May 8, 2025 • 37 mins
It’s Ben’s first time in Park City, and despite the freezing temps, he and Keith take to Main Street to kickoff the indie film calendar-year, exploring the 2025 Sundance Film Festival. Man-on-the-street interviews capture the vibrant atmosphere as Ben & Keith seek intel and advice from filmmakers, volunteers, and festival-goers alike. Listen for candid encounters with Frank Mosley, Russell Wayne Groves, Su Kim and more — including a sneeze and you might miss it cameo from Conan O’Brien, who warns us all — ”Look out for the ice!”
00:00 Starting the Day: Leaving the Condo
00:08 Walking Directions and Weather Update
00:59 Discussing the Film Festival Experience
02:45 Exploring Main Street and Festival Atmosphere
04:28 Bird Watching and Film Festival Analogies
05:48 The Role of Sales Agents in Film Distribution
08:54 Navigating the Festival: Tips and Insights
09:23 Tunnel Walk and Festival Reflections
11:05 Interviews with Filmmakers and Attendees
20:01 Worlds Colliding at Sundance
20:25 The Impact of Social Media on Documentary Filmmaking
21:40 Excitement for the Future of Social Media
22:24 Meeting Industry Professionals at Sundance
23:00 Challenges in Indie Film Distribution and Financing
23:41 First Impressions of Sundance
24:27 The Importance of Optimism in Filmmaking
30:44 A Conversation with Su Kim
36:28 Wrapping Up Day One at Sundance
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Oh, almost forgot my glasses.
We're gonna get outtathis condo one day, Keith.
All right.
What do you think?
Keith?
You ready?
Yep.
I'm just plugging in thethe walking directions.
Closing the condo door.
And we're off.
And here we go.
Head west on
Deer Valley.
Drive toward Deer Valley Loop Road.
(00:20):
Alright, thank you, robot.
All right.
According to my phone, it is 31 degrees.
Here in Park City, today'shigh is 31 degrees, so this
is as warm as it is gonna get.
The low is 15 degrees,which is not so bad.
'cause when we got here last night,I think the low was eight degrees.
(00:40):
It was very, very cold Last night, walkingback from the party, I was struggling.
This is almost like a balmy 31.
I feel pretty good
on your left.
You're listening to DocWalk with Ben and Keith.
Well, is this where we should talkabout how you talked me into coming
(01:02):
here and I said I didn't want to?
I am.
I'm actually fairly uncomfortablebeing in a film festival
where I am not showing work.
I feel like I'm crashinga party in some way.
And so being here to record our podcastmakes me feel a little more like I belong.
But I would say in general, I feela little bit like an outsider here.
(01:23):
Yeah, I could appreciate that.
Um, I do feel like I twisted your arma little bit and maybe even tricked
you a little bit just so I wouldn'thave to wander these streets by myself,
but Okay, Keith, so what are we doing?
We are walking down Deer Valley.
Drive into the heart.
Of Park City and why are we here?
Why are we here?
I always look at Sundance as kindof like the kickoff of the new year.
(01:46):
It's like the calendar year begins herelate January in Park City, and what
happens here over the course of thenext five or six days in a way, can
kind of set the tone for how this year.
Just may go
right.
And we are here at a pivotal time.
(02:07):
Uh, we just had an election.
There is the threat of AI looming.
There is declining viewership withsocial media competing for eyeballs.
So it does feel like we're ina particularly transitional
state at the moment.
We're here to take a lookaround, talk to some people.
We score a few free drinks at someparties, and, uh, kind of fill up our cup.
(02:31):
Start the new year witha little fresh inspira
and really anybody who is here tomake a living making documentaries
or indie films is here.
Looking for funding, looking forcollaborators, present, company included.
Here we are walking up to MainStreet where this all happens.
It's the main artery.
(02:53):
Of the festival and everybody iswalking around looking each other up
and down, looking to see who's here.
See, it looks like there's a lot of peoplegathering outside the Shutterstock chalet.
There's the Adobe House home of AdobePremiere and maybe some free hot cocoa.
Ooh, I could go for some free high cocoa.
'cause
the Disney Store,
(03:13):
you know, all the indie shit, all theindependent artists represented me.
I like how every once in a whilewe see a guy like this here who is,
um, clearly only here to be skiing,
click clacking and skiboots up Main Street.
We are passing a along line hereof people waiting to see a film.
Hi.
What movie are you waiting to see?
(03:34):
It's not a movie.
It's uh, um, it's a panel, Latino panelfor, for, uh, emerging filmmakers.
Oh, cool.
Do who's on the panel?
Do you know?
Yui Guzman.
Oh,
cool.
Very
cool.
And there's gonna be speakers likeChristina Castine, Ian Rodriguez, Del
Joanna Fernandez, you, Sophia Camargo.
And then at three, it's uh, fromthe dream to screen the Indie
(03:56):
Filmmakers Roadmap to Success.
Have you been to Sundance before?
My first name
really?
What's your name?
Adrian.
Adrian.
Nice to meet you.
I'm Ben.
Oh, nice to meet you.
Yeah, this is my first timetoo, so I'm excited to be here.
Yeah.
Oh look, here's a cheer lift for thepeople who are here to ski, which
is what this town is actually about.
Yeah, I think
there's a gondola that we can takeup to the top for free, which would
(04:16):
be a fun, um, fun way to see thetown and maybe, um, take the dock
walking more vertical to new heights.
Ooh, look at you.
Should we cross here?
Okay.
I just wanna take noteof this bird up here.
It is a black and white bird witha very long tail that my family and
I have seen on trips to Colorado.
(04:39):
And we refer to thatbird as a tuxedo pigeon.
A tuxedo pigeon.
And then here's a sign thatsays birds of Park City.
Oh, we're in a bird watchingzone, I'm pretty sure.
And there's
a tuxedo pigeon right there,which I've come to find out
is actually called a magpie.
Ooh, I think I like tuxedopigeon better, right?
Well, we'll keep our eye out for moreof those, including Mountain Bluebird.
(05:02):
Mountain Bluebird.
That's a good looking bird.
Good looking mountain.
Bluebird.
Let's keep our eye out for thered wing blackbird, the black ca
chickadee and the house sparrow
in the house bar.
Okay.
I'm, I'm keeping my eyes peeled.
I like how this is, you're, you'retrying your hardest to make this
a podcast about bird watching.
I don't have to try the birds come to me.
(05:23):
Um, okay.
So.
Sundance is important becauseof selling your film and people
come here, uh, as filmmakers.
They apply and hope to get inbecause this is the premier.
Festival in the United States wheredistributors come to watch films.
Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it.
It's not that simple.
Obviously you have to havesales agents, uh, PR folks.
(05:47):
What else do you need to do?
Well, selling a film is a lot likeselling a house, and so as filmmakers.
We kinda operate as architects andcontractors, but there's one significant
piece of the puzzle missing incomparing a film to a house, especially
a spec film, which is when you builda house, you start out by buying a
piece of dirt and then you build up.
(06:07):
But when you make afilm, you're on the hunt.
For is the plot of land thatthis film is gonna call home.
And for the purposes of this drawn outanalogy, that plot of land is something
along the lines of a Netflix or an HBOor an international theatrical rollout.
It's about distribution.
And so we need a realtor, or in filmfestival terms, you need a sales agent.
(06:31):
This is a solid analogy, by the way.
I like this, this house analogy.
The thing about it isit's all in the framing.
Hey.
Keep going.
So we need a sales agent, right?
The much heralded, often misunderstood,but critical piece of the puzzle in any
independent film sale is a sales agent.
And how do you get a sales agent?
(06:53):
Where do you find a sales agent?
How can you get their attentionand how can you be first on their
list of priorities at the festival?
That is a complicated andserious bunch of questions.
So that I don't know thatI have the answer to.
Let's see, I've made three features, uh,two, which have actually been released
and got theatrical distribution were weuse the process you described, which is
(07:19):
that we knew sales agents through friends.
Usually our producers had an in witha top flight sales agent, and we were
able to get the movie in front of them.
And then based on.
What they consider to be theirchances of success because they
get paid based on a commission.
(07:40):
So they only need to rep filmsthat they feel like they can sell.
Then they position youto get into festivals.
Um, or I think in our case, we had alreadygotten into the festivals, you're gonna
premiere and then engage a sales agent.
Most sales agents these days won'ttake on a project if they don't
know where the premier is, and so.
(08:02):
I think in the old days, theolden times, you wanted to
get your fortune, fortune on.
Yes.
As early as possible.
But the reality that I've, uh,encountered and, and sounds like
you have too, is that sales agents,um, choose wisely the projects that
they'll put time and, and effort into.
And so there's no point in them joining aproject until a premier date has been set.
(08:26):
I think.
That sales agents havea harder and harder job.
These days, okay.
There are mega mergers happening.
There are people watching docs lessand less, even though it seems like
they're watching them more and more.
The eyeballs are actually quitediffuse because there's so much
programming and the sales justaren't as big as they used to be.
(08:49):
So the, uh, sales agents have a.
Tough job, but so do indie filmmakers.
And the thing that you can reallygain from coming to a festival is
building the relationships thatwill then help you make your next
film and your next and your next.
And if you focus just on selling theproject that you've done, I think
you're doing yourself a disservice.
(09:11):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, it's totally, it's a multi,multi-tiered and multi-pronged.
Um.
Value to gain from thefestival experience.
