5. AA Cultishness, Sober Living Corruption + Spirituality in Action

Howdy! This week nadine is back with Skylar. They pull back the layers on AA and sober living to talk about the corruption, cultishness, and failed business moves by Bill and Bob themselves. It's not about trashing these recovery support systems, but rather to shine a light on things that could be shifted for the better, to thoughtfully critique a flawed yet life-changing system, plus how to spot the good and gravitate towards that. Then they end on how spirituality in action really looks.

Come for the critiques, stay for the message.

*We are not experts, these are solely our humble opinions.

---

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Music: "Nouveaux" by Lunareh

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
They wanted to write a book to help other people in quoting
from the article, to help promote their program for
combating the disease of alcoholism and to attract
investors for a for profit chainof detox centers.
That's the thing you don't hear about is they wanted to do this
thing to help other people and also to get cash out.

(00:34):
Hey, you little sweet potato pie.
Welcome back to Alternative Dose.
I'm Nadine, and I'm so glad thatyou're here.
I'm really excited for you to hear today's conversation with
Skyler, A fellow sober alumni. We cover how corrupt our sober
living was and later in the episode we talk about the
cultishness that is a A, not to mention the failed business

(00:57):
attempt by the founders themselves.
Stick around for how to make thebest of both recovery systems
and for some heartfelt encouragement, welcome to
Alternative Dose. Today I'm joined with Skyler.
Will you introduce yourself? Just who you are, how we know
each other Loosely in your opinion?

(01:20):
Yeah, OK. Oh, I like that.
We can see if they match up. I am Skyler.
I have been sober and involved in 12 step stuff for a little
over six years. I met you through we went to the
same sober living and that's kind of I think like I think we

(01:44):
may be interacted a couple timesthere, but they're always very
staunch about hey, guys don't mix with girls and you know,
respect that. So I don't know, that's my
recollection of it. Is there anything else you want
me to say about myself? No, that's good.
Also, I did want to. I already forgot something I
wanted to say. I want to lead with in this

(02:05):
episode, when we're talking about the word sober, we mean
complete abstinence. I know in other episodes I've
had other conversations with people where that word takes on
a different definition, but in this episode, just upfront, it
means abstinence, recovery and sobriety.

(02:27):
But yeah, that's all that I remember too.
I will say to add to that, I remember you being someone who
was like ahead and had quote UN quote, someone I don't because I
came in after you, I think maybea year or two after you.
So I don't know if you were aware of this, but the people in

(02:50):
charge would point to people in phase three and you're like,
look to them like look to these individuals, you want to kind of
follow their path versus some other individuals they point
out. Whether that's a good thing that
they did or not, I don't know, but that's how I was introduced
to you in a way. OK, OK, yeah, you're right.

(03:11):
The weird kind of different time, which one was.
I know, I'm just kidding. I think I've kicked the drift.
Oh, I do want to let everyone know that we're going to be
covering some heady topics. I think it's fun.
We're going to be talking about our sober living experiences and
how that was. We're going to define sober
living versus other recovery support systems and what the

(03:35):
differences are and the benefitsand drawbacks of sober living.
We're also going to go over 12 set program, specifically a, a,
the one that we operated out of and Skyler still operates out of
and the benefits of it, the drawbacks and kind of the nuance
with toxic things that happen. And then the last one was

(03:59):
spirituality and how it looks today.
I think so, yeah. All right, cool, cool, cool,
cool. What was the reason that made
you go into sober living? I was in treatment rehab, so
like an actual inpatient facility and at that point I had
really like I feel lame because I'm going to use probably like

(04:22):
program talk, but it's just my experience.
I'd really given up and surrendered to like, I have no
clue what I'm doing and I need help.
And I kind of rode that wave of just telling me what to do and
I'll do it. Probably the first full year of
sobriety. But so anyway, I was in rehab
and some of the guys there were talking about sober living this

(04:43):
and that, and I didn't know whatit was, but I was looking at
options. So I had one semester left at
school. I was going to Ohio University
and I knew like, all right, I dowant to not drink and do drugs
anymore. If I go back to school in
Athens, which is for anyone who doesn't know, it's a notorious
party school slash town. It's super awesome.

(05:06):
But if I go back there, dude, I'm fucked.
You know, my parents co-pay or deductible or whatever that got
me through treatment, it's just going to waste.
I need to do something. And I that's what made me think
about it was like, I want to continue doing this and that's
what led me to it. Did you say that was your first

(05:26):
time in rehab? Rehab.
Yeah. As of right now, I'm one and
done, so to speak. But yeah, so I was like
completely blind. I didn't know anything about
recovery or treatment. My uncle is a meth addict.
He's in recovery now, but my momhad helped him get sober when he

(05:47):
was ready, just in arranging rehab and sober living and
stuff. So she knew a little bit.
So I kind of tell her like, yo, can you help me with this?
And she took care of me because I'm a baby.
That's awesome. That's actually really different
than my story, but similar. You said that you were willing
to do whatever you were being told.

(06:10):
I did get to that point. So I was forced into sobriety by
the court system. Essentially I got a felony.
So I was in ILC for that treatment in lieu of conviction.
It's a program that you can do with the level 5 felony, so you
can get it expunged when it's your first offense, your first

(06:32):
drug offense. So I was in that by violated
that by getting a DUI and then Iwas in talking with my PO and
counsellor and I just happened to say I might go to sober
living and once I said that it was done I had to.
Do it. There's no might about it.
They're like, oh, good idea. Yeah, and my great plan was to
show up and be there for a monthand move out and say I never

(06:57):
moved out and just lie and scam the system.
That's awesome. Yeah, yeah.
How long did you actually end upthere?
It's sober living, yeah. Almost two years, yeah.
Yeah, OK, cool. Same.
No, that's what actually. So I was like, it's so weird to
try to recap this in a way that's interesting and linear,

(07:21):
but I had done this like my realone of my last rock bottoms.
I was in LA on a school program through Ohio University.
And then I came back to Ohio andwent to rehab.
But I was actually like, I'm going to graduate from college.
I only have a semester left and then I'm just going to move back
to LA and I was like, I'm going to be here for maybe four months
Max, and I was there for two, 2 1/2 years.

