September 14, 2025 • 63 mins
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--
Scott James shares his journey from writing poems out of desperation to creating over 10,000 typewriter poems on demand, revealing how creativity became his path to healing and presence. Through his practice of instant poetry, Scott discovered how to transform resistance into flow, establish energetic boundaries, and create meaningful connections with strangers through art.
• Started writing poetry during a personal crisis after moving to Austin and settling into marriage
• Set a goal to write 1,000 poems in a year, which evolved from a task into a healing practice
• Discovered the power of co-creation by asking others for poem ideas rather than working in isolation
• Brought his 1947 Smith Corona typewriter to events and began writing poems on demand for strangers
• Developed specific creative rituals and "energetic hygiene" practices to prepare for poetry sessions
• Found that writing poems for others created a flow state that felt like connecting to something beyond himself
• Learned to "leapfrog resistance" by using his ego and pride as motivational tools
• Established the typewriter as a "creative campfire" where both poet and recipient contribute
• Witnessed profound emotional responses from people receiving personalized poems
--
Show Guest:
Scott James is an acclaimed typewriter poet and the VP of Author Strategies at Pioneering Collective, a thought leadership accelerator based in New York City. As a poet, has written over 10,000 poems on-demand, published two best selling books, and had his work featured widely by tastemakers like Magnolia and Tim Ferriss. As an author strategist, he has helped hundreds of authors publish their own books, with many of them becoming best sellers and driving millions of dollars in new business. He loves the work of helping people get their ideas onto the page and out into the world. He lives in Austin, Texas with his wife, daughter, and their goofy pug.
You can connect with Scott here:
https://www.instagram.com/scottandrewjames
https://www.pioneeringcollective.com/
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Show hosted by:
Catia Hernandez Holm, LMFT-A
Supervised by Susan Gonzales, LMFT-S, LPC-S
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Couch Time with Cat, your safe place for
real conversation and a gentlecheck-in.
Kwvh presents Couch Time withCat.
Hi, I'm Cat, trauma therapist,coach, tedx speaker,
best-selling author and yourhost here on Couch Time with Cat
.
I've spent over a decadewalking alongside people through
the real, raw and sacred workof becoming whole again.
(00:23):
Through the real, raw andsacred work of becoming whole
again.
Catch Time with Cat.
Mental Wellness with a FriendlyVoice is where we have
conversations that are equalparts science and soul.
This is where we get honestabout anxiety, grief, burnout,
relationships and the braveeveryday work of healing.
You don't have to have it allfigured out to belong here.
Whether you're tuning in rightfrom here in the Hill Country or
(00:44):
listening across the world, Iwant you to feel seen, supported
and reminded that you're notalone.
So find your cozy spot, take adeep breath and let's talk about
what it means to be humantogether.
There is something sacred aboutthe creative act, about putting
pen to paper, paint to canvasor truth into form.
(01:05):
Today, I'm joined by ScottAndrew James, poet, guide and
longtime creative partner.
You might know him as the manbehind 10,000 typewriter poems
or the author strategist who'shelped hundreds of voices make
it to the page.
Scott is someone whounderstands that creativity
isn't just output it's a form ofhealing.
(01:27):
Scott James is an acclaimedtypewriter, poet and the VP of
author strategies at PioneeringCollective, a thought leadership
accelerator based in New YorkCity.
As a poet, he has written over10,000 poems on demand and had
his work featured widely bytastemakers like Magnolia and
(01:48):
Tim Ferriss.
He has helped hundreds ofauthors publish their own books,
with many of them becomingbestsellers and driving millions
of dollars in new business.
He loves the work of helpingpeople get their ideas onto the
page and out into the world.
Get their ideas onto the pageand out into the world.
He lives in Austin, texas, withhis wife, daughter and their
goofy pug, hi.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Scott.
Hello Cat, thank you so muchfor having me.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'm honored by the introduction, oh my God, thank
you so much for being here.
I'm just so excited.
I'm like I'm kind of giddy,it's kind of.
It's kind of silly and fun.
But you and I have known eachother.
Listener Scott and I have knowneach other going on 10 years.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Gotta be 10 years.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Oh my God, that's a lot of professional growth and
personal growth for each of us.
Not that those are twodifferent things, honestly.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
A lot of growth and a lot of change.
It's very cool to be here andto see you on this.
You know everything that you'veaccomplished in the last 10
years and built.
Thank you, and to be part ofthis show.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Thank you, thank you, drew you to creating art in the
first place.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I have two answers, okay.
The first is when I was alittle kid, I made art before I
realized what it was, which Ithink is how a lot of people are
.
I was telling stories atsleepovers when I was, you know,
8, 9, 10 years old which isuncommon, especially for a
little boy and I was writingpoems for my grade school
(03:23):
girlfriends.
I was writing plays for theneighborhood kids.
So I was doing all of thatbefore I was really aware that
it wasn't common.
So that's my first answer.
And then, like many people, Istepped away from art.
I wasn't creative in the senseof making art, and you mentioned
(03:45):
the 10,000 poems in the intro.
So, around the age of 35, Istarted making art, again out of
desperation and deep despair.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
It sounds like you needed some healing and it just
kind of drew you like it calledyou.
It just kind of drew you likeit called you.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
It did.
I had just moved to Austin, Iwas married for about two or
three years and I was goingthrough a major sort of shift A
lot of who am I, what am I doing?
And we had moved from a placewhere I had lived for many years
to a place that I didn't knowat all.
Part of being here was aredefinition.
(04:27):
I was married, I was working inan office for the first time
and I was doing a lot of thingsthat prior to that hadn't been
part of my day to day.
I had been an outdoor guide andI had moved around a lot for
almost 15 years.
It was a lot of different thingsfor me and when I sat still as
you know very well I'm sure Igot married and I sat still for
(04:49):
the first time and I had a wholebunch of unresolved things that
I had to deal with.
I forget exactly what it was,but I think it was this guy
named Chris Guilbeault.
But I somehow got kind of thesmart goal formula stuck in my
head and I was like it's got tobe measurable and it's got to be
, you know, and for whateverreason that worked for me and I
(05:14):
said I am going to write andgive away 1000 poems in a year,
and that was kind of like myguideline.
And so I gave myself this goal,you know around Christmas or
January of a year, and I setabout it and I didn't intend for
it to be healing, I justintended for it to be a lifeline
.
The first thing that I tried todo was just make them up.
So there was kind of threestages to this becoming a
(05:36):
healing practice, art as healing.
The first stage was I justtried to write them like I can
do like very I would say, likerushing, like a formula line in
a football game.
What's?
that like a formula like aformula, but just aggressive.
I was like I could do.
I'm gonna write.
(05:56):
Like what?
When I tell people I wrote athousand poems in a year, the
first thing they say is the noteveryone, but most people will
do the math in their head andthey'll say, oh, that's like
three a day, which is how Ithought about it initially and I
thought, well, I got to writethree poems every day, let's go.
And then, because I'mcompetitive, so I thought, well,
(06:18):
I should write 10.
I'm going to get ahead, youknow what, if I want to go on
vacation or whatever.
That that's how I thought aboutit, like it was a task.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yes, that's a great word task.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
And so I did that.
And when I got to about thefirst like 75, 80, I ran out of
ideas and I was like I'm justwriting the same poem.
It's kind of like when youstart a new exercise routine.
I thought this sucks.
I like this thing, and so myfirst instinct was to well, I
(06:52):
asked my wife, but she didn'treally have suggestions for how
to proceed.
But what I ended up doing isasking her.
So I called people I trusted,trusted my wife, my brother, my
best friend, who is also a poet,and and what ended up happening
(07:13):
is that they would give meideas.
And so it was more like mesaying I don't know, like I was
talking about how hard it was awriter's block or I'm.
I'm unhappy with this, but Iwant to keep going.
It seems to help.
What do you think I shouldwrite about?
If you were me, what would youwrite about?
So it was really just a naturalflow of like for any project.
But what happened is then Iwould be on the phone with them
(07:36):
and I would write the poem andthen read it to them, because,
of course, it was just naturalLike oh well, I'll write it and
I'll read it to you and I foundthat that act was so easy.
Easy feels like a trivial way tosay it, but it worked, it
flowed.
There was some harmony.
(07:58):
How about the word ease, theroot word?
There was a harmony and it justgave me a sense of ease because
for me, the act of writing thepoem like opening the channel, I
would call it yes, it's veryrelaxing and very it feels like
home.
But coming up with the ideaturned out to be it's not that
(08:19):
it was a problem, because I didit 80 times in a row, but it was
past that so, coming up withmore ideas, and it blew my mind
at how much I loved it.
So that was the second stage.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Listener, as Scott is talking, my face is tingling
and I am gonna cry, and here'swhy because he is telling his
story.
I'm talking about you likeyou're not here, but okay, let
me talk about you like you'rehere Go for it.
You're telling your story and Ican hear and see a creative
(08:51):
template.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
And it's about for me at least.
Usually it's about bringingother people or ideas or energy
in, because creation isexpansive and so it sounds like
you got to the end of your ideasand something inside you knew
oh, I have to include otherpeople in this process.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yes, and it was another version of desperation,
and so this is another part ofthe story that comes in right
around here.
So I got myself invited to abackyard, and so this is another
part of the story that comes inright around here.
So I got myself invited to abackyard creative party.
It was called the Feast ofFools, based on the fool tarot
card.
(09:40):
That doesn't really come intoplay, except that in retrospect
it's a great name.
So I showed up and I decided totake my typewriter.
So I have always traveled, whenI was the outdoor guide, I
would take this old 1947 SmithCorona typewriter and it had
been given to me by mygrandmother and he was a
storyteller but he wasn't like apoet necessarily, and so it's
(10:03):
this great old, you knowmid-century typewriter that has
a case, so it's like an originallaptop, and so I would carry
that around and I would writepoems at sometimes I would.
Well, I didn't really writepoems, I wrote letters, I would
like typing them.
And also when I was this guideguide, we didn't have cell
(10:26):
phones and also I was frequentlyin places where there was
nowhere to communicate or no way, like there weren't phone lines
because I was camping just allthe time, and so this typewriter
for me was a bit of a way to Ilike, like the aesthetic, and
then I thought this is prettycool, it's fun to send people a
(10:48):
typed up letter.
So I sort of combined that oldpractice of just writing letters
, or I would make little zinesand leave them behind with
people, because that's moremeaningful.
What's a zine?
A zine is?
It's like a abbreviation ofmagazine.
Oh, a zine is like anabbreviation of magazine but
it's basically a DIY magazine.
(11:10):
So the way that I made them, theway that a lot of people made
them, they're big in high schoolor, let's say, in the circles
in art, kid poet, kid circles soyou can just type them, Xerox
them and then you fold them inhalf.
So the same way you would makelike a book or a book mock-up,
(11:33):
and then you can and they'rejust done.
You know, it's like DIYpublishing, low cost, and then
you can hand them out, you cansell them and then if you go to,
you know, to independentbookstores or college bookstores
, you can make them veryartfully handcrafted and just
like anything else.
They can be extremely exquisiteand one of a kind.
(11:54):
But that's what I would do isI'd make these little zines and
I would pass them out to thepeople, either the people I took
on trips or the people I workedwith, and so that was a
practice I had in the past, butI never did it, it was always
just from me.
It's basically self-publishing,but I would only write, you
know, 10 or 20 poems at a time.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
You say 10 or 20, like it's.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, well, that was the part.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, I, it was just the average Joe doesn't write
one, so 10 or 20 feels Whoa.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, that's a good, that's a good reminder.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
As you were going through this process, maybe did
you start understanding what youwere really feeling.
