August 4, 2025 • 40 mins
Feeling lost in people-pleasing and emotional caretaking? You’re not alone. Psychotherapist and author of Love Smacked, Sherry Gaba, joins us to unpack codependency. We explore how early relational trauma wires us to abandon ourselves for connection.
Learn to spot the subtle signs of codependency: resentment, overgiving, chronic guilt. Sherry explains the link between love addiction and the pull toward unavailable partners.
We dive into healing tools: inner child work, parts therapy, and nervous system regulation. Discover how healing doesn’t always mean leaving the relationship—discernment is key.
This episode is both validating and deeply practical for anyone on the healing path.
Tune in to reclaim your peace, power, and sense of self.
For more information, go to www.SherryGaba.com
Get my Free ebook on the link between codependency and trauma here https://sherrygaba.com/trauma-quiz
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you've ever found yourself stuck in
(00:01):
people-pleasing, constantlyover-giving in relationships or
wondering why you keep losingyourself trying to make someone
else happy, then this episode'sfor you.
I'm joined by the amazing SherryGaba.
She's a psychotherapist, authorof Love Smacked, and a total
powerhouse when it comes tohelping people heal from
codependency, love addiction andtoxic relationships.
(00:22):
We're talking about whatcodependency actually is and
what it's not, how unresolvedtrauma shows up in
over-functioning or emotionalcaretaking and how it can keep
us disconnected from our trueselves.
We also dive into the red flagsof codependent patterns, the
overlap with love addiction and,most importantly, what you can
do to start breaking free, evenif you're still in a
(00:44):
relationship or family dynamicthat's feeding the pattern.
There's so much wisdom packedinto this episode, so grab your
coffee, find a cozy spot andlet's get into it.
Welcome to the CodependentDoctor, a podcast where we
unpack the messy, beautifuljourney of healing from
codependency.
If you're burned out frompeople-pleasing, stuck in
(01:05):
unhealthy patterns or just tiredof putting yourself last,
you're in the right place.
I'm Dr Angela Downey, a familydoctor and fellow codependent,
and I'm here to help youreconnect to your authentic self
.
One honest conversation at atime.
Here we go.
Hello to all my wonderfulpodcast listeners and welcome to
the fourth episode of theCodependent Doctor.
(01:25):
I'm your host, dr Angela Downey, a family doctor and fellow
codependent, here to help usuntangle our patterns, heal our
hearts and reclaim our peace.
Today's episode is a littledifferent, but in the best way
possible, because I'm not flyingsolo today.
I'm joined by Sherry Gaba.
She's a licensedpsychotherapist and life coach
(01:46):
who helps people cope withcodependency, love addiction,
toxic relationships and mentalhealth issues.
She's a single mother and onceher daughter was old enough, she
returned to school to receiveher Master's of Social Work at
the University of SouthernCalifornia.
As a leading expert on addictionand recovery, sherry's TV
appearances include VH1Celebrity Rehab, cnn Inside
(02:09):
Edition, the Robert Irvine Showand Access Live.
She's been featured inCosmopolitan Women's World, the
LA Times, thrive Global, the NewYork Post, marriagecom
Psychology Today, zoosk andother leading publications
Marriagecom, psychology Today,zoosk and other leading
publications.
She's also been a guest on manyserious XM radio shows and
hosted her own podcast calledthe Love Fix.
(02:30):
Sherry is the author of LoveSmacked, in which she addresses
relationship, addiction andcodependency, and is a
contributing writer to the bookChicken Soup for the Soul Tough
Times, tough People.
Sherry maintains a privatepractice for codependents love
the Soul.
Tough Times, tough People.
Sherry maintains a privatepractice for codependents, love
addicts, trauma survivors andthose breaking free from a toxic
relationship.
(02:51):
Hi, sherry, I'm so glad thatyou're able to join us today.
How are you.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I'm great, and thank you, angela, for having me.
I'm really honored and I lovewhat you're doing in the world.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Thank you, sherry.
I'm honestly so excited to haveyou on the show today.
Your work has helped so manypeople put words to patterns
that they didn't even know thatthey were stuck in, especially
when it comes to codependency,love, addiction and trauma.
You have this really groundedand compassionate way of
explaining things that makespeople feel really seen instead
(03:21):
of being judged, and I thinkthat it's so important for the
healing process.
Plus, your own personal journeygoing back to school as a
single mom and now helpingothers who are trying to break
free from toxic patterns is justit's very inspiring, and I know
that my listeners are going toget so much out of your wisdom
and I'm just really grateful tohave you here.
I'm happy to be here, veryhappy to be here, sherry.
(03:45):
One of the traditions on myshow is that we discuss
something that we're gratefulfor, because when we stop and
think about what we're gratefulfor, it helps our brain focus on
the things that are workinginstead of the things that are
broken.
So I'd like to ask if there'sanything that you're especially
grateful for today.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I'm grateful today that I live in beautiful Florida
.
I bought a condo here threeyears ago and I live on the
beautiful ocean and I'm justvery grateful to have this life.
Tomorrow I'm going home to seemy family in California.
I'm grateful for that, ofcourse, but I'm just grateful
for the life that I built I lovethat you get to have some warm
weather year round.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I live in Canada, where it gets pretty darn cold
here sometimes.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, I gotta be by the sun.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, I'd be by the ocean.
Being a Pisces, I'd love to beby the ocean Not a whole lot of
water close to where I am.
So, as far as what I'm gratefulfor, I sanded my deck this
weekend, but the weather wassupposed to be terrible.
It was supposed to rain allweekend and we reserved the
sander a couple weeks ago.
We had to go and get it.
We had rented it and come backhome and figure out how to use
it and all.
We were trying to beat the rainand luckily, I'm actually
(05:00):
really grateful that the rainheld off for a little bit and we
managed to get the job donewith just a couple of raindrops
at the end.
So just yeah, I managed to getthat done.
So that's probably just therain holding off for just a
little bit is what I think I'mreally grateful for right now.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So, to start things off, would you be able to maybe
introduce yourself and tell ushow you came to become such a
powerhouse of a lady.
Well, I'm Sherry Gaba and I'm alicensed clinical social worker
and I've been doing it forabout 30 years.
I don't know if I see myself asa powerhouse.
I know I've done a lot.
Sometimes we don't see whatother people see, but I did have
the opportunity to meet Dr DrewPinsky years ago.
(05:46):
He was a famed addictionologist.
Now he's doing some differentthings podcasts himself, and
he's often on different newschannels.
But at the time he was doingcelebrity rehab and I had the
opportunity to meet him and Ijust said I'm going to be on
that show, like I was reallyinto the law of attraction and I
just put it out there.
And so after the first season Igot invited to be on the
(06:08):
following three seasons or maybefour I'm not sure if it was
three or four and that just gaveme a little bit of a media
background.
I guess you could say mediabuzz.
I ended up writing two books onrecovery and love addiction and
now you know I'm just reallypassionate.
I was very involved inaddiction.
(06:28):
I was married to an alcoholic,I was on the show.
My book is recovery related andthen I just kind of moved into
codependency, love, addiction,trauma and most recently I'm
just very much interested ingenerational trauma and how that
affects us.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So that is my history my wisdom and racial trauma is
a really big, really big fieldand I know it affects a lot of
people.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well, I think after October 7th happened, that was,
you know, what happened inIsrael.
It was a really scary, scaryexperience having Holocaust
surviving families, and it justreally hit me hard.
And then I started searchinginto what happened to my family
during the war and that's justmy story.
There's so many other storiesfor the people in Gaza, for the
(07:12):
people everywhere that they had.
We're going to feel it and I dobelieve that I was experiencing
generational trauma whenOctober 7th happened.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, that's a lot to deal with.
So you've worked with so manypeople who are struggling with
codependency.
Can you walk us through whatthat is and what it's not Sure?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So codependency is a pattern of losing yourself.
In a relationship it can looklike chronic people pleasing
others at your own expense.
It's defining your worth.
Through others you need to feelneeded or wanted.
That's you get all your worth.
Codependents tend to put otherpeople's emotions and needs and
problems ahead of their own.
(08:05):
They don't even realize they'redoing it.
It's so subconscious.
Even codependency can be atransgenerational trauma piece,
depending on your history oryour ancestor's history.
It's a lack of boundaries.
It's really a lack ofconnection to self.
That's the biggest piece losingyourself, abandoning yourself.
You feel responsible for otherpeople's happiness and if
(08:29):
they're not happy you feelguilty, you feel anxious, you
feel shame, especially whenyou're trying to express your
own needs.
You just forget how to expressyour own needs.
You almost feel invisible.
So you struggle with saying no.
You often fear being alone.
You confuse intensity orcaretaking with love.
