January 4, 2025 • 21 mins
In this special 'Change, Technically: Holidays On The Couch' edition of the podcast, Ashley & Cat discuss their philosophies of measurement and goal tracking, debate the value of data, and ponder the behavioral science of doing the stuff we resolve to do.
Notes:
Cat & Ashley mention this essay: https://issues.org/limits-of-data-nguyen/
Show correction: Ashley wrongly said the Nguyen essay above had reminded her about Goodhart’s Law (the idea that as soon as we measure something, it loses meaning). Rather, she re-discovered it in Calling Bullshit by Carl Bergstrom and Jevin D. West. Ashley’s error explains why Cat was so confused about her comments on the essay, oops. :)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ashley (00:00):
If this episode gets 500 downloads within the first week,
(00:05):
we will get Change Technicallyhoodies.
Cat (00:08):
Do you even know what our numbers are, babe?
Ashley (00:10):
I haven't been tracking that closely.
You're the measurement person!
Cat (00:13):
I can't believe you don't know our download numbers.
I sent you a velocity report.
I was like,
Ashley (00:28):
What velocity report?
Cat (00:29):
In the first four, within the, no, because I'm interested
in the rate at which we have anaudience and not simply the raw
quantity.
It's like a much more thoughtfulway of thinking about it.
Like how is the, is the, is thethe rate of downloads, um,
comparable across our episodes?
Does one, does one episode havea spike, you know, earlier than
(00:52):
another?
You should know this.
You do like signal processing.
Ashley (00:55):
Yeah no I love this.
I'm just like staring at you.
Because I'm, I'm, I'm like, it'sso interesting to hear you put
those in, in some ways, like,different language than, you
know, I, well, I think,obviously, the rate of change is
interesting, of course.
Cat (01:12):
The rate of change.
Yeah.
So the rate of change issomething I've been thinking
about a lot because, um, I thinkabout like stories getting out
there and like my researchstories getting out there.
And, um, yeah, I'm also justcracking up again, because I
(01:33):
just, okay, so just so you know,you set a target that we've
already exceeded,
Ashley (01:38):
Well, then great, then we get sweatshirts.
I don't what the downside ofthis is
Cat (01:42):
It feels kind of like, um, yeah, kind of like a straw man
that you set up or something.
Ashley (01:47):
Well, I thought that's what all podcasters did.
Cat (01:49):
Are you gonna design the was do fake vanity numbers?
So, now everybody can know ourfake vanity numbers
Ashley (02:00):
Well, tell me more about.
Tell me more about this, wantingto know the impact of your
research, how do you think aboutthe impact of your research in
the world?
Cat (02:06):
My God.
Um, it's like the first day ofvacation, babe,
Ashley (02:12):
Okay, sorry, sorry, this is supposed to be a holiday
episode, not where I'minterviewing you about your
success metrics or your velocityscore, whatever the hell that
was
Cat (02:20):
Sure.
Let's talk about impact, youknow, because it's like the end
of the year and you and I havealways, we've always done a lot
of, um, uh, like we set NewYear's resolutions.
And we create little, um, goaltracking charts sometimes, but I
think I
Ashley (02:40):
It's kind of gross, yeah, we've done this like, for
many, many years.
I'll blame it on you thoughbecause you definitely started
this
Cat (02:46):
Well, the reason I started it is because I went to a party
one time that this lovely friendthrew, and he had all these
markers and poster boards andthings like that, and we all sat
around and like visualized likeour goals for the whole year.
And it's really like the, thesocial impact of how nice that
event was like made me feel likethis is a good thing to do.
Ashley (03:07):
I love that.
So like what, so people couldwrite New Year's resolutions on,
a board or something?
Cat (03:12):
It was a lot of, um, you know, it was a lot of behavioral
stuff.
Like I want to hit the gym threetimes a week, and so here's
three little boxes.
I, you know, you've seen these,me do these for years.
You know I love to draw boxesthat represent every week of the
year and then tick them off.
And, um, I think I have like a,like a 60 percent success rate
(03:36):
at actually remembering that Ihave this tracking and then
doing it.
Ashley (03:41):
Last year, I think I did really well for, like, the first
four months of the year, I saylast year, in 2024, and, I mean,
the big thing for me was I was,I had stopped going to PT in
December of 2023 for my knee,because I had an ACL tear a
little over two years ago now,and it's been that long.
Yeah, and I was like, okay, I'mgoing to do my own PT at home at
(04:03):
least, like, two days a week.
And I, I really religiouslymarked this off on the boxes,
because I also have adopted thebox approach to New Year's
resolutions.
Cat (04:11):
Yeah,
Ashley (04:11):
copypaste in this household Yeah, this lasted for
a good four months.
And I was actually justthinking, I did PT at home this
morning, and I was like, ooh, Icould check a box.
But now it's just awkwardbecause there's so many
unchecked boxes.
Cat (04:23):
Right, that's what happened to me.
I stopped checking the boxes andnow it's like a rows of empty
boxes and then I'm like, Iactually do a lot more than is
on the sheet or tracked and, andthen I kind of have this funny
relationship with it.
