#9: Loose Ends and Legacies

Hear various perspectives, including from Ravens Owner Steve Bisciotti, on the legacy these two coaches will leave behind. Plus, enjoy a few cutting room floor clips.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Last time on Man of the Crowd, and it was unbelievable,
just stunned. I kind of wished it hadn't been both
Ravens and forty nine ers. She looks so miserable. Do
you think it's possible that she's the one that took
out the lights at halftime? She's been accuse of that

(00:20):
first time I've ever seen any part of that game
on video. Really, I've never watched the game. You've never
gone back, and I have no desire to ever see it.
To grab my hand there, give me a hard stiff
farm What did you say? This lip was quivern? What
do you think that last play? Would you think holding

(00:41):
one that a parent can only be as happy as
their unhappiest child. This is what this game is all about, Jim.
This is all about family and in the end, what
does it come down to? It comes down to your family.
From the Baltimore Ravens. This is Man of the Crowd,

(01:05):
a multi episode podcast that pulls back the curtain on
Ravens figures personal lives this season the horror BA Family.
I'm Sarah Ellison. We're going to turn this day with
an enthusiasm, go very fie because you are a fighter,

(01:30):
and that's what you are going to be today tomorrow
You'll hold it twice. When I started down the path
of creating this podcast a year ago, I was told
that I would know it would be pretty good if
I was cutting content that killed me to leave out,
and that has certainly happened. But then it dawned on me.

(01:53):
Instead of leaving all of it on the cutting room floor,
I decided to make the first half of this ninth
and final episode a smart sport of some of my
favorite clips that didn't make it into previous episodes. Now,
I won't get to everything that I left out, but
I will share a couple stories that I think you'll like,
and I'll also address some questions that I've gotten along
the way from listeners. Then I want to finish the

(02:15):
entire season of Man of the Crowd with some commentary
about the legacies that the Harbob Brothers will leave behind. Obviously,
those legacies are still being written, but they're on track
to leave incredible marks on the football world. And one
more thing. Before I get into the stories and legacies,
I need to express my gratitude to the people that

(02:37):
made this podcast even happen. First and foremost, I have
to say thank you to the entire Harbaugh family. Jack, Jackie, John,
Jim and Jonie were all incredibly generous with their time
and genuinely authentic and vulnerable in their interviews. As a reporter,
I couldn't have asked for anything more. Then I have

(02:59):
to thank the Harbow co workers, players, reporters, friends and
bosses that helped give me a three hundred and sixty
degree view of this family. Steve Bushotti, Ozzie Knewsome, Kevin Byrne,
Ray Lewis, Steve Smith, Jared Johnson, Jim Hackett, Rich Eisen,
Peter King, Mark Snyder, and many others were invaluable. Thank

(03:19):
you to everyone that helped make this podcast come alive. Okay,
so this first story I wanted to tell it in
episode six while I was talking about Jim and his
famous recruiting tactics, but long before he was scheduling sleepovers
with recruits and climbing their trees as the Michigan head coach.

(03:41):
Both Jim and John were pulling fun stunts for their
dad while he was the head coach of Western Kentucky
in the mid nineteen nineties. Jack had just been told
that the football program would be pulled, and then his
two sons decided to jump in and help. While Jim
was the quarterback of the Chicago Bears and John was
working at the Universe City of Cincinnati. No, I was

(04:02):
just beside myself, thinking that, you know, I'd been fired once,
but I'd never lost a program before, the actual program
away from myself. So I just kind of feeling sorry
for myself. Sitting in the office One day and Jim
was driving from Chicago after the Chicago Bear football season
was over, and he stopped by unannounced. What are you

(04:24):
doing here? I said, Well, he said, you should be
out recruiting. I said, Jim, they're killing us. You know,
we dropped our program. These schools are using it against
as we have no chance, right. He said, that doesn't
sound like you. How can I help? I say, can't
imagine anyway you can help me. So what if I
you're two coaches short. They took two when they re

(04:44):
we brought back the program. They took two coaches away
from us. They cut our operating budget in half and
cut thirteen scholarships. So he said, you're two coaches short.
Why don't you just allow me to be an assistant
coach unpaid. And by being an assistant coach unpaid, I
can recruit for you and in the offseason, and so

(05:06):
we have to call the president. And the key thing
for him was not paid. He jumped off. I got it. Yeah,
So Jim took the recruiting test, which you have had
to take. And so he's on the road and the
first call he made was to a guy in Manatee, Florida,
by the name of Willie Tagger, quarterback. So he went
down and visited him. A great story about that. So

(05:28):
he went down to visit him on his first trip
down there, and Willie came up for a visit, signed
with us, became a starter force for four years. At
one time he an All American. One time he was
the leading rusher in the history of college football as
a quarterback. And he's now the head football coach at

(05:48):
the University of South Florida. And that was Jim's first
So what did he just like call him? Did he
walk in? The first call? I heard it? It was
Willie Tagger? Hello, Willy, this is Jim Harball. Yeah, yeah,
Jim Harball. You ever heard of Jim Harball before? Yeah,
Jim Harball. I heard a place for the Chicago Bears. Jims,
Well that's me, he says, Well, put my Dick on

(06:11):
the phone, just amaz. So my Nick isn't here, but
my dad is. He's the coach of Western Kentucky and
I'm recruiting for him now. And what are you doing?
On Tuesday? Willie saw him in school and he said, well, oh, noon,
if I came by the school, where would you be?
He said, I'd be in the cafeteria. He said, I'll
see at noon on Tuesday. So Willie said, didn't tell anybody.

