October 29, 2025 • 40 mins
What if helping someone you love is actually hurting you? In this episode, Donna Marston shares her journey as a mother of a child in active addiction—and how she learned to set boundaries, release shame, and reclaim her life.
We talk about the difference between support and enabling, the grief of parenting through addiction, and how healing begins when you choose yourself.
Learn more at www.sharingwithoutshame.com
Grab her free resource: 5 Boundaries and Breakthroughs
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📗 My Books: Enough as I Am (codependency recovery) Enough as I Grow (365 day guide journal). Affiliate disclosure: I am an affiliate parner with Amazon and therefore receive a commission at no cost to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Before we dive in today, I want you to take a deep
breath because this episode isprobably going to hit close to
home for a lot of you.
We're talking about the kind ofhelping that slowly drains you.
The kind done out of fear,guilt, and love all tangled
together.
We're going to hear about theemotional toll of loving someone
through addiction, what itreally means to set boundaries
(00:21):
without shame, and how to startreclaiming your life, even if
you've lost yourself along theway.
If you've ever felt like helpingsomeone meant abandoning
yourself, this episode is foryou.
So let's get into it.
Welcome to the CodependentDoctor, a podcast where we
unpack the messy, beautifuljourney of healing from
codependency.
If you're burned out from peoplepleasing, stuck in unhealthy
(00:43):
patterns, or just tired ofputting yourself last, you're in
the right place.
I'm Dr.
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, and I'm
here to help you reconnect toyour authentic self, one honest
conversation at a time.
Here we go.
Hello to all my wonderfulpodcast listeners, and welcome
to the 60th episode of theCodependent Doctor.
(01:03):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, here to
help us untangle our patterns,heal our hearts, and reclaim our
peace.
For today's episode, we have aguest with us.
Donna Marsden is a certifiedrecovery support worker, energy
healer, and founder of SharingWithout Shame.
Drawing from her personaljourney as a mother of a child
(01:24):
in active addiction, sheempowers families to heal, set
healthy boundaries, and reclaimtheir lives.
Donna is also the author of fourbooks and is sought-after
speaker and workshop facilitatorin the recovery and wellness
community.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
Welcome, Donna.
How are you doing today?
I'm good.
Thanks, and thank you for havingme.
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
I'm grateful to have you on the show.
Your story is one that so manyof my listeners are going to be
able to see themselves in,especially those who've poured
everything that they have intohelping someone that they love
only to lose pieces ofthemselves along the way.
The way that you speak aboutshame and boundaries and
reclaiming identity is reallyhealing.
And I know a lot of people aregoing to resonate with that.
(02:04):
So I'm honored to have you inour space.
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Thank you.
I'm honored to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (02:08):
Donna, one of my traditions on the show is that
we discussed what we're gratefulfor because when we stop and
think about what we're gratefulfor, it helps our brains focus
on what's working instead ofwhat's missing or what's broken.
So I'd like to ask you, is thereanything that you're especially
grateful for today?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Well, I'm I'm grateful for the journey that I
have been on that started withmy son's addiction when he was
15 years old and who's now he'sgonna be 43.
Because there was a lot of bumpsand bruises, a lot of heartache,
tears in the fetal position.
But what it did, it showed mehow resilient I am.
(02:45):
I found I have a strength Inever knew I had.
And it brings has brought me toa place where I'm able to take
what once was my mess and makeit my message in hopes to help
other parents and family memberswho love somebody in active
addiction.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
That takes a lot of healing to get to where you're
at right now.
That is a long journey, and umyeah, you've definitely done a
lot of work to be able to get towhere you're at.
For myself, my my dad had aheart attack like two days ago,
and um it is just shocking to mebecause my dad, he's my
superman, and I'm just sograteful that that he's okay.
(03:24):
It's shocking how how life, it'syou know, it's not this infinite
thing, and things change so fastsometimes.
And we had a bunch of stuffplanned for the day, and you
know, we'd been stressing overgetting all these things ready.
And as soon as my my mom calledto say that my dad was in the
hospital, he'd had a heartattack, everything just went
(03:46):
away.
And that was my my mainpriority.
It's a little scary, but I'm I'mgrateful he's well, and I thank
all the staff, you know, who areable to help him.
And um yeah, I'm I'm glad thathe's still with us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
I was there many, many years ago with my father,
so I I know what that feelslike, and it's not a good time.
SPEAKER_02 (04:04):
But no, but I'm grateful that everything worked
out okay.
Let's start by having youintroduce yourself and tell us
about your journey.
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Well, my name's Donna Marston, and I have a son
who's a person in long-termrecovery.
And as I mentioned earlier, itbrought me to my knees when I
found out.
For the first five years, Isuspected something was wrong,
but I didn't know what it was.
So it went on for 10 years.
So 15 to 20, I suspected.
You know, mother's instinct.
(04:33):
One thing, listen to your gut,believe it, because we're
usually our gut instinct tellsus the truth.
The last five years was anabsolute nightmare.
It's when I found out um he wasan active addiction.
I thought as a mom I could savehim, I could love him into
recovery.
I found out that I couldn't.
It's a horrible, horrible thingto live with when you're
(04:56):
watching your child slowly killthemselves and there's nothing
you can do.
And so this journey, as I said,it brought me to my knees, but
it also brought me on aspiritual journey that I never
thought that I would go on,which helped me.
I didn't do the traditional AlAnon and that sort of stuff.
Well, I I didn't, I didn't.
Um, and the reason I didn't,because when I went to Al-Anon,
(05:19):
they kept telling me to comeback, and in my mind, I didn't
raise my son like this.
And so just give me the answerso I can go home and save him.
Because my kid's not like yourkid, just just so you know.
Right?
A mother's denial is a wonderfulthing.
And and so, um, and it it was avery lonely place because your
(05:40):
phone stops ringing, it's likeyou have cooties and people
don't want to be associatedbecause if they you know the
kids hang out, and so you know,you're kind of blackballed a
little bit.
So there's all these emotionsand stumbling and trying to
figure this out and in rescuemode.
Uh, you know, we're in fight orflight mode 24-7, and what
happens is we get depleted.
(06:01):
And so when that happens, wehave nothing less left to give.
And I just I made a mess becauseI didn't know better.
And and it took me years ofheartache and and and like
punches to the gut, you know,emotional punches to the gut,
for me to to get to a placewhere I hit my enough.
(06:25):
And when I hit my enough, I wasable to start working on me.
And the way I did it is I saw aum an emotional scale, and it
was number one to twenty two,and I was twenty two, I was
bottom of the list, and Ithought, how did I get here?
What what brought me to thisplace?
(06:45):
And um, and that's what made merealize how emotionally sick I
was.
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
So, what was the moment that you realized that
helping your son was starting tocost you your own well-being?
Was there one big triggeringevent?
SPEAKER_00 (06:59):
Yes.
We had a bad day, and yeah, Iwas always very close to my son.
And he had said to me once, hegoes, Mom, as much as I love
you, when I need to get high,stay out of my way.
Because I will walk over you, Iwill step on you to get to go
get high.
And this particular day, this ishow sick I was.
(07:20):
I went out and bought a redlight, it's like therapy that
you use, using these redinfrared lights, and it's
supposed to help people withcravings to calm them down.
And so I wanted to give him asession because I knew something
was going on, and I knew heneeded to get out.
And so that so this is how itstarted to snowball.
And um the phone rang, my gutsaid this isn't good.
(07:42):
I felt like it was a drug deal,uh it was, and he he went to
leave, and it it got it justwasn't pleasant, and and um he
got a little physical with me,which is highly unusual for him.
And he left and we was missingfor about eight hours, and then
Saturday night was always datenight with my husband.
And so we were getting ready togo out for dinner, and my son
(08:05):
came in and I was so happy, Iwas like, So I told his dad he's
home, let's take him to dinner,and he said, I'm not sitting
across the table from from him.
He's high, I don't want any partof it, and figure it out because
I can't do this with youanymore.
And as I'm walking down thestairs, calling him every name
in the book in my head, by thetime I got to the bottom of the
(08:25):
stairs there was some clarity.
And I gave him a a note and Isaid, Listen, this place has a
bed.
I can't do this with youanymore.
Like I I'm empty, I'memotionally and financially
depleted, and I hope you'll getthe help that you need.
And he did.
He ended up going to treatmentthe next day, which was Mother's
Day.
(08:45):
But I also found out eight yearslater, I think it was eight
years later, that he tried tocommit suicide that night.
