April 29, 2025 • 26 mins
Step into 'Doc Walks' with indie filmmakers Keith Maitland and Ben Steinbauer as they kick off this walk & talk podcast with a pilot episode focused on their documentary origins, storytelling motivations, personal frailties, and a few bird sightings. Tune in for candid conversations, industry insights, and the ambient sounds of Austin's hike and bike trail.
From The Bear and Go Valley comes the show you didn’t know you wanted (or needed, probably). Hosted, produced, and edited by Ben Steinbauer and Keith Maitland, with help from Tanner Bass. Theme song by Sam Billen and Primary Color Music.
00:00 Introduction and Sound Check
00:40 Launching the Podcast: Doc Walks
02:03 The Concept Behind Doc Walks
02:56 Insights on Documentary Filmmaking
06:22 Personal Journeys into Filmmaking
12:06 Challenges and Realities of Filmmaking
13:53 The Collaborative Nature of Filmmaking
17:19 Synchronicity and Creative Inspiration
25:34 Conclusion and Future Plans
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Recording.
(00:02):
All right, we are rolling.
Sound speeds.
Sound as we say in the biz.
Sound speeds.
And I don't know how defactoI became the sound guy.
You volunteered.
I did.
But you brought the mics.
I just kind of startedputting everything on.
(00:23):
That's
good.
Just uh, shows good initiative.
It's like go, go get a attitudethat you need in early development.
I do.
I am enthusiastic.
My skill level is questionable,but my enthusiasm is high.
All right.
What do you think?
We ready?
I think so.
Should we do this?
Let's do it.
And we are off.
On the inaugural episode of Wary
(00:46):
Well, that may be the placeto start is what's in a name.
Does
that
mean that you are
not feeling
wary?
I think Wary is a great name for adocumentary podcast about walking,
but for a walk about documentaries.
A don't feel like it's a a great name.
(01:08):
You're listening to Doc Walks.
With Ben and Keith.
Well, I'm Ben Steinhowerand you are Keith Maitland.
And what are we doing, Keith?
Well, I'm not sure what you're doing,but I'm feeling a little silly walking
down the street in Austin, Texas, talkingto my friend who I go on biweekly walks
(01:29):
with without the benefit of a recorder.
Um, where we walk andtalk and walk and dock.
We dock walk, we, we dock, walk.
Whoa.
Crossing the street about to get hit.
Here we go.
Okay, so we're walkingand talking and talking.
Documentary dock walkinghere in Austin, Texas.
(01:53):
We're
walking past a baseball field nearBarton Springs Road on the way to the
hike and bike trail next to the lake.
What are we doing here, Ben?
I told you from the beginning, Ijust love our walks and our talks.
And I thought that it would be fun totry to record 'em, pull some guests in,
and as working documentary filmmakers,see if we can't make something of
(02:17):
value for other people to listen to.
I think that there couldbe some value to that.
Yes, taking a look at like the creativeapproaches to documentary filmmaking,
that's my favorite thing to talk about,but also looking at the industrial
side of how do you make a career?
Out of this art form, how do youreact to the state of the world,
(02:37):
politically and socially throughthe work of figuring out how to keep
the lights on and pay your mortgageif you're lucky enough to have one?
And so that's what I kind ofhope we get into on these.
And as we reach out to guests andhave people join us on these walks,
I'll be looking for new perspectivesand, and expansions on those themes.
How about you?
Yes.
I think, uh, anytime I talk toanother director about their career,
(03:01):
I feel like I always learn a lot.
I remember when I was getting startedgoing to panels at South by Southwest
or Hot Dogs or something like that andwatching these kind of like, I. Name
brand filmmakers sit up on the panel.
You know, people like, like Gordon Quinnor Errol Morris or Paul Steckler or
somebody like that who would say, oh,it just keeps getting harder and harder.
I could never make the filmsI made early in my career.
(03:23):
Now it's just so impossible.
And I remember as like ayoung, emerging filmmaker.
Being really annoyed by those fuckers.
Like, shut up.
You're up there on the panel.
You just made a, another great filmand a series of films, and we're out
here just trying to figure out howto catch a little bit of that edge.
And so listening to themcomplain about how hard it's
gotten never really spoke to me.
(03:43):
So I don't wanna becomeone of those old guys.
I do see what they're sayingnow, but at the same time.
I think you have to be kind of ahopeless optimist to do this work.
And even though like most of ourcontemporaries and the people
that we followed are not shy aboutgrumbling, about the realities and
the confusions and the challengesof this work and this industry, if
(04:03):
you're not waking up every morning.
Thinking, today's the dayI'm gonna figure it out.
Today's the day I'm gonna crack the code.
I don't know what else gets you through.
So are you waking up every morningthinking this is today's the day?
Uh, not consciously.
I don't know if today's, today'sthe day that I'm gonna figure
out the industry or figure outmy career, but today's definitely
the day to play with a new idea.
(04:24):
That's, that's every day for sure.
Love that.
I love that.
And that's part of what thispodcast is for me, is talking about.
Our careers as documentaryfilmmakers and the highs, the
lows, gutter balls, the strikes,
the constant state of confusion isthe way I like to look at my career.
Uh, which I love to hear, of course.
(04:46):
Uh, but every time we go for awalk, you tell me some amazing
story about a meeting that you'vehad or a project that is getting
funded by a very impressive company.
And, uh, I love the movies that youmake and I love our friendship and I
love talking documentaries with you.
So when the idea.
It came about.
(05:07):
Uh, I think we both werelike, why would we do that?