I do wanna take note of this newsoundscape we're experiencing.
Gonna say we'd be remiss notto mention that we are walking
through a tunnel right now.
This is a tunnel underneath some
prospector railroad tracks.
(09:33):
At least if the mural in the tunnel isto be believed and the sound is amazing.
Woo Tunnel, Sundance.
Tunnel Sundance.
All right, let's keep
going.
We are emerging from the tunnel.
(09:53):
Ooh.
And yeah, it sounds quite different.
No, the festival's about more than sales.
It's about more than press.
It's about more thanconnecting with audiences.
It's about more thanconnecting with filmmakers.
It's about all those things.
You know, we all dream of like thekind of bidding war, um, you know,
at the after party at the premier.
But the reality is thesales process starts.
Weeks before the festival, salesagents are engaging buyers trying
(10:16):
to gin up interest in a big sale.
A lot of times what happens is thatthe decision makers don't come to the
screening, but they send their othercolleagues and then so they come back
and say, you have to see Keith's film.
Then it takes a while for the personto see the film, or maybe they
have to consider multiple films,and so then they have to have a
meeting, and so all of that drags on.
(10:37):
For a lot longer than filmmakersgenerally like, right.
So just like every otherstep of this process,
you've gotta have a stomach for theuncertain, you gotta be comfortable,
um, in the knowing of not knowing.
Ooh.
The knowing
of not knowing,
I think there's a book calledthat and I didn't make that up.
All
right.
What are we doing?
(10:58):
Well, we're walking, we're talkingso much walking, so much talking.
We are doing a lot of talking and we aresurrounded by people here at Sundance.
So why don't we, uh, ask somepeople on the street some questions?
That is a great idea, and it is alsoperfect timing because looking down the
street, what I see walking towards us is.
(11:22):
Wait a minute.
Don't we know this guy coming at us here?
That is Frank Mosley.
Frank is my partner on my new dock.
Let's see what Frank hasto say about Sundance.
How you doing Frank?
Hey, how you doing Keith?
What's going on?
Do you know Ben Stein Bauer?
No, I don't.
I was just snow treating you right now.
I'm freezing.
I hate it.
I'm doing great.
So Frank, we're here at the2025 Sundance Film Festival.
(11:45):
Tell us, uh, what, what, how'sSundance been for you so far?
I
just got off the plane.
We're already having a lunch, and,uh, did this meeting have some films?
I'm gonna see, I'm in a film.
I'm in premieres tomorrow night.
Fred, what
is the, like, like what's the valueof a film festival in 2025, do
you think?
I got a lot of answers for that,but the one right off the bat I'll
(12:05):
say is in-person connectivity.
You know, if more thanever everything is virtual.
So to be able to actually.
Be in a space with people and connect, andI think it gives it kind of a, a thrill
that's been missing for a while, you know?
Do you have any tips for firsttime filmmakers who are, you
know, about to send their filmsoff to their first festival?
(12:25):
Yeah.
I mean, it's tough.
I, I would say.
Do research on festivals.
You know, not, not every film is rightfor every festival, you know, and
don't be afraid of the regional fest.
I, I think that's where the heartof, of indie film really lies.
I mean, the first festival outside ofDallas that took one of my films was
Sidewalk in Birmingham, and that wasthe biggest deal in the world to me.
Getting into that festival.
(12:47):
I mean, it changed everything.
Having a film outside of my homestate, it felt like I was a real.
Filmmaker, you
know?
Right, right, right.
It's a big step.
So it's, it's the validation.
Validation and then alsoknowing that it's a long game.
Just keep making stuff with yourcommunity and let the community
expand, you know, hope for the best.
Amen.
I think that's great.
It's, uh, it's good to see, Frank.
(13:08):
You too.
Uh, Frank's got a premiere here.
He is an actor.
He's a lead in, uh, in a filmpremiering in the next category.
What does that mean next?
It is a, a category supposedly reservedfor films that are boundary pushing,
either in form content or both.
Um, and you know, the, you seea range of films in there that
(13:29):
usually a little more adventurous.
I wouldn't say experimental, butthey definitely take some risks.
And what's the film called?
Oex.
OBEX.
Oex.
Yeah.
Nice.
All
right.
Lookback.
Oh, look out for Oex.
Look out for opex.
Alright.
Excellent Frank.
Cool.
This is good.
Good.
Meet your, you too.
Yeah, thanks for doing this.
I'll be, you know,
(13:49):
we'll, we'll see eachother wandering around.
Awesome.
All See you about 18.
I'll see you.
Should we try and hop on one of thesebuses or do you wanna just walk back?
I don't mind walking.
It's up to you.
I
don't, yeah, I don't mind walking.
Let's get her, let's get her steps in.
Okay.
Louis has like,
excuse me.
I see you have a badge on.
Uh, yeah.
And tell us what's going onhere and what you're up to.
(14:10):
Just enjoying the festival, man.
Having fun, you know,seeing all the movies.
Are you a, are you a filmmaker?
Uh, yeah, but I'm just here volunteering.
Oh, you are?
Oh, you're a volunteer.
Okay.
What's the volunteerexperience at Sundance?
Um, awesome man.
Everyone's reallyfriendly and really nice.
Yeah,
really.
Is this your first year
at Sundance?
Yeah,
it is.
Okay.
It's a lot of fun, man.
You guys should see some
phelp.
You look like you got a place to go.
(14:30):
You're trying to get out of this.
Yeah.
We're going to sea somestuff there you guys.
What are you doing here at the festival?
Uh, I'm actually skiingand snowboarding, so.
Oh, so you're not evenhere to see the movies?
Yeah.
Oh, amazing.
Is this your first time at Sundance?
Yeah.
Ah, mine too.
Awesome.
How's it going for you so far?
We just got here, we just paid60 bucks to park, so hopefully,
Hey,
it's fun.
(14:50):
You're
here.
You made it.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Have a blast, man.
Thanks a lot.
Okay.
Do you see who I see coming up the road?
Is that Conan O'Brien?
I think that's Conan O'Brien.
Let's go see if we can go
Conan.
Look out for the ice.
Look out for the ice.
Look out for the ice.
I, we will look out for the ice.
Thank you.
There it goes.
Conan O'Brien.
So tell me who you are and,uh, what you're doing here.
(15:10):
My name's So Haki, um, I'mdirector, producer, editor of Rocks.
And how do you pronounce your name?
You look like you, Ahmad.
Reza A. Okay.
I'm Iranian.
Iranian.
Okay.
Awesome.
And what film are
you here with?
Ti
Through
Rock.
Oh, awesome.
And, uh, tell me what the film is about.
So, cutting through rocks takesplace in the northwest of Iran.
(15:31):
It's in a very patriarchal setting,but that's where we meet, uh, our
lead character, who in the past she'sbeen a midwife and delivered 400 kids.
So now the story starts with herwanting to run for a council seat.
That sounds fascinating.
Yeah.
And so is this yourfirst time at Sundance?
Yes, it's our first time here.
(15:52):
How has the festival been for you so far?
It's good.
It's very nice just talking chatteringwith people, other filmmakers and also,
you know, because we finished a filmrecently, so we also carry on the, the
burden of emotionally, the burden offinishing the film, the story that we
(16:13):
spent seven years of our lives there.
So being here is just, for me, it's amix of a lot of feelings of happiness.
Just the feeling of completion andalso a little bit, maybe sadness or,
you know, saying goodbye to project.
(16:35):
Right?
Yeah.
It's like a birth.
You, you birth it into the world andnow what happens is not up to you.
That's complete.
It's a new journey.
It's completely a new journey.
What do you think about, uh, yourchances of selling your documentary,
the documentary market in general?
What are your thoughts about that?
Well, you know, I, I know, uh, andthis is something we've been told.
Over and over again that this is notparticularly the best market, uh,
(16:58):
over the past, uh, years, especiallyafter Covid or even prior to Covid.
But, uh, we made this film havingthat knowledge already because for
us, more than selling or buying,Edward is about telling the story.
So it's not necessarily about what happenshere monetarily, it's about that you made
(17:20):
the film and that you told the story thatyou want to tell and that you get it out
in the world as a, as a gift in a way.
Yes.
But, but we all feel also having thisoptimism that even though it took a
long time to be here today, we have, uh.
Feeling that it will find itsaudience, it will find its
(17:40):
sales team when it's meant to.
Well, I hope it does.
Good luck.
Thank you so much.
Well, you guys are great.
Yes sir. Thank you for the time.
I really appreciate it.
Appreciate the time.
Uh, good luck with the premiereand I can't wait to see the movie.
Awesome.
Alright, bye-bye.
Okay, so that was.
Mohammed, Reza a, I think I'msaying that right, and Sarah Cocky.
They are the directors and producers ofcutting through Rocks, the Iranian film,
(18:04):
and what a cool way to have met them.
We were literally standing inline for a cup of coffee at the
Adobe house, and uh, I went over.
And just struck up a conversation.
And lo and behold, thereare doc filmmakers here from
Iran International World Premier, and Idon't know what Sarah had to say about,
you know, I think we've, we focus a loton like what's the marketplace, but you
(18:27):
know, Sarah reminds us like this firstand foremost as storytellers, our job.
Is to get these stories out thereand to connect with audiences.
And that's, you know, the, what they'rehoping happens with cutting through rocks.
I don't know.