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
And um after you kind of set a boundary with him.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
When I set a boundary, he tried to take his
life by overdosing.
And when he woke up, he thought,well, maybe there's a plan and
maybe I should go to treatment.
So Mother's Day of 2008 was thegreatest gift.
Because that's when he went totreatment and he's been in
recovery ever since.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
So it was just that that one night everything
started happening and you setthat boundary, and that was the
only way that he made a change.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Yeah, and and to be you know, to be perfectly honest
for for your listeners, he wentto get me off his back.
He didn't go because he wantedtreatment.
And that's how it rolled withhim.
He was in and out of treatment,and when I I was getting too
close or too heavy or too tootoo much in his face or
whatever, that's when he wouldgo that's when he would go to
treatment.
And and then he'd go totreatment, and then within, you
(09:44):
know, he'd slowly start usingagain.
One of his treatments he starteddrinking that that night.
Because drinking for my sonwould weaken his senses, so he'd
go back to out to heroin.
He was an Ivy heroin user.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
You've talked about helping and unhelp unhealthy
helping.
So can you explain thedistinction between them and how
it tends to show up in in theparent-child dynamics?
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
Yeah.
So over the years, you know,people used to say, you're an
enabler, you're doing this, andyou're doing that, and you're
codependent, blah, blah, blah.
That is shameful language.
And people were shaming me forloving my son so much, for
trying to parent him as ateenager and a young adult.
(10:29):
I was doing my job because Itook it serious.
I don't like those words.
I don't like that we shame andblame parents for loving their
kids.
So I had taken a class throughthis craft program, and it's
about using love and beingkinder.
And and so instead of callingsaying to somebody, oh, that's
codependent behavior or that'senabling, let's talk about
(10:52):
unhealthy helping.
What does that look like?
I'll see their their theirshoulders are all relaxed,
they're not so uptight, and youknow, an unhealthy helping is
doing for your loved one whatthey can and should do for
themselves.
Period.
It's just that simple.
What worked for me may not workfor somebody else.
Everybody's unhealthy helping isdifferent.
I have parents that do drugdeals with their kids because
(11:15):
they think they're keeping themsafe.
They keep they think allowingthem to do drugs in their home
will keep them alive.
That's unhealthy helping.
Because many times they havefound their children dead in the
morning.
And and how do you live withthat?
That guilt.
And plus you're you'reparticipating in a drug deal.
They're putting yourself in areally scary situation that
(11:38):
could cause some legalramifications.
So unhealthy helping basicallyis doing for them what they
could and should do forthemselves.
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
What are some healthy helping mechanisms?
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
Setting boundaries.
So I'll give you an example.
So there was this mom that usedto come to my um, I used to run
um Family Sharing Without Shamesupport groups in New Hampshire.
I had two in different parts ofthe state that I ran.
And so her son was homeless.
He was I think I want to sayearly twenties maybe.
And she was remarried.
(12:09):
Stepdad did not want him in thehouse.
And she's beside herself.
I I want to make sure he's he'seating, blah, blah, blah.
And it was summertime.
And I said, Well, did did yourhusband say he could he couldn't
come on the property?
Or did he say he can only not bein the house?
She said, No, he n didn't eversay anything about the property.
He just said he can't be in thehouse.
(12:36):
You know, you and you make ameal and you bring it out to a
picnic table, and you can havefeed him and then send him on
his way.
You don't give him money, butyou might give him a blanket,
you know, something to keep himwarm or cool, or maybe uh uh
some ice in a bucket, a cooler.
Things like that.
That's being supportive, butyou're not giving money that
they can use some drugs.
(12:56):
You don't give them anythingthat they can sell for drugs.
My son was so creative that hewould go my husband had a
business, so he would go fill upmy husband's truck, and I could
see the the receipt and itmatched the bank account, same
thing.
In his recovery, he explained tome he was meeting his dealers at
the at the gas station.
(13:17):
He was filling up their carswith the gas in exchange for
drugs.
Okay.
They're very creative, andthey're always three or maybe
ten steps ahead of us.
That's why you don't give thembank cards or um merchandise
cards or anything like that.
Anything like that they cansell.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
Okay.
So what other forms of enablingare there?
So you talk about don't givethem money, things that they can
sell.
What are other ways that weenable people?
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Um with just anything or just talking with
with drugs.
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
With any kind of addiction.
SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
Yeah.
I mean we pay their bills, wepay their mortgages, we, you
know, reel them out of jail, weum I mean, anything that you can
possibly imagine that you'resupposed to do as an adult, we
do for them, thinking that we'rehelping.
And what it what it actually isis we're prolonging their
(14:10):
addiction, we're helping prolongtheir addiction.
So I'd pay my car my son's carpayment, uh, we would pay his
rent or his bills or whatever,you know, bail him out of jail,
did it all.
I did, my husband didn't.
It was all on me.
And so and I'd walk oneggshells, you know, because I
was afraid if I said the wrongthing, I would be his excuse why
(14:33):
he needed to go get high.
So, you know, I would try to zipmy lip, not rock the boat, and
try to love him so we'd he wouldwant to be in recovery, and but
then there were times where Icouldn't keep my mouth shut and
I would say things trying toshame and blame him into
recovery.
And that doesn't work either.
(14:54):
There's this craziness, there'sthis insanity that goes on.
And it's a cat and mouse chase.
There's a thing called the cycleof addiction.
And when my son is newly in inactive addiction, my gut's
going, Mm, something's off.
And as the allergy of the bodyand the obsession of the mind
start to take over on him, mybody's ramping up, going,
(15:15):
Something's really wrong.
And then he's, you know, goesout on binges, and now I'm
getting angry because I don'tknow where he is, and
something's like really, reallywrong.
And then natural consequencesstart.
He gets arrested, right?
Or he goes to treatment.
And when he gets arrested, hehas the same name as his father.
His father was in the carbusiness, and my son got
(15:37):
arrested once for going intounlocked vehicles and you know,
getting stuff out of those.
And they have this big headline,they don't say he's 18 years
old, they don't say he's ajunior.
And you know, there's there'sthat humiliation.
So there's all this stuff thatyou that you do to protect them
and thinking it's all in thename of love, but really it's um
(16:02):
it's enabling their addiction.
And again, we walk on eggshells.
SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
Yeah.
If you have a child who's livingin your home, your son his
addiction started kind of whenhe was 15, but that it continued
after.
So once they're 18, you know,they're not contributing to the
household bills.
They're not, they don't have ajob, let's say.
All their money goes um to todrugs, they're not contributing
to bills or rent or anythinglike that.
I can't imagine what things mustbe going through your mind when
(16:29):
you're like, I my child lives inmy home, he's not paying rent.
How do you kick him out?
I can't imagine being in asituation like that.
Is that something that you'veever had to face?
SPEAKER_00 (16:40):
No.
He would he would move out onhis own and I would help him,
and I couldn't get him out quickenough.
But it's a different worry whenthey're not under your roof.
But then there is a time, andhere's my self-centeredness.
I wanted him to live under ourroof so I could keep an eye on
him.
I needed to know he was alive.
Because when he wasn't livingwith us, that wonder of where
(17:00):
the heck is he?
What's he doing tonight?
Is he safe?
It's horrible.
It's uh it just you're justnever in peace, whether they're
living with you or not livingwith you.
But an important thing to note,this is uh I can only talk for
New Hampshire, but I had parentswho would try to evict their
kids, adult children.
What we learned is that whenyour adult child lives with you,
(17:25):
that you should have anagreement.
You should have a um, theyshould pay at least like ten
dollars a week something, amonetary amount, and have an
agreement.
You can do I do a family livingagreement, and on it, they are a
tenant at will or a guest in thehome.
And that way you can eject themout of the house.
(17:46):
Right.
You can do an ejection, not aneviction.
So it's really important forpeople to know that if their
bills are coming to your houseor you know they're contributing
a little bit, you cannot justevict them.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
So I can only imagine having somebody who's
got an addiction, um, a drug oralcohol or whatever addiction in
your home, how disruptive thatmust be for other family members
who are living in your home.
SPEAKER_00 (18:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
Yeah, your entire family life starts revolving
around that one person.
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
Well, uh, you take on family roles.
So I was the unhealthy helper,and then I have another child,
and so he he at some times mighthave been the scapegoat with the
angry child that's in the house,or the lost child who just kind
of gets out of the way and staysquiet, and then there's the
mascot, the one that's alwaysmaking jokes about everything
(18:41):
and make make jokes about theperson who's an active
addiction, which m only enhancestheir shame or it gets messy.
