March 4, 2025 • 30 mins
Have you ever wondered why some books take off while others struggle to get noticed? It’s not just about great writing… it’s about smart marketing.
Allison Lane sat down with Dr. Mara Einstein, a marketing expert, former MTV executive, and author of “Hoodwinked: How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults,” exposing the hidden strategies brands use to influence consumers. As a professor, speaker, and media commentator, she helps people recognize and protect themselves from deceptive marketing tactics.
She reveals how big brands use cult-like tactics to influence consumers and how authors can apply similar strategies to grow their platforms. If you’re looking to increase visibility, attract the right readers, and build a lasting brand, this episode is packed with must-know insights.
🎧 Tune in now to transform your book marketing strategy.
What You’ll Learn:
- The biggest mistake authors make when trying to build their platform.
- Why traditional publishers look for more than just a great book, and how to meet their expectations.
- How to develop a personal brand that makes you unforgettable.
Resources Mentioned:
- Dr. Mara Einstein’s Book: Hoodwinked: How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults https://bookshop.org/a/55773/9781493086153
- Follow Dr. Mara on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drmaraeinstein
- Allison’s Free Annual Content Calendar: https://www.lanelit.com/content
Timestamps
[00:03:06] The #1 mistake authors make when marketing their books.
[00:12:23] The influencer strategy that’s changing book promotion.
[00:19:32] The branding shift that changed everything for Dr. Mara.
[00:26:05] How she gained 25K TikTok followers in six months.
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Have questions or insights? Email me at allison@lanelit.com. Let’s keep the conversation going. Tune in now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp5vMSvXbdg
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Mara (00:00):
We are not living in an attention economy, which is
(00:03):
what economists would say,right?
That people make money off ourattention.
What I argue is we live in ananxiety economy.
It's not enough to get our eyesconnected to your phone.
It's to get us ginned up andenraged to a point where we
continue doom scrolling, andthen we continue to get anxious,
(00:23):
and then we push a buttonbecause that anxiety needs to be
released.
Allison (00:51):
Today, we're diving into what it really takes to go
bigger within your career.
We're going to talk to Dr.
Mara Einstein, powerhousemarketing expert, former MTV
executive, narrator of Netflix'sdocumentary, buy now, a shopping
(01:14):
conspiracy.
Author of seven books, professorof many years.
Her latest book is Hoodwinked,how marketers use the same
tactics as cults.
And that it exposes the culttactics brands are using to
(01:35):
capture our wallet and ourloyalty.
And in this book, she took adifferent approach than her
previous books, strategicallyseeking an agent and a
traditional publisher as part ofher career growth path.
(01:55):
And we're going to talk aboutHow she built her marketing
strategy, how she developed herbranding and why.
How she expanded her outreach totake her work and her message to
people who needed to know it,but she wasn't in front of them
yet.
If you're looking to scale, yourcareer or you're thinking about
(02:19):
your encore career or a careerpivot, you don't want to miss
this conversation because Dr.
Mara Einstein, she knows whatshe's doing, and she's been
methodical, and one of myfavorite clients ever.
But you know, she knows her pooand you need to know this.
(02:39):
So, without further ado, let'swelcome Dr.
Mara Einstein.
Welcome Dr.
Mara Einstein, I cannot wait toask you so many questions
because we have known each othersince a few years now when you
said, I know that I want my nextbook to be bigger and you wanted
(03:00):
it to go bigger and you wereplanning your next 20 years in
your career.
Dr. Mara (03:06):
Yeah.
Allison (03:06):
I'm going to ask you some questions about the book,
Hoodwinked.
Here it is.
Look at us, which, oh, you wentthrough so many different titles
for this book.
I love it.
And I'm going to ask you aboutyour particular challenge,
because you've written so manybooks before this one.
(03:28):
So, this is not your first rodeoand ticket to the dance.
Dr. Mara (03:33):
Right.
Allison (03:33):
Been here, done that, been a speaker, always been a
badass.
So, when it comes to the book,let me ask, because I'm sure
people are on their edge oftheir seats, pulling over in
their cars.
What is a mistake you see peoplemaking when it comes to
(03:55):
recognizing that the marketingtactics that they think they are
seeing and that are overt areactually manipulating them?
Dr. Mara (04:05):
Wow.
Okay.
So, I think one of the biggestmistakes that people make is
that they think that that theycan't be taken in.
They think that that everybodyelse can be taken in but it's
not going to happen.
And in media, we talk about thisas the third person effect,
which is you know, thatmarketing affects those people,
(04:28):
but it doesn't affect me.
And it also comes in around inthe same idea as cults and
marketers.
Target people when they're attheir most vulnerable.
So, The old marketer is going tobe able to get you to fall into
their trap when you're you'refeeling great about yourself,
(04:49):
when everything's goingwonderful in your life.
It's when you're tired, oryou're depressed, or you just
had a bad breakup with somebody,or any one of kinds of things,
that somebody, either a marketeror a cult is able to come in and
get you to believe things thatyou might not otherwise believe.
And one of the ways that youmight even think about this, a
(05:11):
simple thing, is a way you mightthink about this is that, you
know, when do you pick up yourphone and start engaging with it
after you've had a really longday?
You're really tired, you'vecooked dinner, the kids are
doing their homework, put themin bed or whatever it is, and
then you sit down and engagedwith your engage your phone.
That's when you're exhausted.
(05:33):
That's when you're least likelyleast likely to pay attention.
That's when you're most likelyto be drawn in, to the kinds of
tactics that marketers use inorder to get you to spend more
money.
Allison (05:44):
That is a wake up call for me of that's not a time to
pick up your phone.
I need a different routine.
Once I slam dunk the kids,please go to your room and don't
ransack the kitchen while I'masleep.
That's not cool.
When we were working anddeveloping your book proposal
(06:06):
and your querying strategy, Ibecame increasingly horrified as
I learned, how easily brands andcompanies are steering us this
way and that way, especiallywhen it comes to voting and
religion and what bank youchoose.
(06:27):
But also our children, becausemy daughter is 14 and she has to
have it, whatever it is.
Her shoes were not white enoughand I said, stop wiping your
shoe with your other shoe.
That's how you stop gettingdirty shoes.
(06:47):
But the kids, especially withmajor identity purchases like
clothes or universities.
One big epiphany I had, well itwasn't my epiphany, it was you
sitting me down and saying thisis actually how colleges work.