Like, I'm like, I think my sheetof paper is going to think I'm
lying because I need to fill inextra boxes.
And then I'm like, are thesejust vanity metrics?
Ashley (04:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cat (04:46):
Tracking is like an interesting experience to have.
Ashley (04:49):
I know, I've been thinking about this because I'm
trying to like, in my life,strike a balance between being
really goal directed and alsojust like listening to what I
need in the moment.
And I feel like when we set upthese like quite literal boxes
that we're trying to check inour life, like it does take a
little bit away from like, youknow, what does my body need
(05:09):
today?
Do I need to do PT or not?
Or, you know.
But then again, like, I'munderestimating systematically
how often I need to do PT
Cat (05:18):
Yeah, I think this is really interesting because I
feel like a lot of people, ornot a lot of people, I think the
advice out there is kind oflike, track stuff, because
you're a lazy dummy who like,won't do it.
And you and I are always findingthat actually we do a lot more
than we've ever tracked, and thetracking is kind of more like,
(05:40):
keeping track so that we canstop doing so much.
Ashley (05:44):
It's like we're trying to take the cognitive load off
of like, or maybe it's like theemotional load of feeling like
we're not doing enough andalmost like convince ourselves
that we're doing the thing.
Cat (05:54):
Yeah, exactly.
And also I think there's like ajournaling quality for you and I
both like we both really liketo, we, we spend all this effort
and we want to make it real.
Like, you kind of want to have acommemoration of it.
And so you were reallyreligiously committed to your
PT, very diligent about it.
And that was like, A second jobbasically for you and um, you
(06:18):
know, I don't know I thinkchecking it off is a way to sort
of just concretize it
Ashley (06:22):
Yeah, I think that's true.
I mean, is it, is the thing herethat like, you know, at the end
of the day, maybe we shouldn'ttie our value.
So closely to checking off theboxes Like, you know, like you
said like oh like, you know, wewe set up these goals for
ourselves because it's like ohyou big dummy like you're never
gonna do this if you if youdon't like set it up but maybe
(06:44):
it's okay to like give yourselfa little bit of a little bit of
freedom a little of blurryness
Cat (06:48):
I've never felt like the boxes were a source of value.
I actually kind of felt morelike that's why I said it's kind
of like journaling because it'slike it's more just like um, I
mean, I I make those boxes Ilike those boxes like they're
not being like reported to myboss or something, you know,
it's-
Ashley (07:07):
Until now.
Picture
Cat (07:09):
and
Ashley (07:10):
sends to boss.
Cat (07:10):
Like you're gonna send that that would be weird.
Ashley (07:14):
That would be so invasive.
I'm just kidding.
I would never do that.
Cat (07:17):
That was so weird that you just said that.
Um, you don't even have a box, aboss that I could send your
boxes to.
Ashley (07:24):
so what would happen is you would send it to my
university and it would get likeshuffled through some
bureaucratic nightmare.
Cat (07:29):
Okay, there's so many end of 2024 things we have to
process here.
I'm like trying to stay on trackwith what you're asking about.
I think we both read this essayabout the limits of data, right?
And I heard that same languagecome out that we read in the
essay and what you just said,which is about, you know, that
(07:51):
your values are never going tobe contained in the measurement.
The moment you let a measurementstart to lead you around and,
and define your values, that'slike the moment that you lose.
Um, And I, I, I actually thinkabout when I sit down and I, you
know, think about goals and I'mliterally running a research
(08:14):
project right now about peopleachieving their goals.
So, you know, I've read a lotabout this and, um, I think
about very different kinds ofthings to reward myself for
doing.
And so some of my things arelike categorical achievements.
Like I have this.
(08:34):
this kind of crazy thing I'dlike to have happen at some
point in this year, and I'm notsure where, but like, you know,
this is like a categorical goal.
Like, I'll have, you know, takenone trip that looks like
whatever, and I'm not sure whenit's going to happen or how, but
eventually, like, we'll getthere.
And then I have a lot of, like,activity focused goals, because
(08:56):
I think for me, that's the stuffthat I find hard to remember and
I could look back on the lasttwo months and say, why, why do
I feel, do I feel worse or do Ifeel better?
You know, it like sort ofknowing that I went to the gym
three times a week, it's justsomething I don't want to
trouble my own brain with.
(09:16):
I just want something else to becontaining that.
And I can reflect on it when Ineed it, you know
Ashley (09:22):
Yeah, like as a journal, as you said.
Cat (09:24):
Yeah.
And then also like there'soutcome goals for that.
There's like, you know, I'vebeen working on my respiratory
health for, you know, two yearsand there's goals with that.
There's kind of like, can I feelsafe and secure going on a hike
with you on vacation?
And then there's also just likeprocess goals, because
sometimes, you know, therecovery has been really
(09:47):
nonlinear.
And so the process goals give methe sense of like, yes, you
always still went to the gym,even though today it was worse
than the other day.
And, you know, I had to do adifferent kind of workout, but
you know, you hit that.
