September 10, 2017 • 58 mins
In a family that hates comparisons, we explore the similarities and differences in the brothers' personalities and take a deeper and emotional look at the shadow that one walked in.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Last time on Man of the Crowd. What are your
impressions of Jim crazy.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Jim is hyper hyper competitive. He can never lose even
when he's won, so he's not When I.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Would talk to Jim and he was struggling with the
management there. Try to have a direct relationship, you know,
with Jed Yorke. I mean, that's your bet, your owner,
that's the guy, you know, do whatever you can, and
he did.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
He tried to do that.
Speaker 5 (00:25):
And there were times I didn't have a friend, as
you know. I sometimes I wear those out. Uh, sometimes
he was my only friend.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
He got mistreated really badly in one of those jobs,
really badly, and I know that.
Speaker 6 (00:40):
Yeah, I do think Jim is misunderstood sometimes.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
When Paul Brown invented game film, they said he was
cheating innovators always getting huge, and it's because they're far ahead.
So Jim's inventing things and he's more clever than lots
of the people he compeach with.
Speaker 7 (00:57):
Because people assume the worst I take.
Speaker 8 (00:59):
The agent of change is never really the most popular
person in any room. Also, people trying to intimidate you.
Best part of life to me is competing. But if
that offends somebody then then so be it.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
From the Baltimore Ravens. This is Man of the Crowd,
a multi episode podcast that pulls back the curtain on
Ravens figures personal lives this season the Horrorball Family. I'm
Sarah Ellison.
Speaker 9 (01:29):
People believe we're going to attack this day with an enthusiasm.
Speaker 10 (01:38):
I no, go bad car, because you're a fighter and
that's what you are going to be today.
Speaker 9 (01:45):
The law will horses twice.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I'm walking on shaky ground in this episode, and that's
because the Harbass don't like comparison. No, that's not strong enough.
The Harbus detest comparisons. All of us reporters who cover
the family, we are very careful in how we phrase
questions so as not to get a scolding lecture on
how comparisons leave one person feeling diminished. In fact, I
(02:17):
had never met or spoken to Mark Snyder from the
Detroit Free Press before interviewing him for this podcast, but
I instantly felt a kinship with him. It was kind
of comparing him, which you know, the Harbus hate comparisons,
but he was doing it.
Speaker 7 (02:32):
And it admitis you've heard that, ye for sure?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I mean it's the family is so sensitive to it
that Jackie called me out during one part of our
interview together and I didn't even know I was asking
a comparison question. Tell me, how would you describe first
John as a child?
Speaker 7 (02:54):
If you're going to.
Speaker 6 (02:55):
Get into comparisons between them, I'm really I'm not going
to go there because of if I say something one way,
then it's going to reflect.
Speaker 7 (03:06):
On the other on the other.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, believe me, I get it. I understand where the
Harbas are coming from for sure. Having said that, it
is super hard to avoid noting the similarities and differences
between two brothers who made Super Bowl history, and I'm
doing a nine episode podcast on them. Plus I have,
on occasion, the very seldom occasion, heard the Harba's praise
(03:31):
reporters for good comparisons. Tim Kawakami from the San Jose
Mercury News, He's earned that distinct honor before once.
Speaker 8 (03:40):
When you got there, Yes, it does so, it's a
very fray and comparison.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Let's repeat that, you know, just for the record.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yes, it does so. It's a very prair in comparison.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
See look at that Jim approved a comparison. Now the
specific comparison that Kawakami made is irrelevant. The relevant point
is that it can be done. So the standard has
been set and my goal is to reach or surpass it.
My challenge is to make fair and accurate comparisons between
John and Jim, and hopefully I don't get any stern
(04:15):
emails or phone calls from the Harbaughs. Well, the irony
of this whole thing is that it was my interview
with Jackie that provided the foundation of this entire episode
of comparisons and shadows. Jackie and I watched highlights together
of Super Bowl forty seven so she could give me
her reaction and perspective on the game. And she had
never watched this clip before, by the way, so this
(04:36):
is her raw reaction.
Speaker 9 (04:41):
Tue your job.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
It was a hard game for them to watch, and
when it was all said and done, they felt happy
and they felt sad at the same time. They made
this all happen.
Speaker 7 (04:57):
No, is that great?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, it's like you said, he deserved that moment to
celebrate with him.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
Yeah, he did.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
It brings tears to my eyes thinking about it, because
it's huge, you know, it's they both traveled a different path,
and John traveled a long path. You might say in
Jim's shadow in a sense, I never resented a moment
(05:37):
of it, never resented a moment of it. But as
I said before, always in the back of his mind was,
you know, if it happens for me, I have a plan,
and he's been working on that plan. I'm proud of
him for that, and I'm proud of Jim for.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
The path they Out of the dozens of interviews I've
conducted over the last year, this SoundBite from Jackie tugs
at my heart strings the most. And maybe it's just
because I'm a mom with competitive children too, But I
can put myself in her shoes. All any parent ever
wants is to be proud of their children and help
make them happy. The Super Bowl was obviously a monumental
(06:22):
moment for both John and Jim, and she was equally
proud of both. But they each took his own path
to get there, and neither path was better or worse
than the other, just different, And as Jackie emotionally noted,
John's path was long and in the giant shadow that
Jim cast. Now you may be asking yourself, Wait, Jim
(06:44):
is casting the giant shadow, isn't he the younger brother yeah,
he is. It's just by fifteen months, which doesn't amount
to much now that they're fifty four and fifty three
years old, but fifteen months usually makes a big difference
when you're nine to ten, or even as teenagers. But
despite being the younger brother, Jim was the one who
got the most attention in ann Arbor, Michigan, where the
(07:07):
two boys spent most of their signature years of their
young lives. Here's the best way I can sum up
the shadow that John lived in, or should I say,
is still living in.
Speaker 11 (07:18):
There's you know, who's going to win? Who do you
want to win? You know I had a partial for
John because he graduated with me, so I figured Jim
would make it back the next year or something like that.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
So that was von Belange. He was an ann Arber
Junior Packers and Pioneer High School teammate from when the
boys were young. He was basically saying that he was
rooting for John to win because he thought that Jim
would have another shot at the Super Bowl in another year,
meaning there wasn't enough faith in John to return. And
Belange wasn't the only one who expressed that sentiment either. Okay,
(07:52):
we need to back up here. What's happened over the
years with these two brothers that makes people from back
home believe in Jim's ability more than John's. Well, you
can trace it all the way back to when little
Johnny and Jimmy first started to fall in love with
football as young boys. And while everyone assumes it was
jack the forty year plus football coach, who got them
(08:13):
into the sport, the family actually credits Jackie for introducing them.
But she didn't make the introductions because she envisioned them
becoming NFL players or coaches. She just wanted them to
know what their father did for a living.
Speaker 12 (08:25):
Everyone on the outside knows what these two have accomplished
in the coaching realm of football. When did you, as
a father, know that the two men seating next to
you would be great coaches?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
This is the Harbaugh family at a Michigan coaches clinic
in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 13 (08:40):
First of all, Jackie, please stand up, Please stand up.
Speaker 9 (08:43):
Be recognizing Jackie.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Harbor Inn.
Speaker 13 (08:50):
And the reason I recognize her, I just tell a story.
It's been told before, but I was in a coaching
class at Bowling Green State University in nineteen fifty eight
and Deyt Perry, the beloved great Deuyt Perry, a Hall
of Fame coach. The stadium down there at Bowling Greens
named after him.
Speaker 9 (09:10):
He was teaching the class. He was there.
Speaker 13 (09:13):
Every single day and there were about thirty football coaches
and they're taking the class.
Speaker 9 (09:18):
And I was one of them.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And you see football players, I mean thirty football player
wanted to get a grade.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
They were looking for the.
Speaker 9 (09:24):
Smart a for athlete, I think is the way he greed.
Speaker 13 (09:28):
But anyway, he taught the class and the first day
he went, he looked out just like I'm looking out
here at this crowd.
Speaker 9 (09:34):
You all want to be football coaches, don't you?
Speaker 13 (09:36):
And all thirty of us waved, waved our head. Yes,
that's what we want to do. We want to be
football coaches. I'm going to tell you how.
Speaker 9 (09:42):
To do it. I'm going to tell you how you
can become a football coach. Three things. I'm start with
number three.
Speaker 13 (09:51):
Number one, you better have a love and a passion
for this game.
Speaker 14 (09:56):
Every day you wake up.
Speaker 13 (09:57):
You'Re excited to get to that office to meet that
first challenge. And there will be a challenge that particular day,
and you better be ready to meet it.
Speaker 9 (10:05):
The love and passion for the game. Number two, you
better be smarter than anyone you coach against, And Deutsch said,
the reason I say that is I know most of
you in this room, and you aren't very smart.
Speaker 13 (10:18):
There's going to be a lot of guys out there
smarter than what you are, so you better outwork them.
Speaker 9 (10:24):
You better work harder than anyone you play against.
Speaker 13 (10:27):
And number one, and you can just imagine, just like
if you've not heard this story, you're on the.
Speaker 9 (10:32):
End of your seat, aren't you. What is number one?
Number one was Mary.
Speaker 13 (10:40):
Wisely because if you don't have a good wife, if
you don't.
Speaker 12 (10:46):
Have a wife and understand, I applaud the story. I
love the story. But I see the apple doesn't fall
far from the tree. You're a true coach. He didn't
answer the question this is like a press conference.
Speaker 9 (11:00):
Uh. I know I'm talking too much, but just no,
I love it. Just two things. What was the question?
What was the.
Speaker 12 (11:10):
Original question when you first saw the sign of a
great coach in both of your sons.
Speaker 9 (11:15):
Maybe he didn't.
Speaker 15 (11:16):
Is that's awesome?
Speaker 7 (11:17):
I think it's where John said.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
He didn't say a big read them out there then.
Speaker 9 (11:22):
But one thing, Jackie said, one time we were doing
that's what the stop talk. We were.
Speaker 13 (11:31):
We were doing an interview for the Super Bowl, and
they came into our home and the camera set up
and Jackie and I are talking, and they asked Jackie
a question, that same question, when did you know that
John and Jim and and Joni marrying a basketball coach?
Speaker 9 (11:44):
When did you know that they were.
Speaker 13 (11:46):
Destined for for athletics and and for and for coaching.
Speaker 9 (11:50):
And she made a.
Speaker 13 (11:51):
Statement that I had never heard in our entire married life.
And the statement went something like this.
Speaker 9 (11:56):
The thing I.
Speaker 13 (11:57):
Chose to do very early in their lives and Joni's life,
I wanted them to know what their father did.
Speaker 9 (12:06):
I wanted them to know when he left at six o'clock.
Speaker 13 (12:09):
In the morning before the sun came up, where he
was going, and what he was doing. And I wanted
when he came home at ten thirty at night or
ten o'clock or whenever they hurt the door open in
the room and the door closed, And that was pretty
much at the end of that. I wanted to know
what they did. So she brought our youngsters to practice.
Speaker 9 (12:31):
When they were in strollers, she would bring.
Speaker 13 (12:34):
Them out and put them on the sideline and they
would watch players would come.
Speaker 7 (12:38):
Over and.
Speaker 13 (12:40):
Fool with them, you know, brother their heads and you
tough with the you know and all that stuff. And
they got to know the players. And then when they
got into high school, Bo allowed them to come to
practice along with Jerry and Gary's kids, and they hung
around the practice thing. But it was a process that
she introduced them to fletics. They evidently saw some things
(13:02):
that they liked about playing and coaching, and then.
Speaker 9 (13:06):
They pursued it. They did it.
Speaker 13 (13:08):
We were just chaperones, watching and enjoying the process. So
I would suggest for some of you young coaches that
have youngsters, they you can't be with them twenty four
hours a day, but there's not a reason that they
can't come and.
Speaker 9 (13:23):
Be with you.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
They all joked about Jack forgetting the original question, but
come on, he didn't really forget it. And I know
that because I've heard him give that exact answer to
that exact question on more than one occasion. After hearing
Jack's response to this question a few times, I picked
up on two important trends. First, he always always points
(13:45):
to Jackie when people ask about the success of their children. Second,
he never ever points to a single moment when he
knew the kids would become great coaches. Okay, for just
a couple of minutes, this is where I want to
take a small detour. Is still on the topic about
the brother's paths and the shadow cast by Jim, But
(14:06):
the very beginning of their paths started with mom. That's
true of most of us, right, Well, I would be
remiss if I wrote a nine episode podcast on John
Harbor his family and not talk more about Jackie. Jack
called her his hero, which may I say is just heartwarming.
