plugging along behind

(48:32):
the scenes. The thing I think sticks out for me
as a parent is that they're fourteen months apart. They moved,
I know twelve thirteen times they had to go into
a new town. They had each other to get through
those experiences. And then we'd move again. They had each
other here we go, competed in the same sports against

(48:53):
each other on multiple occasions. And John had the knee
injury in high school the kind of kind of knocked
him back a little bit. And then Jim goes on
to Michigan quarterback. Then he's drafted in the first round
by the Bears. He plays there for seven years, and
he goes to the colt comes out, quits plan ends

(49:14):
up it's a head coaching job. Before John did. John
still either plug him along and you know he's a
special team's coach with the Egels at the time, but
he's not a head coach. Never, I'm telling I'm looking
to right in the eye. Never did he ever show
any kind of feeling of remorse or resentment or why
not me? He always supported him, called him, wish him.

(49:37):
I mean, it's to me, it's it's the greatest quality
of all because most times, no jealousy one on me.
You know why am I not sixty three? You know
why am I not fourteen months apart? You know why
why not me? Never once did that ever come into
any discussion that we ever had when talking to John,

(49:57):
was if he talking to Jim, is everything okay, you
think I need to get him a call? You know,
when things didn't go well for him, I was always
looking after him and then caring about him, and the
same with Jim Towards John. I brought to John some
of the things that his parents said about him, including
the one from his mom that we heard at the
beginning of this episode. John and I listened to that
clip together. It brings terms from my eyes thinking about it,

(50:21):
because it's huge, you know, it's they've both traveled a
different bath and John traveled a long path you might change.
Jim shadow in a sense, and never resented a moment

(50:44):
of it, never resented a moment of it. But as
I said before, always in the back of his mind
was you know, if it happens for me, I have
a plan and working on that poem. How proud of
him that I'm a mom, And so that's very easily

(51:06):
gets to me. Life is not a pie chart. And
they wanted to be one percent happy for you, which
you can hear from her, how she had seen you,
you know, in your own journey and just so proud
of you. What does that mean to you to have
a mom who just gets it but gets you. Yeah, well,
as a mom, I think that, I mean, you would.

(51:28):
And now I'm a dad, so I understand it way
more now than I ever did when I was just
a son. You know. It's you get the feeling parents have,
and I look at my own daughter and I'm just like,
as much as the greatest relationship is, she doesn't really
understand how much she loves us, but she doesn't understand
how much we love her, you know. And I probably
never understood how much my mom and dad loved me

(51:51):
and us until until we had Alison. She talked about
she said how proud she was of like you, never
saying that you were in his shadow or feeling like
you were always had his back, you were always there.
Did you ever feel like you were in his shadow?
Or was that? Was that a coming out for you
to win? That was did that play into it all

(52:13):
for you? You know, it's funny. It's a great question
to ask, and I think it's an assumption to think that,
But the honest, goodness truth is that that that really
played no part in it, which is really interesting. I mean, no,
I didn't want to lose, and I didn't want to
lose to my brother. I didn't want to lose to anybody,
and I certainly didn't want to. You don't want to lose.
You don't want to lose your best friend. You don't
want to lose your brother and anything. That's just because
it's competitive, right, That's exactly right. It was. It's not

(52:35):
from it like I have to prove yourself or to
you know, show that I'm something, you know, compared to him.
And all the way through, I was always just completely
proud of I can remember going to games, literal league games,
and when when I'm twelve and he's ten and a
half and and just being like, man, this dude is
a complete stud. You know, this little kid, my little
bro is a stud. He's getting proud of him. I'm

(52:55):
proud He's gonna kill it. John went on to say
that he was also grateful that Jim was so cecil
because it opened up doors for him. He was able
to meet coaches at the Chicago Bears in Indianapolis Colts
because Jim played for them. But more than anything, John
never felt sorry for himself. Instead, he said that Jim
motivated him to be better. Because of Jim, I mean,

(53:18):
those are those are doors that were open because Jim
was incredible, and then everybody loved him, you know. So
I mean, I mean I just rooted for him, you know,
and I knew, I knew that he was going to
be really really you know, I just I just was
proud of him. And I guess if I had one
overriding thought through the whole thing, it was basically the
motivation was I mean, besides always you know, being driven.
You I'm just kind of like you're driven, were driven.