Is that colleges put our kids onemail and direct marketing mail
(07:12):
campaigns early like, 8th and9th grade?
So, I created a false emailaccount for my son, who's now a
junior in high school,
Dr. Mara (07:23):
Yep.
Allison (07:24):
And he's an athlete, and he's super fast.
I mean, that is related to beingon track in football.
Because the most expensivecolleges have the most delicious
marketing creative.
I mean, eye candy, gorgeouscollateral brochures, and those
(07:46):
are the first ones to show up.
Dr. Mara (07:49):
Right.
Allison (07:49):
So, because you told me that, I now grab things out of
the mail so that he doesn't evensee them.
Dr. Mara (07:55):
The thing is, I think that most people don't realize
is that the chief marketingofficers at colleges and
universities now come out ofcorporate backgrounds.
And so, I mean, it used to bemost of the people that existed
at the administrative level inuniversities come out of the
faculty ranks.
(08:16):
They didn't come out of PotteryBarn.
They didn't come out of GeneralMills.
And so now, because Collegeshave become so competitive, they
have to use the kind ofmarketing tactics that are used
for consumer purchases.
And so, you know, you and I havebeen around long enough that we
(08:37):
have engaged with these kinds ofthings, but our kids, yeah,
they're savvy, or they thinkthey're savvy.
But not to the same extent thatyou and I, who've been dealing
with this for a long period oftime.
And so, the other issue thathappens is that when you're
talking to adolescents inteenagers, you're talking to
people who haven't solidifiedtheir identity.
(08:58):
Never mind that their brainshaven't finished developing.
Allison (09:02):
Right.
Dr. Mara (09:02):
But they haven't solidified their identity.
The the thing that's going toget them is what is the school
that's going to say somethingabout me, not just about about
me, but it's gonna telleverybody else who I am.
Allison (09:14):
Right.
And that way you get to wearthat badge of honor of, now I am
defining who I am by the collegethat I've chosen, or not chosen.
Yup..
Dr. Mara (09:25):
And the schools don't make it any better.
I mean that, I'm not eventalking the colleges, I'm
talking about the High School.
Because the counsilors come in.
And they support the kids goingfor the higher level schools.
And then, they supporting theidea that you know, you're
allowed to wear the Swag downthe high school halls.
I think it should be banned.
I think it shouldn't be allowedthat students can wear that
(09:47):
after they get into thecolleges.
Never mind Ivy Day.
When all the kids get online andpretend they're opening up the
emails, and say, Oh, I got intothis school and I got into this
school.
I mean, the word of mouthmarketing on that, and the
school's perpetuated, is, youknow, all kinds of free
advertisements for them becauseeverybody's seeing oh, who got
in.
And the parents stand around,and everybody pretends like they
(10:10):
just opened the email.
Of course, they didn't justopened the email.
They knew they look at it to seewhether or not they got in.
And then, they make these very high end kind of
videos.
I was saying, I got into, youknow, three IVs and I missed two
IVs, but I got into a couple ofpublic IVs.
It's like, oh, it's kind ofgross.
Allison (10:29):
Yeah.
And nobody posts their, I didn'tget in video.
Dr. Mara (10:33):
Of course not.
Of course not.
Allison (10:35):
So, what's one big shift you've seen recently in
how companies are usingpsychological behaviors to drive
our behaviors.
Like now versus five years ago.
Dr. Mara (10:52):
I think probably the biggest shifts are happening
around influencers and howinfluencers work together.
Because it's not thatinfluencers can't grow because
influencers have been growing.
They've been very successful.
They've also been verysuccessful in not letting people
know that they're beingsponsored.
(11:13):
Because the FTC frankly, can'tstay on top of it.
But the other thing that'shappening and we sort of saw
this in the bro space, in termsof people like Joe Rogan have
been Shapiro they on.
And they validate each other's,audiences, right?
So, they people to othersaudiences.
The same thing is happening inthe influencer space.
(11:36):
So, one influencer was supportanother influencer who support
another influencer.
And all of the stuff sort ofmolds together to grow
everybody's audiences.
And so, while you think, oh, youknow, oh, I like both of these.
The influencers which you don'tbe get to understand is that
they're all working together toget you to buy whatever it is
that they're selling.
(11:57):
And it's become justsignificantly more coordinated
in the last five years than itwas before.
Allison (12:04):
Right.
They all went to the samemastermind six years ago and now
they go to summer camp together.
Dr. Mara (12:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Allison (12:10):
The band of brothers and they're doing like the
ultimate fighter camp justbecause it's fun.
So, yeah.
And it smells bad and you don'tknow why.
It's because it stinks.
Dr. Mara (12:22):
Right.
Allison (12:23):
That is so helpful.
I'm going to keep a lookout forthat.
Now, let's pivot to talk aboutthis book process and this path.
Dr. Mara (12:33):
Mm hmm.
Allison (12:34):
Why was it so important for you to seek an agent and a
traditional publisher for ahoodwinked versus your other
seven books were with universitypresses, and they were
unagented.
Why was it important for you andhow did that fit into your
(12:55):
bigger career strategy?
Dr. Mara (12:57):
Right.
Well, the last book that I didwasn't a university press.
It was a popular press, but itwas a small, independent spec
kind of print on demand press.
And what happened with thatbook, and this is a warning to
authors everywhere, is that theydid not produce the books that
(13:18):
went to Amazon or to bookstores.
They had a secondary press whodid that.
And so, I had a New York Timesreview of the book come out.
I will also say the book cameout just before Trump was
elected the first time.
So, I'm also in the situationnow again of Trump being elected
and him sucking all the air outof the promo space, but we'll
(13:41):
leave that for perhaps anotherquestion.
But what happened was, the bookcame out at the end of October.
At the end of November, I had aglowingly positive review in the
New York Times, right?
Right before the holiday salesseason, the book was not at
Amazon or in bookstores untilthe end of January.
(14:04):
Yeah, that starts.
Right?
So, I had no control over thefact that here I was the best
promotion you could possiblyhave.
Allison (14:12):
That's like a French kiss.
I mean, come on.
Dr. Mara (14:16):
It was devastating, it was really devastating.
And so, what I said to myselfafter that, and I thought that
was a really important book, andit was a really important book.
And Black Ops Advertising wasthe first book to explain to
people what native advertisingwas and branded content.