(14:26):
She is most deserving of that honored title, and the
family clearly cherishes the work and sacrifices Jackie made while
the couple raise their three children. You know, lots of
people ask me how Jack and Jackie met. What's their
whole backstory? Well, they've been together for fifty nine years,
fifty five of them married after meeting in a freshman
(14:48):
biology class at Bowling Green State University.
Speaker 16 (14:52):
We're in a biology class or alphabetized abc C. I'm
looking down into the C section. I see so pd C,
I P I TI most gorgeous individual I'd ever seen
in my life.
Speaker 7 (15:09):
Tell me about your first date.
Speaker 16 (15:10):
First date, we had no money, so we just walked
around campus and for about an hour just talking.
Speaker 7 (15:17):
That kind of became a routine date for us.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Now tell me when you first met Jack.
Speaker 7 (15:22):
Was it love at first sight for you? I don't know,
it wasn't for me.
Speaker 6 (15:28):
There's really no I don't think. So we were just
we became friends. My mind wasn't focused on getting into
any you know, serious relationships. I had to finish college
and my plan was not to get married till I
(15:49):
was twenty eight years old or anything like that, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
So they did it off and on for four years
throughout college, and they ultimately got engaged to be married.
But first after graduate, Jack was drafted into the NFL
in nineteen sixty one, and meanwhile Jackie was accepted into
President John F. Kennedy's newly developed Peace Corps. She was
scheduled to head to Penn State to be trained for
her work for underdeveloped areas in the Philippines. They thought
(16:15):
the timing was perfect. He'd play football for four or
five years, and she'd work in the Philippines, and then
they'd get married afterwards. But something unexpected happened. Hey, now
I noticed that you played for one year for the
New York Titans.
Speaker 16 (16:30):
No, Now, what happens if you if you're WHIPI Kittie
or whatever?
Speaker 7 (16:35):
What is that whip a pity? Wikipedia? Wikipedia? So it's wrong?
If it's wrong, am I am I legally responsible for that?
Speaker 10 (16:43):
No?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
But I can ride into Wikipedia for you if you
want me to.
Speaker 7 (16:46):
You never played, I did.
Speaker 13 (16:47):
I.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
I was with Buffalo Bills. Oh it's the Buffalo Bills
for three days a year. What happened in those three days?
I got cut.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
With his NFL career being cut so short, Jack went
straight back to Jackie.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
So he came home and I think, I said, what
are you doing here? And he said, well, I didn't
make it, so you know, we can make plans and everything.
I said, no, I'm going. I'm going to Peace Corps training.
And I went to the training and I was accepted.
(17:27):
But then there was a guy who was there in
the training and I guess I had my engagement right now,
and he said, are you engaged? I said yes, He
said what are you doing here? And I you know,
I because I was all into that focused, yeah, into
(17:50):
doing this. I thought it was important. I thought it
was a great idea, and I guess I thought about it,
you know, and then I chose the other path and
came home. But one thing, one lesson I learned from
that was from a Filipino because they had sent some
(18:12):
people over to train, and he said that Filipinos saying
is you gave me wings to fly, and then you
took away the sky. So I tried to always remember
that when the kids were growing up, right, you know,
(18:32):
because you have to give them the opportunity to fly, right,
but don't ever take that opportunity away from them. And
I guess that was always stuck in the back of
my mind the whole time.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
The Hardbode children are forever grateful that their mom chose
the path of family and mother. As Jack said, she
is the rock of the family as they moved seventeen times.
Back in the nineteen sixties, you had to get a
master's degree to even coach, and once you got that,
you usually got your first job coaching in high school,
(19:12):
and then you worked your way up. That's exactly what
the Harbaughs did during Jack's forty three year career.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
We were just so busy raising a family right that
it was a day to day situation. You had to
do what you had to do every day. You didn't
make a whole lot of money. So it was all
those years when they were babies and toddlers, it was
(19:38):
moving all the time, right, and nobody paid for your moves? Yeah,
neither no, And we pack everything up ourselves. I mean
we didn't have a lot of stuff, right.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
So did you ever were there any moves where you
were like, oh, I don't want to do this again?
Speaker 7 (19:55):
Or were you just like, okay, new opportunity, let's go. No.
Speaker 6 (19:59):
I mean he always took the job, so you never
asked how much money are you making or you know,
what's a situation?
Speaker 7 (20:10):
Like you just got there and you did what you
had to do.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Jackie sounds kind of amazing, doesn't she so selfless and
all in for the family. Well, that brings us back
to John and Jim and when she first introduced them
to football by taking them to Jack's work.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
I think because I took them to practice, and sometimes
I think because they watched what he did that stuck subconsciously,
I think with them all these years. No, I mean
(20:51):
I didn't have influence as far as what they know
about football. So I always believed that your kids should
know what their father does. And I don't really ever
think anybody thought at that time that We're going to
be coaches or I'm ever going to get a scholarship
(21:16):
to play in college. We as parents didn't think that way, right,
you know, maybe just wanted them to have a good experience.
Good experience you know have. Oh you're capable of doing this,
that's great, you enjoy it?
Speaker 7 (21:29):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Okay, So the goal wasn't to get the kids into
sports and football. Jackie and Jackie weren't plotting the kids'
football careers. The goal was about family, building a strong, productive,
happy family, and with dad leaving before sunrise and getting
home after sunset, Mom was determined to bring the kids
(21:51):
into dad's world and let them see why he was
absent from home.
Speaker 9 (21:55):
Now.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Of course, a natural side effect to Jackie's desire to
provide that strong fatherly presence was the planning of a
small football seed that ultimately but unintentionally, blossomed into the
historic coaching tree we see today. That seed underwent an
especially healthy growth spurt when it was nourished by the
Michigan Wolverine's football program and the ann Arbor Junior Packers. Okay,
(22:20):
so you remember when jack said he never specifically saw
a single moment that he knew his kids would be great. Well,
that's because he wasn't looking. But others were friends, coaches, teammates,
they were all watching. That's just what happened because they
were the sons of a Michigan football coach. But here's
what they started to notice right off the bat. First
(22:41):
is pioneer high school coach Chuck Ritter.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
It doesn't surprise me that both of ended up as
outstanding coaches. When you get them together, they mix very nicely.
But if you just see one to time, you say, oh,
Jim's the one that's in your face, and John's a
quiet one.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Of course, we now know John isn't so quiet, but
that's how Rider remembers him in high school. And when
we press for more memories of John as a high schooler,
Ritter said, I.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Don'T remember because he was a good player, but he
was not allowed person.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
But he could remember Jim.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
When people ask me about Jim, I tell him three things.
He's smart, he's hard working, and he hates to lose.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Blone the boys former teammate has more vivid memories.
Speaker 11 (23:34):
I'll tell you what. Growing up with those two guys, Jim,
you always knew he was going to be a great
athlete because he had he had such a skill set.
He just as he had that that a lot of
kids have at that age. He just excelled above other people.
John worked really hard, and you always knew John was
going to be a coach. John had he studied that
(23:57):
game and at a high school level. That was especially
in the seventy nine seventy eight we were in there
doing just playing football. John was a different level.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
John played defensive back in high school and he sometimes
pokes fun at himself by saying he was an undersized
football player. Well, maybe he didn't have the god given athleticism,
but what stuck out in teammates' minds, like Belanges, is
how tough he was, just like he still is today.
Speaker 11 (24:25):
Well, John would come up hard and he had a
neck collar i think at one point because he had
a stinger in his neck or something, and he would
still go and stick his head in there and really
rack it. And that day you could football was important
to him more than other people on the team. You
could always tell.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
As a senior. In nineteen seventy nine, John injured his
knee and missed the first seven games of his final
high school season. Bolange recalls how important it was for
John to rehab and make it back to the field.
His hard work did not go unnoticed by coaches and teammates.
By the time he returned, Jim had gone from being
(25:07):
the JV backup, to the JV starter, to the varsity backup,
and then the varsity starter, all while he was just
a sophomore. His coaches called him the real deal. Guess
who was benched in favor of him, John Minnick. You
know the son of John and Jim's first football coach
(25:27):
for the junior Packers, the one who hates two percent milk. Yeah,
him and his son, the three Minnick sons, John, Jeff,
and Jim and the Harba Boys. John and Jim, I
know lots of j names well. They were close childhood
friends during those years in Ann Arbor. And in this
NFL Network feature, John Minnick recalls the exact game and
(25:49):
the exact time in which coaches approached him and told
him that Jim would take his place as the starting quarterback.
Speaker 17 (25:57):
I can remember the game vividly. It was a fifth
game of our junior year. I don't remember the score,
but we were losing, and the coach came up to
me at halftime and said, hey, Jim Harbaugh was going
to go in quarterback, just like that. I remember Jim
was gracious, humble, poised, but yet very confident when he
(26:19):
came in and became the starting quarterback as a sophomore.
Was I disappointed?
Speaker 15 (26:24):
Sure?
Speaker 17 (26:24):
But how do you react to your best friend and
you know it's a special athlete.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
And you knew that.
Speaker 15 (26:30):
I knew it long before even Pioneer.
Speaker 17 (26:32):
Of course I knew that.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
With Jim at quarterback and John just returning from injury,
the brothers got to play two games of varsity football together.
John was usually the leader on defense, but he was
also used on offense when times called for it.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Well, it's amazing to be back here. It's the first
time I've been back here since high school, since nineteen eighty,
which is pretty incredible. And it looks pretty much the
same to me. I mean, this is this wing down here.
This might have been the science wing down here. I
didn't really spend much.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Time down here.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
John gave us a to the were of Pioneer High
School when he was inducted into their Hall of Fame.
In twenty sixteen, and while there he recalled some memorable
plays he had on the field, including a very special
moment with his brother that had never happened before or since.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
The last game was against Anna ober here on our
arch rival, who we never lost to the whole time
I was here, even in twenty two years up until
that point, and we were in a tight game, and
my brother had brought up, had been brought up to
be the quarterback during the time that I was gone,
so he was the starting quarterback. And I came back,
was playing wing back in the wing tea and he
had me in a deep pass up the sideline, as
(27:34):
I remember it, deathly juke, somebody made a miss, stepped
over somebody else, didn't quite score. But then the loud
speaker saying Harbor to Harrball for the first time, So
that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Pioneer finished that season with a four and five record,
only the team's second losing record in twelve seasons. And
who would have thought with the Harrballs on the team.
But an old ann Arbor newspaper clipping, which we've posted
on the Man of the Crowd micro site if you
want to take a look at Baltimore Ravens dot Com. Well,
it cited a run on injuries, including to John, as
(28:07):
the reason for their down year. There's another clipping that
told of Jim's assent to starting quarterback. Anyway, we already
know what happened after that season, right Jack took the
defensive coordinator job at Stanford. So Jim finished his high
school career in California, and John graduated and went on
to play football at the University of Miami in Ohio.
(28:28):
He didn't go to Michigan. When the brothers returned for
their Hall of Fame inductions at Pioneer High there was
this fun Q and A with Michigan Radio's Ira Wintraub,
and it got lots of laughs, but it once again
highlighted John as the older, quiet, hard working brother and
Jim is the younger, confident, superior athlete. It was nearly
(28:48):
forty years later and their reputations were still intact.
Speaker 9 (28:52):
Unlike your brother, you obviously didn't go to Michigan. You
went to Miami, Ohio. Why'd you choose Miami, Ohio?
Speaker 3 (28:57):
They wanted me, But Miami's a great school.
Speaker 12 (29:02):
A couple of Miami grand sitting out here right now.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
There you go, and uh, no, great great school Miami.
Anybody watch a great academic you know, experience, great campus
down there Miami.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
Yeah, we're very proud of that.
Speaker 9 (29:12):
What's your point, IRA's sure.
Speaker 7 (29:14):
Where you're going with this?
Speaker 9 (29:14):
You know, I was just going to Michigan. I'm sorry.
Speaker 7 (29:16):
I wanted to go to Michigan.
Speaker 9 (29:19):
I think it was a great decision. Coaches, Look where
you are the man. I was just curious. It is
a little warmrogated here.
Speaker 13 (29:27):
So you're the big brother, come on, admitute used to
be Jim up a little bit.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Well, I mean rare I just after after it. You
always had to look over your shoulder with Jim. I mean,
Jim was always coming. We had a few scuffles, a
few tussles, but I came out on the probably the
lower end of those most of the time. But I
gotta be honest.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
So it was a like doing at some point in
time when he's surpassed you as an athlete, you're the
big brother, but at some point he's the pasted you.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Well, I was fortunate that it happened very early, Ira,
you know, so I got I think a lot of
practice at it.