So I think about a lot of stufflike trading off each other.
Ashley (10:04):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So in terms of that essay weread, and that we can link in
the show notes, we, that, thatessay talks about, you know, as
soon as you start trackingsomething, it becomes
meaningless, right?
This idea like that, if acompany is like, or, or sort of
like,
Cat (10:23):
I don't feel like that's the becomes meaningless?,
Ashley (10:26):
Sorry, it's the, the idea is like, as soon as you set
something as a goal, it becomesmeaningless.
As soon as you, as you wouldsay, operationalize it.
Cat (10:34):
I think it's as, as soon as you cede your own decision
making to the measure, I mean,in a he was saying the measures
have a lot of meaning, but like,
Ashley (10:45):
Yeah.
But the idea of like, okay,let's say, you know, this, this
happened with like, mousemovements and people trying to
work from home, right?
So like, as soon as they said,oh, if you move your mouse so
many times an
Cat (10:57):
Oh, a computer mouse.
I immediately thought you meantneuroscience mouse.
Ashley (11:02):
Gosh.
Yeah.
I should probably clarify whenwe're talking.
Cat (11:05):
Okay.
Right.
Okay.
So people working at home, mousemovements.
Ashley (11:09):
So they, so they, you know, companies were like, okay,
you know, we're going to trackyour mouse movements to know if
you're physically at your desk.
And then as soon as that becamethe goal, people bought these
devices that would jitter theirmouse.
Cat (11:21):
Okay.
Yeah, sure.
The classic, like people modifytheir behavior to game the
system.
Um, I don't think that was thewhole point of the essay
Ashley (11:30):
No, no, not the whole point, but it's a point within
it.
And I think it's interesting inthe context of this
conversation, because we'retalking about goal setting for
ourselves and
Cat (11:38):
Right goal doesn't belong to the measure.
measure belongs to the goal.
Ashley (11:42):
Yeah.
And I think like, okay.
You know, if you, if you don'thave like real intention in
meeting these goals, like, let'ssay your goal is I'm going to go
to the gym five days a week.
And that's what you say the goalis.
Well, does that mean you show upat the gym and you do five
minutes of workout and you leaveand you check the box?
Like that's the, that's the
Cat (11:59):
count as a real gym session?
Ashley (12:03):
Yeah.
Or, or like, is there, you know,a deeper value and like, really
it's about changing yourintentions
Cat (12:08):
I'm feeling like a lot of I'm feeling like arguing with
you really.
Ashley (12:16):
Wait, like you want to argue with me?
Yeah, please, please argue withme.
Cat (12:21):
Okay.
So yeah, and I I And I love youand you're making like
incredibly good points, but Ijust feel like I'm on the side
of things so much so much of thetime that's just like
measurement is really beautifuland powerful and there's all
kinds of I'm just really tiredof just in my world, I've heard
(12:44):
for like a million, a milliontimes over, oh my gosh, we can't
measure anything.
As soon as we measure anything,human beings will corrupt it.
The answer is to never measureanything.
And it's just like, well, thatsucks for those of us who are
the victims of bigotedevaluation or who aren't in the
(13:05):
old boys club, you know, and,and the whole, like, I'll know
it when I see it and I'm goingto promote my friends.
Like, that's also a world inwhich things never get measured.
I'm going to promote my friendsand my friends are all white
dudes.
And, um, so that's why I thinkthe essay that we both read is
(13:25):
like a little bit deeper becauseit's like saying.
You know, context gets strippedout of quantified measures and
context matters, but there arealso reasons we do that.
And I've, I've, you know, been aperson in that position, making
the choice to strip out contextsometimes to create a measure
(13:48):
that will travel and sometimesinfluence a decision maker, you
know, and so that's stuff like,you can stand in front of a
politician all you want and tellthem a sad story about a
student, but honestly, you know,it's a different form of power
and influence to say, I havemeasured all of the students who
(14:09):
were on the free and reducedlunch program and shown like the
relative gain that you can getby investing more dollars into
these schools in exactly thisway.
Right.
And like, I believe incrediblydeeply that like we, share
meaning in those measures.
And so what, uh, what you wantto push back on is just the kind
of like constant hate for allmeasurement.
Ashley (14:32):
Yeah, no, and obviously, obviously I love measurement,
you know Obviously I am someonewho, when possible, puts numbers
behind statements.
Like, even when I was writing mybook, I wanted it to be
extremely evidence backed.
Like, you know, I wanted to havethe numbers from grad programs,
like, the statistics in terms ofwho gets in and why.
(14:54):
Like, all of this stuff reallymatters to me.
Cat (14:57):
People don't argue with you about your numbers
Ashley (14:59):
No, right, so I come from a field where, yeah, like,
we have, you know, we have tomeasure it.
Like, I couldn't just, like,publish a paper that was like,
here's you know, how owls makedecisions about what prey to eat
just because I thought this wastrue.
Like, I have to have data toshow it.
So, obviously, yeah, I'm notfighting the same battles you
are on a daily basis.