People didn't know what it wasback then.
Allison (14:33):
They still don't know what it is.
But that's okay, we can't do allthe things.
Dr. Mara (14:38):
So, I said, you know, look, it's a lot of work to
write a book.
Well, this book took threeyears.
It's really 30 years of work.
Everything that I am and thework that I've done over the
last 30 to 40 years is in thatbook.
So, I said I'm not writinganother book unless I work with
an agent, work with the press,with the press that's going to
(14:58):
make sure that the book getsinto stores and all of that good
stuff.
Because otherwise it's just notworth it to me.
It's just too much, it's toomuch work to do that.
Allison (15:06):
Right, because you're speaking on big stages, heading
to South by Southwest.
You started, TikTok account thatquickly lit up in fuego.
From that, you got cold calls,people reaching out to you.
Can you come and keynote our..
Dr. Mara (15:27):
Two
Allison (15:28):
abroad and two documentaries.
I mean, holy shnikes.
That is nobody has time to domore because you particularly
knew not just the operations,but you knew where you wanted to
go.
You said to me, this is my plan.
(15:49):
I'm teaching university, but I'malso a speaker.
I also travel for speaking and Iwant to do more than of that.
And so, you were making verydeliberate choices.
Now, what's a mistake?
You see academics making whenthey're trying to level up their
careers or expand outside of,you know, maybe just tenured,
(16:16):
especially after 50.
Because I feel like there's somesort of breaking point where
they've been department head
Dr. Mara (16:23):
Right.
Allison (16:24):
And they're thinking, I don't want to teach four classes
every semester for the next 20years.
Dr. Mara (16:30):
Right.
You know, I think there's been afundamental shift in academia
because of what the marketplaceis like.
The expectation is that that wewill be public figures, that we
will be public academics.
In a way that didn't necessarilyexist ten years ago.
And it's because University isneed the promotion, frankly.
(16:51):
Now, my university in which Iwon't mention, but you can look
up very easily, has reallyterrible promotion.
Really terrible promotion.
And they have not been helpfulto me at all.
So, one of the things that Iwould say about academic to
academics is you need to learnhow to be your best mouthpiece.
(17:12):
You have to learn how to promoteyourself better than anybody
else.
Because unless you're workingfor a really large academic
institution, they won't have thebandwidth to promote you.
Other than to repost the stuffthat you've already gotten for
yourself.
I would also recommend you know,trying to, and for a lot of
academics this is a difficultshift, stop trying to write.
(17:32):
I mean, for me, and this hasalways been my situation, I
never expected to go to the IvyTower, and never, ever, ever,
ever wanted to.
And my feeling is that if we'regoing to do this, we're going to
do it.
academics.
I never, ever, ever, ever, everwanted to do that.
And my feeling is, is if we'regoing to do this research and
not take it out into the world.
(17:53):
Then, you know, kind of what'sthe kind of what's point?
My point is for us to take ourunderstanding and our learning
and bring it out to people sothey can actually use it, which
is part of the reason whyfrankly I joined TikTok was that
I knew that not every body isgoing to go out and buy my book
but they should.
But not every body can affordto.
Or they might be expose to thebook and they can go to the
(18:15):
library and pick it up.
But these are ideas that a lotof people don't know about or
they've kind of heard somethingabout.
And so, to have the opportunityto engage with people in that
space that I might not meetanywhere else has been
wonderful, frankly.
Allison (18:32):
Yeah, it's been unbelievable.
One of the testimonials, one ofthe endorsements for your book,
came from someone you met.
I think I might have pointed herout to you at some point.
Like, you should be talking toher.
Dr. Mara (18:47):
Mm
Allison (18:48):
But Daniela Mastanek Young is the author of
Uncultured, which is a memoir.
And the two of you look at cultsfrom different perspectives.
But also you're a TikToker andshe's a TikToker, and you're
really speaking to the samereader, which is...
Dr. Mara (19:07):
It's very funny because people constantly say,
Are you friends with theknitting cult lady?
Allison (19:13):
You are now.
Dr. Mara (19:13):
Yes, I am.
Yes, in fact, I am.
Allison (19:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The fact that you made thatshift, what is a shift you made
in your marketing and brandingstrategy, your approach this
time compared to your previousbooks?
Dr. Mara (19:32):
I made the mistake of creating, now, now you, you have
to remember I wrote my firstbook in oh, my God 21 years ago.
2004.
And I think it was my secondbook that I made my first
website for.
And so, what happened is, everytime I wrote my new book, I
created a new website, which islike wrong So, the other thing
(19:56):
that happened too, is every timeI wrote a new book, people knew
me for the book, which is thatbook.
But I started my career being aa policy wank.
Then, I wrote a book about mediaand religion.
Then I wrote a book about causemarketing and corporate social
responsibilities.
Then, I wrote a book aboutmarketing, you know stuff
(20:17):
marketing.
So, every time another book cameout, I was like, you know, who
is this person?
So I had to take a step back andsay, okay, what is the umbrella
idea of who I am and all thework that I've done over the
last 20 years in terms of mywriting.
And so that became deceptivemarketing.
That's the, um, and it'sinteresting about the way I talk
(20:38):
about it, because I don'tnecessarily want to say I'm an
expert in deceptive marketing,because then it sounds like I'm
an expert in telling people howto do deceptive marketing.
And that's not what I want tocome across as.
But I'm an expert in helping youdetect deceptive marketing
yourself.
That's how.
Deceptive marketing and how toprotect yourself from Your
(20:59):
family, your pocketbook, yourmental health against deceptive
marketing.
And so, it also became aquestion of, is it, you know, am
I Mara Einstein?
Is it Dr.
Mara Einstein?
Is it Mara Einstein, PhD?
And so, all of my socials areDr.
D.
R.
Mara Einstein, cause the name'sso good.
Allison (21:17):
Seriously, I mean, if you have a PhD and you're not
using Doctor,
Dr. Mara (21:22):
mm hmm.
Allison (21:23):
I challenge you to send me an email at
allison@lanelit.com and tell mewhy.
Dr. Mara (21:30):
Yeah.
Allison (21:31):
Because if you are a dude, you're using doctor, even
when you're a chiropractor,which is not even a real doctor.
Sorry, chiropractors.
So, if you've earned a PhD andyou're saying, well, I don't
know, and you insist on going byyour first name.
