September 11, 2017 • 61 mins
You don’t want to miss this, as Jack and Jackie watch the Super Bowl for the first time since that day in the Superdome. They break down key moments of the game and explain why a parent can simultaneously feel 100 percent joy and 100 percent sadness.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Last time on Man of the Crowd. Growing up with
those two guys, Jim, you always knew he was going
to be a great athlete and you always knew John
was going to be a coach. Sorry, I wasn't a
better player coach. I apologize. I did my best. I
swear a guy, I did my best. Why would you
have battled more with Jim? Because I don't think Jim
might have been as good a listener as John. I
(00:22):
find that's what makes John such a good partner is
that he lets me bitch. Never I'm telling I'm looking
your right, naye. Never did he ever show any kind
of feeling of remorse or resentment or why not me?
And brings turns from my eyes thinking about it, because
they've both traveled a different path. When John traveled a
(00:46):
long path, you might saying, Jim shadow, My thing was,
I got to hold up my end of the bargain.
I mean, look how great he's doing. I just need
to hold up my end of the bargain and do
something here. And they win the game and on the
super Bowl, it's like my brother's going to the super Bowl.
And then it hits you, It's like I need we
gotta go to the super Bowl. I can't. He can't
go to the the super Bowl. Before we go to the
(01:07):
super Bowl, we have to win this game. From the
Baltimore Ravens, this is Man of the Crowd, a multi
episode podcast that pulls back the curtain on Ravens figures
personal lives this season the Horrorbaugh family. I'm Sarah Ellison.
(01:35):
We're going to attack this day with an enthusiasm. No
go bear a car because you are a fighter and
that's what you are going to be today tomorrow We're
a gorth to fight. Just how hard was it for
(01:56):
the Hardball family to have brother's face off in Super
Bowl forty seven? Well it was Anne still is so
torturous that I kind of wish it hadn't been both
Ravens of forty nine ers in that game. It wouldn't
have been nice if they went to super Bowls in
different years. Yeah, onen't that have been nice? That's how
bad it was. Jackie's sons made super Bowl history, but
(02:21):
Jad pass on it if it meant that they could
advance in different years. Well, we already know what happened
during the game right where the one hundred million people
saw it play out on a world stage. But what
you don't know is what was happening with the family
behind the scenes until now. We'll get a blow by
blow from the emotionally draining event from the entire family
(02:43):
in this episode. I asked Jack and Jackie to watch
some of the key highlights from that controversial game with
me for this podcast, and they were kind and promptly agreed.
So I really didn't think much more of my request
until this moment right here. First time I've ever seen
any part of that game on video. Really, I've never
watched the game. You've never gone back. I have never
(03:05):
I have never seen that piece of tape that you've
just that you've just played. Wow, I have no desire
to ever see it. You just want it to be gone. No,
I don't. I don't want to be gone. I want to,
but I don't want to. I don't want to relive it.
I don't want to. Experience was great. I wouldn't trade
any part of it, but I don't ever need to
(03:28):
revisit it in any fashion of that of watching it.
I guess I shouldn't have been so surprised. I mean,
it makes sense that Jack didn't want to relive all that,
or that Jackie didn't want it to happen at all.
I guess I was just so taken aback because they
were so willing to watch it with me. Turns out
neither Jackie nor Jonie had watched the game again either,
(03:49):
not since they witnessed it life from their Superdome seats. Now,
before we get into jack and Jackie's raw reactions to
key highlights from the game, I want to quickly note
that I interviewed them separately, so the three of us
didn't all watch the game together, even though it may
sound like that sometimes because of the way I edit
the clips together. There was one point when jack was
(04:09):
in the room while Jackie and I were watching the game,
but she kept looking over her shoulder back at him
to verify information. Then this cute exchange happened. The biggest
game is being played, and that was in ann Arbor
against Ohio's thing. Yeah you know, so right? What should
(04:37):
I not have told Bell? Distraction for you? How do
you know? I love that it just shows what a
normal family and couple they are, But knowing the emotional
toll that the game had on mom and Dad, I
appreciate them being willing to relive the roller coast of
(05:00):
feelings with me, and that roller coaster actually began the
year before the Super Bowl. Both John and Jim had
suffered bitter losses in their separate conference championship games during
the twenty eleven season, and Jim is still upset with
how that ended for him and the forty nine ers.
Your your mom told me that she kind of wished
(05:21):
that you guys both made the Super Bowl, but made
it in different years. Do you ever wish the same
thing that your super Bowl experience was against somebody that
wasn't your brother? Or are you happy with the way
it turned out? Yeah, there's there's other years I wish
we would have made it too. Um, I grew with
my Uh we could you really want to delve back
(05:45):
into that? You really want to go back into the
past twenty eleven? I thought we really were there. We
we had a call that when it gets us late
in the game, Giants fumbled on their own fifteen twenty
yard line and clear fumble that we were covered and
with two minutes left to go in the game, that
(06:07):
was ruled that the four progress has been stopped. Tonight,
I will put that play on tape with anybody and
call that maybe the worst worst call I've ever seen
in the history of football. I know, the worst call
I've ever ever affected a team that I was a
part of. I'll tell you what. The Brothers can't seem
to do anything alone, because John and the Ravens also
(06:30):
lost their conference championship game in twenty eleven, and it
was just as bit of a defeat, but there was
no controversy with the refs. Instead, it looked like the
Ravens were about to beat the New England Patriots when
they were down by just three points and in striking
distance with the clock winding down, a touchdown would win it,
or at the very least a field goal would tie
(06:51):
it and send it into overtime. But then two of
the most gut wrenching plays in Ravens history happened. It's
left in the AFC Championship Flacco Fire's end, Zong Todd
he robbed it, He drobbed it right in his hands.
(07:13):
That Sterling Moore stripped it away before Lee Evans could
get his second foot down in the end Zole Billy
Condon will try to tie this game with fifteen seconds left,
a thirty two yard field goal attempt from the right
hash Mark falled out. KIPI, Oh my god, he it.
(07:38):
We'll picture It's try to be AFC champions. I wish
I could share with you the words that could even
begin to convey the disbelief and the disappointment on the
Ravens players as they make a long job to their
locker room. As heartbreaking as that moment was, Ravens linebacker
Ray Lewis pulled his teammates together for a huddle in
(08:01):
the locker round. I'm trying to tell y'all, God has
never made a mistake. He's never made one mistake, all right,
So ain't about one play, Ain't about nothing. This year.
We did what we were supposed to do. We fought
as a team. We fought as a team that would
be one super Bowl champ crown at the end of
this year. That's it. So the way we feel, somebody
(08:24):
gonna feel like that tomorrow, and somebody gonna feel like
that in a week. That's a fact. And the fact
is we got to come back and go to work,
So make sure we finish it next time. That's all
we gotta do. Joe, you played your assos. You hear me, man,
I'm telling you, man, don't ever, don't ever drop your
head when it comes to a low stall, because there's
too much playing outside of this that people really going
(08:46):
through that's right here and makes us strong. Let's understand
who we are as a team. Let's understand who we
are as men, and let's make somebody smile when we
walk out of here. We got an opportunity to keep going. Man.
Let's be strong as a team. Man, Let's be who
we y'all rave on three talk about keeping perspective, and
John remembers Louis's speech, and then afterwards he headed to
(09:09):
the team buses back to the airport with his daughter Allison,
who was eleven at the time. I can remember losing
in New England and she was there and she whenever
she's there, she rides back on the bus with me
to the airport on the road games and ing Ingrid
sits next to Dick Cass you know, which is in
the couple seats there on the bus, and Allison, you know,
let's Allison sit with me. And I can remember the
(09:32):
same thing. I mean, her head like a forty five
minute ride back to Providence and she fell asleep, you know,
on my shoulder, and uh and I just just just thinking,
you know what, everything's okay. And then the next year,
you know, the days are long, but the years are short. Year,
and you know, three hundred and sixty four days or
whatever later, we're back, right back in the same thing.
(09:53):
The most talented riders in Hollywood couldn't have put together
a better scene. Despite injuries to superstars Ray Lewis and
trell Sugs, and despite an infamous mutiny meeting in which
John said the players attacked him that season, and despite
losing four of their last five games in the regular season,
the Ravens advanced all the way back to the AFC
(10:15):
Championship game, and of course it was against Tom Brady
and Bill Belichick. Hollywood would have it no other way
than to showcase the time honored rematch against the proverbial villains.
And then, of course John got extra motivation from his
brother when he didn't even know he was giving it.
We heard last week that John was watching the end
(10:35):
of the forty nine ers game on the big boards
during the pregame with coach Belichick, and then they both
saw Jim win and earn a spot in the super Bowl.
My brother's going to the super Bowl. Yeah. And then
it hits you, it's like, I need we got to
go to the Super Bowl. I can't. He can't go
to the the super Bowl. Before we go to the Super Bowl,
we have to win this game. It just hits you, like,
we have to win this game, you know, just from
(10:57):
a life standpoint for the next fifty years of our lives.
And uh. And then when it happened, I mean, you know,
even when it happened, it was just surreal. It was
kind of like, you know, this is this even really happening?
This is never going to happen again. It was happening,
all right. The Ravens had actually avenged their AFC Championship
loss to the Patriots from the year before. Brady from
(11:19):
the shotdown on second down, steps up, fires to the
end zone that it isn't accepted, intercepted by Kerry Williams
and the Hayes in the Bard and the Ravens are
going to the Super Bowl. It's John Harball, It's Jim Harball.
It's a family affair for the Ravens and the forty
(11:40):
nine ers at the Superdomement. It's no easy task to
get there. For that to coincide, and then you gotta think,
was it the year before this is John and Jim's
sister Janie, that they both didn't get there, right, Maybe
it's just crazy. So you know, that's to think about
the year before. They're both in the same position to
(12:01):
get there, and so you get two years in a
row where they're at the very absolute pinnacle of their
sport together. It's pretty neat. Meanwhile, Mom and Dad were
at home watching everything in the conference championships unfold. First
they were elated to see Jim in the forty nine
ers get redemption in the NFC Championship with a twenty
(12:23):
eight twenty four win over the Falcons, and then to
see John join him there, well, they were in shock.
Was unbelievable. I mean, just stunned, you know, just stunned. Yeah,
the next year was redemption for both of them. I guess, yeah,
you know, if you want to, if you want to say,
(12:44):
fate played into that, I guess. And then all the
phone calls started coming in, you know, all the phone
calls from the media and all that stuff, and we
had decided that we weren't going to get into all
of that before the Yeah, before you had one joint
press conference. I remember that. Yeah, and we did a
(13:06):
radio thing out of Indiana, out of Bloomington because we
were down there that weekend and that's all. And John
asked us to come earlier to the game, um, you know,
to like on Tuesday, because I think we could help
(13:26):
them both out with different things that they had to do.
So I guess we did some of those for them,
because after Wednesday, the team's locked down, you know, so
that kind of kept your mind focused. And then all
the families coming in and everybody want their ticket. Where
(13:52):
do we get our ticket? So we couldn't be so
we handled that, you know, because they're all excited and everything.
And then it worked out good so we could. Man,
the best par was my dad being there, so yeah,
you know that was with his half Ravens had forty
(14:13):
nine ers? Was it a hatter a jersey? Was someone
had made it far? That's great. We had some amazing
pictures on the Man of the Crowd website of Grandpa
Joe Spede at the Super Bowl with his half Ravens
half forty nine ers ball cap. Grandpa Joe was born
on the island of Sicily on the southern tip of
Italy and came to the United States with his parents
in nineteen twenty at the age of five years old.