As you said, like you startedbeing creative, your wife said
hey, why don't you go back topoetry?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
It gave me.
Purpose is what it did, and itreminded me what it's like to
have purpose.
And so what happened?
The way that I, after I did allof those poems I was in I was
still had only done like 120,150, something like that.
And so I did.
The backyard party took mytypewriter and I wrote poems on
(13:10):
demand for people at the partywhich they loved, and I thought
this is great, I could just doit in the moment.
And for me it also matched mygoal because I was like I banged
out like 20 poems.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
You're still on the way to 1,000.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
That's right At that point, and so the next day I
walked down to like the foodtruck near my house and I just
sat there, and then, whilepeople were waiting for their
food, I would write them a poem.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
That takes a lot of guts.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, I mean, and so on and so forth.
So I did that for a couplemonths, just all spring.
So I did that for a couplemonths, just all spring, you
know, I'd South by, I did someparties at South by, and then I
started getting people asking,inviting me to do their wedding,
and I would do, you know, 30,40 at a time, and so what ended
up happening is that I didn'thave to write a poem every day
(14:00):
and I would almost go into theselike fugue states where you're,
you know, major flow state, andI would write poems for just
hours, almost nonstop.
People wouldn't line up, so I'dhave a line of people.
That gave me, you know, itreminded me or maybe it
(14:24):
introduced me to the idea thatyou know, that this was a skill
that I had, or a talent, or justa gift, and so it gave me a
sense of like self-worth thatwas outside of work, it was
creative, and then also it gaveme a sense of purpose, because I
(14:46):
made it over the hump, you know.
So I was 300, 400 pounds and Iwas like, all right, I can do
this, and then things formedaround it and the healing part,
the stillness that you'retalking about, is.
I would very much lose myselfin it.
Every time it happened, theease in my shoulders.
I would always just relax intowhat felt like, and still feels
(15:10):
like a connection with just theuniverse, with divine energy,
with God just outside of myself,and I became the channel or the
vessel for things to be created.
And I think the most healingpart of it it's not so much what
(15:32):
it made me realize about myself, as much as it just got me out
of my head, yes, and connected.
So I wasn't really thinking,yeah, I was connected and I was
in my heart space and I was in.
It's similar to now I have adaughter and it's like when I'm
with my family, you know, I'mnot like worried about like how
does my hair look or somethingI'm just like with my family.
(15:54):
And so I had that sense of itwas me, it was the energy, it
was.
My typewriter became thiscrucible of like me and this
person are going to createsomething new that isn't really.
It's not by me, I'm not theauthor and it's also not like
neither one of us could havewritten this poem on our own.
(16:15):
I need their idea and they needme to type.
And so the typewriter becamethis like campfire, it became
this thing.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yes, yes, you throw a log.
I throw a log on the fire.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Like let's see what we can generate together.
Exactly so.
For me that was very healingbecause my problem, my challenge
, the thing that I get, the waythat I get in my own way, is I
isolate, I ruminate, those aremy things.
(16:52):
So this allowed me to be in acreative space and kind of
leapfrog resistance or leapfrogmy normal anxiety.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Let's talk about resistance.
Yeah.
So all that, that's the healingpart.
There were a lot ofrealizations and epiphanies, but
actually just that act andrealizing like, oh okay, so yeah
.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Can we talk about resistance for a moment?
Yeah, you introduced me to, ohmy God, one of my favorite books
.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
The War of Art?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yes, Not the Art of War.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Not the Art of War, the War of Art.
And the premise of this book isthat we all have well, I don't
know about we all, but for sureI have a creative need.
I need to fulfill this, or elseit metastasizes inside of me.
(17:52):
Before you, I did not considermyself an artist.
I literally would say I'm notan artist.
And one time you and I sat atmy dining room table I probably
had a one-year-old at the time.
Every time I go to you, I amjust outside of my.
(18:17):
I am unreasonable.
I'm an unreasonablygoal-oriented person when I call
you and so, listener, we'lltell you a little bit more about
that, but in a moment.
But I told Scott I'm not anartist and he was like what are
you talking about?
Like you wrote a book.
That's not numbers, you know.
(18:37):
And that was the very firsttime I gave myself even the
permission.
I thought it was kind ofaudacious to think of myself as
an artist, because I thought ofartists as paint and paint
brushes or sketches and Ithought that's where artistry
lives.
The rest is, I don't know.
I hadn't given it a name.
(18:59):
If my creativity doesn't havesomewhere to go, it starts to,
like I said earlier, metastasizeand all that energy goes to my
head and my head startsruminating and it really it
starts kind of like wheelsspitting in mud.
(19:20):
I'm creating problems formyself where there were no
problems, and so this is a verycommon experience for a lot of
artists.
Will you talk about theresistance, or did you face any
resistance within yourself asyou were on this journey to
write a thousand poems in a year?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I did at the beginning, like I'm talking
about here.
I think the resistance was whenI ran out of ideas.
I was terrified of going tothat food truck or sitting down
with a typewriter in a room fullof tech people who are drinking
.
All of my demons, you know allof my like self-judgment of you
(20:06):
know they're going to laugh atyou or this is stupid, it's not
going to work.
So all of that came up and thereason I say I leapfrogged it.
So the resistance did happen,but it's almost like I laid a
series of traps for myself.
(20:27):
That's not quite the right word, but Obstacles, yeah.
What's the opposite?
It's bait, it's like I baited.
Oh, bait Nice, Because it'salmost like I took some of my
insecurities and played themagainst each other, because I
was very anxious and it's veryhard to start up a first
(20:51):
conversation, but at the sametime I have just an ironclad
sense of integrity and loyalty.
So if I say to you I'm going todo something, I'll definitely
follow through, unless, you know, like anyone, occasionally
there's, you know, a healthcrisis or something.
But I'm going to do it, and itwould be deeply embarrassing to
(21:12):
not follow through.
And then, at the same time, Ihave pride, I have an ego, and
so when people would come to me,when people would say, hey, can
you come write poems here?
This is really cool what you'redoing, can you come write poems
over here?
I would say, of course, youknow.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, say yes and figure it out later.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
That's right.
And so often what would happenis then later I would be like,
oh God, I wish I didn't say yeah, and but then so I would have
that debate in my head.
So that was the version ofresistance that I learned.
The muscle that I learnedthroughout that year was like I
would always commit to doing it,partly out of pride and partly
(21:52):
after I did it a few times thenI realized, oh no, this is good
for me, like I feel it's.
It's like medicine.
I got the serotonin or whateveryou know, like my.
I felt so much better and mywife started to say I felt so
much better.
And my wife started to sayyou're so much better I don't
know if she said that exact word, but you're so much happier,
you're so much more yourself.
(22:12):
For like three days after youcome home from an event, and it
was essentially like taking mymedicine.
And so I started to realizelike, oh, that's the leapfrog, I
just say yes, if I can jumpover that.
And what happened is it becamelike a flywheel.
So I would be at an event and Iwould get invited to one or two
or five more at the event.
(22:34):
So once I got past the firstmonth or so.
Then I just, and it's continued, I still have people calling me
and so I don't actually have toput myself out there anymore,
in the same way Like I don'thave to leapfrog it.
It's like that first six weeks.
So the resistance that I feltwas I overcame it by almost like
(22:58):
using my ego or pride.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, yeah, I think ego and pride has to do with it.
I've always loved movements indifferent forms and I really
like to show off in a lot ofways, and so I don't just want a
Monday Wednesday yoga class, Ineed to do the hardest.
Monday Wednesday yoga classthat ever was Nice.
(23:21):
And so a few months ago Idiscovered um, discovered
endurance running, so ultrarunning, and I had already ran a
marathon so I couldn't sign upfor a marathon.
My ego said you need to dolonger.
So I signed up for an ultra.
A trail ultra was humbledbeyond, took three weeks to lick
(23:42):
my wounds and signed up foranother one.
And also my ego in play saidyou've already done 50K, needs
to be longer.
So now it's 52K, nice, and theact of running is my medicine
(24:07):
Any movement.
But I really enjoy vigorous,challenging movement.
It's like I'm a labrador and Ineed to take myself for a run
and after all that energy hasexpended, I'm able to be really
present with the people that Ilove.
If I have extra energy at 9 pmnight, it's not good for me and
I've just really leaned intothat truth and accepted that.
(24:27):
So I know that signing up forraces every six months, that is
my ego and I'm just okay with it.
I'm like that's fine.
That's just that's fine.
My ego is in charge when I signup for the race, but you know
who's in charge when I'm runningon a Monday, wednesday, friday
in my garage by myself.
That's my higher self, becauseI'm doing it with the intention
(24:52):
of being present with the peoplethat I love.
So I just kind of I take mymedicine and I just enjoy the
good that it brings me and I'vejust kind of leaned into that
truth about myself and acceptedit.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And I have no problem saying I really enjoy being
special, I really enjoy showingoff, I really like just part of
me needs that.
But you know what, if I feedthat part of me, I get to then
be really present with myclients, present with you right
now, present with my kids and myhusband.
(25:30):
And so I think just the older Iget, the more I'm okay with
holding those tensions.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I love that.
You know, I just had anepiphany while you were talking
oh, tell, tell, yeah.
Well, I think one.
I guess it's a two-part.
So there's this artist namedmusical artist, named East
Forest, and he makes ambientmusic and he has this one song
(26:04):
that I believe is called it'seither the grandmother's sphere,
like the atmosphere, butgrandmother, grandmother's
sphere but grandfather's sphere,and it's just about being in
that energy.
I think it's grandmother'ssphere and in the song.
Now I'm not positive if it'sthat song, but there's a
(26:25):
voiceover that he does where hetalks about I didn't transcend
my ego.
We became partners, yes, andthat line has always bothered me
.
Oh, really, it always made meangry, like I liked him as an
artist, but anytime I heard thatI was like that's ridiculous,
(26:51):
which is funny now to say it'sjust something I thought.
But as you were talking and aswe're talking about this, I
realized because, like beforeyou started talking about that,
I said I don't really understandit.
But that is now I get itbecause you're right, it is
everything you said is such a.
It just resonates so much astrue and that, so yeah.
(27:17):
I feel like it's not aboutdissolving or removing the ego
completely, but now I see okay,yeah, so I suppose I dealt with
my resistance by becoming apartner with my ego, rather than
doing.
Hello, ego Hi Hello.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You've served us well .
Sometimes a little too much,yeah, but in dose of.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
That's very uncomfortable to talk about ego.
This is uncomfortable right now.
I like it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Thanks for jumping into it.
So, the artist, I'm witnessingyou currently and you're
witnessing me, and this is adeep moment.
This isn't just, you know,coffee chat.
We're not talking about RealHousewives here of Beverly Hills
or anything.
You know, we're really into it.
(28:13):
Yeah, have you ever?
Well, I'm sure, but can youtell me about writing poems for
somebody on demand?
Yeah, you give it to them.
You have opened your creativityup.
Your heart opens to them.
You hand them this poem.
(28:34):
I know because I have been onthe side of.
One time I showed up at a partylistener and Scott was there
and I was like Scott, hello, hi,how do you what?
I was so confused, I was soconfused and he wrote me a poem
(28:54):
and I still have it and I thinkit's beautiful.
I have many of Scott's art inmy home, but that's one and I
remember thinking oh, how did hesee that?
so what's it like to hold spacefor somebody else's emotion, who
often you don't know them, butyou give them this gift and then
(29:17):
they, it brings up something inthem.
What's it like to see that?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
it's very humbling, I when I so I one another thing
that happened that is healing.
It touches on healing but it'sreally sort of I think of
healing as getting back tobaseline.
But that might not be true with.