(07:42):
Yeah, yeah, it got me. Thankfully.
It got me though, yeah. For sure.
Yeah. But having said that, how is
your perspective of your sober living experience changed since
you've moved out? Honestly the first month was
really weird. Sober living, but it became one

(08:06):
of the most fun times of my life.
Like in hindsight, it was so dude.
Like we would go just do weird stuff like go egg houses and
cars and like get a flaming bag of poop once.
Just all sorts of stupid. This is not what you're supposed
to do when you're sober stuff. But just a lot of honestly, it

(08:31):
was seriously some of the most fun I've ever had.
But I don't know if my perspective, my perspective on
some of the people I was there with has changed a lot.
Some of the people that I was like really close with.
Sober living is such a weird environment.
So when I moved in, I shared a room with six or with five other

(08:54):
guys. There's six of us in there and
there were three bunk beds. And if you're like a new guy,
I've never been to jail, but it sounds like this is kind of the
jail system. Like the new guy has to sleep on
the top bunk. I can't confirm or deny that,
but I had to sleep on the top bunk.
And that was like, for whatever reason, kind of like, oh, dude,
dude, you're on the top bunk. That sucks.

(09:14):
It's like, yeah, that three extra feet up that ladder is
really whatever in, in context. My one of our high school
football coaches called our community slow, white and
polite. And that's like, yeah, that's
kind of, I'm from a real whatever nice community, quote
UN quote. And like it's very, a lot of the

(09:37):
people I was encountering had completely different
backgrounds, had like done time in jail.
Meanwhile, I'm a college kid whojust drinks too much and likes
drugs. And it was such a jarring
experience to be around all these people with different and
not jarring in a bad way, but just like learning about real
life, these people with different backgrounds.
Anyway, we're crammed into this room like sardines and there's

(09:59):
two other rooms in the house like that.
And on top of that, you're living on top of all these
people, but also you have to go.We had to go to 512 step
meetings a week or something like that on top of attending 9
hours of Group A week. So that's kind of, in my
experience, what it was. It was really structured and

(10:19):
extremely cramped. What else?
Yeah, and obviously it was a drug and alcohol free zone, I
think it was. They did.
Did they do? I don't know if they did this
all the time, but I feel like atone point they do random drug
screenings and I think that's common for other sober livings
as well, that if you live there,you just have to sign off on

(10:42):
that. Yeah, they would.
They do random drug screenings and the level.
So there were three phases. There's phase one, which is new
guys like you're under lock and key, phase two where you get a
little more freedom and you moveinto a different house where you
maybe share a room only with twoother people.
And then phase three, it was like you're basically just

(11:04):
renting to live better. There's minimal requirements to
be there. But yeah, the number of drug
tests and like things you had todo with change as you move
through the phases, but the phases were kind of like they
had certain requirements you hadto meet, but it kind of felt
like a lot of it was just sticking around and not cracking
rules, you know what I mean? What do you mean?

(11:28):
I mean like to progress from onephase to the other, they would
say certain there were certain 12 step requirements.
You had to be on Step 4 and you had to have a sponsor.
Oh no, but it was more just rulebased for their their rules.
Yeah, it was a lot more fluid than that, where it's like, hey,
you haven't caused any problems and you've been here for six
months and you've always paid rent, so congratulations, you

(11:49):
get a little more space. Yeah, the rhyme and reason of
the all of that never made senseto me.
My perspective has shifted a lot.
And one thing that hasn't, though, is how corrupt they can
be. I will say that because the
process of that, you're kind of talking about the phases in the
payment. So at the sober, I don't know if

(12:11):
this is all sober livings and sober livings are different from
halfway houses because halfway houses you don't have the added
structure. So when we're talking about
having to the requirements for group, halfway houses don't have
that. You kind of just live there,
right? Yeah, that's my one friend lives
in a halfway house and his roommate was drinking and using

(12:33):
meth for three months and nothing happened to him because
they weren't, yeah, doing anything.
So exactly so there's a difference.
There is, yeah. That one's outwardly corrupt in
a different way. Yeah, totally.
Like I was like, dude, why don'tyou just tell the people you
rent from? He's like, I don't know, that's
not my problem. Oh my goodness, where we were

(12:57):
at, one of my biggest issues with it, even when I was there
was the level of corrupt. It was specifically with the
payment. And I still don't understand the
insurance part in the rent. Do you know what I'm talking
about and do you have an answer?I, I should have an answer, but

(13:17):
all I know is you pay kind of a lot for rent to live in a room
with five other people. And granted, a lot of these
people are fresh out of treatment and from they got into
treatment from like the streets or something, you know, and they
don't have any means of income and they're like, all right, you
got to find a job and they'll help you do that and stuff.

(13:38):
But they would charge you a lot of money for rent and be like,
this covers your program fees. But when you think about it, the
insurance covers and by program fees they meant your groups and
stuff. But it's like, wait a minute,
isn't that what my insurance is for?
Yeah, that's I have not given that much thought.
Part of my understanding is thatlegitimately some of that money

(13:59):
is used to scholarship those wholiterally can't afford it
otherwise or didn't have insurance.
So that's where some of the money goes.
The other money is to pay the bills.
So one of the things about the sober living aspect that can be
kind of, I don't know, I'm just upsetting.

(14:20):
It's upsetting is that the dynamics, and I guess I think
would say power dynamics, even with males who are not, they're
not providers. What are they workers?
No. What were their roles?
They were like supervisors. Supervisors to the women, you
know there's a lot of favoritism.