Yeah.
Why,
why would we ruin a good thing?
And yet here we are.
It's almost like we can't help ourselves.
Well.
I think you have an infectious,uh, enthusiasm and I had
a hard time saying no.
Even though I question and doubt it, andI doubt that will go away anytime soon.
(05:29):
Well, don't you feel that way whenyou're making your documentaries?
Yes.
That is the only way I know how to feel.
Well then I, I think by thatlogic, we're onto something.
What you might be hearingis the sound of grackles.
(05:49):
Now, I don't know a lot about Grackles,but I don't know of any other town
that has the sheer amount of gracklesthat Austin has at this time of year.
And what would you saya grackle sounds like?
I mean, they g crack at you.
That's what's the name?
They're racking it up, up there in thetrees, crackling around on the ground.
It is a particularly
(06:11):
unsettling sound, the grackle.
I think it's like a warning that atany moment there might be a GRE attack.
So what's your origin story?
How did you get started in documentary?
I. I always wanted to be a filmmakersince I was 12 or 13 years old, and
I made little movies with my friendsback home in my hometown, Plano, Texas.
(06:36):
I was really fortunate to createand play with a group of like super
creative guys that I played musicwith and made fun videos with and
you know, kind of grew up with.
And so I got into filmmaking prettyearly and then after college I
moved to New York and was, uh.
Apprentice assistant director throughthe Director's Guild working on
like big budget features and, and TVseries and, you know, and scripted.
And then I met my wife, uh, Sarah Wilson.
(06:59):
Okay.
Documentary photographer and nowcinematographer and producer.
But it was working well, assistingSarah and helping her with her work,
uh, doing documentary photographyprojects at the idea of focusing
on documentary became real for me.
Love that.
But through the impactof Sarah and her work.
I've gotten a chance to see what it is tomake movies by entering into an existing
(07:22):
community and not just expressing,you know, kind of an ego-driven story
that, that's born outta my mind,but by, uh, reflecting some kind of
reality that exists out in the world.
So, I don't know, I guess that's,does that answer your question?
Is that what we're talking about?
I think so.
Yeah.
Like why, why do you make documentaries
I do it 'cause I wanna say somethingand I wanna say something in a way
(07:45):
that brings people closer together.
I wanna, I wanna get a chance to seemy own life reflected up on screen, you
know, through the experience of someoneelse, a chance to kinda learn who I
am and I wanna share that with people.
I want other people to get a chance tosee who they are through these stories.
So that's kinda what draws mein is like the universality of
experience that exists even in themost unique and peculiar stories.
(08:07):
That's what I'm looking for.
I love it.
Um, can you hear the soundof these cottonwood trees?
How did you get started with all this?
Like, where did you, where did you begin?
Where does, where does your.
How did you get started with all this?
Well, my, my origin story is that I alwayswanted to be a writer and thought that
(08:31):
that's what I would do as a voraciousreader when I was a kid and I got into
what I like to call the gateway drugauthors in high school, like, uh, the
Charles Bukowskis and the, uh, the beats.
So Kerouac and Ginsburg and Burrows andall those guys whose thing was to go have.
These wild adventures and then writeabout them in this poetic way and
(08:54):
make the story of the adventure, thissort of story of human experience.
And so I did a version of thatwhen I graduated high school.
I didn't go straight to college.
I moved to Monterey, California.
I loved John Steinbeck.
I thought maybe I would be an author.
I wrote a lot of really terrible.
Short stories, uh, smoked alot of non-filtered cigarettes.
(09:15):
Then when it came time for meto go back to college, I went to
the University of Kansas and Ihad a creative writing professor
there, essentially get rid of me.
He, uh, he told me mywriting was very visual.
I. And that I should, uh,look into taking a film class.
And at the time I waslike, this guy gets me.
But now having taught undergrads,I realize that he was basically
(09:37):
saying, there's the door.
Get outta here.
And so the first class that I couldtake in, in the film department
was a documentary production class.
And all the things sort of clickedand that was how I started.
And I literally tookthe camera that my dad.
Used to shoot our family vacations with,and I got a piece of software that had
(09:57):
just come out called Final Cut Pro 1.0,and I just started making documentaries.
They started getting into filmfestivals and that was 2000, and
I've been at it basically ever since.
Whoa.
Watch.
And the world just happened
that just pop hard on you.
Whoa.
I could hear it.
(10:18):
What just happened?
It might be just me.
My electromagnetic field is strong.
This is the mic telling me to wrap
it up.
Okay.
Hello?
Hello.
How's that?
Is that working?
Better?
Check in.
Dam it.
Well check.
Check here.
Let's walk a little bitand then you can hear it.
Check, check, check.
1, 2, 1, 2. Check.
(10:39):
Chest checkers.
Check the skeleton slipped in the shower.
The human torch was denied a bank loan.
Hello?
Hello, hello, bike riders.
Hello children.
Here's a child bike rider.
Putting them all togethersounds great to me.
Really.
No, no hits, huh?
Okay.
How are you feeling so far in this podcast
(11:00):
so far?
What I like is the sounds of thetrail and describing those sounds.
Yep.
And, uh, how is that traffic noise?
Is it kind of the kind of traffic noisethat pulls you in closer and says.
I really want to hear what theseguys have to say right now.
Or is it the kind of trafficnoise it says we should edit out
this whole chunk of the trail.
(11:21):
It's probably the kind of traffic noisethat one of us will spend a lot of
time trying to filter out of the audio,
which is tough because this is, uh, bydesign, a podcast that's meant to embrace.