(29:49):
Oh, I wrote these poems to sortof get out of depression, and I
did, and then I started to pushmyself and go, you know, new
things, growth, like we'retalking about signing up the
poetic version.
You know, after I did the firstthousand poems or the first
couple hundred, then I wasgrowing because it was real and
it was the ultra marathon, youknow, and I had to lick my
wounds for three weeks, a coupleof times too, or I hurt myself
(30:12):
and hurt my brain Overextended,overextended, yeah or it
impacted other parts of my life,but the thing that was so it
taught me about boundaries andit taught me about energetic
boundaries and containers andhow to live in that moment that
(30:35):
you're talking about, when Ishow up and I sit across from
someone.
Now, I'm not trained or anything.
I was an English major incollege and I work in books and
I work in art, but I don't haveany sort of formal training
interacting with people.
I've been a facilitator,outdoor guide, things like that.
So I've picked up things alongthe way, but it's not a formal
(30:58):
education, it's what I've puttogether.
That I realized very, veryearly on is that some people are
just going to vomit on likethey're going.
You know they're going likethey need it so much.
They're never listened to.
(31:19):
Oh yeah.
They don't listen to themselves,and so they're just going to
dump on me and then other peopleyou know, and so on and so
forth, on me, and then otherpeople you know, and it's so on
and so forth, and there's adifferent, almost archetypes of
how people will unload.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
There's like poor energy etiquette out there poor,
yeah, very much so.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
And poor, the other version of poor oh, yes, yes, I
didn not hearing them Like what?
Very frequently.
What do you mean?
Like they would give me a poem.
(32:16):
They would talk.
Like they would just, let's say, two people sit down, husband
and wife or two girlfriends, andone of them's getting a poem
and as they talk about it, Istart typing and then they would
just start talking about thisexperience.
Oh, he's doing this and Ithought he would be like this,
or I thought it would you know.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Wow, is that bizarre.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, so that was bizarre.
And when you bring up theenergetic part, like that's, I
don't know if it's the shadowside, but it's kind of the
darker version of the awefeeling, because I had to get
used to that and just fill inthe blank of every possible
conversation.
I also had people very, veryfrequently, you know, like if I
(33:00):
wrote 50 poems in a night, thiswould happen 10 times.
They would tell me a word andthen I would start typing the
poem and they would justcontinue talking to me like
we're talking now.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
As if you could do both at the same time.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, but I think that it just didn't register for
them what was going on, whichis fine, and I'm not going to
correct them, or I chose not tocorrect them.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Like they're getting a manicure.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
That's how it was, like that, like it's just
happening.
So I learned a lot of thosetools and so I would show up and
be very I think now I'velearned that this is very common
for, like a musician or youknow anyone, I'd be interested
to hear if you have practicesyourself.
But I had.
So I developed and then I woulddevelop it for the couple hours
(33:51):
leading up to it and theneventually it rippled out into
my life to almost a 24 to 48hour routine where, if I knew I
was going, I would eat a certainway Hygiene is the word I would
practice different sleephygiene leading into it.
And then I would practice likethere's certain music I wouldn't
(34:11):
listen to on the way to apoetry event.
There's certain shows Iwouldn't watch because I knew I
was going to open my mind, mypsyche, and I was going to allow
other people to come in to mixand I had to walk the line of
like you know, there's like minein the middle, middle.
And then there's the part thatI'm sharing, that is the
(34:33):
pass-through part, and thenthere's the part where that's
not mine at all.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
There's so much discernment in your routine.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
And that was the most healing thing, because what
happened is, once I starteddoing this a lot, and now it's
been 12 years that became justhow I was, and so eventually I
quit drinking.
I changed all my relationships,and so that was the most
healing part was realizing like,oh, and at this point I don't
even need to do the poetry, Atthis point I just arrive.
(35:03):
The practices and the hygieneand the discernment have become
just how I.
It's who the aspects of myselfthat needed to come out and play
.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
It sounds like.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
They needed the poetry to get there.
Yes, yes yes, but I don't needit anymore.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
I have similar practices.
I do many different things,including get off social media.
No wine, better sleep.
So there are just, yes, thoseallow me.
(35:38):
I know that those allow me topull from places inside myself
that I do not have access to ifI'm cloudy for any reason and
actually yesterday I had areally cloudy day and I told
Anthony, my husband don't let mecut my bangs, don't let me.
Yes, right, yes, don't let memake any decisions.
(36:03):
And not that it's hisresponsibility, it's.
It was more just like a mesharing out loud.
I know I'm kind of on thin iceenergetically right now, so I
need to drive more slowly, Ineed to eat more vegetables.
I hadn't been sleeping well.
We got a puppy, so I've had I'mjust like on week three of oh,
(36:27):
six hours sleep, waking up atthree in the morning and I
thought, no, no, no, no, no.
I cannot be going out on limbsright now.
I need to kind of secure my ownenergy before I go out on the
limb.
So last night I got seven hourssleep and I feel like an
amazing person today.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
But yes, you're a superwoman.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, I'm like, let's do it.
So, yes, energetic hygienesomething.
Yeah, I'm like, let's do it.
So, yes, energetic hygiene.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Don't let me cut my bangs.
That would be a good name for apoem, that would be a good name
for anything like that.
But that part is that's areally good example of that.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
And then the flip side of that like like okay, now
I'm ready to cut my bangs yes,now I know that I want to and
it's coming from a differentplace inside of me.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yes, instead of exasperated discernment yes,
that's the right word discern,but that that was the healing.
I think of all of this, but Ilove that, and and being able to
understand that about myselfwas the gift of the practice,
the art.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
When you take, when we take really good care of
ourselves, we're moretrustworthy for the people
around us Big time people aroundus.
And listener Scott hasexcellent boundaries.
I complimented him.
I'm not even sure if heremembers, but I said I just
(37:57):
really appreciate that you haveexcellent boundaries, Like it
makes me feel really safe andreally good, because when
somebody takes care ofthemselves, I don't have to do
mental gymnastics for that andin my mind you're a man who
takes good care of himself.
So I can just assume Scott'sgot that covered.
(38:19):
I don't have to do any extrawork.
He's going to take good care ofhimself, he's going to let me
know what he needs and I don'thave to second guess anything.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Just to go back to your original question as long
as I do that, I learned that ifI do that, I'm able to be there
and no matter literally nomatter what happens.
And I've seen everything.
I've seen violence, I've seenpeople get in fights, people
break down At a poem, at a poem,fall in love with me.
Oh yeah, at the table Really.
Oh yeah, wow.
(38:50):
And it's wild because it that'swhat I mean is people come up
to the table and they you know,I invite them, like you, give me
a word, and then I might saywhy do you pick that word?
And for some people it reallyjust opens them.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Wow, you know it elicits that much.
They're at a wedding.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Oh my opens them.
Wow, it elicits that much, ohmy God, that much emotion.
Yeah, husband and wife, theysit down.
It's amazing what kind ofconversations happen between a
husband and wife or a boyfriendand girlfriend, or any partners
or parents and their children,if they are trying to pick a
word together.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Oh no, that sounds like therapy.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I'm going to put my cards on your poem table, you
should.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
So you're going to get whatever is, you know, just
under the surface.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yes, yes, yes, whatever is going to boil over.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
At that tape as this poem is being created, and so,
yeah, I mean I don't want toexaggerate, it's not violence
like people are getting in paintthe poem and I still do it
(40:08):
sometimes and you know it'sapproaching, it's tangential to
art therapy, in the sense thatpeople might have not used
watercolor, let's say, for 20years, and now they're a drink
and a half in at their friend'swedding and however they feel
(40:31):
about themselves is that's whatwe're talking about.
Wow, and that's common.
That is the practice, that isinstant poetry.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Wow, that must be so powerful to witness.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, and so I would watch in.
So I have my hygiene in place,I have my container and I know
how much I'm going to engagewith that person, and I'm going
to do it freely and withouthesitation, because I know the
edges.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Right, you're giving of yourself as much as you want
to give, but not more.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, we're both.
That's the campfire.
Both put our log.
I know what my log is.
I brought my log.
Then when it's done, you knowI'm going to continue with the
campfire thing.
So the campfire and then youcan't control what the fire
looks like, and sometimes it'sjust really magical, and
sometimes the Milky Way is out,and sometimes you know like
(41:28):
Jupiter and Venus are in thepredawn sky, like right now.
And so when you sit down, likethat's what's happening.
And so I got to engage withjust the world reality on this
whole level, where for severalhours I was just in awe, like
(41:49):
I'm almost going to cry thinkingabout it, because when I sit
down to do it, that's what'shappening for me.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Wow, you create your own little micro world.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Oh yeah, and it's just creative.
And the poems are coming up andI don't own them, I don't plan
them.
You know, some people think Imemorize.
I have like 10 templates in myhead.
Or you know, some people areshocked that I invent them on
the spot and they think I'm liketyping up a poem.
Some people bring me a poem andthey say I want TS Eliot or I
(42:22):
want Mary Oliver, and they wantme to just copy it off their
iPhone or something.
Oh wow, but that's not what'shappening.
It's all in the ether.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, but it is A creative act is the unknown.
So maybe one day the campfireis beautiful and maybe one day
it burns everything down Likeit's not.
That's right, like it's not.
And it's part of creativity.
And being creative together iswatching the unfolding.
I mean, you can, you can try tomold it, but ultimately it's
(43:07):
going to unfold in a way thatyou may not, which brings me to
my next part.
So, listener, I want to tellyou a little bit about what it's
like to work with Scott.
I met Scott in I really don'tknow, I'm going to guess in 2017
, but I'm not really sure, maybe2016, but I published my first
book in 2017.
And God sent me Scott through amom blogger, alisa Hi, alisa,
(43:31):
thank you so much.
And I was having troublepublishing and she said why
don't you call my colleagueScott James?
And so I called Scott and hestarted helping me and he helped
me.
I had already written the bookand it was in some legal holdup,
(43:53):
and so Scott helped me throughthe time when I was getting my
book back and he helped mepublish the first.
He helped me title it also.
It was so fun to do the titleexercise.
I love that title, so that wasa really interesting experience
(44:28):
because I had already written it, it had already been edited,
but it was on pause because ofsome legal things with the
publisher, and so he helped mebring it to life in a way that I
was really proud of, because ithad been held up and the juju
around it sucked because I wasangry because somebody had taken
(44:50):
my work, and Scott helped mebring it into the world in a way
that I was, that I'm still soproud of, and we did it at my
dining room table, and everytime I told him I'm going to do
this, he was like okay, like notsure, cause he had just met me
and he was.
He didn't know that I wasaggressively setting goals, but
(45:12):
that was my MO back then.
Right, yeah, or still, oralways.
It was so fun, it was so, sofun.
And then, a few years later, hehelped me create a TEDx talk
called Choose Joy or Die.
And so what happens is I cometo Scott with this really raw
idea and with this energy thatis just like pokey I'm thinking
(45:38):
of, like a geode, like my energy.
When I get to Scott, I'm likehere, here's what I've got and I
have something to share, but Idon't exactly know how to share
it or how to refine it.
And so Scott helped me create aTEDx talk, a beautiful TEDx
(46:00):
talk.
It was awesome.
And then, a few years later, Isaid I've got a book and I don't
know what to do with it.
And it was just a gentle return, was halfway, I had written a
lot, but it didn't have any form, and I was just desperate to
(46:20):
give it form.
And so what Scott did was heasked me thousands of questions
like just, like whittling, likea blog, just, or let's go back
to the geode, like chiseling thegeode.
And so what working with Scottlooks like is weekly meetings,
(46:43):
lots of homework, lots ofexploration in between, like
read this book, figure this out,read this, figure this out.
How do you feel about this?