Speaker 18 (29:54):
Now.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
We were we used to we used to uh, we
played all the time, and Jim was Jim was such
a good athlete. Coach Minnick, you know this, he was.
He was with the older guys all the time, right,
He played with Jeff and John.
Speaker 17 (30:06):
Jim.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Jim was the same way Jim Minick sitting over there.
We were five of us were running around playing games
and being on teams and everything, and Jim was just
just good enough to be with our guys.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
John always looking over his shoulder didn't end after their
prep star days. John recalls the last physical fight he
and Jim had when they were adults in their mid twenties,
and as a quick side note, while John tells the story,
he hits his mic a few times so they'll explain
some of the audio issues you'll hear.
Speaker 9 (30:31):
Here's the Baltimore Ravens. John Harbaugh, thanks me very much.
Set out nail down whatever.
Speaker 10 (30:39):
So I got this hat that says four fights. That
was appropriate because we pretty much fought our whole life.
So in the last fight that Hey and I had,
after many years of fighting, and HiT's ho work like
I was older slightly, so I'd grow get a little
bit bigger. Occasionally win a fight against my brother that
he would catch up to me because he's a big,
strong guy, you know, and he'd kick my ass for
(30:59):
a little while, and then I'd grow a little bit
and be able to get him.
Speaker 9 (31:02):
In the headlock.
Speaker 10 (31:03):
He denies, and he says I never beat him in
a fight. That's not true. I won a couple fights,
but I went to college whatever. He went to Michigan.
He gets drafted in the first round. I'm coaching football
and he's doing real well with the Bears and decides
to take us on a trip to Amelia Island.
Speaker 7 (31:20):
You know where.
Speaker 10 (31:20):
That's at Amelia Island. It's in Florida. Okay, it's nice. Okay,
it's a resort. It's a beach. He's got money now,
and we're going to the beach. Okay, we're gonna have
a good time. We get out there and swim around
the water, you know, and kind of get next to
each other. We start wrestling around. Next thing, you know,
we starts splashing around. It gets a little rougher, gets
a little tougher.
Speaker 7 (31:37):
Next thing, you know, he.
Speaker 10 (31:38):
Grabs me up in the air and slid into the
water waves rushing over top of us underwater. I'm kicking
he's got me like all Kurt tied up. I'm thinking,
all right, we'll go. Let me up here a minute.
Dunks me, picks me up, dunks me again, holds me
under the water.
Speaker 7 (31:56):
Now I'm like, okay, let me up. I'm still under water.
Let me up.
Speaker 10 (32:02):
Woo woom woom, everyone's coming out.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
You know.
Speaker 10 (32:05):
It goes through my mind like he snapped or all
those years, all those fights, all that and being the
little brother having to hear everybody's older brother, being all that,
he's gonna this is how it's gonna end. He's gonna
take me down. Right now, Finally he lets me out.
(32:26):
You know, I look at it. You look to you
after the game and you walk across the field and
you shake your opponent's hand after you win the game
and kick his ass. Right, the look you have in
your eye, right, that's the lucky gamy kind like kind
of like is that subtile it? You know, and that's
where it's stood all those years. We haven't thought said,
so that's what you're dealing with with your head, coach. Okay,
(32:48):
just so you know, you got a fighter, all right,
and that's why you're here at Michigan because you are fighters,
And that's what you are going to be today, tomorrow,
and when you line up next year, you are going
to fight.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
Is that the look he gave me after the Super Bowl?
Speaker 18 (33:03):
Was that to the air?
Speaker 17 (33:04):
Hey?
Speaker 10 (33:05):
Hey, right, well least six ter the super Bowl case,
so right to the super Bowl, here's what he does.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Sorry, but I can't give away that Super Bowl handshake
story just yet. I'm saving that for next episode. But
I can tell you it's kind of amazing. Anyway, After
high school, the shadow that Jim cast only seemed to
get bigger because John got a partial scholarship from Miami
of Ohio to play defensive back, but rarely saw the field.
(33:31):
He graduated with a degree in political science and briefly
considered going to law school, but instead he took a
graduate assistant job on his dad's staff at Western Michigan University,
and as far as coaching staffs go, it's the lowest
rung on the ladder. He very slowly worked his way
up the rings for nearly the next quarter century as
(33:52):
a college and NFL assistant, and even in those twenty
five years, he never got to the level of offensive
or defensive court. Instead, he was the Philadelphia Eagles special
teams coordinator for nine years that spanned over two head
coaches in Ray Rhoads and Andy Reid. Meanwhile, Jim went
on to a full ride scholarship at the more nationally
(34:14):
prominent football program at Michigan. He became an All American
and a Heisman Trophy finalist, and he was good enough
to be selected in the first round of the nineteen
eighty seven draft by the Chicago Bears and the legendary
Mike Ditka. He enjoyed a long fourteen year career in
the NFL, was voted into the Pro Bowl, and led
(34:35):
the Indianapolis Colts to the AFC Championship Game and earned
the title Captain Comeback. And even though friends back in
ann Arbor dubbed Jim the athlete and John the coach,
Jim was the one who ascended the coaching ranks faster.
In fact, Jim got a head coaching job four years
before John did. When I was talking with Ravens owner
(34:55):
Steve Bushatti, I had called Jim's coaching career bumpy because
he had moved a around so much and because of
the way things ended in San Francisco. But while John's
coaching career may have been more under the radar, but
Shati said it was anything but smooth.
Speaker 15 (35:09):
Jim's world hasn't been bumpy. Jim's world is a series
of positive, successful steps, from a great college quarterback to
a Pro Bowl pro quarterback to a coach at school
(35:30):
after school where he never went backwards San Diego State, Stanford,
the Pros, back to Michigan. I don't see that as bumpy.
I see that as what you would expect of a
successful guy like Jim. They're not bumps, their steps steps.
(35:54):
It's all ascending for Jim. John's only probably trauma in
his life being stuck for an extended period of time,
and he stayed and stayed and stayed, and they were
regarded as one of the best special teams in the league.
It wasn't until the year before I hired John that
(36:15):
he and Andy devised a plan to get him to
move to defensive backs. Because special teams coaches didn't get
head coaching jobs, they didn't get defensive coordinator jobs to
even have that step up. So Andy respected John enough
in his capabilities to say, you may be looking at
(36:37):
a dead end here, and the only way we can
solve this is if we make you the dB coach.
So that was a step back for John, and that's
a really hard thing to do after nine years as
one of the top three special teams coaches in a league,
to realize that if he was ever going to move forward,
he probably had to take a step back to go forward.
To me, that didn't seem that might that by definitie,
(37:00):
that's not bumpy to you, but to me, that was
way more pressure in his mid forties to have to
go back and be a position coach just so that
he could possibly become a defensive coordinator down the road.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I didn't plan for this to happen, but during my
interview with Bushati, we got a little deeper into John
and Jim's personality and how he compares the two.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
What are your impressions of Jim Crazy?
Speaker 7 (37:27):
No, I love Jim, I really do.
Speaker 15 (37:29):
I think that Jim and I would have battled more
because I'm you know, it's so funny when people see
such differences, and yet it's not like their type A
and type B. John is pretty as much as type
A as it gets until you compare him to his brother.
But I kind of get to appreciate Jim more now
(37:51):
that he's out of the NFL. Yeah, you're building a legacy,
is yeah exactly. It's like, I don't like anybody that's
competing against me. It's not my nature to want to
like somebody that is trying to take something from me.
I wanted those wins against the forty nine ers as
much as John did, and I felt like John deserved them.
(38:12):
And that's being selfish, but I did. And I love
seeing Jim shaking up the college football world. And now
I can sit back and just laugh.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Why would you have battled more with Jim?
Speaker 15 (38:24):
Because I don't think Jim might have been as good
a listener as John, A little more stubborn in my position,
I want to be heard. You know, John's really good
at letting me vent to him. And it's interesting because
some people, whether it's not verbal, some people have a
(38:52):
hard time letting somebody vent to them that is not
as intelligent as them on the subject interesting, I find
that that's what makes John such a good partner, is
that he lets me bitch and then he explains he
(39:14):
either agrees with me or he disagrees with me, or
he educates me on why I may be looking at it.
The wrong way, and that's a really hard thing to
do in the middle of a season, when you're coming
off a loss, You're dealing with the pressures that he
deals with. And I'm not saying that we don't ever argue,
(39:36):
because we do, but nine times out of ten, he
doesn't have to agree with me to respect my opinion,
and that's a really hard thing to do.
Speaker 7 (39:47):
I think.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
I asked Ashati how John has been able to lead
his team through adversity when it arises. John had to
address the Rate Rice incident, the passing of defensive player
Trey Walker, and coach Clarence Brooks. He had a transition
from the Ray Lewis era, and then he had his
first losing season as a head coach when the Ravens
lost franchise quarterback Joe Flacco to a knee injury in
(40:08):
twenty fifteen. Right now, John's trying to rebound after missing
the playoffs in the last two seasons.
Speaker 15 (40:14):
He leads his team through adversity because he is a
thinker and a listener. I mean, I go back to
that listening. He is so in tune with other people.
The empathy that he's able to create in a team
setting allows him to foresee solutions to problems.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
I wanted to play that last clip because it reminded
me of when Jim Hackett, the Michigan interim AD, told
me that Jim has immense empathy. Both bosses individually told
me that the brothers have empathy. In fact, it's so
interesting to me how similar the brother's personality are and
yet aren't at the exact same time. Brashati called both
(41:05):
of them type A personalities. They're obviously both ultra competitive,
and both Hackett and general manager Ozzie Newsoen told me
that the brothers like to do what they call scrimmage
to work through and resolve conflicts and disagreements. I see
John and Jim a lot alike, but I think the
outside world sees Jim as the more brash, in your
(41:27):
face kind of person.
Speaker 14 (41:30):
Is John that way?
Speaker 7 (41:31):
Does he just hide it better?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Do you think they're similar or the same, Or is
Jim more intense than John?
Speaker 14 (41:39):
Well, I'd never describe anybody more intense than John.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
This is Ravens Senior Vice President of public Relations, Kevin Byrne.
Speaker 14 (41:48):
When John sees something that can reflect on his team
or have anything to do with his team, when he
sees something, he says something, Yeah, and his way is
it's best to get it out there rather than seethe
about it or get angry about it and then resent
the person who's causing the issue, whether it be me,
(42:09):
Ozzie or somebody else. So John attacks the problem all
the time. I think what John is better at than Jim,
and what Jim will be angry at me for saying
this is John is better at presenting a public face
about it. And Jim has fewer stop signs than John.
John has more stop signs, maybe has more stop signs
(42:30):
as the older brother. Maybe Jim gets more stop signs
as he goes forward. But right now, John delights in
what Jim's doing at Michigan and the things that he
says publicly. Sometimes he goes. He knows exactly what he's doing.
He's having a little fun. They just don't know he's
having a little fun.
Speaker 7 (42:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Yeah, And I bet if Jim wanted to, he'd be
just as capable to put on that.
Speaker 14 (42:56):
I'm sure he is, because you know, they're both highly,
highly individuals. But I think you know, John's just I
don't want to use the more term more polished, because
Jim would really resent that. I just think there are
times when John thinks, you know, this is time for
a stop sign. I don't have to share this, I
don't have to do this publicly, and whereas Jim puts
(43:18):
it out there and tells people to deal with it.
Speaker 7 (43:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah, that's probably why one has a Twitter account and
the other does it.
Speaker 7 (43:25):
Jim definitely has fun with that.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Not only does Jim have a Twitter account, but he
has one million, nine and seventy thousand followers. Okay, to
put that into perspective, the entire University of Michigan, their
Twitter account has one point eight million fewer followers. And
as we know, Jim has a lot of fun and
(43:47):
creates a lot of headlines with his tweets, although John
sometimes makes fun of him for it.
Speaker 12 (43:53):
Jim, how about when you were when you were brought
back to Michigan, when you when you took the job
here last year, the questions still get asked about you personally,
You personally, and all you wanted to do was talk
about the kids, the fellas, the kids, and the team.
When coaches out here want to make the jump and
they want to keep taking that step and that next step,
how do you deflect attention out there on themselves and
not let the drive of the next step for them.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
Hey, Jim's doing a great job of that too, right,
I mean, you know he's deflected that. I never read
his name in the paper, tweet stuff in it.
Speaker 12 (44:25):
That's not my fault, that's him.
Speaker 8 (44:28):
I want to be good on Twitter, you know, if
you're going to do we'll be good at it.