Um,
and, and they worked on it for10 years and there was this
kind of twinkle in their eye.
They were so excited to be, uh,showing their film here and finally
getting it out in the world.
(18:47):
So to talk about it like a birth,that was, that was really cool.
Yeah.
Let's talk to some other folks.
My name is Paul Vez.
I'm a director of photographyon the film, the Librarians.
And, um, we're very happyto premiere at Sundance.
It's a huge, huge accomplishment becausethe movie was literally finished five days
(19:08):
ago and you're hot exported, and you're
basically, I'm talking toyou right after the premiere.
Right?
We
premiered at the Ray.
Wow.
We had a huge turnout.
Like what is it that you get out ofbeing at a festival like Sundance?
Um.
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, I think the goal for anyfilmmaker is to meet other filmmakers
and to collaborate with other filmmakers.
(19:28):
Um, we are working in a documentaryworld, which is underfunded.
Political things are very hard tosell, especially now, Netflix, HBO.
Nobody wants to buy a really highlypolitical movie, so being in a
space like Sundance is like a wayto connect to the rest of the world.
Well, congrats man.
This is really huge.
I'm so excited to seeyou here bumping you.
This is like why people come to.
(19:50):
This, you know, this festival,like you live in New York.
We work together on a commercial.
Yes.
I live in Austin.
Like we wouldn't get achance to overlap really.
And so it was amazing to see you and youworked on the film that my buddy edited.
Yep.
So I love it.
This is, this world's colliding.
Uh, who are you andwhat are you doing here
at Sun?
My name is Angelan.
I'm a social mediamanager for a foundation.
(20:11):
Um, and I'm here to documentthe Sundance experience for said
Foundation because we support.
Independent documentary filmmaking,participatory civic media journalism
and things of that nature.
And is the question, what are mythoughts on the state of it today?
Well, actually you're a very interestingperson to talk to because you are so
plugged into social media, and I think abig part of what's challenging documentary
(20:34):
viewership right now is social media.
So how do you think social media ischallenging documentary and changing it?
I
think the same way that social mediakind of made everyone a journalist, it
enabled everyone to be a documentarianto not even just like cinema, um,
necessarily just real time coverage ofevents that are happening in South Korea.
(20:54):
Like there's martial law happening.
People who are in the DemocraticRepublic of Congo talking about
the way that mining for minerals isimpacting their local population.
So I think anyone who has a storyto tell has the means to do so.
Um.
It.
Yeah.
And so that democratization of media isgreat on the one hand, but then on the
other hand, if everybody's scrollingthrough TikTok and not watching longer
(21:15):
form narratives, that also feels likethere's something missing or that
that's like maybe not a positive, right?
It is a trade off, and I thinkthat maybe the storytellers have
to decide what's more important.
Is it awareness?
Is it a call to action?
Is it.
Considering something in a differentperspective that might actually require
more detailed storytelling and youflatten it in 30 seconds or 90 seconds
(21:38):
and you don't want to go that route.
I think all that's valid.
Yeah.
What are you excited about for 2025when you look at like the landscape
of what's coming, what you do fora living, and what matters to the,
the people that you work with?
When seismic shifts happen and thesocial media space, and we get it
riles up everyone, not even justpeople who are creators, but people
who are also consumers feel likethey have a stake in, in the concept
that they're consuming and the.
(21:59):
The content moderation, the policies,they're upset about the algorithm.
Like everyone getsreally, really in on it.
And it kind of feels like, to me, likethat collective evers essence when people
have a, when there's the lottery andit's like a really, really high jackpot.
It's just everyone's, everyonewants to buy a ticket, even if
they know they're not gonna win.
So that's why I feel about socialmedia is like, even if you're not
a concert creator, like you'restill, you're still in on it.
You're in the game.
And I'm excited towitness that excitement.
(22:22):
That's a great answer.
Oh, here comes Russell.
Wayne Groves right here.
What's up buddy?
Russell's a an executive producer.
Producer.
Done all kinds of award-winningmoneymaking documentaries.
How's life?
Well, we're here at theSundance Film Festival.
Yeah.
What do you do?
Do you know Keith Maitland?
Keith, this is Russell.
I know of Keith.
You know, same.
I've heard your name so many times andwe have a lot of friends in common.
(22:43):
Yeah.
You look like you are not wearingnear the amount of layers that we are.
And I'm freezing in all this, in all this.
Pretty good.
So, are you here to catch movies?
To set
meetings, to do a little fundraising
or what?
I never come to to watch movies.
I come to meet withpeople, talk about stuff.
I'm really interested intwo things in particular.
What is the state of distribution in salesin this business for indies in particular,
(23:07):
which is a disaster area in my opinion.
Uh, but I'm just curious kinda wherethings are headed just based upon from
sales, talking to submarine, talking to X,Y, Z, and talking to other distributors.
And then on the financing side, tryingto curate what is a pathway that is a
feasible pathway that mitigates riskfor investors, but also curates the
(23:29):
best approach since you could makeconsistent films and not have to worry
about doing a startup every single time.
Every time.
That's a great way to put it.
Those are the things I'm trying to crack.
Yeah, that's a great way to say it.
This is my first time ever coming toSundance, really, and I've fought it.
To me, I fought it my whole career.
I was a snob about it.
I didn't want to comeunless I had a movie here.
(23:50):
Okay.
And Keith and I started doingthis podcast and he convinced
me, yeah, the time is now.
You gotta put that shitaway and come up here.
And I have to say, so far everythingyou're describing is my experience.
I just getting to meet with people and I'm
curious to see what the fireshave done to attendance.
It's a tragedy and I, you can'tdiscount the fact that it's gonna
(24:11):
have some kind of material effect.
I am hopeful if there's a silver liningthat people are a little bit more open
and emotional and willing to talk aboutthings, and maybe it's a little bit
less crowded so you can actually havesome discussions with some people.
But, but I'm looking atit positive either way.
You have to, you gotta, youhave to be a hopeless optimist
to, to be in this business.
(24:31):
Yeah.
And sometimes that's difficult to find.
Well, I did say hopeless.
Yeah,
exactly.
Hopelessness is certainly there.
What are you looking to getout of, uh, coming to Sundance?
Um, we out here at Sundance, you know,everybody's out here enjoying themselves.
Unfortunately, I gotta work, but I'm gladto be here and be able to meet people
like y'all and just share the good vibes.
(24:52):
What y'all are,
you, you do have some good vibes.
Yeah,
thanks.
I think very vibe.
Yeah.
What are you doing right now?
Like what, what's your jobthat you're doing here?
Um, so right now we're just facilitatingparking and making sure nobody comes with
their car and try to ram people over.
Thank you.
You know what I mean?
Thank you for
your service.
Absolutely.
But if everybody, everybodycould check out my, my music.
I'm on YouTube, uh, chosen afew productions chosen, gore
(25:15):
chosen with the Z-C-H-O-Z-E-N.
I'd appreciate it.
Just to give you guys alittle tidy sneak peek.
It's something light like, whydon't you, oh, that was horrible.
Take, try that again.
Take time.
Try that again.
Try that again.
I want a coach.
How about a coach?
She wanted Birkins.
(25:36):
Everyone said she wasn't worth it.
If all in the club twerking shewas working made me nervous.
She was lurking.
She wanted Birkins shout outto all my homies locked up and
all the people in the struggle.
I feel like there's something hugegoing on in the world and there's an
enlightening process happening andI think if all of us together as a
using, as a unit and a collective startlooking at our differences and what we
(26:00):
have in common, we can go a long ways.
I feel like there'sgonna be a great reset.
You know, so what areyou guys out here doing?
This is a documentary with stuff.
We are,
uh, we're, we're documentary filmmakerswho happen to be, uh, moonlighting right
now as podcasters wandering the streets.
Probably not to get hit by the UPS truck.
Yeah.
Look out this guy's coming throughand, uh, we saw you over here.
(26:22):
I don't know.
We, we were feeling the good vibe.
Something drew us overand I'm glad we did.
Absolutely chosen
glory.
See, chose ZEA with amillion dollar smile, man.
Keep smiling.
All, all right.
Thank you.
Thanks a lot.
Bless y'all.
All right, you too.
Uh, excuse me, sir, whatis your favorite bird?
Stop.
See, that guy just sailed on by.
(26:42):
Ooh.
Like, like he was conO'Brien or something.
Excuse me.
Con O'Brien, what is your favorite bird?
Look out for the ice.
Watch out for that eagle.
I,
excuse me.
Hi,
how is Sance treating you?
That's great.
Yeah, it's wonderful.
Yeah, we're film here, so it's.
(27:02):
Couldn't be any better.
Speak to me about that film.
It's a feature film documentary aboutthis competitive high school speech and
debate tournament that is nationwide,and we followed five incredibly talented
seniors all the way through entire schoolyear to the final tournament that it
happens every year with up to 10,000 kids.
Beautiful.
(27:22):
It's an incredible experiencebecause it really gives you hope for
the future once you see that film.
Incredible.
We need that right now.
Congratulations.
What's your role in the film?
What's your name?
I was producer.
I'm Christophe.
And also cinematographer on it.
All right.
Producer and cinematographer
getting little insights into this filmthroughout the process because our
good friend Oay Ed was your composer.
Oay Iss the best.
(27:43):
He really, oay is the best.
I did see, uh, you know, a bunch of cutsobviously, but really once his music
one day and they just kind of blew.