So I think there's like six orseven roles that we all take on,
and what it is is we're tryingto balance the family.
And so if you can think of likea three-legged chair, my son's
sitting on that, standing onthat chair, I'm standing in
(19:04):
front of him and he has hishands on my my shoulders because
I'm the unhealthy helper, so I'mkeeping him balanced.
And then my husband, my otherchild, or depending on how many
family members, we're all likecircling around, and everybody's
trying to get my attention.
I'm the mom.
Right?
I'm the wife.
(19:25):
And and it just it the wholefamily dynamic gets out of
sorts.
And and then this the sobersiblings, they're hurt too.
And they don't often they're notold enough sometimes to have the
verbal skills to tell you whatemotions they're feeling, and
and we forget about them.
I was so hyper focused on savingmy son from his addiction that I
(19:49):
wasn't available for anybodyelse that was healthy in my
life.
And there's a lot of guilt thatI carried when I figured that
out.
Because how unfair was that.
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (19:58):
And all these other family members who are taking on
these roles, they startdeveloping codependent patterns
themselves.
They're no longer allowed to bechildren, they're having to
parent somebody else or or besomething for somebody else.
You know, it affects theirfuture lives.
Shame is this like invisiblethread that is tying us to
codependent patterns.
(20:19):
How are some of the ways thatshame showed up in your life and
what helped you begin tountangle from that?
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
Well, the shame is like, you know, I was like a
prisoner in my house.
I didn't want to go out, youknow, because people look at
you.
People when people find out youhave a child, an active
addiction, they say some of themeanest things to you.
It's horrible.
SPEAKER_02 (20:41):
Like other people are saying these things to you.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:45):
And the thing is, some of them I knew that their
kids were doing the same thing.
SPEAKER_02 (20:48):
Maybe they just didn't know about it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, yeah.
It's uh it's just you know, it'sjust real hard stuff.
But shame shame is like a balland chain around your ankle or
handcuffs, right?
It just keeps you just down andout and until I was able to work
past it and realize hey, I'm notthe one doing this stuff.
(21:13):
I can't make my son do drugs.
I can't I'm not that powerful.
And so it's not my thing.
It's not my problem.
It's I have nothing to beashamed of.
My son has a brain disorder, hisbrain functions differently,
it's wired differently thanmine.
Period.
And and that I think it's timethat they have a team of
(21:34):
doctors, just like anybody whohas a heart condition or has uh
diabetes or anything like that,because it's it just affects
their brain.
Like I said, their brains arewired differently than ours.
SPEAKER_02 (21:49):
One of the things that often gets overlooked is
this silent grief of lovingsomeone with an with an active
addiction.
So how did that grief show upfor you?
SPEAKER_00 (22:00):
It kept me just in a place of this perfect sadness,
you know.
Um you there's a there's therereally is broken heart syndrome,
and all of this stuff just pileson, and you just get sicker and
sicker and sicker emotionally.
We mimic each other's behaviorin a way that when my son's an
(22:24):
active addiction, I'm active inmy unhealthy helping, right?
And it's like this triangle.
It's just coming out right.
There we go.
And so at the top of thetriangle, I enter it, and I'm
gonna be his rescuer, and I'mgonna rescue him from the
dealers, from himself, from hisdrugs.
And when I work harder doingthat, and it doesn't work, and
(22:47):
then I go down to the thebottom, and now, you know, I'm
the victim.
How could this happen to me?
You know, what did I do todeserve this?
If you know, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
And when I get sick of beingemotionally sick, then I become
the the persecutor.
You SOB, how dare you do this toyour father and I.
We've given you a good life.
(23:08):
You had a you had a nicehousehold, we didn't we weren't,
you know, abusive, we didn'tswear around our children.
We're parents who showed up.
And when I couldn't bring him tohis knees and get him sober, I
would ping around in thattriangle.
Well, my son's in the sametriangle.
He's at one point of it and he'strying to detox himself.
(23:28):
I think he has the flu.
He's up in his room, and whenthat doesn't work and he has
another craving, he goes to be,you know, into victim role.
If there was a God, thiswouldn't be happening to me.
And when he gets sick of beingsick, then he becomes a
persecutor.
And who does he persecute?
The unhealthy helper.
If you bought me designerclothes in sixth grade, I
wouldn't have been bullied.
If you did this for me, Iwouldn't have had to do this.
(23:50):
If you did this, if you did, andit's all my fault.
So we mimic each other'sbehaviors.
SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
How do you get out of that pattern?
SPEAKER_00 (23:58):
It's like a hula hoop.
You gotta stop and drop.
You know, the hula hoop has allour crap hanging off of it.
Every um I have all my son'sstuff that I've added to my hula
hoop along with my own emotionalstuff.
And at one point I hit my enoughwhen I saw that emotional scale,
I dropped my hula hoop and Istepped outside.
(24:18):
I picked up one thing, and forthat day, just that day, I
started to work on me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
And how did you do that?
Did you contact a counselor?
No.
I did not.
But you knew you knew some toolsif you were able to set that
boundary.
Was there something helping youalong that way?
SPEAKER_00 (24:39):
It hit my enough, and I had started going to um
like spiritual groups andlearning how to meditate.
I started to journal.
I started to do those tools, andI did eventually go to
Codependence Anonymous, and itwas a great group.
It was all women, and we did alot of we read out of the Melody
(25:00):
Beattie books, and we wereallowed to share our emotions
and cry and and speak openly.
You didn't have to only speakabout what you were reading.
So that was that started tocatapult my healing.
And then I I started I became aShambhali Reiki master, started
doing energy healing, all thattype of thing.
So I kind of did thenon-traditional way of healing,
(25:24):
but I'm a work in progress.
I mean, I've been doing this fora lot of years, and I still
still work on the healing piecebecause something shows up.
Because guess what?
It's not about the drug or thealcohol, it's not about the
unhealthy helping and all thatstuff.
It's the why do we do what wedo?
There's something in us, we doit because it makes us feel
better.
Trying to help somebody else.
(25:45):
That's what I had to work on.
My people pleasing.
Right?
We start to throw all this thisstuff, this mess that's going
on, these emotions come up fromfrom our childhood.
And all of a sudden, when we'restarting to unload and think
we're unpacking for because ourloved one's an active addiction,
all this other stuff startscoming out, and then we the real
(26:08):
healing starts to begin.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
Yeah, I have a PhD in people pleasing.
That is something I've I'vestruggled with for a really long
time.
And I love that you brought upCodependence Anonymous and that
that was part of your journey.
It's part of my journey.
It is a fantastic group, and Ilearned so much by going through
Codependence Anonymous.
I'm happy that you brought thatup.
So thank you for sharing thatthrough all these sessions that
(26:33):
you're going through, you'restarting to reclaim your
identity.
And this is becoming part ofyour healing journey.
So, what parts of yourself didyou rediscover after stepping
out of the caregiver role?
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
That, you know, everybody has to do it their
way, not my way, which one ofthe greatest things I learned
was um, and this reallyirritated me at the same time
when I learned it, is nobody hasto live up to my expectations.
It's like, what?
Yeah.
And what I learned is when I putmy expectations on my son and
(27:10):
how he did his recovery, I setmyself up for disappointment.
I had to learn that.
I rediscovered that I wasstronger than I ever knew that I
could ever possibly imagine,that I'm resilient, and that we
teach people how to treat us.
And it's a shame we don't teachour children that at young ages.
(27:31):
Because a lot of addiction,whether it's shopping, love, you
name it, it's because it's it'sfill it fills a void, right?
It fills like a hole in oursoul.
So whatever it is, we just fillit with something that makes us
feel better.
Keep yourself busy so you don'thave to feel anything.
SPEAKER_02 (27:51):
Yeah, for sure.
So you found it sharing withoutshame.
What inspired that name?
SPEAKER_00 (27:57):
Because that's what I carried for so long, and and
that's what we need to do.
Because it I think when we sharewithout shame, whatever it is,
we we eliminate the stigmas, westart to bring awareness to it,
and when we bring awareness toit, then people are educated,
and then people hopefully thethought process is gonna be
(28:18):
different and better andhealthier.
SPEAKER_02 (28:20):
One thing I'm thinking about um that I'm
curious, so you've mentioned acouple of times that people
around you were judging you umand and would say terrible
things about your son and yourrelationship with your son, and
you kind of felt a little bitisolated from your friends and
and your support groups.
