May 15, 2025 • 35 mins
Back from Sundance and inspired by Diane Quon’s email to Morgan Neville, Ben & Keith discuss the impact of seeking career guidance in their early days as doc-makers. Join us for a walk around Austin’s Ladybird Lake and a lively conversation about outreach and insights for aspiring and established documentary filmmakers alike.
00:00 Starting the Journey: Back to Where It All Began
00:14 Post-Sundance Reflections and Illness
01:18 Networking at Sundance: Strategies and Insights
02:36 The Power of Reaching Out: Diane Quon's Story
04:46 Personal Experiences: Seeking Advice from Filmmakers
07:26 Wise Words from Albert Maysles: Love Your Subject
10:38 Exploring Austin: The Bat Bridge and New Projects
17:44 Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers: Practical Tips
19:41 The Power of Encouragement
21:07 Seeking Advice and Building Relationships
23:36 The Importance of Community
30:35 Practical Tips for Aspiring Filmmakers
33:44 Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, here we areback where it all began.
Walking along the hiking bike trail.
That's Lady Bird Lake over my leftshoulder, and that's downtown Austin.
And that is Keith Maitland, that's me.
And I am Ben Steinbauer, that's him.
And we are on a walk here, as Keith said,around downtown Austin Post Sundance,
(00:22):
where, uh, I got very, very sick and got
sick.
I
got
sick,
you know, and it.
Um, I think we got sick at the sametime because we were at all the same
parties and then we commuted togetherto the airport in a small car.
And the interesting thing thoughis that Sally O'Grady, who was
(00:44):
there with us, did not get sick.
Did Amy get sick?
Amy Bench.
And I don't think Amy got sick.
Did Oe Esid get sick?
I don't think Oe got sick.
Did Conan O'Brien get sick?
Well.
He's been sick.
Well, he was sick of us, so ittook one second to to set in.
I see what you did there.
I like it.
(01:06):
On your left,
you're listening to DocWalk with Ben and Keith.
Lemme tell you one of my favoritethings about going to Sundance,
and this is the best part about it.
You don't even have to goto Sundance to do this.
Yes, what?
Get sick.
(01:27):
If you take a look at who's gonna beat Sundance, producers, distributors,
financiers, and you reach out kindalast minute, say four days before the
festival kicks off and you send thema little note uhhuh, it says, Hey,
saw you're gonna be in Park City.
I'm gonna be in Park City too.
Should we meet for a coffee?
(01:48):
Almost 100% of those people will say no.
Because they're already too busy withtheir tight pack schedules, they'll
say, you know what, I'm pretty busy.
I'm sure I'll bump into you there, butlet's set a zoom for the next week.
Ah, interesting.
So do you have a lot ofzooms that work scheduled?
I'm,
yeah.
I'm, I'm gonna be zooming up the next,the next two weeks really, I, I use
(02:09):
Sundance as an opportunity to kindof reconnect with some financiers.
I met with an agent who repsa subject I'm looking at,
oh, sorry.
Excuse me.
And, uh.
But yeah, my dance card is, is, is gettinglocked in for the next couple weeks.
That's a fantastic use of Sundance.
And also, one might argue a great segueinto what we're gonna talk about today.
(02:33):
What has that been?
I'm so glad you asked Keith.
It's, uh, inspired by Diane Quan.
We are gonna talk about theimportance of reaching out to
other filmmakers, getting advice.
Advice often tastes better in the
mouth than it tastes in the ear.
A wise man once said, is that a, a thing?
I haven't heard that saying.
I think I wrote that in a script once along time ago, but now I can't remember
(02:56):
if I got that out of like a book ofquotes or I made that quote up myself.
What does that quote mean?
It sounds a little gross, tastes betterin the mouth and it tastes in the air
that the advice giver, I think, sometimesenjoys advice more than the advice hearer.
I see.
Is that what that means?
I
see.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's a, that, thatinterpretation makes more sense.
Yes.
Um, back at Sundance.
(03:18):
We had a nice long formchat with Diane Kwan.
Mm-hmm.
And she told us that when she wasgetting started, the first thing
she did was send off an email toa filmmaker that inspired her.