Speaker 9 (44:33):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Well, while they've taken different paths, it led them to
exactly where John believes they were supposed to go. For example,
remember when John was asked why he went to Miami
of Ohio instead of Michigan. I'm sure if Michigan came knocking,
John would have gone there. But by going to Miami
and winning that Super Bowl, John received the unbelievable honor
(44:56):
of being immortalized with a statue in Miami, Ohio's famed
Cradle of Coaches. I am telling you, in the coaching world,
it doesn't get much better than that. So now a
Bron's life size statue of John sits in the plaza,
joining other statues of legendary coaches including Paul Brown, Wilbert Weeb,
(45:19):
You Bank, Eric Parsigian, and guess who else yep, Bo Schambeckler,
John and Jim Bull spoke at the induction ceremony.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
We traveled down paths for reasons. Okay, we don't know
why we end up where we end up for what reason.
I just think we end up there because God wants
us there. And they basically says, that's where I'm putting you, okay,
and he puts you with people that are going to
make the difference in your life. And you really don't
realize it at the time, and you got to go
through things that you don't understand at the time. And
for me, I wasn't a very good football player here,
but I was the best football player I could ever
(45:51):
be and Coach Reid, so you had to see Coach
Read and Kathy Reid.
Speaker 18 (45:55):
Coach Read, thank you for bringing me to Miami. I'm
sorry I wasn't a better player, Coach. I apologize. I
did my best. I swear God, I did my best,
but thank you. It's the greatest thing in my life.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
And when I was a player here, we had a
press guide cover that's on the stadium right now, and
it's got unbelievable people on that press guide. It's the
guys in the Cradle of Coaches. I remember seeing that,
look at it and saying, I play where those men played.
I'm walking the same path that those men walked. That
web you bank walked now I'm walking to stay at
(46:29):
the game age we view banks, you know, But I
guarantee and my dreams never went to the fact that
maybe there's a possibility that you know, you could ever
be a part of something like that. And you're part
of something like that because of the guys we had
a chance to play with, because the coaches we had
a chance to play for, but were The point I'm
trying to make is that you can't dream too big.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Here's Jim.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
I prided myself for a very long time on being
the tallest harball in the family of all the generations.
From a very young age, I wanted to be a
pro football player, and I thought that would have to
be over six foot tall, probably somewhere in the neighborhood
of six y two, to have a chance to make it.
So that all changed today where they unveiled the statue
(47:21):
no longer the tallest tarball. And I got to tell
you somewhere along the line, as a young kid, I
learned that if you drank milk, it was good for
your bones and you go big and strong. And between
the ages of six years old and thirty eight years old,
I drank more milk than any person that has ever
(47:42):
walked the face of this earth. It's now gone down
the drain, as you can tell, just so proud. Could
been so many proud moments that John has brought the
Harball family. But to see the statue of Bosham Beckler
and then John's statue as well, it's just I got goosebumps.
(48:05):
I got chills.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
For as competitive as the brothers are, they always have
each other's back and they delight in the other's success.
And John eventually got his coming out party right as
a head coach, a super Bowl champion, and with that
statue in the Cradle of Coaches. But I had wondered
how he felt before all of that, during all those
years when his brother was in the limelight while he
(48:28):
was quietly and diligently plugging along behind the scenes.
Speaker 16 (48:33):
The thing I think sticks out for me as a
parent is that they're fourteen months apart. They moved I
know twelve thirteen times they had to.
Speaker 7 (48:43):
Go into a New Town.
Speaker 16 (48:44):
They had each other to get through those experiences, and
then we'd move again. They had each other here we go,
competed in the same sports against each other on multiple occasions.
And John had the knee injury in high school the
kind of knocked him back a little bit. And then
Jim goes on to Michigan quarterback. Then he's drafted in
(49:08):
the first round by the Bears. He plays there for
seven years, and he goes to the Colt comes out,
quits playing. Ends it's a head coaching job before John did.
John still he's plugging along, and you know he's a
special teams coach with the Eagles at the time, but
he's not a head coach. Never, I'm telling I'm looking
at your right in the eye. Never did he ever
(49:30):
show any kind of feeling of remorse or resentment or
why not me? He always supported him, called him, wished him.
I mean, it's to me, it's it's the greatest quality
of all because.
Speaker 7 (49:42):
Most times, no jealousy. Why not me?
Speaker 11 (49:45):
Right?
Speaker 7 (49:45):
You know why am I not six three? You know
why am I not fourteen months apart?
Speaker 15 (49:50):
You know?
Speaker 7 (49:51):
Why? Why not?
Speaker 16 (49:52):
Never Once did that ever come into any discussion that
we ever had when talking to John was if you
talk to Jim, it's everything, okay, you think I need
to get him a call? You know, when things didn't
go well for him, I was always looking after him
and caring about him, and the same with Jim.
Speaker 7 (50:08):
Towards John.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
I brought to John some of the things that his
parents said about him, including the one from his mom
that we heard at the beginning of this episode. John
and I listened to that clip together.
Speaker 19 (50:18):
It brings tums to my eyes thinking about it, because
it's huge, you know, it's they've both traveled a different path,
and John traveled a long.
Speaker 20 (50:34):
Path you might say Jim's shadow in a sense, and
never resented a moment of it, never resented a moment
of it.
Speaker 6 (50:48):
But as I said before, always in the back of
his mind was you know, if it happens for me,
I have a.
Speaker 7 (50:56):
Plan and working on that plant. How proud of him
to that.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
I'm a mom and so that's very easily gets to me.
Life is not a pie chart. And they wanted to
be one hundred percent happy for you, which you can
hear from her, how she had seen you go, you know,
in your own journey, and just so proud of you.
What does that mean to you to have a mom
who just gets it but gets you.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
Yeah, Well, as a mom, I think that, I mean
you would and now is it. I'm a dad, so
I understand it way more now than I ever did
when I was just a son.
Speaker 17 (51:34):
You know.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
It's you get the feeling parents have, and I look
at my own daughter and I'm just like, as much
as the greatest relationship is, she doesn't really understand how
much she loves us, but she doesn't understand how much
we love her, you know. And I probably never understood
how much my mom and dad loved me and us
until until we had Alison.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
She talked about she said how proud she was of
like you, never saying that you were in his shadow
or feeling like you were always had his back, you
were always there. Did you ever feel like you were
in his shadow?
Speaker 7 (52:09):
Or was that?
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Was that a coming out for you to win? That
was Did that play into it at all for you?
Speaker 3 (52:13):
You know, it's funny. It's a great question to ask,
and I think it's an assumption to think that, But
the honest to goodness truth is that that that really
played no part in it, which is really interesting. I mean, no,
I didn't want to lose, and I didn't want to
lose to my brother. I don't want to lose to anybody,
and I certainly didn't want to. You don't want to lose.
You don't want to lose your best friend. You don't
want to lose your brother in anything.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
That's just because it's competitive, right.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
That'S exactly right.
Speaker 8 (52:34):
It was.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
It's not from it like I have to prove yourself
or to you know, show that I'm something, you know,
compared to him. And all the way through, I was
always just completely proud of Ike. Can remember going to games,
little league games, and when we're when I'm twelve and
he's ten and a half and and just being like, man,
this dude is a complete stud.
Speaker 7 (52:52):
You know, this little kid, my little bro is a stud.
Speaker 9 (52:54):
He's got proud of him.
Speaker 7 (52:55):
I'm proud of He's going to kill it.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
John went on to say that he was also grateful
that Jim was so successful because it opened up doors
for him. He was able to meet coaches at the
Chicago Bears and Indianapolis Colts because Jim played for them.
But more than anything, John never felt sorry for himself. Instead,
he said that Jim motivated him to be better.
Speaker 7 (53:17):
Because of Jim.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
I mean, those were doors that were open because Jim
was incredible and.
Speaker 7 (53:22):
Everybody loved him, you know.
Speaker 3 (53:23):
So I mean, I mean I just rooted for him,
you know, and I knew, I knew that he was
going to be really really you know, I just was
proud of him. And I guess if I had one
overriding thought through the whole thing, it was basically the
motivation was I mean, besides always you know, being driven,
I'm just kind of.
Speaker 7 (53:39):
Like you're driven, We're driven.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
But my thing was I got to hold up my
end of the bargain. I mean, look how great he's doing.
I just need to hold up my end of the
bargain and do something here.
Speaker 10 (53:50):
You know.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
That was probably it all the way through. And so
I mean, it wasn't like the Super Bowl was the
culmination of that by any stretch. It was the fact
that we can both look at each other and say
we're bold here together. To me, that's like the metaphor
that to me is just like that you just could
not even fathom. I Mean, it says in the Bible
that God has dreams and plans for us that are
(54:12):
beyond our ability to even imagine or think about incredible things.
And that's the lesson that I've learned in life.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
I love that. How many people would sit and sulk
and complain about not getting the chances that Jim had.
John didn't. That wasn't his style. He may have been
an underdog, but he embraced that role and used it
to motivate himself.
Speaker 9 (54:35):
Well.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Jim didn't note at the time, but he played a
part in motivating John once again, right before he was
about to face one of his biggest rivals in coaching
nemesis in the New England Patriots and Bill Belichick. John
and the Ravens return to Gillette Stadium in Foxborough, Massachusetts,
on January twentieth, twenty thirteen, to play in the AFC
Championship Game. John was in the pregame looking up at
(54:59):
the boards with his rival by his side, and then
they saw something.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
I couldn't help but watch the game on the big screen,
you know, while our team's warming up, and it's just incredible,
and everybody's watching it. The fans, the players are watching
them while they're warming out. I watching with Bill Belichick,
right I'm watching with coach Belichick. We're watching, you know,
and and I'm rooting for a fan, I'm rooting for him.
It's that last drive and they get him stopped on
the five yard line, you know, ironically enough, and they
(55:26):
win the game, and they're going to the super Bowl,
and it's like, yeah, my brother's going to the super Bowl.
Speaker 7 (55:31):
And then it hits you. It's like, I need we
got to go to the super Bowl. I can't. He
can't go to the super Bowl. Before we go to
the super Bowl, we have to win this game.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
There it is Jim's shadow again, but instead of feeling
sorry for himself, we're feeling intimidated by the moment. It
motivated John just like it always did. He and the
Ravens went on to beat the Patriots twenty eight to thirteen,
despite being heavy underdogs. So now their brothers, who grew
grew up in the same room where the same pajamas,
(56:03):
had the same bed sheets, and played on the same
Junior Packers and Pioneer high school football teams, those brothers
would face off in the Super Bowl. I'm going to
take you through that emotionally charged Super Bowl week, but
this time through the eyes of the family. Next time
on man of the crowd.
Speaker 6 (56:23):
And it was unbelievable, just stunned. I kind of wish
it hadn't been both Ravens and forty nine ers.
Speaker 7 (56:32):
She looks so miserable.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
Do you think it's possible that she's the one that
took out the lights at halftime of the.
Speaker 16 (56:38):
Street is the first time I've ever seen any part
of that game on video. Really, I've never watched the game.
You've never gone back.
Speaker 7 (56:48):
I have no desire to ever see it.
Speaker 10 (56:50):
Hey, grasp my head stick, give me a hard, stiff
far what you say, don't?
Speaker 7 (56:54):
Just said so big odd? His lip was quivering. What
do you think last play? What'd you think was holding one?
Speaker 16 (57:02):
That a parent can only be as happy as their
unhappiest child.
Speaker 6 (57:06):
This is what this game is all about, Jim. This
is all about family. And in the end, what does it.
Speaker 7 (57:13):
Come down to?
Speaker 6 (57:14):
It comes down to your familyfe.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
Hey, man of the crowd listeners, Before you go, I
just wanted to say thank you for such a strong
showing of support for the podcast. We're very happy with
how many of you there are out there listening, and
we'd love to have even more people find us, So
please consider reating the podcast and writing a review. The
more subscribers and positive ratings Man of the Crowd gets,
(57:44):
the more others will be able to find it. Also,
don't forget to continually check back to our microsite at
Baltimore Ravens dot com backslash Man of the Crowd. It
has content that compliments what you're listening to here, including
biographies of key interviews I've conducted, photo galleries and more.
And as always, I want to hear from you after
(58:04):
each episode. If you have any comments or questions or whatever,
hit me up on Twitter. My handle is at sg Ellison.
I look forward to your feedback and would love to
interact with you. Okay, that's it. That's all I've got,
but I'll be back next week with episode eight. Life
is not a pie chart.