(14:43):
I don't know Again, I can't speak to other sober livings,
but if the ones that are structure like the one we were
at, I would look for if there's favoritism happening if you want
to go there or not. You know, if we're, if we're
talking in terms of yeah, what to look out for if you're
curious about going to a. I I think that happens

(15:07):
everywhere or I can't say that definitively, but I've heard
stories from other people in therooms of some of the things that
happened at their sober livings and I know I definitely it's
like politics. So you said it's like favorites,
and I know I definitely benefited from a lot of that and

(15:28):
engaged in some of it. You know, I don't think like to
the detriment of others, but just like keep these guys off my
back and get myself some slack. But that's part of the
corruption too that you're talking about.
Yeah, it is. No, I it 100% is.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, well, this is the thing.
I played into it. I didn't even mean to, and I

(15:49):
played into it. One time I accidentally left my
mail that I had opened in one ofthe supervisors home on their
counter and they looked at it. They must have looked at it
happened to be a car payment amount.
And then all of a sudden they'rehanding me my mail and then
texting me a couple hours later.Like hey if you want free rent

(16:10):
we can give you free rent if youdo this.
I was the only person getting free rent on that campus for a
year. Bro, that's crazy.
I was, dude. I was going to say like they'd
let me stay out later, like sleep over somewhere.
Like that's fucking nuts. No, it I didn't do that on
purpose. I was so confused.

(16:31):
Like I did not leave my mail out, but that was the thing.
And I think this person also knew that I knew about him and
another woman at that place. I will say that.
So I think it was a little like,OK, if he thinks I know
something, I'll play into it right now.
Yeah, it's like, what are you supposed to do?
Yeah, but free rent for a year and people were like, where were

(16:55):
the phase three people who were given the position or house
manager? Yeah, yeah, they were getting
$200 off their rent. Or people like yourself like
stay out after curfew or whatnot.
Yeah, dude, I would. I I don't like the word
sponsored just because I've heard so many people use it

(17:17):
egotistically. And maybe this is like virtue
signaling, I don't care. But I think it's lame.
I know so many people who wear it like such a badge of honor.
But like, I sponsored a work with a couple of guys there who
are having problems with money and I'm like, dude, you just got
to play the game a little bit. Just be cool to them, be upfront
with them, let them know what's going on.
And I can't speak to those guys as finances, but I was like,

(17:38):
dude, there is a way to make this work.
And like, as long as you're openand communicate, I wasn't like
advising them to be slimy. I'm just like, dude, if you talk
to these guys, they'll work. With you.
Well, yeah, but that's the thingtoo.
They're being slimy because theyshouldn't be charging that much
money, especially to people who are paying with their insurance
already. That's double payment.

(18:00):
Exactly. And I think some people there
like some other clients or patients or whatever, I think
the term is dual diagnosis, but had a lot more going on beyond.
This is not like a whole different danger.
I think some people there, and Ithink of it now as some of the
people that I interacted with who I had little patience for
something, I'm like, oh, now lether reflect.

(18:21):
That person clearly had something else going on beyond
addiction and things like that, whether it's mental health or
learning disabilities or something like that.
And it's not they get mistreatedby like fellow clients, things
like that, or become like the butt of the joke.
And it's unfortunately one of those things where it's like,

(18:43):
only with Ajax, I recognize I'm like, oh, damn, dude.
You know, we kind of messed withthat guy a lot, but he had a
different battle to face, you know what I mean?
Yeah, I absolutely do. I was thinking about that
earlier today, actually, not only in the sober living
context. I was thinking about in a, a
just people who have added layers And Speaking of the word

(19:05):
sponsor, that's how I was thinking about him.
Like how do you, how are sponsors supposed to actually
help people who have these addedlayers and you don't even know?
And if you get a hard ass sponsor, that's like buy the
book. That's got to be really fucking
hard for someone who's like, I don't know, autistic or, you

(19:26):
know, whatever the case may be. Dude, yes, I can think of this
one guy that I'm working with now and a guy one of my friends
works with who like it's taken me a while to understand and get
to know them and be like, oh, like there is a lot more here
going on than just like this individual really enjoys crack,

(19:47):
you know what I mean? And it's tough.
It's really humbling once I acknowledge that and recognize
that. But it's like kind of hard to
get to because I'm impatient. I'm kind of a jerk.
I don't know, sorry, aside, but no, like I wish I could have
that grace and understanding forpeople all the time, but there
are people like that. And you're right, there's some

(20:08):
dude by one of my old sponsors. I did not like this guy that
much. I was having serious anxiety
problems. I wasn't having like panic
attacks, but I was not functioning well.
And really struggling and I saw based on my therapist
recommendation, the therapist I'd known at that point for like
2 years referred me to a psychiatrist who prescribed me

(20:29):
hydroxyzine. Are you familiar with
hydroxyzine? No.
It's like a low dose form of Benadryl.
Yeah, it's literally like an allergy pill.
But he's like, yo, if your baseline is up here, it's OK to
take something like this to helpyou just chill out and relax.
And I'm admittedly like a spaz about that kind of stuff, about

(20:49):
using medication like that. But I told my sponsor about it
and he's like, it sounds like you have some more stub work to
do and that you don't need to besedated.
When I told them, they gave me and I was like, in my head, I'm
like, dude, you sell elevator security systems.
What the fuck do you know about treating, You know, anxiety,

(21:14):
depression, things like that. Yeah, wow.
OK, well, first of all, you're not a jerk, I would say.
I would say, you know, probably your limits and that's OK and we
all can practice being more patient.
But it's also a good thing to write recognize within yourself
like what you can take on. Otherwise it's a dis surface to
the other person, you know. Thank you and yourselves.

(21:37):
But aside from that, too, that'sa kind of a hard case to be in.
And I think it's a great exampleactually about this, like
understanding that people need different levels of care.
And I think in the context of sober living, where I think it
should be more understood by thesupervisors and the people in

(21:59):
charge when folks need more carebecause you're with
professionals technically. So they should not be
encouraging, I don't know, bad behaviors and joking with
people. And like, these individuals who
do need more care do tend to become the butt of the joke.
So I think in a sober living setting, it should.

(22:21):
It's, it really pisses me off actually, that it fucking
happens. Yeah, because they're
professionals and a, a, it's sadtoo, but I understand it because
you're dealing with people who aren't professionals and that's
it. That's a problem sometimes,
clearly. That's an interesting point too

(22:42):
about sober living. These are professionals and I
think about the qualifications of some of the people that were
house managers or supervisors there.
And it's like, yo, you've been sober for nine months.
True, and they're not very qualified at all.
Yeah. And it's, I don't mean to fault
them or anything, but it's kind of yeah.
I wish that there was more qualification to at least

(23:06):
identify if someone is a good fit, whether it's for a role or
for a house. Like hey, they need a higher
level of care, but also it's like they're that much care and
help out there for people to get.
Is it readily available to wheresomeone has other options?
No, they're not as available. That's right.
And yeah, do you mean more qualifications for the workers?

