HR2: Live from OTAs

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
He's the Drive with Dale Lolly and Matt Williamson on
your twenty four to seven Home of the Black and
Gold Steelers Nation Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Back o t A c Here Hour number two on
Day number five, live on the South side of the
U p M. C Rudy Sports Complex, a special edition
of The Drive. Matt Williamson is the regular. You've got
West Schuler and Rob King. Uh heregulars, Yeah, irregulars.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
We're part of the extended family, you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (00:34):
But uh but yeah, usually sitting at the card table
in the next room, in the living room.

Speaker 5 (00:38):
That's exactly right, tables large.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Rob King kind enough to join us, continue to join
us here recovering from his Paul skins hangover nicely, so good,
anybody eight innings, pitch three hits one.

Speaker 5 (00:59):
Walking, eight ks, well.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Prett day, pretty day.

Speaker 4 (01:03):
And then you know, and and by the way, those
k's ticking up as the game goes on, he's.

Speaker 5 (01:07):
Really oh yeah, and just in total control.

Speaker 4 (01:09):
Let's get let's get some easy out here to get
some ground or oh yeah, now I need to dominate you, Okay,
I'll just dominate it.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Some guys just make it look so easy, much like
Rob King does anytime he hops on the horn here
with us. All right, Matt, you kind of tease it
there at the end of the first hour. Let's talk
a little late round draft pick strategy.

Speaker 5 (01:27):
I think the league is gently drifting away or looking
at different ways to use your particularly six and seventh
round picks. And there was a stretch there and Omar
was really if you notice, Omar does this a lot,
but it's also become really common in the league. Let's
make a trade for DK Metcalf or Pickens or whatever,
and I'll give you my seventh, you give us our six,

(01:47):
you know, like he always makes that little swop. Yeah,
and who's gonna say no to that if you basically
have a deal in place for Pickens. But a year
from now, I'm gonna move up one round and at
the ball in the draft. Okay, we still got a
deal and sign me up, you know whatever. But I
think there's different philosophies of how to use those picks now,
Like no one looks at him like I'm gonna get
my starting left tackle there. I mean, of course there's
some positions you're not going to get there. But I

(02:09):
find it really interesting what the Eagles do, and they've
basically they don't even hide it anymore. Is they look
for outliers at the end of the draft. They look
at guys like Jordan Mulatta who didn't play football, or
they drafted a really small weapon, you know that runs
like a four to two last year, that we maybe

(02:30):
we'll see him down the road, and basically saying we
only need to hit on one out of ten. I mean,
if I hit on one air and I would love
to talk to like Andy White or someone's been that organization.
And from what I've been told, they look for guys
in those two rounds that have starter traits where I
could write a story somewhat unbelievable one, but I could

(02:53):
write a story where this guy turns into a starter.
And if you get a starter one out of five
years in the sex or seventh round, pretty good. It's huge,
I mean, and their O line coach has something to
do with it. Much like Munchak, he takes like their
draft this year, they took two or three high upside
not very good football players that are O lineman. If

(03:14):
one of them turns into a starting guarter tackle in
three years, that's a phenomenal pick. You know, I mean,
O Linman are going way higher than they should, you
know what I mean, And they do it time and
time again, so.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
I you know, I love it, Kinger when Williamson lays
down an example and you look and it's just pure gold.
Some of these names that the Eagles are drafted in
the sixth and seventh round in the last decade are.

Speaker 6 (03:37):
Nuts, It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Jordan Poyer, Bo Allen, Jalen Mills, Jordan Mylatta.

Speaker 5 (03:43):
A lotta might be the best left tackle in elite.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
All those guys were those All those guys were seventh
round picks, right.

Speaker 5 (03:48):
I Mean you look at most team seventh round picks
and you'd be like, I've never heard of any of
those guys anything.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Never heard of any of those guys.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
I mean, bo Allen was a big part of that
first Super Bowl team, as was as was Jalen Mills.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
You know, like that's that's impressive.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
When you lay it down there, the way that they've
done it, you could see kind of the proof in
the pudding and with the guys that have emerged from there,
just in the I mean, Ques Watkins was a six
round pick right right, and.

Speaker 5 (04:10):
You know, like lasted in the league.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Last lasted in the league.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Interesting and again, like you said two especially, it becomes
a luxury when you already have a roster that's contending
and competing.

Speaker 5 (04:23):
It helps, for sure, you could look at least you have.
When I have most of my starters pretty well set,
I can look maybe a year ahead and develop guys.
The developing guys is a lot harder now that used
to be. I mean, Steelers were the poster boys of it,
where James Harrison can't get on the field and Clark Kig,
I mean all those dudes, like you have a Kevin
Greens in front of me or you know what I mean,
Like it was always boy, this is a really good prospect,

(04:47):
but the guys ahead of me, especially on defense, are
too good now. The flip side to that is and
I see both sides, and I this year the Steelers
kind of took the opposite approach, and they often do
six and seventh round. Give me a core special teamer
that I think will make the team and last for

(05:07):
his rookie contract. There's a big time special teamer. And
if he turns into a backup safety in the process, great.
A lot of safeties, a lot of linebackers, a lot
of people that can tackle.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
You know, Tyler Metakevich was one of those guys.

Speaker 5 (05:19):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, Like I was a fan, and I
really feel bad for Watts last year's pick. I really
wanted to see him this year and I thought he
had both you know, he could be a special teamer,
but he has starter trades to right. So I just
think that a lot of people, and I think analytics
have something to do with it, are re examining over

(05:40):
the last couple of years, what do we do with
those late, late picks, because very few of them have
good careers, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
But that's why we highlight the Antonio Browns and the
Tom Brice and even someone who had a Brett Keezel
type career is a seventh round.