Yeah, it really blew.
There's like an unbelievable thing.
Yeah, that's great.
That's, so you
had a great premiere.
Had a great premiere.
Yep.
What are you hoping for next?
What are the next steps forspeed for, uh, festival,
festival festivals, but also when wewanna, we wanted the film to get out
(28:04):
there because it is the film thatfeels so much more important than
it even felt like two months ago.
And this is kind of one of theseantidotes because those kids, you can
tell, call you kids, students, almostin adults, you know, but they're 17.
But they are the future and, andthey, they will be fighting for
it and everybody should see it.
(28:26):
Yeah.
Alright.
And do you have distribution already?
Not yet.
We're looking, but we had a ton of peoplethere and people seem to really love
it, so we really, really optimistic.
Excellent.
Great.
Optimistic, there's that word again.
He's optimistic.
I know.
Hey,
well, since you're hitting oneof our main themes is optimism.
Yeah.
I also need to know Christophe.
Yeah.
What is your favorite bird?
My favorite bird.
(28:46):
I love a blue jay.
I love Blue Jay.
I love blue.
And you know blue.
Well
look at those beautiful blue eyes.
You have Christ off.
Yeah,
that's right.
Exactly right.
That's a perfect match, right?
There we go.
Um,
what do you think?
I think, you know, after first day ofSundance, what struck with me is there's
(29:08):
a real community vibe here in Park Cityand our instinct that this would be a
great way to start off the calendar year,give a little inspiration to kind of.
Fill our cup and driveforward, I think bears out.
I think we're not theonly ones thinking that.
Uh, it seems like everybody I spoketo was really excited and optimistic
about the future.
(29:29):
That should be the nameof the, of this episode.
Yes.
Hopeless Optimist.
You can sort of look at it either way.
Are you hopeless or are you an optimist,or are you a hopeless optimist?
And I think in order to do thiswork, you have to be two of those.
Three.
You have to be optimistic at minimum.
Hopelessly optimistic at most.
(29:50):
And if you're hopeless, you're notgonna get very far making documentaries.
Excuse me.
Is this Jessica Wolfson?
This has been
five hours.
Hi.
Hey friend.
How's it going?
Good.
Look at us in Park City.
Look at you, doc Walking.
I know.
This is great.
This is your first time at Sundance.
This is my first time at Sundance.
I feel very much likeI'm crashing the party.
(30:10):
I feel like an imposterand I really hate it.
No you shouldn't.
Just because you don't have a filmerdoes not mean you don't have to be here.
This is a community of people.
You should go and MOUs while you
Yeah.
Um, but you guys are comingto my weird house party.
We are today.
I'll be honest.
I'll
be on the later side.
Okay.
Can we bring some folks?
Is that all right?
Please?
Yeah.
See
you guys later.
Producer podcast for us.
Um,
(30:33):
okay.
That was great.
I do wanna say like, we'regetting long in the day here, but.
I see an old friendwalking down the street.
Um, I'm gonna just grab her and see ifshe'll talk to us or do you know Sue Kim?
I don't.
Okay.
So I met Sue in 2008.
We were both pretty early in our careers.
(30:53):
She has had a phenomenalrun as a producer.
I know she made Hale County this morning.
Um, the tube of Thieves.
Midnight Traveler, um, I think she hadlast year, I think for hidden letters.
And the thing I love aboutSue more than anything is that
she always tells him straight.
Great, let's talk to her.
Yeah,
we're walking down the streetand who do I look up and see?
(31:14):
But Sue Kim Superstar inthe documentary community.
Sundance Stalwart.
Did we meet back in 2008at the Producers Academy?
Mm-hmm.
I feel like I've known youforever and that makes sense.
'cause that was basically thebeginning of, of everything for me.
Same for you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, Sue, this is Ben Steinhower.
Hi Sue.
So nice to meet you.
I shake your hand, but uh, my hand Iunderstand is holding a microphone.
(31:35):
Um,
so we're just walking around.
Uh, we have a little podcastthat we're trying to get started
called Doc Walks, where we go onwalks and talk to doc filmmakers.
And, uh, here we are walking aroundMain Street and we saw you and
we thought, let's talk to Sue.
Is that cool?
What are we gonna talk about?
Let's talk about ducks, let'stalk about documentaries.
Let's, yeah.
Are you here at the festival of the film?
No, no film this year I came,um, 'cause I wanted to see films.
(31:58):
Yeah.
And has that been working out?
Have you been able to see stuff?
I don't know.
Like I, I schedule things too tightlyand so I, I haven't seen it as
many films as wanted to, but morethan when I'm here with the film.
Yeah.
What have you seen thatyou've loved so far?
I don't know.
You know, I haven't had enoughtime to process because it's
kind of a spectrum like I.
You know, need to like watchthings and then think about it.
(32:20):
And I haven't really had achance to think about it.
Gotcha.
What are you thinking aboutwhen you look at the documentary
marketplace as a producer?
Mm-hmm.
As somebody who is working as anindependent, um, what does the
world look like for you for 2025?
Um, I think it's a reallychallenging marketplace right now.
(32:41):
I think the big thing that.
The big funder for documentaries,you know, we both know, it's
like been public television.
Yeah.
And then with like the new administration,like all of that seems very up in the air.
And so then if you look at likecommercial, uh, entities that may
purchase or um, commission films, Ithink that they're also like, they're
not producing the kind of filmsthat probably you and I are making.
(33:03):
Yeah.
So I think it's, um,it's different, you know?
You know, it's really interesting'cause when I first started, people
always said to me how hard it was.
When people say that now, but Ifeel like the heart is just, it's
not a measure, it's just different.
Yeah.
I, I think like the one thingabout being an indie filmmaker,
I've learned to be resilient.
Yes.
You have to.
Right?
And one of the things that, uh, keepscoming up when we talk to people
(33:26):
is the idea of being hopelesslyoptimistic and that that's what gets
you started doing this work and youhave, Sue doesn't agree with that.
What do you think, sir?
I don't, I don't agree with that.
Oh,
tell me why.
I
think I have, like, I try tohave realistic goals about
the things that I'm doing.
Like, um, because if youdon't have realistic goals,
you set yourself up to fail.
And I'm really, I don't wannasee anything I'm working on fail.
(33:46):
So I, I try to be realistic andreally, you know, look at what I'm
working on and what what's out there.
And then really have a plan for thatparticular project that works for that
project based on the goals of the team.
So
that is spoken like a true producer.
That p pragmatic is all Get out, Su
No, but otherwise, you know, it, itleaves people in a place where they
(34:08):
feel like they failed and that it'sreally hard to get yourself back up.
Yeah, I think that's right.
He is making up.
Um, well we are aboutto head into this party.
Sue's gonna join us, so we're gonnawrap it up here, but there's a million
more questions I'd love to ask you.
Are you planning on gonnasouth by, by any chance?
No,
no.
I'm gonna Berlin.
Oh, good for you.
Oh, that's a good Sue.
As a foam goer.
I have very good friends there.
Awesome.
Cool.
(34:29):
Okay, awesome.
Well that was Sue.
What did I tell you?
She tells it like it is.
She
tells it like it is.
I feel, uh, like she slapped me inthe face with some wisdom and Well,
you know, I mean, I feel like we'vebeen talking about optimism and
most of the folks that we've talkedto today, whether they're other
filmmakers or old friends of ours fromAustin that we bumped into here, like
(34:50):
everybody's been in a pretty good mood.
Everybody's been pretty optimistic.
We've been talking aboutoptimism and so we slide that
line to Sue, I think you said.
What did you say?
Uh, you have to be a hopeless optimistto do this work, and Sue just,
just smacked that right back down.
And she said, no, you gotta keep it real.
Mm-hmm.
You gotta keep it real.
Ben Stein Bower.
And I like the, I, her conclusionabout that makes a lot of sense to
(35:11):
me, which is that if you have inflatedexpectations, then you're setting
yourself up for disappointment.
And I can, I can get with that.
I understand what she's saying andyou know, I think it's a. It's kind
of dependent on your personality.
Like do you, um, imagine great thingsand you're striving for this like kind of
brighter future all the time, or are youthinking, you know, the, there's a sort of
(35:36):
realistic life that this is going to haveand that way you don't set yourself up
for the lows of not reaching that sort of
fast high.
Yeah.
One, that's the things you can't.
You can't get hung up on thehopeless optimism because coupled
with that optimism has to comea lot of real work, right?
Like real decision making, real work.
(35:57):
You're still budgeting, you'restill cold calling, you're
still pounding the pavement.
Yeah.
Uh, and, and it is a lot of workand it's a lot of time and you
have to be a force of nature.
And so maybe it's instead ofhopeless, maybe it's hopeful.
Okay.
Hopeful and
hopeful
optimist.
Hopeful optimist.
Yeah.
I know Sue is pragmatic and she is, uh,focused, focused, optimist, hopeful.
(36:19):
Pragmatist, foist.
Uh, we are not sure what you have tobe, but uh, I know that Ben is cold.
I'm freezing.
Can we please go inside?
And so this has been, uh, thedock walks live at Sundance.
Experience.
Um.
Tomorrow's day two.
We've got some interviews lined up.
(36:40):
Uh, I'm hoping maybe we could see a movie.
Um, you know.
No, we're not here for movies.
We're here to walk and dock.
That's right.
Alright, doc.
Walking the day away into the night.