(06:32):
I didn't tell my mom, I didn't tell any of them,
any any of my friends. I didn't tell the coaches
because I knew I was being set up. Somebody was
setting up setting me up, and I didn't want to.
I didn't want to embarrass myself. So he said, I'm
in the cafeteria and I'm looking around and the principal,
Willie or someone here to see you. Well, he said, yeah,
who is it? He said, Jim Harball. So he walks

(06:56):
into cafeteria and now the kids recognize and that's kind
of how it went. But John played a significant role
in that. What was John doing? He was recruiting at
Cincinnati at the time, and he had that same area. Okay,
from Orlando to Tampa. Since Daddy upset that he's doing
double dipping. I don't think they ever knew, Okay, So

(07:17):
what he would do he would make a list for
himself that he'd make a list for us, and then
we'd get the list. He'd get the list to Jim,
so Jim didn't have to research. He was getting you
need to go to Kathleen High School or Willie where
ray Lewis came from, and got three players for us
out of there that John had recommended Jim. Then on

(07:40):
that trip to Tampa he did did Jim spending at
anybody's house and Clem, I'll tell you what he what
he was though, he really enjoyed recruiting. When you see
him doing it now, we would go into a home
and he would just take, Hey, how are you doing,
how's your grandmother? Oh? My goodness, why you're pick I mean,
he would just go on and on and Jim, I'm

(08:02):
the head coach. Could I say a few by the way,
you can point be able to get in here. This
is my dad. Now you turned around that Western Kentucky
team like you. I didn't even realize that the program
was going to go out when you had a couple
of losing seasons. Was there recruiting a key to turning
things around? No question, no question. Cool recruiting was the
bottom line. We recruited about twenty four twenty five kids

(08:26):
from Florida, all because of John and Jim. We played
McNeese State in the National Championship in Chattanooga and we
were we were a fifteen seed in a sixteen team tournament. Okay,
and John and Jim had seen the previous game on
They were able to watch it on television, so they
both called. It was like a hook up. We were

(08:47):
all on the phone together. They both said, Dad, you
can't win with the offense you're running. You got to
change your offense. I saw you change your offense. It's late.
We don't have to change your offense. Run the same formation,
but your offense is so vanilla. Wow. We got to
put some things in for you. And we won like
thirty four fourteen or something like fifteen out of sixteen.

(09:12):
So they both on the phone. I'm on the field
and the phone call comes in from from the two
of them. Dad, it's that easy. How you do it,
that's how you do it. So that's for they help
Not only did they recruit, but they helped us coach.
Listening to how all three teamed up to turn around
that program, it brings up a question that John and

(09:32):
Jim get all the time. They've been asked on numerous
occasions whether they could coach on the same staff. They
have both said that they could. So that got me thinking,
who's the head coach? Yes, yes, I want him to
be the head coach. I'd be thrilled to have that
be the case. You want to know my dream is
just because they all because Ozzie and Jim said, you're

(09:53):
so holistic. My dream would be used the head coach
and him the offensive coordinator. You know we'll be We'll
be co headach. I'll do the defense and the special team,
he'll do the offense. Or we'll kill her. On another topic,
one listener reached out to me because he wanted to
know why all the Jay names Jack, Jackie, Jim, John Jonie.
Did you guys plan Jay names? No, we're just not

(10:16):
very creative. I've told plenty of stories about John and
Jim running around the Michigan locker room and practice fields
all the time. But what was Janie up to the
whole time while her dad was coaching college football. Yeah,
you know I got taken back just too. I've seen
you know, I don't have a you know, really remember it.
Lave seen pictures of me on a football field and

(10:36):
my little dress, carrying my little purse at the smiley
face on it. And you know that's just what you
did every afternoon. You know, that was just part of
our culture. We went, we went to practice. And I
think that's a great testimony to the people that who
my dad worked for, you know that they wanted families
around and eventually who he became as a head coach.

(10:57):
And now if you look at all of us got
to we are. You spend time with your kids, and
you do it the way you can do it. And
on Sunday mornings we would go into the office and
I don't remember other people being there really that that
was my dad's time to get his film ready and
we would splice up the clips on the hot splicing

(11:17):
machine and I practice figure it out today, if I
had it in front of me, you could still do it.
After the fifth episode of the podcast, where Jim leaves
the NFL to go back to Michigan. One listener I
talked to assumed that Jim had to take a pay
cut to go back to the college rinks. The thought
was that professional coaches are paid more now. While that
would add to the fairytale story of Jim returning to

(11:38):
his slumping alma mater football program to save it, that
wasn't necessarily the case. NFL head coaches salaries are not
officially disclosed, but based on approximations out there, some college
coaches are paid more than those at the professional level,
and according to reports, Jim was the highest paid college
football head coach in twenty sixteen. Alabama's Nick Saban took
over that title this year, but Jim is still in