Speaker 5 (05:55):
Pick phenomenal pick.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
Right, And then I guess the question would be, you know, Matt,
where's sort of dividing line, where do you expect, absolutely
expect to get starters through to the first three rounds?
Fourth round kind of tipping?

Speaker 5 (06:11):
I mean, I think I think every GM would be
really happy to get three starters out of a draft,
know you, no matter how you do it, I mean, well,
if you if you're one of those where teams are
three first round picks, I thought, right the case. But
I mean, if you can average two and a half
to three starters per draft, you're gonna have a good team.
You know, maybe your quarterback away or whatever, but you're
gonna have a core roster. That's cause you're gonna pick

(06:34):
up another in free agency. Every year. You're gonna lose
a couple in free agency, and some of them are
gonna last ten years. Two or three doesn't seem like much.
But even when you look through the Steeler drafts, like
we've done this a few times, like look at their
last twenty drafts. You could do it with any team.
So many of the picks really aren't that profitable. I
mean most are misses. And yes, hit or missus is

(06:55):
too strong a word.

Speaker 4 (06:56):
It would be interesting to talk to Kevin Colbert about
his drafty back in the early you know you're talking
about you know, so if you're looking at fourth round
and beyond, trying to get value and trying to get starters,
and it seemed like every single year, Yeah, are there
going to be some team some guys that don't make it? Yes,
but would you trade those for Aaron Smith, Clark Haagan's

(07:19):
like the Shay Townsend, Ike Taylor, Brett Keesl and even
like a Chucky Yakobe, you know what, had a good career.
You know, you mentioned obviously Antonio Browns as a sixth
round pick, but I think you would, I think as
a general manager you would.

Speaker 6 (07:35):
You would take that.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
If you're gonna roll the dice a few times and
a couple of them crap out, but one of them
winds up being Aaron Smith, it's worth it, right, that
gives you a fourth starter in that in that uh,
in that draft, and one who's who's got his you
know the name in this Deelers Hall of Fame. Yeah, right, So, uh,
it is an interesting I think it's a fascinating way
to go. And look, I think that you know, as

(07:59):
we're as we're looking at the you know drafts at
Omar Cohn is at I mean, you know, Nick Herbig
and Mason McCormick and guys you're starting to get in
his fourth round and later, You're right, I would have
been very interested. You know, we stood out in these
fields watching Ryan Wats last year, and you know, I
was really intrigued getting a lot of looks, you know,
a lot of coaching early on, and then like growing rapidly. Yeah,

(08:21):
to the point where in La Trobe, you know, he
wasn't the guy being singled out for, Hey, you gotta
do this, you gotta do that. He was just the
guy out there playing and looking.

Speaker 5 (08:29):
Good, size, speed, jakes, you know, good tester, big program.
I thought he might be a starter one day, or
you know, really go from special team er to dime
back to you know, your second safety opposite Menca or
something like that.

Speaker 6 (08:45):
Back to your.

Speaker 5 (08:45):
Original question about rounds, I think that's very position specific.
Like if I take a third or fourth round safety
or running back, he has to be a starter. I
mean positions that are plentiful. If mid round picks are
going to be at least twos or three, fourth round

(09:07):
running back has to be a starter. It has to
be a rotation. I mean, he's not gonna beat out Saquon,
but I mean, you know, like if this, I mean
Caleb Johnson's three, and he's looking at their starter. If
they waited one more round, he'd be right in the mix.
But you're not gonna let get it left tackle in
the third and fourth round. Get their starters unless they're
real development guys or injured or small school. I mean

(09:30):
they have two red flags, right, you know. And quarterbacks.
What's crazy about quarterbacks? Now, this is a whole different conversation.
Is here's here's a crazy staff for you. Mike Sando
put this out. Of all the quarterbacks in the first
round that were drafted twenty or later spots where playoff
teams existed, pick ittt was twenty. By the way, only

(09:53):
three have made it since twenty twenty or since in
the two thousands. It's Aaron rodd Since two thousands, it's
Aaron Rodgers.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
Russell Wilson. No first round, oh, just first round.

Speaker 5 (10:03):
The first rounders picked twenty or later have a massive frustrate, massive.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
Like it looked like the van Zels of the world,
Like it doesn't look good.

Speaker 5 (10:11):
For Jackson Dart he hasn't done anything, he has anything wrong.
But the only three that have made it since two
thousand are Aaron Rodgers who sat behind far forever, Jordan
Love who sat behind Aaron Rodgers right forever, and Lamar Jackson, who.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
Had sometime behind Joe Flacco.

Speaker 5 (10:30):
Frankly, I just think that there was a awful stereotype
that he's not a quarterback right in the league. He
was just stupid with him. They're the only hits from
twenty to thirty two at the quarterback position.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
In twenty five years, not in two years, not in
five years, right, twenty five years.

Speaker 5 (10:46):
So people are like, I mean, and it doesn't mean
you can't get one, but like Steel should use the
first round pick on dart or Sanders. Probably isn't gonna work,
you know this year at twenty one, right, I would
have given me Harmon.

Speaker 4 (11:00):
I think if I was given two bits of information,
I would not know what to make of the fact that, Okay,
that's on the one hand, I think that's fascinating. On
the other hand, Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott his contract, right,
you have a better success rate drafting guys later than
you do.

Speaker 5 (11:20):
And there's some I don't know, so fewer chips in
the in the mix too. I would be turning down
an offensive tackle a twenty second, you know, the things
you can't get.

Speaker 4 (11:28):
I wouldn't know what to make of that. I don't
know what to make of that information. So because everybody
is scouting these guys so closely.

Speaker 5 (11:35):
Yeah, and I think that maybe Will Howard hits, you know,
maybe we'll have maybe he.

Speaker 6 (11:39):
Has just as good a chance as Kenny Pickett.

Speaker 5 (11:41):
He probably from where he probably does, which is insane
just from draft position.