Uh, for Ben Stower.
Steinhower, I'm Keith Mayen.
Easy for you to say.
Uh, alright.
Alright.
Until next time.
Okay.
Thanks everybody.
Bye.
(37:03):
Next time on Doc Walks,
we are going to talk to AcademyAward nominated producer Diane Kwan,
who made one of my favoritedocumentaries Minding the Gap,
and very excited to talk to her.
This is where you say,so stay tuned, everybody.
I say that.
(37:24):
Yeah.
Well, you
just said it, so I think we're covered.
Okay.
Thanks everybody.
Do you feel like that's good?
I think so.
Dock Walks is created, produced,and edited by my friend Ben
Stein, Bower of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend Keith
Maitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
Oh, almost forgot my glasses.
We're gonna get outtathis condo one day, Keith.
All right.
What do you think?
Keith?
You ready?
Yep.
I'm just plugging in thethe walking directions.
Closing the condo door.
And we're off.
And here we go.
Head west on
Deer Valley.
Drive toward Deer Valley Loop Road.
(00:20):
Alright, thank you, robot.
All right.
According to my phone, it is 31 degrees.
Here in Park City, today'shigh is 31 degrees, so this
is as warm as it is gonna get.
The low is 15 degrees,which is not so bad.
'cause when we got here last night,I think the low was eight degrees.
(00:40):
It was very, very cold Last night, walkingback from the party, I was struggling.
This is almost like a balmy 31.
I feel pretty good
on your left.
You're listening to DocWalk with Ben and Keith.
Well, is this where we should talkabout how you talked me into coming
(01:02):
here and I said I didn't want to?
I am.
I'm actually fairly uncomfortablebeing in a film festival
where I am not showing work.
I feel like I'm crashinga party in some way.
And so being here to record our podcastmakes me feel a little more like I belong.
But I would say in general, I feela little bit like an outsider here.
(01:23):
Yeah, I could appreciate that.
Um, I do feel like I twisted your arma little bit and maybe even tricked
you a little bit just so I wouldn'thave to wander these streets by myself,
but Okay, Keith, so what are we doing?
We are walking down Deer Valley.
Drive into the heart.
Of Park City and why are we here?
Why are we here?
I always look at Sundance as kindof like the kickoff of the new year.
(01:46):
It's like the calendar year begins herelate January in Park City, and what
happens here over the course of thenext five or six days in a way, can
kind of set the tone for how this year.
Just may go
right.
And we are here at a pivotal time.
(02:07):
Uh, we just had an election.
There is the threat of AI looming.
There is declining viewership withsocial media competing for eyeballs.
So it does feel like we're ina particularly transitional
state at the moment.
We're here to take a lookaround, talk to some people.
We score a few free drinks at someparties, and, uh, kind of fill up our cup.
(02:31):
Start the new year witha little fresh inspira
and really anybody who is here tomake a living making documentaries
or indie films is here.
Looking for funding, looking forcollaborators, present, company included.
Here we are walking up to MainStreet where this all happens.
It's the main artery.
(02:53):
Of the festival and everybody iswalking around looking each other up
and down, looking to see who's here.
See, it looks like there's a lot of peoplegathering outside the Shutterstock chalet.
There's the Adobe House home of AdobePremiere and maybe some free hot cocoa.
Ooh, I could go for some free high cocoa.
'cause
the Disney Store,
(03:13):
you know, all the indie shit, all theindependent artists represented me.
I like how every once in a whilewe see a guy like this here who is,
um, clearly only here to be skiing,
click clacking and skiboots up Main Street.
We are passing a along line hereof people waiting to see a film.
Hi.
What movie are you waiting to see?
(03:34):
It's not a movie.
It's uh, um, it's a panel, Latino panelfor, for, uh, emerging filmmakers.
Oh, cool.
Do who's on the panel?
Do you know?
Yui Guzman.
Oh,
cool.
Very
cool.
And there's gonna be speakers likeChristina Castine, Ian Rodriguez, Del
Joanna Fernandez, you, Sophia Camargo.
And then at three, it's uh, fromthe dream to screen the Indie
(03:56):
Filmmakers Roadmap to Success.
Have you been to Sundance before?
My first name
really?
What's your name?
Adrian.
Adrian.
Nice to meet you.
I'm Ben.
Oh, nice to meet you.
Yeah, this is my first timetoo, so I'm excited to be here.
Yeah.
Oh look, here's a cheer lift for thepeople who are here to ski, which
is what this town is actually about.
Yeah, I think
there's a gondola that we can takeup to the top for free, which would
(04:16):
be a fun, um, fun way to see thetown and maybe, um, take the dock
walking more vertical to new heights.
Ooh, look at you.
Should we cross here?
Okay.
I just wanna take noteof this bird up here.
It is a black and white bird witha very long tail that my family and
I have seen on trips to Colorado.
(04:39):
And we refer to thatbird as a tuxedo pigeon.
A tuxedo pigeon.
And then here's a sign thatsays birds of Park City.
Oh, we're in a bird watchingzone, I'm pretty sure.
And there's
a tuxedo pigeon right there,which I've come to find out
is actually called a magpie.
Ooh, I think I like tuxedopigeon better, right?
Well, we'll keep our eye out for moreof those, including Mountain Bluebird.
(05:02):
Mountain Bluebird.
That's a good looking bird.
Good looking mountain.
Bluebird.
Let's keep our eye out for thered wing blackbird, the black ca
chickadee and the house sparrow
in the house bar.
Okay.
I'm, I'm keeping my eyes peeled.
I like how this is, you're, you'retrying your hardest to make this
a podcast about bird watching.
I don't have to try the birds come to me.
(05:23):
Um, okay.
So.
Sundance is important becauseof selling your film and people
come here, uh, as filmmakers.
They apply and hope to get inbecause this is the premier.
Festival in the United States wheredistributors come to watch films.
Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it.
It's not that simple.
Obviously you have to havesales agents, uh, PR folks.
(05:47):
What else do you need to do?
Well, selling a film is a lot likeselling a house, and so as filmmakers.
We kinda operate as architects andcontractors, but there's one significant
piece of the puzzle missing incomparing a film to a house, especially
a spec film, which is when you builda house, you start out by buying a
piece of dirt and then you build up.
(06:07):
But when you make afilm, you're on the hunt.
For is the plot of land thatthis film is gonna call home.
And for the purposes of this drawn outanalogy, that plot of land is something
along the lines of a Netflix or an HBOor an international theatrical rollout.
It's about distribution.
And so we need a realtor, or in filmfestival terms, you need a sales agent.
(06:31):
This is a solid analogy, by the way.
I like this, this house analogy.
The thing about it isit's all in the framing.
Hey.
Keep going.
So we need a sales agent, right?
The much heralded, often misunderstood,but critical piece of the puzzle in any
independent film sale is a sales agent.
And how do you get a sales agent?
(06:53):
Where do you find a sales agent?
How can you get their attentionand how can you be first on their
list of priorities at the festival?
That is a complicated andserious bunch of questions.
So that I don't know thatI have the answer to.
Let's see, I've made three features, uh,two, which have actually been released
and got theatrical distribution were weuse the process you described, which is
(07:19):
that we knew sales agents through friends.
Usually our producers had an in witha top flight sales agent, and we were
able to get the movie in front of them.
And then based on.
What they consider to be theirchances of success because they
get paid based on a commission.
(07:40):
So they only need to rep filmsthat they feel like they can sell.
Then they position youto get into festivals.
Um, or I think in our case, we had alreadygotten into the festivals, you're gonna
premiere and then engage a sales agent.
Most sales agents these days won'ttake on a project if they don't
know where the premier is, and so.
(08:02):
I think in the old days, theolden times, you wanted to
get your fortune, fortune on.
Yes.
As early as possible.
But the reality that I've, uh,encountered and, and sounds like
you have too, is that sales agents,um, choose wisely the projects that
they'll put time and, and effort into.
And so there's no point in them joining aproject until a premier date has been set.
(08:26):
I think.
That sales agents havea harder and harder job.
These days, okay.
There are mega mergers happening.
There are people watching docs lessand less, even though it seems like
they're watching them more and more.
The eyeballs are actually quitediffuse because there's so much
programming and the sales justaren't as big as they used to be.
(08:49):
So the, uh, sales agents have a.
Tough job, but so do indie filmmakers.
And the thing that you can reallygain from coming to a festival is
building the relationships thatwill then help you make your next
film and your next and your next.
And if you focus just on selling theproject that you've done, I think
you're doing yourself a disservice.
(09:11):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, it's totally, it's a multi,multi-tiered and multi-pronged.
Um.
Value to gain from thefestival experience.
I do wanna take note of this newsoundscape we're experiencing.
Gonna say we'd be remiss notto mention that we are walking
through a tunnel right now.
This is a tunnel underneath some
prospector railroad tracks.
(09:33):
At least if the mural in the tunnel isto be believed and the sound is amazing.
Woo Tunnel, Sundance.
Tunnel Sundance.
All right, let's keep
going.
We are emerging from the tunnel.
(09:53):
Ooh.
And yeah, it sounds quite different.
No, the festival's about more than sales.
It's about more than press.
It's about more thanconnecting with audiences.
It's about more thanconnecting with filmmakers.
It's about all those things.
You know, we all dream of like thekind of bidding war, um, you know,
at the after party at the premier.
But the reality is thesales process starts.