It looks like lots of what isit killing your babies?
What is that term?
Killing your babies?
Oh, yeah, I've killed lots ofbabies.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Lots of.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
The second book, a Gentle Return, is a book of
essays, and there were manyessays in there that were going
to be in there but that wereslaughtered because they just
didn't fit the end product,which I completely appreciate.
So when I go to Scott, when Iwrite a book, I write it for
myself.
(47:25):
First, the actual writing.
I take pen to paper and I writeit for my own heart, and by the
time I call Scott, that's likeokay, now this is going to be
for public consumption.
So then it's art for the public.
That's how I see it anyway, andso you can thank Scott for
(47:48):
making me, helping me makebeautiful art.
That's what lands on yourcoffee tables or in your
bookshelves or in your ears ifyou're listening to the
audiobook.
Scott's the, not the chiseler,that can't be right.
You're Michelangelo with theDavid.
I don't know I'm not the David,but let's have a metaphor that
(48:10):
works.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
I'm going to try to extend the campfire.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Please, because those metaphors were just not working
.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
I called myself a publishing guide for many years,
intentionally guide rather thancoach, Because I, you know,
actually similar to your pinflag concept, with courage to
become.
I often think you know, we allknow what we're trying to do
(48:43):
here.
We're trying to write a book,but we don't Like that's very
tangible.
We're trying to write a book,but we don't.
That's very tangible.
But what is it about?
What's important?
What stays inside of it?
What are you trying to say?
Who are you trying to say it to?
(49:04):
I think that's where the guidepart comes in.
So that's how I think of myself.
The chiseler, yes, but to meit's more like you know, like
hurting the cats of our brainsand saying like this is you know
?
Is that, do you want to go that?
Like you said, how does it feel?
(49:24):
And I ask those questions a lot,Like how do you feel about
cutting this essay?
Or how do you feel about usingthe word gentle, how do you feel
about the heroine's journey?
And those kinds of questionsare very it's not common for an
(49:47):
editor.
So I'm specifically not aneditor when I think about books,
because I think an editor ismore like a chiseler in the
sense of okay, you gave me thisform and I'm going to shape it
based on some objective criteria, not to insult any editors.
Every editor has their processand a lot of it is is deep, but
(50:09):
any editors.
Every editor has their processand a lot of it is is deep, but
I I love the journey metaphor,you know, and I was an outdoor
guide yes, I think it's just howI interact with the world.
And, uh, and, before that I wasa teacher.
I was an english teacher and soyou know, like inherent, like
(50:31):
what do teachers do?
You know?
It's not a tabula rasa processwhere I'm just beaming knowledge
in your head.
I was the kind of teacher and Ithink good teachers are where
they're trying to get you tosort of figure out what you
think.
And so I have that, plus theguiding, which is literally like
I would always let people gothe wrong way, not forever, but
(50:57):
we could try that, and maybewrong way is the wrong way to
say it.
I'd let them go.
You know, road less traveled IfI knew like, well, we're trying
to get across this lake andmost people land over here, but
you want to try to land overthere?
Let's see what happens.
Let's see what happens Sometimesthey'll be like, no, let's try
the other way again, and soright, and sometimes you go back
(51:18):
, but then you know, and it'sdifferent to take the original
road, when you just had atwo-hour excursion over here and
you had a snack and you maybefound a snake or something, and
then you come back and you havethat story, and so that story
comes with you and you walk downthe path differently than if
(51:39):
someone just tells you you haveto go on this path, because then
the story you're taking withyou down that path is like I'm
not allowed over there, it'sprescribed and it's not your
book.
That's right, that's right, andyou didn't figure it out.
And so I try to walk thatbalance.
So I like that's what I wouldsay guide, and that's what
(51:59):
guides do.
So here we go.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Well, you're very good at it.
You do the campfire every night, so Well, you're good at it and
I I'm just you're great at itand I'm just so grateful to have
met you almost 10 years ago andgrateful to be a creative
partner with you from time totime yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Uh, it's been incredibly rewarding to work
with you and to see your booksand your TED Talk come to life
and yeah, it's helping.
And I guess the other piece isthat there's a million little
details that are very archaicand about the physical act of
(52:47):
making a book or a you know50,000 word document, which are
very cumbersome and if they getin your way, if you haven't done
them before.
That's true, those things Iknow, so you can remove the
friction that doesn't helppeople and just Keep the
friction that does.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
That's right, exactly .
And just keep the friction thatdoes that's right, exactly,
scott.
Are there any creative ritualsthat support your well-being?
So let's say you go out andyou're about to do Poetry on
Demand for 40 people.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
I'm going to be doing that tomorrow morning.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
Oh, excellent.
Is there something you're doingtoday or that you've done in
the last few days?
Oh, excellent, is theresomething you're doing today or
that you've done in the last fewdays?
We know you keep your containerof energy clean and you're
discerning in that way.
Is there something?
Speaker 2 (53:40):
else that kind of keeps those juices flowing.
For you, the two big ones, Imean, I really have found that
just my whatever workout routineor meditation routine that I
have, you know everybody ebbsand flows.
So I just make sure thatwhatever I'm doing presently, I,
if I'm gonna go do a creativesession, I make sure that I'm,
(54:02):
I'm on it, you know, for thecouple days leading up to it,
because if and I and I drinkenough water and I eat regularly
and I get good sleep.
So those things are tablestakes at this point.
But one thing I do is about 48,72 hours before an event.
(54:23):
I always take a moment and it'sa prayer, it's a type of prayer
, but I will just pause and Ialmost never plan it and it's
not, there's no words.
I just pause and I sort of Ienvision a space deep inside of
(54:44):
me opening up for the peoplethat are going to come to my
table.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
That's so generous.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Yeah, and I because it's a nod to my original
resistance, which is, I know,like I can say for sure, tonight
I'm going to think I don't wantto get up and go do this
tomorrow, and then I'll go.
I'll probably think thattomorrow morning, until I get
(55:16):
there, like I'll be angry at theyou know, irrationally angry at
the people who invited me there, like why are you in my way?
Or like if you know, if there'sany kind of You're like, I just
want a taco.
That's right.
Why can't I go get a taco rightnow?
It's your fault, I'll have allthose thoughts and that's fine.
(55:40):
I don't, you know, they're justin the wind going through my
psyche, but I, so that's a bigone for me is to open up that
space deep inside.
And what I always think thesame thing, which is I envision
myself, I imagine myself thereand I say I'm going to have fun,
(56:01):
and I smile, and so, like Ijust remind myself 48 hours out
that I am going to love it.
So it becomes a reminder andpredictive.
You know, it's just keep thechain going.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
That's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
Like.
This is how I'm going to feelan hour in.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yes, I heard a surfer on the Rich Roll podcast.
His name is John John Florence.
I feel weird calling him JohnJohn.
I don't know if that's anickname or his real name.
Yeah right, sounds casual.
John John Florence.
I feel weird calling him JohnJohn.
I don't know if that's anickname or his real name.
(56:42):
But he said, before he does abig event, he meditates and he
asks himself how he wants tofeel during the event.
He doesn't focus on winning orwhat skills he wants to show,
rather, he wants to show Rather.
The meditation is on how hewants to feel, and that is what
shows up for him then in theevent, and then the result is a
byproduct of that.
But he's not chasing thefeeling, but he's calling in the
(57:03):
feeling.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Yep, that sounds very familiar, thanks.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
Jon Jon.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Yeah.
And then the other ritual Ireally like and this one's very
short is anytime I encounterresistance, I like to say let's
see what happens, let's see whathappens if, and then I can.
Then I that's like my verbalway of saying I can do whatever
(57:30):
I want now.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
Then your back is not in a corner.
Yeah, you've still got a littleout, yeah, and you're like this
is my choice.
Thank you very much.
And so it gives you a littlespace not to feel so bossed
around.
That's right.
That's right.
What role do you think artistsplay in collective healing?
Speaker 2 (57:54):
I think that art, I do very much think of art as
healing, art as a healingpractice.
So I guess I, what role does itplay?
I view it as almost theresponsibility, at least the
opportunity for each individualto make something.
So I discovered this word.
(58:15):
So I don't think of it as like,oh, someone's going to make art
, like protest art or not tosingle out protests, but uh, and
I'm not against it, but it just, it seems to me performative,
or it it becomes something else.
(58:36):
Like I personally, I'm not veryconnected to the idea of art as
like everybody goes to look atthe Mona Lisa or everybody goes,
you know, there's like a bigiconic thing, a picture of
someone that doesn't work, thatdoesn't do it for me.
That's not my interaction withart.
(58:57):
For me, the interaction withart is the creative part.
That is how I feel about mypoems.
So the collective healing, Ithink, is the stillness that
comes from the act of creating.
In Greek there's this word,poiesis, and you know
translations are tough, but myfavorite translation that I've
found I don't know Greek is tocreate something where there was
(59:18):
nothing before.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
I came home and my daughter had been at the house
for a while but she said look,mom, I made this and she had lit
a candle and made art with thewax from the candle and I
thought, okay, that's good.
Yeah, she was still enough,creative enough.
(59:45):
She looked around, said let medo something.
And the dishes weren't done,which, you know, made me like
tense up my shoulders.
But the real beauty in that isthat she was still enough
(01:00:10):
observant enough, open enough tolook at a candle and make some
art out of it and I thoughtthat's good, that's a win.
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
It's a huge win and she felt safe enough and had the
autonomy within your house todo that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Yes, pat on the back for me, pat on the back for me
and her dad house.
Yeah To do that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Yes, pat on the back for me, pat on the back for me
and her dad, right yeah, to feelsafe enough to create art, and
to make art with an uncommonmedium, and ignore the dishes.
Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
And then tell you about it when you got home.
Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Yeah, she'll love that.
She'll be like check it out,mom.
She actually has a quote fromChapel Rhone on her wall, on her
vision board, Okay, and ChapelRhone said something akin to
what you said, which is I wantto make beauty and leave beauty
where there was none.
Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Nice yes.
Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Yeah, so you guys are all on the same vibe.
Good, how can creativity beaccessible for people who don't
consider themselves artists?
Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Well, I really like stealing Like.
Austin Kleon has a great bookcalled Steal Like an Artist.
But what I mean by that is, youknow, I think for a lot of
people the challenge is comingup with an idea, or you're
judging your idea, and you'llhear a lot of people like, oh, I
can't write, I don't think ofmyself as a writer, I don't
(01:01:39):
think of myself as a painter,but probably there's something
that you read or listened to orpainted, or someone else painted
, like there's a picture thatyou think could be better, and
so that is a good place to startand I use that a lot.
Sometimes I'll go to myfavorite poem, like Mary Oliver
I love, and so I'll just steal alead, the first two lines of
(01:02:02):
one of her poems, and then I'llrewrite the rest of it.
That'll get my juices going.
But you can do that withanything.
You can just open a newspaperor go at the grocery store, just
take the first two lines, thefirst two words of the
description of the Ritz crackersand just tell a story based on
that.
So that's good, it's veryaccessible, I think.
(01:02:24):
Just take something that yousee and try to make it better,
and that's fun.
Add your spin.
And then my favorite trick thatI learned in improv in improv,
as I'm sure you know, the ideais if someone comes up with an
idea, you don't say no, no, I'mnot going to do that, I'm going
to do this thing.
Instead, you always say yes andand so you add to it.
(01:02:47):
So that's a very fun way thatmakes things accessible.
But the jump and justify is myfavorite, so I use it in poetry
a lot where, uh, if you say, oh,okay, I, I'm gonna make a
painting, and you just jump, soyou do the first thing that
comes to mind and then the restof your task is to justify why
(01:03:09):
that was the perfect thing to dofirst.