(15:20):
But, I mean, I think, I thinkactually, like, what I was
trying to say was a little morehopeful.
Because, you know, I think if wewant to keep our new year's
resolutions, you know, but wewant to operationalize them,
right.
Like we could do the cheatingthing, which is only go to the
(15:40):
gym for five minutes, right.
But I think most of us wouldfeel in our heart of hearts that
that's not the same thing asreally committing to your
fitness.
Right.
And so I guess what I'm sayingis like, you know, I think
there's like, there's a power inputting things on paper and
setting a goal and the thingthat has to come along with
that.
Come along with that measurementis like the intention and the,
(16:03):
and the culture, like kind ofbringing this back to some of
your other work.
Right.
You need a culture and a contextin which you can actually make
that thing happen in the way youreally intended.
Right.
And I think for you, it's like,you know, measuring like
employee productivity orsomething.
Okay.
If you want to put some metricson it, like, great.
But like, if you don't set thatup in a culture where people can
(16:25):
actually do it the way youintended, like, so that you're
meeting the underlying value,the underlying, like, motivation
behind the thing, that's whatmakes, like, the goal setting,
like, and the measurement ofthose goals really effective.
Cat (16:40):
Yeah, even if we just stay on the level of like New Year's
resolutions, you know, and I, I,I guess a sort of silly, I, I
don't know if this is likeexactly a response to your, your
thesis there.
I'm just going to say it, like,I, I, I was really scared to go
to the gym, you know, and likemy lungs hurt for a long, long
(17:04):
time and I had a lot ofincredibly scary stuff and I'm
like, yes, I totally see whatyou're saying.
But on the other hand.
Like there was a time in whichwalking into the gym building
stretching on a mat and leavingimmediately was a victory and
(17:25):
you know, it's it's just sort ofinteresting to set a goal and
then to go live your life andmeet reality and maybe realize
like that living out the workthat you have to do to meet your
goal is actually, you know, isway harder than you thought, or
showing up actually looks waysimpler, or you're only going to
(17:49):
get a fraction of the way there.
So that's maybe like a tinycounterpoint from a behavioral
science point of view.
If someone's struggling to workout and get themselves to the
gym, it's kind of like fake ittill you make it actually works
on us
Ashley (18:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cat (18:03):
And so that's sort of profound that.
There's a negative part of this,which is like, we might be
gaming metrics and it'smeaningless, but there's a
really beautifully cool part ofthis, which is like you make
yourself go through the motions,and then you start to feel your
way towards a new version ofyourself.
Ashley (18:25):
Totally.
I mean, I think, I think that'skind of like a, a beautiful
addition.
Is that like.
You know, you have to be sort oflike realistic and also
iterative in the way you setgoals and like maybe initially
you set out some goal and you'relike, look, actually, the thing
is just getting myself out thedoor, you know, getting myself
to leave the house.
And that's really the thing.
(18:45):
Right.
And I think what you describedis like, and you're the
psychologist.
So you tell me, but, you know,the, this is like the
Cat (18:52):
You tell me how much dopamine it causes.
Ashley (18:54):
This is the basis of like cognitive behavioral
therapy, right?
Like you just expose yourself tothese new things or like the
thing you're moving towards
Cat (19:01):
And multiple kinds of therapy, not just
Ashley (19:03):
Not just CBT.
Yeah.
Cat (19:04):
But like to create behavioral experiments in your
own life is the basis of a lotof different, you know, and, and
create it, you know, I would saythe modern forms of therapy,
which, which emphasize all kindsof things, like being in a safe
enough space to do it and likecultural, cultural, culturally
responsive methods, which thinkabout, the interaction between
(19:28):
you and the environment and thatyou could, you could run a
certain kind of experiment incertain kinds of settings that,
you know, are good for you now.
I'm just throwing keywords atyou.
I'm yeah.
I wrote my first clinicalpsychology paper this year and
it was like, really cool for me.
Ashley (19:49):
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's like,there's so much overlap between
all these things between, youknow, like what it is that
you're trying to do in yourwork, what it is that all of us
are trying to do just on a dailybasis to be like better humans.
And I think this is probablylike a lot of people's minds.
Like, right now, as they thinkabout a new year, as we think
about a new president, as wethink about, like, whatever it
(20:09):
is, like, what is it that weactually want to move towards?
And how do we do that?
Cat (20:14):
Like I said, it's the first day of vacation, babe.
And, uh, I'm on the level of thelittle boxes.
Ashley (20:24):
Well, you know, I think this is another reason we need
the little boxes is becausesometimes you get out of bed and
you're like, I don't even knowhow to think about what I need
to do today.
But you look at the little boxesand they tell you to do the
thing
Cat (20:34):
Little boxes contain wisdom.
Ashley (20:37):
They contain wisdom from prior you.
Cat (20:39):
Yes, they contain wisdom from like the, you know, the
sessions that you and I havewhere we sit down and we're
making our mutual little boxeslike they contain social wisdom.
Um, I I think sometimes metricsare just reminders, right?
It's just like oh, yeah,remember you have that goal like
(21:01):
remember you have that thing.