The environment of the sounds ofthe world, natural and otherwise,
much like documentary where you don'thave control of things like traffic.
(11:44):
And if you're out in the world,you're gonna hear some traffic.
I, I do love that rhythmthough, of like the,
of the car is coming above.
Here.
Let's listen to a little bit of that.
(12:06):
I think I was drawn to documentaryfilmmaking because it's a place that
invariably you have to kind of give upcontrol, and I think so much of my life
and my relationship to this world is kindof a negotiation with control, you know?
I'm not a verite filmmaker.
I'm not a fly on the wall kind of guy.
(12:26):
It's, there's a lot of constructiongoing on and a lot of kind of structural
decision making, but it's almost all inreaction to an initial authentic push
into a world, a community, a story that
dovetails kind of nicely with what we aretalking about with documentaries and those
(12:49):
sort of happy accidents and coincidences.
Our part of the thing that Ilove about docs and it's sort of
taught me to follow those things.
Like whenever I encounter those, Iknow that sort of onto something.
And if I trust that the imperfectionor the hurdle or the chance
encounter is actually gonna makewhatever I'm doing better, I would.
(13:12):
I almost every time that's whathappens, sort of life intervenes
to sort of tell you what the storywants to be rather than the story you
think you're telling.
Yeah, I think that's always the case.
You know, I don't think I've ever madea film that I've never made a film where
I knew the third act, and I don't thinkI've ever made a film where at some
point afterwards, I didn't say, I thoughtwe were making a film about this, but
(13:33):
it turned out to be a film about that.
Oh my goodness.
I'm having fun, Keith.
I have to say I like this.
I'm glad you like it.
Let's talk about ourfrailties and vulnerabilities.
Oh, please.
Okay.
Uh, you start, how, how,how frail are you feeling?
Always happy talkingabout my vulnerabilities.
I, I, I, I feel like I say the wordI a lot and a lot of times that I'm
(13:57):
talking about my approach to filmmakingand I say I, what I really mean is
we, uh, because there is, um, almostnever a moment where I am working
in a vacuum or working without theassistance input and always like.
Additive nature of my primary editor and,and close collaborator, Austin Reedy, uh,
(14:24):
bevy of wonderful producers like MeganGilbride, Melissa Glassman, Veronica
Maciel, and, and interns, which I, wealways have interns that we rely on.
Um, and so anyway, that isa vulnerability I'll admit.
Like I, I, I feel like as a director,producer, director, director, producer.
I often get far morecredit than work deserves.
(14:46):
I like to think that I get more blameas well, but that's not always the case.
And so anyway, that's the vulnerability.
When I hear myself talking to you,walking down this trail, taking note of.
All the good variety of birds.
There's a little voice in the back of myhead saying, stop talking about yourself.
Part of the reason we do what we do, Ithink, is the ability to de the world and
present the world from behind the camera.
(15:09):
You know, rarely using our ownvoices, although, you know, with full
acknowledgement that like the work thatwe present as a manipulation of reality,
that very much represents kind of thecollective voice of our team as much
as the people we point the cameras at.
Anyway, that's the vulnerability Iwanted to acknowledge and now I want
you to make me feel better about it.
I love that, and I fully agree.
Filmmaking is a team sport 100%.
(15:32):
I similarly could rattle off lots ofother producers and collaborators and
um, that's part of actually what I loveabout every single project that I do,
is that it's sort of like building likea family structure with each project.
And I really admire about you.
That you have consistentcollaborators that you go back
to again and again and again.
(15:53):
And I have that as well, but Ialso like to kind of switch it up
depending on what the project needs.
And I think that is a big part ofthe commercial filmmaking, informing
my doc filmmaking, because that isa, the like a thing that happens all
the time in commercial filmmaking.
So you, you end up working with a lotbroader cross section of crew and a
(16:14):
lot of times sometimes like the TV.
Uh, crew that I use would not beappropriate for a commercial shoot.
Right.
You know, and vice versa.
Yeah, no, you've had, you'vedefinitely been exposed to a lot
more craftspeople and collaboratorsthan I have, you know, uh, kind of
self-selected both by nature of, uh.
Like my network of trusted associatesand also my inability to pay very well,
(16:39):
um, you know, a certain group of people,but I, you know, I'm reminded of the,
the premier of the first feature docI ever made is called The Eyes of Me.
It premiered at South by in 2009.
And my, uh, producing partner on thatwas my very old friend and frequent
creative collaborator, Patrick Floyd.
And as we went up on stageto, for the q and a and as the
(16:59):
credits kind of continued to roll.
He said, this right here is my favoritepart of the movie, and it's the, the a
hundred plus names of people that rollby that it took to get to this moment.
And we should all take amoment to acknowledge them.
I, I love that and I think it isvery important to acknowledge all of
the people that helped us get here.
For sure.
We were talking aboutsynchronicity and my wife Katie.
(17:23):
Got an email from a friend askingher to produce her podcast.
Katie said she's very busy.
Her husband is actually startinga little bit a podcast, and if
she were gonna produce anybody's,it should really be his.
But she can't even do that becausewe have two young children.
She works full time.
So Katie says, let me think aboutsome other producer friends I know.
(17:44):
Send me anything you have on it.
A couple days go by last night.
I am getting ready for thispodcast when this woman sends her.
A description of her podcast in whichshe is planning to take walks and talk to
people while she's walking and talking.
What are the odds of that happening?
(18:06):
Completely unrelated.
Had no idea.