(14:35):
He became a mechanic and then known and operated the
Subpedie Nursery for thirty five years. He died one year
after seeing his grandsons compete in the Super Bowl at
the age of ninety eight. So sharing that moment with
her father was very special to Jackie. Yeah, so he
got to see that and good moment free to share
(14:57):
with him. Yeah, it was. It was a good, good,
good family moment. It really, it really was. It may
never happen again, you know, it could maybe a hundred
years from Yeah. The media got to meet Grandpa Joe
in New Orleans at a joint press conference before the game.
(15:19):
There was a press conference between John and Jim and
then another with jack and Jackie. You're gonna ask us
how we feel on this historic event. Jackie, who hasn't
better than us, no, buddy, And the coaching Super Bowl presser,
which by the way, is not normal. Head coaches on
opposing teams usually have separate individual time with the media,
(15:41):
but for obvious reasons, John and Jim were asked to
address reporters together well. In that media session, the brothers
unique personalities were on display. John showed up in a
suit and tie, looking all polished, and Jim showed up
in his regular practice garb of khaki pants and sneakers
and a black forty nine or sweatshirt with a matching hat.
(16:02):
And then one was much more chatty than the other two. Hi,
how you guys doing well? Welcome and thanks for coming.
And I just want to start by saying what an
honor it is for both of us to be here
with each other, no question about it. John went on
with a kind and gracious speech, thanking family members for
(16:23):
coming to support him, and thanking the media for being
there too. He talked about the teams and how hard
they worked to get there, and once he finished, the
room fell silent. People were waiting for Jim to give
his introductory words, but instead all he said was, I
concur how did you see John and Jim approach that
(16:44):
week differently? I think John was ready to shake hands
and slap backs a little bit more than Jim was.
This is John Eisenberg, columnist for the Baltimore Ravens. Just
looking at that, you know, I think I think it was.
It was obviously so awkward, just such an awkward situation
when you get down to it, it was awkward between
the two of them. How are we going to do this?
(17:04):
You know? And so I think John was like the
press conference on Friday morning, John was more engaging than
Jim was. Jim was just sort of, you know, give
me out of here. Jim was, get me out of it.
I don't want to be here. I can't. I can't
deal with this. And you know John was going to
have some fun with it. Yeah, you know. And And honestly,
if I may psychoanalyze, I think that's a little bit
(17:25):
the difference of Jim as a guy who's been in
the limelight more and and you know, John's a pro
and he's been through the Wars and he's seen everything.
But you know, you're in the super Bowl. He's not
going to go up there and laugh off the Friday
press conference. He's not. He's not going to do it.
So that gets back to what I said before. You know,
he's just more a little more you know, polished, and
(17:48):
so understanding of circumstances. Right. The brothers approaches didn't change
once the game rolled around two days later, John tried
to go talk to Jim during the pregame warm ups
at the Superdome, but the younger sibling just walked away,
so John decided to chat with the forty nine ers
David Akers instead, but Jim didn't want him talking to
his kicker either, so finally Jim relented and they chatted
(18:10):
before the game. It was like we were back and
we were playing in Its all started with Donald Pizza
when we were high school and my brother plays all
started from our game and I played for Donald Pizza,
(18:32):
which was the other team. And for that game, man,
it was huge. It was a great game, Harbor, and
we came out with a one to nothing victory in
the game. So it was a lot like that. Really
was much different. Okay, two questions about that number One,
what made you laugh at the handshake, because I that's
what you saw there? And uh, a capsule is what
(18:54):
those what those things are all about. The worst thing
in my judgment and all professional football and college football
that I would do away with in a heartbeat if
I if I were in a position to do so,
and that's handshakes. Handshakes to come out before the game,
and I mean, you're adrenaline is pumping, and you want
(19:16):
to kick the snot out of this guy. And there's
nothing about him. The laike you don't like. You don't
like anything. You don't like the way he combs his hair,
you don't like the way. You don't like anything about him.
And you gotta stick in your hand and say, coach,
good luck. Did you hear him great in his teeth?
He was doing it under a forced smile. Good luck,
(19:39):
And you gotta have a smile on your face. Press
cameras are there. You gotta, you gotta. Then the game
is over and you lose, and you walk across the
field and you have to coach. You're the winning coach.
It's harder for the winning coach, and is a losing
coach coach? Or guys really played hard? Did they? And
why in the hell did we win? That's what you
(20:00):
want to say, but you can't. Well, thanks coaching, good luck,
good luck Gray, and you are moving. You don't want
to go out, You don't want to prolonged discussion here.
You didn't, you didn't your due diligence, and now it's
time to go on. But it should be in pro football.
Before the game, he's down at that end. You're at
this end, you recognize him the hands. There is no handshake.
(20:22):
It should be allowed in the in the game of football.
In my judgment, cut it out, cut it out, you know, honesty,
Jim probably wouldn't hate doing away with it either. He's
created a stir on more than one occasion with his
handshake exchanges. There's the one with Pete Carroll when Jim
was accused of running up the score with the Stanford
Cardinal beating USC fifty five to twenty one. When the
(20:44):
two coaches met in the middle of the field, Jim asked,
what's your deal? That clip went viral, along with another
one when Jim was overjoyed with the San Francisco forty
nine ers went over the Detroit Lions. That enthusiasm led
him to aggressively slap then head coach Jim Schwartz on
the back during the postgame handshake. Schwartz didn't like it
too much and ran after Horball all the way down
(21:07):
the field and they were chirping back and forth. It
led to a little scrum with players in security getting
involved well. Jim and John's handshake after the Super Bowl
game was also eventful, but I'll get to that later.
So in that clip, John likened the Super Bowl to
this high school Pioneer High School, UM All Star game.
(21:27):
Can you really let I mean, is it really the
same when they played in their first Pop Warner football
game when they were in the fifth grade, we had
the same emotion that we had when they were they
played against each other in the Super Bowl. And that
was whether it was baseball or basketball, or hockey or football,
whatever it was. I mean when you got to the
(21:49):
game as a parrot, I mean you those are your kids. Yeah,
And people can't grasp that how much it is difficult. Okay,
they say, well, how you you must have felt at
the Super Bowl? No different than I did in the
fifth grade and they were playing hockey. Don't really different.
You're still conflicted a little bit. You're conflicted when they're
(22:10):
playing each other. Well, you're trying to figure out who wins.
How are we going to handle this at the end
because they're going to be in the back seat. You know,
they're not going to talk. Don't get, don't get you're
touching me the back seat. I mean, all the different
things did go on. Did you notice when they shook
hands Jim was trying to walk away, and John grabbed
at him and says, hey, I love you. That is
(22:31):
that is John the expressive one. Yeah, yeah, probably I'm
probably in that sense. Well, I think what he was
saying is maybe what he was saying is no matter
what happens in this game, because who knew what was
going to happen, right, right, I love you, right, you know,
(22:51):
And Jim was probably focused already on the game, right Yeah, yeah, yeah,
not that because when they both turned, it's like that's
their game face. Speaking of game faces, Jackie had a
pretty serious game face herself. Just before the game, TV
(23:14):
cameras cut to a quick shot of Jack and Jackie
sitting in their seats. The difference in Mom and Dad's
facial and body language is night and day. Jack is
sitting up in his seat and beaming with this huge smile,
and right next to him as Jackie slumped over in
her chair and she looks like she's just sick to
her stomach. Next one, Thiswie's a bit shorter for the game.
(23:37):
Jack and Jackie hamball mom and Dad and Mom wants
to pause. You have a big ground your face before
the game starts, and Jackie looks absolutely miserable like this,
she wants to get out. So here's my question to you,
and I'm going to ask her of this too, that
Chris Christie's wife. Oh, you guys are tight with Chris Christie.
(24:00):
Were we didn't know who they were? Eric Holder right
down there? Oh yeah, I just noticed that we got
forty niners right there? And okay, but here's my question.
She looks so miserable. Do you think it's possible that
she's the one that took out the lights at halftime?
(24:24):
Can you can you vouge that it wasn't her? I know,
I can't, okay, and I can't say that before the
game started she constantly thought that the game should end
in a tie, right, and she wanted it to end
in a tie, So taking the lights out in the
game would have had to have been suspended or it
would have been as close to a tie she could
could could have gotten. They couldn't have declared a winner,
(24:45):
could they, So it might have been maybe maybe the
conspiracy has been uncovered. There we go. I mean, ray
Lewis and Trill said they have lots of conspiracy theories,
they never thought about this one. What are you laughing
at Why no idea? Were you not nervous? I have
no idea. In the game, all you could think about
is something like this, where a play took place, there
(25:06):
was a completion, and you just scratched your head and
there would be an appearance of favoring one over the other.
Yea to read of the game. I just remember just
almost being comatose. I mean, didn't want to show it.
Poker face, no smile, no hand gestures, nothing right. But
they were good. CBS was good with us. They told
(25:26):
us that they would they would not only coming out
of timeouts, so I'm thinking this. They told us the
only filmed us when they came out of timeouts, that
they would film us at the end of the game.
So they kind of put us on on alert to
kind of help us a little bit, which I thought
was very very good of them. Just for the record,
(25:47):
Jackie confirmed to me that it was not her who
switched off the lights during the game. She thought it
was Beyonce's performance that sucked all the electricity out of
the stadium. But you know, Jack's right, everyone would have
run to their every movement had the cameras been on
them throughout the game. So it was probably good that
nobody could watch and cycholanalyze their reaction. When the Ravens
(26:09):
jumped out to a huge lead to start the game,
Quarterback Joe Flacco throw three touchdown passes in the first half,
and John's Ravens went up by fifteen points, heading into
halftime with a twenty one to six lead. Caught bowing
touchdown Ravens and the Ravens strike first in Super Bowl
forty seven, Blacko play action rows and Zoll puts down Ravens.
(26:35):
Dennis pit of the receiving aap, steps up in the pocket,
throwing deep. He's got Jakobe Jones open at the ten.
Jones makes the catch, He's not touts, bounces up, spins
out of one tackle, running at the left pass mark
lunchers in touchdown. Things only got worse for Jim in
the forty nine ers when Jacoby Jones returned the second
(26:55):
half's opening kickoff for a Super Bowl record one hundred
and thirty. Hey could twenty flow flack, Hey will go
all the way, Jack Cobb, y'all, There's no way mom
and Dad could have stood up and celebrated such an
explosive start, because how would that have looked in San Francisco.
How would that have looked to Jim? And at the
(27:16):
same time, they couldn't have been upset by the forty
nine or slow start either. I mean, really, how are
they supposed to act? Jack said, they try to keep
a poker face right. Well, even though John said he
was so proud of the way his parents handled themselves
the entire week, he said when he went back and
watched the game, he could see the pain on their
(27:37):
faces after each and every single play. What they went
through that week was just an incredible enormous thing. I mean,
and the thing I really love about it was they
were able to enjoy. I mean, they were rooting for
both of us to win that game, even knowing probably
in the back of their mind, it would be better
if they didn't have to deal with both of us
being in the game, because it was going to tear
him apart in a sense. But they didn't allow it
(27:59):
to tear him apart. They were able to be one
hundred percent committed to both of us and not lose
anything along the way, not split allegiances, not feel guilty
about it. You know, I think they enjoyed the week
they had fun. They were over at our hotel with
our people and going out to dinner and being in
meetings my dad was and my mom, and then going
over to their hotel and being around that and seeing
(28:20):
the family and entertaining my mom and did did such
a great job of taking the pressure of us because
we had so many family and friends in They were
always like they were working. And yet when I see
clips of them in the press box during the game,
then I see the pain on their faces because they
had to do everything they could not to react, I
mean one way or the other, like and how could
you react? We make a big play the kickoff return
(28:41):
goes back at the beginning of the second half, and
as excited as our friend, they got to be just
as crushed for Jim, one hundred percent excited for us,
one hundred percent crushed for Jim. At the same time,
through the whole game, every single play, every single call,
everything that goes up or down one way or the other,
they had to relive that that kind of nundrum every second.