And that was Morgan Nevillewith 20 feet from stardom.
Yep.
And she just said, HeyMorgan, you don't know me.
(03:40):
I am getting started as a documentaryproducer, kind of late in life,
and I could use some advice.
On how to get the ball rolling.
And miraculously, he wrote her back a verythoughtful email, and I say miraculous
because he's the guy who's winning Oscars.
He's juggling multiple projects,he's working with celebrities.
(04:00):
You would think that somebody at hislevel might not take the time to respond
to an email from an aspiring filmmakerlooking for advice, and it's heartwarming
and encouraging to hear that he didrespond and he responded thoughtfully.
Yeah, it was Morgan's responsethat that spurred Diane on.
And uh, and then she
(04:21):
went on to produce an Academy Awardnominated documentary that, uh, helped
the director deal with his grief andmoved a lot of the audience who saw it.
So, you know, his.
This, the what you hear about likea butterfly's wings, making ripples
that then affect lots of other things.
And that's to me a great exampleof the power of documentary.
(04:43):
The power of community, whichwe were gonna talk about today.
Well, listening to Diane talk abouther outreach made me wonder, Ben,
about you and was there a time thatyou can recall reaching out for advice?
Absolutely.
And how'd it go?
Well, so when I was an undergraduateat the University of Kansas, um, I was
(05:03):
studying film after being a creativewriter, a creative writing major,
and I had no idea how to get started.
I mean, me coming from Kansas, whereI was born, in Oklahoma, where I was
raised, I knew no one who was a filmmaker.
And, you know, choosing to do thatjob was almost like saying I wanted
to be an astronaut or something.
Like, it just didn't feel possible.
(05:26):
Um, and so one of my professors at KUrecommended that we reach out to people
that we admire and other filmmakers whosework we might wanna make something like.
And I wrote to, to three directors.
I wrote to Albert Maisels, I wrote toRoss Mcoe and I wrote to Les Blank.
(05:47):
And that right there shows you my sortof love of like, uh, sort of indie.
Uh, documentary.
Yeah.
And so they, all three wrote me back.
And for me in my early twenties, it wasreally inspiring and, uh, motivating.
And I got a camera and I went outand I made my first documentary.
(06:11):
And I remember Albert Maysles said thatthe thing that I should do is find,
uh, a subject that I had access to.
And to film that person with love inmy heart, to basically like love my
subject and give them the opportunityto like show their best self.
(06:33):
And then Ross McElwee wrote methis very poetic postcard, which
essentially said he quoted Wordsworthand he said the edge of meaning never
lies far from personal experience.
Meaning make a film about somethingyou have access to, something that
(06:53):
you know well, something that isgoing on with you in your life.
And, um, as big a fan as I amof Les Blank, and I would go
on to meet him years later.
I don't actually remember whathe, okay, what he said back to me.
Uh, but I do know that he respondedon like flower film's letterhead.
And I do have it in a notebook, butI can't recall what exactly he said.
(07:16):
But those three people did respond and it.
Uh, and I've always remembered that.
And so anytime somebody reaches outto me and asking for advice, I make
sure to take the time to respond.
I love what Albert Maiselshas to say there, and the
idea of treating your subject withlove, loving your subject, you know,
(07:36):
building empathy, finding common ground.
Um, yeah, in a sense, I think it's likebaked into to the concept of wanting to
point a camera at somebody, but it's easy.
To, uh, to forget that sometimes.
Absolutely.
Especially when you'rethinking about what's fundable?
How do I make money?
Uh, what will my, I dunno, agent be ableto take around town and, uh, get companies
(08:03):
interested in, in, uh, financing.
It's, you know, it, it canvery quickly tip over into more
of a financial consideration.
And it's important tokeep, for me at least.
To remember what it is thatmotivated me to start making
documentaries in the first place.
And here we should stop and get apicture of where we are right now.
(08:25):
This is incredibly beautiful.
This is downtown Austin, and we areright here on the hike and bike trail
in front of the pontoon party boatsthat you can rent to take out for
your next bachelor bachelorette party.
(08:45):
Or maybe the next duck walkscreative colloquium on the lake.