(12:00):
the neighborhood. And according to Mark Snyder of the Detroit
Free Press, Jim is worth every penny. Is seven million,
the highest paid coach in college football. And yeah he's
right there, Okay, Yes, he's right there with Nick Saban,
who's ready at that same level. Maybe because Jim got there,
Nick make it raise. But you know, look at you
look at what Jim is value to Michigan. That's a
drop in the bucket. You know, the school doesn't pay

(12:22):
a dying for it. It's from the athletic department that's
paying him. So you know, he the football program, you know,
generates the money and supports mostly athletic department because the
budget is sixty million dollars a year revenue, etc. But Jim,
the marketability and the value that Jim has brought to
Michigan football. I mean, the university applications rose last year

(12:44):
because Jim, because the football program is better. Season ticket
they had season ticket problems and Jim came back in
that first year. You know, they sold out of the
games again. And that's where the revenue comes from. Is
this massive one hundred ten thousand stadium, and that the
fact that there's out all the games, that's where a
lot of the revenue comes from. So I think that
these are the things where he's worth a lot more

(13:06):
money than previous coaches were. Well, Bretty Hops, thank you
three or four million, he's thinking seven, because we were
three or four million dollars more at this point. Yes,
if he went to the National championship, absolutely, NICKI gave
them a one hundred and seventy million dollars contract. You know,
and maybe Nike was going to do that anyway, but
Jim was the coach, and the fact that there was
all this attention on Jim. It was six months signed

(13:28):
the deal, six months after Jim was hired. So would
they have done it without him? Maybe would they have
gotten the Jordan brand to become the first football program
in the country. Probably not. Well, it's easy to see
how John and Jim got into football, right, But who
inspired Jack? If he never got into the sport, maybe
this incredible coaching tree that sprung from his roots never

(13:50):
would have taken off. Jack tells a story about the
day he knew football would be his life's passion. Oh
When I was twelve years old, a little town across
the Ohio went out for the junior high school football team.
First time I'd ever put on pads, first time that
I was ever introduced to football. Coach was barking at us.
It was about ninety five degrees, the sun was beaten

(14:13):
down on us. Then it came the day you had
to make your first live tackle. I'm in line. I'm
fourth in my line, the tackling line. I count over one, two, three,
four fourth guys. A guy named Ralph Ralph weys one
hundred and eighty pounds in the seventh grade, and I
weigh about ninety six. So now I'm lined up or

(14:35):
else got the ball. He's got a little snotballs coming
out of his nose in the seventh grade of way back,
but they didn't have eyebrows here and eyebrows here. They
just had one straight eyebrows brown. And they looked me.
Ralph is a great guy, but he looked me. Snotball's
coming out of spit coming out of his lip. Ralph
comes at me and I rolled my hips, dried my

(14:56):
face up into his chin, and he lifts me off
the He's carrying me down the field. I'm holy, my
legs are dangling in the air, driving his four arms,
driving the ball up into my chest, knees up into
my abdomen. I'm going back and holding on and I
don't know how long. But for some reason, Ralph might
have gotten tired, or he might have felt sorry. I

(15:18):
don't know what it was. But he hit the ground
and I'm on top of him with my arms wrapped
around him, and I'm thinking to myself, jack hardball football player,
I just made my first tackle. I made up my
mind at that moment. Two things. I knew what I
wanted to do the rest of my life. I wanted
to be involved in football as a player or a coach. Well,

(15:40):
I needed to be involved in it, and I really
had a feeling for the game. And the other thing
was I was not going to go through life scared.
So you know how. An episode one, I interviewed my
two sons about how they would deal with playing each
other in the Super Bowl. That interview is by far
the one I get the most feedback about, which I
find ironic seeing as I've done around twenty five interviews

(16:01):
with some of the biggest names in the NFL. Anyway,
this is the last roundom clip O share, but it's
the one that inspired me to work my boys into
the podcast, and it also makes me feel comfortable taking
them and even my two daughters into the Ravens facility
from time to time while I work. In fact, it's
probably the most inspiring clip to me overall. Well, we
try to do in Baltimore basically is just kind of

(16:22):
what Dad did for us. Is is we want we
want the kids around, We want the coaches, kids in
the hallways screaming and yelling and running around and having fun,
throwing balls, knocking over you know, breaking breaking lights. I mean,
we want them around. We tell the players you can
bring your kids anytime, bring them the training camp. We've
got a place for the families. They sit there under
the under the overhang, and the kids can run around
and go crazy, jumping the domines, play catch, whatever they

(16:44):
want to do, and it's not like it's a big distraction.
And the thing was always it's going to be a distraction,
ever been. And then the daughters as well. So I
have a daughter, were the only child. She is fourteen
years old, so I'm really sensitive to that. Why is
it always the boys? You know, she didn't want to
come around that much more. She wants to come around.
She's gonna be around, She's gonna be a part of it.
And she's uh, she comes around. She's on the sideline
every every national anthem, she comes walking over and stands

(17:06):
next to me. We're getting ready to play the Super
Bowl and she was on the sideline and we're looking
over Uncle Jim and it's just one of those unbelievable
moments and it's it was, it was, it was great,
and it was tough. And everything else, and you're nervous
and you don't want to screw it up. And she
just she says, hey, dad, right after the national anthem,
Alicia Keys. I think it was right, Remember national anthem