There was a break in the game with some exchanges
(29:03):
that Jack and Jackie never saw. John and Jim had
this back and forth while the lights were out for
thirty four minutes during the blackout in the third quarter,
their pressure and he sucked back in the forty yard line. Joe,
why's the clock stops? All for the lights on the
(29:26):
forty nine ers side of the Superdom are out? And
only imagine the scramble officials are going through. Hey, I'm
reminded that Motown song. There ain't no mountain high enough,
and there ain't no valley long enough, and there's nothing
that's gonna keep us for winning this championships, not this
and not nothing. We're gonna win this game no matter
(29:48):
how long. It tastes right out of the phones, you
know what I mean? Okay, yeah, with their headsets are
out and they're trying to make ours be out too.
Back on your phones. But if the phones don't come
on because one side phones go off in a regular season,
you don't shut the other side off. So we're the
visiting team, our phones are intact. We should be able
(30:09):
to We should be able to keep our phones. It
should go to Roger and he is there coach allowed
to be in their huddle? Does he allowed to be
in their hole? Hey? John was complaining to the officials
that Jim was in the huddle on the field. Can't
let him waltz right into the huddle. Smile this face.
(30:33):
I'm not talking to my cars, but they'll make it
progress and starting to come up. Yeah, they've got the
grid coming back up. Yeah, we're now read it to
resume Max, We're ready to resume the Super Bowl. The
smiler comes on my face as I watched John with
the huddle part. Yeah, is he allowed to be in
the huddle? I mean I flashed back. I mean with
(30:54):
numbing repetition of time after time after one way or
the other. We want to let him get away with that.
Brain You want to let me get away with that?
I mean to jack In myself, got you, Yes, Yeah,
We're like we're the refs. Yes. How long are you
gonna let him do this? He pulled this? The great
(31:15):
was a lawn morning we had in ann Arbor where
we lived. We had a long sloping backyard right and
we had a little smaller front. It was flat, so
there would be they worked it out that we'll alternate.
I'll do the front, you do the back this week,
and then next week I'll do the do the back
and you do the front. It'd be it'd be like
(31:39):
the bag glass and did in the back glass week
got in the front, Well you didn't, And then they
would come tell me, I can't remember. Everything has to
be fair, Everything has to be fair. And the first
thing they want to do is go to some sort
of an authority, whether it be officials or parents or somebody.
They can't work it out. Somebody's got to be the
(32:02):
final voice in rectifying whatever the injustice is because they'll
never agree. They'll never never agree to disagree or anything
like that. Okay, well, now that I know that this
is your first time watching this, um, I understand this
one's gonna be a little bit harder. It's that final
drive Cavernick takes to snap. But the role was right rolling.
Look at the back of the ends when as Boss
(32:23):
doesn't throw a doll roles and didn't complete what I'm
gonna let them talk on me like that crazy man
back was of all the quick of the flat call
by Grande jarget complete And now the forty nine ers
Super Bowl will come down to fourth down. But keeping
out we went day. Let's go Let's go big. That's
(32:44):
why you stand up at right for a stadium that
lacked electricity for breath Alice when I've never seen this play.
I mean I've seen it, but not like this preseason,
all those OTAs it blitz and complete no, complete right
(33:17):
stop at forty niners all screaming for an interference call
in an air corner not to come read aught it?
What their contacted old him, Yes, is the referee going
(33:39):
to throw that? With the Super Bowls on the line. No,
he's not going through. And if this did it be
out here too? Thoughts? Have you have you ever taken
a position? I mean it's it's been years removed and
so John and Jim can laugh about it more. Johnna
(33:59):
said that Jim still thinks that that was a PI.
Have you ever have they ever come to you? Said
theyways come to authority? Have they ever come to you
and say, Dad, what do you think? Was it a PI?
Was it clean? When the game was over, went down
to Jim's locker room and he was for about twenty minutes.
He was just by himself. He didn't want to see anybody,
and finally her send Dad in ju Golden and I
(34:23):
went in and he had that hardball look you know,
you get that hardball look the eyes. His lip was
quivern what do you think that last play? What do
you think? I was holding one and he was about
as far away from me, and I thought to myself,
(34:44):
I run through my how do you answer that? Yeah,
and you want to say, well, here's Jim, Jim there.
So Jim, you know, was past the interference. He really
he took the short end of that one. But then
you'd be demeaning John, right, And if you if you
told him Jim, there are at that stage of the
game officials are just reluctant to make a call, then
(35:05):
you're you know, you're demeaning Jim. And he happened to
be the one that was fun far away from my nose.
So so I didn't say anything. I just I just looked,
and he just said a couple more time well, and
so I didn't say anything. And finally I think he
realized that maybe the situation that I was in and
(35:26):
he was in, so he let it go. So the
question went unanswered, as your question, well, okay, I respect that.
I respect that. How was it I noticed that on
that fourth down play you took in deep breath in.
Was I forcing you to revisit some feelings that you hate?
You didn't like that day, and it wasn't the play.
(35:49):
I mean, football experienced all the years, and you experienced
every kind of almost every there's always something out there
you haven't seen, but not much, right, But for that,
it recalls that. Yeah, that's the first time I saw
that last clip there, I mean the one where they
were both pushing at each other. The two players pushing
(36:12):
each other that Jackie's referring to is Ravens cornerback Jimmy
Smith and forty nine Ers receiver Michael Crabtree. Both were
engaged in hand fighting on the play. Smith had a
quick grab and Crabtree had a quick push off. Smith
fell down in the end zone and then the past
fell incomplete just a few inches away from crab trees
(36:34):
outstretched hands. I didn't see that. I didn't see that
one before. Um that was a tough one, you know. Yeah,
that was That was a tough one. And um, you
can't tell you can't take the callback. That's why I
(36:55):
had wished it it ended in a tie, but it didn't.
So it's it's but in the end, I don't know
what the official saw. I think he saw. I think
he thought the ball was overthrown. I don't know. What
(37:16):
he thought, but it kind of looked like the ball
was overthrown. But then the forty nine ers are gonna
think he was held. But in that last clip, offense
and defense was Offense was pushing defense off and they
(37:38):
were both going back and forth. They were both going
back and forth. So how I don't know how do
agree with or disagree with an official, But that's a
hard call. It's a hard call. So it is what
it is. Yeah, that's the only thing you can say,
is what it is. And yeah, Jack told me that
(37:58):
after the game. He it was maybe twenty minutes or
so later that he went into the forty nine ers
locker room, and he said that Joan and Jim, whenever
they disagreed, they'd always go to a higher authority to
kind of, like, you know, be the referee. And Jim
had asked Jack, you know, what did you think? Do
(38:19):
you think it was a holding? Did Jim ever ask
you that? No, he never did, because I don't think
that's a tough position to be put in. No, he
probably doesn't think I know enough about everywhere. But I
went back when you do. I watched that clip over
and over and over and over again. Whenever they showed it,
and I guess I always felt and looking at it
(38:43):
that the ball had been overthrown, so he wouldn't have
had a chance anyway, in my own mind, that's what
I taught. And that last clip I never I didn't
see that they were both tussling hustling. Does that change
things for you now? I don't know. No, no, no,
(39:04):
not really, because in a way they were both wrong.
They were both interfering with each other. So how do
you call that? Anyway? It was a tough It was
a tough ending. Yeah, that was very tough ending and
wouldn't have been better if there was a blowout? Or
(39:26):
did you like knowing that it couldn't even a tie?
Obviously that's your idea. Well, I think you liked that
it was close. I don't know. I don't know what
I liked. I wasn't thinking about that at the time.
I think that and why, And remembering the game, I
think in the second half that there were Yeah, there
(39:52):
were a lot of bad calls against the Ravens and
that helped and the forty nine ers catch up, right,
and I've made the game closer, which of course the
NFL loves that, right, Yes, I love that, and so
does television because wow, nobody's turning the set off, you know,
(40:13):
So then then my little mind starts working, Well, is
this all planned? What the officials? Did you think the
blackout played in the forty nine ers favor? Oh, since
they were so far behind, the raven said the momentum
that maybe I don't know. I just think that, you know,
(40:36):
you can go back and forth on all of that,
but the official called it, and what can you do.
You can go back and forth over all you want to.
And I knew how Jim felt. I definitely knew how
(41:00):
he fell and that it would be hard for him,
and it would have been hard for John too had
it been on the other foot. After that, Raven's final
defensive series stopping the forty nine Ers three times from
the five yard line, and the referees debated no call,
the game was essentially over. The Ravens drained the clock
to just four seconds with a few rushing attempts and
(41:22):
an intentional safety, and after Baltimore tackled forty nine Ers
returner Ted gin Jr. On the ensuing kickoff, the Ravens
were officially crowned Super Bowl Champions of the world. And
while John was one hundred percent happy that he and
the Ravens won, the scene on the sideline for him
wasn't like most coaches who get a gatorade bath and
(41:44):
go crazy with other coaches and players. Instead of an
exuberant celebration, John made his way to midfield to face
his brother or Super Bowl. Happen to be walking across.
Since my brother not just another coach, So you know,
a little bit of empathy goes a long way, and
(42:05):
it was pretty easy for me to put myself in
his shoes in that moment. You know, for a moment, Crod.
You remember how Jim has a history of eventful handshakes. Well,
while it wasn't caught on camera, this one was no
less eventful. John later told what happened during the banquet
(42:27):
when he was inducted into the Cradle of Coaches in
twenty fourteen. I've always been proud of Jim. I mean,
I've always always been excited about his success and just
seeing what he's been able to accomplish and everything else,
and I've always wanted to see him do well. Except
one time it was about that, and so we had
a chance to talk to the team today we're talking
(42:48):
about the season and the year and all that, and Jim.
I see Jim back there whispering to Dad, I know
where this is going. I could see what's about to
have it here, so and it didn't. I was gracious
that I didn't say anything, But now I'm gonna So
we get to the end of the game and it's
a miraculous victory for the Ravens and they make an
unbelievable comeback. I mean, that's what Jim Harball coach team
(43:10):
is all about. After the lights came back on. But
they come roaring back like we knew they would, and
you know, we find a way to get him stopped
in a goale a get stopping the kickoff. And there's
a split second theoryhere. You just you realize for a
moment that your team is the world champions, you have
won the Super Bowl, and that's that's an exhilarating thing,
(43:31):
you know. And I've noticed over the years that coaches
get picked up on the shoulders and they get carried
off and they do this, you know, or they or
they get gatorade thrown on the back of there. That
didn't happen for me, you know, I didn't understand, but
I realized I had to go. I had to go
across the field and shake the other coach's hand. But
it was my brother, you know, And that's that's a
little different. You know, that's a little tougher because at
(43:53):
the same time, you feel that great feeling, you know,
you feel bad for your brother, not as bad as
NFL for myself. If we'd a lost. I did feel bad.
So I go over there, and you know, it's when
Jim said the great things. He said, we had a
chance to get a little hug right. Never told his
story publicly, but I'm gonna tell it now. So we walk,
we walk, I walk across the field and I go
to shake his hand, and he's a big, strapping guy,
(44:15):
you know, shake his hand, look at him. I'm gonna
kind of, you know, get him a little, a little
man hug, you know, a little, a little bro hug
and say congratulations. And David, you can stand up here
and I can prescribe you beat me going for left
hand and hug. And Jim steps in just like that.
I didn't bombs like that though, David, he steps in
just like that. He says, don't be no hug. So
(44:41):
I was reminded that when I saw a picture up there,
you see it, and it's a picture, I'm like this,
I'm like okay. After the hug and after Jim disappeared
from the field, the confetti continued to fall and the
Ravens were presented with the Lombardi Trophy. Mom and Dad
made their way down from their seats to celebrate. And
(45:03):
with this next clip. You already heard Jackie's reaction to
it last week. It's the one where she said she
was proud of John because he had traveled such a
long path in Jim's shadow. Well, now let's get Jack's reaction.