Last time on Man of the Crowd. What are your
impressions of Jim crazy.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Jim is hyper hyper competitive. He can never lose even
when he's won, so he's not When I.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Would talk to Jim and he was struggling with the
management there. Try to have a direct relationship, you know,
with Jed Yorke. I mean, that's your bet, your owner,
that's the guy, you know, do whatever you can, and
he did.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
He tried to do that.
Speaker 5 (00:25):
And there were times I didn't have a friend, as
you know. I sometimes I wear those out. Uh, sometimes
he was my only friend.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
He got mistreated really badly in one of those jobs,
really badly, and I know that.
Speaker 6 (00:40):
Yeah, I do think Jim is misunderstood sometimes.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
When Paul Brown invented game film, they said he was
cheating innovators always getting huge, and it's because they're far ahead.
So Jim's inventing things and he's more clever than lots
of the people he compeach with.
Speaker 7 (00:57):
Because people assume the worst I take.
Speaker 8 (00:59):
The agent of change is never really the most popular
person in any room. Also, people trying to intimidate you.
Best part of life to me is competing. But if
that offends somebody then then so be it.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
From the Baltimore Ravens. This is Man of the Crowd,
a multi episode podcast that pulls back the curtain on
Ravens figures personal lives this season the Horrorball Family. I'm
Sarah Ellison.
Speaker 9 (01:29):
People believe we're going to attack this day with an enthusiasm.
Speaker 10 (01:38):
I no, go bad car, because you're a fighter and
that's what you are going to be today.
Speaker 9 (01:45):
The law will horses twice.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I'm walking on shaky ground in this episode, and that's
because the Harbass don't like comparison. No, that's not strong enough.
The Harbus detest comparisons. All of us reporters who cover
the family, we are very careful in how we phrase
questions so as not to get a scolding lecture on
how comparisons leave one person feeling diminished. In fact, I
(02:17):
had never met or spoken to Mark Snyder from the
Detroit Free Press before interviewing him for this podcast, but
I instantly felt a kinship with him. It was kind
of comparing him, which you know, the Harbus hate comparisons,
but he was doing it.
Speaker 7 (02:32):
And it admitis you've heard that, ye for sure?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I mean it's the family is so sensitive to it
that Jackie called me out during one part of our
interview together and I didn't even know I was asking
a comparison question. Tell me, how would you describe first
John as a child?
Speaker 7 (02:54):
If you're going to.
Speaker 6 (02:55):
Get into comparisons between them, I'm really I'm not going
to go there because of if I say something one way,
then it's going to reflect.
Speaker 7 (03:06):
On the other on the other.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, believe me, I get it. I understand where the
Harbas are coming from for sure. Having said that, it
is super hard to avoid noting the similarities and differences
between two brothers who made Super Bowl history, and I'm
doing a nine episode podcast on them. Plus I have,
on occasion, the very seldom occasion, heard the Harba's praise
(03:31):
reporters for good comparisons. Tim Kawakami from the San Jose
Mercury News, He's earned that distinct honor before once.
Speaker 8 (03:40):
When you got there, Yes, it does so, it's a
very fray and comparison.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Let's repeat that, you know, just for the record.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yes, it does so. It's a very prair in comparison.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
See look at that Jim approved a comparison. Now the
specific comparison that Kawakami made is irrelevant. The relevant point
is that it can be done. So the standard has
been set and my goal is to reach or surpass it.
My challenge is to make fair and accurate comparisons between
John and Jim, and hopefully I don't get any stern
(04:15):
emails or phone calls from the Harbaughs. Well, the irony
of this whole thing is that it was my interview
with Jackie that provided the foundation of this entire episode
of comparisons and shadows. Jackie and I watched highlights together
of Super Bowl forty seven so she could give me
her reaction and perspective on the game. And she had
never watched this clip before, by the way, so this
(04:36):
is her raw reaction.
Speaker 9 (04:41):
Tue your job.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
It was a hard game for them to watch, and
when it was all said and done, they felt happy
and they felt sad at the same time. They made
this all happen.
Speaker 7 (04:57):
No, is that great?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yeah, it's like you said, he deserved that moment to
celebrate with him.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
Yeah, he did.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
It brings tears to my eyes thinking about it, because
it's huge, you know, it's they both traveled a different path,
and John traveled a long path. You might say in
Jim's shadow in a sense, I never resented a moment
(05:37):
of it, never resented a moment of it. But as
I said before, always in the back of his mind was,
you know, if it happens for me, I have a plan,
and he's been working on that plan. I'm proud of
him for that, and I'm proud of Jim for.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
The path they Out of the dozens of interviews I've
conducted over the last year, this SoundBite from Jackie tugs
at my heart strings the most. And maybe it's just
because I'm a mom with competitive children too, But I
can put myself in her shoes. All any parent ever
wants is to be proud of their children and help
make them happy. The Super Bowl was obviously a monumental
(06:22):
moment for both John and Jim, and she was equally
proud of both. But they each took his own path
to get there, and neither path was better or worse
than the other, just different, And as Jackie emotionally noted,
John's path was long and in the giant shadow that
Jim cast. Now you may be asking yourself, Wait, Jim
(06:44):
is casting the giant shadow, isn't he the younger brother yeah,
he is. It's just by fifteen months, which doesn't amount
to much now that they're fifty four and fifty three
years old, but fifteen months usually makes a big difference
when you're nine to ten, or even as teenagers. But
despite being the younger brother, Jim was the one who
got the most attention in ann Arbor, Michigan, where the
(07:07):
two boys spent most of their signature years of their
young lives. Here's the best way I can sum up
the shadow that John lived in, or should I say,
is still living in.
Speaker 11 (07:18):
There's you know, who's going to win? Who do you
want to win? You know I had a partial for
John because he graduated with me, so I figured Jim
would make it back the next year or something like that.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
So that was von Belange. He was an ann Arber
Junior Packers and Pioneer High School teammate from when the
boys were young. He was basically saying that he was
rooting for John to win because he thought that Jim
would have another shot at the Super Bowl in another year,
meaning there wasn't enough faith in John to return. And
Belange wasn't the only one who expressed that sentiment either. Okay,
(07:52):
we need to back up here. What's happened over the
years with these two brothers that makes people from back
home believe in Jim's ability more than John's. Well, you
can trace it all the way back to when little
Johnny and Jimmy first started to fall in love with
football as young boys. And while everyone assumes it was
jack the forty year plus football coach, who got them
(08:13):
into the sport, the family actually credits Jackie for introducing them.
But she didn't make the introductions because she envisioned them
becoming NFL players or coaches. She just wanted them to
know what their father did for a living.
Speaker 12 (08:25):
Everyone on the outside knows what these two have accomplished
in the coaching realm of football. When did you, as
a father, know that the two men seating next to
you would be great coaches?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
This is the Harbaugh family at a Michigan coaches clinic
in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 13 (08:40):
First of all, Jackie, please stand up, Please stand up.
Speaker 9 (08:43):
Be recognizing Jackie.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Harbor Inn.
Speaker 13 (08:50):
And the reason I recognize her, I just tell a story.
It's been told before, but I was in a coaching
class at Bowling Green State University in nineteen fifty eight
and Deyt Perry, the beloved great Deuyt Perry, a Hall
of Fame coach. The stadium down there at Bowling Greens
named after him.
Speaker 9 (09:10):
He was teaching the class. He was there.
Speaker 13 (09:13):
Every single day and there were about thirty football coaches
and they're taking the class.
Speaker 9 (09:18):
And I was one of them.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
And you see football players, I mean thirty football player
wanted to get a grade.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
They were looking for the.
Speaker 9 (09:24):
Smart a for athlete, I think is the way he greed.
Speaker 13 (09:28):
But anyway, he taught the class and the first day
he went, he looked out just like I'm looking out
here at this crowd.
Speaker 9 (09:34):
You all want to be football coaches, don't you?
Speaker 13 (09:36):
And all thirty of us waved, waved our head. Yes,
that's what we want to do. We want to be
football coaches. I'm going to tell you how.
Speaker 9 (09:42):
To do it. I'm going to tell you how you
can become a football coach. Three things. I'm start with
number three.
Speaker 13 (09:51):
Number one, you better have a love and a passion
for this game.
Speaker 14 (09:56):
Every day you wake up.
Speaker 13 (09:57):
You'Re excited to get to that office to meet that
first challenge. And there will be a challenge that particular day,
and you better be ready to meet it.
Speaker 9 (10:05):
The love and passion for the game. Number two, you
better be smarter than anyone you coach against, And Deutsch said,
the reason I say that is I know most of
you in this room, and you aren't very smart.
Speaker 13 (10:18):
There's going to be a lot of guys out there
smarter than what you are, so you better outwork them.
Speaker 9 (10:24):
You better work harder than anyone you play against.
Speaker 13 (10:27):
And number one, and you can just imagine, just like
if you've not heard this story, you're on the.
Speaker 9 (10:32):
End of your seat, aren't you. What is number one?
Number one was Mary.
Speaker 13 (10:40):
Wisely because if you don't have a good wife, if
you don't.
Speaker 12 (10:46):
Have a wife and understand, I applaud the story. I
love the story. But I see the apple doesn't fall
far from the tree. You're a true coach. He didn't
answer the question this is like a press conference.
Speaker 9 (11:00):
Uh. I know I'm talking too much, but just no,
I love it. Just two things. What was the question?
What was the.
Speaker 12 (11:10):
Original question when you first saw the sign of a
great coach in both of your sons.
Speaker 9 (11:15):
Maybe he didn't.
Speaker 15 (11:16):
Is that's awesome?
Speaker 7 (11:17):
I think it's where John said.
Speaker 5 (11:18):
He didn't say a big read them out there then.
Speaker 9 (11:22):
But one thing, Jackie said, one time we were doing
that's what the stop talk. We were.
Speaker 13 (11:31):
We were doing an interview for the Super Bowl, and
they came into our home and the camera set up
and Jackie and I are talking, and they asked Jackie
a question, that same question, when did you know that
John and Jim and and Joni marrying a basketball coach?
Speaker 9 (11:44):
When did you know that they were.
Speaker 13 (11:46):
Destined for for athletics and and for and for coaching.
Speaker 9 (11:50):
And she made a.
Speaker 13 (11:51):
Statement that I had never heard in our entire married life.
And the statement went something like this.
Speaker 9 (11:56):
The thing I.
Speaker 13 (11:57):
Chose to do very early in their lives and Joni's life,
I wanted them to know what their father did.
Speaker 9 (12:06):
I wanted them to know when he left at six o'clock.
Speaker 13 (12:09):
In the morning before the sun came up, where he
was going, and what he was doing. And I wanted
when he came home at ten thirty at night or
ten o'clock or whenever they hurt the door open in
the room and the door closed, And that was pretty
much at the end of that. I wanted to know
what they did. So she brought our youngsters to practice.
Speaker 9 (12:31):
When they were in strollers, she would bring.
Speaker 13 (12:34):
Them out and put them on the sideline and they
would watch players would come.
Speaker 7 (12:38):
Over and.
Speaker 13 (12:40):
Fool with them, you know, brother their heads and you
tough with the you know and all that stuff. And
they got to know the players. And then when they
got into high school, Bo allowed them to come to
practice along with Jerry and Gary's kids, and they hung
around the practice thing. But it was a process that
she introduced them to fletics. They evidently saw some things
(13:02):
that they liked about playing and coaching, and then.
Speaker 9 (13:06):
They pursued it. They did it.
Speaker 13 (13:08):
We were just chaperones, watching and enjoying the process. So
I would suggest for some of you young coaches that
have youngsters, they you can't be with them twenty four
hours a day, but there's not a reason that they
can't come and.
Speaker 9 (13:23):
Be with you.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
They all joked about Jack forgetting the original question, but
come on, he didn't really forget it. And I know
that because I've heard him give that exact answer to
that exact question on more than one occasion. After hearing
Jack's response to this question a few times, I picked
up on two important trends. First, he always always points
(13:45):
to Jackie when people ask about the success of their children. Second,
he never ever points to a single moment when he
knew the kids would become great coaches. Okay, for just
a couple of minutes, this is where I want to
take a small detour. Is still on the topic about
the brother's paths and the shadow cast by Jim, But
(14:06):
the very beginning of their paths started with mom. That's
true of most of us, right, Well, I would be
remiss if I wrote a nine episode podcast on John
Harbor his family and not talk more about Jackie. Jack
called her his hero, which may I say is just heartwarming.