I love that because it's mydaughter's seven and we had this
book for her when she was maybethree or four.
It's called Beautiful Oops, thewhole book.
It's a children's book andeverything is just like there's
a torn page or a paint splotchthat they turn into a chicken or
something.
Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Whether you write, draw, dance or simply pause to
notice beauty, your creativitymatters.
It doesn't have to be seen tobe sacred.
This week, let yourself makesomething, not for the world,
but for your heart.
Scott, if our listeners want toconnect with you, where can
they find you?
Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
Find me online scottandrewjamescom or
scottandrewjames on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
You've been listening to Couch Time with Cat on KWVH
94.3, recorded right here in theheart of Wimberley Valley.
If this episode moved, youshare it with someone who might
need it and, as always, takegood care of yourself and keep
creating from the inside out.
See you next time.
Welcome to Couch Time with Cat, your safe place for
real conversation and a gentlecheck-in.
Kwvh presents Couch Time withCat.
Hi, I'm Cat, trauma therapist,coach, tedx speaker,
best-selling author and yourhost here on Couch Time with Cat
.
I've spent over a decadewalking alongside people through
the real, raw and sacred workof becoming whole again.
(00:23):
Through the real, raw andsacred work of becoming whole
again.
Catch Time with Cat.
Mental Wellness with a FriendlyVoice is where we have
conversations that are equalparts science and soul.
This is where we get honestabout anxiety, grief, burnout,
relationships and the braveeveryday work of healing.
You don't have to have it allfigured out to belong here.
Whether you're tuning in rightfrom here in the Hill Country or
(00:44):
listening across the world, Iwant you to feel seen, supported
and reminded that you're notalone.
So find your cozy spot, take adeep breath and let's talk about
what it means to be humantogether.
There is something sacred aboutthe creative act, about putting
pen to paper, paint to canvasor truth into form.
(01:05):
Today, I'm joined by ScottAndrew James, poet, guide and
longtime creative partner.
You might know him as the manbehind 10,000 typewriter poems
or the author strategist who'shelped hundreds of voices make
it to the page.
Scott is someone whounderstands that creativity
isn't just output it's a form ofhealing.
(01:27):
Scott James is an acclaimedtypewriter, poet and the VP of
author strategies at PioneeringCollective, a thought leadership
accelerator based in New YorkCity.
As a poet, he has written over10,000 poems on demand and had
his work featured widely bytastemakers like Magnolia and
(01:48):
Tim Ferriss.
He has helped hundreds ofauthors publish their own books,
with many of them becomingbestsellers and driving millions
of dollars in new business.
He loves the work of helpingpeople get their ideas onto the
page and out into the world.
Get their ideas onto the pageand out into the world.
He lives in Austin, texas, withhis wife, daughter and their
goofy pug, hi.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Scott.
Hello Cat, thank you so muchfor having me.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'm honored by the introduction, oh my God, thank
you so much for being here.
I'm just so excited.
I'm like I'm kind of giddy,it's kind of.
It's kind of silly and fun.
But you and I have known eachother.
Listener Scott and I have knowneach other going on 10 years.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Gotta be 10 years.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Oh my God, that's a lot of professional growth and
personal growth for each of us.
Not that those are twodifferent things, honestly.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
A lot of growth and a lot of change.
It's very cool to be here andto see you on this.
You know everything that you'veaccomplished in the last 10
years and built.
Thank you, and to be part ofthis show.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Thank you, thank you, drew you to creating art in the
first place.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I have two answers, okay.
The first is when I was alittle kid, I made art before I
realized what it was, which Ithink is how a lot of people are
.
I was telling stories atsleepovers when I was, you know,
8, 9, 10 years old which isuncommon, especially for a
little boy and I was writingpoems for my grade school
(03:23):
girlfriends.
I was writing plays for theneighborhood kids.
So I was doing all of thatbefore I was really aware that
it wasn't common.
So that's my first answer.
And then, like many people, Istepped away from art.
I wasn't creative in the senseof making art, and you mentioned
(03:45):
the 10,000 poems in the intro.
So, around the age of 35, Istarted making art, again out of
desperation and deep despair.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
It sounds like you needed some healing and it just
kind of drew you like it calledyou.
It just kind of drew you likeit called you.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
It did.
I had just moved to Austin, Iwas married for about two or
three years and I was goingthrough a major sort of shift A
lot of who am I, what am I doing?
And we had moved from a placewhere I had lived for many years
to a place that I didn't knowat all.
Part of being here was aredefinition.
(04:27):
I was married, I was working inan office for the first time
and I was doing a lot of thingsthat prior to that hadn't been
part of my day to day.
I had been an outdoor guide andI had moved around a lot for
almost 15 years.
It was a lot of different thingsfor me and when I sat still as
you know very well I'm sure Igot married and I sat still for
(04:49):
the first time and I had a wholebunch of unresolved things that
I had to deal with.
I forget exactly what it was,but I think it was this guy
named Chris Guilbeault.
But I somehow got kind of thesmart goal formula stuck in my
head and I was like it's got tobe measurable and it's got to be
, you know, and for whateverreason that worked for me and I
(05:14):
said I am going to write andgive away 1000 poems in a year,
and that was kind of like myguideline.
And so I gave myself this goal,you know around Christmas or
January of a year, and I setabout it and I didn't intend for
it to be healing, I justintended for it to be a lifeline
.
The first thing that I tried todo was just make them up.
So there was kind of threestages to this becoming a
(05:36):
healing practice, art as healing.
The first stage was I justtried to write them like I can
do like very I would say, likerushing, like a formula line in
a football game.
What's?
that like a formula like aformula, but just aggressive.
I was like I could do.
I'm gonna write.
(05:56):
Like what?
When I tell people I wrote athousand poems in a year, the
first thing they say is the noteveryone, but most people will
do the math in their head andthey'll say, oh, that's like
three a day, which is how Ithought about it initially and I
thought, well, I got to writethree poems every day, let's go.
And then, because I'mcompetitive, so I thought, well,
(06:18):
I should write 10.
I'm going to get ahead, youknow what, if I want to go on
vacation or whatever.
That that's how I thought aboutit, like it was a task.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yes, that's a great word task.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
And so I did that.
And when I got to about thefirst like 75, 80, I ran out of
ideas and I was like I'm justwriting the same poem.
It's kind of like when youstart a new exercise routine.
I thought this sucks.
I like this thing, and so myfirst instinct was to well, I
(06:52):
asked my wife, but she didn'treally have suggestions for how
to proceed.
But what I ended up doing isasking her.
So I called people I trusted,trusted my wife, my brother, my
best friend, who is also a poet,and and what ended up happening
(07:13):
is that they would give meideas.
And so it was more like mesaying I don't know, like I was
talking about how hard it was awriter's block or I'm.
I'm unhappy with this, but Iwant to keep going.
It seems to help.
What do you think I shouldwrite about?
If you were me, what would youwrite about?
So it was really just a naturalflow of like for any project.
But what happened is then Iwould be on the phone with them
(07:36):
and I would write the poem andthen read it to them, because,
of course, it was just naturalLike oh well, I'll write it and
I'll read it to you and I foundthat that act was so easy.
Easy feels like a trivial way tosay it, but it worked, it
flowed.
There was some harmony.
(07:58):
How about the word ease, theroot word?
There was a harmony and it justgave me a sense of ease because
for me, the act of writing thepoem like opening the channel, I
would call it yes, it's veryrelaxing and very it feels like
home.
But coming up with the ideaturned out to be it's not that
(08:19):
it was a problem, because I didit 80 times in a row, but it was
past that so, coming up withmore ideas, and it blew my mind
at how much I loved it.
So that was the second stage.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Listener, as Scott is talking, my face is tingling
and I am gonna cry, and here'swhy because he is telling his
story.
I'm talking about you likeyou're not here, but okay, let
me talk about you like you'rehere Go for it.
You're telling your story and Ican hear and see a creative
(08:51):
template.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
And it's about for me at least.
Usually it's about bringingother people or ideas or energy
in, because creation isexpansive and so it sounds like
you got to the end of your ideasand something inside you knew
oh, I have to include otherpeople in this process.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yes, and it was another version of desperation,
and so this is another part ofthe story that comes in right
around here.
So I got myself invited to abackyard, and so this is another
part of the story that comes inright around here.
So I got myself invited to abackyard creative party.
It was called the Feast ofFools, based on the fool tarot
card.
(09:40):
That doesn't really come intoplay, except that in retrospect
it's a great name.
So I showed up and I decided totake my typewriter.
So I have always traveled, whenI was the outdoor guide, I
would take this old 1947 SmithCorona typewriter and it had
been given to me by mygrandmother and he was a
storyteller but he wasn't like apoet necessarily, and so it's
(10:03):
this great old, you knowmid-century typewriter that has
a case, so it's like an originallaptop, and so I would carry
that around and I would writepoems at sometimes I would.
Well, I didn't really writepoems, I wrote letters, I would
like typing them.
And also when I was this guideguide, we didn't have cell
(10:26):
phones and also I was frequentlyin places where there was
nowhere to communicate or no way, like there weren't phone lines
because I was camping just allthe time, and so this typewriter
for me was a bit of a way to Ilike, like the aesthetic, and
then I thought this is prettycool, it's fun to send people a
(10:48):
typed up letter.
So I sort of combined that oldpractice of just writing letters
, or I would make little zinesand leave them behind with
people, because that's moremeaningful.
What's a zine?
A zine is?
It's like a abbreviation ofmagazine.
Oh, a zine is like anabbreviation of magazine but
it's basically a DIY magazine.
(11:10):
So the way that I made them, theway that a lot of people made
them, they're big in high schoolor, let's say, in the circles
in art, kid poet, kid circles soyou can just type them, Xerox
them and then you fold them inhalf.
So the same way you would makelike a book or a book mock-up,
(11:33):
and then you can and they'rejust done.
You know, it's like DIYpublishing, low cost, and then
you can hand them out, you cansell them and then if you go to,
you know, to independentbookstores or college bookstores
, you can make them veryartfully handcrafted and just
like anything else.
They can be extremely exquisiteand one of a kind.
(11:54):
But that's what I would do isI'd make these little zines and
I would pass them out to thepeople, either the people I took
on trips or the people I workedwith, and so that was a
practice I had in the past, butI never did it, it was always
just from me.
It's basically self-publishing,but I would only write, you
know, 10 or 20 poems at a time.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
You say 10 or 20, like it's.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, well, that was the part.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, I, it was just the average Joe doesn't write
one, so 10 or 20 feels Whoa.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, that's a good, that's a good reminder.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
As you were going through this process, maybe did
you start understanding what youwere really feeling.
As you said, like you startedbeing creative, your wife said
hey, why don't you go back topoetry?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
It gave me.
Purpose is what it did, and itreminded me what it's like to
have purpose.
And so what happened?
The way that I, after I did allof those poems I was in I was
still had only done like 120,150, something like that.
And so I did.
The backyard party took mytypewriter and I wrote poems on
(13:10):
demand for people at the partywhich they loved, and I thought
this is great, I could just doit in the moment.
And for me it also matched mygoal because I was like I banged
out like 20 poems.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
You're still on the way to 1,000.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
That's right At that point, and so the next day I
walked down to like the foodtruck near my house and I just
sat there, and then, whilepeople were waiting for their
food, I would write them a poem.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
That takes a lot of guts.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah, I mean, and so on and so forth.
So I did that for a couplemonths, just all spring.
So I did that for a couplemonths, just all spring, you
know, I'd South by, I did someparties at South by, and then I
started getting people asking,inviting me to do their wedding,
and I would do, you know, 30,40 at a time, and so what ended
up happening is that I didn'thave to write a poem every day
(14:00):
and I would almost go into theselike fugue states where you're,
you know, major flow state, andI would write poems for just
hours, almost nonstop.