Weeks before the festival, salesagents are engaging buyers trying
(10:16):
to gin up interest in a big sale.
A lot of times what happens is thatthe decision makers don't come to the
screening, but they send their othercolleagues and then so they come back
and say, you have to see Keith's film.
Then it takes a while for the personto see the film, or maybe they
have to consider multiple films,and so then they have to have a
meeting, and so all of that drags on.
(10:37):
For a lot longer than filmmakersgenerally like, right.
So just like every otherstep of this process,
you've gotta have a stomach for theuncertain, you gotta be comfortable,
um, in the knowing of not knowing.
Ooh.
The knowing
of not knowing,
I think there's a book calledthat and I didn't make that up.
All
right.
What are we doing?
(10:58):
Well, we're walking, we're talkingso much walking, so much talking.
We are doing a lot of talking and we aresurrounded by people here at Sundance.
So why don't we, uh, ask somepeople on the street some questions?
That is a great idea, and it is alsoperfect timing because looking down the
street, what I see walking towards us is.
(11:22):
Wait a minute.
Don't we know this guy coming at us here?
That is Frank Mosley.
Frank is my partner on my new dock.
Let's see what Frank hasto say about Sundance.
How you doing Frank?
Hey, how you doing Keith?
What's going on?
Do you know Ben Stein Bauer?
No, I don't.
I was just snow treating you right now.
I'm freezing.
I hate it.
I'm doing great.
So Frank, we're here at the2025 Sundance Film Festival.
(11:45):
Tell us, uh, what, what, how'sSundance been for you so far?
I
just got off the plane.
We're already having a lunch, and,uh, did this meeting have some films?
I'm gonna see, I'm in a film.
I'm in premieres tomorrow night.
Fred, what
is the, like, like what's the valueof a film festival in 2025, do
you think?
I got a lot of answers for that,but the one right off the bat I'll
(12:05):
say is in-person connectivity.
You know, if more thanever everything is virtual.
So to be able to actually.
Be in a space with people and connect, andI think it gives it kind of a, a thrill
that's been missing for a while, you know?
Do you have any tips for firsttime filmmakers who are, you
know, about to send their filmsoff to their first festival?
(12:25):
Yeah.
I mean, it's tough.
I, I would say.
Do research on festivals.
You know, not, not every film is rightfor every festival, you know, and
don't be afraid of the regional fest.
I, I think that's where the heartof, of indie film really lies.
I mean, the first festival outside ofDallas that took one of my films was
Sidewalk in Birmingham, and that wasthe biggest deal in the world to me.
Getting into that festival.
(12:47):
I mean, it changed everything.
Having a film outside of my homestate, it felt like I was a real.
Filmmaker, you
know?
Right, right, right.
It's a big step.
So it's, it's the validation.
Validation and then alsoknowing that it's a long game.
Just keep making stuff with yourcommunity and let the community
expand, you know, hope for the best.
Amen.
I think that's great.
It's, uh, it's good to see, Frank.
(13:08):
You too.
Uh, Frank's got a premiere here.
He is an actor.
He's a lead in, uh, in a filmpremiering in the next category.
What does that mean next?
It is a, a category supposedly reservedfor films that are boundary pushing,
either in form content or both.
Um, and you know, the, you seea range of films in there that
(13:29):
usually a little more adventurous.
I wouldn't say experimental, butthey definitely take some risks.
And what's the film called?
Oex.
OBEX.
Oex.
Yeah.
Nice.
All
right.
Lookback.
Oh, look out for Oex.
Look out for opex.
Alright.
Excellent Frank.
Cool.
This is good.
Good.
Meet your, you too.
Yeah, thanks for doing this.
I'll be, you know,
(13:49):
we'll, we'll see eachother wandering around.
Awesome.
All See you about 18.
I'll see you.
Should we try and hop on one of thesebuses or do you wanna just walk back?
I don't mind walking.
It's up to you.
I
don't, yeah, I don't mind walking.
Let's get her, let's get her steps in.
Okay.
Louis has like,
excuse me.
I see you have a badge on.
Uh, yeah.
And tell us what's going onhere and what you're up to.
(14:10):
Just enjoying the festival, man.
Having fun, you know,seeing all the movies.
Are you a, are you a filmmaker?
Uh, yeah, but I'm just here volunteering.
Oh, you are?
Oh, you're a volunteer.
Okay.
What's the volunteerexperience at Sundance?
Um, awesome man.
Everyone's reallyfriendly and really nice.
Yeah,
really.
Is this your first year
at Sundance?
Yeah,
it is.
Okay.
It's a lot of fun, man.
You guys should see some
phelp.
You look like you got a place to go.
(14:30):
You're trying to get out of this.
Yeah.
We're going to sea somestuff there you guys.
What are you doing here at the festival?
Uh, I'm actually skiingand snowboarding, so.
Oh, so you're not evenhere to see the movies?
Yeah.
Oh, amazing.
Is this your first time at Sundance?
Yeah.
Ah, mine too.
Awesome.
How's it going for you so far?
We just got here, we just paid60 bucks to park, so hopefully,
Hey,
it's fun.
(14:50):
You're
here.
You made it.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Have a blast, man.
Thanks a lot.
Okay.
Do you see who I see coming up the road?
Is that Conan O'Brien?
I think that's Conan O'Brien.
Let's go see if we can go
Conan.
Look out for the ice.
Look out for the ice.
Look out for the ice.
I, we will look out for the ice.
Thank you.
There it goes.
Conan O'Brien.
So tell me who you are and,uh, what you're doing here.
(15:10):
My name's So Haki, um, I'mdirector, producer, editor of Rocks.
And how do you pronounce your name?
You look like you, Ahmad.
Reza A. Okay.
I'm Iranian.
Iranian.
Okay.
Awesome.
And what film are
you here with?
Ti
Through
Rock.
Oh, awesome.
And, uh, tell me what the film is about.
So, cutting through rocks takesplace in the northwest of Iran.
(15:31):
It's in a very patriarchal setting,but that's where we meet, uh, our
lead character, who in the past she'sbeen a midwife and delivered 400 kids.
So now the story starts with herwanting to run for a council seat.
That sounds fascinating.
Yeah.
And so is this yourfirst time at Sundance?
Yes, it's our first time here.
(15:52):
How has the festival been for you so far?
It's good.
It's very nice just talking chatteringwith people, other filmmakers and also,
you know, because we finished a filmrecently, so we also carry on the, the
burden of emotionally, the burden offinishing the film, the story that we
(16:13):
spent seven years of our lives there.
So being here is just, for me, it's amix of a lot of feelings of happiness.
Just the feeling of completion andalso a little bit, maybe sadness or,
you know, saying goodbye to project.
(16:35):
Right?
Yeah.
It's like a birth.
You, you birth it into the world andnow what happens is not up to you.
That's complete.
It's a new journey.
It's completely a new journey.
What do you think about, uh, yourchances of selling your documentary,
the documentary market in general?
What are your thoughts about that?
Well, you know, I, I know, uh, andthis is something we've been told.
Over and over again that this is notparticularly the best market, uh,
(16:58):
over the past, uh, years, especiallyafter Covid or even prior to Covid.
But, uh, we made this film havingthat knowledge already because for
us, more than selling or buying,Edward is about telling the story.
So it's not necessarily about what happenshere monetarily, it's about that you made
(17:20):
the film and that you told the story thatyou want to tell and that you get it out
in the world as a, as a gift in a way.
Yes.
But, but we all feel also having thisoptimism that even though it took a
long time to be here today, we have, uh.
Feeling that it will find itsaudience, it will find its
(17:40):
sales team when it's meant to.
Well, I hope it does.
Good luck.
Thank you so much.
Well, you guys are great.
Yes sir. Thank you for the time.
I really appreciate it.
Appreciate the time.
Uh, good luck with the premiereand I can't wait to see the movie.
Awesome.
Alright, bye-bye.
Okay, so that was.
Mohammed, Reza a, I think I'msaying that right, and Sarah Cocky.
They are the directors and producers ofcutting through Rocks, the Iranian film,
(18:04):
and what a cool way to have met them.
We were literally standing inline for a cup of coffee at the
Adobe house, and uh, I went over.
And just struck up a conversation.
And lo and behold, thereare doc filmmakers here from
Iran International World Premier, and Idon't know what Sarah had to say about,
you know, I think we've, we focus a loton like what's the marketplace, but you
(18:27):
know, Sarah reminds us like this firstand foremost as storytellers, our job.
Is to get these stories out thereand to connect with audiences.
And that's, you know, the, what they'rehoping happens with cutting through rocks.
I don't know.
Um,
and, and they worked on it for10 years and there was this
kind of twinkle in their eye.
They were so excited to be, uh,showing their film here and finally
getting it out in the world.
(18:47):
So to talk about it like a birth,that was, that was really cool.
Yeah.
Let's talk to some other folks.
My name is Paul Vez.
I'm a director of photographyon the film, the Librarians.
And, um, we're very happyto premiere at Sundance.
It's a huge, huge accomplishment becausethe movie was literally finished five days
(19:08):
ago and you're hot exported, and you're
basically, I'm talking toyou right after the premiere.
Right?
We
premiered at the Ray.
Wow.
We had a huge turnout.
Like what is it that you get out ofbeing at a festival like Sundance?
Um.
Yeah, that's a great question.