(14:26):
She is most deserving of that honored title, and the
family clearly cherishes the work and sacrifices Jackie made while
the couple raise their three children. You know, lots of
people ask me how Jack and Jackie met. What's their
whole backstory? Well, they've been together for fifty nine years,
fifty five of them married after meeting in a freshman
(14:48):
biology class at Bowling Green State University.
Speaker 16 (14:52):
We're in a biology class or alphabetized abc C. I'm
looking down into the C section. I see so pd C,
I P I TI most gorgeous individual I'd ever seen
in my life.
Speaker 7 (15:09):
Tell me about your first date.
Speaker 16 (15:10):
First date, we had no money, so we just walked
around campus and for about an hour just talking.
Speaker 7 (15:17):
That kind of became a routine date for us.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Now tell me when you first met Jack.
Speaker 7 (15:22):
Was it love at first sight for you? I don't know,
it wasn't for me.
Speaker 6 (15:28):
There's really no I don't think. So we were just
we became friends. My mind wasn't focused on getting into
any you know, serious relationships. I had to finish college
and my plan was not to get married till I
(15:49):
was twenty eight years old or anything like that, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
So they did it off and on for four years
throughout college, and they ultimately got engaged to be married.
But first after graduate, Jack was drafted into the NFL
in nineteen sixty one, and meanwhile Jackie was accepted into
President John F. Kennedy's newly developed Peace Corps. She was
scheduled to head to Penn State to be trained for
her work for underdeveloped areas in the Philippines. They thought
(16:15):
the timing was perfect. He'd play football for four or
five years, and she'd work in the Philippines, and then
they'd get married afterwards. But something unexpected happened. Hey, now
I noticed that you played for one year for the
New York Titans.
Speaker 16 (16:30):
No, Now, what happens if you if you're WHIPI Kittie
or whatever?
Speaker 7 (16:35):
What is that whip a pity? Wikipedia? Wikipedia? So it's wrong?
If it's wrong, am I am I legally responsible for that?
Speaker 10 (16:43):
No?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
But I can ride into Wikipedia for you if you
want me to.
Speaker 7 (16:46):
You never played, I did.
Speaker 13 (16:47):
I.
Speaker 7 (16:48):
I was with Buffalo Bills. Oh it's the Buffalo Bills
for three days a year. What happened in those three days?
I got cut.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
With his NFL career being cut so short, Jack went
straight back to Jackie.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
So he came home and I think, I said, what
are you doing here? And he said, well, I didn't
make it, so you know, we can make plans and everything.
I said, no, I'm going. I'm going to Peace Corps training.
And I went to the training and I was accepted.
(17:27):
But then there was a guy who was there in
the training and I guess I had my engagement right now,
and he said, are you engaged? I said yes, He
said what are you doing here? And I you know,
I because I was all into that focused, yeah, into
(17:50):
doing this. I thought it was important. I thought it
was a great idea, and I guess I thought about it,
you know, and then I chose the other path and
came home. But one thing, one lesson I learned from
that was from a Filipino because they had sent some
(18:12):
people over to train, and he said that Filipinos saying
is you gave me wings to fly, and then you
took away the sky. So I tried to always remember
that when the kids were growing up, right, you know,
(18:32):
because you have to give them the opportunity to fly, right,
but don't ever take that opportunity away from them. And
I guess that was always stuck in the back of
my mind the whole time.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
The Hardbode children are forever grateful that their mom chose
the path of family and mother. As Jack said, she
is the rock of the family as they moved seventeen times.
Back in the nineteen sixties, you had to get a
master's degree to even coach, and once you got that,
you usually got your first job coaching in high school,
(19:12):
and then you worked your way up. That's exactly what
the Harbaughs did during Jack's forty three year career.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
We were just so busy raising a family right that
it was a day to day situation. You had to
do what you had to do every day. You didn't
make a whole lot of money. So it was all
those years when they were babies and toddlers, it was
(19:38):
moving all the time, right, and nobody paid for your moves? Yeah,
neither no, And we pack everything up ourselves. I mean
we didn't have a lot of stuff, right.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
So did you ever were there any moves where you
were like, oh, I don't want to do this again?
Speaker 7 (19:55):
Or were you just like, okay, new opportunity, let's go. No.
Speaker 6 (19:59):
I mean he always took the job, so you never
asked how much money are you making or you know,
what's a situation?
Speaker 7 (20:10):
Like you just got there and you did what you
had to do.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Jackie sounds kind of amazing, doesn't she so selfless and
all in for the family. Well, that brings us back
to John and Jim and when she first introduced them
to football by taking them to Jack's work.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
I think because I took them to practice, and sometimes
I think because they watched what he did that stuck subconsciously,
I think with them all these years. No, I mean
(20:51):
I didn't have influence as far as what they know
about football. So I always believed that your kids should
know what their father does. And I don't really ever
think anybody thought at that time that We're going to
be coaches or I'm ever going to get a scholarship
(21:16):
to play in college. We as parents didn't think that way, right,
you know, maybe just wanted them to have a good experience.
Good experience you know have. Oh you're capable of doing this,
that's great, you enjoy it?
Speaker 7 (21:29):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Okay, So the goal wasn't to get the kids into
sports and football. Jackie and Jackie weren't plotting the kids'
football careers. The goal was about family, building a strong, productive,
happy family, and with dad leaving before sunrise and getting
home after sunset, Mom was determined to bring the kids
(21:51):
into dad's world and let them see why he was
absent from home.
Speaker 9 (21:55):
Now.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Of course, a natural side effect to Jackie's desire to
provide that strong fatherly presence was the planning of a
small football seed that ultimately but unintentionally, blossomed into the
historic coaching tree we see today. That seed underwent an
especially healthy growth spurt when it was nourished by the
Michigan Wolverine's football program and the ann Arbor Junior Packers. Okay,
(22:20):
so you remember when jack said he never specifically saw
a single moment that he knew his kids would be great. Well,
that's because he wasn't looking. But others were friends, coaches, teammates,
they were all watching. That's just what happened because they
were the sons of a Michigan football coach. But here's
what they started to notice right off the bat. First
(22:41):
is pioneer high school coach Chuck Ritter.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
It doesn't surprise me that both of ended up as
outstanding coaches. When you get them together, they mix very nicely.
But if you just see one to time, you say, oh,
Jim's the one that's in your face, and John's a
quiet one.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Of course, we now know John isn't so quiet, but
that's how Rider remembers him in high school. And when
we press for more memories of John as a high schooler,
Ritter said, I.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Don'T remember because he was a good player, but he
was not allowed person.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
But he could remember Jim.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
When people ask me about Jim, I tell him three things.
He's smart, he's hard working, and he hates to lose.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Blone the boys former teammate has more vivid memories.
Speaker 11 (23:34):
I'll tell you what. Growing up with those two guys, Jim,
you always knew he was going to be a great
athlete because he had he had such a skill set.
He just as he had that that a lot of
kids have at that age. He just excelled above other people.
John worked really hard, and you always knew John was
going to be a coach. John had he studied that
(23:57):
game and at a high school level. That was especially
in the seventy nine seventy eight we were in there
doing just playing football. John was a different level.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
John played defensive back in high school and he sometimes
pokes fun at himself by saying he was an undersized
football player. Well, maybe he didn't have the god given athleticism,
but what stuck out in teammates' minds, like Belanges, is
how tough he was, just like he still is today.
Speaker 11 (24:25):
Well, John would come up hard and he had a
neck collar i think at one point because he had
a stinger in his neck or something, and he would
still go and stick his head in there and really
rack it. And that day you could football was important
to him more than other people on the team. You
could always tell.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
As a senior. In nineteen seventy nine, John injured his
knee and missed the first seven games of his final
high school season. Bolange recalls how important it was for
John to rehab and make it back to the field.
His hard work did not go unnoticed by coaches and teammates.
By the time he returned, Jim had gone from being
(25:07):
the JV backup, to the JV starter, to the varsity backup,
and then the varsity starter, all while he was just
a sophomore. His coaches called him the real deal. Guess
who was benched in favor of him, John Minnick. You
know the son of John and Jim's first football coach
(25:27):
for the junior Packers, the one who hates two percent milk. Yeah,
him and his son, the three Minnick sons, John, Jeff,
and Jim and the Harba Boys. John and Jim, I
know lots of j names well. They were close childhood
friends during those years in Ann Arbor. And in this
NFL Network feature, John Minnick recalls the exact game and
(25:49):
the exact time in which coaches approached him and told
him that Jim would take his place as the starting quarterback.
Speaker 17 (25:57):
I can remember the game vividly. It was a fifth
game of our junior year. I don't remember the score,
but we were losing, and the coach came up to
me at halftime and said, hey, Jim Harbaugh was going
to go in quarterback, just like that. I remember Jim
was gracious, humble, poised, but yet very confident when he
(26:19):
came in and became the starting quarterback as a sophomore.
Was I disappointed?
Speaker 15 (26:24):
Sure?
Speaker 17 (26:24):
But how do you react to your best friend and
you know it's a special athlete.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
And you knew that.
Speaker 15 (26:30):
I knew it long before even Pioneer.
Speaker 17 (26:32):
Of course I knew that.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
With Jim at quarterback and John just returning from injury,
the brothers got to play two games of varsity football together.
John was usually the leader on defense, but he was
also used on offense when times called for it.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Well, it's amazing to be back here. It's the first
time I've been back here since high school, since nineteen eighty,
which is pretty incredible. And it looks pretty much the
same to me. I mean, this is this wing down here.
This might have been the science wing down here. I
didn't really spend much.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
Time down here.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
John gave us a to the were of Pioneer High
School when he was inducted into their Hall of Fame.
In twenty sixteen, and while there he recalled some memorable
plays he had on the field, including a very special
moment with his brother that had never happened before or since.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
The last game was against Anna ober here on our
arch rival, who we never lost to the whole time
I was here, even in twenty two years up until
that point, and we were in a tight game, and
my brother had brought up, had been brought up to
be the quarterback during the time that I was gone,
so he was the starting quarterback. And I came back,
was playing wing back in the wing tea and he
had me in a deep pass up the sideline, as
(27:34):
I remember it, deathly juke, somebody made a miss, stepped
over somebody else, didn't quite score. But then the loud
speaker saying Harbor to Harrball for the first time, So
that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Pioneer finished that season with a four and five record,
only the team's second losing record in twelve seasons. And
who would have thought with the Harrballs on the team.
But an old ann Arbor newspaper clipping, which we've posted
on the Man of the Crowd micro site if you
want to take a look at Baltimore Ravens dot Com. Well,
it cited a run on injuries, including to John, as
(28:07):
the reason for their down year. There's another clipping that
told of Jim's assent to starting quarterback. Anyway, we already
know what happened after that season, right Jack took the
defensive coordinator job at Stanford. So Jim finished his high
school career in California, and John graduated and went on
to play football at the University of Miami in Ohio.
(28:28):
He didn't go to Michigan. When the brothers returned for
their Hall of Fame inductions at Pioneer High there was
this fun Q and A with Michigan Radio's Ira Wintraub,
and it got lots of laughs, but it once again
highlighted John as the older, quiet, hard working brother and
Jim is the younger, confident, superior athlete. It was nearly
(28:48):
forty years later and their reputations were still intact.
Speaker 9 (28:52):
Unlike your brother, you obviously didn't go to Michigan. You
went to Miami, Ohio. Why'd you choose Miami, Ohio?
Speaker 3 (28:57):
They wanted me, But Miami's a great school.
Speaker 12 (29:02):
A couple of Miami grand sitting out here right now.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
There you go, and uh, no, great great school Miami.
Anybody watch a great academic you know, experience, great campus
down there Miami.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
Yeah, we're very proud of that.
Speaker 9 (29:12):
What's your point, IRA's sure.
Speaker 7 (29:14):
Where you're going with this?
Speaker 9 (29:14):
You know, I was just going to Michigan. I'm sorry.
Speaker 7 (29:16):
I wanted to go to Michigan.
Speaker 9 (29:19):
I think it was a great decision. Coaches, Look where
you are the man. I was just curious. It is
a little warmrogated here.
Speaker 13 (29:27):
So you're the big brother, come on, admitute used to
be Jim up a little bit.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Well, I mean rare I just after after it. You
always had to look over your shoulder with Jim. I mean,
Jim was always coming. We had a few scuffles, a
few tussles, but I came out on the probably the
lower end of those most of the time. But I
gotta be honest.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
So it was a like doing at some point in
time when he's surpassed you as an athlete, you're the
big brother, but at some point he's the pasted you.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Well, I was fortunate that it happened very early, Ira,
you know, so I got I think a lot of
practice at it.