People wouldn't line up, so I'dhave a line of people.
That gave me, you know, itreminded me or maybe it
(14:24):
introduced me to the idea thatyou know, that this was a skill
that I had, or a talent, or justa gift, and so it gave me a
sense of like self-worth thatwas outside of work, it was
creative, and then also it gaveme a sense of purpose, because I
(14:46):
made it over the hump, you know.
So I was 300, 400 pounds and Iwas like, all right, I can do
this, and then things formedaround it and the healing part,
the stillness that you'retalking about, is.
I would very much lose myselfin it.
Every time it happened, theease in my shoulders.
I would always just relax intowhat felt like, and still feels
(15:10):
like a connection with just theuniverse, with divine energy,
with God just outside of myself,and I became the channel or the
vessel for things to be created.
And I think the most healingpart of it it's not so much what
(15:32):
it made me realize about myself, as much as it just got me out
of my head, yes, and connected.
So I wasn't really thinking,yeah, I was connected and I was
in my heart space and I was in.
It's similar to now I have adaughter and it's like when I'm
with my family, you know, I'mnot like worried about like how
does my hair look or somethingI'm just like with my family.
(15:54):
And so I had that sense of itwas me, it was the energy, it
was.
My typewriter became thiscrucible of like me and this
person are going to createsomething new that isn't really.
It's not by me, I'm not theauthor and it's also not like
neither one of us could havewritten this poem on our own.
(16:15):
I need their idea and they needme to type.
And so the typewriter becamethis like campfire, it became
this thing.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yes, yes, you throw a log.
I throw a log on the fire.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Like let's see what we can generate together.
Exactly so.
For me that was very healingbecause my problem, my challenge
, the thing that I get, the waythat I get in my own way, is I
isolate, I ruminate, those aremy things.
(16:52):
So this allowed me to be in acreative space and kind of
leapfrog resistance or leapfrogmy normal anxiety.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Let's talk about resistance.
Yeah.
So all that, that's the healingpart.
There were a lot ofrealizations and epiphanies, but
actually just that act andrealizing like, oh okay, so yeah
.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Can we talk about resistance for a moment?
Yeah, you introduced me to, ohmy God, one of my favorite books
.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
The War of Art?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Yes, Not the Art of War.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Not the Art of War, the War of Art.
And the premise of this book isthat we all have well, I don't
know about we all, but for sureI have a creative need.
I need to fulfill this, or elseit metastasizes inside of me.
(17:52):
Before you, I did not considermyself an artist.
I literally would say I'm notan artist.
And one time you and I sat atmy dining room table I probably
had a one-year-old at the time.
Every time I go to you, I amjust outside of my.
(18:17):
I am unreasonable.
I'm an unreasonablygoal-oriented person when I call
you and so, listener, we'lltell you a little bit more about
that, but in a moment.
But I told Scott I'm not anartist and he was like what are
you talking about?
Like you wrote a book.
That's not numbers, you know.
(18:37):
And that was the very firsttime I gave myself even the
permission.
I thought it was kind ofaudacious to think of myself as
an artist, because I thought ofartists as paint and paint
brushes or sketches and Ithought that's where artistry
lives.
The rest is, I don't know.
I hadn't given it a name.
(18:59):
If my creativity doesn't havesomewhere to go, it starts to,
like I said earlier, metastasizeand all that energy goes to my
head and my head startsruminating and it really it
starts kind of like wheelsspitting in mud.
(19:20):
I'm creating problems formyself where there were no
problems, and so this is a verycommon experience for a lot of
artists.
Will you talk about theresistance, or did you face any
resistance within yourself asyou were on this journey to
write a thousand poems in a year?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
I did at the beginning, like I'm talking
about here.
I think the resistance was whenI ran out of ideas.
I was terrified of going tothat food truck or sitting down
with a typewriter in a room fullof tech people who are drinking
.
All of my demons, you know allof my like self-judgment of you
(20:06):
know they're going to laugh atyou or this is stupid, it's not
going to work.
So all of that came up and thereason I say I leapfrogged it.
So the resistance did happen,but it's almost like I laid a
series of traps for myself.
(20:27):
That's not quite the right word, but Obstacles, yeah.
What's the opposite?
It's bait, it's like I baited.
Oh, bait Nice, Because it'salmost like I took some of my
insecurities and played themagainst each other, because I
was very anxious and it's veryhard to start up a first
(20:51):
conversation, but at the sametime I have just an ironclad
sense of integrity and loyalty.
So if I say to you I'm going todo something, I'll definitely
follow through, unless, you know, like anyone, occasionally
there's, you know, a healthcrisis or something.
But I'm going to do it, and itwould be deeply embarrassing to
(21:12):
not follow through.
And then, at the same time, Ihave pride, I have an ego, and
so when people would come to me,when people would say, hey, can
you come write poems here?
This is really cool what you'redoing, can you come write poems
over here?
I would say, of course, youknow.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, say yes and figure it out later.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
That's right.
And so often what would happenis then later I would be like,
oh God, I wish I didn't say yeah, and but then so I would have
that debate in my head.
So that was the version ofresistance that I learned.
The muscle that I learnedthroughout that year was like I
would always commit to doing it,partly out of pride and partly
(21:52):
after I did it a few times thenI realized, oh no, this is good
for me, like I feel it's.
It's like medicine.
I got the serotonin or whateveryou know, like my.
I felt so much better and mywife started to say I felt so
much better.
And my wife started to sayyou're so much better I don't
know if she said that exact word, but you're so much happier,
you're so much more yourself.
(22:12):
For like three days after youcome home from an event, and it
was essentially like taking mymedicine.
And so I started to realizelike, oh, that's the leapfrog, I
just say yes, if I can jumpover that.
And what happened is it becamelike a flywheel.
So I would be at an event and Iwould get invited to one or two
or five more at the event.
(22:34):
So once I got past the firstmonth or so.
Then I just, and it's continued, I still have people calling me
and so I don't actually have toput myself out there anymore,
in the same way Like I don'thave to leapfrog it.
It's like that first six weeks.
So the resistance that I feltwas I overcame it by almost like
(22:58):
using my ego or pride.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Yeah, yeah, I think ego and pride has to do with it.
I've always loved movements indifferent forms and I really
like to show off in a lot ofways, and so I don't just want a
Monday Wednesday yoga class, Ineed to do the hardest.
Monday Wednesday yoga classthat ever was Nice.
(23:21):
And so a few months ago Idiscovered um, discovered
endurance running, so ultrarunning, and I had already ran a
marathon so I couldn't sign upfor a marathon.
My ego said you need to dolonger.
So I signed up for an ultra.
A trail ultra was humbledbeyond, took three weeks to lick
(23:42):
my wounds and signed up foranother one.
And also my ego in play saidyou've already done 50K, needs
to be longer.
So now it's 52K, nice, and theact of running is my medicine
(24:07):
Any movement.
But I really enjoy vigorous,challenging movement.
It's like I'm a labrador and Ineed to take myself for a run
and after all that energy hasexpended, I'm able to be really
present with the people that Ilove.
If I have extra energy at 9 pmnight, it's not good for me and
I've just really leaned intothat truth and accepted that.
(24:27):
So I know that signing up forraces every six months, that is
my ego and I'm just okay with it.
I'm like that's fine.
That's just that's fine.
My ego is in charge when I signup for the race, but you know
who's in charge when I'm runningon a Monday, wednesday, friday
in my garage by myself.
That's my higher self, becauseI'm doing it with the intention
(24:52):
of being present with the peoplethat I love.
So I just kind of I take mymedicine and I just enjoy the
good that it brings me and I'vejust kind of leaned into that
truth about myself and acceptedit.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And I have no problem saying I really enjoy being
special, I really enjoy showingoff, I really like just part of
me needs that.
But you know what, if I feedthat part of me, I get to then
be really present with myclients, present with you right
now, present with my kids and myhusband.
(25:30):
And so I think just the older Iget, the more I'm okay with
holding those tensions.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I love that.
You know, I just had anepiphany while you were talking
oh, tell, tell, yeah.
Well, I think one.
I guess it's a two-part.
So there's this artist namedmusical artist, named East
Forest, and he makes ambientmusic and he has this one song
(26:04):
that I believe is called it'seither the grandmother's sphere,
like the atmosphere, butgrandmother, grandmother's
sphere but grandfather's sphere,and it's just about being in
that energy.
I think it's grandmother'ssphere and in the song.
Now I'm not positive if it'sthat song, but there's a
(26:25):
voiceover that he does where hetalks about I didn't transcend
my ego.
We became partners, yes, andthat line has always bothered me
.
Oh, really, it always made meangry, like I liked him as an
artist, but anytime I heard thatI was like that's ridiculous,
(26:51):
which is funny now to say it'sjust something I thought.
But as you were talking and aswe're talking about this, I
realized because, like beforeyou started talking about that,
I said I don't really understandit.
But that is now I get itbecause you're right, it is
everything you said is such a.
It just resonates so much astrue and that, so yeah.
(27:17):
I feel like it's not aboutdissolving or removing the ego
completely, but now I see okay,yeah, so I suppose I dealt with
my resistance by becoming apartner with my ego, rather than
doing.
Hello, ego Hi Hello.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
You've served us well .
Sometimes a little too much,yeah, but in dose of.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
That's very uncomfortable to talk about ego.
This is uncomfortable right now.
I like it, thank you.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Thanks for jumping into it.
So, the artist, I'm witnessingyou currently and you're
witnessing me, and this is adeep moment.
This isn't just, you know,coffee chat.
We're not talking about RealHousewives here of Beverly Hills
or anything.
You know, we're really into it.
(28:13):
Yeah, have you ever?
Well, I'm sure, but can youtell me about writing poems for
somebody on demand?
Yeah, you give it to them.
You have opened your creativityup.
Your heart opens to them.
You hand them this poem.
(28:34):
I know because I have been onthe side of.
One time I showed up at a partylistener and Scott was there
and I was like Scott, hello, hi,how do you what?
I was so confused, I was soconfused and he wrote me a poem
(28:54):
and I still have it and I thinkit's beautiful.
I have many of Scott's art inmy home, but that's one and I
remember thinking oh, how did hesee that?
so what's it like to hold spacefor somebody else's emotion, who
often you don't know them, butyou give them this gift and then
(29:17):
they, it brings up something inthem.
What's it like to see that?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
it's very humbling, I when I so I one another thing
that happened that is healing.
It touches on healing but it'sreally sort of I think of
healing as getting back tobaseline.
But that might not be true with.
(29:49):
Oh, I wrote these poems to sortof get out of depression, and I
did, and then I started to pushmyself and go, you know, new
things, growth, like we'retalking about signing up the
poetic version.
You know, after I did the firstthousand poems or the first
couple hundred, then I wasgrowing because it was real and
it was the ultra marathon, youknow, and I had to lick my
wounds for three weeks, a coupleof times too, or I hurt myself
(30:12):
and hurt my brain Overextended,overextended, yeah or it
impacted other parts of my life,but the thing that was so it
taught me about boundaries andit taught me about energetic
boundaries and containers andhow to live in that moment that
(30:35):
you're talking about, when Ishow up and I sit across from
someone.
Now, I'm not trained or anything.
I was an English major incollege and I work in books and
I work in art, but I don't haveany sort of formal training
interacting with people.
I've been a facilitator,outdoor guide, things like that.
So I've picked up things alongthe way, but it's not a formal
(30:58):
education, it's what I've puttogether.
That I realized very, veryearly on is that some people are
just going to vomit on likethey're going.