There we go.
There we go.
I was gonna say, um, uh, what,what do you call those at work?
Where you go out and you bond and you dotrust falls and you, uh, people with jobs
know the answer to, to that question.
I've never had that.
(09:05):
We did have a Go Valleycompany picnic recently.
They're a company retreat.
That's what I'm looking for.
Alright, so Albert Maisel's advice.
Is, uh, easy to take toheart, exciting to implement.
Can be challenging when you'resubject halfway through the process.
Maybe isn't giving you what you, uh,thought they were gonna give you or isn't
(09:27):
cooperating with your shoot schedule or,
yes.
Throwing
some curve
balls
Yes.
At the, at you.
But you know, the thing about documentary,which I, I know, you know, is that
you give up so much control when, ifyou're doing it right, in my opinion.
Because the story presentsitself to you at a certain point.
Like you can try to wrestle it intothe form you think it should take, but
(09:50):
ultimately you're a gardener and not acarpenter where you let the story sort
of blossom the character, kind of lead,uh, where the story's going instead of
trying to hammer them into a narrative.
And, uh, that's how I've always approachedfilms and I love movies that take me.
(10:10):
For a ride as an audiencemember, and I always aspire to
do that in any movie I make.
You're a gardener, not a carpenter.
Not a
carpenter.
My work has a fair amountof carpentry in it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, there's, there's some structuraldecision making and some scaffolding
that's often built, uh, tocreate creative boundaries, but
I think you're absolutely right.
You're cultivating a garden, right?
(10:31):
You're planting seeds andthen watching them grow.
You're watering some and weeding others.
Where
are we
at here, Ben?
We
are walking underneath whatis known as the Bat bridge.
The Bat bridge, which is whereall of the bats live and fly out.
Uh, at Sundown and tourists come tostand on top of this bridge to watch
(10:55):
all the bats fly into the sunset, um,to go and eat mosquitoes, hopefully.
And here we are.
We're walking the trail, right?
Underneath this iconic Congressthree bridge here in Austin.
This is a perfect opportunity for me toannounce a project that I am working on.
(11:19):
We've never talked about before.
No, I'm not in, uh, the roleof, of the director on this one.
I am a, uh, I'm a creative consultantand my company is providing some
services and I think there's achance I'll be doing some, uh, second
unit directing on some recreations.
But I am working with filmmakerSkip Hobby, to make the definitive
(11:41):
Austin Bats documentary.
No way.
Yeah.
How cool is that?
Yeah.
Skip Hobby is, uh, the world'sgreatest bat photographer.
He is a cinematographer who has beenshooting, um, with, with dozens of
types of bats on multiple continentsfor National Geographic for years.
Wow.
Speaking
of having love in your heart for somethingthat you film, this guy must clearly love.
(12:05):
Bats in order to go allover the world filming them.
Yeah, so Skip Hobby is, uh, has beencamped out underneath that bridge,
filming the bats as they emerge fromtheir, their sleep each night at dusk.
He shoots on a phantom, youknow, at 500 frames a second.
Wow.
The footage is just outstanding.
(12:26):
Um, working with Hillary Pierce,who was a supervising producer on a
couple of my films a few years ago.
Has been working with Maisie Crow onher films and Ben Masters on his films.
And that's a project that beganjust a year ago at the stuck on, on
uh, wisteria party where somebodyjust skipped to me and he asked if
(12:49):
he could ask for, uh, some advice.
Wow.
And
so through giving advice to anaspiring filmmaker or in this
PO case, a pretty establishedcinematographer, it sounds like you.
Got to get involved with the project
yourself.
He wanted to get together and talk aboutstory, talk about bringing the past into
(13:10):
the present as far as turning back thehands of time through archival footage.
Mm-hmm.
Potentially recreation, potentiallyanimation, all the different kind of
tools at, at our disposal and what startedout and could have just easily been,
you know, one coffee between colleagues.
Has turned into, uh, a collaboration anda, and a friendship and, um, and a project
(13:32):
I'm really excited about because the storyof the Bats who live under the Congress
Avenue Bridge is a great story and it'sone of the best stories of our town.
That's awesome.