(17:26):
Alicia Keys. So we're like, wow, Alicia Keys, it's pretty good.
You know, I didn't really know she was. I'm like,
who's that. She goes, yes, she's good. Dad. So so
she whispers a marry she says. She says, uh, hey, dad,
we can do this. You know she's she's eleven years old,
you know, so she's a part of the whole thing.
Players will come to you sometimes they'll have something with

(17:47):
her family. I mean we say family comes first, and
then we tell them, you know, there maybe an art
and art deal. They're having a baby, and and you know, well, no,
you know you kind of that's not important anymore. It's
like you're way better off, you're way ahead of the
game if you just let them go do their family thing.
Most of the time, they're gonna get back anyway. They're
gonna be there. But in the locker room they go
back and they tell the other players. At our level,
they just say, you know what, coach is right, he's

(18:09):
a man of his word. You know, we care about
your family. My kids can come over. They bring their
kids over on Saturday morning. We've got daycare set up
for him. Kids are going crazy. Mom's happy. Three four
or five kids can roll in strollers through twelve years old,
and then mom's got a morning off before dad travels
to play in the NFL. I mean to me, it's
like it's supposed to be family. It's supposed to be fun.

(18:30):
What are we doing here? I mean, this is not
We're not solving the world's problems. And maybe we are
solving the world's problems in a way, you know, just
by doing things the right way and taking care of
one another. And that's the biggest gift that we got
drawn up from our dad and mom, solving the world's
problems by focusing on the family. There might be something

(18:51):
to that. Okay, let's finish this podcast up by talking
about John and Jim's football legacies. I'm not gonna say
too much more about Jim's legacy because I've already touched
on it in previous episodes. Remember Snyder said that Jim
is already reaching legend status at Michigan and then he'd
cement that status with the national championship. Well. I also
asked Snyder where Jim ranks among college coaches today. I

(19:14):
don't I think that you have to judge that based
on accomplishment, since that would make Nick Saban the best
college coach in the country. Because Nick Saban the most
successful and Amyers probably right after him right there. I
think Jim has the opportunity to do that. He has
the opportunity to build a program and be a dominant program.
But until he does it, I think he can't really
claim to be, you know, the most accomplished in terms
of the most in terms of the best, I think

(19:36):
that that's that's a pretty subjective term, and I guess
that there's a lot of different places. I mean, you know,
I think that people thought he was one of the
best things in Stanford because he took this program from
the ashes, you know, built it into an Orange Polt
championship team. So I think that the perspective is different too.
It is hard to argue with the accomplishments of these others.
Nick Saban has led Alabama to five national titles in

(19:59):
Urban has won three with two different teams in Florida,
and Ohio State. But where Jim could get an edge
is by getting it done at both the pro and
college levels. Jim Hackett, the interim athletic director at Michigan,
compared Jim to Paul Brown, who was one of just
four coaches in history to win titles at both levels.

(20:19):
While Jim didn't win it, he obviously advanced the Super
Bowl forty seven. And the goal is certainly to take
Michigan to a national championship and come out victorious. And
as competitive as Jim is, don't be surprised if he
still makes a lot of noise. He's only fifty three
years old and has plenty of coaching left in him.
His coaching story probably isn't even half written yet. As

(20:42):
for John, I'll dive deeper into his potential legacy. He
could coach another fifteen years or so if he wanted so.
Obviously there's a lot to be written there too, But
let's start with something he's already accomplished, which former Ravens
linebacker Jared Johnson and I discussed do you think that
HARBA is the best coaching franchise history? Out of Remember,

(21:04):
Johnson played for both John and Brian Billick. And just
this year, John officially surpassed Billick as the longest tenured
head coach in the Ravens short franchise history. John's heading
into his tenth season. Billeck coached for nine and in
those nine seasons, Billick notched eighty five total wins and
johnahm asked ninety five in the same amount of time.

(21:24):
The Ravens only other head coach, ted Mark Sibrota, coached
three seasons. Where does he rank in the NFL? Johnson
pointed out that John has been consistent, and that's true.
He didn't have his first losing season until his eighth year,
when the team was decimated by injuries, including the franchise
quarterback Joe Flacco, top wide receiver Steve Smith Senior, and

(21:45):
defensive leader Terrell Suggs. And that was his only losing season.
Two He's been in the playoffs in six of his
nine years and won a Super Bowl. So where does
that put John among today's active coaches? Belichick absolutely have
to go number one just because of the the Super Bowls.
But I mean John is up there, you know, I
don't know, three, four or five somewhere. Definitely a top time.

(22:07):
John agrees that Billichick is not only number one today
but maybe the best of all time after him, though,
among today's coaches, there's really just the next tier of
guys that are fighting it out for pecking order, and
it's hard to be definitive until everything is written. But
what about going forward? What does John have the potential
to do? We already know John's goal from episode two.