You know they're going likethey need it so much.
They're never listened to.
(31:19):
Oh yeah.
They don't listen to themselves,and so they're just going to
dump on me and then other peopleyou know, and so on and so
forth, on me, and then otherpeople you know, and it's so on
and so forth, and there's adifferent, almost archetypes of
how people will unload.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
There's like poor energy etiquette out there poor,
yeah, very much so.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
And poor, the other version of poor oh, yes, yes, I
didn not hearing them Like what?
Very frequently.
What do you mean?
Like they would give me a poem.
(32:16):
They would talk.
Like they would just, let's say, two people sit down, husband
and wife or two girlfriends, andone of them's getting a poem
and as they talk about it, Istart typing and then they would
just start talking about thisexperience.
Oh, he's doing this and Ithought he would be like this,
or I thought it would you know.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Wow, is that bizarre.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, so that was bizarre.
And when you bring up theenergetic part, like that's, I
don't know if it's the shadowside, but it's kind of the
darker version of the awefeeling, because I had to get
used to that and just fill inthe blank of every possible
conversation.
I also had people very, veryfrequently, you know, like if I
(33:00):
wrote 50 poems in a night, thiswould happen 10 times.
They would tell me a word andthen I would start typing the
poem and they would justcontinue talking to me like
we're talking now.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
As if you could do both at the same time.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Yeah, but I think that it just didn't register for
them what was going on, whichis fine, and I'm not going to
correct them, or I chose not tocorrect them.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Like they're getting a manicure.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
That's how it was, like that, like it's just
happening.
So I learned a lot of thosetools and so I would show up and
be very I think now I'velearned that this is very common
for, like a musician or youknow anyone, I'd be interested
to hear if you have practicesyourself.
But I had.
So I developed and then I woulddevelop it for the couple hours
(33:51):
leading up to it and theneventually it rippled out into
my life to almost a 24 to 48hour routine where, if I knew I
was going, I would eat a certainway Hygiene is the word I would
practice different sleephygiene leading into it.
And then I would practice likethere's certain music I wouldn't
(34:11):
listen to on the way to apoetry event.
There's certain shows Iwouldn't watch because I knew I
was going to open my mind, mypsyche, and I was going to allow
other people to come in to mixand I had to walk the line of
like you know, there's like minein the middle, middle.
And then there's the part thatI'm sharing, that is the
(34:33):
pass-through part, and thenthere's the part where that's
not mine at all.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
There's so much discernment in your routine.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
And that was the most healing thing, because what
happened is, once I starteddoing this a lot, and now it's
been 12 years that became justhow I was, and so eventually I
quit drinking.
I changed all my relationships,and so that was the most
healing part was realizing like,oh, and at this point I don't
even need to do the poetry, Atthis point I just arrive.
(35:03):
The practices and the hygieneand the discernment have become
just how I.
It's who the aspects of myselfthat needed to come out and play
.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
It sounds like.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
They needed the poetry to get there.
Yes, yes yes, but I don't needit anymore.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
I have similar practices.
I do many different things,including get off social media.
No wine, better sleep.
So there are just, yes, thoseallow me.
(35:38):
I know that those allow me topull from places inside myself
that I do not have access to ifI'm cloudy for any reason and
actually yesterday I had areally cloudy day and I told
Anthony, my husband don't let mecut my bangs, don't let me.
Yes, right, yes, don't let memake any decisions.
(36:03):
And not that it's hisresponsibility, it's.
It was more just like a mesharing out loud.
I know I'm kind of on thin iceenergetically right now, so I
need to drive more slowly, Ineed to eat more vegetables.
I hadn't been sleeping well.
We got a puppy, so I've had I'mjust like on week three of oh,
(36:27):
six hours sleep, waking up atthree in the morning and I
thought, no, no, no, no, no.
I cannot be going out on limbsright now.
I need to kind of secure my ownenergy before I go out on the
limb.
So last night I got seven hourssleep and I feel like an
amazing person today.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
But yes, you're a superwoman.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, I'm like, let's do it.
So, yes, energetic hygienesomething.
Yeah, I'm like, let's do it.
So, yes, energetic hygiene.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Don't let me cut my bangs.
That would be a good name for apoem, that would be a good name
for anything like that.
But that part is that's areally good example of that.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
And then the flip side of that like like okay, now
I'm ready to cut my bangs yes,now I know that I want to and
it's coming from a differentplace inside of me.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yes, instead of exasperated discernment yes,
that's the right word discern,but that that was the healing.
I think of all of this, but Ilove that, and and being able to
understand that about myselfwas the gift of the practice,
the art.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
When you take, when we take really good care of
ourselves, we're moretrustworthy for the people
around us Big time people aroundus.
And listener Scott hasexcellent boundaries.
I complimented him.
I'm not even sure if heremembers, but I said I just
(37:57):
really appreciate that you haveexcellent boundaries, Like it
makes me feel really safe andreally good, because when
somebody takes care ofthemselves, I don't have to do
mental gymnastics for that andin my mind you're a man who
takes good care of himself.
So I can just assume Scott'sgot that covered.
(38:19):
I don't have to do any extrawork.
He's going to take good care ofhimself, he's going to let me
know what he needs and I don'thave to second guess anything.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Just to go back to your original question as long
as I do that, I learned that ifI do that, I'm able to be there
and no matter literally nomatter what happens.
And I've seen everything.
I've seen violence, I've seenpeople get in fights, people
break down At a poem, at a poem,fall in love with me.
Oh yeah, at the table Really.
Oh yeah, wow.
(38:50):
And it's wild because it that'swhat I mean is people come up
to the table and they you know,I invite them, like you, give me
a word, and then I might saywhy do you pick that word?
And for some people it reallyjust opens them.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Wow, you know it elicits that much.
They're at a wedding.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Oh my opens them.
Wow, it elicits that much, ohmy God, that much emotion.
Yeah, husband and wife, theysit down.
It's amazing what kind ofconversations happen between a
husband and wife or a boyfriendand girlfriend, or any partners
or parents and their children,if they are trying to pick a
word together.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Oh no, that sounds like therapy.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I'm going to put my cards on your poem table, you
should.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
So you're going to get whatever is, you know, just
under the surface.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yes, yes, yes, whatever is going to boil over.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
At that tape as this poem is being created, and so,
yeah, I mean I don't want toexaggerate, it's not violence
like people are getting in paintthe poem and I still do it
(40:08):
sometimes and you know it'sapproaching, it's tangential to
art therapy, in the sense thatpeople might have not used
watercolor, let's say, for 20years, and now they're a drink
and a half in at their friend'swedding and however they feel
(40:31):
about themselves is that's whatwe're talking about.
Wow, and that's common.
That is the practice, that isinstant poetry.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Wow, that must be so powerful to witness.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Yeah, and so I would watch in.
So I have my hygiene in place,I have my container and I know
how much I'm going to engagewith that person, and I'm going
to do it freely and withouthesitation, because I know the
edges.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Right, you're giving of yourself as much as you want
to give, but not more.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, we're both.
That's the campfire.
Both put our log.
I know what my log is.
I brought my log.
Then when it's done, you knowI'm going to continue with the
campfire thing.
So the campfire and then youcan't control what the fire
looks like, and sometimes it'sjust really magical, and
sometimes the Milky Way is out,and sometimes you know like
(41:28):
Jupiter and Venus are in thepredawn sky, like right now.
And so when you sit down, likethat's what's happening.
And so I got to engage withjust the world reality on this
whole level, where for severalhours I was just in awe, like
(41:49):
I'm almost going to cry thinkingabout it, because when I sit
down to do it, that's what'shappening for me.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Wow, you create your own little micro world.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Oh yeah, and it's just creative.
And the poems are coming up andI don't own them, I don't plan
them.
You know, some people think Imemorize.
I have like 10 templates in myhead.
Or you know, some people areshocked that I invent them on
the spot and they think I'm liketyping up a poem.
Some people bring me a poem andthey say I want TS Eliot or I
(42:22):
want Mary Oliver, and they wantme to just copy it off their
iPhone or something.
Oh wow, but that's not what'shappening.
It's all in the ether.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Yeah, but it is A creative act is the unknown.
So maybe one day the campfireis beautiful and maybe one day
it burns everything down Likeit's not.
That's right, like it's not.
And it's part of creativity.
And being creative together iswatching the unfolding.
I mean, you can, you can try tomold it, but ultimately it's
(43:07):
going to unfold in a way thatyou may not, which brings me to
my next part.
So, listener, I want to tellyou a little bit about what it's
like to work with Scott.
I met Scott in I really don'tknow, I'm going to guess in 2017
, but I'm not really sure, maybe2016, but I published my first
book in 2017.
And God sent me Scott through amom blogger, alisa Hi, alisa,
(43:31):
thank you so much.
And I was having troublepublishing and she said why
don't you call my colleagueScott James?
And so I called Scott and hestarted helping me and he helped
me.
I had already written the bookand it was in some legal holdup,
(43:53):
and so Scott helped me throughthe time when I was getting my
book back and he helped mepublish the first.
He helped me title it also.
It was so fun to do the titleexercise.
I love that title, so that wasa really interesting experience
(44:28):
because I had already written it, it had already been edited,
but it was on pause because ofsome legal things with the
publisher, and so he helped mebring it to life in a way that I
was really proud of, because ithad been held up and the juju
around it sucked because I wasangry because somebody had taken
(44:50):
my work, and Scott helped mebring it into the world in a way
that I was, that I'm still soproud of, and we did it at my
dining room table, and everytime I told him I'm going to do
this, he was like okay, like notsure, cause he had just met me
and he was.
He didn't know that I wasaggressively setting goals, but
(45:12):
that was my MO back then.
Right, yeah, or still, oralways.
It was so fun, it was so, sofun.
And then, a few years later, hehelped me create a TEDx talk
called Choose Joy or Die.
And so what happens is I cometo Scott with this really raw
idea and with this energy thatis just like pokey I'm thinking
(45:38):
of, like a geode, like my energy.
When I get to Scott, I'm likehere, here's what I've got and I
have something to share, but Idon't exactly know how to share
it or how to refine it.
And so Scott helped me create aTEDx talk, a beautiful TEDx
(46:00):
talk.
It was awesome.
And then, a few years later, Isaid I've got a book and I don't
know what to do with it.
And it was just a gentle return, was halfway, I had written a
lot, but it didn't have any form, and I was just desperate to
(46:20):
give it form.
And so what Scott did was heasked me thousands of questions
like just, like whittling, likea blog, just, or let's go back
to the geode, like chiseling thegeode.
And so what working with Scottlooks like is weekly meetings,
(46:43):
lots of homework, lots ofexploration in between, like
read this book, figure this out,read this, figure this out.
How do you feel about this?
It looks like lots of what isit killing your babies?
What is that term?
Killing your babies?
Oh, yeah, I've killed lots ofbabies.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Lots of.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
The second book, a Gentle Return, is a book of
essays, and there were manyessays in there that were going
to be in there but that wereslaughtered because they just
didn't fit the end product,which I completely appreciate.
So when I go to Scott, when Iwrite a book, I write it for
myself.
(47:25):
First, the actual writing.
I take pen to paper and I writeit for my own heart, and by the
time I call Scott, that's likeokay, now this is going to be
for public consumption.
So then it's art for the public.
That's how I see it anyway, andso you can thank Scott for
(47:48):
making me, helping me makebeautiful art.
That's what lands on yourcoffee tables or in your
bookshelves or in your ears ifyou're listening to the
audiobook.
Scott's the, not the chiseler,that can't be right.
You're Michelangelo with theDavid.