(23:32):
I guess it goes both ways, but Iwas thinking more qualification
in qualifying of potential clients.
Can we meet their level of care?I worked at a treatment facility
for a while and had the whole illusion of professionalism
shattered in that world because it's, hey, this person's got
Medicaid, they've got this health problem.

(23:53):
Oh, we can't match that level ofcare, but hey, this person's got
a premium Anthem policy. They have the same health
problem. Guess what?
Suddenly we can handle that level of care sort of thing.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
I don't know, that's just a general gripe of the healthcare
system as it is. No, but it's an important thing
to talk about and note because it's a thing.

(24:15):
I thought you were meaning aboutthe qualifications for people
who get hired because that's where I was more leaning towards
that they need to be hiring people who have either more time
or they need to be individuals who are actively working a
program themselves or seeking out therapy themselves.

(24:39):
And that needs to be checked because it's they're getting a
lot of even with the best intentions.
I know some of the caseworkers who are great people but
overloaded. They have way too many clients
and they don't have an outlet themselves.
And these people often have ninemonths of recovery who get hired
or a year, and then they're getting burnt out when they

(25:01):
still need to be working a program and doing all of these
things for themselves that they're now trying to guide
people who what have a day sober, sometimes a week.
Yeah, absolutely. And that's where I started with
that thought was like more qualified people.
But again, I guess kind of the inverse, what I said earlier is

(25:21):
I don't know how many people areclamoring to be a caseworker and
I don't know how much supply there is there to where you can
hold out for someone and they don't pay.
Those jobs do not pay well either.
No, they don't. So it's like someone with a
doctorate or something's not going to want to make $15.00 an
hour to work like 70 hours a week.

(25:44):
Yeah. It's complicated.
It is, but I would still say that with all of the intricacies
of it, I would. I think it's a good thing like
it is. It is not for the weak, so we're
living is not for the weak. You have to persevere.

(26:07):
I think that you have to be someone who's definitely
involved if you're going to makeit work.
That sounds so cliche, but literally if you're going to
make it work, you have to do it.That's yeah.
That was going to be my take away because no matter where you
are, you have to have self respect.
If you're in a bad situation, then you have to be able to
leave the situation. But nothing's going to happen

(26:29):
unless you do the work and you put in the effort.
And a big part of that is getting involved outside of the
sober living community in the actual 12 step community or some
sort of support community in some community independent of
where you live. Because you think about it's an
echo chamber, like you're takingadvice from people that have
just as much clean time as you. It's like sometimes you can

(26:51):
learn anything from anyone, but you know, you need to diversify
your support is what I would say.
Yes, I agree. Yeah, any sort of, I guess to me
that kind of comes to accountability because I didn't.
I was literally just going to meetings because I had to go to
meetings. And then one day someone who

(27:12):
someone was giving their lead and they said one thing that
made my ears perk up and I thought it was the same only I
had done. And I was like, holy shit.
And that set me off of the course of getting a sponsor,
working the stabs. And that changed my life.
And that wouldn't have happened had I not gone to sober living
where I had to go to meetings. Yeah, that's so true.

(27:35):
I was going to ask, I guess it is jumping ahead, like my
relationship with the 12 step programs has changed, but it's
still a part of my life. Where do you feel?
I guess I don't really know. I get the impression you're not
really involved in 12 step stuffactively.
I don't know for sure though. But where does that sit with

(27:57):
you? Is it something you're like
happy you went through or what'sthat like for you now?
Yeah, we can move on. I think we wrapped the first one
up pretty good and this is a good transition.
I love my time in a for what it was.
I'm not active in any 12 step program at all.
I wouldn't go back either because I'm just in a place with

(28:18):
how I use plant medicine to where I'm not comfortable
speaking. And me like, hey, I'm Nadine and
I'm an alcoholic or an addict. But I'm not doing an abstinent
base program, which a lot of these 12 step programs promote
that doesn't feel honest and transparent.

(28:39):
And I want to show up that way if I'm in a space and people are
looking to me for experience, strength and hope.
But yeah, I love a A it saved mylife.
Like I remember the first time Iwas forced to go, I was, it was
after my charge. So it was before sober living.

(29:00):
I had already some exposure to it and I was just going to go.
I didn't have any connection to it.
And it wasn't until after I was at sober living and I went to, I
don't know, whatever meeting. And I just remember just
sobbing. And I probably connected to some
whatever someone shared. And you just have that moment

(29:20):
where you're like, whoa, OK, I II can do this thing.
I do belong here. It's all right.
I don't know. I don't really know how to
describe it. But I know any other person
who's had that moment within therooms like can attest to that.
Yeah, whereas for me it was a big, oh, I want to do this from,

(29:44):
oh, I have to do this. I have to get my slip signed.
Oh, my God, like I should do this.
That is an interesting moment. But other than that, I don't
really have a great answer to your question.
It would just happen like gradually where I just didn't
feel like I was getting met withthe death that I needed to be

(30:05):
met with within a program. There are certain barriers, I
think within the 12 step program, specifically a, A that
kind of stop people from taking a further step beyond the
symptoms. And it says it right in the big
book. It says this is but a symptom of

(30:25):
our, you know, problems. But people don't go beyond that.
And I think people will get complacent.
And now I'm rambling, but Yep. No, it's I agree completely.
That's where a lot of my frustration lies is with the
complacency. And I don't know, I don't want

(30:48):
to criticize anyone. Like if that works for someone,
then fantastic, that works for them.
That's great. I just don't know.
It's not the end all be all to Wellness for me.
And I get a little bothered whenpeople like, like, have you
prayed about it? I ask God for help and he gave