(22:29):
Here's a brief refresher from Ozzie Newsom. And he wants
to be the greatest coach ever. And it's no doubt
in his mind that's what he wants. That's a legitimate goal. Yes,
he wants to be not some pie in this guy, No, no, no,
he wants to be considered the greatest coach that ever coach.
And he works at it. I mean, and he works
at it on a daily basis, you know. And it

(22:49):
could be some times well I think, okay, well we
kind of got it, well we want it, and he'll
come in there and say, what do you think about this?
You know, So he's always pushing the envelope to be
the best. John will need to be very successful in
this league and stay in it for the next decade
and some change. And if that sounds like a long time.
In today's NFL world, it is, you don't hear of

(23:11):
too many people having that much dang power, especially with
a single franchise. But that's actually not unreasonable for John.
Peter King, a longtime respected NFL journalist for Sports Illustrated
and now the MMQB dot Com, told me that he
thinks John could become the modern day Chuck Noel. And
if you're not familiar with him, Noel lasted twenty three

(23:34):
years as the head coach for the Pittsburgh Steelers, and
along that way he won four Super Bowls. To hit
that twenty three mark, John would have to more than
double the time he's already spent in Baltimore. He'd be
here until the year twenty thirty, and John would be
sixty seven years old. King presented his idea to John, John,

(23:55):
you have over the last nine years, really done a
really good job in terms of establishing a program with
the Ravens. You've won ninety five games I think in
those nine years, so you've won basically ten and a
half games a year on average. You've won a Super Bowl,
and a couple of years ago I had the audacity

(24:16):
in print to say that you're such a kind of
a flatline guy. You're an intense guy, but you're a
flatline guy that I thought you had a chance to
be the next Chuck Noll in terms of staying power
in a place. Like hardly any coaches stay in a
place for twenty three years like Chuck Noll did. Now

(24:39):
Belichick is at seventeen. You're only at nine, But I
think you're fifty four years old, and if you so chose,
it strikes me that you could have a very long
life with the Ravens. Why have you been able to
establish that in Baltimore with the ownership group, the front
office group, and the players that you have. Well, that's

(24:59):
a great question, and it's probably a pretty elusive answer,
But most of it, I think has to do with
the fact that it's a team effort. Leave it to
John to point to the team, the team, the team
when asked about his success. He does it for a reason, though,
and it's definitely true here again, I'll explain that more
in a minute. Is that even is that realistic today?
Could he do that? Well? He could definitely stay here

(25:21):
twenty three years. Do you think so? I think it's possible.
This is John Eisenberg, columnist for the Baltimore Ravens. I mean,
it all depends on his relationship with the owner. You know,
and you said it's good. It's very good now. But
you know, Steve is loyal to the Ravens first and foremost,
and so if he thinks things have gone sour for

(25:44):
whatever reason, he would make the change. He will do it.
I mean there's no doubt. You know, the Billock thing
was one year after he's signed into a contract. He
you know, it hurt him, but it was loyal to
the Ravens. So he will make the change. But I
think it's it's set up. I mean, is it possible,
is the question. Yes, it is possible because it's set
up for that good relationship with the owner. You've had victory.

(26:07):
You've had a victory. It all depends on whether or
not you can sustain success. You know, you have to
do that obviously number one. Yeah, And so if he's
able to sustain some success, as I said before, I
mean I think that they love the way that you know,
the owner loves the way the team practices, prepares and
carries itself. You have a good GM, have a great GM.

(26:31):
Great GM. You've got stability on both ends. Joe Flacco
is going to be here for another few years at least,
So yeah, it's a good situation. Twenty three years a
long time. Something about it makes me think that, you know,
this is a great situation for him. It's perfect. Yeah,
very few times as an owner and the coach, I
think get along that well. I also asked Ravens Senior

(26:52):
vice president of public Relations, Kevin Byrne, if he thought
John could stick around that long. He also agreed John
could do it, but pointed out the major obstacles. What's
a different league because what Chuck Noll had is he
had all the Hall of famers for their entire career.
Now you know what happens. There are new rules. You

(27:13):
can't Rob Woodson comes and helps us win a Super
Bowl because Pittsburgh couldn't afford him under the new salary
cap rules. Ed Reid has to go somewhere else. In
the old days, you just kept paying your guys and
nobody could steal them. So it's a lot harder to
be at Chuck Noll today than it was in the past.

(27:34):
But I think that John can do it, and I
think we're an organization that recognizes that when you're good,
what the NFL is trying to do is making mediocre
or bad so that somebody else can be good. All
the rules are meant to take the best teams and
bring them back to the crowd, and it's meant to
take the worst teams and bring them up to have

(27:57):
a chance to get that run. That's why we haven't
any given Sunday. We can all beat each other. That's
why we're all nuts when we're getting up close to
a game and people are saying, well, it's only as Browns,
you're gonna kill him. Yeah, now we're not. You don't understand. Yeah,
they got a lot of good players too, So it's hard.
It's hard, but I think he thrives on it. Yeah,

(28:17):
we will make him the next Chuck Knoll is his
relentless style, intelligence, He will not let up, and if
by chance he noticed himself letting up, he would walk away.
King gave five reasons why he thinks John could actually
pull it off and become the next Chuck Null. All

(28:39):
five are linked to two main umbrellas, winning and relationships.
And isn't that true of any employee in any job
in America? Obviously, you must have success if you're gonna
make it in any business, including the NFL, because this
is a what have you done for me lately kind
of a league. But just as important, and I can

(29:00):
not stress this enough, is strong relationships inside your organization.
We saw with Jim that winning wasn't everything in San Francisco.
It must be accompanied by strong relationships. King said, and
I quote the owner, the GM, the quarterback. Those are
a head coach's three best friends, and Baltimore is rock