Speaker 6 (11:47):
Just took the raw statistics, threw the names out. That's
crazy to me.

Speaker 5 (11:51):
And there's a ton of misses obviously in rounds four
or five.

Speaker 6 (11:55):
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, Ola.

Speaker 5 (11:57):
Khan is not right, you know, I mean there's those guys.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
But but.

Speaker 5 (12:04):
But the investments so much less. I mean, what you're
what you're not taking in the first round to take
Kenny Pickett frankly is Harmon or Broderick Jones or my Mananu.
I mean positions you can't get difference makers at premium

(12:26):
positions just open you get those dudes. And that's a
really hard way to live. You don't want to be
that team that has to take a quarterback at twenty
three or whatever. And even like Josh Allen they traded
up for or like Mahomes, Mahomes went to a playoff team.
I mean, the Chiefs won a playoff game that year.

(12:46):
They trade up get him mid mid first round. You know,
he could goes to a good team. You know, even
though that they were in.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
The playoffs drafted Josh Josh Allen, Right, right.

Speaker 5 (12:56):
I mean even though that they're you know, their teams
earned picks in the twenties, the quarterbacks don't last that
long that turn out to be difference makers.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
And then people people who are difference makers, as you mentioned,
are like, I don't want to say ready available there
in the twenties, but certainly you like the guys that
are drafted in that twenty to thirty two range every year.

Speaker 5 (13:19):
I mean, I want to go back because I wasn't
sure I was right on you.

Speaker 3 (13:22):
You look at at the pick at year.

Speaker 5 (13:23):
No, the Sando thing about the quarterbacks drafted, because it's
even more extreme than I thought. This is the exact
thing that Sando put out. And Sando's great in the
salary cap era, okay, which goes back to nineteen ninety.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
Three, Holy cow, when young Leslie was in diapers.

Speaker 5 (13:40):
Right, there were fifteen quarterbacks taken after pick nineteen, which
is the playoff team picks. Only three have hit, Only
three have signed long term extensions. Are Hit and their
love Rogers and Lamar, which are weird instances.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
I mean, guys, you mentioned there's exceptions. Two were with
the same franchise that is on it that way and
the other was just a miss.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Was just a bad perception that this guy can't do
what he did at the Heisman level in college.

Speaker 5 (14:08):
And frankly, if Lamar came out this year, he would
not have lasted to thirty one. I mean he had
been the first thing of the draft, right, yeah, yeah.
I think there was flat out racism involved and stereotypical
stuff that the Ravens were, and the Ravens even passed
on with their first pick. I mean, so so king
are real quick. I mean, I know you're having a picture.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
For everybody at home, justing his coffee all over the table,
the swamp going on. He did a nice quiet exit
of putting his headset down though and going and get
you can't throw them down.

Speaker 5 (14:38):
But back to that real quick. On those those three
quarterbacks that hit from pick twenty on, I was actually wrong.
This goes back to nineteen ninety three. Wow, two thousand
salary cap. Since there's been a salary cap in the league,
Reggie White going from the Eagles to the Packers, only
three have really hit and picks twenty three thirty two.

(15:01):
I mean, that's it's too much of a sample size
to be like, oh, I'll just get my quarterback at twenty.

Speaker 4 (15:07):
Two, right, right, and how many and and then again
and they all sat in Green Bay basically, how many
top twenties. What's the percentage of hit rate? You know
for all that you know, Tony Easton and guys that
have gone high Wilson.

Speaker 6 (15:22):
Right, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, we have to go back,
go back to Tony.

Speaker 5 (15:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (15:25):
I don't know why. Early nineties maybe.

Speaker 5 (15:27):
People talked about that Trevor Lawrence draft like it was
one of the best quarterbacks ever, you know, it was
him and Wilson and Fields and Lance. Right, none of
them are out of the woods j R. Mat Jones,
right right, there are none of those dudes are out
of the woods. Yeah, for real low bust, right or
real there's a very high bust rate, but the best
ones get drafted really high.

Speaker 4 (15:49):
And then Lamar is a kind of an exception and
then you and you know, to state the obvious, you
have to have them, you know, just them. To me,
it's a little like pitching and base Why did we
draft these high school The draft rate on high school
pitchers is terrible. Well, yeah, but there are a few
wall stars out there. You know what I mean, you
don't have him, You aren't you aren't gonna win. Yeah,

(16:11):
and so it's the same thing with a quarterback position.
But you know, it is a it is an interesting
trade off. I mean, you are gambling. So for example,
if this Steelers don't draft Kenny Pickett and and somebody
must have said, look, we think he's got a chance
to be above average, I don't think you can. I
don't think you should draft any quarterback high who you
don't think has an opportunity to be an above average starter.

Speaker 5 (16:34):
Because Dave Kingman at the plate, you have to try
to hit a Grand Slam every time.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
Up right, you can't win without without an above average
quarterback at the very least that's your starting point.

Speaker 6 (16:43):
Correct.

Speaker 5 (16:44):
I'm actually gonna take a step further and this is
gonna be really relevant when we start talking about next
year's draft. And this was, frankly my problem with the
picket pick at the time was his ceilings on high enough. Right,
even if he hits and he becomes an above average starter,
that's not good enough. I'm I'm only after superheroes, right,
I'm trying to hit a Grand Slam with no one

(17:06):
on base, right, I mean because I get to beat
Lamar and Mahomes and Allen and Burrow. You know, like
Anthony Richardson might not ever be anything, but I at
least get it because there's a world where he's amazing, right,
because the best combine tester ever and has superhuman traits.

Speaker 6 (17:24):
Yeah, it's a narrower path if you're Kenny Pickett.

Speaker 5 (17:27):
And if I miss on them, frankly, drafting Picket didn't
hurt them that bad, Right, you can move on. I mean,
so if the Colts miss on Richardson, they'll take another one, right,
And if you get Mahomes, that changes the whole world.