Okay.
We have found ourselves just east ofdowntown on the south side of Lady Bird
Lake on the relatively new floatingboardwalk section of the trail.
(13:55):
This feels.
Like the perfect placeto do a little something.
Ben likes to call circle of confusion.
Are you ready, Ben?
I'm ready.
Here we go.
Circle of confusion and begin.
You gotta do it too.
Oh, I have to do it too.
I mean, it's only confusing if bothwindows are going at the same time.
Oh, okay.
All right.
Here we go.
Let's not get hit by a jogger.
(14:18):
Circle of confusion.
Whoa, I'm getting dizzy.
Four
function.
Storytelling all mixed up in a blender.
What are we doing?
Turning off the audience?
Undoubtedly,
making Ben very dizzy.
Oh, ooh.
Circle of confusion is gonna makeme, make me barf over the railing.
(14:43):
That's
a different segment of the show.
Tell me a story about you reaching outto somebody when you were first starting.
How did that go?
When I was getting started, I knewI wanted to make a documentary,
and I was fortunate enough tomeet this woman here in Austin.
I was living in New York,but I met her in Austin.
Her name is Lisa McWilliams andshe ran the mobile film school.
I asked her if she had anyadvice for getting started,
(15:06):
and she suggested two things.
She said, look at ITVS.
Go to their website, the independenttelevision service, and take
a look at their open call.
This is a major grant forindependent filmmakers.
Documentary filmmakers who wannaget their work shown on PBS, they
have one of the most complicatedapplication processes out there.
(15:29):
And it covers kind of all the bases ofeverything you need to know about your
project to get other people excited about.
So even if you don't apply, justfamiliarizing yourself with the
requirements of that process
forces you to think through.
It's a big step forward.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Your movie in a way that you probablyaren't doing up to that point.
Exactly.
And then the secondthing she suggested was.
(15:51):
Go to Hot Docs and sit in on the Torontodocumentary forum, which is a pitch forum.
Yeah.
To see what a real pitch looks like.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's hard to wrapyour head around sometimes.
But the way it worked is that, you know,kind of a selected group of filmmakers who
are already at least 20% funded on theirfilm, which is a big hurdle to overcome.
(16:14):
Um, we're presenting theirwork in front of an audience.
To a panel of basically American Idoljudges who were the commissioning editors
of international documentary, um, sales.
Right?
Which at the time was BBC Artes, A TF.
Mm-hmm.
PBS.
And so these are these two pillars of,of, of functional advice that Lisa gave
(16:39):
me was look at ITVS, the independenttelevision service as kind of a.
Foundational grant application thatwould cover all the bases and ask
you all the questions and go to apitch forum, especially a pitch forum
at a high level, and see how otherfilmmakers are presenting their work.
(17:00):
Um,
which is great advice.
So did you take it?
I took both of those.
Yeah.
I mean, I applied for ITVS and, uh,and I didn't get it and I, I reapplied
six months later and I didn't get it.
Yep.
And six months after that, I reapplied.
And I'm not sure if I gotit, but six months after that
I think is when I got it.
I think it took four cycles andwith each of those applications
(17:22):
came a feedback session.
And that's one of the thingsI also love about ITVS.
Ah, interesting.
So, so they said, we're not gonna giveyou the grant, but, and here's why.
Here's why,
here's why.
And here's what you could do tobe more attractive next time.
Because we definitelywant you to resubmit.
We're talking about,
uh, advice that we were given.
Let's talk about advice that we give.
(17:44):
So we are in about the midpoint ofour careers and I think we, it's fair
to say we both have people reachingout to us who are young, aspiring
filmmakers looking for advice.
Yeah.
Knowing that we got such pivotaladvice early on from people we
admired, how do you approachgiving advice to young filmmakers?
Like what do you say when somebody comesup and asks you how to get started?
(18:08):
You want advice to be helpful andyou want it to be constructive
and you want to move.
The conversation forward forthe person you're talking to.
I love to meet with other filmmakersand I love to find out what people are
up to, what projects are going on, andI think usually my advice is spurred
off of asking questions around that.
(18:30):
You know, what are you trying to say?