Did those people ever come back?
Did you ever did you manage toto work on that relationship
(28:43):
with them?
SPEAKER_00 (28:45):
Here's what I realized.
At one point, I remember prayingand saying, take all of the all
the negative people out of mylife.
I don't want to deal with itanymore.
I only want to be aroundpositive people.
I want to be around people wholove freely, who are kind, and
(29:05):
and just just they're just goodall around.
And what I noticed is and I wokeone day I was like, ah, like,
where is everybody?
I got what I wished for.
I got what I wished for.
They all left.
And as I moved forward bymyself, I realized it it was
(29:26):
okay.
Took me a while.
Because it's you know,loneliness the um gets loud,
right?
That silence gets loud.
But I work through it and I f umI have people in my life that
are just more authentic.
They're not takers, you know,and I don't have to pretend to
be somebody else so that theywon't abandon me or not like me
(29:52):
anymore.
What you see is what you get,and if you don't like it, that's
okay. 'Cause we're not meant tobe friends.
And that's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
So so these people that kind of weren't part of
your life anymore, would you saythat these are people who your
relationship with them justprobably wasn't healthy to begin
with?
SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
I think some of 'em were uh you know, i I I would go
along because I would keep mymouth shut so they'd be my
friend.
Even though they would hurt me.
I just I stuffed it.
And I don't have to do thatanymore.
So out of my all of this mess,uh you know, this this person
who's more honest with herselfhas come come forward.
(30:33):
Because we when we get honestwith ourselves about what's
going on, then we can start toto get better and do things
better and make better choicesand have people in our lives
that are healthy.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (30:46):
And then you find people who like you for the
person that you are, the honest,authentic person that you are.
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
Yeah.
And that's and that's good.
It's a win-win, and that's how Iwant to live my life.
I'll it needs to be wins fromnow on.
And I don't have to I don't haveto put up with someone
disrespecting me to be theirfriend.
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
What were some of the most unexpected emotions
that you had to face in yourrecovery?
Not just from your son'saddiction, but from your own
patterns of overfunctioning andbeing a caregiver.
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
Yeah, that I am enough.
So all my life I was told, oh,you're too sensitive, let it go.
So I all my life I thought I hada character defect.
And um, you know, a few yearsago I was in my late sixties,
I'm in my seventies now, but inmy late sixties, which is so sad
that I carried that around, thatI that I just I wasn't enough
(31:39):
and I let my emotions get in theway.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
And like you said, that we're all a work in
progress and we're still workingthrough through all these
things, and that's that's a lot.
You're also an energy healer.
How has energy work helped youfrom energetic imprints of
trauma, shame, or chroniccaregiving?
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
So I don't practice like I used to, but I d I
continue to have energy healingfor me.
I I work with crystals and apendulum and you know, things
like that, but I don't do thehands-on anymore.
But for me, it I just found thisnew woman in Conquer, New
Hampshire, who is fabulous, whohelps you um unblock like the
(32:21):
mother wound, right?
I had a real mother wound goingon and and we worked on a and
this was like three weeks ago,and my mom is 96 now, and there
was resentments because I wastaking care of her and and she
could be demanding, and andafter I had this healing with
her, we're laughing when I'mwith her.
(32:42):
You know, we're having funfinally.
So and it this woman just it'scalled Access Code.
She helps break um blocks thatwe have.
And I've had two sessions withher and she's been amazing.
So I I still do differentthings.
I went to a um a sound bath andyou floated in a pool with with
(33:03):
the uh this the singing bowl,the sound bowls, yeah, you know,
stuff like that.
Those are stuff I recommend.
So I try to get a find a lot ofstuff so I can when I'm working
with clients, I can makesuggestions to them because
we're uptight.
When we're dealing with allthese emotions, we're in fight
or flight mode.
Shoulders are up, right?
We're uptight, and and this justrelaxes the whole body.
(33:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:28):
Energy work isn't something I've ever tried
before, but it's it's veryinteresting, and I definitely
hear a lot of very good thingsabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:36):
Well, I'll tell you, Reiki saved my life.
And because when I was in thethroes of it all, I went to a
Reiki session and it wasamazing.
And I started to have lightnessin my heart.
I felt a little a little bouncein my step.
I smiled and laughed that day,and I hadn't done that for a
long time.
(33:56):
That's amazing.
Reiki's really good.
It's very good for cancerpatients as well.
SPEAKER_02 (34:03):
So if someone is listening right now and feeling
trapped in a cycle of enablingor emotional burnout, what's one
small step that they can taketowards change?
SPEAKER_00 (34:12):
Breathe.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
Yeah.
Something so simple, right?
We've been doing it our entirelives, but in truth, when you're
stuck in this fight, flight, orfreeze response, you're kind of
shallow breathing.
You're not taking that big deepbreath to cleanse yourself.
Calm, you can use breathing tocalm your nervous system.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
Yeah, and and I found in many of the parents I
worked with, we we we wouldcatch ourselves holding our
breath.
I literally had to rem likebreathe, stop, stop doing that.
unknown (34:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
Because that's what we do.
We're holding our breath, we'rewaiting for the next thing to
happen.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
And just learning to breathe out and exhale all of
that pent-up nervousness andanxieties, it can be really
helpful.
SPEAKER_00 (34:54):
Yeah, and you know, you mentioned the nervous
system, and when somebody forwhether you know, we're the
unhealthy helper or the personwith a substance use disorder,
it affects the nervous system.
Find something, whether it's achiropractor or energy healer
that can work on your nervoussystem, and that can make a huge
difference.
SPEAKER_02 (35:12):
Yeah, for sure.
Donna, where can people findyou?
SPEAKER_00 (35:15):
They can go to www.sharingwithout shame.com.
SPEAKER_02 (35:20):
That's amazing.
And you offer therapy sessionsnationwide?
SPEAKER_00 (35:23):
I do.
SPEAKER_02 (35:24):
Yeah.
Okay, fantastic.
I love therapy.
I've been in therapy my wholelife.
Well, not my whole life.
Adult life, I would say.
And and I I keep going becauseit's just such a great way to
keep everything aligned and andkeep your body well and your
mind well.
You also have a freebie, so youhave five boundaries and
(35:44):
breakthroughs.
Can you tell me a little bitabout that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Yeah, so you know, when especially when parents are
new to addiction and and there'sjust so much confusion going on,
this gives them a guideline.
So here's some five boundariesthat you can utilize with your
teen or adult child who's anactive addiction, and here's
some breakthroughs that you knowcan happen.
(36:08):
So it's just it's a it's a freeguide that you can get on my
website.
Perfect.
SPEAKER_02 (36:12):
And I'm gonna make sure that the links to that are
in the show notes.
So if anybody wants to havethat, they can click on the link
in the show notes and they cancontact you as well for therapy.
So I'll make sure that yourwebsite's up on the show notes
as well.
unknown (36:24):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (36:25):
Donna, thank you so much for being on the show and
for sharing your story with suchhonesty and vulnerability.
And I really appreciate yourwillingness to speak openly
about the hard parts of lifebecause it makes it easier for
others to feel seen and feelless alone.
So it's been a gift to have youon the show.
And I really appreciate yourwisdom and for being here.
Thank you.
(36:46):
Thank you for having me.
And thank you for everyone who'shanging out with us today on the
codependent doctor.
If you like the episode, I'dlove it if you would share it
with someone who needs to hearit and heck, just share it with
the whole world.
I'd love to help more people outthere.
I'd also love it if you'd be sokind as to follow and maybe
leave a comment while you're atit.
I'm most active on Facebook atthe Codependent Doctor and
(37:06):
Instagram at DRAngela Downey.
I wish you all a great week asyou learn to foster better
relationship with the mostimportant person in your life,
yourself.
I'm going to talk to you againin two weeks with Codependent
Doctor.
Take care for now.
You've got this.
Thanks for spending time with metoday.
I hope something in this episoderesonated with you.
If it did, hit follow,subscribe, or share it with
(37:28):
someone who needs to hear ittoday.
The codependent doctor is notmedical advice and doesn't
replace speaking to yourhealthcare provider.
If you're in a crisis, please goto the nearest ER or call 911 or
reach out to your local mentalhealth help line.
I'll be back here next week withmore support, stories, and
strategies because we're healingtogether.
Before we dive in today, I want you to take a deep
breath because this episode isprobably going to hit close to
home for a lot of you.