When it was all said and done, they felt happy
and they felt sad at the same time. They made
this all happen for both of us. I think Jackie's
(45:27):
ever seen that. I don't remember saying that doing that. Remember,
I have no recollection to that whatsoever, of any of that.
That's crazy of that, Yeah, because the emotions we felt
were so conflicted or convoluted or whatever whatever word be.
(45:53):
I mean, I was just numb. I'm numb, numb. I
see that. It's like some other somebody else standing there
just it must be odd just to watch yourself. Do it.
If you don't even remember do it. No, no recollection.
It was just I had that feeling. I understand the
feeling I felt, but at that moment, I don't I
(46:14):
remember going down on the field. I remember seeing Ingrid
and Alison and John. I don't remember those words. I
don't remember that the three of us being there together
and sharing that moment. I told Jack, because we were
still up in the box, I said, we have to
get down to the field. Jack johns looking around. He
(46:35):
I think he was looking for us, and we were
the only two left in the box because the commissioner
had come in earlier, like ten minutes before the game
was over, and says, we're all going down out of
the field, and we said no, because we're watching the game,
you know. So they had all left so pretty soon
(46:56):
there's no way for us to get down there. So
when or Christie was up there, I thought that Chris
Christie's wife was sitting next to you. Yes, yes, and
he said to his guys, you take them down there.
So they got us down there and then we were
able to, you know, enjoy that moment with John because
(47:20):
he deserved to have that moment enjoyed and to be
joyful with him, you know, that's how I felt. I felt, Yeah,
he deserved this was huge for him in the Ravens,
you know, and as it would have been huge for
Jim and the forty nine ers said they won, you know,
(47:42):
but you can not not be joyful with the person
who won at the time. What that's your interaction with John?
Did you have an interaction with Jim after the game? Well,
when we got to the locker room, we waited for
(48:04):
quite a while and then finally Jack went in. You know,
I would never go in anyway, but and he went in,
and then it was like eleven o'clock at night then,
I think, and so we had no way back. So
we got on the forty nine or bus and we
(48:30):
got at the bus and Jack and I sat on
this side of the bus, and then Jim came on
and sat on that side, one row ahead of us,
and we didn't say anything. You know. It's like, I mean,
I've been through it so many times. When you lose,
(48:50):
you can't there's nothing to say after you lose. There
just doesn't, you know. But the heart felt moment for
me was when Jimmy got on the bus. Then Jimmy
is the second of jim seven children. He was about
sixteen years old at the time, and came and sat
(49:12):
down next to Jim and laid his head on Jim's
shoulder and Jim put his arm around Jimmy, and I
was just said, this is what this is what this
whole game's about to myself. And we were getting off
the bus and Jim I held him back a minute
(49:36):
and I said, Jim, who has it better than you
right now that your son put his head on your
shoulder and your arm around him, This is what this
game is all about, Jim, And he just looked at
(49:57):
me and know he said, right, you know, it's that
to me that I mean, the whole thing, the whole week,
the whole season for me was this is all about family.
And in the end, what does it come down to.
(50:18):
It comes down to your family, right, I mean, what
a culmination for both of them and the biggest game
in the world, the world really, yeah, you know, and
here they are. And I think I also said to
them and I said, how proud I was of him, Jim,
(50:41):
that he brought his team to the pinnacle. It's regretable,
I said, You've got to be happy for your team. Yeah,
you've got to be happy for that success. Yeah. I
also talked to sister Joni to get her Super Bowl experience,
but she said she didn't remember a whole lot because
(51:02):
she and her family were exhausted. Her husband, Tom Crean
was the University of Indiana's head basketball coach at the time,
and she said this Saturday night before the Super Bowl,
Indiana beat Michigan to become the number one ranked team
in the country. The game ended super late at night,
so they only got a few hours asleep before they
caught their flights to New Orleans the next morning. She
(51:24):
caught up with mom and dad from there and stayed
by their side for most of the day. But it
was hard. It was a hard deal, you know. You
can't even express how difficult emotionally it was. And the
way it came down too. Ah. First you're like, oh,
I don't want Jim to lose, you know, because what
was it? The Ravens roup so much, and you're like,
(51:46):
oh no, And then you're like, oh my gosh, John
could lose in a last second touchdown. That the awful.
It was like that you were just torn like that,
just back and forth. You you were able to kind
of go to the exuper locker room and to the
press conference and you know, be excited for John and
(52:06):
Ingrid and Allison and feel that just total excitement for
all of that. And that's kind of like okay, you know,
and then you go to the other locker room and
just feel exactly where Jim was, exactly where we all
are after lossits but then losing that game, you know,
you want to question everything. You're going back over it,
and I think that you you know, you weren't over
(52:29):
there going, oh my god, John was so happy and
we're so happy for them, right, didn't do that. You're
just able to be present at that moment, in that
time after the game and after the trophy presentation and
after all the team buses left the Superdome. Then the
Ravens had a huge Super Bowl party and I was
(52:50):
there with the entire organization, from the players to the coaches,
to front office executives and low level employees like myself.
We all celebrated together and Mary J. Blige entertained everyone
up on stage. Then Ray Lewis got up there to
teach her how to do his signature squirrel dance. It
was an amazing, amazing night. I saw John there. He
(53:13):
was celebrating and talking with everybody. He also stuck close
to his wife, Ingrid and his daughter Allison. He had
his arm around that little girl for much of the night.
But the rest of the family, Jack, Jackie and Jonie
and her family were nowhere to be found at the party.
I knew, I knew them. We're going to be at
the super Bowl party. You know, there was no way.
(53:34):
The didn't even cross my mind because they were going
to have to be with Jim. But they did get
down there, and they were able for you know, half hour,
maybe twenty minutes, however long it was that they went
through the celebration and all that that they were fully excited,
jacked up out of their mind about the victory for us,
and you could see it on their faces and the joy.
It wasn't like they were disappointed. They were fully into
(53:56):
it that we won. And then to be able to like, okay,
then walk away from that and to write now, just
like that and I'm split seconds noticed, you know, change
and be fully immersed on the other side of that,
the defeat, you know, the thrill of victory, the agony
of defeat like the old ABC show Wild World of Sports.
I mean, it's really true, you know, and they lived it,
I think, like nobody else could. I asked Jack what
(54:19):
they were doing while the Ravens party was going on.
I don't remember seeing you there. Did you go to gym? No?
We didn't go either place. What did you do? Just walked?
We just walked around New Orleans with Tom and Jonie
and the kids. The game was over and we were
up watching the game and the confetti's comment and the
band's playing and they're bringing out the whatever they bring
(54:41):
out there for the presentation, and my wife and are
just sitting and looking at each other and we're just
it had like no feeling I'd ever had in coaching before.
You know, we had won games and we had lost games,
but I never had that feeling. I think when I'm
looking at my wife and I'm thinking, I didn't say it,
but I'm thinking to myself, John has just one maybe
(55:01):
one of the greatest prizes in all of sport. Yeah,
and why why don't we feel differently? So we went
down and met with John. Then we went over and
met with Jim, and we didn't go to either place.
We just walked with Tom and Jonie and her kids.
We just walked around New Orleans and Tom got a
text message from Doc Rivers, who was coaching the Boston
(55:23):
Celtics at the time, and he texted Tom and he said,
I can only imagine how you're in laws feel. And
Tom said, well, maybe could explain it to them because
we're having a difficult time. They're they're having a difficult time.
And here's what he said. A parent can only be
as happy as their unhappiest child. And it all made sense.
(55:45):
We had a great, great feeling for John, but he
realized there was another son, another child that was feeling
pain and hurt. Having experienced both the winning with John
and losing with Jim, it left us convoluted. Is there
a word like that? Conflicted completely? Yeah, but we were.
We were just and then when once we realized that,
(56:06):
then we could then we took joy and talked to
John then and understand why we felt the way we did.
You know, it was funny. I was one of my
favorite quotes from John. Happened actually a couple of weeks
ago at training camp, and what had happened? As a
reporter asked him when we were about to have a
stadium practice and it's one of those that you really
(56:27):
want to fancy get into. So a reporter said, so John,
with this practice coming up, he said something like, is
this all about the fans or are you still trying
to improve your football team? And then John says, love this,
He goes life is not a pie chart, Jerry. This
can be about both one hundred percent about the fans
and one hundred percent about improving the team. It's not
(56:50):
a pie chart. You don't have to give a certain
percentage to the fans and a certain percentage here. Would
you liken that to John and Jin that you didn't.
You can be one hundred percent happy for John and
this pie chart, but there can be a whole other
part chart where you're feel for Jim. You have just
put it together the way I have never been able
to put it together. I mean, that is so so perfect.
(57:12):
You can have it both ways, yeah, And it isn't
life that we share those emotions both ways. Sometimes they
happen in the same day, sometimes they happen in the
same game. Right. But you experienced the ultimate high, yeah,
and you experience the ultimate low and you and you
get both of them. That's and you can have it
at the same you can have them and it's not wrong.
(57:34):
I don't feel guilty right about either emotion. Right. Life
is not a pie chart. Yeah, there you go, John,
that's going to become mine. Just don't share that, keep
it to me. Okay. Well, that same pie chart analogy
ring true for Jim, that is exactly how I would
have describe it as one um tough loss, percent proud
(58:05):
of our team the way they fought back in that game,
and also add percent proud of my brother and happy
for his success, and one hundred percent really happy that
it had happened to that that experience happened to our family.
Well there, it is the first family to ever have
(58:26):
brothers face off as head coaches in the Super Bowl,
How they dealt with it, all the emotions that came
with it, all of it, and years removed, they still
talk about their experiences often. Not surprisingly, John and Jim
still debate the officiating, but more than anything, they reminisce
and are still astonished that it even ever happened. They
(58:47):
know how rare it was. Being the first the Harbors
had to figure out how to deal with it. On
the fly. There was no blueprint, but there is now.
The Harbors created it, even though it's very, very unlikely
that anybody will ever need that blueprint ever again, unless
(59:08):
I think we're both amazed by that that had even happened.
We're kind of amazed by the fact that, I mean,
when it was happening, it was amazing, and then when
it happened, I mean, you know, even when it happened,
it was just surreal. It was kind of like, you know,
this is this even really happening? This is never going
to happen again unless it's us again. So maybe we'll
make it happen again sometimes next time. On Man of
(59:34):
the Crowd, the final episode of this season and the
legacies that John and Jim will leave behind. What do
you think has been his legacy so far? Number one winning? John?
A couple of years ago, I had the audacity to
say that I thought you had a chance to be
the nixt Chuck Noel. Is that even is that realistic? Today?
Could he do that? Well? He could definitely stay here
(59:57):
twenty three years. Those relationships are everything. Steve Ashotti is brilliant.
I was just like, oh my god, this guy gets
it well. Azzi. It's not like we we like stay
in our own lanes. We drive in each other's lanes
all the time. We never throw a trump card on
the table. Do you think that Harbaugh is the best
coach and franchise history top time? He will not let up,
(01:00:18):
and if by chance he noticed himself letting up, he
would walk away. Hey, Man of the Crowd listeners, Before
you go, I just wanted to say thank you for
such a strong showing of support for the podcast. We're
(01:00:39):
very happy with how many of you there are out
there listening, and we'd love to have even more people
find us, So please consider rating the podcast and writing
a review. The more subscribers and positive ratings Man of
the Crowd gets, the more others will be able to
find it. Also, don't forget to continually check back to
our microsite at Baltimore Ravens dot com backslash Man of
(01:01:01):
the Crowd. It has content that compliments what you're listening
to here, including biographies of key interviews I've conducted, photo
galleries and more. And as always, I want to hear
from you after each episode. If you have any comments
or questions or whatever, hit me up on Twitter my
handle is at SG Ellison. I look forward to your
feedback and would love to interact with you. Okay, that's it.