I will flick you in the foreheadbecause you deserve it and you
(21:53):
are a doctor for the love ofPete.
Dr. Mara (21:56):
So then, on the website if I was able to say
under that umbrella ofdeception, I talk about
religion, I talk about politics,I talk about purpose washing, I
talk about education, I talkabout brand cults.
And I'm sure I'm missing one,but there's six things.
I have free downsloads forpeople if you want to go into
all of those or highereducation.
(22:17):
I guess that's the one I missed.
So if people want to understandsort of the top lines of, what
are the basic hoodwinked ideasor the basics behind the
marketing of that area?
What are the tactics in terms ofyou being hoodwinked in that
space?
And what are the things that youneed to know in order to be able
to protect yourself againstthat?
Allison (22:39):
That's perfect because you did have to rise above all
the different books.
Like you are not your book, youare the brand and your book is
one product.
And you've done such a expertjob because you are a media
marketer, and you do knowmessaging.
So, you've been able to land onthat marketing statement, that
(23:03):
brand statement of, I'm anexpert in detecting deceptive
marketing practices and helpingyou protect yourself and your
family and your pocketbook andyour mental health.
Ooh, did I nail that?
Dr. Mara (23:16):
Yeah, I also recommend though, people work with other
people in that cause even as amarketer, one of the hardest
things to do is brand yourself.
Allison (23:24):
It is.
That's why I have a job becauseno one seize themselves as the
huge big effing deal that theyare they always are thinking
like, well, you know, there's adifferent, I wouldn't call
myself an expert or whatever,and we can get into that later,
but it is boring.
(23:44):
And whoever you are, yourhumility is boring me.
So, one of the things thataspiring authors are told is
you've got to build yourplatform.
Dr. Mara (23:55):
Oh, gosh.
Allison (23:56):
What is a common myth people believe about building
their platform?
And why is it holding them back?
Let's just call a spade a spade.
Dr. Mara (24:06):
Okay.
I had people say that to me.
like, I wanted to punch this person in the face, I
really did.
And I'm not a violent personoverall.
But here I am coming with 25 to30 years of marketing
experience.
You know, I haven't with theplatform.
Because I was a little busywriting the book and you know,
having an aceademic career.
Allison (24:27):
And being a global expert.
Dr. Mara (24:28):
Right.
And you know, all that kind ofstuff.
I promise you, I can figure outhow to build the platform.
And they're like, no, no, no,no, no.
If you don't have the platform,you can't go.
I was like, shut up.
Shut up.
And so, when I found my agent,that was not a problem for her,
because she said, well, you'lldo that over time.
I said, it kind of I neverreminded me when I was pregnant
(24:49):
with my daughter.
And I had people say to me, oh,you'll never finish your PhD
because you got pregnant.
No, I will finish while I willhave my daughter and I will get
a PhD.
And yes, I did both.
Allison (25:00):
Of course, you did.
Dr. Mara (25:02):
When people tell you those kinds of things, it's a
simple excuse for them to say noto you, don't take that as a no.
And I remember this, this isreally good advice, particularly
for women.
So, I also have an MBA inaddition to a PhD.
Allison (25:16):
Of Course, you do.
Dr. Mara (25:17):
And one of the things that they taught us in
negotiations is that when menare negotiating and they hear
someone says no.
what they hear is you haven'tgotten from me what you need to
hear yet.
They don't hear no.
When women are told no, womenhear no and walk away.
(25:37):
So don't that, don't do that.
Reframe it and say, okay, youjust haven't what you need to
hear yet.
I need to get it to the point,which could be, I will have a
platform six months from now,and you should sign me in the
meantime, and I promise somebodywill get the book And I to get
the book them.
(25:59):
And seriously, I had 25, 000followers on TikTok in about six
months, six months to a year.
Allison (26:05):
Yeah.
Yeah, you really did in, thinkin three months you had 17, 000.
I was keeping track because I dothat with all of my clients.
Dr. Mara (26:13):
Yeah.
Allison (26:13):
Like, do you realize how many people are following
you?
Dr. Mara (26:16):
Yeah.
Yeah, and so now it's like at34, 000.
But it's, you know, it's notlike 100, 000 or whatever, but
it's engaged with, who then sendthe information out to us.
You know, key marketing folks,you know, in the same way we're
talking about the influencereporting, we promote each
other's work.
Yeah.
to other people and bring otherpeople in, cross platforms and I
have, you know, key marketingfolks who are promoting me on
(26:39):
LinkedIn and promoting me onInstagram.
And so we, you know, in the sameway I was talking about the
influencers promoting eachother, you know, we promote each
other's work too.
Allison (26:48):
Yeah.
Okay, we're going to pivotagain.
Dr. Mara (26:51):
Okay.
Allison (26:51):
This time turn to the left.
What's a book you love that youwant everyone to know about
right now?
And it can't be your book.
Dr. Mara (26:58):
Oh, there was one I just read that I really loved
and why can't I think of what itis?
Well, on tyranny, but that's awhole different one.
What I'm reading right now isWild Faith, by Talia Levin.
Really important forunderstanding what's going on in
terms of religion and politicsright now.
(27:20):
And one of the things that shewrites about in the book, and it
was a real like aha moment forme and you, okay, this is an aha
moment from someone who has beenstudying religion since 1995.
And what she talks about is thatwhat people don't realize is the
evangelicals and the hardcorereligious people here in the
United States, when they thinkabout the devil and Satan and
(27:44):
all, they believe it.
So, while some of us may thatbelief system, they really
believe it.
And when you believe that atthat level, that helps explain a
whole lot about what's going onin terms of our politics right
now.
Because for them, it's not justabout putting a certain person
(28:05):
in office, it's about putting acertain person in office person
in order to be able to fight adevil.
That's a whole a whole otherlevel.
Allison (28:12):
Of crazY.
IThat's a whole other level ofcrazy.
I hope that these are real.
But also, you know, I sort ofknow that they're not.
Dr. Mara (28:22):
It's not a republicans and it's not an evangelicals,
but it is like 14% or somethingof the population.
Which is enough to swing thevote.
Allison (28:31):
Holy poo.
Dr. Mara (28:31):
Yeah, no, it's, I mean, it's a shock.
It's shocking.
Allison (28:34):
Okay, two more things.
Before we call this podcastcomplete, what's one thing you
want to leave people with?
Dr. Mara (28:42):
One you don't have to spend money.