Speaker 6 (17:39):
Ye.

Speaker 5 (17:39):
One other thing I'm going to throw about this quarterback
conversation is you mentioned, you know, all the day three
guys that have hit the Dax and the Purties. I mean,
Brady's in his own strategy, right, I mean right, but
look at the but even like the path, there's a
philosophy out there that you should draft a quarterback every

(18:00):
year even when you don't need one. And that's you know,
Will Howard might be that guy who knows and if
he isn't, who cares he disappears. You take it No.
One next year. But even during like that FARV you know,
Rogers waits for FARV love rates for Rogers. But in
that meantime where Rogers is winn or Farv's winning MVPs
and Rogers winning MVPs, they drafted Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell.

(18:24):
They they added a lot of quarterbacks that never played
for them that turned out to be really good players. Yeah,
you know, even like during the Brady Euro they drafted
Garoppolo and guys like that. I mean that Jacoby Brissette
that ended up having good careers. Matt Castle, right, right right,
I mean it was a seventh round pick, you know.
I mean taking quarterback on day three doesn't ever hurt you, right,

(18:46):
you know what I mean, and it might hit big,
you know, It's it's more than a lottery pick.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
There's actually a short there's something that I want to
piggyback off of what you just said there, but we
got to get to break.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
I don't want to short change it. On the other side.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
We will continue this conversation when we return as practice
rolls along. About fifty minutes or so from now, we
will be joined by a Pittsburgh Steeler after practice as
well too, so.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
Don't go anywhere.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
Rob King, Matt Williamson, West Yulers special edition of the
Drive here at OTA's Day five on Steelers Nation Radio
in the Steelers Audio Network.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
This is the Drive with Dale, Lolly and Matt Williamson
on your twenty four to seven home of the Black
and goldr Steelers Nation Radio.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Rolling along here practice number five of this OTA period
for your Pittsburgh Steelers. They will have number six tomorrow
break for the rest of the week, and then we
will be back next week for Capital m Mandatory Mini Camp,
which will once again be on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday.
West Schuler, Matt Williamson and Rob King hanging out with

(19:55):
us here kind enough to join us the King in
the Castle as our guide. Dale getting some much needed
and I think deserved recovery time. You talked a little
bit Matt there at the end, and I wanted to
circle back to this about the volume of I think
late round Day three quarterbacks that we've seen without as
many in that like late day two, early day three rounds. Right,

(20:20):
So this past year, you know, Dylan Gabriel was taken
in the third round. Jaylen Millo as well to nobody
in the fourth round, just won in the fifth round
in Shador Sanders and then you had that run start
in the sixth round. The year before that was another
one of those five first round quarterback years, right, Caleb Williams,
Jaden Daniels, Drake May, Michael Pennox, and JJ McCarthy all

(20:42):
go in the first round, and then you don't have
a quarterback tacking again until the fifth round, one hundred
and thirty some picks later. Do you think that like
and there's there's I mean just in twenty twenty three,
a few years ago, there were a couple second rounders
and third rounders. But it feels it feels like we
used to see more and more second, third, even early

(21:02):
fourth rounders than we are now.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
Why do you think that's the case.

Speaker 5 (21:07):
Because I think people are swinging big because if you
have rare traits, you're going early, and you're going earlier
than ever. And last year's draft was a great example.
Like I did not see Pennix or Nicks going in
the first half of round one. I thought maybe they
would sneak in at the end of a bad team
that traded back in or something like that. They go
in the top sixteen or whatever, you know. I mean,

(21:29):
six quarterbacks go early. I think the league's smarter than
ever with that stuff that we don't want. We can
find the Rudolph's and Howard, yeah, you know what I mean,
but we can't find them a homes. So we're gonna
take cracks at anyone that could possibly be in that stratosphere.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
But you're ease off anybody else.

Speaker 5 (21:47):
You're one hundred percent right. The day two quarterbacks are
barely a thing anymore. I mean we've seen some, but
there it's been a while, like Kaepernick, car Garoppolo, Dalton,
but that's like ten to fifteen years ago. I mean
there's not I mean, Hurts is one of the only
round two starters in the league. There's just not many cars.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
Gone as right, right, I think he was the only
career and all that.

Speaker 5 (22:11):
Right, but I mean day two quarterbacks, if you're good
enough to be a starter, when.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
You go super well this rule maybe right, right, he
goes early on day two.

Speaker 5 (22:21):
They trade up for him. They wanted to move up
to the quarter pick. Okay, you know there's a couple
of those, and not many of them hit either, I mean,
and it's not much different than really twenty to thirty
two twenty to thirty you could take can really extend
it to twenty to like order.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
You know, if you think there's a shot there, you'd
rather trade up early on day two than trade into
the back end of the first round.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
That makes more sense.

Speaker 5 (22:42):
But guess but the reality is the starter's probably already
gone by then. You know, you're probably not gonna find
one at that point. There's too much of a need
to someone else traded up because there is that that
thought that we're a bad team. We're in the first round.
We're gonna take our tackle now, and then we'll take
the quarterback. You know, the Levis pick the early second

(23:05):
It almost never works out that the quarterback ends up hitting. Yeah,
it doesn't.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
And that's also, you know, part of the reason why we.

Speaker 5 (23:12):
They may stick in the league for a while and
be okay and a lot of cracks.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
But that's I think that's also to why when it's
for the same reason do we highlight the extreme examples
of the Abs and the tom Brady's of the world.
It's the same reason why we do it with Russell
Wilson and Jalen Hurts and guys like that too, because
it is just it's such an exception.

Speaker 5 (23:29):
To the rule. Sure, and Wilson was what twelve years ago, you.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
Know, Carr was was a decade and eleven.