So love becomes being acaretaker, like I was with my
(08:49):
ex-alcoholic.
But what many don't realize isthat codependency is rooted in
early relational trauma.
My story was I was a preemie.
I was in an incubator.
My mother did not hold me forthree months.
That was another one of myearly traumas, and so that
conditioned me to be lookingalways on the outside, being
very other focused instead ofbeing inwardly focused.
(09:11):
So it's usually a childhoodwhere love may have been
conditional and predictable,fused with responsibility.
You might've been parentified,meaning maybe you had a single
mother.
They treated you like an adult.
So you became like this littlemini adult.
You never again knew what yourneeds were.
So the codependent adapts,being what others want them to
(09:31):
be, and they're very hyper,attuned to other people's moods
and disconnecting from their owninternal world to avoid
abandonment or disapproval.
That would be their worst fearin life.
But the truth is, you know,codependency is not a character
flaw, it's a survival strategyand it can be unlearned with the
proper therapy.
I use IFS, somatic work,nervous system regulation.
(09:54):
By doing these things you canreconnect to your authentic self
and learn how to set healthyboundaries and build
relationships that are mutualand not enmeshed or emotionally
caretaking.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
To be codependent, do you have to be all of those
things that you listed, or justsome of?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
them.
You know, I don't think youhave to be all of them.
I mean you could be codependentin a work relationship.
I mean mine is more intimaterelationships, but no, you don't
have to be all those things.
But the idea is that you'reother-focused, that you're
always thinking of everybodyelse before yourself, and so, no
, not all those things, but manyof those traits.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
How does unresolved trauma play into codependent
behaviors, especially when itcomes to things like
people-pleasing orover-functioning in
relationships?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah Well, most people think of trauma as being
this big dramatic event, and itdoesn't have to be.
Trauma can be very subtle, canbe chronic and it can be really
emotional.
So, like I was saying earlier,if you grew up in a home where
love was conditional, whereemotions weren't safe to express
, that's where you start to feelinvisible, that's where you
become other focused, or whereyou had to take care of others
to feel valued, your nervoussystem adapts to this and then
(11:03):
all your adult relationshipsduplicate that.
So you might've learned todisconnect from your needs,
silent your truth.
People, please you turnyourself into a pretzel.
I did that a lot inrelationships, just to be loved.
I wanted love so badly from themoment I came into this world.
Not having my mother, nothaving that early attachment, it
(11:23):
was all about do you love meout there instead of self-love
inside.
So it's turning yourself intowhat you think others want you
to be to get that love.
So it's a survival strategy andit is rooted for me in
particular and most codependents, in a fear of abandonment, a
fear of being rejected, fear ofbeing too much.
You trade authenticity forconnection.
(11:45):
You trade authenticity forconnection.
You'll just do whatever thatperson wants you to be, so they
don't leave you.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, so you've talked about like codependency
and how that can block you frombeing your authentic self.
So what does that mean to youand how do we show up?
How do we start showing up forourselves?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So it's about that connection again with yourself,
and you have to know how toconnect with yourself and if you
don't, that's where good traumatherapy can help you do that.
But it begins with safety.
Authenticity only emerges whenthe nervous system feels safe
and sometimes you could be outthere with the nicest person,
you could be dating the nicestperson, but it still feels
unsafe because it's unfamiliar.
(12:23):
So it's all about doing all thedifferent modalities that I was
talking about parts work,somatic work, getting you to
connect to those inner parts,the people pleaser, the fixer,
the self-doubter, the part ofyou that fears abandonment, and
just getting them all to show upand loving all those parts
because they weren't flaws, theywere just there to protect you.
(12:44):
So radical authenticity meansreclaiming the parts that were
buried, you know, finding thoseparts that you've stuffed down
for the sake of approval, and itmeans learning to say no
without guilt.
So many of my clients alwaystalk about this guilt they feel
when they step into their truth.
So sharing your truth, even ifthere's risks of disconnection,
(13:05):
because if you're safe withyourself you can do this, but if
you don't feel safe withyourself, you're always going to
be running to the outside ofyourself for that connection.
So it's not a performance, it'sa return and in essence, it's
what happens when we abandonourselves to be loved.
So radical authenticity is whathappens when we love ourselves
enough to really come home toourselves.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I am like a people pleaser and you know I've got my
own traumas that I've dealtwith.
And a couple of years ago ifyou would have asked me who I
was or what I liked, I think Iwould have just been referring
to, like, my job title.
Yeah, but deep down, like I hadno idea who I was and it took a
long time for me to figure thatout.
(13:49):
Is there like what can someonedo if they don't feel like they
know who they are at their core?
Like what would be the steps ingetting to know yourself and
what does that look like?
What do I?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
want, just asking yourself what do I want, even if
it's the wildest ideas you know, like living on the ocean?
I always wanted to live on theocean but it seemed like, oh,
that's just a pipe dream,that'll never happen.
If you want a healthyrelationship, who do you want to
be with?
What would make you feel good?
Maybe you don't want to be in arelationship.
Maybe you don't want to go withthe pressure of what society
(14:22):
tells you.
Maybe you're perfectly happybeing on your own.
I mean really just finallytrying to step away from what
other people have expected ofyou, what you've expected of you
.
And what does my soul long for?
What does it?
Speaker 1 (14:36):
really want.
Yeah, if you've spent your life, you know shapeshifting to be
what other people want you to beand you know doing everything
because you're, you know, sayingthings not wanting to make
anybody else upset, or you'rechanging yourself so other
people are going to like you.
It's really hard to know whatdo you actually want?
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's true, it's just pulling those layers, that's why
therapy is so important toreally get to that, to the
bottom, because it's true youdon't know what your preferences
are.
You just never have given athought because you just want to
be loved so badly You'll bewhatever anybody wants you to be
and, yes, it's a process.
So be compassionate with thatpart of you that doesn't know
yet Say, oh, hi, part, I see you, I know you want to come out
(15:19):
and play and you want to figureout who you are.
I'm here, I've got you.
You know, loving that part ofyou, it's even questioning who
you are.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, we're not very kind to ourselves sometimes.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I love the parts work because it really it brings in
so much compassion, so much loveand compassion for every part
of us, not just I'm this, I'mthat, I'm black, I'm white.
It's loving all of it it's, youknow, it's total radical
self-acceptance, is what it isand that's what we need to.
Really that's part of recoveryfrom codependency.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
To be okay with who you are.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, and it's just accepting what is yes exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah.
What are some of the red flagsthat someone might notice that
indicates that they're caught inthis codependent pattern?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well, what's interesting about codependence
is sometimes they're some of themost angry people because
they've been stuffing theirfeelings for so long.
So do you notice that you getangry easily?
Are you resentful, are youexhausted, are you anxious but
don't know how to stop?
It's not about being too niceor caring too much.
It's about you just are losingyourself completely.
So ask yourself some questions.
(16:28):
Do I feel responsible for otherpeople's feelings or problems?
Do I have a hard time saying no, even when it costs me?
Do I ignore my own needs anddesires or boundaries to avoid
conflict?
That's a biggie avoidingconflict.
I don't want to be rejected.
That's a huge codependent trait.
Do I feel anxious or unworthywhen I'm not helping, when I'm
(16:49):
just in the world and not justfixing and trying to make myself
be needed?
Do I stay in unhealthyrelationships because I fear
being alone?
I mean, those all would bequestions that you could journal
on and just ask yourself.
That might help, you see am Icodependent?
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, I used to definitely be very resentful of
people, or I would blame otherpeople for me being unhappy, but
it truly was, because I wasjust letting people either walk
all over me or I wasn't able toask for the things that I wanted
.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Well, you didn't learn how.
Again, it's all about thatother focus and that's what we
have.
It's the other disease, itreally is, and that's where we
have to kind of turn it aroundand make it about ourselves
what's happening inside of us.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So you wrote the book Love Smacked.
Tell me about the book.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So it's a little bit about love addiction,
codependency and trauma.
Now there is a relationshipbetween love addiction and
codependency.
They can be very intertwinedand so I kind of want people to
understand that there is aconnection.
Love addiction is thatcompulsive pursuit of romantic
intensity.
You could be a romance addict.
You could be a love addict.
(17:58):
You get high on infatuation,fantasy.
Emotional chaos is what you seeas love.
Deep down, it's just againdriven by that fear of
abandonment, fear of rejection,a deep sense of emptiness.
When you think of any addiction, it's trying to fill up that
emptiness, just like drugs oralcohol or any other addiction.
You're trying to fill it up.
(18:19):
The only way you can fill it upis a connection to yourself, a
connection to something greater,but often with people who are
emotionally unavailable orinconsistent.