Very different topic, but what arethe odds that not in the same month,
not in the same week, literally three.
The night before, night before ourinaugural Walk and Talk podcast, a woman
reaches out to my wife to ask her tohelp produce a Walk and Talk podcast.
(18:32):
That's one of those things where youthink like, sure, it's in the ether.
Not claiming that we're brilliantenough to have some idea that
nobody else has thought of before.
But the timing of thatis what's remarkable.
It's with great auspice.
Yeah.
And so what, uh, when you come acrossa synchronistic moment like that,
(18:54):
what does it mean to you or what doyou gain from that acknowledgement?
Well, in that particular moment,what I gained was, oh, we're onto
something Like, that's interesting.
If somebody else is thinking about doingit and it's out there, this is just like
the idea is percolating out in the world.
Then us picking up on it and playingwith it is what needs to happen.
(19:17):
And I in Rick Rubin's book on creativity,which I love, he talks about how
the artist's job is to be an antennaand to pick up signals in the world
for things that want to be made.
So whether they're stories orsongs or podcasts or paintings or
whatever, they are looking for a home.
(19:41):
And your job as the artist is torecognize them and give them that home.
The Rock and Roll photographer, ScottNewton, who's a, a guy that I've had the
pleasure of pointing a camera at quitea bit and also become friends with,
always talks about the relationshipof the muse and how creativity is a
process that exists outside of ourselves.
(20:03):
And that if we are tuned acutelyto it, it can transmit through us.
And, uh, you know, the, the ideaof the muse actually being the
source of the word music, right?
It's.
Of the muse.
It's, it's an expression thatcomes from without and passes
within only to go out again.
I never knew that that was theroot of music, was the muse.
(20:27):
That is fascinating.
I am not positive about that, but that iswhat Scott says and I think he's right.
He must be
alright.
Well see.
We're making progress, Keith.
It's all coming together.
I think it's such a privilege to be ableto do this work, but most of the time I.
I feel like I, and just about every oneof the people like you and that I consider
(20:51):
like my colleagues and are also justlike suffering through a major sense of
like a circle of confusion at all times.
Ooh, that's a great title.
Circle of
confusion.
And so I think like, uh, it is,this is a world of confusion that
we operate in, but you also haveto take into to, to account that.
(21:14):
So many things had to, to go rightto get to this moment of confusion.
And you know, so many people start outwanting to do a version of what we have.
You know, stubbornlyrefused not to do that.
It's, it's a privilege.
I absolutely agree.
And when I have taught studentsin the past, that's one of the
(21:34):
things that I always sort offumble my way into saying is that.
You know, if you're a dentist, you go todental school, there's a very clear path.
You graduate from dental school,you get hired by a dental practice.
Maybe you start your own and you getpatients and you clean their teeth,
and that's your job with filmmaking.
It doesn't matter who you talk to.
(21:55):
Everybody's path is unique and different,and no two people have the same success
or failure or origin stories and what.
Ends up being the case is that a lotof times people decide to stop doing
it and it becomes too insecure as alifestyle to go on making projects
(22:17):
that are essentially on spec that youhope people will like, or that you can
get people to give you money to make.
And what I have always beenattracted to about filmmaking,
both the filmmakers I love and whatI've tried to do with my career is
think about it as a body of work.
I. Is that it's not just the one thingyou're doing right now, it's, I want
(22:39):
to look back when I'm an old man andbe proud of what is on my archival
hard drives, and hope that my kids orsome younger filmmakers or somebody
get some inspiration and some sparkout of it, and that that's sort of like
a, an imprint of a life well lived andan interesting, adventurous spirit.
(23:03):
And if I think about it that way, andnot the funding for the next project
or where the last movie premiered,or did my last TV show get picked up
or whatever it is, who lied to yourface and stabbed you in the back?
Oh, I can tell you exactly who that is.
Their names yes, yes.
Uh, but that's really the thing.
Like you said, it's a privilege.
(23:24):
It's amazing that we just getto come down here and look.
We're.
We landed.
Where we're standing right nowis on the other side of the fence
from the iconic Barton Springs.
Uh, naturally fed theswimming hole here in Austin.
Let's go get some, some niceaudio of the runoff of the water.
(23:44):
Okay,
here we go.
We're getting some audio of thewater falling from Barton Springs.
On the one side into barkingsprings on the other.
So as we were recording the waterfalling here on that side, I looked
(24:07):
down and noticed that an XLR cablehad come unplugged, and that we have,
uh, we may have just gone through thatwhole scene there, uh, with one of
our mics not plugged into the recorder
professionals.
We were too busy being profoundto, uh, think about the
(24:30):
actually recording the audio,
audio problems with Ben and Keith.
Here's why 99% of podcaststake place sitting down.
Ooh, whoa.
Look at
that thing.
Oh wow.
(24:50):
That is a beautiful brown.
Slender bird with a sharp beak.
We kind of blew
what Bird is.
I don't know.
See, I feel like if we continue todo this, we are going to learn a lot
about the birds of Austin and whereverelse this, uh, journey takes us.
Um, and eventually we'lljust be doing a birdwatching.
(25:13):
Uh, podcast, which will probablyhave a much bigger audience.
I think it's fair to say there's probablymore bird watchers than there are.
Oh, and there it goes.
Hey, did you hear those two divshits talking about independent film?
No.
I'm too busy listening to twodiv shits talking about birds.
That's actually a hellof a name for a podcast.
Two dip shits talking about birds.
(25:34):
Next time on Dock Walkswe're gonna Sundance.