Speaker 5 (23:35):
Twelve years ago, right, I mean there's there's a lot
of Levice's and drew Locks and those type of dudes
that they got some traits maybe they'll hit. And you
can tell yourself that story that I'll take this guy
with a thirty eighth pick and I'm a bad team
because I need a quarterback and he's got a big
arm but probably doesn't have enough, you know. I mean,

(23:57):
people aren't using those picks on quarterbacks because otherwise that
they're they're more willing to use even an earlier one,
you know.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
Hmm, Okay, one more, one more for you.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
In this kind of round of conversation and draft strategy
and all these things that we've been talking about here,
we know quarterback is obviously the number one position that
you're willing to take a risk to, I don't know,
to reach, right if you want to use a lack
of a better term, to go after one.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Of those guys that you think might be a unicorn. Yeah,
what's the second off exactly? Okay, I thought that that
would be the answer.

Speaker 5 (24:27):
But I mean D lineman two. But there's more of them,
more edge rushers, there's more edge in d tackle and
the yeah, they're true. There's just horrible material on the planet.
It's definitely left tackle. And this is going to sound
negative in some ways it is, but good for him.
If Dan Moore, who everyone listening knows what exactly Dan
Moore is. If Dan Moore is worth twenty million a

(24:51):
year and yields you a third round compic, he's the great.
That just shows about how how valuable.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
Absolutely as a fourth, third or fourth round pick. I
believe correct who was a who was a solid NFL
starter for for four years.

Speaker 5 (25:11):
If the fact that he's making twenty, if he's making
a really good receiver.

Speaker 3 (25:16):
We can ascertain money the XEL defensive Player of the
Year exactly.

Speaker 5 (25:19):
That's a great, great way of putting it. I mean,
if if he's as valuable as one of the better
defensive players in the league, or a top linebacker, or
more valuable than any running back or any tight end
or you know, a high end receiver not Jamar Chase,
sure you have to take them high. I mean, the
economics of it all.

Speaker 2 (25:37):
Are really really important and would he gives me a
lot of year option as well too.

Speaker 5 (25:42):
Yeah, which gives me a lot of hope for the
Steelers big picture. I mean, Omar will be the first
to tell you he doesn't have a heavy scouting background,
but he is a heavy financial background. And and today
and it's on. Actually he took a tackle with his
first two picks because those guys don't there, they don't exist.
You know, you's another.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
You're not gonna go get those guys on the free
agent market, right and if you are, you're gonna absolutely
break your bank to do so.

Speaker 5 (26:05):
We could rewind to the last trade deadline, the trade
deadline before that, the next trade deadline. There might be
a mediocre or slash bad starting tackle that maybe you
could get at the trade deadline. Maybe. And it's one.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
But like a Trent Williams almost never moved teams. That's
such a rare exception. Joe Thomas, who was great, played
on a terrible team. Never any thoughts or conversations about.

Speaker 5 (26:31):
Him moving nowhere else. I'm not going He's not going anywhere,
right right right, I'm not I'm locking him up forever.
But at my point, the trade deadline. You can always
get receivers.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
I mean a Marii Cooper Adams.

Speaker 5 (26:44):
Every year there's gonna be four or five name receivers
that are in your fantasy league that get that are available.
There'll be a couple running backs, There'll be most positions.
There probably won't be a tackle. If you're short at
the trade dead I always seen a tackle. To make
a run, you get them. You have to draft them
in the second round, even though you go to a
fourth round grade.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
On even a team who's struggling and like in theory,
might be willing to part ways with a guy like that.
They're gonna say, yeah, but if we do that, we're
gonna get our quarterback killed for the rest of the season.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
And we're not trying to get our quarterback killed for
the rest of the season.

Speaker 5 (27:12):
Contracts up after the year, I'll let them walk like
Dan Moore didn't get a third round pick for him,
you know, I mean, it's they don't exist. And again
they're getting drafted very high too, as they should. Yeah,
it's a very scarce position. O line in general is
becoming more and more scarce, and.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
That's one of the things you and I now I mean,
I'm going into my eighth year of doing Steelers Nation Radio,
Steelers Audio Network stuff, and that's one of the things
that I've picked up on you from over the years
and the time that we spend in these having these
larger picture conversations, not just the weekend week out reacting
to the games and previewing the games. I think like

(27:50):
right there with quarterbacks as well too. Offensive linemen, particularly tackles,
It's like the demand is much greater than the supply.

Speaker 5 (27:57):
Then by a thousand, there's not enough of them.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
Would you say that that's probably every position on the
offensive line or just.

Speaker 5 (28:03):
Getting more and more so, I mean, o linemen in
general are very scarce. And this is a really long conversation,
but I've been on this soapbox for ten years that
I think one of the problems the league has, or
a huge theme, is the defensive linemen are just way
better and way more talented than the offensive lineman and.

Speaker 3 (28:22):
The freak like athletes are playing on that side of
the floor.

Speaker 5 (28:26):
Oh man, I mean, every team has a few. The
Steelers have a great group of them. But I mean
I've been using this example like, oh, you see that
edge rusher over there. That's a make o shark. The
other one is a tiger. That three technique is a
grizzly bear. Yes, that nose tackle is a rhinoceros. And

(28:50):
you have to block all of those and you just
stole their babies, and they hate you and they want
to destroy your life. That's what being an offensive lineman
is in today's NFL. I mean, just watch a combine.
All the edge gushers are now running four or fives
the less you know it used to be. Boy he
broke five. That's pretty good. You know, he has forty
inch vertical And then all the D linemen are crazy long.

(29:13):
I mean, look at Harmon. I mean, like, these guys
are way different than the old linemen. Aren't big fat
guys anymore, but they're not half the athletes that the
Velociraptors are on the D.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
Line, the TJ. Watts and the Miles Garretts and the
Max Crosby.