We're talking about the kind ofhelping that slowly drains you.
The kind done out of fear,guilt, and love all tangled
together.
We're going to hear about theemotional toll of loving someone
through addiction, what itreally means to set boundaries
(00:21):
without shame, and how to startreclaiming your life, even if
you've lost yourself along theway.
If you've ever felt like helpingsomeone meant abandoning
yourself, this episode is foryou.
So let's get into it.
Welcome to the CodependentDoctor, a podcast where we
unpack the messy, beautifuljourney of healing from
codependency.
If you're burned out from peoplepleasing, stuck in unhealthy
(00:43):
patterns, or just tired ofputting yourself last, you're in
the right place.
I'm Dr.
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, and I'm
here to help you reconnect toyour authentic self, one honest
conversation at a time.
Here we go.
Hello to all my wonderfulpodcast listeners, and welcome
to the 60th episode of theCodependent Doctor.
(01:03):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Downey, a family doctorand fellow codependent, here to
help us untangle our patterns,heal our hearts, and reclaim our
peace.
For today's episode, we have aguest with us.
Donna Marsden is a certifiedrecovery support worker, energy
healer, and founder of SharingWithout Shame.
Drawing from her personaljourney as a mother of a child
(01:24):
in active addiction, sheempowers families to heal, set
healthy boundaries, and reclaimtheir lives.
Donna is also the author of fourbooks and is sought-after
speaker and workshop facilitatorin the recovery and wellness
community.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
Welcome, Donna.
How are you doing today?
I'm good.
Thanks, and thank you for havingme.
SPEAKER_02 (01:42):
I'm grateful to have you on the show.
Your story is one that so manyof my listeners are going to be
able to see themselves in,especially those who've poured
everything that they have intohelping someone that they love
only to lose pieces ofthemselves along the way.
The way that you speak aboutshame and boundaries and
reclaiming identity is reallyhealing.
And I know a lot of people aregoing to resonate with that.
(02:04):
So I'm honored to have you inour space.
SPEAKER_00 (02:07):
Thank you.
I'm honored to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (02:08):
Donna, one of my traditions on the show is that
we discussed what we're gratefulfor because when we stop and
think about what we're gratefulfor, it helps our brains focus
on what's working instead ofwhat's missing or what's broken.
So I'd like to ask you, is thereanything that you're especially
grateful for today?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Well, I'm I'm grateful for the journey that I
have been on that started withmy son's addiction when he was
15 years old and who's now he'sgonna be 43.
Because there was a lot of bumpsand bruises, a lot of heartache,
tears in the fetal position.
But what it did, it showed mehow resilient I am.
(02:45):
I found I have a strength Inever knew I had.
And it brings has brought me toa place where I'm able to take
what once was my mess and makeit my message in hopes to help
other parents and family memberswho love somebody in active
addiction.
SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
That takes a lot of healing to get to where you're
at right now.
That is a long journey, and umyeah, you've definitely done a
lot of work to be able to get towhere you're at.
For myself, my my dad had aheart attack like two days ago,
and um it is just shocking to mebecause my dad, he's my
superman, and I'm just sograteful that that he's okay.
(03:24):
It's shocking how how life, it'syou know, it's not this infinite
thing, and things change so fastsometimes.
And we had a bunch of stuffplanned for the day, and you
know, we'd been stressing overgetting all these things ready.
And as soon as my my mom calledto say that my dad was in the
hospital, he'd had a heartattack, everything just went
(03:46):
away.
And that was my my mainpriority.
It's a little scary, but I'm I'mgrateful he's well, and I thank
all the staff, you know, who areable to help him.
And um yeah, I'm I'm glad thathe's still with us.
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
I was there many, many years ago with my father,
so I I know what that feelslike, and it's not a good time.
SPEAKER_02 (04:04):
But no, but I'm grateful that everything worked
out okay.
Let's start by having youintroduce yourself and tell us
about your journey.
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Well, my name's Donna Marston, and I have a son
who's a person in long-termrecovery.
And as I mentioned earlier, itbrought me to my knees when I
found out.
For the first five years, Isuspected something was wrong,
but I didn't know what it was.
So it went on for 10 years.
So 15 to 20, I suspected.
You know, mother's instinct.
(04:33):
One thing, listen to your gut,believe it, because we're
usually our gut instinct tellsus the truth.
The last five years was anabsolute nightmare.
It's when I found out um he wasan active addiction.
I thought as a mom I could savehim, I could love him into
recovery.
I found out that I couldn't.
It's a horrible, horrible thingto live with when you're
(04:56):
watching your child slowly killthemselves and there's nothing
you can do.
And so this journey, as I said,it brought me to my knees, but
it also brought me on aspiritual journey that I never
thought that I would go on,which helped me.
I didn't do the traditional AlAnon and that sort of stuff.
Well, I I didn't, I didn't.
Um, and the reason I didn't,because when I went to Al-Anon,
(05:19):
they kept telling me to comeback, and in my mind, I didn't
raise my son like this.
And so just give me the answerso I can go home and save him.
Because my kid's not like yourkid, just just so you know.
Right?
A mother's denial is a wonderfulthing.
And and so, um, and it it was avery lonely place because your
(05:40):
phone stops ringing, it's likeyou have cooties and people
don't want to be associatedbecause if they you know the
kids hang out, and so you know,you're kind of blackballed a
little bit.
So there's all these emotionsand stumbling and trying to
figure this out and in rescuemode.
Uh, you know, we're in fight orflight mode 24-7, and what
happens is we get depleted.
(06:01):
And so when that happens, wehave nothing less left to give.
And I just I made a mess becauseI didn't know better.
And and it took me years ofheartache and and and like
punches to the gut, you know,emotional punches to the gut,
for me to to get to a placewhere I hit my enough.
(06:25):
And when I hit my enough, I wasable to start working on me.
And the way I did it is I saw aum an emotional scale, and it
was number one to twenty two,and I was twenty two, I was
bottom of the list, and Ithought, how did I get here?
What what brought me to thisplace?
(06:45):
And um, and that's what made merealize how emotionally sick I
was.
SPEAKER_02 (06:50):
So, what was the moment that you realized that
helping your son was starting tocost you your own well-being?
Was there one big triggeringevent?
SPEAKER_00 (06:59):
Yes.
We had a bad day, and yeah, Iwas always very close to my son.
And he had said to me once, hegoes, Mom, as much as I love
you, when I need to get high,stay out of my way.
Because I will walk over you, Iwill step on you to get to go
get high.
And this particular day, this ishow sick I was.
(07:20):
I went out and bought a redlight, it's like therapy that
you use, using these redinfrared lights, and it's
supposed to help people withcravings to calm them down.
And so I wanted to give him asession because I knew something
was going on, and I knew heneeded to get out.
And so that so this is how itstarted to snowball.
And um the phone rang, my gutsaid this isn't good.
(07:42):
I felt like it was a drug deal,uh it was, and he he went to
leave, and it it got it justwasn't pleasant, and and um he
got a little physical with me,which is highly unusual for him.
And he left and we was missingfor about eight hours, and then
Saturday night was always datenight with my husband.
And so we were getting ready togo out for dinner, and my son
(08:05):
came in and I was so happy, Iwas like, So I told his dad he's
home, let's take him to dinner,and he said, I'm not sitting
across the table from from him.
He's high, I don't want any partof it, and figure it out because
I can't do this with youanymore.
And as I'm walking down thestairs, calling him every name
in the book in my head, by thetime I got to the bottom of the
(08:25):
stairs there was some clarity.
And I gave him a a note and Isaid, Listen, this place has a
bed.
I can't do this with youanymore.
Like I I'm empty, I'memotionally and financially
depleted, and I hope you'll getthe help that you need.
And he did.
He ended up going to treatmentthe next day, which was Mother's
Day.
(08:45):
But I also found out eight yearslater, I think it was eight
years later, that he tried tocommit suicide that night.
SPEAKER_02 (08:52):
And um after you kind of set a boundary with him.
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
When I set a boundary, he tried to take his
life by overdosing.
And when he woke up, he thought,well, maybe there's a plan and
maybe I should go to treatment.
So Mother's Day of 2008 was thegreatest gift.
Because that's when he went totreatment and he's been in
recovery ever since.
SPEAKER_02 (09:14):
So it was just that that one night everything
started happening and you setthat boundary, and that was the
only way that he made a change.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
Yeah, and and to be you know, to be perfectly honest
for for your listeners, he wentto get me off his back.