Yes we are.
And I have fought going untilI had a movie in the festival,
but Keith convinced me to
go.
Anyways,
we're gonna have a great time.
I feel pretty good about it.
We're gonna catch upwith some old friends.
Hopefully see a few movies, talk to peopleon Main Street and, uh, and, and take our,
(25:55):
take our doc walking, uh, out on the road
to
New
Heights.
That's it.
See you next time.
Everybody.
Doc Walks is created, produced, and editedby my friend Ben Stein Bauer of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend KeithMaitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
Recording.
(00:02):
All right, we are rolling.
Sound speeds.
Sound as we say in the biz.
Sound speeds.
And I don't know how defactoI became the sound guy.
You volunteered.
I did.
But you brought the mics.
I just kind of startedputting everything on.
(00:23):
That's
good.
Just uh, shows good initiative.
It's like go, go get a attitudethat you need in early development.
I do.
I am enthusiastic.
My skill level is questionable,but my enthusiasm is high.
All right.
What do you think?
We ready?
I think so.
Should we do this?
Let's do it.
And we are off.
On the inaugural episode of Wary
(00:46):
Well, that may be the placeto start is what's in a name.
Does
that
mean that you are
not feeling
wary?
I think Wary is a great name for adocumentary podcast about walking,
but for a walk about documentaries.
A don't feel like it's a a great name.
(01:08):
You're listening to Doc Walks.
With Ben and Keith.
Well, I'm Ben Steinhowerand you are Keith Maitland.
And what are we doing, Keith?
Well, I'm not sure what you're doing,but I'm feeling a little silly walking
down the street in Austin, Texas, talkingto my friend who I go on biweekly walks
(01:29):
with without the benefit of a recorder.
Um, where we walk andtalk and walk and dock.
We dock walk, we, we dock, walk.
Whoa.
Crossing the street about to get hit.
Here we go.
Okay, so we're walkingand talking and talking.
Documentary dock walkinghere in Austin, Texas.
(01:53):
We're
walking past a baseball field nearBarton Springs Road on the way to the
hike and bike trail next to the lake.
What are we doing here, Ben?
I told you from the beginning, Ijust love our walks and our talks.
And I thought that it would be fun totry to record 'em, pull some guests in,
and as working documentary filmmakers,see if we can't make something of
(02:17):
value for other people to listen to.
I think that there couldbe some value to that.
Yes, taking a look at like the creativeapproaches to documentary filmmaking,
that's my favorite thing to talk about,but also looking at the industrial
side of how do you make a career?
Out of this art form, how do youreact to the state of the world,
(02:37):
politically and socially throughthe work of figuring out how to keep
the lights on and pay your mortgageif you're lucky enough to have one?
And so that's what I kind ofhope we get into on these.
And as we reach out to guests andhave people join us on these walks,
I'll be looking for new perspectivesand, and expansions on those themes.
How about you?
Yes.
I think, uh, anytime I talk toanother director about their career,
(03:01):
I feel like I always learn a lot.
I remember when I was getting startedgoing to panels at South by Southwest
or Hot Dogs or something like that andwatching these kind of like, I. Name
brand filmmakers sit up on the panel.
You know, people like, like Gordon Quinnor Errol Morris or Paul Steckler or
somebody like that who would say, oh,it just keeps getting harder and harder.
I could never make the filmsI made early in my career.
(03:23):
Now it's just so impossible.
And I remember as like ayoung, emerging filmmaker.
Being really annoyed by those fuckers.
Like, shut up.
You're up there on the panel.
You just made a, another great filmand a series of films, and we're out
here just trying to figure out howto catch a little bit of that edge.
And so listening to themcomplain about how hard it's
gotten never really spoke to me.
(03:43):
So I don't wanna becomeone of those old guys.
I do see what they're sayingnow, but at the same time.
I think you have to be kind of ahopeless optimist to do this work.
And even though like most of ourcontemporaries and the people
that we followed are not shy aboutgrumbling, about the realities and
the confusions and the challengesof this work and this industry, if
(04:03):
you're not waking up every morning.
Thinking, today's the dayI'm gonna figure it out.
Today's the day I'm gonna crack the code.
I don't know what else gets you through.
So are you waking up every morningthinking this is today's the day?
Uh, not consciously.
I don't know if today's, today'sthe day that I'm gonna figure
out the industry or figure outmy career, but today's definitely
the day to play with a new idea.
(04:24):
That's, that's every day for sure.
Love that.
I love that.
And that's part of what thispodcast is for me, is talking about.
Our careers as documentaryfilmmakers and the highs, the
lows, gutter balls, the strikes,
the constant state of confusion isthe way I like to look at my career.
Uh, which I love to hear, of course.
(04:46):
Uh, but every time we go for awalk, you tell me some amazing
story about a meeting that you'vehad or a project that is getting
funded by a very impressive company.
And, uh, I love the movies that youmake and I love our friendship and I
love talking documentaries with you.
So when the idea.
It came about.
(05:07):
Uh, I think we both werelike, why would we do that?
Yeah.
Why,
why would we ruin a good thing?
And yet here we are.
It's almost like we can't help ourselves.
Well.
I think you have an infectious,uh, enthusiasm and I had
a hard time saying no.
Even though I question and doubt it, andI doubt that will go away anytime soon.
(05:29):
Well, don't you feel that way whenyou're making your documentaries?
Yes.
That is the only way I know how to feel.
Well then I, I think by thatlogic, we're onto something.
What you might be hearingis the sound of grackles.