(31:08):
it to me. And people come in looking for
practical advice and they're like, yeah, pray about it.
It's like, how the fuck does that help me right now?
I don't want to shit on the thing and on people who are like
really down for that and are content with that.
And I think for me there is a distinction between the person

(31:28):
who is very into a A and like makes that kind of their world
and their service. And I love those people.
Like fuck, if I didn't see thosepeople early on, I don't know if
I would have continued on. Yeah.
You know what I mean? Yeah, we need those people.
I'm talking about like the specific person who becomes

(31:50):
complacent and doesn't want to do any growth and kind of is
like, well, this is it. This is the deal.
And for me, I don't even judge it.
I just, I just couldn't match itanymore.
Like I can't connect. I couldn't.
I got to a point where I couldn't connect with those
individuals enough. And I wasn't meeting individuals

(32:12):
who were interested in plant medicine and whatnot to.
So I kind of had to, I don't know, figure it out elsewhere.
Yeah. I was in it every in with the
crew there for a while who is super about like meeting makers
make it in like that seemed to be they'd say all the right

(32:33):
things and stuff, but I got the this is all my perspective.
I could be very wrong and I likely am, but that was their
thing was like this is recovery going to meetings and making
sure you know, a sponsor I had was like, yeah, I'm not going to
be able to make it to a meeting this week.
I'm only going to be able to make it to one meeting this

(32:54):
week. It's going to be a rough week.
I was like, well, that is not how I think it should be.
That should not be the source ofmy well-being and my tolerance
for other, you know, the credo they preach of like helping
others, loving others, etcetera.That should not be contingent on
me going to meetings. Meetings are super helpful and

(33:16):
important. But that to me was that's where
I kind of drew a distinction, was like, who's really doing it
and who's just kind of showing up?
Yeah, that's a good point. That's kind of how it is for
sure. Yeah, and I really am probably
annoying to hear. I don't.
I go to one meeting a week. That's because my friends go.

(33:37):
But I will constantly just talk about the importance of the
steps because it's kind of become clear to me that
intensive self work is really where the change of difference
happens. Really quick, since we're on it,
do you want to talk about the article?
Because we haven't defined what a A is.
If you want to give us a little background on what the hell

(34:00):
we're even talking about and then share that, and then we'll
go into the article and the conspiracy of it all, because I
didn't know this and you kind ofblew my mind.
I read this a few years ago, so I'm not a spokesperson for
Alcoholics Anonymous. I do not represent them

(34:21):
whatsoever. That said, let the slander
begin. Just kidding.
So Alcoholics Anonymous was founded between two men who
desperately wanted to stop drinking.
They didn't know how to do it and they were introduced by
someone because by a mutual friend because they both had a
common problem and it's kind of hard to just explain.

(34:45):
Anyway, it grew from this thing where they developed 12 steps
based off principles known from a group called the Oxford Group.
It was a Christian group that had an intensive course of
action laid out like 5 principles.
And one of the founders, Bill Wilson, used those principles
and kind of worked with them to create the 12 steps.

(35:05):
And he credits the Oxford Group at some point, like publicly.
So it's not like he totally justripped it off, but it just grew
into this giant nationwide, thenworldwide, like word of mouth
thing for Alcoholics to work together to help and stay sober.
That's the primary purpose of it, is to help other Alcoholics

(35:26):
to achieve sobriety. I don't know.
What else did you think I'm missing?
Anything. No, that's like the core of it
all for sure. Yeah, it started out of this.
Like, really? Yeah.
I think it's really cool. This like desperation of I need
to stop drinking, I'm fucking mylife up.
And this lady, Henrietta Sieberling was like, hey, I know

(35:46):
another guy who's needs to stop drinking and his fucking his
life up. And these two guys just kind of
put their heads together and found a way to stay sober.
And replicate that to literally at this point, millions of
people, yes, probably. It's total grassroots too.
It was just born out of this need and that's really cool and

(36:07):
wholesome until it's not. Do you want me to talk about the
article? Yes.
OK, so now here is the other back story of the founding of
AAI. Didn't know until earlier today.
So Doctor Bob Smith, one of the Co founders and Bill Wilson,

(36:28):
other founder, wanted to publisha book to raise awareness about
alcoholism and try to spread theword like hey, we've got this
thing figured out. It is crazy to think about this
happened in like 1935 or whatever 1933 maybe how long the
world had had like the town drugs and things like that.

(36:50):
No one could like really figure it out anyway.
They wanted to write a book to help other people in quoting
from the article to help promotetheir program for combating the
disease of alcoholism in to attract investors for a for
profit chain of detox centers. That's the thing you don't hear
about is they wanted to do this thing to help other people and

(37:12):
also to get cashed out. They like, dude, that's crazy.
It makes total sense. Like why wouldn't that be the
case? Yeah, that makes more sense than
the story that I know. Yeah, it makes more sense to the
like out of the kindness of their hearts.
Well, that's like, it's like thewhitewashing of it that, you

(37:34):
know, it's like how we all thought Christopher Columbus was
a year old, your kids. Then we're like, oh, wait a
minute. That's like the a, a equivalent.
And I'm sure there's more to it.But anyway, they got a pitch
meeting in front of potential investors, including a
Rockefeller, and we're like, Hey, give us this money so we
can start these treatment centers and help other people

(37:56):
and also make money. But the donors, the investors
were like, that's kind of going to sully the whole point of what
this is to help other people. It's very funny.
Like the people with the money, the wealthy people were like,
this could kind of spoil the whole purpose of this.
I feel like you don't hear that a lot.
Anyway, they gave them like $5000 to help them support

(38:19):
themselves and get it off the ground.
But they did not give them the money to start the for profit
treatment centers. But still, they published the
book, and it says in here that Time magazine named it one of
the most important or influential books written in
English, which is pretty incredible.
Yeah, I think it's still one of the top books sold.