Yeah, like cool this is ameasure but the measure is just
like a little a little symbol alittle signal and um, I I feel
like an an an ease and like alightness in my relationship to
my own measurements when I treatit that way.
I'm like, we all know the goal'sbigger, but this measurement is
(21:24):
kind of a cute little way toremember to think about it.
If this episode gets 500 downloads within the first week,
(00:05):
we will get Change Technicallyhoodies.
Cat (00:08):
Do you even know what our numbers are, babe?
Ashley (00:10):
I haven't been tracking that closely.
You're the measurement person!
Cat (00:13):
I can't believe you don't know our download numbers.
I sent you a velocity report.
I was like,
Ashley (00:28):
What velocity report?
Cat (00:29):
In the first four, within the, no, because I'm interested
in the rate at which we have anaudience and not simply the raw
quantity.
It's like a much more thoughtfulway of thinking about it.
Like how is the, is the, is thethe rate of downloads, um,
comparable across our episodes?
Does one, does one episode havea spike, you know, earlier than
(00:52):
another?
You should know this.
You do like signal processing.
Ashley (00:55):
Yeah no I love this.
I'm just like staring at you.
Because I'm, I'm, I'm like, it'sso interesting to hear you put
those in, in some ways, like,different language than, you
know, I, well, I think,obviously, the rate of change is
interesting, of course.
Cat (01:12):
The rate of change.
Yeah.
So the rate of change issomething I've been thinking
about a lot because, um, I thinkabout like stories getting out
there and like my researchstories getting out there.
And, um, yeah, I'm also justcracking up again, because I
(01:33):
just, okay, so just so you know,you set a target that we've
already exceeded,
Ashley (01:38):
Well, then great, then we get sweatshirts.
I don't what the downside ofthis is
Cat (01:42):
It feels kind of like, um, yeah, kind of like a straw man
that you set up or something.
Ashley (01:47):
Well, I thought that's what all podcasters did.
Cat (01:49):
Are you gonna design the was do fake vanity numbers?
So, now everybody can know ourfake vanity numbers
Ashley (02:00):
Well, tell me more about.
Tell me more about this, wantingto know the impact of your
research, how do you think aboutthe impact of your research in
the world?
Cat (02:06):
My God.
Um, it's like the first day ofvacation, babe,
Ashley (02:12):
Okay, sorry, sorry, this is supposed to be a holiday
episode, not where I'minterviewing you about your
success metrics or your velocityscore, whatever the hell that
was
Cat (02:20):
Sure.
Let's talk about impact, youknow, because it's like the end
of the year and you and I havealways, we've always done a lot
of, um, uh, like we set NewYear's resolutions.
And we create little, um, goaltracking charts sometimes, but I
think I
Ashley (02:40):
It's kind of gross, yeah, we've done this like, for
many, many years.
I'll blame it on you thoughbecause you definitely started
this
Cat (02:46):
Well, the reason I started it is because I went to a party
one time that this lovely friendthrew, and he had all these
markers and poster boards andthings like that, and we all sat
around and like visualized likeour goals for the whole year.
And it's really like the, thesocial impact of how nice that
event was like made me feel likethis is a good thing to do.
Ashley (03:07):
I love that.
So like what, so people couldwrite New Year's resolutions on,
a board or something?
Cat (03:12):
It was a lot of, um, you know, it was a lot of behavioral
stuff.
Like I want to hit the gym threetimes a week, and so here's
three little boxes.
I, you know, you've seen these,me do these for years.
You know I love to draw boxesthat represent every week of the
year and then tick them off.
And, um, I think I have like a,like a 60 percent success rate
(03:36):
at actually remembering that Ihave this tracking and then
doing it.
Ashley (03:41):
Last year, I think I did really well for, like, the first
four months of the year, I saylast year, in 2024, and, I mean,
the big thing for me was I was,I had stopped going to PT in
December of 2023 for my knee,because I had an ACL tear a
little over two years ago now,and it's been that long.
Yeah, and I was like, okay, I'mgoing to do my own PT at home at
(04:03):
least, like, two days a week.
And I, I really religiouslymarked this off on the boxes,
because I also have adopted thebox approach to New Year's
resolutions.
Cat (04:11):
Yeah,
Ashley (04:11):
copypaste in this household Yeah, this lasted for
a good four months.
And I was actually justthinking, I did PT at home this
morning, and I was like, ooh, Icould check a box.
But now it's just awkwardbecause there's so many
unchecked boxes.
Cat (04:23):
Right, that's what happened to me.
I stopped checking the boxes andnow it's like a rows of empty
boxes and then I'm like, Iactually do a lot more than is
on the sheet or tracked and, andthen I kind of have this funny
relationship with it.
Like, I'm like, I think my sheetof paper is going to think I'm
lying because I need to fill inextra boxes.
And then I'm like, are thesejust vanity metrics?
Ashley (04:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cat (04:46):
Tracking is like an interesting experience to have.