(05:49):
Now, I don't know a lot about Grackles,but I don't know of any other town
that has the sheer amount of gracklesthat Austin has at this time of year.
And what would you saya grackle sounds like?
I mean, they g crack at you.
That's what's the name?
They're racking it up, up there in thetrees, crackling around on the ground.
It is a particularly
(06:11):
unsettling sound, the grackle.
I think it's like a warning that atany moment there might be a GRE attack.
So what's your origin story?
How did you get started in documentary?
I. I always wanted to be a filmmakersince I was 12 or 13 years old, and
I made little movies with my friendsback home in my hometown, Plano, Texas.
(06:36):
I was really fortunate to createand play with a group of like super
creative guys that I played musicwith and made fun videos with and
you know, kind of grew up with.
And so I got into filmmaking prettyearly and then after college I
moved to New York and was, uh.
Apprentice assistant director throughthe Director's Guild working on
like big budget features and, and TVseries and, you know, and scripted.
And then I met my wife, uh, Sarah Wilson.
(06:59):
Okay.
Documentary photographer and nowcinematographer and producer.
But it was working well, assistingSarah and helping her with her work,
uh, doing documentary photographyprojects at the idea of focusing
on documentary became real for me.
Love that.
But through the impactof Sarah and her work.
I've gotten a chance to see what it is tomake movies by entering into an existing
(07:22):
community and not just expressing,you know, kind of an ego-driven story
that, that's born outta my mind,but by, uh, reflecting some kind of
reality that exists out in the world.
So, I don't know, I guess that's,does that answer your question?
Is that what we're talking about?
I think so.
Yeah.
Like why, why do you make documentaries
I do it 'cause I wanna say somethingand I wanna say something in a way
(07:45):
that brings people closer together.
I wanna, I wanna get a chance to seemy own life reflected up on screen, you
know, through the experience of someoneelse, a chance to kinda learn who I
am and I wanna share that with people.
I want other people to get a chance tosee who they are through these stories.
So that's kinda what draws mein is like the universality of
experience that exists even in themost unique and peculiar stories.
(08:07):
That's what I'm looking for.
I love it.
Um, can you hear the soundof these cottonwood trees?
How did you get started with all this?
Like, where did you, where did you begin?
Where does, where does your.
How did you get started with all this?
Well, my, my origin story is that I alwayswanted to be a writer and thought that
(08:31):
that's what I would do as a voraciousreader when I was a kid and I got into
what I like to call the gateway drugauthors in high school, like, uh, the
Charles Bukowskis and the, uh, the beats.
So Kerouac and Ginsburg and Burrows andall those guys whose thing was to go have.
These wild adventures and then writeabout them in this poetic way and
(08:54):
make the story of the adventure, thissort of story of human experience.
And so I did a version of thatwhen I graduated high school.
I didn't go straight to college.
I moved to Monterey, California.
I loved John Steinbeck.
I thought maybe I would be an author.
I wrote a lot of really terrible.
Short stories, uh, smoked alot of non-filtered cigarettes.
(09:15):
Then when it came time for meto go back to college, I went to
the University of Kansas and Ihad a creative writing professor
there, essentially get rid of me.
He, uh, he told me mywriting was very visual.
I. And that I should, uh,look into taking a film class.
And at the time I waslike, this guy gets me.
But now having taught undergrads,I realize that he was basically
(09:37):
saying, there's the door.
Get outta here.
And so the first class that I couldtake in, in the film department
was a documentary production class.
And all the things sort of clickedand that was how I started.
And I literally tookthe camera that my dad.
Used to shoot our family vacations with,and I got a piece of software that had
(09:57):
just come out called Final Cut Pro 1.0,and I just started making documentaries.
They started getting into filmfestivals and that was 2000, and
I've been at it basically ever since.
Whoa.
Watch.
And the world just happened
that just pop hard on you.
Whoa.
I could hear it.
(10:18):
What just happened?
It might be just me.
My electromagnetic field is strong.
This is the mic telling me to wrap
it up.
Okay.
Hello?
Hello.
How's that?
Is that working?
Better?
Check in.
Dam it.
Well check.
Check here.
Let's walk a little bitand then you can hear it.
Check, check, check.
1, 2, 1, 2. Check.
(10:39):
Chest checkers.
Check the skeleton slipped in the shower.
The human torch was denied a bank loan.
Hello?
Hello, hello, bike riders.
Hello children.
Here's a child bike rider.
Putting them all togethersounds great to me.
Really.
No, no hits, huh?
Okay.
How are you feeling so far in this podcast
(11:00):
so far?
What I like is the sounds of thetrail and describing those sounds.
Yep.
And, uh, how is that traffic noise?
Is it kind of the kind of traffic noisethat pulls you in closer and says.
I really want to hear what theseguys have to say right now.
Or is it the kind of trafficnoise it says we should edit out
this whole chunk of the trail.
(11:21):
It's probably the kind of traffic noisethat one of us will spend a lot of
time trying to filter out of the audio,
which is tough because this is, uh, bydesign, a podcast that's meant to embrace.
The environment of the sounds ofthe world, natural and otherwise,
much like documentary where you don'thave control of things like traffic.
(11:44):
And if you're out in the world,you're gonna hear some traffic.
I, I do love that rhythmthough, of like the,
of the car is coming above.
Here.
Let's listen to a little bit of that.
(12:06):
I think I was drawn to documentaryfilmmaking because it's a place that
invariably you have to kind of give upcontrol, and I think so much of my life
and my relationship to this world is kindof a negotiation with control, you know?