Speaker 5 (29:26):
It's a problem the league has deep down. But what
are they gonna do about it? I mean they're so
holding becomes a little more legal, you know, things like that,
it'll make it a little fairer. But I really think
that discrepancy is the biggest discrepancy in the whole league
is what position is better than the ones they go
up against? Is D line's way better than O line?

Speaker 6 (29:47):
And it's a fascinating.

Speaker 4 (29:50):
Another fascinating discussion for me because, like you know, when
you go we talked about this from a schematic standpoint, right,
So you want to have if you're the Steers, you
better be able to go against the Ravens and you
better be able to go against the Bengals. You better
have personnel that can do both. Well, you know, in
an ideal world, right, the Bengals maybe force you into

(30:11):
lighter boxes and lighter personnel and that sort of stuff.
Well what if they don't, you know, what if you're
coming at him with their heavy stuff. Now, all of
a sudden, you know that if you have a tight end,
for example, who's more of an h back type because
he's a receiver, now he's got to go against a big,
heavy guy that might just blow him up and shove.

Speaker 6 (30:26):
Him into the backfield.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Right.

Speaker 6 (30:28):
So, so yeah, you're right, and that that comes more
than ever. That comes down to those.

Speaker 4 (30:33):
Five guys in front of the quarterback, right, those are
the guys that are going to be facing different types
of personnel.

Speaker 5 (30:39):
Yea, all the time. I mean, you know, it goes
back to like Bama and Georgia and the dude, Like
I bring a lot of stories from when I was
next door. The hardest thing for us to recruit next
door over defensive tackles because there's really a class that
are absolute freaks. I mean they are super you know,
thirty five inch arms, six five, three hundred and ten

(31:01):
pounds and they all go to Georgia or Ohio State, right,
and they don't get a pick, you know, so you
have to scheme around it. And then they get two
or three of them and they say, why don't you
play left tackle? And he turns into Orlando Pace right
in the first pick in the draft. You know what
I mean, Like, we'll take a super freakd tackle because
we have too many of them and turn them into
an easy first round pick left tackle.

Speaker 6 (31:21):
You know.

Speaker 5 (31:21):
So there's just not many of those humans. You don't
see those guys walking around the mall. You might see
someone that looks like a corner or running back walking
around the mall.

Speaker 4 (31:28):
Yeah, it's interesting. When I was working up in Syracuse
and Georgia, Leone and Paul Pascalonia, Paul Pascal, and he
was the coach Georgia of the one offensive coorda and
then became the defensive coordator later. They were big on
taking guys, getting those tweener guys.

Speaker 6 (31:42):
So you know, you were too.

Speaker 4 (31:42):
You're going to recruit it just called them body type guys, right,
So you're going to recruit a four to six, you know,
four six' five. Corner, well that's not fast enough to
play To alabama At. Georgia but if you in those
days put on fifteen pounds right outside linebacker right, now
that four to sixty five plays really, well or you're a,
safety those things play.

Speaker 6 (32:03):
Well, robie you.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
Can't you.

Speaker 6 (32:05):
Can't you can't eat your way up to a, defense
you know WHAT i.

Speaker 4 (32:07):
Mean that's probably the one sort of position where you you,
know you can go from outside linebacker to D i
don't know how you're from the, tackle you sort of.

Speaker 5 (32:15):
Can you. Know we tried this, too is we would
call them body type. Guys and it was basically anyone
that was like six three and a half or bigger
or taller two forty or. Heavier and you gotta remember
these dudes are, seventeen you, know so if we could
bring four of those dudes in a recruiting. CLASS a
lot of them are basketball, players so they stayed. Leaner

(32:37):
they weren't trying to get to three hundred or. Whatever
and year, one every one of, them we're gonna red shirt.
Them we're gonna feed him eighty four stakes a, day,
right and he's always going to do his. Lift and
then the next, year his mom's not even gonna recognize.
Him he'll be two sixty. Five and you, know he
was a tight. End he thought he was a pass
catcher in high school and he was coming in to
be a tight. End but right now he's a power

(32:58):
D N and then year two he's two seventy five
and he's a three technique, right and then maybe year
three he's a left, tackle a two ninety, Five but
he was an athlete. First you, know Like Buddy moid
learns so much From Buddy morris next, door and he's
still The cardinals strength, coach but he's a pit. LEGEND i,
mean he had he. Did he Had marino And stepmosky
and all those. Dudes and we made so many mistakes

(33:20):
on offensive linemen because we'd get the three hundred and
thirty pound guy that didn't move well and trim him
down to get to be three, ten and he'd always
be like marbleized, meat never gets strong. Enough give me
the guy that's, given the guy that's two seventy, five
And i'll get him to and he'll be a. Monster
not the guy that's three thirty and. Flabby and you

(33:42):
know we GOT i got trim twenty pounds off him
and he hates the staremaster and you, know like, right
so we would make that mistake with give me the
big dude that leans on people in high school and smashes.
Him BUT i can't do that Against Virginia.

Speaker 6 (33:56):
Tech, RIGHT i mean the other part of that process all.

Speaker 5 (33:58):
The body type, guys and he can't be athletes that
were basketball players or volleyball. Players and we'll ball them.
Up maybe they stay at tight, end maybe they become
a blocking tight, end maybe they're left, tackle but there
probably could be a D. M they could maybe be
a three. Technique and again you have them for five
years and year one you might put fifteen pounds a.
MONTH i mean these are eighteen year old, boys, right
they change, quick oh for.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Sure you, know and they got that unlimited meal playing,
right no.

Speaker 5 (34:22):
Doubt and you're looking at mom and dad and Like
dad's a big, dude, Right mom's five. Eleven and you Know.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
I've talked To. Scout you looked at looked at. Them you,
know they were like. There their thing was look at
the mom's. Feet if your mom has big, feet.