Ashley (04:49):
I know, I've been thinking about this because I'm
trying to like, in my life,strike a balance between being
really goal directed and alsojust like listening to what I
need in the moment.
And I feel like when we set upthese like quite literal boxes
that we're trying to check inour life, like it does take a
little bit away from like, youknow, what does my body need
(05:09):
today?
Do I need to do PT or not?
Or, you know.
But then again, like, I'munderestimating systematically
how often I need to do PT
Cat (05:18):
Yeah, I think this is really interesting because I
feel like a lot of people, ornot a lot of people, I think the
advice out there is kind oflike, track stuff, because
you're a lazy dummy who like,won't do it.
And you and I are always findingthat actually we do a lot more
than we've ever tracked, and thetracking is kind of more like,
(05:40):
keeping track so that we canstop doing so much.
Ashley (05:44):
It's like we're trying to take the cognitive load off
of like, or maybe it's like theemotional load of feeling like
we're not doing enough andalmost like convince ourselves
that we're doing the thing.
Cat (05:54):
Yeah, exactly.
And also I think there's like ajournaling quality for you and I
both like we both really liketo, we, we spend all this effort
and we want to make it real.
Like, you kind of want to have acommemoration of it.
And so you were reallyreligiously committed to your
PT, very diligent about it.
And that was like, A second jobbasically for you and um, you
(06:18):
know, I don't know I thinkchecking it off is a way to sort
of just concretize it
Ashley (06:22):
Yeah, I think that's true.
I mean, is it, is the thing herethat like, you know, at the end
of the day, maybe we shouldn'ttie our value.
So closely to checking off theboxes Like, you know, like you
said like oh like, you know, wewe set up these goals for
ourselves because it's like ohyou big dummy like you're never
gonna do this if you if youdon't like set it up but maybe
(06:44):
it's okay to like give yourselfa little bit of a little bit of
freedom a little of blurryness
Cat (06:48):
I've never felt like the boxes were a source of value.
I actually kind of felt morelike that's why I said it's kind
of like journaling because it'slike it's more just like um, I
mean, I I make those boxes Ilike those boxes like they're
not being like reported to myboss or something, you know,
it's-
Ashley (07:07):
Until now.
Picture
Cat (07:09):
and
Ashley (07:10):
sends to boss.
Cat (07:10):
Like you're gonna send that that would be weird.
Ashley (07:14):
That would be so invasive.
I'm just kidding.
I would never do that.
Cat (07:17):
That was so weird that you just said that.
Um, you don't even have a box, aboss that I could send your
boxes to.
Ashley (07:24):
so what would happen is you would send it to my
university and it would get likeshuffled through some
bureaucratic nightmare.
Cat (07:29):
Okay, there's so many end of 2024 things we have to
process here.
I'm like trying to stay on trackwith what you're asking about.
I think we both read this essayabout the limits of data, right?
And I heard that same languagecome out that we read in the
essay and what you just said,which is about, you know, that
(07:51):
your values are never going tobe contained in the measurement.
The moment you let a measurementstart to lead you around and,
and define your values, that'slike the moment that you lose.
Um, And I, I, I actually thinkabout when I sit down and I, you
know, think about goals and I'mliterally running a research
(08:14):
project right now about peopleachieving their goals.
So, you know, I've read a lotabout this and, um, I think
about very different kinds ofthings to reward myself for
doing.
And so some of my things arelike categorical achievements.
Like I have this.
(08:34):
this kind of crazy thing I'dlike to have happen at some
point in this year, and I'm notsure where, but like, you know,
this is like a categorical goal.
Like, I'll have, you know, takenone trip that looks like
whatever, and I'm not sure whenit's going to happen or how, but
eventually, like, we'll getthere.
And then I have a lot of, like,activity focused goals, because
(08:56):
I think for me, that's the stuffthat I find hard to remember and
I could look back on the lasttwo months and say, why, why do
I feel, do I feel worse or do Ifeel better?
You know, it like sort ofknowing that I went to the gym
three times a week, it's justsomething I don't want to
trouble my own brain with.
(09:16):
I just want something else to becontaining that.
And I can reflect on it when Ineed it, you know
Ashley (09:22):
Yeah, like as a journal, as you said.
Cat (09:24):
Yeah.
And then also like there'soutcome goals for that.
There's like, you know, I'vebeen working on my respiratory
health for, you know, two yearsand there's goals with that.
There's kind of like, can I feelsafe and secure going on a hike
with you on vacation?
And then there's also just likeprocess goals, because
sometimes, you know, therecovery has been really
(09:47):
nonlinear.
And so the process goals give methe sense of like, yes, you
always still went to the gym,even though today it was worse
than the other day.
And, you know, I had to do adifferent kind of workout, but
you know, you hit that.
So I think about a lot of stufflike trading off each other.
Ashley (10:04):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So in terms of that essay weread, and that we can link in
the show notes, we, that, thatessay talks about, you know, as
soon as you start trackingsomething, it becomes
meaningless, right?