(01:01:25):
That's all I've got, but I'll be back next week
with the ninth and final episode, Loose Ends and Legacies.
Last time on Man of the Crowd. Growing up with
those two guys, Jim, you always knew he was going
to be a great athlete and you always knew John
was going to be a coach. Sorry, I wasn't a
better player coach. I apologize. I did my best. I
swear a guy, I did my best. Why would you
have battled more with Jim? Because I don't think Jim
might have been as good a listener as John. I
(00:22):
find that's what makes John such a good partner is
that he lets me bitch. Never I'm telling I'm looking
your right, naye. Never did he ever show any kind
of feeling of remorse or resentment or why not me?
And brings turns from my eyes thinking about it, because
they've both traveled a different path. When John traveled a
(00:46):
long path, you might saying, Jim shadow, My thing was,
I got to hold up my end of the bargain.
I mean, look how great he's doing. I just need
to hold up my end of the bargain and do
something here. And they win the game and on the
super Bowl, it's like my brother's going to the super Bowl.
And then it hits you, It's like I need we
gotta go to the super Bowl. I can't. He can't
go to the the super Bowl. Before we go to the
(01:07):
super Bowl, we have to win this game. From the
Baltimore Ravens, this is Man of the Crowd, a multi
episode podcast that pulls back the curtain on Ravens figures
personal lives this season the Horrorbaugh family. I'm Sarah Ellison.
(01:35):
We're going to attack this day with an enthusiasm. No
go bear a car because you are a fighter and
that's what you are going to be today tomorrow We're
a gorth to fight. Just how hard was it for
(01:56):
the Hardball family to have brother's face off in Super
Bowl forty seven? Well it was Anne still is so
torturous that I kind of wish it hadn't been both
Ravens of forty nine ers in that game. It wouldn't
have been nice if they went to super Bowls in
different years. Yeah, onen't that have been nice? That's how
bad it was. Jackie's sons made super Bowl history, but
(02:21):
Jad pass on it if it meant that they could
advance in different years. Well, we already know what happened
during the game right where the one hundred million people
saw it play out on a world stage. But what
you don't know is what was happening with the family
behind the scenes until now. We'll get a blow by
blow from the emotionally draining event from the entire family
(02:43):
in this episode. I asked Jack and Jackie to watch
some of the key highlights from that controversial game with
me for this podcast, and they were kind and promptly agreed.
So I really didn't think much more of my request
until this moment right here. First time I've ever seen
any part of that game on video. Really, I've never
watched the game. You've never gone back. I have never
(03:05):
I have never seen that piece of tape that you've
just that you've just played. Wow, I have no desire
to ever see it. You just want it to be gone. No,
I don't. I don't want to be gone. I want to,
but I don't want to. I don't want to relive it.
I don't want to. Experience was great. I wouldn't trade
any part of it, but I don't ever need to
(03:28):
revisit it in any fashion of that of watching it.
I guess I shouldn't have been so surprised. I mean,
it makes sense that Jack didn't want to relive all that,
or that Jackie didn't want it to happen at all.
I guess I was just so taken aback because they
were so willing to watch it with me. Turns out
neither Jackie nor Jonie had watched the game again either,
(03:49):
not since they witnessed it life from their Superdome seats. Now,
before we get into jack and Jackie's raw reactions to
key highlights from the game, I want to quickly note
that I interviewed them separately, so the three of us
didn't all watch the game together, even though it may
sound like that sometimes because of the way I edit
the clips together. There was one point when jack was
(04:09):
in the room while Jackie and I were watching the game,
but she kept looking over her shoulder back at him
to verify information. Then this cute exchange happened. The biggest
game is being played, and that was in ann Arbor
against Ohio's thing. Yeah you know, so right? What should
(04:37):
I not have told Bell? Distraction for you? How do
you know? I love that it just shows what a
normal family and couple they are, But knowing the emotional
toll that the game had on mom and Dad, I
appreciate them being willing to relive the roller coast of
(05:00):
feelings with me, and that roller coaster actually began the
year before the Super Bowl. Both John and Jim had
suffered bitter losses in their separate conference championship games during
the twenty eleven season, and Jim is still upset with
how that ended for him and the forty nine ers.
Your your mom told me that she kind of wished
(05:21):
that you guys both made the Super Bowl, but made
it in different years. Do you ever wish the same
thing that your super Bowl experience was against somebody that
wasn't your brother? Or are you happy with the way
it turned out? Yeah, there's there's other years I wish
we would have made it too. Um, I grew with
my Uh we could you really want to delve back
(05:45):
into that? You really want to go back into the
past twenty eleven? I thought we really were there. We
we had a call that when it gets us late
in the game, Giants fumbled on their own fifteen twenty
yard line and clear fumble that we were covered and
with two minutes left to go in the game, that
(06:07):
was ruled that the four progress has been stopped. Tonight,
I will put that play on tape with anybody and
call that maybe the worst worst call I've ever seen
in the history of football. I know, the worst call
I've ever ever affected a team that I was a
part of. I'll tell you what. The Brothers can't seem
to do anything alone, because John and the Ravens also
(06:30):
lost their conference championship game in twenty eleven, and it
was just as bit of a defeat, but there was
no controversy with the refs. Instead, it looked like the
Ravens were about to beat the New England Patriots when
they were down by just three points and in striking
distance with the clock winding down, a touchdown would win it,
or at the very least a field goal would tie
(06:51):
it and send it into overtime. But then two of
the most gut wrenching plays in Ravens history happened. It's
left in the AFC Championship Flacco Fire's end, Zong Todd
he robbed it, He drobbed it right in his hands.
(07:13):
That Sterling Moore stripped it away before Lee Evans could
get his second foot down in the end Zole Billy
Condon will try to tie this game with fifteen seconds left,
a thirty two yard field goal attempt from the right
hash Mark falled out. KIPI, Oh my god, he it.
(07:38):
We'll picture It's try to be AFC champions. I wish
I could share with you the words that could even
begin to convey the disbelief and the disappointment on the
Ravens players as they make a long job to their
locker room. As heartbreaking as that moment was, Ravens linebacker
Ray Lewis pulled his teammates together for a huddle in
(08:01):
the locker round. I'm trying to tell y'all, God has
never made a mistake. He's never made one mistake, all right,
So ain't about one play, Ain't about nothing. This year.
We did what we were supposed to do. We fought
as a team. We fought as a team that would
be one super Bowl champ crown at the end of
this year. That's it. So the way we feel, somebody
(08:24):
gonna feel like that tomorrow, and somebody gonna feel like
that in a week. That's a fact. And the fact
is we got to come back and go to work,
So make sure we finish it next time. That's all
we gotta do. Joe, you played your assos. You hear me, man,
I'm telling you, man, don't ever, don't ever drop your
head when it comes to a low stall, because there's
too much playing outside of this that people really going
(08:46):
through that's right here and makes us strong. Let's understand
who we are as a team. Let's understand who we
are as men, and let's make somebody smile when we
walk out of here. We got an opportunity to keep going. Man.
Let's be strong as a team. Man, Let's be who
we y'all rave on three talk about keeping perspective, and
John remembers Louis's speech, and then afterwards he headed to
(09:09):
the team buses back to the airport with his daughter Allison,
who was eleven at the time. I can remember losing
in New England and she was there and she whenever
she's there, she rides back on the bus with me
to the airport on the road games and ing Ingrid
sits next to Dick Cass you know, which is in
the couple seats there on the bus, and Allison, you know,
let's Allison sit with me. And I can remember the
(09:32):
same thing. I mean, her head like a forty five
minute ride back to Providence and she fell asleep, you know,
on my shoulder, and uh and I just just just thinking,
you know what, everything's okay. And then the next year,
you know, the days are long, but the years are short. Year,
and you know, three hundred and sixty four days or
whatever later, we're back, right back in the same thing.
(09:53):
The most talented riders in Hollywood couldn't have put together
a better scene. Despite injuries to superstars Ray Lewis and
trell Sugs, and despite an infamous mutiny meeting in which
John said the players attacked him that season, and despite
losing four of their last five games in the regular season,
the Ravens advanced all the way back to the AFC
(10:15):
Championship game, and of course it was against Tom Brady
and Bill Belichick. Hollywood would have it no other way
than to showcase the time honored rematch against the proverbial villains.
And then, of course John got extra motivation from his
brother when he didn't even know he was giving it.
We heard last week that John was watching the end
(10:35):
of the forty nine ers game on the big boards
during the pregame with coach Belichick, and then they both
saw Jim win and earn a spot in the super Bowl.
My brother's going to the super Bowl. Yeah. And then
it hits you, it's like, I need we got to
go to the Super Bowl. I can't. He can't go
to the the super Bowl. Before we go to the Super Bowl,
we have to win this game. It just hits you, like,
we have to win this game, you know, just from
(10:57):
a life standpoint for the next fifty years of our lives.
And uh. And then when it happened, I mean, you know,
even when it happened, it was just surreal. It was
kind of like, you know, this is this even really happening?
This is never going to happen again. It was happening,
all right. The Ravens had actually avenged their AFC Championship
loss to the Patriots from the year before. Brady from
(11:19):
the shotdown on second down, steps up, fires to the
end zone that it isn't accepted, intercepted by Kerry Williams
and the Hayes in the Bard and the Ravens are
going to the Super Bowl. It's John Harball, It's Jim Harball.
It's a family affair for the Ravens and the forty
(11:40):
nine ers at the Superdomement. It's no easy task to
get there. For that to coincide, and then you gotta think,
was it the year before this is John and Jim's
sister Janie, that they both didn't get there, right, Maybe
it's just crazy. So you know, that's to think about
the year before. They're both in the same position to
(12:01):
get there, and so you get two years in a
row where they're at the very absolute pinnacle of their
sport together. It's pretty neat. Meanwhile, Mom and Dad were
at home watching everything in the conference championships unfold. First
they were elated to see Jim in the forty nine
ers get redemption in the NFC Championship with a twenty
(12:23):
eight twenty four win over the Falcons, and then to
see John join him there, well, they were in shock.
Was unbelievable. I mean, just stunned, you know, just stunned. Yeah,
the next year was redemption for both of them. I guess, yeah,
you know, if you want to, if you want to say,
(12:44):
fate played into that, I guess. And then all the
phone calls started coming in, you know, all the phone
calls from the media and all that stuff, and we
had decided that we weren't going to get into all
of that before the Yeah, before you had one joint
press conference. I remember that. Yeah, and we did a
(13:06):
radio thing out of Indiana, out of Bloomington because we
were down there that weekend and that's all. And John
asked us to come earlier to the game, um, you know,
to like on Tuesday, because I think we could help
(13:26):
them both out with different things that they had to do.
So I guess we did some of those for them,
because after Wednesday, the team's locked down, you know, so
that kind of kept your mind focused. And then all
the families coming in and everybody want their ticket. Where
(13:52):
do we get our ticket? So we couldn't be so
we handled that, you know, because they're all excited and everything.
And then it worked out good so we could. Man,
the best par was my dad being there, so yeah,
you know that was with his half Ravens had forty
(14:13):
nine ers? Was it a hatter a jersey? Was someone
had made it far? That's great. We had some amazing
pictures on the Man of the Crowd website of Grandpa
Joe Spede at the Super Bowl with his half Ravens
half forty nine ers ball cap. Grandpa Joe was born
on the island of Sicily on the southern tip of
Italy and came to the United States with his parents
in nineteen twenty at the age of five years old.
(14:35):
He became a mechanic and then known and operated the
Subpedie Nursery for thirty five years. He died one year
after seeing his grandsons compete in the Super Bowl at
the age of ninety eight. So sharing that moment with
her father was very special to Jackie. Yeah, so he
got to see that and good moment free to share
(14:57):
with him. Yeah, it was. It was a good, good,
good family moment. It really, it really was. It may
never happen again, you know, it could maybe a hundred
years from Yeah. The media got to meet Grandpa Joe
in New Orleans at a joint press conference before the game.