(38:41):
Yeah, it definitely is. I do think this I have to Fact
Check, but I think Bill's wife did get a royalties check like
long after he died for like millions of dollars.
Good for her, actually. Yeah, I mean, good for her.
That's a crazy because you hear about the other back story with

(39:03):
Bill, Was it Bill who wanted like LSD to be part of Step 3?
But you don't hear about this whole other business side of it.
Oh yeah, it is funny because you're right.
And I know some of the questionswere about it being like cult
like, and I looked up the definition of a cult just

(39:24):
because I was like, oh, that sounds kind of harsh.
And then I looked and was like, Oh no, this actually exceeds the
definition of a cult like what it is.
Yes, OK, yes, All right. And why I think it's fascinating
the article because it's like that you shared because it's
like, would it have actually become an actual cult having a

(39:45):
for profit business? That's a random thought I had
when you sent them like whoa, this was like the blockage of an
actual cult forming. Also totally random.
There have been several a A members who have gone on to form
cults of their own. The Q Anon cult of the 70s was

(40:06):
founded by an A A member. I'm pretty sure I actually I
need to Fact Check that. That's crazy.
So dude, that's nuts because when you do hear Colt, you think
of like, what is it, Johnstown or whatever with Jim Jones where
they all drank the kool-aid and things like that.
But it turns out, at least according to Webster, that you

(40:31):
know this meets its people devoted to a common purpose.
And at times, have you ever beento Founder's Day?
No, have you? Yeah, like twice, dude.
That was so I always experiencedlike there's a lot of religion
like Christianity, overtones andAlcoholics Anonymous.

(40:51):
Even though for anyone who's curious, I will always say it's
not religious. Please have an open mind because
I want people to go and get whatever help they need.
But that was always president. But it wasn't until I went to
Founders Day. And so I like the devotion and
worship of the actual founders of A A that I was like, this is
kind of creepy and a little weird.

(41:14):
Wait, explain. And it wasn't sorry, it wasn't Q
Anon, it's Cyanon. And it was Charles, Yeah.
I read about that cult recently.I can't.
I think there was like a documentary about it.
Yo, that's off the chain. Yeah, so tell me about the
creepiness. Oh, it's.

(41:35):
I mean, it's not like. That I saw any like vigils and
candle burning and shit like that, but just people that speak
really highly and obsessively about kind of the same way like
people worship Jesus or whomeverthey worship the founders of a A
almost as if they're like they're kind of deified in a

(41:56):
way. And again, I'm speaking very
generally, but. Yeah, well, there's aspects.
So some of the things that I took in when I was in the rooms,
and maybe these were just happened to be the rooms that I
walked into at the time, but they had just floating faces of
these men, like at the head of the room somewhere.

(42:19):
And I think that's a little cultlike.
I do think it's a little cult like just some of the and it can
get clicky. I I don't know how to describe
it because it's not. It doesn't exist within every
single setting of a a, but thereare certain spaces where it like

(42:40):
it gets clicky or something. I think it's, I think it's more
of a people problem, you know what I mean?
Or maybe not, because I was thinking about that earlier.
I was kind of going through, youknow, my deep resentments
against things like a, a or evenreligion.
I was like, oh, it's more the people that I have a problem

(43:02):
with than the actual organization itself, if that
makes sense, if there can be such a distinction.
Yeah, well, it's like the peopleare either making it or.
I think about some of the people, like my current sponsor,
I really like him and his outlook on things, his outlook
on the program and his outlook on life.

(43:25):
But I kind of bitched about earlier, my previous sponsor, I
really disagreed with him on a lot of his views on the program
and his adherence to it and the way he worked it.
I mean, he's a good dude. I don't think he's causing harm
to other people, but to me, I just didn't like, I don't know,
I just didn't like the way he lived his life.

(43:46):
And it's OK. It's OK that he lives it that
way. But.
Yeah, it's good that we have options, but sometimes it can be
harsh or it can turn people away.
I guess I want to say when you're exposed to a side that
isn't that great because of the people aren't making it what
it's supposed to be about. Yes, one that's perfect.

(44:10):
That's the perfect way to put itbecause that's where I
distinguish the program and the people.
I guess it's true. Yeah, Because it's like there's
some really great people. But no, like there's I've seen
people be rude to newcomers, be rude to others.
What makes a a different? Like because OK, so you know the

(44:31):
definition of a cult. So usually there is one person
at the head of it. And like that's my issue with a
A and why it's like this nebulous thing.
I feel like there's little hierarchies within it.
But I don't know for all following Bill and Bob or are

(44:52):
we? No, yeah, dude, that's what I
was thinking about earlier. I was like, I don't.
There's nothing in place within the structure of a A, at least
in my opinion. There's totally people out there
who would gladly tell me I'm wrong.
I guess maybe I should practice that.
If you can put this at the beginning, I'm not an expert,
but there's nothing in place to make it.

(45:15):
The only thing that would prevent it from being a cult is
that there's no like there's notone leader, There's not a
president or a dictator, what have you.
And when you look at actual cults, like I don't know if it
was Johnstown, whichever 1 Jim Jones was a part of, he was the
leader, you know, synonym or whatever that one fella you were

(45:36):
talking about, or even I can't remember that guy's name, but
the leader of Scientology. Oh yeah, I don't know, but.
That's a whole different thing. Please do not conflate a A and
Scientology listeners at home. But it is structured in a way to
where there is not an authoritative leader like that.
And I think that's maybe one of the guidelines, if any, to keep

(46:01):
it from being cult like. Yeah, I think that's one of the
key elements too. One of the other elements too.
I would, I don't know for sure, but I think it's something to do
with money for some reason. Yeah, the way money is flowed,
it's or self governed or whatever.
Yeah, like self-sustaining, meaning they don't accept

(46:24):
outside contributions. I don't think they do have like
any kind and there's, I haven't studied the traditions enough to
know necessarily about that, butthat's interesting.
That could go either way though,because it's all like
self-sustaining by members. It's kind of almost like multi

(46:45):
level marketing in a way. No, it's true.
No, we can't ask for help. We need to get it from you.
Yeah, but yeah, but then you getsponsors who are good, who are
like, you don't need to give unless you absolutely can, you
know? That is the common line, and I

(47:07):
think it's true. You're more important than your
money. If you can, please give.
If not, don't worry. Yeah.
I think what sets it apart from a lot of other systems is that
there's so much good. Like the collateral damage of it
doesn't outweigh the good that prevails, I think.
There's a total net positive. I think so too.