This idea like that, if acompany is like, or, or sort of
like,
Cat (10:23):
I don't feel like that's the becomes meaningless?,
Ashley (10:26):
Sorry, it's the, the idea is like, as soon as you set
something as a goal, it becomesmeaningless.
As soon as you, as you wouldsay, operationalize it.
Cat (10:34):
I think it's as, as soon as you cede your own decision
making to the measure, I mean,in a he was saying the measures
have a lot of meaning, but like,
Ashley (10:45):
Yeah.
But the idea of like, okay,let's say, you know, this, this
happened with like, mousemovements and people trying to
work from home, right?
So like, as soon as they said,oh, if you move your mouse so
many times an
Cat (10:57):
Oh, a computer mouse.
I immediately thought you meantneuroscience mouse.
Ashley (11:02):
Gosh.
Yeah.
I should probably clarify whenwe're talking.
Cat (11:05):
Okay.
Right.
Okay.
So people working at home, mousemovements.
Ashley (11:09):
So they, so they, you know, companies were like, okay,
you know, we're going to trackyour mouse movements to know if
you're physically at your desk.
And then as soon as that becamethe goal, people bought these
devices that would jitter theirmouse.
Cat (11:21):
Okay.
Yeah, sure.
The classic, like people modifytheir behavior to game the
system.
Um, I don't think that was thewhole point of the essay
Ashley (11:30):
No, no, not the whole point, but it's a point within
it.
And I think it's interesting inthe context of this
conversation, because we'retalking about goal setting for
ourselves and
Cat (11:38):
Right goal doesn't belong to the measure.
measure belongs to the goal.
Ashley (11:42):
Yeah.
And I think like, okay.
You know, if you, if you don'thave like real intention in
meeting these goals, like, let'ssay your goal is I'm going to go
to the gym five days a week.
And that's what you say the goalis.
Well, does that mean you show upat the gym and you do five
minutes of workout and you leaveand you check the box?
Like that's the, that's the
Cat (11:59):
count as a real gym session?
Ashley (12:03):
Yeah.
Or, or like, is there, you know,a deeper value and like, really
it's about changing yourintentions
Cat (12:08):
I'm feeling like a lot of I'm feeling like arguing with
you really.
Ashley (12:16):
Wait, like you want to argue with me?
Yeah, please, please argue withme.
Cat (12:21):
Okay.
So yeah, and I I And I love youand you're making like
incredibly good points, but Ijust feel like I'm on the side
of things so much so much of thetime that's just like
measurement is really beautifuland powerful and there's all
kinds of I'm just really tiredof just in my world, I've heard
(12:44):
for like a million, a milliontimes over, oh my gosh, we can't
measure anything.
As soon as we measure anything,human beings will corrupt it.
The answer is to never measureanything.
And it's just like, well, thatsucks for those of us who are
the victims of bigotedevaluation or who aren't in the
(13:05):
old boys club, you know, and,and the whole, like, I'll know
it when I see it and I'm goingto promote my friends.
Like, that's also a world inwhich things never get measured.
I'm going to promote my friendsand my friends are all white
dudes.
And, um, so that's why I thinkthe essay that we both read is
(13:25):
like a little bit deeper becauseit's like saying.
You know, context gets strippedout of quantified measures and
context matters, but there arealso reasons we do that.
And I've, I've, you know, been aperson in that position, making
the choice to strip out contextsometimes to create a measure
(13:48):
that will travel and sometimesinfluence a decision maker, you
know, and so that's stuff like,you can stand in front of a
politician all you want and tellthem a sad story about a
student, but honestly, you know,it's a different form of power
and influence to say, I havemeasured all of the students who
(14:09):
were on the free and reducedlunch program and shown like the
relative gain that you can getby investing more dollars into
these schools in exactly thisway.
Right.
And like, I believe incrediblydeeply that like we, share
meaning in those measures.
And so what, uh, what you wantto push back on is just the kind
of like constant hate for allmeasurement.
Ashley (14:32):
Yeah, no, and obviously, obviously I love measurement,
you know Obviously I am someonewho, when possible, puts numbers
behind statements.
Like, even when I was writing mybook, I wanted it to be
extremely evidence backed.
Like, you know, I wanted to havethe numbers from grad programs,
like, the statistics in terms ofwho gets in and why.
(14:54):
Like, all of this stuff reallymatters to me.
Cat (14:57):
People don't argue with you about your numbers
Ashley (14:59):
No, right, so I come from a field where, yeah, like,
we have, you know, we have tomeasure it.
Like, I couldn't just, like,publish a paper that was like,
here's you know, how owls makedecisions about what prey to eat
just because I thought this wastrue.
Like, I have to have data toshow it.
So, obviously, yeah, I'm notfighting the same battles you
are on a daily basis.
(15:20):
But, I mean, I think, I thinkactually, like, what I was
trying to say was a little morehopeful.
Because, you know, I think if wewant to keep our new year's
resolutions, you know, but wewant to operationalize them,
right.
Like we could do the cheatingthing, which is only go to the
(15:40):
gym for five minutes, right.
But I think most of us wouldfeel in our heart of hearts that
that's not the same thing asreally committing to your
fitness.