I don't know I'm not the David,but let's have a metaphor that
(48:10):
works.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
I'm going to try to extend the campfire.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Please, because those metaphors were just not working
.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
I called myself a publishing guide for many years,
intentionally guide rather thancoach, Because I, you know,
actually similar to your pinflag concept, with courage to
become.
I often think you know, we allknow what we're trying to do
(48:43):
here.
We're trying to write a book,but we don't Like that's very
tangible.
We're trying to write a book,but we don't.
That's very tangible.
But what is it about?
What's important?
What stays inside of it?
What are you trying to say?
Who are you trying to say it to?
(49:04):
I think that's where the guidepart comes in.
So that's how I think of myself.
The chiseler, yes, but to meit's more like you know, like
hurting the cats of our brainsand saying like this is you know
?
Is that, do you want to go that?
Like you said, how does it feel?
(49:24):
And I ask those questions a lot,Like how do you feel about
cutting this essay?
Or how do you feel about usingthe word gentle, how do you feel
about the heroine's journey?
And those kinds of questionsare very it's not common for an
(49:47):
editor.
So I'm specifically not aneditor when I think about books,
because I think an editor ismore like a chiseler in the
sense of okay, you gave me thisform and I'm going to shape it
based on some objective criteria, not to insult any editors.
Every editor has their processand a lot of it is is deep, but
(50:09):
any editors.
Every editor has their processand a lot of it is is deep, but
I I love the journey metaphor,you know, and I was an outdoor
guide yes, I think it's just howI interact with the world.
And, uh, and, before that I wasa teacher.
I was an english teacher and soyou know, like inherent, like
(50:31):
what do teachers do?
You know?
It's not a tabula rasa processwhere I'm just beaming knowledge
in your head.
I was the kind of teacher and Ithink good teachers are where
they're trying to get you tosort of figure out what you
think.
And so I have that, plus theguiding, which is literally like
I would always let people gothe wrong way, not forever, but
(50:57):
we could try that, and maybewrong way is the wrong way to
say it.
I'd let them go.
You know, road less traveled IfI knew like, well, we're trying
to get across this lake andmost people land over here, but
you want to try to land overthere?
Let's see what happens.
Let's see what happens Sometimesthey'll be like, no, let's try
the other way again, and soright, and sometimes you go back
(51:18):
, but then you know, and it'sdifferent to take the original
road, when you just had atwo-hour excursion over here and
you had a snack and you maybefound a snake or something, and
then you come back and you havethat story, and so that story
comes with you and you walk downthe path differently than if
(51:39):
someone just tells you you haveto go on this path, because then
the story you're taking withyou down that path is like I'm
not allowed over there, it'sprescribed and it's not your
book.
That's right, that's right, andyou didn't figure it out.
And so I try to walk thatbalance.
So I like that's what I wouldsay guide, and that's what
(51:59):
guides do.
So here we go.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Well, you're very good at it.
You do the campfire every night, so Well, you're good at it and
I I'm just you're great at itand I'm just so grateful to have
met you almost 10 years ago andgrateful to be a creative
partner with you from time totime yeah, it's.
Speaker 2 (52:25):
Uh, it's been incredibly rewarding to work
with you and to see your booksand your TED Talk come to life
and yeah, it's helping.
And I guess the other piece isthat there's a million little
details that are very archaicand about the physical act of
(52:47):
making a book or a you know50,000 word document, which are
very cumbersome and if they getin your way, if you haven't done
them before.
That's true, those things Iknow, so you can remove the
friction that doesn't helppeople and just Keep the
friction that does.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
That's right, exactly .
And just keep the friction thatdoes that's right, exactly,
scott.
Are there any creative ritualsthat support your well-being?
So let's say you go out andyou're about to do Poetry on
Demand for 40 people.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
I'm going to be doing that tomorrow morning.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
Oh, excellent.
Is there something you're doingtoday or that you've done in
the last few days?
Oh, excellent, is theresomething you're doing today or
that you've done in the last fewdays?
We know you keep your containerof energy clean and you're
discerning in that way.
Is there something?
Speaker 2 (53:40):
else that kind of keeps those juices flowing.
For you, the two big ones, Imean, I really have found that
just my whatever workout routineor meditation routine that I
have, you know everybody ebbsand flows.
So I just make sure thatwhatever I'm doing presently, I,
if I'm gonna go do a creativesession, I make sure that I'm,
(54:02):
I'm on it, you know, for thecouple days leading up to it,
because if and I and I drinkenough water and I eat regularly
and I get good sleep.
So those things are tablestakes at this point.
But one thing I do is about 48,72 hours before an event.
(54:23):
I always take a moment and it'sa prayer, it's a type of prayer
, but I will just pause and Ialmost never plan it and it's
not, there's no words.
I just pause and I sort of Ienvision a space deep inside of
(54:44):
me opening up for the peoplethat are going to come to my
table.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
That's so generous.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Yeah, and I because it's a nod to my original
resistance, which is, I know,like I can say for sure, tonight
I'm going to think I don't wantto get up and go do this
tomorrow, and then I'll go.
I'll probably think thattomorrow morning, until I get
(55:16):
there, like I'll be angry at theyou know, irrationally angry at
the people who invited me there, like why are you in my way?
Or like if you know, if there'sany kind of You're like, I just
want a taco.
That's right.
Why can't I go get a taco rightnow?
It's your fault, I'll have allthose thoughts and that's fine.
(55:40):
I don't, you know, they're justin the wind going through my
psyche, but I, so that's a bigone for me is to open up that
space deep inside.
And what I always think thesame thing, which is I envision
myself, I imagine myself thereand I say I'm going to have fun,
(56:01):
and I smile, and so, like Ijust remind myself 48 hours out
that I am going to love it.
So it becomes a reminder andpredictive.
You know, it's just keep thechain going.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
That's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (56:19):
Like.
This is how I'm going to feelan hour in.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Yes, I heard a surfer on the Rich Roll podcast.
His name is John John Florence.
I feel weird calling him JohnJohn.
I don't know if that's anickname or his real name.
Yeah right, sounds casual.
John John Florence.
I feel weird calling him JohnJohn.
I don't know if that's anickname or his real name.
(56:42):
But he said, before he does abig event, he meditates and he
asks himself how he wants tofeel during the event.
He doesn't focus on winning orwhat skills he wants to show,
rather, he wants to show Rather.
The meditation is on how hewants to feel, and that is what
shows up for him then in theevent, and then the result is a
byproduct of that.
But he's not chasing thefeeling, but he's calling in the
(57:03):
feeling.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Yep, that sounds very familiar, thanks.
Speaker 1 (57:09):
Jon Jon.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
Yeah.
And then the other ritual Ireally like and this one's very
short is anytime I encounterresistance, I like to say let's
see what happens, let's see whathappens if, and then I can.
Then I that's like my verbalway of saying I can do whatever
(57:30):
I want now.
Speaker 1 (57:32):
Then your back is not in a corner.
Yeah, you've still got a littleout, yeah, and you're like this
is my choice.
Thank you very much.
And so it gives you a littlespace not to feel so bossed
around.
That's right.
That's right.
What role do you think artistsplay in collective healing?
Speaker 2 (57:54):
I think that art, I do very much think of art as
healing, art as a healingpractice.
So I guess I, what role does itplay?
I view it as almost theresponsibility, at least the
opportunity for each individualto make something.
So I discovered this word.
(58:15):
So I don't think of it as like,oh, someone's going to make art
, like protest art or not tosingle out protests, but uh, and
I'm not against it, but it just, it seems to me performative,
or it it becomes something else.
(58:36):
Like I personally, I'm not veryconnected to the idea of art as
like everybody goes to look atthe Mona Lisa or everybody goes,
you know, there's like a bigiconic thing, a picture of
someone that doesn't work, thatdoesn't do it for me.
That's not my interaction withart.
(58:57):
For me, the interaction withart is the creative part.
That is how I feel about mypoems.
So the collective healing, Ithink, is the stillness that
comes from the act of creating.
In Greek there's this word,poiesis, and you know
translations are tough, but myfavorite translation that I've
found I don't know Greek is tocreate something where there was
(59:18):
nothing before.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
I came home and my daughter had been at the house
for a while but she said look,mom, I made this and she had lit
a candle and made art with thewax from the candle and I
thought, okay, that's good.
Yeah, she was still enough,creative enough.
(59:45):
She looked around, said let medo something.
And the dishes weren't done,which, you know, made me like
tense up my shoulders.
But the real beauty in that isthat she was still enough
(01:00:10):
observant enough, open enough tolook at a candle and make some
art out of it and I thoughtthat's good, that's a win.
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
It's a huge win and she felt safe enough and had the
autonomy within your house todo that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Yes, pat on the back for me, pat on the back for me
and her dad house.
Yeah To do that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Yes, pat on the back for me, pat on the back for me
and her dad, right yeah, to feelsafe enough to create art, and
to make art with an uncommonmedium, and ignore the dishes.
Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
And then tell you about it when you got home.
Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
Yeah, she'll love that.
She'll be like check it out,mom.
She actually has a quote fromChapel Rhone on her wall, on her
vision board, Okay, and ChapelRhone said something akin to
what you said, which is I wantto make beauty and leave beauty
where there was none.
Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Nice yes.
Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Yeah, so you guys are all on the same vibe.
Good, how can creativity beaccessible for people who don't
consider themselves artists?
Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Well, I really like stealing Like.
Austin Kleon has a great bookcalled Steal Like an Artist.
But what I mean by that is, youknow, I think for a lot of
people the challenge is comingup with an idea, or you're
judging your idea, and you'llhear a lot of people like, oh, I
can't write, I don't think ofmyself as a writer, I don't
(01:01:39):
think of myself as a painter,but probably there's something
that you read or listened to orpainted, or someone else painted
, like there's a picture thatyou think could be better, and
so that is a good place to startand I use that a lot.
Sometimes I'll go to myfavorite poem, like Mary Oliver
I love, and so I'll just steal alead, the first two lines of
(01:02:02):
one of her poems, and then I'llrewrite the rest of it.
That'll get my juices going.
But you can do that withanything.
You can just open a newspaperor go at the grocery store, just
take the first two lines, thefirst two words of the
description of the Ritz crackersand just tell a story based on
that.
So that's good, it's veryaccessible, I think.
(01:02:24):
Just take something that yousee and try to make it better,
and that's fun.
Add your spin.
And then my favorite trick thatI learned in improv in improv,
as I'm sure you know, the ideais if someone comes up with an
idea, you don't say no, no, I'mnot going to do that, I'm going
to do this thing.
Instead, you always say yes andand so you add to it.
(01:02:47):
So that's a very fun way thatmakes things accessible.
But the jump and justify is myfavorite, so I use it in poetry
a lot where, uh, if you say, oh,okay, I, I'm gonna make a
painting, and you just jump, soyou do the first thing that
comes to mind and then the restof your task is to justify why
(01:03:09):
that was the perfect thing to dofirst.
I love that because it's mydaughter's seven and we had this
book for her when she was maybethree or four.
It's called Beautiful Oops, thewhole book.
It's a children's book andeverything is just like there's
a torn page or a paint splotchthat they turn into a chicken or
something.
Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Whether you write, draw, dance or simply pause to
notice beauty, your creativitymatters.
It doesn't have to be seen tobe sacred.
This week, let yourself makesomething, not for the world,
but for your heart.
Scott, if our listeners want toconnect with you, where can
they find you?
Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
Find me online scottandrewjamescom or
scottandrewjames on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
You've been listening to Couch Time with Cat on KWVH
94.3, recorded right here in theheart of Wimberley Valley.
If this episode moved, youshare it with someone who might
need it and, as always, takegood care of yourself and keep
creating from the inside out.
See you next time.
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