That is what love addicts,codependents, attract.
So codependence, on the otherhand, is the tendency to focus
on others, like I was talkingabout earlier, at the expense of
others and overgivingpeople-pleasing.
(18:39):
But I think there's just a great, there's a great intertwinement
between the two and there's aloop that happens.
Feel incomplete or unworthy,then you seek out a partner to
fix the emptiness, which is thecodependent piece.
Then you idealize theconnection of the person, which
is the love addiction piece.
Then they pull away, whichtriggers your abandonment, wound
Again another codependent piece, and then you start behaving
(19:06):
dysfunctionally, like tryingharder, turning yourself into a
pretzel to please them, losingyourself, clinging, and this
dynamic becomes sort of a cycleand that's often why
codependents, love addictsattract toxic people.
So that's kind of the loop.
You fall hard and fast, evenwhen there's red flags.
You confuse intensity andchemistry or anxiety with love.
Then you feel anxious or emptyinside or worthless without that
(19:29):
connection and then you keepchoosing, emotionally
unavailable so you can have thatconnection, which means you end
up settling and you abandonyour needs, your boundaries,
your own identity and you feellike you can't stop obsessing
over that person or being in arelationship.
You really feel like it'salmost worse than death to be
alone, and that was how I wasand that's why I had multiple
(19:50):
relationships over and overagain till I finally spent some
time alone with myself and thatall stemmed from being alone in
that incubator and what we knowis we have cell memory and that
was probably a very scary thingfor an infant to not have their
mother's touch.
You know, we know aboutattachment, so obviously I had
major attachment issues andthat's what created the love
(20:12):
addict and codependent in me tobe loved.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So you talked about not having your mother there for
the first couple of months.
Yeah, you know, and sometimesas parents we do things to our
kids, whether you know.
It's probably, maybe it's notintentional or whatnot, but is
there a recovery from that?
So you have some trauma forthose first couple of months,
but is there a way for parentsto make things better going
forward?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Well, for that trauma piece.
Yes, I mean that's when I backin.
I would say it was like 2008 or2009,.
I found a trauma therapist andeven though I was a therapist, I
knew all about talk therapy.
I had no idea, like I knew Iwas different, but I didn't know
what it was.
And then I finally realized, ohmy God, it's inside my body.
I need to release the energythat's in my body that it feels
(20:58):
so empty.
I need to really go back, notlike know every detail of that
infant experience, but feel whatit must have felt like.
And it can be any kind oftrauma.
It could be God forbid you weremolested or your parents went
through a divorce, you wentthrough a tsunami or a fire or
whatever.
You go back to that event andyou discharge that energy in a
(21:20):
very slow, titrated way.
That's somatic work.
You also can start looking atthose parts.
You know, look at that baby,that incubator baby, or look at
the resilience of that baby.
And that is a big part of mystory is that a lot of my
success was, I think, theresilience from that trauma,
which was positive, but therewere other parts that were not
(21:42):
positive, so I had to reallyheal all of it, you know, I mean
because trauma isn't a terriblething.
It can make you like, just likeyourself.
You probably became verysuccessful in your own right
from whatever trauma youexperienced, but you also have
to heal the trauma that is notserving you, and so that's
really.
Those are the steps.
(22:03):
So what?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
are those first steps that people can take if they
recognize that they're in thesecodependent relationships and
you talk about the loop.
So what are the steps that youcan use to get out of that loop?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Again the inner child work, really loving that little
girl inside of you or littleboy inside of you, doing that
parts work, identify that parts,heal those parts.
Really love that people pleaser, rescuer, performer, and then
bring in this thing that we allhave, which is self-energy, our
soul self, our highest versionof ourself, and then we come
(22:37):
from that place in a very calm,curious and compassionate way.
Learn how to regulate yournervous system, self-soothe.
If you don't know how toself-soothe, then you're not
going to want to be alone andyou're going to be always
wanting to fix and control andfind someone to make everything
okay.
So you have to learn to goinward and learn how to regulate
your own nervous system.
(22:58):
If your body learned that loveis unsafe or unpredictable, your
nervous system will always bein survival mode.
So somatic tools like groundingand breath work and
co-regulation teaches your bodythat it's safe to feel, it's
safe to express and to setlimits.
And of course, you got to doyour boundary work, learning how
to set healthy boundaries,learning how to build emotional
(23:20):
tolerance.
Codependents often struggle totolerate the discomfort when
some other people are upset withyou or they're disappointed in
you or they don't like you.
So the real freedom comes whenyou can go.
It's okay.
They don't have to like me,they don't have to.
It's okay as long as I'm beingtrue to myself and then grieving
that old identity.
(23:46):
A big part of healing is justgrieving the roles that you used
to play.
You know I had to grieve beingthe caregiver to the alcoholic,
the fixer, the one who held itall together.
You know the single parent wasa survivor.
I had to sort of heal thatperson.
These all served a purpose, butthey're not the full story of
who you are.
So you get to reclaim all thoseparts, and even the parts that
were silenced, to keep the peaceand bring in the healthy you.
Ultimately breaking free isabout, like I said earlier,
(24:07):
coming home to yourself,learning that you're lovable
without earning it.
You don't have to earn love.
You're safe without having tocontort and you are worthy of
relationships.
That is where you're whole,just the way you are.
You're resourceful, just theway you are.
That is its foundation.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
I had a patient come in and was talking about his
relationship and there was a lotof difficult dynamics in his
relationship and when we weretalking about that and I was
trying to encourage him to getto know himself better and to
work on himself, his firstquestion was do I have to break
up with my relationship?
So is it possible to workthrough your codependency and
(24:48):
stay together in a relationship?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yes, you can absolutely stay in your
relationship If it's a toxicrelationship.
No, and what's really importantis to decipher are my triggers
in this relationship based onthe past or is it based on I'm
with a toxic person?
In other words, you can stillget activated and triggered.
You just have to figure out.
Is it because I'm in a toxiccycle?
(25:11):
And if I'm in a toxic cycle,that usually means there's no
resolving, there's no repair.
If I'm in an activatedrelationship but there's repair,
they're not toxic, they'rerespectful, there's
reciprocation.
You absolutely can be in thatrelationship.
You just have to be aware that,unfortunately, codependents
(25:33):
tend to be in toxicrelationships.
They tend to pick people thatare not the givers, they're
usually the takers.
They can be abusive.
They can be verbally abusive.
And so just be really clear AmI with somebody where there is
repair when there is a rupture?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, it's tough to.
Sometimes it can be hardbecause the other person, like
you, can work on yourself, butyou can't force the other person
to work on themselves.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, and sometimes people can be very manipulative,
like you can work on yourself,but you can't force the other
person to work on themselves.
Yeah, and sometimes people canbe very manipulative.
I was in a relationship withsomeone that kept bringing up my
wounds and they thought of Ijust bring up.
You know, if I bring up herwounds, my wounds, then I can
look really good over here and Idon't have to be accountable
for my wounds or my part.
I'll just keep pointing thefinger at you.
And then, of course, if you'rea codependent, you're going to
(26:22):
go.
Oh yeah, it must be my fault,it must be me, it must be my
wounds.
It can be very insidious thesekinds of relationships.
Again, don't be afraid to be inrelationships.
Just be aware of manipulation.
Gaslighting Even a nice personcan feel triggering if you're
not used to being with a niceperson.
So that's why it's so importantto really know yourself.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Go inward, feel what you need to feel inside.
Regulate yourself because it iseasy to be activated when you
have a history of trauma.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
What role does shame play in keeping people stuck in
toxic or one-sided relationships?
So shame plays a powerful roleoften an invisible role in
keeping people stuck in toxicrelationships.
I think it's pretty much what Iwas just saying.
It tells you that you're theproblem.
You're not good enough that yousomehow deserve the treatment
you're receiving.
Shame convinces you that if youjust try harder, fix yourself,
(27:20):
prove your worth, the otherperson will finally love you.
It's really insidious.
It's very deep In toxicdynamics, especially those
involving emotional abuse ornarcissism.
Shame becomes a controlmechanism where you internalize
the blame for the dysfunctioninstead of them taking
accountability.
So instead of seeing the otherperson's harmful behavior, you
(27:41):
wonder what's wrong.
Again, it always goes back toit must be me.
So shame keeps you silent, itkeeps you isolated, it keeps you
disconnected from your innerknowing and it makes leaving you
feel like you're a failure.
If you leave, you kind ofsecond guess yourself.
That is a huge trauma triggeris second guessing.
So that's why, if any of thisstuff is happening, get a great
trauma therapist Work withsomeone like myself who does the
(28:04):
somatic healing that does theparts work.