Right.
And so I guess what I'm sayingis like, you know, I think
there's like, there's a power inputting things on paper and
setting a goal and the thingthat has to come along with
that.
Come along with that measurementis like the intention and the,
(16:03):
and the culture, like kind ofbringing this back to some of
your other work.
Right.
You need a culture and a contextin which you can actually make
that thing happen in the way youreally intended.
Right.
And I think for you, it's like,you know, measuring like
employee productivity orsomething.
Okay.
If you want to put some metricson it, like, great.
But like, if you don't set thatup in a culture where people can
(16:25):
actually do it the way youintended, like, so that you're
meeting the underlying value,the underlying, like, motivation
behind the thing, that's whatmakes, like, the goal setting,
like, and the measurement ofthose goals really effective.
Cat (16:40):
Yeah, even if we just stay on the level of like New Year's
resolutions, you know, and I, I,I guess a sort of silly, I, I
don't know if this is likeexactly a response to your, your
thesis there.
I'm just going to say it, like,I, I, I was really scared to go
to the gym, you know, and likemy lungs hurt for a long, long
(17:04):
time and I had a lot ofincredibly scary stuff and I'm
like, yes, I totally see whatyou're saying.
But on the other hand.
Like there was a time in whichwalking into the gym building
stretching on a mat and leavingimmediately was a victory and
(17:25):
you know, it's it's just sort ofinteresting to set a goal and
then to go live your life andmeet reality and maybe realize
like that living out the workthat you have to do to meet your
goal is actually, you know, isway harder than you thought, or
showing up actually looks waysimpler, or you're only going to
(17:49):
get a fraction of the way there.
So that's maybe like a tinycounterpoint from a behavioral
science point of view.
If someone's struggling to workout and get themselves to the
gym, it's kind of like fake ittill you make it actually works
on us
Ashley (18:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cat (18:03):
And so that's sort of profound that.
There's a negative part of this,which is like, we might be
gaming metrics and it'smeaningless, but there's a
really beautifully cool part ofthis, which is like you make
yourself go through the motions,and then you start to feel your
way towards a new version ofyourself.
Ashley (18:25):
Totally.
I mean, I think, I think that'skind of like a, a beautiful
addition.
Is that like.
You know, you have to be sort oflike realistic and also
iterative in the way you setgoals and like maybe initially
you set out some goal and you'relike, look, actually, the thing
is just getting myself out thedoor, you know, getting myself
to leave the house.
And that's really the thing.
(18:45):
Right.
And I think what you describedis like, and you're the
psychologist.
So you tell me, but, you know,the, this is like the
Cat (18:52):
You tell me how much dopamine it causes.
Ashley (18:54):
This is the basis of like cognitive behavioral
therapy, right?
Like you just expose yourself tothese new things or like the
thing you're moving towards
Cat (19:01):
And multiple kinds of therapy, not just
Ashley (19:03):
Not just CBT.
Yeah.
Cat (19:04):
But like to create behavioral experiments in your
own life is the basis of a lotof different, you know, and, and
create it, you know, I would saythe modern forms of therapy,
which, which emphasize all kindsof things, like being in a safe
enough space to do it and likecultural, cultural, culturally
responsive methods, which thinkabout, the interaction between
(19:28):
you and the environment and thatyou could, you could run a
certain kind of experiment incertain kinds of settings that,
you know, are good for you now.
I'm just throwing keywords atyou.
I'm yeah.
I wrote my first clinicalpsychology paper this year and
it was like, really cool for me.
Ashley (19:49):
Yeah.
I mean, I think there's like,there's so much overlap between
all these things between, youknow, like what it is that
you're trying to do in yourwork, what it is that all of us
are trying to do just on a dailybasis to be like better humans.
And I think this is probablylike a lot of people's minds.
Like, right now, as they thinkabout a new year, as we think
about a new president, as wethink about, like, whatever it
(20:09):
is, like, what is it that weactually want to move towards?
And how do we do that?
Cat (20:14):
Like I said, it's the first day of vacation, babe.
And, uh, I'm on the level of thelittle boxes.
Ashley (20:24):
Well, you know, I think this is another reason we need
the little boxes is becausesometimes you get out of bed and
you're like, I don't even knowhow to think about what I need
to do today.
But you look at the little boxesand they tell you to do the
thing
Cat (20:34):
Little boxes contain wisdom.
Ashley (20:37):
They contain wisdom from prior you.
Cat (20:39):
Yes, they contain wisdom from like the, you know, the
sessions that you and I havewhere we sit down and we're
making our mutual little boxeslike they contain social wisdom.
Um, I I think sometimes metricsare just reminders, right?
It's just like oh, yeah,remember you have that goal like
(21:01):
remember you have that thing.
Yeah, like cool this is ameasure but the measure is just
like a little a little symbol alittle signal and um, I I feel
like an an an ease and like alightness in my relationship to
my own measurements when I treatit that way.
I'm like, we all know the goal'sbigger, but this measurement is
(21:24):
kind of a cute little way toremember to think about it.
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