Speaker 5 (34:35):
Most people think mom's more. IMPORTANT i have no. Idea
it might be an old wives tale.

Speaker 6 (34:39):
Too it might be an old wives so BUT i
MEAN i was.

Speaker 5 (34:40):
Also told redheads get hurt too. Much oh.

Speaker 4 (34:46):
Man SO i think the other thing is too is
that you know a lot of times as a, recruiter
you'll probably tell that kid you, know, yeah well you
know you get a shot at tight, end knowing like
it's when in baseball and the drive to, Guy, sure
we're gonna let this kid play play, outfield then, pitch
but deep down you know this guy's a. Pitcher right
but but but we're gonna sign, him and he's gonna

(35:07):
be happy because he's gonna get tight.

Speaker 6 (35:09):
End and maybe maybe they run he goes into tight
end room In dame one and then uh and they.

Speaker 4 (35:13):
Usually figure it out mid tight end six, right, yeah right,
right you're saying maybe that that's the line thing is That.

Speaker 5 (35:20):
I'm way worse at these drills than the five ahead of,
me AND i know. It my coach is telling me
it and he shows me on. Tape But i'm bigger
than them, too, Right And i'm a pretty good. Blocker and,
boy left tackles make a lot of.

Speaker 6 (35:31):
Money they.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
No, doubt they certainly, do and they deserve.

Speaker 5 (35:36):
It you, know another other distance we're talking about. IT
i know we've got to. Move but another thing we
would do along those lines is we would bring in
like five running backs in a recruiting class because they
were ninety chance the best player on their team in high.
School two of them are going to go to the.
Linebacker one of them is gonna end up being a
really good running, back so we should always have a

(35:57):
good right, back you know WHAT i. Mean one of
them is going to Transferm one of them might be
an undersized guy and turns into a big. Receiver you,
know like they were really good football. Players they have
a feel for the. Game there's a lot of spots on.
Defense they might be a strong. Safety if he's a
two hundred pounds running back that runs, really really, well
he's definitely has a vision he's a good football player

(36:19):
and will always be good at running, back and we'll
find other spots for those. Dudes LIKE i go on
on about the, stuff AND i, think really, funny this
thing is. Fascinating but THE, u when they were THE,
u they would take big. RECEIVERS i thought this was.
Insane they would take six, four two d and twenty
pound receivers and eventually tournament defensive. Ends right that were

(36:39):
Von miller off the? Edge, Right, yeah like you talk
about a wide out turn if they had the temperament for.
It some of those guys don't want to get blocked or.
Tackle but if you're a tough guy that's an extreme
athlete coming off the, edge it's a four star recruit,
receiver right right.

Speaker 4 (36:55):
RIGHT i also wonder about the specialization if that will affect.
Recruiting so IF i call, correctly And i'm pretty Sure
i'm correct on. This one of the things that Got
Russ grimm a scholarship At pitt was somebody went and
saw him played. Basketball russ grim saw, better look at
the feet on this, guy look at the way he's.
Moving let's take a shot at him and recruit him
and get him to The hall Of. Fame That's Bill,

(37:16):
one that's the Old Bill.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
Nunn.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Right his big secret he when he reinvented scouting was
going to the dances on campus at night because he
wanted to see the big football players and how they
were moving when they were trying to dance with their.

Speaker 5 (37:27):
Dates and he also didn't want the wallflower sitting in the.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Corner he also didn't want the guy who's shy and
doesn't talk to. Anybody that's so.

Speaker 5 (37:35):
Funny school dances were a lot bigger in the seventies
and sixties and stuff like that. Too but you learned
a lot about a dude, there you. Know, hey and,
RIGHT i mean Like Darrell reeves was the best basketball
player In. Pittsburgh, Right like his basketball player stuff, Was oh,
YEAH i, mean IF i didn't watch his, football it'd
be like he'd be a good, corner, right IF i
only watched his basketball.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
TAPE i think something similar happened When Ohio state Offered Malie.
Cooker you guys Remember Milie. Cooker when they offered him At.
Newcastle i'm pretty sure it was after a basketball, game,
okay because they saw they had seen him play. Football
came his senior year to watch him. Play newcastle went
like thirty eight no his senior year and won the state.
Championship and he was the driving force of. That. Yeah
AND i think it was literally like right after a

(38:14):
basketball game That Urban meyer was at In, newcastle he was, like,
hey we got a scholarship offer for.

Speaker 5 (38:18):
You and you know this. WELL i mean you played
a lot of. HOOPS i mean you can really see
a player's athletic temperament on a basketball, court no. Doubt
there's no, helmet there a lot of. Communication does this
point guard take the game? Over you, know does he
have that? MENTALITY i want that. Guy you can really
tell a, competitiveness ball, skills you, know tight, ends can they?

(38:40):
REBOUND i mean there's a lot of. Correlation. Yep. Wrestlers
we talked About Zach frasier. Yesterday we wanted every wrestler
we could get for the. Trenches. Yep they thought football
practice was. EASY i mean every one of them can
use their. Hands they're tough as could. Be they're in ridiculous.
SHAPE i mean that's a great starting. Point they ever
put a helmet on in their, life you.

Speaker 4 (38:59):
Know the way bad, combination you. Know So i'm somebody
who played pickup basketball three to five days a week
for probably thirty. YEARS i, MEAN i just played a
ton of Pickup but, boy remember everyone to while wrestler
would come out like If i'm playing at why she
was playing pick up, BASKETBALL a wrestler come out and be,
like oh, no if you took. Me but he'd get really, low,

(39:20):
right really, low and then and then he'd like charge at,
you you, know and all of a, sudden like his
head is hitting you in the. Ab to, Me you're, like,
dude that's a foul.

Speaker 6 (39:27):
Man come, on he's shooting at your exactly exactly and
his shoulders.

Speaker 5 (39:31):
Going he never gets.