(15:19):
There was a press conference between John and Jim and
then another with jack and Jackie. You're gonna ask us
how we feel on this historic event. Jackie, who hasn't
better than us, no, buddy, And the coaching Super Bowl presser,
which by the way, is not normal. Head coaches on
opposing teams usually have separate individual time with the media,
(15:41):
but for obvious reasons, John and Jim were asked to
address reporters together well. In that media session, the brothers
unique personalities were on display. John showed up in a
suit and tie, looking all polished, and Jim showed up
in his regular practice garb of khaki pants and sneakers
and a black forty nine or sweatshirt with a matching hat.
(16:02):
And then one was much more chatty than the other two. Hi,
how you guys doing well? Welcome and thanks for coming.
And I just want to start by saying what an
honor it is for both of us to be here
with each other, no question about it. John went on
with a kind and gracious speech, thanking family members for
(16:23):
coming to support him, and thanking the media for being
there too. He talked about the teams and how hard
they worked to get there, and once he finished, the
room fell silent. People were waiting for Jim to give
his introductory words, but instead all he said was, I
concur how did you see John and Jim approach that
(16:44):
week differently? I think John was ready to shake hands
and slap backs a little bit more than Jim was.
This is John Eisenberg, columnist for the Baltimore Ravens. Just
looking at that, you know, I think I think it was.
It was obviously so awkward, just such an awkward situation
when you get down to it, it was awkward between
the two of them. How are we going to do this?
(17:04):
You know? And so I think John was like the
press conference on Friday morning, John was more engaging than
Jim was. Jim was just sort of, you know, give
me out of here. Jim was, get me out of it.
I don't want to be here. I can't. I can't
deal with this. And you know John was going to
have some fun with it. Yeah, you know. And And honestly,
if I may psychoanalyze, I think that's a little bit
(17:25):
the difference of Jim as a guy who's been in
the limelight more and and you know, John's a pro
and he's been through the Wars and he's seen everything.
But you know, you're in the super Bowl. He's not
going to go up there and laugh off the Friday
press conference. He's not. He's not going to do it.
So that gets back to what I said before. You know,
he's just more a little more you know, polished, and
(17:48):
so understanding of circumstances. Right. The brothers approaches didn't change
once the game rolled around two days later, John tried
to go talk to Jim during the pregame warm ups
at the Superdome, but the younger sibling just walked away,
so John decided to chat with the forty nine ers
David Akers instead, but Jim didn't want him talking to
his kicker either, so finally Jim relented and they chatted
(18:10):
before the game. It was like we were back and
we were playing in Its all started with Donald Pizza
when we were high school and my brother plays all
started from our game and I played for Donald Pizza,
(18:32):
which was the other team. And for that game, man,
it was huge. It was a great game, Harbor, and
we came out with a one to nothing victory in
the game. So it was a lot like that. Really
was much different. Okay, two questions about that number One,
what made you laugh at the handshake, because I that's
what you saw there? And uh, a capsule is what
(18:54):
those what those things are all about. The worst thing
in my judgment and all professional football and college football
that I would do away with in a heartbeat if
I if I were in a position to do so,
and that's handshakes. Handshakes to come out before the game,
and I mean, you're adrenaline is pumping, and you want
(19:16):
to kick the snot out of this guy. And there's
nothing about him. The laike you don't like. You don't
like anything. You don't like the way he combs his hair,
you don't like the way. You don't like anything about him.
And you gotta stick in your hand and say, coach,
good luck. Did you hear him great in his teeth?
He was doing it under a forced smile. Good luck,
(19:39):
And you gotta have a smile on your face. Press
cameras are there. You gotta, you gotta. Then the game
is over and you lose, and you walk across the
field and you have to coach. You're the winning coach.
It's harder for the winning coach, and is a losing
coach coach? Or guys really played hard? Did they? And
why in the hell did we win? That's what you
(20:00):
want to say, but you can't. Well, thanks coaching, good luck,
good luck Gray, and you are moving. You don't want
to go out, You don't want to prolonged discussion here.
You didn't, you didn't your due diligence, and now it's
time to go on. But it should be in pro football.
Before the game, he's down at that end. You're at
this end, you recognize him the hands. There is no handshake.
(20:22):
It should be allowed in the in the game of football.
In my judgment, cut it out, cut it out, you know, honesty,
Jim probably wouldn't hate doing away with it either. He's
created a stir on more than one occasion with his
handshake exchanges. There's the one with Pete Carroll when Jim
was accused of running up the score with the Stanford
Cardinal beating USC fifty five to twenty one. When the
(20:44):
two coaches met in the middle of the field, Jim asked,
what's your deal? That clip went viral, along with another
one when Jim was overjoyed with the San Francisco forty
nine ers went over the Detroit Lions. That enthusiasm led
him to aggressively slap then head coach Jim Schwartz on
the back during the postgame handshake. Schwartz didn't like it
too much and ran after Horball all the way down
(21:07):
the field and they were chirping back and forth. It
led to a little scrum with players in security getting
involved well. Jim and John's handshake after the Super Bowl
game was also eventful, but I'll get to that later.
So in that clip, John likened the Super Bowl to
this high school Pioneer High School, UM All Star game.
(21:27):
Can you really let I mean, is it really the
same when they played in their first Pop Warner football
game when they were in the fifth grade, we had
the same emotion that we had when they were they
played against each other in the Super Bowl. And that
was whether it was baseball or basketball, or hockey or football,
whatever it was. I mean when you got to the
(21:49):
game as a parrot, I mean you those are your kids. Yeah,
And people can't grasp that how much it is difficult. Okay,
they say, well, how you you must have felt at
the Super Bowl? No different than I did in the
fifth grade and they were playing hockey. Don't really different.
You're still conflicted a little bit. You're conflicted when they're
(22:10):
playing each other. Well, you're trying to figure out who wins.
How are we going to handle this at the end
because they're going to be in the back seat. You know,
they're not going to talk. Don't get, don't get you're
touching me the back seat. I mean, all the different
things did go on. Did you notice when they shook
hands Jim was trying to walk away, and John grabbed
at him and says, hey, I love you. That is
(22:31):
that is John the expressive one. Yeah, yeah, probably I'm
probably in that sense. Well, I think what he was
saying is maybe what he was saying is no matter
what happens in this game, because who knew what was
going to happen, right, right, I love you, right, you know,
(22:51):
And Jim was probably focused already on the game, right Yeah, yeah, yeah,
not that because when they both turned, it's like that's
their game face. Speaking of game faces, Jackie had a
pretty serious game face herself. Just before the game, TV
(23:14):
cameras cut to a quick shot of Jack and Jackie
sitting in their seats. The difference in Mom and Dad's
facial and body language is night and day. Jack is
sitting up in his seat and beaming with this huge smile,
and right next to him as Jackie slumped over in
her chair and she looks like she's just sick to
her stomach. Next one, Thiswie's a bit shorter for the game.
(23:37):
Jack and Jackie hamball mom and Dad and Mom wants
to pause. You have a big ground your face before
the game starts, and Jackie looks absolutely miserable like this,
she wants to get out. So here's my question to you,
and I'm going to ask her of this too, that
Chris Christie's wife. Oh, you guys are tight with Chris Christie.
(24:00):
Were we didn't know who they were? Eric Holder right
down there? Oh yeah, I just noticed that we got
forty niners right there? And okay, but here's my question.
She looks so miserable. Do you think it's possible that
she's the one that took out the lights at halftime?
(24:24):
Can you can you vouge that it wasn't her? I know,
I can't, okay, and I can't say that before the
game started she constantly thought that the game should end
in a tie, right, and she wanted it to end
in a tie, So taking the lights out in the
game would have had to have been suspended or it
would have been as close to a tie she could
could could have gotten. They couldn't have declared a winner,
(24:45):
could they, So it might have been maybe maybe the
conspiracy has been uncovered. There we go. I mean, ray
Lewis and Trill said they have lots of conspiracy theories,
they never thought about this one. What are you laughing
at Why no idea? Were you not nervous? I have
no idea. In the game, all you could think about
is something like this, where a play took place, there
(25:06):
was a completion, and you just scratched your head and
there would be an appearance of favoring one over the other.
Yea to read of the game. I just remember just
almost being comatose. I mean, didn't want to show it.
Poker face, no smile, no hand gestures, nothing right. But
they were good. CBS was good with us. They told
(25:26):
us that they would they would not only coming out
of timeouts, so I'm thinking this. They told us the
only filmed us when they came out of timeouts, that
they would film us at the end of the game.
So they kind of put us on on alert to
kind of help us a little bit, which I thought
was very very good of them. Just for the record,
(25:47):
Jackie confirmed to me that it was not her who
switched off the lights during the game. She thought it
was Beyonce's performance that sucked all the electricity out of
the stadium. But you know, Jack's right, everyone would have
run to their every movement had the cameras been on
them throughout the game. So it was probably good that
nobody could watch and cycholanalyze their reaction. When the Ravens
(26:09):
jumped out to a huge lead to start the game,
Quarterback Joe Flacco throw three touchdown passes in the first half,
and John's Ravens went up by fifteen points, heading into
halftime with a twenty one to six lead. Caught bowing
touchdown Ravens and the Ravens strike first in Super Bowl
forty seven, Blacko play action rows and Zoll puts down Ravens.
(26:35):
Dennis pit of the receiving aap, steps up in the pocket,
throwing deep. He's got Jakobe Jones open at the ten.
Jones makes the catch, He's not touts, bounces up, spins
out of one tackle, running at the left pass mark
lunchers in touchdown. Things only got worse for Jim in
the forty nine ers when Jacoby Jones returned the second
(26:55):
half's opening kickoff for a Super Bowl record one hundred
and thirty. Hey could twenty flow flack, Hey will go
all the way, Jack Cobb, y'all, There's no way mom
and Dad could have stood up and celebrated such an
explosive start, because how would that have looked in San Francisco.
How would that have looked to Jim? And at the
(27:16):
same time, they couldn't have been upset by the forty
nine or slow start either. I mean, really, how are
they supposed to act? Jack said, they try to keep
a poker face right. Well, even though John said he
was so proud of the way his parents handled themselves
the entire week, he said when he went back and
watched the game, he could see the pain on their
(27:37):
faces after each and every single play. What they went
through that week was just an incredible enormous thing. I mean,
and the thing I really love about it was they
were able to enjoy. I mean, they were rooting for
both of us to win that game, even knowing probably
in the back of their mind, it would be better
if they didn't have to deal with both of us
being in the game, because it was going to tear
him apart in a sense. But they didn't allow it
(27:59):
to tear him apart. They were able to be one
hundred percent committed to both of us and not lose
anything along the way, not split allegiances, not feel guilty
about it. You know, I think they enjoyed the week
they had fun. They were over at our hotel with
our people and going out to dinner and being in
meetings my dad was and my mom, and then going
over to their hotel and being around that and seeing
(28:20):
the family and entertaining my mom and did did such
a great job of taking the pressure of us because
we had so many family and friends in They were
always like they were working. And yet when I see
clips of them in the press box during the game,
then I see the pain on their faces because they
had to do everything they could not to react, I
mean one way or the other, like and how could
you react? We make a big play the kickoff return
(28:41):
goes back at the beginning of the second half, and
as excited as our friend, they got to be just
as crushed for Jim, one hundred percent excited for us,
one hundred percent crushed for Jim. At the same time,
through the whole game, every single play, every single call,
everything that goes up or down one way or the other,
they had to relive that that kind of nundrum every second.