That'll really help you sort ofmanage all these parts inside
of you that are confused andsecond guessing and activated.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Can you walk me through what somatic healing
looks like?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, well, if I asked you when you were in some
of your codependent behaviors,what would be an example of one
of those situations where youfelt like you were sort of
pretzel bending for somebody?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
So I repeated the third grade when I was younger
and it was really tough goingback to school.
I didn't have any friends, so Ijust kind of did whatever they
wanted me to do and I would bewhoever they needed me to be.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So what do you notice when you say that?
Where do you feel that?
What is the felt sense in yourbody?
Not maybe what's in your brain,but like, is there any kind of
physical feeling anywhere?
I feel?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
it in my stomach.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah.
So just kind of notice theenergy in your stomach, just
kind of notice what it wants todo, where it wants to go.
Might be a little uncomfortableat first.
Just allowing it, allowing itto just move through you and be
aware of it, watch it move,that's really how you release it
.
It's not really rocket science,it's just watching the energy
(29:23):
move, letting it move, lettingit go where it wants to go
because it actually doesn't wantto be there.
It's actually probably stuckenergy that just really wants to
come out.
Because you know, being in thattype of situation was probably
really really hard and verylonely it was very lonely yeah,
so where does lonely live?
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Pardon, where does my loneliness live?
Uh-huh, it's always in mystomach.
It makes me feel sick yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, so yeah, that's what somatic work is.
It's just, you know, noticingwhere that feeling is and
letting it move.
And then suddenly all of asudden you can people that have
addictions or love addictions orcodependency and you're always
looking outside yourself.
Once you can be inside and notafraid, it's probably really
scary for some people to bereally present with what's
(30:12):
happening in their bodies.
It's not something they're usedto.
I know when I started traumatherapy it was like what, what
do you mean?
Look inside, what are youtalking about?
I had no idea.
I was so disassociated from mybody.
But once you do that, then whenthings happen to you in your
life, you're like oh, I can bein my body, I don't have to
leave my body, I don't have toescape, I don't have to settle
(30:34):
for some, you know, randomperson because I can't be with
me and it's pretty brilliant.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I do have some patients who come in.
You know they've got anxiety,they're feeling chest pain or
you know their stomach's upsetall the time.
You know they're havingdiarrhea all the time because of
their anxiety and maybe that'sjust them not processing things
that are going on.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
That's actually probably in some ways a good
thing that it's coming out.
It can come out in a burp, itcan come out in a fart, it can
come out having diarrhea, it canhave anxieties coming out and
then kind of knowing that andthen just keep you know.
You don't have to talk aboutall the details of the trauma,
like it's not about.
I certainly can't rememberbeing in an incubator, but my
(31:20):
body remembers.
You know, that's the whole ideais our body does remember.
We just may not remember thedetails.
I mean, if you talk to someonewho, god forbid, was molested,
they're maybe not going toremember every detail because
they disassociated, but theirbody is going to remember what
that felt like.
So letting that move not goinginto the details, but just
(31:42):
letting it move and I think it'sthe greatest work ever.
I think it's a little overdoneout there the whole trauma word.
I think everybody just talkstrauma, trauma ever.
I think it's a little overdoneout there the whole trauma word.
I think everybody just talkstrauma, trauma, trauma, trauma.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
I mean it's fine, but I think sometimes it's a little
overdone, without reallyprocessing what that means.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Thank you.
Exactly Like they're bypassingthe trauma.
We're talking about the trauma.
We don't need to talk about it,we just need to experience the
movement of it.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah, We've become good at saying that we have
trauma, but not necessarilymanaging our feelings around it,
or you know how your stomach isfeeling or figuring out where
it stems from.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, Like the intergenerational trauma that
I've become very aware of, iswhy am I stuck?
Why do I keep doing these samebehaviors?
Well, wait a minute.
If I look at the history of myancestors and how they were
persecuted and the things thathappened and again that could be
any population, not just mypopulation or my tribe it makes
(32:40):
sense oh, that's why I'm stuck,that's why I'm a people pleaser,
because that's how my ancestorsdid it.
Yeah, I mean, I even learnedthis.
This was amazing to me.
So I was in a class aboutintergenerational trauma and we
were talking about slaves, andwe always talk about the slaves,
but you know what we never talkabout, and this was just
(33:02):
fascinating to me the peoplethat came from Africa on the
ships, that died on the ships.
Those people we never talkabout population and what
happened to those people andwhere does how did that affect
future generations?
You know what I mean?
The ones that took the journeyon the ships, you know, to this
country.
I mean, it's just, I don't knowany population that hasn't
(33:23):
experienced some kind of trauma.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
We have a large Indigenouspopulation here in Winnipeg,
where I'm from, and justwatching, you know, learning
about some of the traumas thatthey felt when they were taken
away from their families and,you know, put in these
residential schools and itimpacts you for generations to
(33:47):
come and it's heartbreaking and,yeah, it's unfortunate and it
affects many people in manydifferent ways for a long time
(34:10):
system and for ourselves, forfuture generations, and that's
really what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
We're helping future generations.
I noticed, the more I do thiswork, as much as this is going
to sound really weird, mygranddaughter is getting her own
abandonment issues seem to behealing.
It's fascinating.
She had this.
She would call me, she would beafraid when mommy and daddy
went out and she'd want to haveme on the phone.
But she's not doing thatanymore and it's interesting
because I keep doing the workand she's doing her work in a
(34:34):
way.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
That's great.
Well, it's good that it's beingtalked about.
I do think that's an importantstuff.
So what would you say that ahealthy relationship actually
looks like?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Healthy, looks like consistency, without the chase
being seen, without having toperform conflict, that even if
it's uncomfortable, you gothrough it anyway and it's safe
and it's repairable.
It's love that builds slowlyit's not this explosion and
generally the absence of anxiety, but not the absence of passion
.
Calm feels boring.
(35:07):
It's not because something'swrong.
It's because your system wastrained to equate stress with
connection.
But healing is learning andsafety and it isn't dull.
It's peaceful and grounding andvery freeing.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
It can definitely feel much calmer than other
relationships.
There's very little anxietythere, so sometimes it can be
equated to being boring a littlebit little anxiety there, so
sometimes it can be equated tobeing boring a little bit.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Then you talk to that part.
You go oh there, that is again.
I'm looking for that quick,exciting fix.
No, this is okay, boring isgood, this is safe.
And then you have to do someself talk and remind yourself
isn't this really what I want?
Someone that I can count on,someone I can trust, someone
that isn't, you know, going tome, or someone that isn't going
(35:54):
to work on issues?
I mean, that's what we want.
We want something that iseverlasting.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, we all strive to find that relationship and I
think it really starts byworking on yourself and healing
yourself and being the bestversion of yourself that you can
be before you look for thatrelationship.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So true People want to run from that, especially
codependents and love addicts.
They don't want to do that workand if you don't do it, you're
going to keep attracted the same.
I am an example of that.
Sherry, where can we find you?
They can go to SherryGabacom.
I have a free ebook, if theywant to get, that talks about
the connection between traumaand codependency and that's at
(36:41):
SherryGabacom.
Forward slash trauma dash quiz.
It's a quiz to see if they youknow what is there a link
between their codependency andtrauma?
And they get a free ebook andthey want to make an appointment
for a 15-minute consultationwith me.
I'm always available and thatwould be great.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Amazing, so I'm going to put that link in the show
notes to make it easier forpeople to find.
Sherry, I want to thank you forbeing with us today.
Your insight, your honesty andyour heart really came through,
and I know that so many peopleare listening or walking away
feeling a little bit moreunderstood and maybe a little
bit more hopeful.
These are really hardconversations to have sometimes,
(37:17):
but you make them feel safe.
So I want to thank you forsharing your story, your
expertise and for the work thatyou do every day to help people
untangle from these toxicpatterns and to move forward in
their healing.
So it was a gift to have youhere today and I want to thank
you for your time.
You are so welcome Angela.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Thank you again for having me.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Thank you, and thank you to all my faithful listeners
for hanging out with us todayon the Codependent Doctor.
If you liked the episode, I'dlove it if you would click,
follow and share it with someonewho needs to hear it today.
Heck, share it with the wholeworld.
I'd love to help more peopleout.
I'm most active on Facebook atthe Codependent Doctor and
threads and Instagram atdrangeladowney.
I wish you all a great week asyou learn to foster a better
(37:59):
relationship with the mostimportant person in your life
yourself.
I'm gonna talk to you again intwo weeks for another episode of
the Codependent Doctor.
Take care for now You've gotthis.
Thanks for spending time withme today.
I hope something in this episoderesonated with you.
If it did hit, follow,subscribe or share it with
someone who needs to hear ittoday.