I'm not a verite filmmaker.
I'm not a fly on the wall kind of guy.
(12:26):
It's, there's a lot of constructiongoing on and a lot of kind of structural
decision making, but it's almost all inreaction to an initial authentic push
into a world, a community, a story that
dovetails kind of nicely with what we aretalking about with documentaries and those
(12:49):
sort of happy accidents and coincidences.
Our part of the thing that Ilove about docs and it's sort of
taught me to follow those things.
Like whenever I encounter those, Iknow that sort of onto something.
And if I trust that the imperfectionor the hurdle or the chance
encounter is actually gonna makewhatever I'm doing better, I would.
(13:12):
I almost every time that's whathappens, sort of life intervenes
to sort of tell you what the storywants to be rather than the story you
think you're telling.
Yeah, I think that's always the case.
You know, I don't think I've ever madea film that I've never made a film where
I knew the third act, and I don't thinkI've ever made a film where at some
point afterwards, I didn't say, I thoughtwe were making a film about this, but
(13:33):
it turned out to be a film about that.
Oh my goodness.
I'm having fun, Keith.
I have to say I like this.
I'm glad you like it.
Let's talk about ourfrailties and vulnerabilities.
Oh, please.
Okay.
Uh, you start, how, how,how frail are you feeling?
Always happy talkingabout my vulnerabilities.
I, I, I, I feel like I say the wordI a lot and a lot of times that I'm
(13:57):
talking about my approach to filmmakingand I say I, what I really mean is
we, uh, because there is, um, almostnever a moment where I am working
in a vacuum or working without theassistance input and always like.
Additive nature of my primary editor and,and close collaborator, Austin Reedy, uh,
(14:24):
bevy of wonderful producers like MeganGilbride, Melissa Glassman, Veronica
Maciel, and, and interns, which I, wealways have interns that we rely on.
Um, and so anyway, that isa vulnerability I'll admit.
Like I, I, I feel like as a director,producer, director, director, producer.
I often get far morecredit than work deserves.
(14:46):
I like to think that I get more blameas well, but that's not always the case.
And so anyway, that's the vulnerability.
When I hear myself talking to you,walking down this trail, taking note of.
All the good variety of birds.
There's a little voice in the back of myhead saying, stop talking about yourself.
Part of the reason we do what we do, Ithink, is the ability to de the world and
present the world from behind the camera.
(15:09):
You know, rarely using our ownvoices, although, you know, with full
acknowledgement that like the work thatwe present as a manipulation of reality,
that very much represents kind of thecollective voice of our team as much
as the people we point the cameras at.
Anyway, that's the vulnerability Iwanted to acknowledge and now I want
you to make me feel better about it.
I love that, and I fully agree.
Filmmaking is a team sport 100%.
(15:32):
I similarly could rattle off lots ofother producers and collaborators and
um, that's part of actually what I loveabout every single project that I do,
is that it's sort of like building likea family structure with each project.
And I really admire about you.
That you have consistentcollaborators that you go back
to again and again and again.
(15:53):
And I have that as well, but Ialso like to kind of switch it up
depending on what the project needs.
And I think that is a big part ofthe commercial filmmaking, informing
my doc filmmaking, because that isa, the like a thing that happens all
the time in commercial filmmaking.
So you, you end up working with a lotbroader cross section of crew and a
(16:14):
lot of times sometimes like the TV.
Uh, crew that I use would not beappropriate for a commercial shoot.
Right.
You know, and vice versa.
Yeah, no, you've had, you'vedefinitely been exposed to a lot
more craftspeople and collaboratorsthan I have, you know, uh, kind of
self-selected both by nature of, uh.
Like my network of trusted associatesand also my inability to pay very well,
(16:39):
um, you know, a certain group of people,but I, you know, I'm reminded of the,
the premier of the first feature docI ever made is called The Eyes of Me.
It premiered at South by in 2009.
And my, uh, producing partner on thatwas my very old friend and frequent
creative collaborator, Patrick Floyd.
And as we went up on stageto, for the q and a and as the
(16:59):
credits kind of continued to roll.
He said, this right here is my favoritepart of the movie, and it's the, the a
hundred plus names of people that rollby that it took to get to this moment.
And we should all take amoment to acknowledge them.
I, I love that and I think it isvery important to acknowledge all of
the people that helped us get here.
For sure.
We were talking aboutsynchronicity and my wife Katie.
(17:23):
Got an email from a friend askingher to produce her podcast.
Katie said she's very busy.
Her husband is actually startinga little bit a podcast, and if
she were gonna produce anybody's,it should really be his.
But she can't even do that becausewe have two young children.
She works full time.
So Katie says, let me think aboutsome other producer friends I know.
(17:44):
Send me anything you have on it.
A couple days go by last night.
I am getting ready for thispodcast when this woman sends her.
A description of her podcast in whichshe is planning to take walks and talk to
people while she's walking and talking.
What are the odds of that happening?
(18:06):
Completely unrelated.
Had no idea.
Very different topic, but what arethe odds that not in the same month,
not in the same week, literally three.
The night before, night before ourinaugural Walk and Talk podcast, a woman
reaches out to my wife to ask her tohelp produce a Walk and Talk podcast.
(18:32):
That's one of those things where youthink like, sure, it's in the ether.
Not claiming that we're brilliantenough to have some idea that
nobody else has thought of before.
But the timing of thatis what's remarkable.
It's with great auspice.
Yeah.