He didn't go because he wantedtreatment.
And that's how it rolled withhim.
He was in and out of treatment,and when I I was getting too
close or too heavy or too tootoo much in his face or
whatever, that's when he wouldgo that's when he would go to
treatment.
And and then he'd go totreatment, and then within, you
(09:44):
know, he'd slowly start usingagain.
One of his treatments he starteddrinking that that night.
Because drinking for my sonwould weaken his senses, so he'd
go back to out to heroin.
He was an Ivy heroin user.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
You've talked about helping and unhelp unhealthy
helping.
So can you explain thedistinction between them and how
it tends to show up in in theparent-child dynamics?
SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
Yeah.
So over the years, you know,people used to say, you're an
enabler, you're doing this, andyou're doing that, and you're
codependent, blah, blah, blah.
That is shameful language.
And people were shaming me forloving my son so much, for
trying to parent him as ateenager and a young adult.
(10:29):
I was doing my job because Itook it serious.
I don't like those words.
I don't like that we shame andblame parents for loving their
kids.
So I had taken a class throughthis craft program, and it's
about using love and beingkinder.
And and so instead of callingsaying to somebody, oh, that's
codependent behavior or that'senabling, let's talk about
(10:52):
unhealthy helping.
What does that look like?
I'll see their their theirshoulders are all relaxed,
they're not so uptight, and youknow, an unhealthy helping is
doing for your loved one whatthey can and should do for
themselves.
Period.
It's just that simple.
What worked for me may not workfor somebody else.
Everybody's unhealthy helping isdifferent.
I have parents that do drugdeals with their kids because
(11:15):
they think they're keeping themsafe.
They keep they think allowingthem to do drugs in their home
will keep them alive.
That's unhealthy helping.
Because many times they havefound their children dead in the
morning.
And and how do you live withthat?
That guilt.
And plus you're you'reparticipating in a drug deal.
They're putting yourself in areally scary situation that
(11:38):
could cause some legalramifications.
So unhealthy helping basicallyis doing for them what they
could and should do forthemselves.
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
What are some healthy helping mechanisms?
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
Setting boundaries.
So I'll give you an example.
So there was this mom that usedto come to my um, I used to run
um Family Sharing Without Shamesupport groups in New Hampshire.
I had two in different parts ofthe state that I ran.
And so her son was homeless.
He was I think I want to sayearly twenties maybe.
And she was remarried.
(12:09):
Stepdad did not want him in thehouse.
And she's beside herself.
I I want to make sure he's he'seating, blah, blah, blah.
And it was summertime.
And I said, Well, did did yourhusband say he could he couldn't
come on the property?
Or did he say he can only not bein the house?
She said, No, he n didn't eversay anything about the property.
He just said he can't be in thehouse.
(12:36):
You know, you and you make ameal and you bring it out to a
picnic table, and you can havefeed him and then send him on
his way.
You don't give him money, butyou might give him a blanket,
you know, something to keep himwarm or cool, or maybe uh uh
some ice in a bucket, a cooler.
Things like that.
That's being supportive, butyou're not giving money that
they can use some drugs.
(12:56):
You don't give them anythingthat they can sell for drugs.
My son was so creative that hewould go my husband had a
business, so he would go fill upmy husband's truck, and I could
see the the receipt and itmatched the bank account, same
thing.
In his recovery, he explained tome he was meeting his dealers at
the at the gas station.
(13:17):
He was filling up their carswith the gas in exchange for
drugs.
Okay.
They're very creative, andthey're always three or maybe
ten steps ahead of us.
That's why you don't give thembank cards or um merchandise
cards or anything like that.
Anything like that they cansell.
SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
Okay.
So what other forms of enablingare there?
So you talk about don't givethem money, things that they can
sell.
What are other ways that weenable people?
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Um with just anything or just talking with
with drugs.
SPEAKER_02 (13:47):
With any kind of addiction.
SPEAKER_00 (13:49):
Yeah.
I mean we pay their bills, wepay their mortgages, we, you
know, reel them out of jail, weum I mean, anything that you can
possibly imagine that you'resupposed to do as an adult, we
do for them, thinking that we'rehelping.
And what it what it actually isis we're prolonging their
(14:10):
addiction, we're helping prolongtheir addiction.
So I'd pay my car my son's carpayment, uh, we would pay his
rent or his bills or whatever,you know, bail him out of jail,
did it all.
I did, my husband didn't.
It was all on me.
And so and I'd walk oneggshells, you know, because I
was afraid if I said the wrongthing, I would be his excuse why
(14:33):
he needed to go get high.
So, you know, I would try to zipmy lip, not rock the boat, and
try to love him so we'd he wouldwant to be in recovery, and but
then there were times where Icouldn't keep my mouth shut and
I would say things trying toshame and blame him into
recovery.
And that doesn't work either.
(14:54):
There's this craziness, there'sthis insanity that goes on.
And it's a cat and mouse chase.
There's a thing called the cycleof addiction.
And when my son is newly in inactive addiction, my gut's
going, Mm, something's off.
And as the allergy of the bodyand the obsession of the mind
start to take over on him, mybody's ramping up, going,
(15:15):
Something's really wrong.
And then he's, you know, goesout on binges, and now I'm
getting angry because I don'tknow where he is, and
something's like really, reallywrong.
And then natural consequencesstart.
He gets arrested, right?
Or he goes to treatment.
And when he gets arrested, hehas the same name as his father.
His father was in the carbusiness, and my son got
(15:37):
arrested once for going intounlocked vehicles and you know,
getting stuff out of those.
And they have this big headline,they don't say he's 18 years
old, they don't say he's ajunior.
And you know, there's there'sthat humiliation.
So there's all this stuff thatyou that you do to protect them
and thinking it's all in thename of love, but really it's um
(16:02):
it's enabling their addiction.
And again, we walk on eggshells.
SPEAKER_02 (16:06):
Yeah.
If you have a child who's livingin your home, your son his
addiction started kind of whenhe was 15, but that it continued
after.
So once they're 18, you know,they're not contributing to the
household bills.
They're not, they don't have ajob, let's say.
All their money goes um to todrugs, they're not contributing
to bills or rent or anythinglike that.
I can't imagine what things mustbe going through your mind when
(16:29):
you're like, I my child lives inmy home, he's not paying rent.
How do you kick him out?
I can't imagine being in asituation like that.
Is that something that you'veever had to face?
SPEAKER_00 (16:40):
No.
He would he would move out onhis own and I would help him,
and I couldn't get him out quickenough.
But it's a different worry whenthey're not under your roof.
But then there is a time, andhere's my self-centeredness.
I wanted him to live under ourroof so I could keep an eye on
him.
I needed to know he was alive.
Because when he wasn't livingwith us, that wonder of where
(17:00):
the heck is he?
What's he doing tonight?
Is he safe?
It's horrible.
It's uh it just you're justnever in peace, whether they're
living with you or not livingwith you.
But an important thing to note,this is uh I can only talk for
New Hampshire, but I had parentswho would try to evict their
kids, adult children.
What we learned is that whenyour adult child lives with you,
(17:25):
that you should have anagreement.
You should have a um, theyshould pay at least like ten
dollars a week something, amonetary amount, and have an
agreement.
You can do I do a family livingagreement, and on it, they are a
tenant at will or a guest in thehome.
And that way you can eject themout of the house.
(17:46):
Right.
You can do an ejection, not aneviction.
So it's really important forpeople to know that if their
bills are coming to your houseor you know they're contributing
a little bit, you cannot justevict them.
SPEAKER_02 (18:00):
So I can only imagine having somebody who's
got an addiction, um, a drug oralcohol or whatever addiction in
your home, how disruptive thatmust be for other family members
who are living in your home.
SPEAKER_00 (18:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
Yeah, your entire family life starts revolving
around that one person.
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
Well, uh, you take on family roles.
So I was the unhealthy helper,and then I have another child,
and so he he at some times mighthave been the scapegoat with the
angry child that's in the house,or the lost child who just kind
of gets out of the way and staysquiet, and then there's the
mascot, the one that's alwaysmaking jokes about everything
(18:41):
and make make jokes about theperson who's an active
addiction, which m only enhancestheir shame or it gets messy.
So I think there's like six orseven roles that we all take on,
and what it is is we're tryingto balance the family.
And so if you can think of likea three-legged chair, my son's
sitting on that, standing onthat chair, I'm standing in
(19:04):
front of him and he has hishands on my my shoulders because
I'm the unhealthy helper, so I'mkeeping him balanced.