Speaker 6 (39:34):
Tired, no, no, right, yeah that's you have to be
super human to be able.

Speaker 5 (39:41):
To do wrestling. Practices oh my, Goodness.

Speaker 6 (39:44):
Grace we did this thing in gym class in high
school where you had to try to wrestle your way.

Speaker 4 (39:48):
Through you started on all. Fours you only did it
a couple of times a. Year you started on all,
fours and there was like towels on either.

Speaker 6 (39:53):
End you had to.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
Run had two, teams so there's like maybe ten or
twelve guys on each, team and you had to wrestle
your way through pentagon and then pin the next guy
and ever you, know your team working together and then
try to get the. TOWEL i don't think we, EVER
i don't THINK i Think jim class was over before.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
And we could just be, yash go, wrestle go wrestle
with one of your buddies for thirty, seconds, right breath
you are. Exactly that's the OLD i forget who it,
Was Troy loney maybe or one of those old penguins
enforcers used. To someone was, like, well why is the you,
know reporter sometime was like the is there any science
behind the five minute major for? Fighting you, know why
is it not a double? Minor why is it a

(40:28):
five minute? Major AND i think it Was Troy looney, said,
well because we need that long to catch our. Breath
after after that's another one boxing my.

Speaker 4 (40:37):
Moving around while somebody weakens your legs with punch after
punch your kids, incredible.

Speaker 5 (40:44):
Incredible and then those wrestlers are, like AND i don't
have to make, weight, RIGHT i don't have to drop
eight pounds in the.

Speaker 4 (40:51):
Sauna and that's change for the guys in high school
back in, today wearing those, suits eating an, apples spitting it,
out spitting out what they were.

Speaker 6 (40:57):
Eating i'm, like you're not getting you realized you're when
you're sitting it.

Speaker 5 (41:00):
Out and THEN i don't have to do that before game, day,
right LIKE i can actually like sleep and.

Speaker 4 (41:07):
Eat they've done they've done away with that by the,
way to a lot of it because it's just, unhealthy you.
Know but but your, POINT i, mean those those guys
in the offensive line that know how to use, leverage
know how to use their hands like A Zach fraser.

Speaker 5 (41:20):
Type leverage run. Shape it's a good, start, man, right you, know,
yeah it's a good. Start that's Like Alan, villanueva he
used to tell. Us he's like WHEN i was enlisted
in playing, football the easiest two hour of my.

Speaker 6 (41:32):
Day was right by.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Far you.

Speaker 5 (41:35):
Know that's like a. Vacation that's that's all wrestlers look
at it compared to wrestling practice. It they look around
like all of these people standing in a. Round they
do something for three, seconds and then you standing around
for a couple of.

Speaker 3 (41:47):
Minutes you got to get to another break. Here we'll
have more on the other.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Side closed down this, hour final hour of the program
coming up before too much. Longer all the moving and
shaking that's happening down here on the south. Side it's
a spec of The Drive West, Shuler Matt, Williamson Rob
king here On Steelers Nation radio on The Steelers Audio.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Network this is The drive With Dale lolly And Matt
williams sision on your twenty four to Seven home of
The black AND. Goldnr Steelers Nation.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
Radio final segment of this second.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Hour we will be, joined, oh probably about fifteen minutes
or so from now By Nick herbig of Course steelers
pass rusher. Specialists that we were just talking a little
bit about those kind of different roles between A gayleaham
And Jack. Sawyer it would be good to have him
on entering obviously his third year in The black And.
Gold we have just a couple of minutes to get
our clock back on. Schedule but, gentlemen in the midst

(42:50):
of that last segment or, so we have Your Pittsburgh
steelers twenty twenty five training camp, Schedule.

Speaker 5 (42:56):
Okay official and really answer so we.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Can i'll go home later today and block off Our
julys and Our august and everything that's going. On the
twenty third will Be Players Report, Day, Thursday july twenty,
Fourth the first practice moved back to the traditional afternoon
one fifty five slot this, year as remember last year
it was the earlier morning. Practices this year the majority

(43:22):
of them back to the traditional one to fifty five
start Time, Thursday, Friday Saturday. Sunday that ramp up period
for The steelers there the acclamation period that will be you,
know in just shells and helmets and shorts and that
kind of. Thing and Then, Monday july twenty, eighth the day.
Off tuesday the twenty, ninth they really hit the ground.
Running that is the big Week, Tuesday, Wednesday, thursday all

(43:43):
open to the. Public padded Practices, Friday august first seven
pm Latrob Memorial stadium For friday night, lights and then
Back saturday And sunday for practices on campus once. Again
so that's, one, two, three, four, five six straight day
of practice with again That friday night lights and then
and then the turnaround On.

Speaker 5 (44:04):
Saturday those first five or the acclamation, period the acclimation,
period AND i think the real kind of foot on
the gas period there as well.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
Too and then In august it's a little bit broken.
Up you practice for a couple of, days day, off
and then of course the team, uh and myself And
kinger as well to On, Friday august, eighth will travel
To Jackson bill to play that preseason game there On
saturday to. Ninth Sunday august, tenth the day, off you,
know for travel and recovery after the, game and then
the final week of camp will Be, Monday august eleventh and.

(44:33):
Twelfth those will be the last practices open to the,
public because, gentlemen we will be having joint practices with
The Tampa Bay buccaneers officially announced on this schedule as well,
too but those will be closed to the.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Public those practice With Tampa.

Speaker 5 (44:49):
Bay there is a lot of EXTRA i mean at,
that and we talked about that a little.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Bit, yes you can. Talk, yeah we'll do a little
bit more of. That we'll get ready For nick Her
big all these things when we. Return on the other,
side it is a special edition of The Drive One
More hour To Go here on day five Of OTA's
from The South side On Steelers Nation radio on The
Steelers Audio.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
Network