Where are you trying to land?
Who are you trying to connect with?
So you're going for likepractical, like how can I.
How can I be of most used toyou sort of boots on the ground
like nuts and bolts every day.
I think that's what's missing.
You know, like there's amillion books on productivity.
(18:52):
There's a million books on self-help.
Yeah.
There's a million fortune cookie.
You know, kind of bits of of directionyou can give somebody that say, you know,
be smarter, be better, be more connected.
Right.
And those are all helpful froma big picture point of view.
But when you're just getting started,like what is a fiscal sponsor?
Right,
(19:13):
right,
right.
How do I apply for a grant when itsays you have to be a nonprofit?
I'm not a nonprofit.
Do I have to start a nonprofit?
Yeah.
I mean, I can't tell you how many timesI've had a conversation with somebody
making a first film who just can't figureout how to convert a donation that their
uncle is willing to make for 1500 bucks.
Yeah.
Into time spent on the film.
(19:33):
And so what is a fiscal sponsor?
That's a pretty good place to start.
That's with a brand new filmmaker.
Yeah.
That's great.
And, and see, I, I think.
We differ here because I go for muchmore of the like, rah rah, you can do it.
This is important work.
Keep it up.
Kind of like reason to do it, Ithink is what I, and it's funny, I
(19:57):
think like we probably give advicebased on what we need, right?
Like you like your quote fromearlier, like advice tastes better
in the mouth and sounds in the ear.
I'm probably saying to the people.
Who asked me a version of what Ineed to hear in that moment in a way.
Yeah.
And you know, they maybe so.
(20:17):
Yeah, maybe so.
I mean, I appreciate it.
And if you need that, rah rah, I know thatI'm here for you because you can do it.
Oh, thank you, Kesy.
And I should, I should just begetting my affirmations from you.
I mean, I could text youevery morning if you'd like.
Um, I, there's no, there'snothing wrong with that.
And that's great to get and it,you, we all need that boost.
Yeah.
Um, and I, I think I'm agreeing withyou like oftentimes what I need.
(20:40):
You know, even today and every day,no matter what point of my career
I'm in, is like a clear next move.
Mm-hmm.
That will actually movethe rock up the hill.
Yeah.
You know, a foot or two.
Right.
And oftentimes I know whatthat next move is, but I don't
feel like it is the next move.
And so getting somebody else tosay, make that phone call, reach out
(21:02):
to that funder, set that meeting.
Yep.
You know, ask for advice.
I'll, I'll tell you like one pieceof advice I got a long time ago,
and I don't remember who gave it tome, but I've repeated it a lot, is
if you want,
if you want advice, ask for money.
Yep.
And if you want money, ask for advice.
(21:24):
For advice.
Yep.
Uh, I've heard that a lot too.
That personally hasn't served me'cause I don't fully understand
how, like, how to apply it.
So how, how do you think about that?
Well, I think
it's only half true.
I think if you want advice, ask for money.
It's totally true.
If you ask someone for money, they'regonna tell you what you need to do to make
your project better, different stand out.
(21:46):
So
in other
words, like if you get money fromsomebody, they're going to have notes
and want to be creatively involved.
I think
oftentimes they're gonna giveyou advice and not money.
Um, and that's, I think that'sthe point of the line is like, if
you want advice, ask for money.
'cause that's what you're gonna get.
You're gonna get advice.
Gotcha.
If you want money, ask for advice.
I think it's about cultivating.
(22:06):
Relationships, right?
Mm-hmm.
And it's about letting somebodyknow, I'm not coming at you just
to get into your pocketbook.
I'm coming at you because I appreciateand trust your point of view,
right?
So I'm looking at you as a collaboratorand not just as a financier that I can,
right?
And I think especially when you'regetting started, okay, here's a piece
of advice I think it serves thatit's something that, that ITVS, um,
(22:31):
required, uh, of me on my first film.
Uh.
Which is put together, um, a board ofadvisors and what the idea there was,
you don't need five filmmakers who aregonna tell you how to make movies, but
one filmmaker that you could call and say,I'm in a bind, I'm painted into a corner.
(22:52):
I'm not sure what to do.
That would be helpful.