And then my husband, my otherchild, or depending on how many
family members, we're all likecircling around, and everybody's
trying to get my attention.
I'm the mom.
Right?
I'm the wife.
(19:25):
And and it just it the wholefamily dynamic gets out of
sorts.
And and then this the sobersiblings, they're hurt too.
And they don't often they're notold enough sometimes to have the
verbal skills to tell you whatemotions they're feeling, and
and we forget about them.
I was so hyper focused on savingmy son from his addiction that I
(19:49):
wasn't available for anybodyelse that was healthy in my
life.
And there's a lot of guilt thatI carried when I figured that
out.
Because how unfair was that.
Sure.
SPEAKER_02 (19:58):
And all these other family members who are taking on
these roles, they startdeveloping codependent patterns
themselves.
They're no longer allowed to bechildren, they're having to
parent somebody else or or besomething for somebody else.
You know, it affects theirfuture lives.
Shame is this like invisiblethread that is tying us to
codependent patterns.
(20:19):
How are some of the ways thatshame showed up in your life and
what helped you begin tountangle from that?
SPEAKER_00 (20:25):
Well, the shame is like, you know, I was like a
prisoner in my house.
I didn't want to go out, youknow, because people look at
you.
People when people find out youhave a child, an active
addiction, they say some of themeanest things to you.
It's horrible.
SPEAKER_02 (20:41):
Like other people are saying these things to you.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:45):
And the thing is, some of them I knew that their
kids were doing the same thing.
SPEAKER_02 (20:48):
Maybe they just didn't know about it.
SPEAKER_00 (20:51):
Yeah, yeah.
It's uh it's just you know, it'sjust real hard stuff.
But shame shame is like a balland chain around your ankle or
handcuffs, right?
It just keeps you just down andout and until I was able to work
past it and realize hey, I'm notthe one doing this stuff.
(21:13):
I can't make my son do drugs.
I can't I'm not that powerful.
And so it's not my thing.
It's not my problem.
It's I have nothing to beashamed of.
My son has a brain disorder, hisbrain functions differently,
it's wired differently thanmine.
Period.
And and that I think it's timethat they have a team of
(21:34):
doctors, just like anybody whohas a heart condition or has uh
diabetes or anything like that,because it's it just affects
their brain.
Like I said, their brains arewired differently than ours.
SPEAKER_02 (21:49):
One of the things that often gets overlooked is
this silent grief of lovingsomeone with an with an active
addiction.
So how did that grief show upfor you?
SPEAKER_00 (22:00):
It kept me just in a place of this perfect sadness,
you know.
Um you there's a there's therereally is broken heart syndrome,
and all of this stuff just pileson, and you just get sicker and
sicker and sicker emotionally.
We mimic each other's behaviorin a way that when my son's an
(22:24):
active addiction, I'm active inmy unhealthy helping, right?
And it's like this triangle.
It's just coming out right.
There we go.
And so at the top of thetriangle, I enter it, and I'm
gonna be his rescuer, and I'mgonna rescue him from the
dealers, from himself, from hisdrugs.
And when I work harder doingthat, and it doesn't work, and
(22:47):
then I go down to the thebottom, and now, you know, I'm
the victim.
How could this happen to me?
You know, what did I do todeserve this?
If you know, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
And when I get sick of beingemotionally sick, then I become
the the persecutor.
You SOB, how dare you do this toyour father and I.
We've given you a good life.
(23:08):
You had a you had a nicehousehold, we didn't we weren't,
you know, abusive, we didn'tswear around our children.
We're parents who showed up.
And when I couldn't bring him tohis knees and get him sober, I
would ping around in thattriangle.
Well, my son's in the sametriangle.
He's at one point of it and he'strying to detox himself.
(23:28):
I think he has the flu.
He's up in his room, and whenthat doesn't work and he has
another craving, he goes to be,you know, into victim role.
If there was a God, thiswouldn't be happening to me.
And when he gets sick of beingsick, then he becomes a
persecutor.
And who does he persecute?
The unhealthy helper.
If you bought me designerclothes in sixth grade, I
wouldn't have been bullied.
If you did this for me, Iwouldn't have had to do this.
(23:50):
If you did this, if you did, andit's all my fault.
So we mimic each other'sbehaviors.
SPEAKER_02 (23:55):
How do you get out of that pattern?
SPEAKER_00 (23:58):
It's like a hula hoop.
You gotta stop and drop.
You know, the hula hoop has allour crap hanging off of it.
Every um I have all my son'sstuff that I've added to my hula
hoop along with my own emotionalstuff.
And at one point I hit my enoughwhen I saw that emotional scale,
I dropped my hula hoop and Istepped outside.
(24:18):
I picked up one thing, and forthat day, just that day, I
started to work on me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:25):
And how did you do that?
Did you contact a counselor?
No.
I did not.
But you knew you knew some toolsif you were able to set that
boundary.
Was there something helping youalong that way?
SPEAKER_00 (24:39):
It hit my enough, and I had started going to um
like spiritual groups andlearning how to meditate.
I started to journal.
I started to do those tools, andI did eventually go to
Codependence Anonymous, and itwas a great group.
It was all women, and we did alot of we read out of the Melody
(25:00):
Beattie books, and we wereallowed to share our emotions
and cry and and speak openly.
You didn't have to only speakabout what you were reading.
So that was that started tocatapult my healing.
And then I I started I became aShambhali Reiki master, started
doing energy healing, all thattype of thing.
So I kind of did thenon-traditional way of healing,
(25:24):
but I'm a work in progress.
I mean, I've been doing this fora lot of years, and I still
still work on the healing piecebecause something shows up.
Because guess what?
It's not about the drug or thealcohol, it's not about the
unhealthy helping and all thatstuff.
It's the why do we do what wedo?
There's something in us, we doit because it makes us feel
better.
Trying to help somebody else.
(25:45):
That's what I had to work on.
My people pleasing.
Right?
We start to throw all this thisstuff, this mess that's going
on, these emotions come up fromfrom our childhood.
And all of a sudden, when we'restarting to unload and think
we're unpacking for because ourloved one's an active addiction,
all this other stuff startscoming out, and then we the real
(26:08):
healing starts to begin.
SPEAKER_02 (26:09):
Yeah, I have a PhD in people pleasing.
That is something I've I'vestruggled with for a really long
time.
And I love that you brought upCodependence Anonymous and that
that was part of your journey.
It's part of my journey.
It is a fantastic group, and Ilearned so much by going through
Codependence Anonymous.
I'm happy that you brought thatup.
So thank you for sharing thatthrough all these sessions that
(26:33):
you're going through, you'restarting to reclaim your
identity.
And this is becoming part ofyour healing journey.
So, what parts of yourself didyou rediscover after stepping
out of the caregiver role?
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
That, you know, everybody has to do it their
way, not my way, which one ofthe greatest things I learned
was um, and this reallyirritated me at the same time
when I learned it, is nobody hasto live up to my expectations.
It's like, what?
Yeah.
And what I learned is when I putmy expectations on my son and
(27:10):
how he did his recovery, I setmyself up for disappointment.
I had to learn that.
I rediscovered that I wasstronger than I ever knew that I
could ever possibly imagine,that I'm resilient, and that we
teach people how to treat us.
And it's a shame we don't teachour children that at young ages.
(27:31):
Because a lot of addiction,whether it's shopping, love, you
name it, it's because it's it'sfill it fills a void, right?
It fills like a hole in oursoul.
So whatever it is, we just fillit with something that makes us
feel better.
Keep yourself busy so you don'thave to feel anything.
SPEAKER_02 (27:51):
Yeah, for sure.
So you found it sharing withoutshame.
What inspired that name?
SPEAKER_00 (27:57):
Because that's what I carried for so long, and and
that's what we need to do.
Because it I think when we sharewithout shame, whatever it is,
we we eliminate the stigmas, westart to bring awareness to it,
and when we bring awareness toit, then people are educated,
and then people hopefully thethought process is gonna be
(28:18):
different and better andhealthier.
SPEAKER_02 (28:20):
One thing I'm thinking about um that I'm
curious, so you've mentioned acouple of times that people
around you were judging you umand and would say terrible
things about your son and yourrelationship with your son, and
you kind of felt a little bitisolated from your friends and
and your support groups.
Did those people ever come back?
Did you ever did you manage toto work on that relationship
(28:43):
with them?