(38:20):
The Codependent Doctor is notmedical advice and doesn't
replace speaking to yourhealthcare provider.
If you're in a crisis, pleasego to the nearest ER or call 911
or reach out to your healthcareprovider.
If you're in a crisis, pleasego to the nearest ER or call 911
or reach out to your localmental health helpline.
I'll be back here next weekwith more support stories and
strategies, because we'rehealing together.
If you've ever found yourself stuck in
(00:01):
people-pleasing, constantlyover-giving in relationships or
wondering why you keep losingyourself trying to make someone
else happy, then this episode'sfor you.
I'm joined by the amazing SherryGaba.
She's a psychotherapist, authorof Love Smacked, and a total
powerhouse when it comes tohelping people heal from
codependency, love addiction andtoxic relationships.
(00:22):
We're talking about whatcodependency actually is and
what it's not, how unresolvedtrauma shows up in
over-functioning or emotionalcaretaking and how it can keep
us disconnected from our trueselves.
We also dive into the red flagsof codependent patterns, the
overlap with love addiction and,most importantly, what you can
do to start breaking free, evenif you're still in a
(00:44):
relationship or family dynamicthat's feeding the pattern.
There's so much wisdom packedinto this episode, so grab your
coffee, find a cozy spot andlet's get into it.
Welcome to the CodependentDoctor, a podcast where we
unpack the messy, beautifuljourney of healing from
codependency.
If you're burned out frompeople-pleasing, stuck in
(01:05):
unhealthy patterns or just tiredof putting yourself last,
you're in the right place.
I'm Dr Angela Downey, a familydoctor and fellow codependent,
and I'm here to help youreconnect to your authentic self
.
One honest conversation at atime.
Here we go.
Hello to all my wonderfulpodcast listeners and welcome to
the fourth episode of theCodependent Doctor.
(01:25):
I'm your host, dr Angela Downey, a family doctor and fellow
codependent, here to help usuntangle our patterns, heal our
hearts and reclaim our peace.
Today's episode is a littledifferent, but in the best way
possible, because I'm not flyingsolo today.
I'm joined by Sherry Gaba.
She's a licensedpsychotherapist and life coach
(01:46):
who helps people cope withcodependency, love addiction,
toxic relationships and mentalhealth issues.
She's a single mother and onceher daughter was old enough, she
returned to school to receiveher Master's of Social Work at
the University of SouthernCalifornia.
As a leading expert on addictionand recovery, sherry's TV
appearances include VH1Celebrity Rehab, cnn Inside
(02:09):
Edition, the Robert Irvine Showand Access Live.
She's been featured inCosmopolitan Women's World, the
LA Times, thrive Global, the NewYork Post, marriagecom
Psychology Today, zoosk andother leading publications
Marriagecom, psychology Today,zoosk and other leading
publications.
She's also been a guest on manyserious XM radio shows and
hosted her own podcast calledthe Love Fix.
(02:30):
Sherry is the author of LoveSmacked, in which she addresses
relationship, addiction andcodependency, and is a
contributing writer to the bookChicken Soup for the Soul Tough
Times, tough People.
Sherry maintains a privatepractice for codependents love
the Soul.
Tough Times, tough People.
Sherry maintains a privatepractice for codependents, love
addicts, trauma survivors andthose breaking free from a toxic
relationship.
(02:51):
Hi, sherry, I'm so glad thatyou're able to join us today.
How are you.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I'm great, and thank you, angela, for having me.
I'm really honored and I lovewhat you're doing in the world.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Thank you, sherry.
I'm honestly so excited to haveyou on the show today.
Your work has helped so manypeople put words to patterns
that they didn't even know thatthey were stuck in, especially
when it comes to codependency,love, addiction and trauma.
You have this really groundedand compassionate way of
explaining things that makespeople feel really seen instead
(03:21):
of being judged, and I thinkthat it's so important for the
healing process.
Plus, your own personal journeygoing back to school as a
single mom and now helpingothers who are trying to break
free from toxic patterns is justit's very inspiring, and I know
that my listeners are going toget so much out of your wisdom
and I'm just really grateful tohave you here.
I'm happy to be here, veryhappy to be here, sherry.
(03:45):
One of the traditions on myshow is that we discuss
something that we're gratefulfor, because when we stop and
think about what we're gratefulfor, it helps our brain focus on
the things that are workinginstead of the things that are
broken.
So I'd like to ask if there'sanything that you're especially
grateful for today.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I'm grateful today that I live in beautiful Florida
.
I bought a condo here threeyears ago and I live on the
beautiful ocean and I'm justvery grateful to have this life.
Tomorrow I'm going home to seemy family in California.
I'm grateful for that, ofcourse, but I'm just grateful
for the life that I built I lovethat you get to have some warm
weather year round.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I live in Canada, where it gets pretty darn cold
here sometimes.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, I gotta be by the sun.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, I'd be by the ocean.
Being a Pisces, I'd love to beby the ocean Not a whole lot of
water close to where I am.
So, as far as what I'm gratefulfor, I sanded my deck this
weekend, but the weather wassupposed to be terrible.
It was supposed to rain allweekend and we reserved the
sander a couple weeks ago.
We had to go and get it.
We had rented it and come backhome and figure out how to use
it and all.
We were trying to beat the rainand luckily, I'm actually
(05:00):
really grateful that the rainheld off for a little bit and we
managed to get the job donewith just a couple of raindrops
at the end.
So just yeah, I managed to getthat done.
So that's probably just therain holding off for just a
little bit is what I think I'mreally grateful for right now.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So, to start things off, would you be able to maybe
introduce yourself and tell ushow you came to become such a
powerhouse of a lady.
Well, I'm Sherry Gaba and I'm alicensed clinical social worker
and I've been doing it forabout 30 years.
I don't know if I see myself asa powerhouse.
I know I've done a lot.
Sometimes we don't see whatother people see, but I did have
the opportunity to meet Dr DrewPinsky years ago.
(05:46):
He was a famed addictionologist.
Now he's doing some differentthings podcasts himself, and
he's often on different newschannels.
But at the time he was doingcelebrity rehab and I had the
opportunity to meet him and Ijust said I'm going to be on
that show, like I was reallyinto the law of attraction and I
just put it out there.
And so after the first season Igot invited to be on the
(06:08):
following three seasons or maybefour I'm not sure if it was
three or four and that just gaveme a little bit of a media
background.
I guess you could say mediabuzz.
I ended up writing two books onrecovery and love addiction and
now you know I'm just reallypassionate.
I was very involved inaddiction.
(06:28):
I was married to an alcoholic,I was on the show.
My book is recovery related andthen I just kind of moved into
codependency, love, addiction,trauma and most recently I'm
just very much interested ingenerational trauma and how that
affects us.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So that is my history my wisdom and racial trauma is
a really big, really big fieldand I know it affects a lot of
people.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
Well, I think after October 7th happened, that was,
you know, what happened inIsrael.
It was a really scary, scaryexperience having Holocaust
surviving families, and it justreally hit me hard.
And then I started searchinginto what happened to my family
during the war and that's justmy story.
There's so many other storiesfor the people in Gaza, for the
(07:12):
people everywhere that they had.
We're going to feel it and I dobelieve that I was experiencing
generational trauma whenOctober 7th happened.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, that's a lot to deal with.
So you've worked with so manypeople who are struggling with
codependency.
Can you walk us through whatthat is and what it's not Sure?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So codependency is a pattern of losing yourself.
In a relationship it can looklike chronic people pleasing
others at your own expense.
It's defining your worth.
Through others you need to feelneeded or wanted.
That's you get all your worth.
Codependents tend to put otherpeople's emotions and needs and
problems ahead of their own.
(08:05):
They don't even realize they'redoing it.
It's so subconscious.
Even codependency can be atransgenerational trauma piece,
depending on your history oryour ancestor's history.
It's a lack of boundaries.
It's really a lack ofconnection to self.
That's the biggest piece losingyourself, abandoning yourself.
You feel responsible for otherpeople's happiness and if
(08:29):
they're not happy you feelguilty, you feel anxious, you
feel shame, especially whenyou're trying to express your
own needs.
You just forget how to expressyour own needs.
You almost feel invisible.
So you struggle with saying no.
You often fear being alone.
You confuse intensity orcaretaking with love.
So love becomes being acaretaker, like I was with my
(08:49):
ex-alcoholic.
But what many don't realize isthat codependency is rooted in
early relational trauma.
My story was I was a preemie.
I was in an incubator.
My mother did not hold me forthree months.
That was another one of myearly traumas, and so that
conditioned me to be lookingalways on the outside, being
very other focused instead ofbeing inwardly focused.