One subject expert who really knewthe, the world that you were planning
on, kind of injecting yourself into.
That could help younavigate that community.
Just sometimes it's just about bucklingdown and filling out the application.
Right.
You know?
Why are you the person to make this film?
(23:14):
Why is now the time to make this film?
Who is the audience for this film?
Well, and it's not just ITVS,that's every pitch I've ever done.
An executive will ask, why now?
Why does this film need to be made?
And like you said, why areyou the person to do it?
And that no matter where you are inyour career, you have to answer those
questions and it's best to thinkabout them as early as possible.
(23:36):
And I, one thing I wanted to say about youmeeting with, um, prospective filmmakers
or people who are looking for advice,I should say aspiring filmmakers, not
perspective, but I'm, I'm reading thisbook right now by George Raveling and,
uh, it's called What You're Made for andhe is, uh, a college basketball coach.
(23:58):
Who had a storied career.
He meant a lot to a lot of, um,professional athletes like Michael
Jordan writes the Forward and oneof his core principles is the idea
of what he calls planting flowers.
Hmm.
And he worked in basketball.
And that world gets smaller asyou continue in your career.
(24:20):
And I feel like documentary filmis the same way where you know,
fewer and fewer people do it.
The longer you, you do it.
And so it's important to treat yourcommunity well, and what he may
means by that is that you are doing,going out of your way to be kind to
everybody that you interact with,because planting those flowers, those
(24:44):
like seeds of hope and beauty, donothing but improve your quality of
life, the very least you get to notice.
Beautiful.
The, the results of your seeds thatyou've planted, or at the very best,
like your story, you get to getinvolved with some of these people.
They go on to be collaboratorsor lifelong friends.
And so it's really, he, he's makingthe point that it's really important to
(25:07):
take the time to extend that courtesyto people, um, not just to help them,
but that it comes back around andends up making your life much richer
and fuller and better as a result.
He is a gardener and a carpenter.
Hey, look at that.
Go to bring it back around.
(25:28):
I, I, I, second and third,everything that George Ling mm-hmm.
Has to say in that.
And like I said, I just wanna admit,like I don't always get it right.
Yeah.
Sometimes I've spokena little too bluntly.
Yeah.
Sometimes I've insinuated toomuch of my own point of view or
my own directing point of view.
Certainly my creative point of view.
Right.
Onto somebody else's idea.
Right.
(25:49):
And I don't do that with theintention of usurping their,
you know, their expression.
I do that kind of ata fervor for the idea.
Oftentimes.
Oftentimes I see like, like
you get excited andyou're like, you should do
this.
Yeah.
Like, you tell
them the way that you would do it.
Yeah.
I'm hungry for, fornarrative, uh, at all times.
You know, like, I love a good story.
Right.
And, uh.
And so, um, I do try and temper that.
(26:11):
Like I have to remember that though.
So that's advice I give myself before I gointo, um, I just got a, a text the other
day from a ut I think he's a freshman.
He is the son of a high schoolfriend's neighbor, so Wow.
Not much of a connection,you know, between us, right?
Um, but they asked, is it okayif I share your contact info?
(26:33):
He wants to know, you know, howcan he be a writer, director?
In this world.
And if, you know, going to UT for fouryears studying RTF is a good idea.
Yeah.
And and what'd you say?
Well, I, I said I'd meet with the kid.
I haven't met him yet.
Um, so I got the text fromhim, um, just the other day.
We're gonna have coffee in a couple days.
But see, even the fact that you'rewilling to do that is very generous.
(26:56):
I'm happy to do it.
Yeah, I'm happy to do it because, youknow what I, what'll happen is I'll sit
across the table from him and undoubtedlyI will get excited about the ideas.
That make him excited.
Yeah.
And I will see something of myself.
That's what I was gonna say,that and you'll sort of like
draft off his enthusiasm.
For sure.
And I remember teaching that.
(27:16):
That was like when I, when I taughtundergrad film students for a while,
that's what I got out of it too,is their enthusiasm is infectious
and then you get excited and youremind you of like why you wanted to.
Or at least why I wanted tomake films in the first place.