There was a break in the game with some exchanges
(29:03):
that Jack and Jackie never saw. John and Jim had
this back and forth while the lights were out for
thirty four minutes during the blackout in the third quarter,
their pressure and he sucked back in the forty yard line. Joe,
why's the clock stops? All for the lights on the
(29:26):
forty nine ers side of the Superdom are out? And
only imagine the scramble officials are going through. Hey, I'm
reminded that Motown song. There ain't no mountain high enough,
and there ain't no valley long enough, and there's nothing
that's gonna keep us for winning this championships, not this
and not nothing. We're gonna win this game no matter
(29:48):
how long. It tastes right out of the phones, you
know what I mean? Okay, yeah, with their headsets are
out and they're trying to make ours be out too.
Back on your phones. But if the phones don't come
on because one side phones go off in a regular season,
you don't shut the other side off. So we're the
visiting team, our phones are intact. We should be able
(30:09):
to We should be able to keep our phones. It
should go to Roger and he is there coach allowed
to be in their huddle? Does he allowed to be
in their hole? Hey? John was complaining to the officials
that Jim was in the huddle on the field. Can't
let him waltz right into the huddle. Smile this face.
(30:33):
I'm not talking to my cars, but they'll make it
progress and starting to come up. Yeah, they've got the
grid coming back up. Yeah, we're now read it to
resume Max, We're ready to resume the Super Bowl. The
smiler comes on my face as I watched John with
the huddle part. Yeah, is he allowed to be in
the huddle? I mean I flashed back. I mean with
(30:54):
numbing repetition of time after time after one way or
the other. We want to let him get away with that.
Brain You want to let me get away with that?
I mean to jack In myself, got you, Yes, Yeah,
We're like we're the refs. Yes. How long are you
gonna let him do this? He pulled this? The great
(31:15):
was a lawn morning we had in ann Arbor where
we lived. We had a long sloping backyard right and
we had a little smaller front. It was flat, so
there would be they worked it out that we'll alternate.
I'll do the front, you do the back this week,
and then next week I'll do the do the back
and you do the front. It'd be it'd be like
(31:39):
the bag glass and did in the back glass week
got in the front, Well you didn't, And then they
would come tell me, I can't remember. Everything has to
be fair, Everything has to be fair. And the first
thing they want to do is go to some sort
of an authority, whether it be officials or parents or somebody.
They can't work it out. Somebody's got to be the
(32:02):
final voice in rectifying whatever the injustice is because they'll
never agree. They'll never never agree to disagree or anything
like that. Okay, well, now that I know that this
is your first time watching this, um, I understand this
one's gonna be a little bit harder. It's that final
drive Cavernick takes to snap. But the role was right rolling.
Look at the back of the ends when as Boss
(32:23):
doesn't throw a doll roles and didn't complete what I'm
gonna let them talk on me like that crazy man
back was of all the quick of the flat call
by Grande jarget complete And now the forty nine ers
Super Bowl will come down to fourth down. But keeping
out we went day. Let's go Let's go big. That's
(32:44):
why you stand up at right for a stadium that
lacked electricity for breath Alice when I've never seen this play.
I mean I've seen it, but not like this preseason,
all those OTAs it blitz and complete no, complete right
(33:17):
stop at forty niners all screaming for an interference call
in an air corner not to come read aught it?
What their contacted old him, Yes, is the referee going
(33:39):
to throw that? With the Super Bowls on the line. No,
he's not going through. And if this did it be
out here too? Thoughts? Have you have you ever taken
a position? I mean it's it's been years removed and
so John and Jim can laugh about it more. Johnna
(33:59):
said that Jim still thinks that that was a PI.
Have you ever have they ever come to you? Said
theyways come to authority? Have they ever come to you
and say, Dad, what do you think? Was it a PI?
Was it clean? When the game was over, went down
to Jim's locker room and he was for about twenty minutes.
He was just by himself. He didn't want to see anybody,
and finally her send Dad in ju Golden and I
(34:23):
went in and he had that hardball look you know,
you get that hardball look the eyes. His lip was
quivern what do you think that last play? What do
you think? I was holding one and he was about
as far away from me, and I thought to myself,
(34:44):
I run through my how do you answer that? Yeah,
and you want to say, well, here's Jim, Jim there.
So Jim, you know, was past the interference. He really
he took the short end of that one. But then
you'd be demeaning John, right, And if you if you
told him Jim, there are at that stage of the
game officials are just reluctant to make a call, then
(35:05):
you're you know, you're demeaning Jim. And he happened to
be the one that was fun far away from my nose.
So so I didn't say anything. I just I just looked,
and he just said a couple more time well, and
so I didn't say anything. And finally I think he
realized that maybe the situation that I was in and
(35:26):
he was in, so he let it go. So the
question went unanswered, as your question, well, okay, I respect that.
I respect that. How was it I noticed that on
that fourth down play you took in deep breath in.
Was I forcing you to revisit some feelings that you hate?
You didn't like that day, and it wasn't the play.
(35:49):
I mean, football experienced all the years, and you experienced
every kind of almost every there's always something out there
you haven't seen, but not much, right, But for that,
it recalls that. Yeah, that's the first time I saw
that last clip there, I mean the one where they
were both pushing at each other. The two players pushing
(36:12):
each other that Jackie's referring to is Ravens cornerback Jimmy
Smith and forty nine Ers receiver Michael Crabtree. Both were
engaged in hand fighting on the play. Smith had a
quick grab and Crabtree had a quick push off. Smith
fell down in the end zone and then the past
fell incomplete just a few inches away from crab trees
(36:34):
outstretched hands. I didn't see that. I didn't see that
one before. Um that was a tough one, you know. Yeah,
that was That was a tough one. And um, you
can't tell you can't take the callback. That's why I
(36:55):
had wished it it ended in a tie, but it didn't.
So it's it's but in the end, I don't know
what the official saw. I think he saw. I think
he thought the ball was overthrown. I don't know. What
(37:16):
he thought, but it kind of looked like the ball
was overthrown. But then the forty nine ers are gonna
think he was held. But in that last clip, offense
and defense was Offense was pushing defense off and they
(37:38):
were both going back and forth. They were both going
back and forth. So how I don't know how do
agree with or disagree with an official, But that's a
hard call. It's a hard call. So it is what
it is. Yeah, that's the only thing you can say,
is what it is. And yeah, Jack told me that
(37:58):
after the game. He it was maybe twenty minutes or
so later that he went into the forty nine ers
locker room, and he said that Joan and Jim, whenever
they disagreed, they'd always go to a higher authority to
kind of, like, you know, be the referee. And Jim
had asked Jack, you know, what did you think? Do
(38:19):
you think it was a holding? Did Jim ever ask
you that? No, he never did, because I don't think
that's a tough position to be put in. No, he
probably doesn't think I know enough about everywhere. But I
went back when you do. I watched that clip over
and over and over and over again. Whenever they showed it,
and I guess I always felt and looking at it
(38:43):
that the ball had been overthrown, so he wouldn't have
had a chance anyway, in my own mind, that's what
I taught. And that last clip I never I didn't
see that they were both tussling hustling. Does that change
things for you now? I don't know. No, no, no,
(39:04):
not really, because in a way they were both wrong.
They were both interfering with each other. So how do
you call that? Anyway? It was a tough It was
a tough ending. Yeah, that was very tough ending and
wouldn't have been better if there was a blowout? Or
(39:26):
did you like knowing that it couldn't even a tie?
Obviously that's your idea. Well, I think you liked that
it was close. I don't know. I don't know what
I liked. I wasn't thinking about that at the time.
I think that and why, And remembering the game, I
think in the second half that there were Yeah, there
(39:52):
were a lot of bad calls against the Ravens and
that helped and the forty nine ers catch up, right,
and I've made the game closer, which of course the
NFL loves that, right, Yes, I love that, and so
does television because wow, nobody's turning the set off, you know,
(40:13):
So then then my little mind starts working, Well, is
this all planned? What the officials? Did you think the
blackout played in the forty nine ers favor? Oh, since
they were so far behind, the raven said the momentum
that maybe I don't know. I just think that, you know,
(40:36):
you can go back and forth on all of that,
but the official called it, and what can you do.
You can go back and forth over all you want to.
And I knew how Jim felt. I definitely knew how
(41:00):
he fell and that it would be hard for him,
and it would have been hard for John too had
it been on the other foot. After that, Raven's final
defensive series stopping the forty nine Ers three times from
the five yard line, and the referees debated no call,
the game was essentially over. The Ravens drained the clock
to just four seconds with a few rushing attempts and
(41:22):
an intentional safety, and after Baltimore tackled forty nine Ers
returner Ted gin Jr. On the ensuing kickoff, the Ravens
were officially crowned Super Bowl Champions of the world. And
while John was one hundred percent happy that he and
the Ravens won, the scene on the sideline for him
wasn't like most coaches who get a gatorade bath and
(41:44):
go crazy with other coaches and players. Instead of an
exuberant celebration, John made his way to midfield to face
his brother or Super Bowl. Happen to be walking across.
Since my brother not just another coach, So you know,
a little bit of empathy goes a long way, and
(42:05):
it was pretty easy for me to put myself in
his shoes in that moment. You know, for a moment, Crod.
You remember how Jim has a history of eventful handshakes. Well,
while it wasn't caught on camera, this one was no
less eventful. John later told what happened during the banquet
(42:27):
when he was inducted into the Cradle of Coaches in
twenty fourteen. I've always been proud of Jim. I mean,
I've always always been excited about his success and just
seeing what he's been able to accomplish and everything else,
and I've always wanted to see him do well. Except
one time it was about that, and so we had
a chance to talk to the team today we're talking
(42:48):
about the season and the year and all that, and Jim.
I see Jim back there whispering to Dad, I know
where this is going. I could see what's about to
have it here, so and it didn't. I was gracious
that I didn't say anything, But now I'm gonna So
we get to the end of the game and it's
a miraculous victory for the Ravens and they make an
unbelievable comeback. I mean, that's what Jim Harball coach team
(43:10):
is all about. After the lights came back on. But
they come roaring back like we knew they would, and
you know, we find a way to get him stopped
in a goale a get stopping the kickoff. And there's
a split second theoryhere. You just you realize for a
moment that your team is the world champions, you have
won the Super Bowl, and that's that's an exhilarating thing,
(43:31):
you know. And I've noticed over the years that coaches
get picked up on the shoulders and they get carried
off and they do this, you know, or they or
they get gatorade thrown on the back of there. That
didn't happen for me, you know, I didn't understand, but
I realized I had to go. I had to go
across the field and shake the other coach's hand. But
it was my brother, you know, And that's that's a
little different. You know, that's a little tougher because at
(43:53):
the same time, you feel that great feeling, you know,
you feel bad for your brother, not as bad as
NFL for myself. If we'd a lost. I did feel bad.
So I go over there, and you know, it's when
Jim said the great things. He said, we had a
chance to get a little hug right. Never told his
story publicly, but I'm gonna tell it now. So we walk,
we walk, I walk across the field and I go
to shake his hand, and he's a big, strapping guy,
(44:15):
you know, shake his hand, look at him. I'm gonna
kind of, you know, get him a little, a little
man hug, you know, a little, a little bro hug
and say congratulations. And David, you can stand up here
and I can prescribe you beat me going for left
hand and hug. And Jim steps in just like that.
I didn't bombs like that though, David, he steps in
just like that. He says, don't be no hug. So
(44:41):
I was reminded that when I saw a picture up there,
you see it, and it's a picture, I'm like this,
I'm like okay. After the hug and after Jim disappeared
from the field, the confetti continued to fall and the
Ravens were presented with the Lombardi Trophy. Mom and Dad
made their way down from their seats to celebrate. And
(45:03):
with this next clip. You already heard Jackie's reaction to
it last week. It's the one where she said she
was proud of John because he had traveled such a
long path in Jim's shadow. Well, now let's get Jack's reaction.