One, you don't.
And probably, you're spending alot more money than you need to,
because you are getting wrappedup into the technology
particulary, as it relates tosocial media.
Because your phone is designedin every way possible to keep
(29:03):
you connected to it, to keep youscrolling, to keep you anxious.
And one of the Key ideas that Italk about in the book is that
we are not living in anattention economy, which is what
economists would say, right?
That people make money off ourattention.
What I argue is we live in ananxiety economy.
(29:25):
It's not enough to get our eyesconnected to your phone.
It's to get us ginned up andenraged to a point where we
continue doom scrolling, andthen we continue to get anxious,
and then we push a buttonbecause that anxiety needs to be
released.
So, remember that every time yougo online, social media isn't
about giving you information.
(29:45):
Social media is about sellingadvertising.
Allison (29:49):
Great warning.
We are not living in an attention economy, which is
(00:03):
what economists would say,right?
That people make money off ourattention.
What I argue is we live in ananxiety economy.
It's not enough to get our eyesconnected to your phone.
It's to get us ginned up andenraged to a point where we
continue doom scrolling, andthen we continue to get anxious,
(00:23):
and then we push a buttonbecause that anxiety needs to be
released.
Allison (00:51):
Today, we're diving into what it really takes to go
bigger within your career.
We're going to talk to Dr.
Mara Einstein, powerhousemarketing expert, former MTV
executive, narrator of Netflix'sdocumentary, buy now, a shopping
(01:14):
conspiracy.
Author of seven books, professorof many years.
Her latest book is Hoodwinked,how marketers use the same
tactics as cults.
And that it exposes the culttactics brands are using to
(01:35):
capture our wallet and ourloyalty.
And in this book, she took adifferent approach than her
previous books, strategicallyseeking an agent and a
traditional publisher as part ofher career growth path.
(01:55):
And we're going to talk aboutHow she built her marketing
strategy, how she developed herbranding and why.
How she expanded her outreach totake her work and her message to
people who needed to know it,but she wasn't in front of them
yet.
If you're looking to scale, yourcareer or you're thinking about
(02:19):
your encore career or a careerpivot, you don't want to miss
this conversation because Dr.
Mara Einstein, she knows whatshe's doing, and she's been
methodical, and one of myfavorite clients ever.
But you know, she knows her pooand you need to know this.
(02:39):
So, without further ado, let'swelcome Dr.
Mara Einstein.
Welcome Dr.
Mara Einstein, I cannot wait toask you so many questions
because we have known each othersince a few years now when you
said, I know that I want my nextbook to be bigger and you wanted
(03:00):
it to go bigger and you wereplanning your next 20 years in
your career.
Dr. Mara (03:06):
Yeah.
Allison (03:06):
I'm going to ask you some questions about the book,
Hoodwinked.
Here it is.
Look at us, which, oh, you wentthrough so many different titles
for this book.
I love it.
And I'm going to ask you aboutyour particular challenge,
because you've written so manybooks before this one.
(03:28):
So, this is not your first rodeoand ticket to the dance.
Dr. Mara (03:33):
Right.
Allison (03:33):
Been here, done that, been a speaker, always been a
badass.
So, when it comes to the book,let me ask, because I'm sure
people are on their edge oftheir seats, pulling over in
their cars.
What is a mistake you see peoplemaking when it comes to
(03:55):
recognizing that the marketingtactics that they think they are
seeing and that are overt areactually manipulating them?
Dr. Mara (04:05):
Wow.
Okay.
So, I think one of the biggestmistakes that people make is
that they think that that theycan't be taken in.
They think that that everybodyelse can be taken in but it's
not going to happen.
And in media, we talk about thisas the third person effect,
which is you know, thatmarketing affects those people,
(04:28):
but it doesn't affect me.
And it also comes in around inthe same idea as cults and
marketers.
Target people when they're attheir most vulnerable.
So, The old marketer is going tobe able to get you to fall into
their trap when you're you'refeeling great about yourself,
(04:49):
when everything's goingwonderful in your life.
It's when you're tired, oryou're depressed, or you just
had a bad breakup with somebody,or any one of kinds of things,
that somebody, either a marketeror a cult is able to come in and
get you to believe things thatyou might not otherwise believe.
And one of the ways that youmight even think about this, a
(05:11):
simple thing, is a way you mightthink about this is that, you
know, when do you pick up yourphone and start engaging with it
after you've had a really longday?
You're really tired, you'vecooked dinner, the kids are
doing their homework, put themin bed or whatever it is, and
then you sit down and engagedwith your engage your phone.
That's when you're exhausted.
(05:33):
That's when you're least likelyleast likely to pay attention.
That's when you're most likelyto be drawn in, to the kinds of
tactics that marketers use inorder to get you to spend more
money.
Allison (05:44):
That is a wake up call for me of that's not a time to
pick up your phone.
I need a different routine.
Once I slam dunk the kids,please go to your room and don't
ransack the kitchen while I'masleep.
That's not cool.
When we were working anddeveloping your book proposal
(06:06):
and your querying strategy, Ibecame increasingly horrified as
I learned, how easily brands andcompanies are steering us this
way and that way, especiallywhen it comes to voting and
religion and what bank youchoose.
(06:27):
But also our children, becausemy daughter is 14 and she has to
have it, whatever it is.
Her shoes were not white enoughand I said, stop wiping your
shoe with your other shoe.
That's how you stop gettingdirty shoes.
(06:47):
But the kids, especially withmajor identity purchases like
clothes or universities.
One big epiphany I had, well itwasn't my epiphany, it was you
sitting me down and saying thisis actually how colleges work.
Is that colleges put our kids onemail and direct marketing mail
(07:12):
campaigns early like, 8th and9th grade?
So, I created a false emailaccount for my son, who's now a
junior in high school,
Dr. Mara (07:23):
Yep.
Allison (07:24):
And he's an athlete, and he's super fast.
I mean, that is related to beingon track in football.
Because the most expensivecolleges have the most delicious
marketing creative.
I mean, eye candy, gorgeouscollateral brochures, and those
(07:46):
are the first ones to show up.
Dr. Mara (07:49):
Right.
Allison (07:49):
So, because you told me that, I now grab things out of
the mail so that he doesn't evensee them.
Dr. Mara (07:55):
The thing is, I think that most people don't realize
is that the chief marketingofficers at colleges and
universities now come out ofcorporate backgrounds.