SPEAKER_00 (28:45):
Here's what I realized.
At one point, I remember prayingand saying, take all of the all
the negative people out of mylife.
I don't want to deal with itanymore.
I only want to be aroundpositive people.
I want to be around people wholove freely, who are kind, and
(29:05):
and just just they're just goodall around.
And what I noticed is and I wokeone day I was like, ah, like,
where is everybody?
I got what I wished for.
I got what I wished for.
They all left.
And as I moved forward bymyself, I realized it it was
(29:26):
okay.
Took me a while.
Because it's you know,loneliness the um gets loud,
right?
That silence gets loud.
But I work through it and I f umI have people in my life that
are just more authentic.
They're not takers, you know,and I don't have to pretend to
be somebody else so that theywon't abandon me or not like me
(29:52):
anymore.
What you see is what you get,and if you don't like it, that's
okay. 'Cause we're not meant tobe friends.
And that's okay.
SPEAKER_02 (30:00):
So so these people that kind of weren't part of
your life anymore, would you saythat these are people who your
relationship with them justprobably wasn't healthy to begin
with?
SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
I think some of 'em were uh you know, i I I would go
along because I would keep mymouth shut so they'd be my
friend.
Even though they would hurt me.
I just I stuffed it.
And I don't have to do thatanymore.
So out of my all of this mess,uh you know, this this person
who's more honest with herselfhas come come forward.
(30:33):
Because we when we get honestwith ourselves about what's
going on, then we can start toto get better and do things
better and make better choicesand have people in our lives
that are healthy.
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (30:46):
And then you find people who like you for the
person that you are, the honest,authentic person that you are.
SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
Yeah.
And that's and that's good.
It's a win-win, and that's how Iwant to live my life.
I'll it needs to be wins fromnow on.
And I don't have to I don't haveto put up with someone
disrespecting me to be theirfriend.
SPEAKER_02 (31:06):
What were some of the most unexpected emotions
that you had to face in yourrecovery?
Not just from your son'saddiction, but from your own
patterns of overfunctioning andbeing a caregiver.
SPEAKER_00 (31:18):
Yeah, that I am enough.
So all my life I was told, oh,you're too sensitive, let it go.
So I all my life I thought I hada character defect.
And um, you know, a few yearsago I was in my late sixties,
I'm in my seventies now, but inmy late sixties, which is so sad
that I carried that around, thatI that I just I wasn't enough
(31:39):
and I let my emotions get in theway.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
And like you said, that we're all a work in
progress and we're still workingthrough through all these
things, and that's that's a lot.
You're also an energy healer.
How has energy work helped youfrom energetic imprints of
trauma, shame, or chroniccaregiving?
SPEAKER_00 (31:59):
So I don't practice like I used to, but I d I
continue to have energy healingfor me.
I I work with crystals and apendulum and you know, things
like that, but I don't do thehands-on anymore.
But for me, it I just found thisnew woman in Conquer, New
Hampshire, who is fabulous, whohelps you um unblock like the
(32:21):
mother wound, right?
I had a real mother wound goingon and and we worked on a and
this was like three weeks ago,and my mom is 96 now, and there
was resentments because I wastaking care of her and and she
could be demanding, and andafter I had this healing with
her, we're laughing when I'mwith her.
(32:42):
You know, we're having funfinally.
So and it this woman just it'scalled Access Code.
She helps break um blocks thatwe have.
And I've had two sessions withher and she's been amazing.
So I I still do differentthings.
I went to a um a sound bath andyou floated in a pool with with
(33:03):
the uh this the singing bowl,the sound bowls, yeah, you know,
stuff like that.
Those are stuff I recommend.
So I try to get a find a lot ofstuff so I can when I'm working
with clients, I can makesuggestions to them because
we're uptight.
When we're dealing with allthese emotions, we're in fight
or flight mode.
Shoulders are up, right?
We're uptight, and and this justrelaxes the whole body.
(33:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (33:28):
Energy work isn't something I've ever tried
before, but it's it's veryinteresting, and I definitely
hear a lot of very good thingsabout it.
SPEAKER_00 (33:36):
Well, I'll tell you, Reiki saved my life.
And because when I was in thethroes of it all, I went to a
Reiki session and it wasamazing.
And I started to have lightnessin my heart.
I felt a little a little bouncein my step.
I smiled and laughed that day,and I hadn't done that for a
long time.
(33:56):
That's amazing.
Reiki's really good.
It's very good for cancerpatients as well.
SPEAKER_02 (34:03):
So if someone is listening right now and feeling
trapped in a cycle of enablingor emotional burnout, what's one
small step that they can taketowards change?
SPEAKER_00 (34:12):
Breathe.
SPEAKER_02 (34:13):
Yeah.
Something so simple, right?
We've been doing it our entirelives, but in truth, when you're
stuck in this fight, flight, orfreeze response, you're kind of
shallow breathing.
You're not taking that big deepbreath to cleanse yourself.
Calm, you can use breathing tocalm your nervous system.
SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
Yeah, and and I found in many of the parents I
worked with, we we we wouldcatch ourselves holding our
breath.
I literally had to rem likebreathe, stop, stop doing that.
unknown (34:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
Because that's what we do.
We're holding our breath, we'rewaiting for the next thing to
happen.
SPEAKER_02 (34:47):
And just learning to breathe out and exhale all of
that pent-up nervousness andanxieties, it can be really
helpful.
SPEAKER_00 (34:54):
Yeah, and you know, you mentioned the nervous
system, and when somebody forwhether you know, we're the
unhealthy helper or the personwith a substance use disorder,
it affects the nervous system.
Find something, whether it's achiropractor or energy healer
that can work on your nervoussystem, and that can make a huge
difference.
SPEAKER_02 (35:12):
Yeah, for sure.
Donna, where can people findyou?
SPEAKER_00 (35:15):
They can go to www.sharingwithout shame.com.
SPEAKER_02 (35:20):
That's amazing.
And you offer therapy sessionsnationwide?
SPEAKER_00 (35:23):
I do.
SPEAKER_02 (35:24):
Yeah.
Okay, fantastic.
I love therapy.
I've been in therapy my wholelife.
Well, not my whole life.
Adult life, I would say.
And and I I keep going becauseit's just such a great way to
keep everything aligned and andkeep your body well and your
mind well.
You also have a freebie, so youhave five boundaries and
(35:44):
breakthroughs.
Can you tell me a little bitabout that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:47):
Yeah, so you know, when especially when parents are
new to addiction and and there'sjust so much confusion going on,
this gives them a guideline.
So here's some five boundariesthat you can utilize with your
teen or adult child who's anactive addiction, and here's
some breakthroughs that you knowcan happen.
(36:08):
So it's just it's a it's a freeguide that you can get on my
website.
Perfect.
SPEAKER_02 (36:12):
And I'm gonna make sure that the links to that are
in the show notes.
So if anybody wants to havethat, they can click on the link
in the show notes and they cancontact you as well for therapy.
So I'll make sure that yourwebsite's up on the show notes
as well.
unknown (36:24):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (36:25):
Donna, thank you so much for being on the show and
for sharing your story with suchhonesty and vulnerability.
And I really appreciate yourwillingness to speak openly
about the hard parts of lifebecause it makes it easier for
others to feel seen and feelless alone.
So it's been a gift to have youon the show.
And I really appreciate yourwisdom and for being here.
Thank you.
(36:46):
Thank you for having me.
And thank you for everyone who'shanging out with us today on the
codependent doctor.
If you like the episode, I'dlove it if you would share it
with someone who needs to hearit and heck, just share it with
the whole world.
I'd love to help more people outthere.
I'd also love it if you'd be sokind as to follow and maybe
leave a comment while you're atit.
I'm most active on Facebook atthe Codependent Doctor and
(37:06):
Instagram at DRAngela Downey.
I wish you all a great week asyou learn to foster better
relationship with the mostimportant person in your life,
yourself.
I'm going to talk to you againin two weeks with Codependent
Doctor.
Take care for now.
You've got this.
Thanks for spending time with metoday.
I hope something in this episoderesonated with you.
If it did, hit follow,subscribe, or share it with
(37:28):
someone who needs to hear ittoday.
The codependent doctor is notmedical advice and doesn't
replace speaking to yourhealthcare provider.
If you're in a crisis, please goto the nearest ER or call 911 or
reach out to your local mentalhealth help line.
I'll be back here next week withmore support, stories, and
strategies because we're healingtogether.
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