Speaker 18 (29:54):
Now.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
We were we used to we used to uh, we
played all the time, and Jim was Jim was such
a good athlete. Coach Minnick, you know this, he was.
He was with the older guys all the time, right,
He played with Jeff and John.
Speaker 17 (30:06):
Jim.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Jim was the same way Jim Minick sitting over there.
We were five of us were running around playing games
and being on teams and everything, and Jim was just
just good enough to be with our guys.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
John always looking over his shoulder didn't end after their
prep star days. John recalls the last physical fight he
and Jim had when they were adults in their mid twenties,
and as a quick side note, while John tells the story,
he hits his mic a few times so they'll explain
some of the audio issues you'll hear.
Speaker 9 (30:31):
Here's the Baltimore Ravens. John Harbaugh, thanks me very much.
Set out nail down whatever.
Speaker 10 (30:39):
So I got this hat that says four fights. That
was appropriate because we pretty much fought our whole life.
So in the last fight that Hey and I had,
after many years of fighting, and HiT's ho work like
I was older slightly, so I'd grow get a little
bit bigger. Occasionally win a fight against my brother that
he would catch up to me because he's a big,
strong guy, you know, and he'd kick my ass for
(30:59):
a little while, and then I'd grow a little bit
and be able to get him.
Speaker 9 (31:02):
In the headlock.
Speaker 10 (31:03):
He denies, and he says I never beat him in
a fight. That's not true. I won a couple fights,
but I went to college whatever. He went to Michigan.
He gets drafted in the first round. I'm coaching football
and he's doing real well with the Bears and decides
to take us on a trip to Amelia Island.
Speaker 7 (31:20):
You know where.
Speaker 10 (31:20):
That's at Amelia Island. It's in Florida. Okay, it's nice. Okay,
it's a resort. It's a beach. He's got money now,
and we're going to the beach. Okay, we're gonna have
a good time. We get out there and swim around
the water, you know, and kind of get next to
each other. We start wrestling around. Next thing, you know,
we starts splashing around. It gets a little rougher, gets
a little tougher.
Speaker 7 (31:37):
Next thing, you know, he.
Speaker 10 (31:38):
Grabs me up in the air and slid into the
water waves rushing over top of us underwater. I'm kicking
he's got me like all Kurt tied up. I'm thinking,
all right, we'll go. Let me up here a minute.
Dunks me, picks me up, dunks me again, holds me
under the water.
Speaker 7 (31:56):
Now I'm like, okay, let me up. I'm still under water.
Let me up.
Speaker 10 (32:02):
Woo woom woom, everyone's coming out.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
You know.
Speaker 10 (32:05):
It goes through my mind like he snapped or all
those years, all those fights, all that and being the
little brother having to hear everybody's older brother, being all that,
he's gonna this is how it's gonna end. He's gonna
take me down. Right now, Finally he lets me out.
(32:26):
You know, I look at it. You look to you
after the game and you walk across the field and
you shake your opponent's hand after you win the game
and kick his ass. Right, the look you have in
your eye, right, that's the lucky gamy kind like kind
of like is that subtile it? You know, and that's
where it's stood all those years. We haven't thought said,
so that's what you're dealing with with your head, coach. Okay,
(32:48):
just so you know, you got a fighter, all right,
and that's why you're here at Michigan because you are fighters,
And that's what you are going to be today, tomorrow,
and when you line up next year, you are going
to fight.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
Is that the look he gave me after the Super Bowl?
Speaker 18 (33:03):
Was that to the air?
Speaker 17 (33:04):
Hey?
Speaker 10 (33:05):
Hey, right, well least six ter the super Bowl case,
so right to the super Bowl, here's what he does.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Sorry, but I can't give away that Super Bowl handshake
story just yet. I'm saving that for next episode. But
I can tell you it's kind of amazing. Anyway, After
high school, the shadow that Jim cast only seemed to
get bigger because John got a partial scholarship from Miami
of Ohio to play defensive back, but rarely saw the field.
(33:31):
He graduated with a degree in political science and briefly
considered going to law school, but instead he took a
graduate assistant job on his dad's staff at Western Michigan University,
and as far as coaching staffs go, it's the lowest
rung on the ladder. He very slowly worked his way
up the rings for nearly the next quarter century as
(33:52):
a college and NFL assistant, and even in those twenty
five years, he never got to the level of offensive
or defensive court. Instead, he was the Philadelphia Eagles special
teams coordinator for nine years that spanned over two head
coaches in Ray Rhoads and Andy Reid. Meanwhile, Jim went
on to a full ride scholarship at the more nationally
(34:14):
prominent football program at Michigan. He became an All American
and a Heisman Trophy finalist, and he was good enough
to be selected in the first round of the nineteen
eighty seven draft by the Chicago Bears and the legendary
Mike Ditka. He enjoyed a long fourteen year career in
the NFL, was voted into the Pro Bowl, and led
(34:35):
the Indianapolis Colts to the AFC Championship Game and earned
the title Captain Comeback. And even though friends back in
ann Arbor dubbed Jim the athlete and John the coach,
Jim was the one who ascended the coaching ranks faster.
In fact, Jim got a head coaching job four years
before John did. When I was talking with Ravens owner
(34:55):
Steve Bushatti, I had called Jim's coaching career bumpy because
he had moved a around so much and because of
the way things ended in San Francisco. But while John's
coaching career may have been more under the radar, but
Shati said it was anything but smooth.
Speaker 15 (35:09):
Jim's world hasn't been bumpy. Jim's world is a series
of positive, successful steps, from a great college quarterback to
a Pro Bowl pro quarterback to a coach at school
(35:30):
after school where he never went backwards San Diego State, Stanford,
the Pros, back to Michigan. I don't see that as bumpy.
I see that as what you would expect of a
successful guy like Jim. They're not bumps, their steps steps.
(35:54):
It's all ascending for Jim. John's only probably trauma in
his life being stuck for an extended period of time,
and he stayed and stayed and stayed, and they were
regarded as one of the best special teams in the league.
It wasn't until the year before I hired John that
(36:15):
he and Andy devised a plan to get him to
move to defensive backs. Because special teams coaches didn't get
head coaching jobs, they didn't get defensive coordinator jobs to
even have that step up. So Andy respected John enough
in his capabilities to say, you may be looking at
(36:37):
a dead end here, and the only way we can
solve this is if we make you the dB coach.
So that was a step back for John, and that's
a really hard thing to do after nine years as
one of the top three special teams coaches in a league,
to realize that if he was ever going to move forward,
he probably had to take a step back to go forward.
To me, that didn't seem that might that by definitie,
(37:00):
that's not bumpy to you, but to me, that was
way more pressure in his mid forties to have to
go back and be a position coach just so that
he could possibly become a defensive coordinator down the road.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I didn't plan for this to happen, but during my
interview with Bushati, we got a little deeper into John
and Jim's personality and how he compares the two.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
What are your impressions of Jim Crazy?
Speaker 7 (37:27):
No, I love Jim, I really do.
Speaker 15 (37:29):
I think that Jim and I would have battled more
because I'm you know, it's so funny when people see
such differences, and yet it's not like their type A
and type B. John is pretty as much as type
A as it gets until you compare him to his brother.
But I kind of get to appreciate Jim more now
(37:51):
that he's out of the NFL. Yeah, you're building a legacy,
is yeah exactly. It's like, I don't like anybody that's
competing against me. It's not my nature to want to
like somebody that is trying to take something from me.
I wanted those wins against the forty nine ers as
much as John did, and I felt like John deserved them.
(38:12):
And that's being selfish, but I did. And I love
seeing Jim shaking up the college football world. And now
I can sit back and just laugh.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Why would you have battled more with Jim?
Speaker 15 (38:24):
Because I don't think Jim might have been as good
a listener as John, A little more stubborn in my position,
I want to be heard. You know, John's really good
at letting me vent to him. And it's interesting because
some people, whether it's not verbal, some people have a
(38:52):
hard time letting somebody vent to them that is not
as intelligent as them on the subject interesting, I find
that that's what makes John such a good partner, is
that he lets me bitch and then he explains he
(39:14):
either agrees with me or he disagrees with me, or
he educates me on why I may be looking at it.
The wrong way, and that's a really hard thing to
do in the middle of a season, when you're coming
off a loss, You're dealing with the pressures that he
deals with. And I'm not saying that we don't ever argue,
(39:36):
because we do, but nine times out of ten, he
doesn't have to agree with me to respect my opinion,
and that's a really hard thing to do.
Speaker 7 (39:47):
I think.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
I asked Ashati how John has been able to lead
his team through adversity when it arises. John had to
address the Rate Rice incident, the passing of defensive player
Trey Walker, and coach Clarence Brooks. He had a transition
from the Ray Lewis era, and then he had his
first losing season as a head coach when the Ravens
lost franchise quarterback Joe Flacco to a knee injury in
(40:08):
twenty fifteen. Right now, John's trying to rebound after missing
the playoffs in the last two seasons.
Speaker 15 (40:14):
He leads his team through adversity because he is a
thinker and a listener. I mean, I go back to
that listening. He is so in tune with other people.
The empathy that he's able to create in a team
setting allows him to foresee solutions to problems.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
I wanted to play that last clip because it reminded
me of when Jim Hackett, the Michigan interim AD, told
me that Jim has immense empathy. Both bosses individually told
me that the brothers have empathy. In fact, it's so
interesting to me how similar the brother's personality are and
yet aren't at the exact same time. Brashati called both
(41:05):
of them type A personalities. They're obviously both ultra competitive,
and both Hackett and general manager Ozzie Newsoen told me
that the brothers like to do what they call scrimmage
to work through and resolve conflicts and disagreements. I see
John and Jim a lot alike, but I think the
outside world sees Jim as the more brash, in your
(41:27):
face kind of person.
Speaker 14 (41:30):
Is John that way?
Speaker 7 (41:31):
Does he just hide it better?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Do you think they're similar or the same, Or is
Jim more intense than John?
Speaker 14 (41:39):
Well, I'd never describe anybody more intense than John.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
This is Ravens Senior Vice President of public Relations, Kevin Byrne.
Speaker 14 (41:48):
When John sees something that can reflect on his team
or have anything to do with his team, when he
sees something, he says something, Yeah, and his way is
it's best to get it out there rather than seethe
about it or get angry about it and then resent
the person who's causing the issue, whether it be me,
(42:09):
Ozzie or somebody else. So John attacks the problem all
the time. I think what John is better at than Jim,
and what Jim will be angry at me for saying
this is John is better at presenting a public face
about it. And Jim has fewer stop signs than John.
John has more stop signs, maybe has more stop signs
(42:30):
as the older brother. Maybe Jim gets more stop signs
as he goes forward. But right now, John delights in
what Jim's doing at Michigan and the things that he
says publicly. Sometimes he goes. He knows exactly what he's doing.
He's having a little fun. They just don't know he's
having a little fun.
Speaker 7 (42:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Yeah, And I bet if Jim wanted to, he'd be
just as capable to put on that.
Speaker 14 (42:56):
I'm sure he is, because you know, they're both highly,
highly individuals. But I think you know, John's just I
don't want to use the more term more polished, because
Jim would really resent that. I just think there are
times when John thinks, you know, this is time for
a stop sign. I don't have to share this, I
don't have to do this publicly, and whereas Jim puts
(43:18):
it out there and tells people to deal with it.
Speaker 7 (43:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
Yeah, that's probably why one has a Twitter account and
the other does it.
Speaker 7 (43:25):
Jim definitely has fun with that.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Not only does Jim have a Twitter account, but he
has one million, nine and seventy thousand followers. Okay, to
put that into perspective, the entire University of Michigan, their
Twitter account has one point eight million fewer followers. And
as we know, Jim has a lot of fun and
(43:47):
creates a lot of headlines with his tweets, although John
sometimes makes fun of him for it.
Speaker 12 (43:53):
Jim, how about when you were when you were brought
back to Michigan, when you when you took the job
here last year, the questions still get asked about you personally,
You personally, and all you wanted to do was talk
about the kids, the fellas, the kids, and the team.
When coaches out here want to make the jump and
they want to keep taking that step and that next step,
how do you deflect attention out there on themselves and
not let the drive of the next step for them.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
Hey, Jim's doing a great job of that too, right,
I mean, you know he's deflected that. I never read
his name in the paper, tweet stuff in it.
Speaker 12 (44:25):
That's not my fault, that's him.
Speaker 8 (44:28):
I want to be good on Twitter, you know, if
you're going to do we'll be good at it.