And so, I mean, it used to bemost of the people that existed
at the administrative level inuniversities come out of the
faculty ranks.
(08:16):
They didn't come out of PotteryBarn.
They didn't come out of GeneralMills.
And so now, because Collegeshave become so competitive, they
have to use the kind ofmarketing tactics that are used
for consumer purchases.
And so, you know, you and I havebeen around long enough that we
(08:37):
have engaged with these kinds ofthings, but our kids, yeah,
they're savvy, or they thinkthey're savvy.
But not to the same extent thatyou and I, who've been dealing
with this for a long period oftime.
And so, the other issue thathappens is that when you're
talking to adolescents inteenagers, you're talking to
people who haven't solidifiedtheir identity.
(08:58):
Never mind that their brainshaven't finished developing.
Allison (09:02):
Right.
Dr. Mara (09:02):
But they haven't solidified their identity.
The the thing that's going toget them is what is the school
that's going to say somethingabout me, not just about about
me, but it's gonna telleverybody else who I am.
Allison (09:14):
Right.
And that way you get to wearthat badge of honor of, now I am
defining who I am by the collegethat I've chosen, or not chosen.
Yup..
Dr. Mara (09:25):
And the schools don't make it any better.
I mean that, I'm not eventalking the colleges, I'm
talking about the High School.
Because the counsilors come in.
And they support the kids goingfor the higher level schools.
And then, they supporting theidea that you know, you're
allowed to wear the Swag downthe high school halls.
I think it should be banned.
I think it shouldn't be allowedthat students can wear that
(09:47):
after they get into thecolleges.
Never mind Ivy Day.
When all the kids get online andpretend they're opening up the
emails, and say, Oh, I got intothis school and I got into this
school.
I mean, the word of mouthmarketing on that, and the
school's perpetuated, is, youknow, all kinds of free
advertisements for them becauseeverybody's seeing oh, who got
in.
And the parents stand around,and everybody pretends like they
(10:10):
just opened the email.
Of course, they didn't justopened the email.
They knew they look at it to seewhether or not they got in.
And then, they make these very high end kind of
videos.
I was saying, I got into, youknow, three IVs and I missed two
IVs, but I got into a couple ofpublic IVs.
It's like, oh, it's kind ofgross.
Allison (10:29):
Yeah.
And nobody posts their, I didn'tget in video.
Dr. Mara (10:33):
Of course not.
Of course not.
Allison (10:35):
So, what's one big shift you've seen recently in
how companies are usingpsychological behaviors to drive
our behaviors.
Like now versus five years ago.
Dr. Mara (10:52):
I think probably the biggest shifts are happening
around influencers and howinfluencers work together.
Because it's not thatinfluencers can't grow because
influencers have been growing.
They've been very successful.
They've also been verysuccessful in not letting people
know that they're beingsponsored.
(11:13):
Because the FTC frankly, can'tstay on top of it.
But the other thing that'shappening and we sort of saw
this in the bro space, in termsof people like Joe Rogan have
been Shapiro they on.
And they validate each other's,audiences, right?
So, they people to othersaudiences.
The same thing is happening inthe influencer space.
(11:36):
So, one influencer was supportanother influencer who support
another influencer.
And all of the stuff sort ofmolds together to grow
everybody's audiences.
And so, while you think, oh, youknow, oh, I like both of these.
The influencers which you don'tbe get to understand is that
they're all working together toget you to buy whatever it is
that they're selling.
(11:57):
And it's become justsignificantly more coordinated
in the last five years than itwas before.
Allison (12:04):
Right.
They all went to the samemastermind six years ago and now
they go to summer camp together.
Dr. Mara (12:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Allison (12:10):
The band of brothers and they're doing like the
ultimate fighter camp justbecause it's fun.
So, yeah.
And it smells bad and you don'tknow why.
It's because it stinks.
Dr. Mara (12:22):
Right.
Allison (12:23):
That is so helpful.
I'm going to keep a lookout forthat.
Now, let's pivot to talk aboutthis book process and this path.
Dr. Mara (12:33):
Mm hmm.
Allison (12:34):
Why was it so important for you to seek an agent and a
traditional publisher for ahoodwinked versus your other
seven books were with universitypresses, and they were
unagented.
Why was it important for you andhow did that fit into your
(12:55):
bigger career strategy?
Dr. Mara (12:57):
Right.
Well, the last book that I didwasn't a university press.
It was a popular press, but itwas a small, independent spec
kind of print on demand press.
And what happened with thatbook, and this is a warning to
authors everywhere, is that theydid not produce the books that
(13:18):
went to Amazon or to bookstores.
They had a secondary press whodid that.
And so, I had a New York Timesreview of the book come out.
I will also say the book cameout just before Trump was
elected the first time.
So, I'm also in the situationnow again of Trump being elected
and him sucking all the air outof the promo space, but we'll
(13:41):
leave that for perhaps anotherquestion.
But what happened was, the bookcame out at the end of October.
At the end of November, I had aglowingly positive review in the
New York Times, right?
Right before the holiday salesseason, the book was not at
Amazon or in bookstores untilthe end of January.
(14:04):
Yeah, that starts.
Right?
So, I had no control over thefact that here I was the best
promotion you could possiblyhave.
Allison (14:12):
That's like a French kiss.
I mean, come on.
Dr. Mara (14:16):
It was devastating, it was really devastating.
And so, what I said to myselfafter that, and I thought that
was a really important book, andit was a really important book.
And Black Ops Advertising wasthe first book to explain to
people what native advertisingwas and branded content.
People didn't know what it wasback then.
Allison (14:33):
They still don't know what it is.
But that's okay, we can't do allthe things.
Dr. Mara (14:38):
So, I said, you know, look, it's a lot of work to
write a book.
Well, this book took threeyears.
It's really 30 years of work.
Everything that I am and thework that I've done over the
last 30 to 40 years is in thatbook.
So, I said I'm not writinganother book unless I work with
an agent, work with the press,with the press that's going to
(14:58):
make sure that the book getsinto stores and all of that good
stuff.
Because otherwise it's just notworth it to me.
It's just too much, it's toomuch work to do that.
Allison (15:06):
Right, because you're speaking on big stages, heading
to South by Southwest.
You started, TikTok account thatquickly lit up in fuego.
From that, you got cold calls,people reaching out to you.
Can you come and keynote our..