(09:11):
So it's usually a childhoodwhere love may have been
conditional and predictable,fused with responsibility.
You might've been parentified,meaning maybe you had a single
mother.
They treated you like an adult.
So you became like this littlemini adult.
You never again knew what yourneeds were.
So the codependent adapts,being what others want them to
(09:31):
be, and they're very hyper,attuned to other people's moods
and disconnecting from their owninternal world to avoid
abandonment or disapproval.
That would be their worst fearin life.
But the truth is, you know,codependency is not a character
flaw, it's a survival strategyand it can be unlearned with the
proper therapy.
I use IFS, somatic work,nervous system regulation.
(09:54):
By doing these things you canreconnect to your authentic self
and learn how to set healthyboundaries and build
relationships that are mutualand not enmeshed or emotionally
caretaking.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
To be codependent, do you have to be all of those
things that you listed, or justsome of?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
them.
You know, I don't think youhave to be all of them.
I mean you could be codependentin a work relationship.
I mean mine is more intimaterelationships, but no, you don't
have to be all those things.
But the idea is that you'reother-focused, that you're
always thinking of everybodyelse before yourself, and so, no
, not all those things, but manyof those traits.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
How does unresolved trauma play into codependent
behaviors, especially when itcomes to things like
people-pleasing orover-functioning in
relationships?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah Well, most people think of trauma as being
this big dramatic event, and itdoesn't have to be.
Trauma can be very subtle, canbe chronic and it can be really
emotional.
So, like I was saying earlier,if you grew up in a home where
love was conditional, whereemotions weren't safe to express
, that's where you start to feelinvisible, that's where you
become other focused, or whereyou had to take care of others
to feel valued, your nervoussystem adapts to this and then
(11:03):
all your adult relationshipsduplicate that.
So you might've learned todisconnect from your needs,
silent your truth.
People, please you turnyourself into a pretzel.
I did that a lot inrelationships, just to be loved.
I wanted love so badly from themoment I came into this world.
Not having my mother, nothaving that early attachment, it
(11:23):
was all about do you love meout there instead of self-love
inside.
So it's turning yourself intowhat you think others want you
to be to get that love.
So it's a survival strategy andit is rooted for me in
particular and most codependents, in a fear of abandonment, a
fear of being rejected, fear ofbeing too much.
You trade authenticity forconnection.
(11:45):
You trade authenticity forconnection.
You'll just do whatever thatperson wants you to be, so they
don't leave you.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, so you've talked about like codependency
and how that can block you frombeing your authentic self.
So what does that mean to youand how do we show up?
How do we start showing up forourselves?
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So it's about that connection again with yourself,
and you have to know how toconnect with yourself and if you
don't, that's where good traumatherapy can help you do that.
But it begins with safety.
Authenticity only emerges whenthe nervous system feels safe
and sometimes you could be outthere with the nicest person,
you could be dating the nicestperson, but it still feels
unsafe because it's unfamiliar.
(12:23):
So it's all about doing all thedifferent modalities that I was
talking about parts work,somatic work, getting you to
connect to those inner parts,the people pleaser, the fixer,
the self-doubter, the part ofyou that fears abandonment, and
just getting them all to show upand loving all those parts
because they weren't flaws, theywere just there to protect you.
(12:44):
So radical authenticity meansreclaiming the parts that were
buried, you know, finding thoseparts that you've stuffed down
for the sake of approval, and itmeans learning to say no
without guilt.
So many of my clients alwaystalk about this guilt they feel
when they step into their truth.
So sharing your truth, even ifthere's risks of disconnection,
(13:05):
because if you're safe withyourself you can do this, but if
you don't feel safe withyourself, you're always going to
be running to the outside ofyourself for that connection.
So it's not a performance, it'sa return and in essence, it's
what happens when we abandonourselves to be loved.
So radical authenticity is whathappens when we love ourselves
enough to really come home toourselves.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I am like a people pleaser and you know I've got my
own traumas that I've dealtwith.
And a couple of years ago ifyou would have asked me who I
was or what I liked, I think Iwould have just been referring
to, like, my job title.
Yeah, but deep down, like I hadno idea who I was and it took a
long time for me to figure thatout.
(13:49):
Is there like what can someonedo if they don't feel like they
know who they are at their core?
Like what would be the steps ingetting to know yourself and
what does that look like?
What do I?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
want, just asking yourself what do I want, even if
it's the wildest ideas you know, like living on the ocean?
I always wanted to live on theocean but it seemed like, oh,
that's just a pipe dream,that'll never happen.
If you want a healthyrelationship, who do you want to
be with?
What would make you feel good?
Maybe you don't want to be in arelationship.
Maybe you don't want to go withthe pressure of what society
(14:22):
tells you.
Maybe you're perfectly happybeing on your own.
I mean really just finallytrying to step away from what
other people have expected ofyou, what you've expected of you
.
And what does my soul long for?
What does it?
Speaker 1 (14:36):
really want.
Yeah, if you've spent your life, you know shapeshifting to be
what other people want you to beand you know doing everything
because you're, you know, sayingthings not wanting to make
anybody else upset, or you'rechanging yourself so other
people are going to like you.
It's really hard to know whatdo you actually want?
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's true, it's just pulling those layers, that's why
therapy is so important toreally get to that, to the
bottom, because it's true youdon't know what your preferences
are.
You just never have given athought because you just want to
be loved so badly You'll bewhatever anybody wants you to be
and, yes, it's a process.
So be compassionate with thatpart of you that doesn't know
yet Say, oh, hi, part, I see you, I know you want to come out
(15:19):
and play and you want to figureout who you are.
I'm here, I've got you.
You know, loving that part ofyou, it's even questioning who
you are.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, we're not very kind to ourselves sometimes.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
I love the parts work because it really it brings in
so much compassion, so much loveand compassion for every part
of us, not just I'm this, I'mthat, I'm black, I'm white.
It's loving all of it it's, youknow, it's total radical
self-acceptance, is what it isand that's what we need to.
Really that's part of recoveryfrom codependency.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
To be okay with who you are.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah, and it's just accepting what is yes exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah.
What are some of the red flagsthat someone might notice that
indicates that they're caught inthis codependent pattern?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Well, what's interesting about codependence
is sometimes they're some of themost angry people because
they've been stuffing theirfeelings for so long.
So do you notice that you getangry easily?
Are you resentful, are youexhausted, are you anxious but
don't know how to stop?
It's not about being too niceor caring too much.
It's about you just are losingyourself completely.
So ask yourself some questions.
(16:28):
Do I feel responsible for otherpeople's feelings or problems?
Do I have a hard time saying no, even when it costs me?
Do I ignore my own needs anddesires or boundaries to avoid
conflict?
That's a biggie avoidingconflict.
I don't want to be rejected.
That's a huge codependent trait.
Do I feel anxious or unworthywhen I'm not helping, when I'm
(16:49):
just in the world and not justfixing and trying to make myself
be needed?
Do I stay in unhealthyrelationships because I fear
being alone?
I mean, those all would bequestions that you could journal
on and just ask yourself.
That might help, you see am Icodependent?
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, I used to definitely be very resentful of
people, or I would blame otherpeople for me being unhappy, but
it truly was, because I wasjust letting people either walk
all over me or I wasn't able toask for the things that I wanted
.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Well, you didn't learn how.
Again, it's all about thatother focus and that's what we
have.
It's the other disease, itreally is, and that's where we
have to kind of turn it aroundand make it about ourselves
what's happening inside of us.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So you wrote the book Love Smacked.
Tell me about the book.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So it's a little bit about love addiction,
codependency and trauma.
Now there is a relationshipbetween love addiction and
codependency.
They can be very intertwinedand so I kind of want people to
understand that there is aconnection.
Love addiction is thatcompulsive pursuit of romantic
intensity.
You could be a romance addict.
You could be a love addict.
(17:58):
You get high on infatuation,fantasy.
Emotional chaos is what you seeas love.
Deep down, it's just againdriven by that fear of
abandonment, fear of rejection,a deep sense of emptiness.
When you think of any addiction, it's trying to fill up that
emptiness, just like drugs oralcohol or any other addiction.
You're trying to fill it up.
(18:19):
The only way you can fill it upis a connection to yourself, a
connection to something greater,but often with people who are
emotionally unavailable orinconsistent.
That is what love addicts,codependents, attract.
So codependence, on the otherhand, is the tendency to focus
on others, like I was talkingabout earlier, at the expense of
others and overgivingpeople-pleasing.
(18:39):
But I think there's just a great, there's a great intertwinement
between the two and there's aloop that happens.
Feel incomplete or unworthy,then you seek out a partner to
fix the emptiness, which is thecodependent piece.
Then you idealize theconnection of the person, which
is the love addiction piece.