(29:21):
solid at that tree of spots for a few years minimum.
With that background, let's take a look at John's track
record and then I'll take you inside the relationships he
has with who King says are a coach's three best friends. Okay,
so the first reason King says that John could be
the next check Knol is because he wins. Period. He's

(29:42):
averaged ten point five total wins a year, including the playoffs.
Number two. King says that John wins in January, and
that's when the postseason comes around. And since Sehn took
over in two thousand and eight, the Ravens ten playoff
wins are the second most in the entire league. He's
just one win behind who else? Of course Bill Belichick

(30:03):
during that same time. What do you think has been
his legacy so far? Well? Number one, winning, This is
Raven's owner, Steve Bushotti. Number two, carrying on the hardball
tradition of winning. And as I got to know the family,
it was clear that a lot of his greatness was
learned on the practice fields and at the kitchen table

(30:25):
with his father, who was in it his whole life.
So he had already seen the stresses of the job,
and I think that increased his chances of success significantly,
you know. And so legacy, I don't think it's written yet.
I think that the error was still pointing up and

(30:47):
we're not satisfied. And I don't think it's fair to
define a legacy for at his age. Yeah, it's true
that it's not fair to define John's legacy yet when
he has more than a decade of coaching left in him.
But it's important to note that Bashotti said he does
view his head coach as a winner. Okay. The third

(31:07):
thing King says John has going for him is that
he has a franchise quarterback in Joe Flacco. Hey, even
Brian Billick said that he can't help, but wonder what
he could have accomplished with stability at quarterback and John
has that he's had it from the beginning. John and
Flacco came to Baltimore together in two thousand and eight.
Flacco was thirty two years old with plenty of football ahead,

(31:29):
and he's already proven that he can win a Super Bowl.
You and John are kind of in this unique spot
where you came in together, You're both rookies together, have
a lot of success together, kind of always be known
as like the Harbaugh Flacco era. Do you have an
appreciation for how rare that is for you too to
have to come in together like that and still be together. Yeah, definitely.

(31:50):
I mean, you know, not to make people list anywhere
as long as John has and fortunately myself to say,
it's definitely been in the cool ride, and you know,
the relationship has definitely developed over the last nine and
years to where it is today, and you know, definitely
don't take it for granted. How would you characterize your
guys as a relationship now? Is it just easy? It's open? Yeah,

(32:12):
it's easy, it's opened. You know, it's it's not you know,
you don't get worried about seeing the head coach walk
through the hallway, things like that, you know, we have
a good friendship, and it translates, translates a good communication
on the field and get things done. And does he
use you as kind of a mouthpiece in the locker room?
Does he ever come to you and say I need
your help with well? I think he uses a lot
of the veterans, you know. I think we meet with

(32:33):
them a pretty regular basis and bounce things off to
each other and make sure that they're communicated with the
rest of the team. And I think when your quarterback
follows the head coach, everybody else can kind of fall
into suit. The fourth reason why John could stick around
for twenty three years, says King, is his rapport with
his players. I won't go too much further into that.
You can see episode four for more about John and

(32:55):
his relationship with his players. King's fifth and final reason
that he thinks John can last is because he has
a front office that believes in staying in the course.
This one is huge. King told me that John must
know that he has one of, if not the best
front offices in the league, with general manager Rozzie Newsome,

(33:15):
GM in waiting Eric da Costa and owner Steve Bushotti.
And on top of it, Bushotti's philosophy on winning is continuity.
You know, there was some talk around town after the
twenty sixteen season that John was on the proverbial hot
seat because the Ravens had fallen short of the playoffs
for the third time in four years, but Steve actually
extended his contract during the off season. After that, Eisenberg

(33:38):
said that john seat was never hot. In fact, it's
as cold as a January playoff game. It's not like
John suddenly forgot how to coach after going to the
playoffs in six of his first seven years and winning
a Super Bowl. The Ravens were close to advancing two
other times. Only one time did the Ravens not have
a shot under Harbaugh, and that was in twenty fifteen
because Flacca was lost to his season ending injury, along

(34:00):
with other key players like Terrell Suggs and Steve Smith Senior.
WHI John has going for him is when those inevitable
season changing challenges outside of his control occur, is that
he has a strong relationship with an owner who doesn't
have knee jerk reactions. Bashadi explained in the Ravens twenty
sixteen end of season press conference that he believes stability

(34:21):
will lead to long term success. The business model that
he sticks by is continuity with quality business partners that
he trusts. What's your number one opinion that you want
everybody in your organization to be aware of going into
twenty seventeen that the pitchforks are out? You know, I mean,
they know it, the one the one thing I guess

(34:46):
is that I want them to know. I guess I
want my fans to know that. Um. I think John
can coach better. I think Ozzie and Eric can draft better.
I think Joe can play better. And I think if
all of them do it, and I think they're they're
capable and determine to be better, then I think next

(35:09):
year we're sitting here with a playoff caliber team. And
I really believe that. And so if you get improvement
from quality people, then they I believe that they can
collectively bring this team back to prominence. Steve, is there
a way that you need to see next season the

(35:29):
twenty seventeen season going trajectory? It's taking before considering any
potential changes. No, I can't quantify it. I you know,
if if if if Joe goes out for the year
in week two, we're in a grade with a curve.