(53:41):
But my my my thing was I got to hold
up my end of the bargain. I mean, look how
great he's doing. I just need to hold up my
end of the bargain and do something here. Yeah, I
got that was probably it all the way through. And
so I mean it wasn't like the super Bowl was
the culmination of that by any stretch. It was the
fact that we can both look at each other and say,
we're both here together. To me, that's the that's like

(54:03):
the metaphor that to me is just like that you
just could not even fathom. I Mean, it says in
the Bible that God has dreams and plans for us
that are beyond our ability to even imagine or think.
About incredible things. And that's the lesson that I've learned
in life. I love that. How many people would sit
and sulk and complain about not getting the chances that

(54:26):
Jim had. John didn't. That wasn't his style. He may
have been an underdog, but he embraced that role and
used it to motivate himself. Well. Jim didn't note at
the time, but he played a part in motivating John
once again, right before he was about to face one
of his biggest rivals and coaching nemesis in the New
England Patriots and Bill Belichick. John and the Ravens returned

(54:49):
to Gillette Stadium in Foxboro, Massachusetts, on January twentieth, twenty thirteen,
to play in the AFC Championship Game. John was in
the pregame looking up at the boards with his rival
by his side, and then they saw something. I couldn't
help but watch the game on the big screen, you know,
while our team's warming up, and it's just incredible, and
everybody's watching. If the fans, the players are watching the

(55:10):
while they're warming are watching with Bill Belichick, I'm watching
with Coach Belichick. We're watching, you know, and and and
uh and uh and uh, and I'm rooting from a fan,
I'm rooting for him. It's that last drive and they
get him stopped on the five yard line, you know,
ironically enough, and uh and they win the game and
they're going to the super Bowl, and it's like, damn,
my brother's going to the super Bowl. And then it

(55:31):
hits you, It's like, I need we got to go
to the super Bowl. I can't. He can't go to
the super Bowl. Before we go to the super Bowl,
we have to win this game. There it is Jim
Shadow again, but instead of feeling sorry for himself, we're
feeling intimidated by the moment. It motivated John just like
it always did. He and the Ravens went on to

(55:53):
beat the Patriots twenty eight to thirteen, despite being heavy underdogs.
So now they're brothers who grew up in the same room,
were the same pajamas, had the same bedsheets, and played
on the same Junior Packers and Pioneer high school football teams.
Those brothers would face off in the Super Bowl. I'm
going to take you through that emotionally charged Super Bowl week,

(56:16):
but this time through the eyes of the family. Next
time on Man of the crowd, and it was unbelievable,
just stunned. I kind of wished it hadn't been both
Ravens and forty nine ers. She looks so miserable. Do
you think it's possible that she's the one that took

(56:36):
out the likes at halftime? The first time I've ever
seen any part of that game on video. Really, I've
never watched the game. You've never gone back. I have
no desire to ever see it. So hey, grabs my
head stick, give me a hard, stiff farm. What did
you say? This lip was? Quivern? What do you think

(56:59):
that last play? Would you think we're holding one? A
parent can only be as happy as their unhappiest child.
This is what this game is all about, Jim. This
is all about family. And in the end, what does
it come down to? It comes down to your family. Hey,

(57:22):
man of the crowd listeners, Before you go, I just
wanted to say thank you for such a strong showing
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love to have even more people find us, So please
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(57:44):
more others will be able to find it. Also, don't
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of key interviews I've conducted, photo galleries and more. And
as always, I want to hear from you after each episode.

(58:05):
If you have any comments or questions or whatever, hit
me up on Twitter. My handle is at sg Ellison.
I look forward to your feedback and would love to
interact with you. Okay, that's it. That's all I've got,
but I'll be back next week with episode eight. Life
is not a pie chart.