Then they pull away, whichtriggers your abandonment, wound
Again another codependent piece, and then you start behaving
(19:06):
dysfunctionally, like tryingharder, turning yourself into a
pretzel to please them, losingyourself, clinging, and this
dynamic becomes sort of a cycleand that's often why
codependents, love addictsattract toxic people.
So that's kind of the loop.
You fall hard and fast, evenwhen there's red flags.
You confuse intensity andchemistry or anxiety with love.
Then you feel anxious or emptyinside or worthless without that
(19:29):
connection and then you keepchoosing, emotionally
unavailable so you can have thatconnection, which means you end
up settling and you abandonyour needs, your boundaries,
your own identity and you feellike you can't stop obsessing
over that person or being in arelationship.
You really feel like it'salmost worse than death to be
alone, and that was how I wasand that's why I had multiple
(19:50):
relationships over and overagain till I finally spent some
time alone with myself and thatall stemmed from being alone in
that incubator and what we knowis we have cell memory and that
was probably a very scary thingfor an infant to not have their
mother's touch.
You know, we know aboutattachment, so obviously I had
major attachment issues andthat's what created the love
(20:12):
addict and codependent in me tobe loved.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
So you talked about not having your mother there for
the first couple of months.
Yeah, you know, and sometimesas parents we do things to our
kids, whether you know.
It's probably, maybe it's notintentional or whatnot, but is
there a recovery from that?
So you have some trauma forthose first couple of months,
but is there a way for parentsto make things better going
forward?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Well, for that trauma piece.
Yes, I mean that's when I backin.
I would say it was like 2008 or2009,.
I found a trauma therapist andeven though I was a therapist, I
knew all about talk therapy.
I had no idea, like I knew Iwas different, but I didn't know
what it was.
And then I finally realized, ohmy God, it's inside my body.
I need to release the energythat's in my body that it feels
(20:58):
so empty.
I need to really go back, notlike know every detail of that
infant experience, but feel whatit must have felt like.
And it can be any kind oftrauma.
It could be God forbid you weremolested or your parents went
through a divorce, you wentthrough a tsunami or a fire or
whatever.
You go back to that event andyou discharge that energy in a
(21:20):
very slow, titrated way.
That's somatic work.
You also can start looking atthose parts.
You know, look at that baby,that incubator baby, or look at
the resilience of that baby.
And that is a big part of mystory is that a lot of my
success was, I think, theresilience from that trauma,
which was positive, but therewere other parts that were not
(21:42):
positive, so I had to reallyheal all of it, you know, I mean
because trauma isn't a terriblething.
It can make you like, just likeyourself.
You probably became verysuccessful in your own right
from whatever trauma youexperienced, but you also have
to heal the trauma that is notserving you, and so that's
really.
Those are the steps.
(22:03):
So what?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
are those first steps that people can take if they
recognize that they're in thesecodependent relationships and
you talk about the loop.
So what are the steps that youcan use to get out of that loop?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Again the inner child work, really loving that little
girl inside of you or littleboy inside of you, doing that
parts work, identify that parts,heal those parts.
Really love that people pleaser, rescuer, performer, and then
bring in this thing that we allhave, which is self-energy, our
soul self, our highest versionof ourself, and then we come
(22:37):
from that place in a very calm,curious and compassionate way.
Learn how to regulate yournervous system, self-soothe.
If you don't know how toself-soothe, then you're not
going to want to be alone andyou're going to be always
wanting to fix and control andfind someone to make everything
okay.
So you have to learn to goinward and learn how to regulate
your own nervous system.
(22:58):
If your body learned that loveis unsafe or unpredictable, your
nervous system will always bein survival mode.
So somatic tools like groundingand breath work and
co-regulation teaches your bodythat it's safe to feel, it's
safe to express and to setlimits.
And of course, you got to doyour boundary work, learning how
to set healthy boundaries,learning how to build emotional
(23:20):
tolerance.
Codependents often struggle totolerate the discomfort when
some other people are upset withyou or they're disappointed in
you or they don't like you.
So the real freedom comes whenyou can go.
It's okay.
They don't have to like me,they don't have to.
It's okay as long as I'm beingtrue to myself and then grieving
that old identity.
(23:46):
A big part of healing is justgrieving the roles that you used
to play.
You know I had to grieve beingthe caregiver to the alcoholic,
the fixer, the one who held itall together.
You know the single parent wasa survivor.
I had to sort of heal thatperson.
These all served a purpose, butthey're not the full story of
who you are.
So you get to reclaim all thoseparts, and even the parts that
were silenced, to keep the peaceand bring in the healthy you.
Ultimately breaking free isabout, like I said earlier,
(24:07):
coming home to yourself,learning that you're lovable
without earning it.
You don't have to earn love.
You're safe without having tocontort and you are worthy of
relationships.
That is where you're whole,just the way you are.
You're resourceful, just theway you are.
That is its foundation.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
I had a patient come in and was talking about his
relationship and there was a lotof difficult dynamics in his
relationship and when we weretalking about that and I was
trying to encourage him to getto know himself better and to
work on himself, his firstquestion was do I have to break
up with my relationship?
So is it possible to workthrough your codependency and
(24:48):
stay together in a relationship?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yes, you can absolutely stay in your
relationship If it's a toxicrelationship.
No, and what's really importantis to decipher are my triggers
in this relationship based onthe past or is it based on I'm
with a toxic person?
In other words, you can stillget activated and triggered.
You just have to figure out.
Is it because I'm in a toxiccycle?
(25:11):
And if I'm in a toxic cycle,that usually means there's no
resolving, there's no repair.
If I'm in an activatedrelationship but there's repair,
they're not toxic, they'rerespectful, there's
reciprocation.
You absolutely can be in thatrelationship.
You just have to be aware that,unfortunately, codependents
(25:33):
tend to be in toxicrelationships.
They tend to pick people thatare not the givers, they're
usually the takers.
They can be abusive.
They can be verbally abusive.
And so just be really clear AmI with somebody where there is
repair when there is a rupture?
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, it's tough to.
Sometimes it can be hardbecause the other person, like
you, can work on yourself, butyou can't force the other person
to work on themselves.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, and sometimes people can be very manipulative,
like you can work on yourself,but you can't force the other
person to work on themselves.
Yeah, and sometimes people canbe very manipulative.
I was in a relationship withsomeone that kept bringing up my
wounds and they thought of Ijust bring up.
You know, if I bring up herwounds, my wounds, then I can
look really good over here and Idon't have to be accountable
for my wounds or my part.
I'll just keep pointing thefinger at you.
And then, of course, if you'rea codependent, you're going to
(26:22):
go.
Oh yeah, it must be my fault,it must be me, it must be my
wounds.
It can be very insidious thesekinds of relationships.
Again, don't be afraid to be inrelationships.
Just be aware of manipulation.
Gaslighting Even a nice personcan feel triggering if you're
not used to being with a niceperson.
So that's why it's so importantto really know yourself.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Go inward, feel what you need to feel inside.
Regulate yourself because it iseasy to be activated when you
have a history of trauma.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
What role does shame play in keeping people stuck in
toxic or one-sided relationships?
So shame plays a powerful roleoften an invisible role in
keeping people stuck in toxicrelationships.
I think it's pretty much what Iwas just saying.
It tells you that you're theproblem.
You're not good enough that yousomehow deserve the treatment
you're receiving.
Shame convinces you that if youjust try harder, fix yourself,
(27:20):
prove your worth, the otherperson will finally love you.
It's really insidious.
It's very deep In toxicdynamics, especially those
involving emotional abuse ornarcissism.
Shame becomes a controlmechanism where you internalize
the blame for the dysfunctioninstead of them taking
accountability.
So instead of seeing the otherperson's harmful behavior, you
(27:41):
wonder what's wrong.
Again, it always goes back toit must be me.
So shame keeps you silent, itkeeps you isolated, it keeps you
disconnected from your innerknowing and it makes leaving you
feel like you're a failure.
If you leave, you kind ofsecond guess yourself.
That is a huge trauma triggeris second guessing.
So that's why, if any of thisstuff is happening, get a great
trauma therapist Work withsomeone like myself who does the
(28:04):
somatic healing that does theparts work.
That'll really help you sort ofmanage all these parts inside
of you that are confused andsecond guessing and activated.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Can you walk me through what somatic healing
looks like?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, well, if I asked you when you were in some
of your codependent behaviors,what would be an example of one
of those situations where youfelt like you were sort of
pretzel bending for somebody?
Speaker 1 (28:30):
So I repeated the third grade when I was younger
and it was really tough goingback to school.