(35:52):
We have the kind of injuries we had last year.
I graded with a curve last year at five and
eleven UM. So I just can't I can't project that
out because there's there's so many variables that go into that.
Use the term the fifth forks are out. Are you
holding water? Is that a reference to No, it's a
reference to them. It's a reference to the people that

(36:15):
want to solve my problems. And the problems are always
it's the solving. The problems are always the exact same.
Give me the transcripts of every press conference, this press
conference that I've had since his first year at the
end of O eight and sixty one page is worth.

(36:38):
This solution to every single problem is fire my coach,
fire my GM, fire my offensive coordinator, fire my defensive coordinator,
and fire Joe, over and over and over again. Didn't
matter whether we got to the divisional round or the
AFC Championship game. They were calling for Dean PiS's head
in the middle of our Super Bowl year. He is terrible,

(37:01):
and so I put up with that. And it's easier
to put up with it. When you're winning, it's harder
to look them in the eyes and read this and
say it's not the solution. I didn't get where I
was by just firing people. I think it's a bad model,
especially in this business. And so but I don't have it.

(37:24):
I don't have as much to fall back on except
that as then say, trust me, this is the right
way to run a business. And that's not good enough
for probably a quarter of our fans. They're like, well,
then you're over the hill and you're an idiot, And
that's fine with me. I'd be more than happy to
take some blame for that if that's what they consider
to be my weakness. So Bashatti's point of continuity being

(37:47):
a good long term business model. Chucknell himself didn't advance
the playoffs every year. In fact, he fell short in
his first three years, but the Steelers believe instability and
it paid off as an old later brought those four
Super Bowl trophies home. The Steelers continue that business model
with Bill Kauer and now today with Mike Tomlin. Kauer
missed the playoffs in three consecutive years, but he eventually

(38:09):
got them back on track and won a Super Bowl.
Tomlin filled to reach the postseason three out of five
years after lifting the Lombardi Trophy, but now he's got
them back on track two and they've been to the
playoffs the last three years in a row. You know,
I bet there are a large number of coaches who
would love to have an owner like Steve Bushotti, who
believes instability, who would stand up at a press conference

(38:30):
and say, I know we've come up short, but I
still believe in my head, coach. And I also bet
that there are a large number of coaches that would
love to find a quality partner in their GM like
John has with Ozzie Newsom. How important is your relationship
with Steve and Ozzie and linked to winning? Right? That

(38:50):
those relationships are everything. And that's the missing thing in
the National Football League because the fault lines are pretty
clearly defined, the understood in our league like they are
in a lot of organizations. But everybody can see where
the fault lines are. In the National Football League, you know,
we just don't have fault lines, or if we have
the fault lines, we understand how to bridge them, you know.

(39:13):
And it's it's because I think fundamentally the people that
are involved, you know. And Steve Bashotti is brilliant. When
I first was exposed to him, it was at a
coach of symposium for assistant coaches that they ran, must say,
in two thousand and one, two thousand and two, that
Steve spoke at. And I heard him speak, and I've
never heard really anybody talk like he did before about

(39:36):
all the things were relationships and the dynamics that go
on and just just human relationships but trying to accomplish
things and coaches and all that. And I was I
was just like, oh my god, this guy gets it.
This guy so understands how how coaches think and how
people think, and he just so gets it. And I
just thought to myself, you know, man, if I could
ever this goes back to the god thing, and if

(39:59):
I ever a good chance, this league'd be with somebody,
probably with him, you know, probably with somebody like that. Man.
He's just he'd gets him, he'd get me, you know,
we would, we would really get along. I just thought that.
Then I forgot about it, you know. Then this thing happened.
And he is so passionate, so ridiculously brilliant um and

(40:19):
so uh animated and descriptive in the way the ways
to be able to express an idea. And he's such
a pit bull, you know, for something that he believes.
But he and he does, but he doesn't always have
all the answers. And we've gone and we've gone down
these roads together, whether it's how we organized the offense,
or how we set up free agency, or how the
cap is going to affect us and this and specific
contracts or or or or why we have to play

(40:41):
this coverage in that situation, and it all kind of
and he wants to talk about that and hear all
of that, and and he loves talking football. He doesn't
want to come in and watch tape, you know, he
doesn't want to do that, but he wants to. He
wants to be able to have a conversation with his
head coach that he can understand and get and then
get his wheels turning because he'll come up with the
next good idea yea. And I just like it. I

(41:02):
like doing it. I like having the conversation. It's not
something I want to get through. I don't want to
hang up the phone. I want to keep having the
conversation with him about that stuff. And and and I
don't know, it's just it's just it's just a it's
a great blessing, you know, and it's I know it's
not gonna last forever, but I know one thing. We'll
be friends forever, you know, and it's it's a great thing.
At Ozzie, you want to talk about Ozzie. Yeah, so Ozzie,

(41:24):
Like it's it's like the same exact dynamic with Steve,
except with a completely different personality, completely different, right, I mean,
Ozzie is just is uh. He he wants to scrimmage
it like, he wants to talk it through, he wants
to understand it, you know, whatever it is. And uh,
and Ozzie's gonna lay back a little more, you know,
and he's gonna pick his spots a little differently, and
he's gonna take his time, you know. And sometimes sometimes