Speaker 9 (44:33):
Right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Well, while they've taken different paths, it led them to
exactly where John believes they were supposed to go. For example,
remember when John was asked why he went to Miami
of Ohio instead of Michigan. I'm sure if Michigan came knocking,
John would have gone there. But by going to Miami
and winning that Super Bowl, John received the unbelievable honor
(44:56):
of being immortalized with a statue in Miami, Ohio's famed
Cradle of Coaches. I am telling you, in the coaching world,
it doesn't get much better than that. So now a
Bron's life size statue of John sits in the plaza,
joining other statues of legendary coaches including Paul Brown, Wilbert Weeb,
(45:19):
You Bank, Eric Parsigian, and guess who else yep, Bo Schambeckler,
John and Jim Bull spoke at the induction ceremony.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
We traveled down paths for reasons. Okay, we don't know
why we end up where we end up for what reason.
I just think we end up there because God wants
us there. And they basically says, that's where I'm putting you, okay,
and he puts you with people that are going to
make the difference in your life. And you really don't
realize it at the time, and you got to go
through things that you don't understand at the time. And
for me, I wasn't a very good football player here,
but I was the best football player I could ever
(45:51):
be and Coach Reid, so you had to see Coach
Read and Kathy Reid.
Speaker 18 (45:55):
Coach Read, thank you for bringing me to Miami. I'm
sorry I wasn't a better player, Coach. I apologize. I
did my best. I swear God, I did my best,
but thank you. It's the greatest thing in my life.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
And when I was a player here, we had a
press guide cover that's on the stadium right now, and
it's got unbelievable people on that press guide. It's the
guys in the Cradle of Coaches. I remember seeing that,
look at it and saying, I play where those men played.
I'm walking the same path that those men walked. That
web you bank walked now I'm walking to stay at
(46:29):
the game age we view banks, you know, But I
guarantee and my dreams never went to the fact that
maybe there's a possibility that you know, you could ever
be a part of something like that. And you're part
of something like that because of the guys we had
a chance to play with, because the coaches we had
a chance to play for, but were The point I'm
trying to make is that you can't dream too big.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Here's Jim.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
I prided myself for a very long time on being
the tallest harball in the family of all the generations.
From a very young age, I wanted to be a
pro football player, and I thought that would have to
be over six foot tall, probably somewhere in the neighborhood
of six y two, to have a chance to make it.
So that all changed today where they unveiled the statue
(47:21):
no longer the tallest tarball. And I got to tell
you somewhere along the line, as a young kid, I
learned that if you drank milk, it was good for
your bones and you go big and strong. And between
the ages of six years old and thirty eight years old,
I drank more milk than any person that has ever
(47:42):
walked the face of this earth. It's now gone down
the drain, as you can tell, just so proud. Could
been so many proud moments that John has brought the
Harball family. But to see the statue of Bosham Beckler
and then John's statue as well, it's just I got goosebumps.
(48:05):
I got chills.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
For as competitive as the brothers are, they always have
each other's back and they delight in the other's success.
And John eventually got his coming out party right as
a head coach, a super Bowl champion, and with that
statue in the Cradle of Coaches. But I had wondered
how he felt before all of that, during all those
years when his brother was in the limelight while he
(48:28):
was quietly and diligently plugging along behind the scenes.
Speaker 16 (48:33):
The thing I think sticks out for me as a
parent is that they're fourteen months apart. They moved I
know twelve thirteen times they had to.
Speaker 7 (48:43):
Go into a New Town.
Speaker 16 (48:44):
They had each other to get through those experiences, and
then we'd move again. They had each other here we go,
competed in the same sports against each other on multiple occasions.
And John had the knee injury in high school the
kind of knocked him back a little bit. And then
Jim goes on to Michigan quarterback. Then he's drafted in
(49:08):
the first round by the Bears. He plays there for
seven years, and he goes to the Colt comes out,
quits playing. Ends it's a head coaching job before John did.
John still he's plugging along, and you know he's a
special teams coach with the Eagles at the time, but
he's not a head coach. Never, I'm telling I'm looking
at your right in the eye. Never did he ever
(49:30):
show any kind of feeling of remorse or resentment or
why not me? He always supported him, called him, wished him.
I mean, it's to me, it's it's the greatest quality
of all because.
Speaker 7 (49:42):
Most times, no jealousy. Why not me?
Speaker 11 (49:45):
Right?
Speaker 7 (49:45):
You know why am I not six three? You know
why am I not fourteen months apart?
Speaker 15 (49:50):
You know?
Speaker 7 (49:51):
Why? Why not?
Speaker 16 (49:52):
Never Once did that ever come into any discussion that
we ever had when talking to John was if you
talk to Jim, it's everything, okay, you think I need
to get him a call? You know, when things didn't
go well for him, I was always looking after him
and caring about him, and the same with Jim.
Speaker 7 (50:08):
Towards John.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
I brought to John some of the things that his
parents said about him, including the one from his mom
that we heard at the beginning of this episode. John
and I listened to that clip together.
Speaker 19 (50:18):
It brings tums to my eyes thinking about it, because
it's huge, you know, it's they've both traveled a different path,
and John traveled a long.
Speaker 20 (50:34):
Path you might say Jim's shadow in a sense, and
never resented a moment of it, never resented a moment
of it.
Speaker 6 (50:48):
But as I said before, always in the back of
his mind was you know, if it happens for me,
I have a.
Speaker 7 (50:56):
Plan and working on that plant. How proud of him
to that.
Speaker 1 (51:04):
I'm a mom and so that's very easily gets to me.
Life is not a pie chart. And they wanted to
be one hundred percent happy for you, which you can
hear from her, how she had seen you go, you know,
in your own journey, and just so proud of you.
What does that mean to you to have a mom
who just gets it but gets you.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
Yeah, Well, as a mom, I think that, I mean
you would and now is it. I'm a dad, so
I understand it way more now than I ever did
when I was just a son.
Speaker 17 (51:34):
You know.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
It's you get the feeling parents have, and I look
at my own daughter and I'm just like, as much
as the greatest relationship is, she doesn't really understand how
much she loves us, but she doesn't understand how much
we love her, you know. And I probably never understood
how much my mom and dad loved me and us
until until we had Alison.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
She talked about she said how proud she was of
like you, never saying that you were in his shadow
or feeling like you were always had his back, you
were always there. Did you ever feel like you were
in his shadow?
Speaker 7 (52:09):
Or was that?
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Was that a coming out for you to win? That
was Did that play into it at all for you?
Speaker 3 (52:13):
You know, it's funny. It's a great question to ask,
and I think it's an assumption to think that, But
the honest to goodness truth is that that that really
played no part in it, which is really interesting. I mean, no,
I didn't want to lose, and I didn't want to
lose to my brother. I don't want to lose to anybody,
and I certainly didn't want to. You don't want to lose.
You don't want to lose your best friend. You don't
want to lose your brother in anything.
Speaker 1 (52:31):
That's just because it's competitive, right.
Speaker 3 (52:33):
That'S exactly right.
Speaker 8 (52:34):
It was.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
It's not from it like I have to prove yourself
or to you know, show that I'm something, you know,
compared to him. And all the way through, I was
always just completely proud of Ike. Can remember going to games,
little league games, and when we're when I'm twelve and
he's ten and a half and and just being like, man,
this dude is a complete stud.
Speaker 7 (52:52):
You know, this little kid, my little bro is a stud.
Speaker 9 (52:54):
He's got proud of him.
Speaker 7 (52:55):
I'm proud of He's going to kill it.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
John went on to say that he was also grateful
that Jim was so successful because it opened up doors
for him. He was able to meet coaches at the
Chicago Bears and Indianapolis Colts because Jim played for them.
But more than anything, John never felt sorry for himself. Instead,
he said that Jim motivated him to be better.
Speaker 7 (53:17):
Because of Jim.
Speaker 3 (53:18):
I mean, those were doors that were open because Jim
was incredible and.
Speaker 7 (53:22):
Everybody loved him, you know.
Speaker 3 (53:23):
So I mean, I mean I just rooted for him,
you know, and I knew, I knew that he was
going to be really really you know, I just was
proud of him. And I guess if I had one
overriding thought through the whole thing, it was basically the
motivation was I mean, besides always you know, being driven,
I'm just kind of.
Speaker 7 (53:39):
Like you're driven, We're driven.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
But my thing was I got to hold up my
end of the bargain. I mean, look how great he's doing.
I just need to hold up my end of the
bargain and do something here.
Speaker 10 (53:50):
You know.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
That was probably it all the way through. And so
I mean, it wasn't like the Super Bowl was the
culmination of that by any stretch. It was the fact
that we can both look at each other and say
we're bold here together. To me, that's like the metaphor
that to me is just like that you just could
not even fathom. I Mean, it says in the Bible
that God has dreams and plans for us that are
(54:12):
beyond our ability to even imagine or think about incredible things.
And that's the lesson that I've learned in life.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
I love that. How many people would sit and sulk
and complain about not getting the chances that Jim had.
John didn't. That wasn't his style. He may have been
an underdog, but he embraced that role and used it
to motivate himself.
Speaker 9 (54:35):
Well.
Speaker 1 (54:36):
Jim didn't note at the time, but he played a
part in motivating John once again, right before he was
about to face one of his biggest rivals in coaching
nemesis in the New England Patriots and Bill Belichick. John
and the Ravens return to Gillette Stadium in Foxborough, Massachusetts,
on January twentieth, twenty thirteen, to play in the AFC
Championship Game. John was in the pregame looking up at
(54:59):
the boards with his rival by his side, and then
they saw something.
Speaker 3 (55:04):
I couldn't help but watch the game on the big screen,
you know, while our team's warming up, and it's just incredible,
and everybody's watching it. The fans, the players are watching
them while they're warming out. I watching with Bill Belichick,
right I'm watching with coach Belichick. We're watching, you know,
and and I'm rooting for a fan, I'm rooting for him.
It's that last drive and they get him stopped on
the five yard line, you know, ironically enough, and they
(55:26):
win the game, and they're going to the super Bowl,
and it's like, yeah, my brother's going to the super Bowl.
Speaker 7 (55:31):
And then it hits you. It's like, I need we
got to go to the super Bowl. I can't. He
can't go to the super Bowl. Before we go to
the super Bowl, we have to win this game.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
There it is Jim's shadow again, but instead of feeling
sorry for himself, we're feeling intimidated by the moment. It
motivated John just like it always did. He and the
Ravens went on to beat the Patriots twenty eight to thirteen,
despite being heavy underdogs. So now their brothers, who grew
grew up in the same room where the same pajamas,
(56:03):
had the same bed sheets, and played on the same
Junior Packers and Pioneer high school football teams, those brothers
would face off in the Super Bowl. I'm going to
take you through that emotionally charged Super Bowl week, but
this time through the eyes of the family. Next time
on man of the crowd.
Speaker 6 (56:23):
And it was unbelievable, just stunned. I kind of wish
it hadn't been both Ravens and forty nine ers.
Speaker 7 (56:32):
She looks so miserable.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
Do you think it's possible that she's the one that
took out the lights at halftime of the.
Speaker 16 (56:38):
Street is the first time I've ever seen any part
of that game on video. Really, I've never watched the game.
You've never gone back.
Speaker 7 (56:48):
I have no desire to ever see it.
Speaker 10 (56:50):
Hey, grasp my head stick, give me a hard, stiff
far what you say, don't?
Speaker 7 (56:54):
Just said so big odd? His lip was quivering. What
do you think last play? What'd you think was holding one?
Speaker 16 (57:02):
That a parent can only be as happy as their
unhappiest child.
Speaker 6 (57:06):
This is what this game is all about, Jim. This
is all about family. And in the end, what does it.
Speaker 7 (57:13):
Come down to?
Speaker 6 (57:14):
It comes down to your familyfe.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
Hey, man of the crowd listeners, Before you go, I
just wanted to say thank you for such a strong
showing of support for the podcast. We're very happy with
how many of you there are out there listening, and
we'd love to have even more people find us, So
please consider reating the podcast and writing a review. The
more subscribers and positive ratings Man of the Crowd gets,
(57:44):
the more others will be able to find it. Also,
don't forget to continually check back to our microsite at
Baltimore Ravens dot com backslash Man of the Crowd. It
has content that compliments what you're listening to here, including
biographies of key interviews I've conducted, photo galleries and more.
And as always, I want to hear from you after
(58:04):
each episode. If you have any comments or questions or whatever,
hit me up on Twitter. My handle is at sg Ellison.
I look forward to your feedback and would love to
interact with you. Okay, that's it. That's all I've got,
but I'll be back next week with episode eight. Life
is not a pie chart.
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