And so what, uh, when you come acrossa synchronistic moment like that,
(18:54):
what does it mean to you or what doyou gain from that acknowledgement?
Well, in that particular moment,what I gained was, oh, we're onto
something Like, that's interesting.
If somebody else is thinking about doingit and it's out there, this is just like
the idea is percolating out in the world.
Then us picking up on it and playingwith it is what needs to happen.
(19:17):
And I in Rick Rubin's book on creativity,which I love, he talks about how
the artist's job is to be an antennaand to pick up signals in the world
for things that want to be made.
So whether they're stories orsongs or podcasts or paintings or
whatever, they are looking for a home.
(19:41):
And your job as the artist is torecognize them and give them that home.
The Rock and Roll photographer, ScottNewton, who's a, a guy that I've had the
pleasure of pointing a camera at quitea bit and also become friends with,
always talks about the relationshipof the muse and how creativity is a
process that exists outside of ourselves.
(20:03):
And that if we are tuned acutelyto it, it can transmit through us.
And, uh, you know, the, the ideaof the muse actually being the
source of the word music, right?
It's.
Of the muse.
It's, it's an expression thatcomes from without and passes
within only to go out again.
I never knew that that was theroot of music, was the muse.
(20:27):
That is fascinating.
I am not positive about that, but that iswhat Scott says and I think he's right.
He must be
alright.
Well see.
We're making progress, Keith.
It's all coming together.
I think it's such a privilege to be ableto do this work, but most of the time I.
I feel like I, and just about every oneof the people like you and that I consider
(20:51):
like my colleagues and are also justlike suffering through a major sense of
like a circle of confusion at all times.
Ooh, that's a great title.
Circle of
confusion.
And so I think like, uh, it is,this is a world of confusion that
we operate in, but you also haveto take into to, to account that.
(21:14):
So many things had to, to go rightto get to this moment of confusion.
And you know, so many people start outwanting to do a version of what we have.
You know, stubbornlyrefused not to do that.
It's, it's a privilege.
I absolutely agree.
And when I have taught studentsin the past, that's one of the
(21:34):
things that I always sort offumble my way into saying is that.
You know, if you're a dentist, you go todental school, there's a very clear path.
You graduate from dental school,you get hired by a dental practice.
Maybe you start your own and you getpatients and you clean their teeth,
and that's your job with filmmaking.
It doesn't matter who you talk to.
(21:55):
Everybody's path is unique and different,and no two people have the same success
or failure or origin stories and what.
Ends up being the case is that a lotof times people decide to stop doing
it and it becomes too insecure as alifestyle to go on making projects
(22:17):
that are essentially on spec that youhope people will like, or that you can
get people to give you money to make.
And what I have always beenattracted to about filmmaking,
both the filmmakers I love and whatI've tried to do with my career is
think about it as a body of work.
I. Is that it's not just the one thingyou're doing right now, it's, I want
(22:39):
to look back when I'm an old man andbe proud of what is on my archival
hard drives, and hope that my kids orsome younger filmmakers or somebody
get some inspiration and some sparkout of it, and that that's sort of like
a, an imprint of a life well lived andan interesting, adventurous spirit.
(23:03):
And if I think about it that way, andnot the funding for the next project
or where the last movie premiered,or did my last TV show get picked up
or whatever it is, who lied to yourface and stabbed you in the back?
Oh, I can tell you exactly who that is.
Their names yes, yes.
Uh, but that's really the thing.
Like you said, it's a privilege.
(23:24):
It's amazing that we just getto come down here and look.
We're.
We landed.
Where we're standing right nowis on the other side of the fence
from the iconic Barton Springs.
Uh, naturally fed theswimming hole here in Austin.
Let's go get some, some niceaudio of the runoff of the water.
(23:44):
Okay,
here we go.
We're getting some audio of thewater falling from Barton Springs.
On the one side into barkingsprings on the other.
So as we were recording the waterfalling here on that side, I looked
(24:07):
down and noticed that an XLR cablehad come unplugged, and that we have,
uh, we may have just gone through thatwhole scene there, uh, with one of
our mics not plugged into the recorder
professionals.
We were too busy being profoundto, uh, think about the
(24:30):
actually recording the audio,
audio problems with Ben and Keith.
Here's why 99% of podcaststake place sitting down.
Ooh, whoa.
Look at
that thing.
Oh wow.
(24:50):
That is a beautiful brown.
Slender bird with a sharp beak.
We kind of blew
what Bird is.
I don't know.
See, I feel like if we continue todo this, we are going to learn a lot
about the birds of Austin and whereverelse this, uh, journey takes us.
Um, and eventually we'lljust be doing a birdwatching.
(25:13):
Uh, podcast, which will probablyhave a much bigger audience.
I think it's fair to say there's probablymore bird watchers than there are.
Oh, and there it goes.
Hey, did you hear those two divshits talking about independent film?
No.
I'm too busy listening to twodiv shits talking about birds.
That's actually a hellof a name for a podcast.
Two dip shits talking about birds.
(25:34):
Next time on Dock Walkswe're gonna Sundance.
Yes we are.
And I have fought going untilI had a movie in the festival,
but Keith convinced me to
go.
Anyways,
we're gonna have a great time.
I feel pretty good about it.
We're gonna catch upwith some old friends.
Hopefully see a few movies, talk to peopleon Main Street and, uh, and, and take our,
(25:55):
take our doc walking, uh, out on the road
to
New
Heights.
That's it.
See you next time.
Everybody.
Doc Walks is created, produced, and editedby my friend Ben Stein Bauer of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend KeithMaitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
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