I mean, I think the goal for anyfilmmaker is to meet other filmmakers
and to collaborate with other filmmakers.
(19:28):
Um, we are working in a documentaryworld, which is underfunded.
Political things are very hard tosell, especially now, Netflix, HBO.
Nobody wants to buy a really highlypolitical movie, so being in a
space like Sundance is like a wayto connect to the rest of the world.
Well, congrats man.
This is really huge.
I'm so excited to seeyou here bumping you.
This is like why people come to.
(19:50):
This, you know, this festival,like you live in New York.
We work together on a commercial.
Yes.
I live in Austin.
Like we wouldn't get achance to overlap really.
And so it was amazing to see you and youworked on the film that my buddy edited.
Yep.
So I love it.
This is, this world's colliding.
Uh, who are you andwhat are you doing here
at Sun?
My name is Angelan.
I'm a social mediamanager for a foundation.
(20:11):
Um, and I'm here to documentthe Sundance experience for said
Foundation because we support.
Independent documentary filmmaking,participatory civic media journalism
and things of that nature.
And is the question, what are mythoughts on the state of it today?
Well, actually you're a very interestingperson to talk to because you are so
plugged into social media, and I think abig part of what's challenging documentary
(20:34):
viewership right now is social media.
So how do you think social media ischallenging documentary and changing it?
I
think the same way that social mediakind of made everyone a journalist, it
enabled everyone to be a documentarianto not even just like cinema, um,
necessarily just real time coverage ofevents that are happening in South Korea.
(20:54):
Like there's martial law happening.
People who are in the DemocraticRepublic of Congo talking about
the way that mining for minerals isimpacting their local population.
So I think anyone who has a storyto tell has the means to do so.
Um.
It.
Yeah.
And so that democratization of media isgreat on the one hand, but then on the
other hand, if everybody's scrollingthrough TikTok and not watching longer
(21:15):
form narratives, that also feels likethere's something missing or that
that's like maybe not a positive, right?
It is a trade off, and I thinkthat maybe the storytellers have
to decide what's more important.
Is it awareness?
Is it a call to action?
Is it.
Considering something in a differentperspective that might actually require
more detailed storytelling and youflatten it in 30 seconds or 90 seconds
(21:38):
and you don't want to go that route.
I think all that's valid.
Yeah.
What are you excited about for 2025when you look at like the landscape
of what's coming, what you do fora living, and what matters to the,
the people that you work with?
When seismic shifts happen and thesocial media space, and we get it
riles up everyone, not even justpeople who are creators, but people
who are also consumers feel likethey have a stake in, in the concept
that they're consuming and the.
(21:59):
The content moderation, the policies,they're upset about the algorithm.
Like everyone getsreally, really in on it.
And it kind of feels like, to me, likethat collective evers essence when people
have a, when there's the lottery andit's like a really, really high jackpot.
It's just everyone's, everyonewants to buy a ticket, even if
they know they're not gonna win.
So that's why I feel about socialmedia is like, even if you're not
a concert creator, like you'restill, you're still in on it.
You're in the game.
And I'm excited towitness that excitement.
(22:22):
That's a great answer.
Oh, here comes Russell.
Wayne Groves right here.
What's up buddy?
Russell's a an executive producer.
Producer.
Done all kinds of award-winningmoneymaking documentaries.
How's life?
Well, we're here at theSundance Film Festival.
Yeah.
What do you do?
Do you know Keith Maitland?
Keith, this is Russell.
I know of Keith.
You know, same.
I've heard your name so many times andwe have a lot of friends in common.
(22:43):
Yeah.
You look like you are not wearingnear the amount of layers that we are.
And I'm freezing in all this, in all this.
Pretty good.
So, are you here to catch movies?
To set
meetings, to do a little fundraising
or what?
I never come to to watch movies.
I come to meet withpeople, talk about stuff.
I'm really interested intwo things in particular.
What is the state of distribution in salesin this business for indies in particular,
(23:07):
which is a disaster area in my opinion.
Uh, but I'm just curious kinda wherethings are headed just based upon from
sales, talking to submarine, talking to X,Y, Z, and talking to other distributors.
And then on the financing side, tryingto curate what is a pathway that is a
feasible pathway that mitigates riskfor investors, but also curates the
(23:29):
best approach since you could makeconsistent films and not have to worry
about doing a startup every single time.
Every time.
That's a great way to put it.
Those are the things I'm trying to crack.
Yeah, that's a great way to say it.
This is my first time ever coming toSundance, really, and I've fought it.
To me, I fought it my whole career.
I was a snob about it.
I didn't want to comeunless I had a movie here.
(23:50):
Okay.
And Keith and I started doingthis podcast and he convinced
me, yeah, the time is now.
You gotta put that shitaway and come up here.
And I have to say, so far everythingyou're describing is my experience.
I just getting to meet with people and I'm
curious to see what the fireshave done to attendance.
It's a tragedy and I, you can'tdiscount the fact that it's gonna
(24:11):
have some kind of material effect.
I am hopeful if there's a silver liningthat people are a little bit more open
and emotional and willing to talk aboutthings, and maybe it's a little bit
less crowded so you can actually havesome discussions with some people.
But, but I'm looking atit positive either way.
You have to, you gotta, youhave to be a hopeless optimist
to, to be in this business.
(24:31):
Yeah.
And sometimes that's difficult to find.
Well, I did say hopeless.
Yeah,
exactly.
Hopelessness is certainly there.
What are you looking to getout of, uh, coming to Sundance?
Um, we out here at Sundance, you know,everybody's out here enjoying themselves.
Unfortunately, I gotta work, but I'm gladto be here and be able to meet people
like y'all and just share the good vibes.
(24:52):
What y'all are,
you, you do have some good vibes.
Yeah,
thanks.
I think very vibe.
Yeah.
What are you doing right now?
Like what, what's your jobthat you're doing here?
Um, so right now we're just facilitatingparking and making sure nobody comes with
their car and try to ram people over.
Thank you.
You know what I mean?
Thank you for
your service.
Absolutely.
But if everybody, everybodycould check out my, my music.
I'm on YouTube, uh, chosen afew productions chosen, gore
(25:15):
chosen with the Z-C-H-O-Z-E-N.
I'd appreciate it.
Just to give you guys alittle tidy sneak peek.
It's something light like, whydon't you, oh, that was horrible.
Take, try that again.
Take time.
Try that again.
Try that again.
I want a coach.
How about a coach?
She wanted Birkins.
(25:36):
Everyone said she wasn't worth it.
If all in the club twerking shewas working made me nervous.
She was lurking.
She wanted Birkins shout outto all my homies locked up and
all the people in the struggle.
I feel like there's something hugegoing on in the world and there's an
enlightening process happening andI think if all of us together as a
using, as a unit and a collective startlooking at our differences and what we
(26:00):
have in common, we can go a long ways.
I feel like there'sgonna be a great reset.
You know, so what areyou guys out here doing?
This is a documentary with stuff.
We are,
uh, we're, we're documentary filmmakerswho happen to be, uh, moonlighting right
now as podcasters wandering the streets.
Probably not to get hit by the UPS truck.
Yeah.
Look out this guy's coming throughand, uh, we saw you over here.
(26:22):
I don't know.
We, we were feeling the good vibe.
Something drew us overand I'm glad we did.
Absolutely chosen
glory.
See, chose ZEA with amillion dollar smile, man.
Keep smiling.
All, all right.
Thank you.
Thanks a lot.
Bless y'all.
All right, you too.
Uh, excuse me, sir, whatis your favorite bird?
Stop.
See, that guy just sailed on by.
(26:42):
Ooh.
Like, like he was conO'Brien or something.
Excuse me.
Con O'Brien, what is your favorite bird?
Look out for the ice.
Watch out for that eagle.
I,
excuse me.
Hi,
how is Sance treating you?
That's great.
Yeah, it's wonderful.
Yeah, we're film here, so it's.
(27:02):
Couldn't be any better.
Speak to me about that film.
It's a feature film documentary aboutthis competitive high school speech and
debate tournament that is nationwide,and we followed five incredibly talented
seniors all the way through entire schoolyear to the final tournament that it
happens every year with up to 10,000 kids.
Beautiful.
(27:22):
It's an incredible experiencebecause it really gives you hope for
the future once you see that film.
Incredible.
We need that right now.
Congratulations.
What's your role in the film?
What's your name?
I was producer.
I'm Christophe.
And also cinematographer on it.
All right.
Producer and cinematographer
getting little insights into this filmthroughout the process because our
good friend Oay Ed was your composer.
Oay Iss the best.
(27:43):
He really, oay is the best.
I did see, uh, you know, a bunch of cutsobviously, but really once his music
one day and they just kind of blew.
Yeah, it really blew.
There's like an unbelievable thing.
Yeah, that's great.
That's, so you
had a great premiere.
Had a great premiere.
Yep.
What are you hoping for next?
What are the next steps forspeed for, uh, festival,
festival festivals, but also when wewanna, we wanted the film to get out
(28:04):
there because it is the film thatfeels so much more important than
it even felt like two months ago.
And this is kind of one of theseantidotes because those kids, you can
tell, call you kids, students, almostin adults, you know, but they're 17.
But they are the future and, andthey, they will be fighting for
it and everybody should see it.
(28:26):
Yeah.
Alright.
And do you have distribution already?
Not yet.
We're looking, but we had a ton of peoplethere and people seem to really love
it, so we really, really optimistic.