(41:46):
that can kind of be mad thing. It's like, let's
get to the point. But then when he when he
when he does get to the point, it's like he's
just he's drilled right to the heart of the matter.
And he'll say something again, brilliant, You'll be like, man,
that is exactly spot on about that sums up where
we're at. And what we've got to get accomplished here,
you know, in a way that you just you just
like to look on your face right now, you're like, yeah,
I get yeah, Yeah, I get it. I get it, Ozzie, Okay,

(42:09):
let's roll, you know. And I just think like we
had this unique ability or this kind of this unique
relationship that we have the ability to kind of to
come to an agreement on things, and and the two
things we'd never do, like like we don't have the
fault line of who's got what power, who's got what control,
It doesn't even matter to us. Like Ozzie's got control
of the draft and the free agency and the fifty
three man roster and all that, and you know what,

(42:31):
as a coach, I'm sure I'd love to have control
of all that stuff. You know, I'd love to be
the final decision maker and Ozzie had I have control
of the team and who plays and what schemes we
run and what we're doing and every part of the
guys that touched the players, you know, as far as
the development of the players. I'm sure there's a lot
of gms who would want to have control overall and
want to have to say on that and I've seen
that's where the that's where people, that's where the friction hits. Okay, well, Ozzie,

(42:52):
it's not like we we like stay in our own lanes.
It's like we drive in each other's lanes all the time. Interesting, Okay, Yeah,
we kind of said this is kind of how we
laughed about it. But we each have a Trump card contractually,
but we kind of agreed to never used the trump card.
We never throw a Trump card on the table. Never
one time we ever said no, I'm throwing the Trump
card down because I have the power to do that.

(43:14):
We don't like agree to disagree, like we kind of
made a pack. We're not going to agree to disagree.
We're going to agree to agree. We're going to get there. Yeah,
way harder, way harder, you know. But if we can
agree to agree, we're going to come to an agree.
But we're going to see it because we both are
you know, fundamentally, we respect one another. And I think
Ozzie's very humble. I mean, for a guy that's legendary,

(43:36):
and we'll be a legend. We'll have statues has statues
all over the country, you know, for he accomplishing Yeah,
he's a legendary, and he's a legend I would say
he's a legendary humble person at the same time. And
to me, that's the that's the hallmark of great leadership. Yeah,
you know, if anybody could get away with being arrogant,
it would be Newsome because of his track record. In fact,

(43:59):
if the real Hall of Fame allowed people to be
inducted twice, Newsom would seriously fit the bill. He was
already inducted after his playing career as a tight end,
but if he had never been voted in that time,
he'd definitely get voted in as a general manager. But
what's funny? While John thinks Newsom is humble, Bashatti said
the exact same thing about John, only Bashatti was more specific.

(44:23):
It's important that you understand that, I said, the balance
between humility and confidence. Okay, too much confidence, if it
gets out of balance, in my eyes, is arrogance. Too
much humility inspires lack of confidence in other people. That's

(44:48):
why John is a winner because he has always understood
the balance between humility and confidence. Doesn't matter how much
you have. Every competitor is filled with an overabundance of

(45:08):
emotions and character. Traits. It's keeping that balanced if you
lose a lot like you saw us lose last year.
Just a reminder, I interviewed Mashati in the middle of
last season, so he's talking about the twenty fifteen season
when the Ravens went five and eleven after Flacco went down.

(45:30):
If John upped his humility and dropped his confidence, he
would be a lousy leader. If we experienced the losing
that we experienced last year and John became arrogant, and
it would be a defense mechanism. He doesn't need a
defense mechanism because of that proper balance. That's how I

(45:56):
view anybody in any job they have is instinctively knowing
how to balance those two of your greatest character traits.
It's really enlightening listening to how John, Bischotti, Flacco, and

(46:16):
Newsom all work together, isn't it. And if you combine
the relationships between smart, successful people along with John's upbringing
with an incredible mother, father, brother, and sister, then you
can see why he's reached the pinnacle of this sport,
and you can see why he's already achieved greatness and
why he's probably destined for more greatness. Now, whether he'll

(46:39):
stay in Baltimore for twenty three years. I'll give the
last word to the man that discovered him, gave him
his first shot, and has the power to make that
a reality. I'll finish on this one. I'm actually interviewing
Peter King tomorrow. Last year he wrote an article that
said that he thinks that John could become the modern
day Chuck Noel. Is that realistic in today's football world?

(47:04):
And if it is, what would John need to do
to get there? You have to win. You have to
win consistently, There's no doubt about it. There's plenty of
stories about great coaches that lost early, Bill Belichick and
Mike Shashevsky. He got called and he thought he was
getting fired, and look what he built a duke. You

(47:27):
have to win, and you have to win more than
you lose, and you have to have people around you
that respect what you do, how you do it, how
you present yourself. And John's got that in spades. So
it gives him a cushion to losing, not an exemption,

(47:47):
but a cushion. We win and lose with John. So
you have to win, and you have to be a
good teammate. Because we've seen coaches lose their job after
going to the playoffs. To look it up in the NFL,

(48:11):
it means that the personalities didn't mesh. So it happens,
and it's no, and it's not an indictment on the coach.
It's an indictment on the relationship between the powers that be.
And I said at the year in press conference, I
liked John as much as I did nine years ago.
So we'll leave it at that. He's got fourteen more
years to be Chuck Noll, and we need to win

(48:33):
three more Super Bowls for him to be let Chuck Noll.
So