Dr. Mara (15:27):
Two
Allison (15:28):
abroad and two documentaries.
I mean, holy shnikes.
That is nobody has time to domore because you particularly
knew not just the operations,but you knew where you wanted to
go.
You said to me, this is my plan.
(15:49):
I'm teaching university, but I'malso a speaker.
I also travel for speaking and Iwant to do more than of that.
And so, you were making verydeliberate choices.
Now, what's a mistake?
You see academics making whenthey're trying to level up their
careers or expand outside of,you know, maybe just tenured,
(16:16):
especially after 50.
Because I feel like there's somesort of breaking point where
they've been department head
Dr. Mara (16:23):
Right.
Allison (16:24):
And they're thinking, I don't want to teach four classes
every semester for the next 20years.
Dr. Mara (16:30):
Right.
You know, I think there's been afundamental shift in academia
because of what the marketplaceis like.
The expectation is that that wewill be public figures, that we
will be public academics.
In a way that didn't necessarilyexist ten years ago.
And it's because University isneed the promotion, frankly.
(16:51):
Now, my university in which Iwon't mention, but you can look
up very easily, has reallyterrible promotion.
Really terrible promotion.
And they have not been helpfulto me at all.
So, one of the things that Iwould say about academic to
academics is you need to learnhow to be your best mouthpiece.
(17:12):
You have to learn how to promoteyourself better than anybody
else.
Because unless you're workingfor a really large academic
institution, they won't have thebandwidth to promote you.
Other than to repost the stuffthat you've already gotten for
yourself.
I would also recommend you know,trying to, and for a lot of
academics this is a difficultshift, stop trying to write.
(17:32):
I mean, for me, and this hasalways been my situation, I
never expected to go to the IvyTower, and never, ever, ever,
ever wanted to.
And my feeling is that if we'regoing to do this, we're going to
do it.
academics.
I never, ever, ever, ever, everwanted to do that.
And my feeling is, is if we'regoing to do this research and
not take it out into the world.
(17:53):
Then, you know, kind of what'sthe kind of what's point?
My point is for us to take ourunderstanding and our learning
and bring it out to people sothey can actually use it, which
is part of the reason whyfrankly I joined TikTok was that
I knew that not every body isgoing to go out and buy my book
but they should.
But not every body can affordto.
Or they might be expose to thebook and they can go to the
(18:15):
library and pick it up.
But these are ideas that a lotof people don't know about or
they've kind of heard somethingabout.
And so, to have the opportunityto engage with people in that
space that I might not meetanywhere else has been
wonderful, frankly.
Allison (18:32):
Yeah, it's been unbelievable.
One of the testimonials, one ofthe endorsements for your book,
came from someone you met.
I think I might have pointed herout to you at some point.
Like, you should be talking toher.
Dr. Mara (18:47):
Mm
Allison (18:48):
But Daniela Mastanek Young is the author of
Uncultured, which is a memoir.
And the two of you look at cultsfrom different perspectives.
But also you're a TikToker andshe's a TikToker, and you're
really speaking to the samereader, which is...
Dr. Mara (19:07):
It's very funny because people constantly say,
Are you friends with theknitting cult lady?
Allison (19:13):
You are now.
Dr. Mara (19:13):
Yes, I am.
Yes, in fact, I am.
Allison (19:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The fact that you made thatshift, what is a shift you made
in your marketing and brandingstrategy, your approach this
time compared to your previousbooks?
Dr. Mara (19:32):
I made the mistake of creating, now, now you, you have
to remember I wrote my firstbook in oh, my God 21 years ago.
2004.
And I think it was my secondbook that I made my first
website for.
And so, what happened is, everytime I wrote my new book, I
created a new website, which islike wrong So, the other thing
(19:56):
that happened too, is every timeI wrote a new book, people knew
me for the book, which is thatbook.
But I started my career being aa policy wank.
Then, I wrote a book about mediaand religion.
Then I wrote a book about causemarketing and corporate social
responsibilities.
Then, I wrote a book aboutmarketing, you know stuff
(20:17):
marketing.
So, every time another book cameout, I was like, you know, who
is this person?
So I had to take a step back andsay, okay, what is the umbrella
idea of who I am and all thework that I've done over the
last 20 years in terms of mywriting.
And so that became deceptivemarketing.
That's the, um, and it'sinteresting about the way I talk
(20:38):
about it, because I don'tnecessarily want to say I'm an
expert in deceptive marketing,because then it sounds like I'm
an expert in telling people howto do deceptive marketing.
And that's not what I want tocome across as.
But I'm an expert in helping youdetect deceptive marketing
yourself.
That's how.
Deceptive marketing and how toprotect yourself from Your
(20:59):
family, your pocketbook, yourmental health against deceptive
marketing.
And so, it also became aquestion of, is it, you know, am
I Mara Einstein?
Is it Dr.
Mara Einstein?
Is it Mara Einstein, PhD?
And so, all of my socials areDr.
D.
R.
Mara Einstein, cause the name'sso good.
Allison (21:17):
Seriously, I mean, if you have a PhD and you're not
using Doctor,
Dr. Mara (21:22):
mm hmm.
Allison (21:23):
I challenge you to send me an email at
allison@lanelit.com and tell mewhy.
Dr. Mara (21:30):
Yeah.
Allison (21:31):
Because if you are a dude, you're using doctor, even
when you're a chiropractor,which is not even a real doctor.
Sorry, chiropractors.
So, if you've earned a PhD andyou're saying, well, I don't
know, and you insist on going byyour first name.
I will flick you in the foreheadbecause you deserve it and you
(21:53):
are a doctor for the love ofPete.
Dr. Mara (21:56):
So then, on the website if I was able to say
under that umbrella ofdeception, I talk about
religion, I talk about politics,I talk about purpose washing, I
talk about education, I talkabout brand cults.
And I'm sure I'm missing one,but there's six things.
I have free downsloads forpeople if you want to go into
all of those or highereducation.
(22:17):
I guess that's the one I missed.
So if people want to understandsort of the top lines of, what
are the basic hoodwinked ideasor the basics behind the
marketing of that area?
What are the tactics in terms ofyou being hoodwinked in that
space?
And what are the things that youneed to know in order to be able
to protect yourself againstthat?
Allison (22:39):
That's perfect because you did have to rise above all
the different books.
Like you are not your book, youare the brand and your book is
one product.