Excellent.
Great.
Optimistic, there's that word again.
He's optimistic.
I know.
Hey,
well, since you're hitting oneof our main themes is optimism.
Yeah.
I also need to know Christophe.
Yeah.
What is your favorite bird?
My favorite bird.
(28:46):
I love a blue jay.
I love Blue Jay.
I love blue.
And you know blue.
Well
look at those beautiful blue eyes.
You have Christ off.
Yeah,
that's right.
Exactly right.
That's a perfect match, right?
There we go.
Um,
what do you think?
I think, you know, after first day ofSundance, what struck with me is there's
(29:08):
a real community vibe here in Park Cityand our instinct that this would be a
great way to start off the calendar year,give a little inspiration to kind of.
Fill our cup and driveforward, I think bears out.
I think we're not theonly ones thinking that.
Uh, it seems like everybody I spoketo was really excited and optimistic
about the future.
(29:29):
That should be the nameof the, of this episode.
Yes.
Hopeless Optimist.
You can sort of look at it either way.
Are you hopeless or are you an optimist,or are you a hopeless optimist?
And I think in order to do thiswork, you have to be two of those.
Three.
You have to be optimistic at minimum.
Hopelessly optimistic at most.
(29:50):
And if you're hopeless, you're notgonna get very far making documentaries.
Excuse me.
Is this Jessica Wolfson?
This has been
five hours.
Hi.
Hey friend.
How's it going?
Good.
Look at us in Park City.
Look at you, doc Walking.
I know.
This is great.
This is your first time at Sundance.
This is my first time at Sundance.
I feel very much likeI'm crashing the party.
(30:10):
I feel like an imposterand I really hate it.
No you shouldn't.
Just because you don't have a filmerdoes not mean you don't have to be here.
This is a community of people.
You should go and MOUs while you
Yeah.
Um, but you guys are comingto my weird house party.
We are today.
I'll be honest.
I'll
be on the later side.
Okay.
Can we bring some folks?
Is that all right?
Please?
Yeah.
See
you guys later.
Producer podcast for us.
Um,
(30:33):
okay.
That was great.
I do wanna say like, we'regetting long in the day here, but.
I see an old friendwalking down the street.
Um, I'm gonna just grab her and see ifshe'll talk to us or do you know Sue Kim?
I don't.
Okay.
So I met Sue in 2008.
We were both pretty early in our careers.
(30:53):
She has had a phenomenalrun as a producer.
I know she made Hale County this morning.
Um, the tube of Thieves.
Midnight Traveler, um, I think she hadlast year, I think for hidden letters.
And the thing I love aboutSue more than anything is that
she always tells him straight.
Great, let's talk to her.
Yeah,
we're walking down the streetand who do I look up and see?
(31:14):
But Sue Kim Superstar inthe documentary community.
Sundance Stalwart.
Did we meet back in 2008at the Producers Academy?
Mm-hmm.
I feel like I've known youforever and that makes sense.
'cause that was basically thebeginning of, of everything for me.
Same for you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, Sue, this is Ben Steinhower.
Hi Sue.
So nice to meet you.
I shake your hand, but uh, my hand Iunderstand is holding a microphone.
(31:35):
Um,
so we're just walking around.
Uh, we have a little podcastthat we're trying to get started
called Doc Walks, where we go onwalks and talk to doc filmmakers.
And, uh, here we are walking aroundMain Street and we saw you and
we thought, let's talk to Sue.
Is that cool?
What are we gonna talk about?
Let's talk about ducks, let'stalk about documentaries.
Let's, yeah.
Are you here at the festival of the film?
No, no film this year I came,um, 'cause I wanted to see films.
(31:58):
Yeah.
And has that been working out?
Have you been able to see stuff?
I don't know.
Like I, I schedule things too tightlyand so I, I haven't seen it as
many films as wanted to, but morethan when I'm here with the film.
Yeah.
What have you seen thatyou've loved so far?
I don't know.
You know, I haven't had enoughtime to process because it's
kind of a spectrum like I.
You know, need to like watchthings and then think about it.
(32:20):
And I haven't really had achance to think about it.
Gotcha.
What are you thinking aboutwhen you look at the documentary
marketplace as a producer?
Mm-hmm.
As somebody who is working as anindependent, um, what does the
world look like for you for 2025?
Um, I think it's a reallychallenging marketplace right now.
(32:41):
I think the big thing that.
The big funder for documentaries,you know, we both know, it's
like been public television.
Yeah.
And then with like the new administration,like all of that seems very up in the air.
And so then if you look at likecommercial, uh, entities that may
purchase or um, commission films, Ithink that they're also like, they're
not producing the kind of filmsthat probably you and I are making.
(33:03):
Yeah.
So I think it's, um,it's different, you know?
You know, it's really interesting'cause when I first started, people
always said to me how hard it was.
When people say that now, but Ifeel like the heart is just, it's
not a measure, it's just different.
Yeah.
I, I think like the one thingabout being an indie filmmaker,
I've learned to be resilient.
Yes.
You have to.
Right?
And one of the things that, uh, keepscoming up when we talk to people
(33:26):
is the idea of being hopelesslyoptimistic and that that's what gets
you started doing this work and youhave, Sue doesn't agree with that.
What do you think, sir?
I don't, I don't agree with that.
Oh,
tell me why.
I
think I have, like, I try tohave realistic goals about
the things that I'm doing.
Like, um, because if youdon't have realistic goals,
you set yourself up to fail.
And I'm really, I don't wannasee anything I'm working on fail.
(33:46):
So I, I try to be realistic andreally, you know, look at what I'm
working on and what what's out there.
And then really have a plan for thatparticular project that works for that
project based on the goals of the team.
So
that is spoken like a true producer.
That p pragmatic is all Get out, Su
No, but otherwise, you know, it, itleaves people in a place where they
(34:08):
feel like they failed and that it'sreally hard to get yourself back up.
Yeah, I think that's right.
He is making up.
Um, well we are aboutto head into this party.
Sue's gonna join us, so we're gonnawrap it up here, but there's a million
more questions I'd love to ask you.
Are you planning on gonnasouth by, by any chance?
No,
no.
I'm gonna Berlin.
Oh, good for you.
Oh, that's a good Sue.
As a foam goer.
I have very good friends there.
Awesome.
Cool.
(34:29):
Okay, awesome.
Well that was Sue.
What did I tell you?
She tells it like it is.
She
tells it like it is.
I feel, uh, like she slapped me inthe face with some wisdom and Well,
you know, I mean, I feel like we'vebeen talking about optimism and
most of the folks that we've talkedto today, whether they're other
filmmakers or old friends of ours fromAustin that we bumped into here, like
(34:50):
everybody's been in a pretty good mood.
Everybody's been pretty optimistic.
We've been talking aboutoptimism and so we slide that
line to Sue, I think you said.
What did you say?
Uh, you have to be a hopeless optimistto do this work, and Sue just,
just smacked that right back down.
And she said, no, you gotta keep it real.
Mm-hmm.
You gotta keep it real.
Ben Stein Bower.
And I like the, I, her conclusionabout that makes a lot of sense to
(35:11):
me, which is that if you have inflatedexpectations, then you're setting
yourself up for disappointment.
And I can, I can get with that.
I understand what she's saying andyou know, I think it's a. It's kind
of dependent on your personality.
Like do you, um, imagine great thingsand you're striving for this like kind of
brighter future all the time, or are youthinking, you know, the, there's a sort of
(35:36):
realistic life that this is going to haveand that way you don't set yourself up
for the lows of not reaching that sort of
fast high.
Yeah.
One, that's the things you can't.
You can't get hung up on thehopeless optimism because coupled
with that optimism has to comea lot of real work, right?
Like real decision making, real work.
(35:57):
You're still budgeting, you'restill cold calling, you're
still pounding the pavement.
Yeah.
Uh, and, and it is a lot of workand it's a lot of time and you
have to be a force of nature.
And so maybe it's instead ofhopeless, maybe it's hopeful.
Okay.
Hopeful and
hopeful
optimist.
Hopeful optimist.
Yeah.
I know Sue is pragmatic and she is, uh,focused, focused, optimist, hopeful.
(36:19):
Pragmatist, foist.
Uh, we are not sure what you have tobe, but uh, I know that Ben is cold.
I'm freezing.
Can we please go inside?
And so this has been, uh, thedock walks live at Sundance.
Experience.
Um.
Tomorrow's day two.
We've got some interviews lined up.
(36:40):
Uh, I'm hoping maybe we could see a movie.
Um, you know.
No, we're not here for movies.
We're here to walk and dock.
That's right.
Alright, doc.
Walking the day away into the night.
Uh, for Ben Stower.
Steinhower, I'm Keith Mayen.
Easy for you to say.
Uh, alright.
Alright.
Until next time.
Okay.
Thanks everybody.
Bye.
(37:03):
Next time on Doc Walks,
we are going to talk to AcademyAward nominated producer Diane Kwan,
who made one of my favoritedocumentaries Minding the Gap,
and very excited to talk to her.
This is where you say,so stay tuned, everybody.
I say that.
(37:24):
Yeah.
Well, you
just said it, so I think we're covered.
Okay.
Thanks everybody.
Do you feel like that's good?
I think so.
Dock Walks is created, produced,and edited by my friend Ben
Stein, Bower of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend Keith
Maitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
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