(47:31):
And we talked about the way people use it.
But engendered throughout the entire thing is the whole notion
of take what you like and leave the rest.
Even in the big book, Bill's friend Abby says to him, like,
why don't you just choose a God of your own conception?
Just like kind of funny. There's no way he said it that
way. But that whole idea of, you
know, take what you like and leave the rest fine within this

(47:53):
what works for you and use that.Yeah.
And that's kind of what my relationship in it with it
really is like today, because ifI don't do that, I'm just going
to be pissed off and resentful and I don't know.
So what is it? What is your relationship in
action? I don't go to a lot of meetings.

(48:15):
I sponsor one person right now, but it's someone I'm friends
with and I've been friend with for at least a little over a
year by now. I haven't sponsored him since
we've been friends. And that's the whole thing about
it is people like your sponsor is not supposed to be your best
friend, this and that. I've been super tight with every
sponsor I've had and it's made every experience so much better.

(48:37):
So it really feels like a more of a bond and that's a special
thing to me. But I, dude, I honestly like, I
call my higher power God. I just really try to focus on
doing what's right for other people.

(48:59):
Like how can I be of maximum service to the people around me?
And this is I, I'm not like Christian, but just based on how
I was raised, the way I pray andworship to the God of my
understanding is totally in likea Christian way.
But what can I do to get out of the way, get myself out of the
way and be a service to help other people in like a genuine

(49:21):
way, Not just like make the coffee at a meeting, but like,
oh shit, it's 11 O clock. This person's calling me really
don't want to answer. But no one calls at 11 O clock
with good news type thing, you know, just even little things
like that. Just trying to get out of the
way and answer and I, I lost my train of thought, but I guess

(49:41):
it's kind of like really trying to live it.
That's what it is. Not keep caught up in bullshit
politics of so and so doesn't recite the Lord's Prayer when we
do. But it's like, yeah, but how can
I make sure I'm decent to peopleat work today, especially the
people I wanted to tell the fuckoff?
And how can I make sure I'm likeactually being kind and
thoughtful to my girlfriend whenall I want is everything that I

(50:05):
want, You know, how can I do that?
And that's what I really like about my sponsor right now.
I really feel like he embodies those things well.
And he's really honest too. Like last night he was sharing
and he's like, take my advice. I'm not using it and like just
funny shit like that. And I know it's some people may
think it's like lame or whatever, but I don't again,

(50:28):
it's that net positive. And I'm trying to really live it
and like, live the exam of life.That's what it is.
Before this, I was not. I was acting like a fucking
moron doing whatever I wanted based off pure instincts run
wild. But this has given me the tool
to live and examine life. I can see how I interact with
the people around me, with myself, with the world.

(50:51):
And hopefully I can just be a decent person.
That's all I want to be, be a decent person.
And that's why I'm like, yeah, it's good to go to meetings and
hear stuff. You got to do the fucking work.
Yeah, damn, I just. Rambled so long.
No, that was good. That's beautiful.
I don't know how to lead with that.

(51:12):
That was amazing. Like truly like.
Oh well, not a lot of people. Get that all the time though,
Like it's truly, it's a good example to put out into the
world because not a lot of people get that, you know?
Dude, and that's all I want to do is give that to other people
that like want it, you know, that want it Because I'm like,

(51:34):
yo, dude, don't fucking worry about knowing if God is real or
not. If you're going to like for Step
3, it's like, dude, just think about this like, hey, I'm
committing to doing the rest of the steps and trying to live a
different way. You know what I mean?
I'm like, dude, don't worry about that shit.
Don't because some people do getreally stressed.
Like you have to have a God who's your higher power.
It's like, motherfucker, just try the steps.

(51:56):
Yeah, yeah. Because my life is so much
better, dude. Fuck, even two years ago.
I've been sober for over six years, but even two years ago I
would not have wanted to spend alot of time with my parents out
at some marsh bird watching. But last weekend I was with
them. My dad retired recently.
So they're like super gung ho into like older people stuff

(52:17):
like bird watching. Hey, I'm there already.
And I get to go with them and bepresent.
And I'm not like itching to leave.
I'm not trying to text my friends and set something up.
I got to be present and spend time with them and I got to see
some oh shit, I saw some eagles.I saw some warblers.
Oh. Yeah, I saw that bald eagle.
Yep. There was two of them.

(52:39):
It was sweet, but it's it's justmoments like that where I wish I
could impart what that feels like to somebody.
This like the life that is thereand I I attribute it to a a, but
I'm more attributed to like the step work in that like you have
living the exam of life. Yeah, damn, I don't know how to

(53:04):
leave with that. That's so good.
Oh, I'm glad you like that, because no.
Like I'm like reflecting on it. No, no, no.
It's so reflective. I'm like, wow, I need to process
that because. And I just real quick, I'm in
that position because of the 12 steps and because I went to a a
A. But it's the people.

(53:25):
I'm lucky to have people in my life that really live that way.
And it can rub off on me. Like, again, a A is the common
denominator, but it's the peoplethat I'm around.
And it takes time and effort andwillingness to find the right
people. That's so true.
Yeah. My sponsor who I had, she was
amazing, you know, but truly she's like a Yogi, amazing woman

(53:48):
who has decades of sobriety, lives a full life is act just,
you know, we connected in a different way and we bonded
beyond just surface level step work or an A, a stuff.
It was a deeper relationship andI needed that.
And had I not sought out that kind of help beyond my first

(54:10):
sponsor, I don't know where I would be at, to be honest.
It's so important to find the people and like the friends that
I had at first. It changed it an early sobriety.
I feel like it's a fucking bloodbath sometimes.
It's like a Mad Max movie. I don't know, but it's tough and

(54:31):
it. And with that being said, that's
why there is a lot of collateraldamage because we're talking
about things that are heavy and we're dealing with, yeah, just
the addiction and alcoholism. It's not easy shit.
And on top of other issues that might be there like PTSD or OCD

(54:55):
or bipolar or depression. So yeah, there's going to be a
lot of things that happen and that go wrong.
But I think overall, when we canget to a point where people are
living the message like you are,that's great.
I couldn't say anything immediately because honestly, it
makes me emotional and I don't want to cry truly.