When it was all said and done, they felt happy
and they felt sad at the same time. They made
this all happen for both of us. I think Jackie's
(45:27):
ever seen that. I don't remember saying that doing that. Remember,
I have no recollection to that whatsoever, of any of that.
That's crazy of that, Yeah, because the emotions we felt
were so conflicted or convoluted or whatever whatever word be.
(45:53):
I mean, I was just numb. I'm numb, numb. I
see that. It's like some other somebody else standing there
just it must be odd just to watch yourself. Do it.
If you don't even remember do it. No, no recollection.
It was just I had that feeling. I understand the
feeling I felt, but at that moment, I don't I
(46:14):
remember going down on the field. I remember seeing Ingrid
and Alison and John. I don't remember those words. I
don't remember that the three of us being there together
and sharing that moment. I told Jack, because we were
still up in the box, I said, we have to
get down to the field. Jack johns looking around. He
(46:35):
I think he was looking for us, and we were
the only two left in the box because the commissioner
had come in earlier, like ten minutes before the game
was over, and says, we're all going down out of
the field, and we said no, because we're watching the game,
you know. So they had all left so pretty soon
(46:56):
there's no way for us to get down there. So
when or Christie was up there, I thought that Chris
Christie's wife was sitting next to you. Yes, yes, and
he said to his guys, you take them down there.
So they got us down there and then we were
able to, you know, enjoy that moment with John because
(47:20):
he deserved to have that moment enjoyed and to be
joyful with him, you know, that's how I felt. I felt, Yeah,
he deserved this was huge for him in the Ravens,
you know, and as it would have been huge for
Jim and the forty nine ers said they won, you know,
(47:42):
but you can not not be joyful with the person
who won at the time. What that's your interaction with John?
Did you have an interaction with Jim after the game? Well,
when we got to the locker room, we waited for
(48:04):
quite a while and then finally Jack went in. You know,
I would never go in anyway, but and he went in,
and then it was like eleven o'clock at night then,
I think, and so we had no way back. So
we got on the forty nine or bus and we
(48:30):
got at the bus and Jack and I sat on
this side of the bus, and then Jim came on
and sat on that side, one row ahead of us,
and we didn't say anything. You know. It's like, I mean,
I've been through it so many times. When you lose,
(48:50):
you can't there's nothing to say after you lose. There
just doesn't, you know. But the heart felt moment for
me was when Jimmy got on the bus. Then Jimmy
is the second of jim seven children. He was about
sixteen years old at the time, and came and sat
(49:12):
down next to Jim and laid his head on Jim's
shoulder and Jim put his arm around Jimmy, and I
was just said, this is what this is what this
whole game's about to myself. And we were getting off
the bus and Jim I held him back a minute
(49:36):
and I said, Jim, who has it better than you
right now that your son put his head on your
shoulder and your arm around him, This is what this
game is all about, Jim, And he just looked at
(49:57):
me and know he said, right, you know, it's that
to me that I mean, the whole thing, the whole week,
the whole season for me was this is all about family.
And in the end, what does it come down to.
(50:18):
It comes down to your family, right, I mean, what
a culmination for both of them and the biggest game
in the world, the world really, yeah, you know, and
here they are. And I think I also said to
them and I said, how proud I was of him, Jim,
(50:41):
that he brought his team to the pinnacle. It's regretable,
I said, You've got to be happy for your team. Yeah,
you've got to be happy for that success. Yeah. I
also talked to sister Joni to get her Super Bowl experience,
but she said she didn't remember a whole lot because
(51:02):
she and her family were exhausted. Her husband, Tom Crean
was the University of Indiana's head basketball coach at the time,
and she said this Saturday night before the Super Bowl,
Indiana beat Michigan to become the number one ranked team
in the country. The game ended super late at night,
so they only got a few hours asleep before they
caught their flights to New Orleans the next morning. She
(51:24):
caught up with mom and dad from there and stayed
by their side for most of the day. But it
was hard. It was a hard deal, you know. You
can't even express how difficult emotionally it was. And the
way it came down too. Ah. First you're like, oh,
I don't want Jim to lose, you know, because what
was it? The Ravens roup so much, and you're like,
(51:46):
oh no, And then you're like, oh my gosh, John
could lose in a last second touchdown. That the awful.
It was like that you were just torn like that,
just back and forth. You you were able to kind
of go to the exuper locker room and to the
press conference and you know, be excited for John and
(52:06):
Ingrid and Allison and feel that just total excitement for
all of that. And that's kind of like okay, you know,
and then you go to the other locker room and
just feel exactly where Jim was, exactly where we all
are after lossits but then losing that game, you know,
you want to question everything. You're going back over it,
and I think that you you know, you weren't over
(52:29):
there going, oh my god, John was so happy and
we're so happy for them, right, didn't do that. You're
just able to be present at that moment, in that
time after the game and after the trophy presentation and
after all the team buses left the Superdome. Then the
Ravens had a huge Super Bowl party and I was
(52:50):
there with the entire organization, from the players to the coaches,
to front office executives and low level employees like myself.
We all celebrated together and Mary J. Blige entertained everyone
up on stage. Then Ray Lewis got up there to
teach her how to do his signature squirrel dance. It
was an amazing, amazing night. I saw John there. He
(53:13):
was celebrating and talking with everybody. He also stuck close
to his wife, Ingrid and his daughter Allison. He had
his arm around that little girl for much of the night.
But the rest of the family, Jack, Jackie and Jonie
and her family were nowhere to be found at the party.
I knew, I knew them. We're going to be at
the super Bowl party. You know, there was no way.
(53:34):
The didn't even cross my mind because they were going
to have to be with Jim. But they did get
down there, and they were able for you know, half hour,
maybe twenty minutes, however long it was that they went
through the celebration and all that that they were fully excited,
jacked up out of their mind about the victory for us,
and you could see it on their faces and the joy.
It wasn't like they were disappointed. They were fully into
(53:56):
it that we won. And then to be able to like, okay,
then walk away from that and to write now, just
like that and I'm split seconds noticed, you know, change
and be fully immersed on the other side of that,
the defeat, you know, the thrill of victory, the agony
of defeat like the old ABC show Wild World of Sports.
I mean, it's really true, you know, and they lived it,
I think, like nobody else could. I asked Jack what
(54:19):
they were doing while the Ravens party was going on.
I don't remember seeing you there. Did you go to gym? No?
We didn't go either place. What did you do? Just walked?
We just walked around New Orleans with Tom and Jonie
and the kids. The game was over and we were
up watching the game and the confetti's comment and the
band's playing and they're bringing out the whatever they bring
(54:41):
out there for the presentation, and my wife and are
just sitting and looking at each other and we're just
it had like no feeling I'd ever had in coaching before.
You know, we had won games and we had lost games,
but I never had that feeling. I think when I'm
looking at my wife and I'm thinking, I didn't say it,
but I'm thinking to myself, John has just one maybe
(55:01):
one of the greatest prizes in all of sport. Yeah,
and why why don't we feel differently? So we went
down and met with John. Then we went over and
met with Jim, and we didn't go to either place.
We just walked with Tom and Jonie and her kids.
We just walked around New Orleans and Tom got a
text message from Doc Rivers, who was coaching the Boston
(55:23):
Celtics at the time, and he texted Tom and he said,
I can only imagine how you're in laws feel. And
Tom said, well, maybe could explain it to them because
we're having a difficult time. They're they're having a difficult time.
And here's what he said. A parent can only be
as happy as their unhappiest child. And it all made sense.
(55:45):
We had a great, great feeling for John, but he
realized there was another son, another child that was feeling
pain and hurt. Having experienced both the winning with John
and losing with Jim, it left us convoluted. Is there
a word like that? Conflicted completely? Yeah, but we were.
We were just and then when once we realized that,
(56:06):
then we could then we took joy and talked to
John then and understand why we felt the way we did.
You know, it was funny. I was one of my
favorite quotes from John. Happened actually a couple of weeks
ago at training camp, and what had happened? As a
reporter asked him when we were about to have a
stadium practice and it's one of those that you really
(56:27):
want to fancy get into. So a reporter said, so John,
with this practice coming up, he said something like, is
this all about the fans or are you still trying
to improve your football team? And then John says, love this,
He goes life is not a pie chart, Jerry. This
can be about both one hundred percent about the fans
and one hundred percent about improving the team. It's not
(56:50):
a pie chart. You don't have to give a certain
percentage to the fans and a certain percentage here. Would
you liken that to John and Jin that you didn't.
You can be one hundred percent happy for John and
this pie chart, but there can be a whole other
part chart where you're feel for Jim. You have just
put it together the way I have never been able
to put it together. I mean, that is so so perfect.
(57:12):
You can have it both ways, yeah, And it isn't
life that we share those emotions both ways. Sometimes they
happen in the same day, sometimes they happen in the
same game. Right. But you experienced the ultimate high, yeah,
and you experience the ultimate low and you and you
get both of them. That's and you can have it
at the same you can have them and it's not wrong.
(57:34):
I don't feel guilty right about either emotion. Right. Life
is not a pie chart. Yeah, there you go, John,
that's going to become mine. Just don't share that, keep
it to me. Okay. Well, that same pie chart analogy
ring true for Jim, that is exactly how I would
have describe it as one um tough loss, percent proud
(58:05):
of our team the way they fought back in that game,
and also add percent proud of my brother and happy
for his success, and one hundred percent really happy that
it had happened to that that experience happened to our family.
Well there, it is the first family to ever have
(58:26):
brothers face off as head coaches in the Super Bowl,
How they dealt with it, all the emotions that came
with it, all of it, and years removed, they still
talk about their experiences often. Not surprisingly, John and Jim
still debate the officiating, but more than anything, they reminisce
and are still astonished that it even ever happened. They
(58:47):
know how rare it was. Being the first the Harbors
had to figure out how to deal with it. On
the fly. There was no blueprint, but there is now.
The Harbors created it, even though it's very, very unlikely
that anybody will ever need that blueprint ever again, unless
(59:08):
I think we're both amazed by that that had even happened.
We're kind of amazed by the fact that, I mean,
when it was happening, it was amazing, and then when
it happened, I mean, you know, even when it happened,
it was just surreal. It was kind of like, you know,
this is this even really happening? This is never going
to happen again unless it's us again. So maybe we'll
make it happen again sometimes next time. On Man of
(59:34):
the Crowd, the final episode of this season and the
legacies that John and Jim will leave behind. What do
you think has been his legacy so far? Number one winning? John?
A couple of years ago, I had the audacity to
say that I thought you had a chance to be
the nixt Chuck Noel. Is that even is that realistic? Today?
Could he do that? Well? He could definitely stay here
(59:57):
twenty three years. Those relationships are everything. Steve Ashotti is brilliant.
I was just like, oh my god, this guy gets
it well. Azzi. It's not like we we like stay
in our own lanes. We drive in each other's lanes
all the time. We never throw a trump card on
the table. Do you think that Harbaugh is the best
coach and franchise history top time? He will not let up,
(01:00:18):
and if by chance he noticed himself letting up, he
would walk away. Hey, Man of the Crowd listeners, Before
you go, I just wanted to say thank you for
such a strong showing of support for the podcast. We're
(01:00:39):
very happy with how many of you there are out
there listening, and we'd love to have even more people
find us, So please consider rating the podcast and writing
a review. The more subscribers and positive ratings Man of
the Crowd gets, the more others will be able to
find it. Also, don't forget to continually check back to
our microsite at Baltimore Ravens dot com backslash Man of
(01:01:01):
the Crowd. It has content that compliments what you're listening
to here, including biographies of key interviews I've conducted, photo
galleries and more. And as always, I want to hear
from you after each episode. If you have any comments
or questions or whatever, hit me up on Twitter my
handle is at SG Ellison. I look forward to your
feedback and would love to interact with you. Okay, that's it.
(01:01:25):
That's all I've got, but I'll be back next week
with the ninth and final episode, Loose Ends and Legacies.
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