I didn't have any friends, so Ijust kind of did whatever they
wanted me to do and I would bewhoever they needed me to be.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
So what do you notice when you say that?
Where do you feel that?
What is the felt sense in yourbody?
Not maybe what's in your brain,but like, is there any kind of
physical feeling anywhere?
I feel?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
it in my stomach.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah.
So just kind of notice theenergy in your stomach, just
kind of notice what it wants todo, where it wants to go.
Might be a little uncomfortableat first.
Just allowing it, allowing itto just move through you and be
aware of it, watch it move,that's really how you release it
.
It's not really rocket science,it's just watching the energy
(29:23):
move, letting it move, lettingit go where it wants to go
because it actually doesn't wantto be there.
It's actually probably stuckenergy that just really wants to
come out.
Because you know, being in thattype of situation was probably
really really hard and verylonely it was very lonely yeah,
so where does lonely live?
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Pardon, where does my loneliness live?
Uh-huh, it's always in mystomach.
It makes me feel sick yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, so yeah, that's what somatic work is.
It's just, you know, noticingwhere that feeling is and
letting it move.
And then suddenly all of asudden you can people that have
addictions or love addictions orcodependency and you're always
looking outside yourself.
Once you can be inside and notafraid, it's probably really
scary for some people to bereally present with what's
(30:12):
happening in their bodies.
It's not something they're usedto.
I know when I started traumatherapy it was like what, what
do you mean?
Look inside, what are youtalking about?
I had no idea.
I was so disassociated from mybody.
But once you do that, then whenthings happen to you in your
life, you're like oh, I can bein my body, I don't have to
leave my body, I don't have toescape, I don't have to settle
(30:34):
for some, you know, randomperson because I can't be with
me and it's pretty brilliant.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I do have some patients who come in.
You know they've got anxiety,they're feeling chest pain or
you know their stomach's upsetall the time.
You know they're havingdiarrhea all the time because of
their anxiety and maybe that'sjust them not processing things
that are going on.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
That's actually probably in some ways a good
thing that it's coming out.
It can come out in a burp, itcan come out in a fart, it can
come out having diarrhea, it canhave anxieties coming out and
then kind of knowing that andthen just keep you know.
You don't have to talk aboutall the details of the trauma,
like it's not about.
I certainly can't rememberbeing in an incubator, but my
(31:20):
body remembers.
You know, that's the whole ideais our body does remember.
We just may not remember thedetails.
I mean, if you talk to someonewho, god forbid, was molested,
they're maybe not going toremember every detail because
they disassociated, but theirbody is going to remember what
that felt like.
So letting that move not goinginto the details, but just
(31:42):
letting it move and I think it'sthe greatest work ever.
I think it's a little overdoneout there the whole trauma word.
I think everybody just talkstrauma, trauma ever.
I think it's a little overdoneout there the whole trauma word.
I think everybody just talkstrauma, trauma, trauma, trauma.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
I mean it's fine, but I think sometimes it's a little
overdone, without reallyprocessing what that means.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Thank you.
Exactly Like they're bypassingthe trauma.
We're talking about the trauma.
We don't need to talk about it,we just need to experience the
movement of it.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah, We've become good at saying that we have
trauma, but not necessarilymanaging our feelings around it,
or you know how your stomach isfeeling or figuring out where
it stems from.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, Like the intergenerational trauma that
I've become very aware of, iswhy am I stuck?
Why do I keep doing these samebehaviors?
Well, wait a minute.
If I look at the history of myancestors and how they were
persecuted and the things thathappened and again that could be
any population, not just mypopulation or my tribe it makes
(32:40):
sense oh, that's why I'm stuck,that's why I'm a people pleaser,
because that's how my ancestorsdid it.
Yeah, I mean, I even learnedthis.
This was amazing to me.
So I was in a class aboutintergenerational trauma and we
were talking about slaves, andwe always talk about the slaves,
but you know what we never talkabout, and this was just
(33:02):
fascinating to me the peoplethat came from Africa on the
ships, that died on the ships.
Those people we never talkabout population and what
happened to those people andwhere does how did that affect
future generations?
You know what I mean?
The ones that took the journeyon the ships, you know, to this
country.
I mean, it's just, I don't knowany population that hasn't
(33:23):
experienced some kind of trauma.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
We have a large Indigenouspopulation here in Winnipeg,
where I'm from, and justwatching, you know, learning
about some of the traumas thatthey felt when they were taken
away from their families and,you know, put in these
residential schools and itimpacts you for generations to
(33:47):
come and it's heartbreaking and,yeah, it's unfortunate and it
affects many people in manydifferent ways for a long time
(34:10):
system and for ourselves, forfuture generations, and that's
really what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
We're helping future generations.
I noticed, the more I do thiswork, as much as this is going
to sound really weird, mygranddaughter is getting her own
abandonment issues seem to behealing.
It's fascinating.
She had this.
She would call me, she would beafraid when mommy and daddy
went out and she'd want to haveme on the phone.
But she's not doing thatanymore and it's interesting
because I keep doing the workand she's doing her work in a
(34:34):
way.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
That's great.
Well, it's good that it's beingtalked about.
I do think that's an importantstuff.
So what would you say that ahealthy relationship actually
looks like?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Healthy, looks like consistency, without the chase
being seen, without having toperform conflict, that even if
it's uncomfortable, you gothrough it anyway and it's safe
and it's repairable.
It's love that builds slowlyit's not this explosion and
generally the absence of anxiety, but not the absence of passion
.
Calm feels boring.
(35:07):
It's not because something'swrong.
It's because your system wastrained to equate stress with
connection.
But healing is learning andsafety and it isn't dull.
It's peaceful and grounding andvery freeing.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
It can definitely feel much calmer than other
relationships.
There's very little anxietythere, so sometimes it can be
equated to being boring a littlebit little anxiety there, so
sometimes it can be equated tobeing boring a little bit.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Then you talk to that part.
You go oh there, that is again.
I'm looking for that quick,exciting fix.
No, this is okay, boring isgood, this is safe.
And then you have to do someself talk and remind yourself
isn't this really what I want?
Someone that I can count on,someone I can trust, someone
that isn't, you know, going tome, or someone that isn't going
(35:54):
to work on issues?
I mean, that's what we want.
We want something that iseverlasting.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, we all strive to find that relationship and I
think it really starts byworking on yourself and healing
yourself and being the bestversion of yourself that you can
be before you look for thatrelationship.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
So true People want to run from that, especially
codependents and love addicts.
They don't want to do that workand if you don't do it, you're
going to keep attracted the same.
I am an example of that.
Sherry, where can we find you?
They can go to SherryGabacom.
I have a free ebook, if theywant to get, that talks about
the connection between traumaand codependency and that's at
(36:41):
SherryGabacom.
Forward slash trauma dash quiz.
It's a quiz to see if they youknow what is there a link
between their codependency andtrauma?
And they get a free ebook andthey want to make an appointment
for a 15-minute consultationwith me.
I'm always available and thatwould be great.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Amazing, so I'm going to put that link in the show
notes to make it easier forpeople to find.
Sherry, I want to thank you forbeing with us today.
Your insight, your honesty andyour heart really came through,
and I know that so many peopleare listening or walking away
feeling a little bit moreunderstood and maybe a little
bit more hopeful.
These are really hardconversations to have sometimes,
(37:17):
but you make them feel safe.
So I want to thank you forsharing your story, your
expertise and for the work thatyou do every day to help people
untangle from these toxicpatterns and to move forward in
their healing.
So it was a gift to have youhere today and I want to thank
you for your time.
You are so welcome Angela.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Thank you again for having me.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Thank you, and thank you to all my faithful listeners
for hanging out with us todayon the Codependent Doctor.
If you liked the episode, I'dlove it if you would click,
follow and share it with someonewho needs to hear it today.
Heck, share it with the wholeworld.
I'd love to help more peopleout.
I'm most active on Facebook atthe Codependent Doctor and
threads and Instagram atdrangeladowney.
I wish you all a great week asyou learn to foster a better
(37:59):
relationship with the mostimportant person in your life
yourself.
I'm gonna talk to you again intwo weeks for another episode of
the Codependent Doctor.
Take care for now You've gotthis.
Thanks for spending time withme today.
I hope something in this episoderesonated with you.
If it did hit, follow,subscribe or share it with
someone who needs to hear ittoday.
(38:20):
The Codependent Doctor is notmedical advice and doesn't
replace speaking to yourhealthcare provider.
If you're in a crisis, pleasego to the nearest ER or call 911
or reach out to your healthcareprovider.
If you're in a crisis, pleasego to the nearest ER or call 911
or reach out to your localmental health helpline.
I'll be back here next weekwith more support stories and
strategies, because we'rehealing together.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.