(55:20):
Because on the last point that we're kind of going to where you
wanted to kind of talk about spirituality and where that
looks like today, my answers. Are you OK for us to go there?
Yeah, OK. Yeah, I'm listening.
Yeah. And my answer is not that great,

(55:42):
but it's true. I I wrote it down, so I'm just
going to take a look. Yeah, it's a lot of grief.
It's a lot of pain for me. It's like spirituality.
Everyone hypes it up. It's this, this is healing
thing. Let's all heal together and be
well. No, you don't know, like what's

(56:05):
happening behind closed doors. People are crying, people are
upset, people are grieving through friends that they can't
have any more a person who passed away or whatever, you
know. It's wow.
And yeah, I just feel, I guess I'll say to that too, to I just,

(56:29):
yeah, I just really want people to the take away to be that it
doesn't have to look certain waylike spirituality and action
doesn't always have to look likethis very positive, expansive
thing. Sometimes it's you're just
crying or you're upset or you'redealing with something tough or

(56:51):
you're having a difficult conversation with a parent and
you're setting a boundary. And that's what it that's what
it is. And that's OK too.
This is why I didn't want to addwhy I said we needed a funny
story or something. Because I knew what the day that
I had, I might cry. It's OK.

(57:16):
Obviously you needed to cry. Or maybe I don't know, that was
really powerful because I don't really have anything to add.
It's true. It's funny.
We see all the toxic positivity bullshit.
It's like, no, this is what healing is.
Healing is you got to face thesethings.

(57:38):
It just makes me think, there's this guy in the rooms I really
respect and I haven't talked to him in forever and he's old.
I should talk to him soon. But I've always liked his view
because he's really spiritual inlike genuinely spiritual.
And he said something about, youknow, people we identify as
Alcoholics and addicts, but likewe forget that we're people 1st
and that we're dealing with human problems.

(58:01):
On top of this, I kind of decided that I just didn't know
how to deal with life and I happen to have a predisposition
for alcoholism. So I let that ride for a while
and just fuck my shit up and continue to not learn how to
deal with life in a healthy way.But yeah, that was, and I was
talking to him. I used to journal all the time.

(58:23):
Then I stopped because I felt like it wasn't being productive.
I was spiraling a lot. And but he was like, sometimes
you just got to do it. You just got to go through it.
You just got to sit there. If it takes all night, just
write everything out. You got to work through it.
And while I don't know if it's necessarily amazing practical
advice, just the idea though, that like that's what healing

(58:45):
is. It's not what we see on the
Internet. It's like it's spirituality is
not the thing we plug into and we're just like Energizer bodies
of positivity. All the time.
It's not something that you could commodify, which that's a
whole another fucking topic. But like it's not it's
spirituality. It's not crystals up your butt
or a Wellness retreat. Like OK, crystal.

(59:05):
I I like crystals and I like some Wellness things, but to
commodify it and to also that, that's a whole nother fucking
rant. Sounds like you have an episode
topic. That's true though.
It's not like that, and it's hard work, but it's worth it.

(59:25):
Absolutely. And The thing is, is that with
all of what a A is, it's free and it does work when you work
it, and it's going to benefit you more when you find the right
people and all of that. It's going to give you more than
that Wellness routine is going to give you.

(59:46):
I can say that for sure. Yeah.
All right. I'm I'm good to move on.
I ran 1/2 marathon on Sunday. Oh, I saw.
Congrats. Thank you.
He was my third one, no big deal.
So I felt like 1.5 marathons now, but I was really like my

(01:00:09):
last two. I had gone kind of slow and I'm
a perfectionist and I'm like, dude, I got to go faster.
I'm not a small individual and I'm not a fast person either,
but I'm like, I got to improve. And this one, for whatever
reason, like the training, I didthe training well, I listen to
other people who gave me suggestions in like actually

(01:00:30):
improve my time and I'm cruising, man, cruising, about
to finish, like super close. It's in Toledo.
You finish in the university's football field.
So it's just really fun, exciting thing.
And I'm like 100 meters from thefinish and I'm sprinting and I'm
like, dude, I'm crushing this, this is amazing.
And there was a full marathon happening too.

(01:00:53):
And the full marathon and half marathon finished at the same
place, but you're divided by a gate because the trails were
different, right? So I'm running, I'm sprinting,
about to be done. And I hear some guy going go
marathon or go. And the crowd starts roaring and
getting all electric. I'm like, oh, thank you.
It's actually 1/2 marathon. Before you know it, this sweaty

(01:01:13):
white skinny dork just zooms by me to the left and finishes in
the crowds roaring and over the speaker.
They're like, now setting a new course record for the marathon.
So and so from Hudson. OH, and this like crossing the
it's like I just said really good personal time.
It ran half as much as he did inthe same amount of time.

(01:01:35):
If anyone's wondering. It's really funny.
Dude, I was just like, Oh my God, I was just pretending.
All these people were cheering for me.
I made the news. I was in the background when
they showed. Yeah, that's awesome.
I know that was just kind of like this funny, interesting
thing that happened. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, thank you.
I really appreciate your time. I did want to ask if you want to

(01:01:56):
share a piece of advice or a meeting or just some sort of
nugget to impart on the people. I don't have anything super not
generic, but the one thing I'll share that it's been important
to me and everything is you justhave to try.

(01:02:17):
You just have to work the steps.Get a sponsor, work the steps
and just please give it a try. I promise.
I know people say there's it hasto be this way.
You have to hit your knees and pray every morning this and
that. Like dude can do it however you
need to. But just get a sponsor that you
like and work the steps. I think a lot of it's super lame

(01:02:38):
and some of it's super stupid, but my life has changed for the
better and just please try. Please leave the show a five
star review. Shout out to Skyler again.
And please know we're not experts, these are just our
opinions. Can someone let me know if my

(01:03:11):
audio is getting any better or is it getting worse?