And you've done such a expertjob because you are a media
marketer, and you do knowmessaging.
So, you've been able to land onthat marketing statement, that
(23:03):
brand statement of, I'm anexpert in detecting deceptive
marketing practices and helpingyou protect yourself and your
family and your pocketbook andyour mental health.
Ooh, did I nail that?
Dr. Mara (23:16):
Yeah, I also recommend though, people work with other
people in that cause even as amarketer, one of the hardest
things to do is brand yourself.
Allison (23:24):
It is.
That's why I have a job becauseno one seize themselves as the
huge big effing deal that theyare they always are thinking
like, well, you know, there's adifferent, I wouldn't call
myself an expert or whatever,and we can get into that later,
but it is boring.
(23:44):
And whoever you are, yourhumility is boring me.
So, one of the things thataspiring authors are told is
you've got to build yourplatform.
Dr. Mara (23:55):
Oh, gosh.
Allison (23:56):
What is a common myth people believe about building
their platform?
And why is it holding them back?
Let's just call a spade a spade.
Dr. Mara (24:06):
Okay.
I had people say that to me.
like, I wanted to punch this person in the face, I
really did.
And I'm not a violent personoverall.
But here I am coming with 25 to30 years of marketing
experience.
You know, I haven't with theplatform.
Because I was a little busywriting the book and you know,
having an aceademic career.
Allison (24:27):
And being a global expert.
Dr. Mara (24:28):
Right.
And you know, all that kind ofstuff.
I promise you, I can figure outhow to build the platform.
And they're like, no, no, no,no, no.
If you don't have the platform,you can't go.
I was like, shut up.
Shut up.
And so, when I found my agent,that was not a problem for her,
because she said, well, you'lldo that over time.
I said, it kind of I neverreminded me when I was pregnant
(24:49):
with my daughter.
And I had people say to me, oh,you'll never finish your PhD
because you got pregnant.
No, I will finish while I willhave my daughter and I will get
a PhD.
And yes, I did both.
Allison (25:00):
Of course, you did.
Dr. Mara (25:02):
When people tell you those kinds of things, it's a
simple excuse for them to say noto you, don't take that as a no.
And I remember this, this isreally good advice, particularly
for women.
So, I also have an MBA inaddition to a PhD.
Allison (25:16):
Of Course, you do.
Dr. Mara (25:17):
And one of the things that they taught us in
negotiations is that when menare negotiating and they hear
someone says no.
what they hear is you haven'tgotten from me what you need to
hear yet.
They don't hear no.
When women are told no, womenhear no and walk away.
(25:37):
So don't that, don't do that.
Reframe it and say, okay, youjust haven't what you need to
hear yet.
I need to get it to the point,which could be, I will have a
platform six months from now,and you should sign me in the
meantime, and I promise somebodywill get the book And I to get
the book them.
(25:59):
And seriously, I had 25, 000followers on TikTok in about six
months, six months to a year.
Allison (26:05):
Yeah.
Yeah, you really did in, thinkin three months you had 17, 000.
I was keeping track because I dothat with all of my clients.
Dr. Mara (26:13):
Yeah.
Allison (26:13):
Like, do you realize how many people are following
you?
Dr. Mara (26:16):
Yeah.
Yeah, and so now it's like at34, 000.
But it's, you know, it's notlike 100, 000 or whatever, but
it's engaged with, who then sendthe information out to us.
You know, key marketing folks,you know, in the same way we're
talking about the influencereporting, we promote each
other's work.
Yeah.
to other people and bring otherpeople in, cross platforms and I
have, you know, key marketingfolks who are promoting me on
(26:39):
LinkedIn and promoting me onInstagram.
And so we, you know, in the sameway I was talking about the
influencers promoting eachother, you know, we promote each
other's work too.
Allison (26:48):
Yeah.
Okay, we're going to pivotagain.
Dr. Mara (26:51):
Okay.
Allison (26:51):
This time turn to the left.
What's a book you love that youwant everyone to know about
right now?
And it can't be your book.
Dr. Mara (26:58):
Oh, there was one I just read that I really loved
and why can't I think of what itis?
Well, on tyranny, but that's awhole different one.
What I'm reading right now isWild Faith, by Talia Levin.
Really important forunderstanding what's going on in
terms of religion and politicsright now.
(27:20):
And one of the things that shewrites about in the book, and it
was a real like aha moment forme and you, okay, this is an aha
moment from someone who has beenstudying religion since 1995.
And what she talks about is thatwhat people don't realize is the
evangelicals and the hardcorereligious people here in the
United States, when they thinkabout the devil and Satan and
(27:44):
all, they believe it.
So, while some of us may thatbelief system, they really
believe it.
And when you believe that atthat level, that helps explain a
whole lot about what's going onin terms of our politics right
now.
Because for them, it's not justabout putting a certain person
(28:05):
in office, it's about putting acertain person in office person
in order to be able to fight adevil.
That's a whole a whole otherlevel.
Allison (28:12):
Of crazY.
IThat's a whole other level ofcrazy.
I hope that these are real.
But also, you know, I sort ofknow that they're not.
Dr. Mara (28:22):
It's not a republicans and it's not an evangelicals,
but it is like 14% or somethingof the population.
Which is enough to swing thevote.
Allison (28:31):
Holy poo.
Dr. Mara (28:31):
Yeah, no, it's, I mean, it's a shock.
It's shocking.
Allison (28:34):
Okay, two more things.
Before we call this podcastcomplete, what's one thing you
want to leave people with?
Dr. Mara (28:42):
One you don't have to spend money.
One, you don't.
And probably, you're spending alot more money than you need to,
because you are getting wrappedup into the technology
particulary, as it relates tosocial media.
Because your phone is designedin every way possible to keep
(29:03):
you connected to it, to keep youscrolling, to keep you anxious.
And one of the Key ideas that Italk about in the book is that
we are not living in anattention economy, which is what
economists would say, right?
That people make money off ourattention.
What I argue is we live in ananxiety economy.
(29:25):
It's not enough to get our eyesconnected to your phone.
It's to get us ginned up andenraged to a point where we
continue doom scrolling, andthen we continue to get anxious,
and then we push a buttonbecause that anxiety needs to be
released.
So, remember that every time yougo online, social media isn't
about giving you information.
(29:45):
Social media is about sellingadvertising.
Allison (29:49):
Great warning.
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