Well, I think you made areally good point a moment ago.
Like the advice that we give isoften the advice we need to hear.
Yeah.
(27:36):
And so every time I have a chance tomeet an emerging filmmaker, an up and
comer or just a colleague, you know,on equal, uh, footing as as myself, and
just talk about the work, talk aboutthe world, I come out of it renewed.
Yeah.
I remember when I was firststarting out and I was an undergrad
at the University of Kansas.
(27:58):
This happened multiple times where wewould have a guest speaker come into
one of our classes, and oftentimes theywere a director whose films we just
watch or the professor was friends with.
And this person would come in and theywould say, I'm a working professional, and
how many of you here want to be directors?
(28:18):
And everybody would raise their hand,I know right where this is going.
Right.
We've all had this happen,and this happened multiple
times as an undergraduate.
And then it look around
the room.
Yeah.
And then they would say something like,only three of you will end up being
directors out of, you know, 50, 60,sometimes a hundred kids in the class.
And I remember how deflatingthat felt and feeling like, why?
(28:42):
What's the point in doing that?
Like I know that probably to them theyfelt like they were giving us like
tough love and encouraging us alongthese sort of practical lines where.
Instead of being a director.
If you learn to be a sound mixer,then you know you will work more
often or have a more secure career.
(29:02):
But what that served to do was likeirritate me and motivate me forward.
'cause it kind of angered me.
And so I always remembered that feeling.
And when I taught, I would dothe exact opposite I would say.
Everybody in this class for this semesteris a director and I'm gonna treat you
that way and I'm gonna take you seriously.
(29:23):
And we are gonna make films togetherand this is your opportunity to be
a director and to not just dreamabout it, but to actually do it.
And I feel like when I give advice, Ilove, it's kind of in that same spirit.
I wanna be in that class like I do.
There is so much to be saidfor building somebody up.
(29:44):
Right, and for taking away the obstacles,especially in an, in an academic
kind of educational environment andsaying, this is the moment, this is
the moment where all that matters isthat you express yourself and that
you, you try new things, you getknocked down, and then you get up again
because we know this is hard to do.
(30:04):
It's like there's a lot of competition.
You, this is full of heartbreak,where you feel like, oh, I'm so
close and this is about to getmade, and then it doesn't get made.
Or you have to, you know, putit on the shelf for a year or
somebody beats you to the idea.
There's so many ways that, you know, thisis, this type of work is hard, and so I
(30:24):
think it's way more valuable to encouragepeople to do it and to keep going.
And to fight the fight than itis to point out how hard it is.
That's right.
Well, let's get practical here at the end.
Okay.
Let's do it.
Some approaches you can take to seekingadvice if you are new to filmmaking
or new to a community of filmmakers.
(30:46):
Yep.
Trying to break
in.
So if you want to make films, youhave undoubtedly been inspired
by films that already exist.
Do research about that directornowadays, it's very easy to find people's
contact information or ways to get.
In touch with them andwrite a thoughtful email.
(31:08):
Yeah.
Don't toss something off.
Write something that is intentionalthat, uh, you take time doing
that is considerate of their time.
'cause we're all busy people.
If you do that nine times outta10, the person will respond.
Mm-hmm.
What about you?
What, what advice would yougive to somebody starting
(31:28):
out and looking for advice?
I think that's great advice.
Um, I think, you know, takea more in-person approach.
Could work.
If you are new to filmmaking, one ofthe best things you could do is go
to a big festival and buy a badge.
Yeah.
Ask your folks for that forChristmas if you need to.
Yeah.
Or squirrel away the 200 to $600 itcan cost at one of the bigger fests.
But if you have a badge, many festivalsoffer, you know, one-on-one advice
(31:52):
sessions south by, certainly does.
Austin Film Festival also does, um,I know up in Hot Springs, they have
a new festival with a pitch for 'em.
Um, that, that people can attend.
New Orleans Film Festivalhas a pitch forum.
There are pitch forums aroundthe country, um, called
Good Pitch.
So your advice, I, I like that, isto go in person and go get inspired
(32:13):
by films and also try to meet thedirectors that you like there.
I think
going to screenings where the directorsare giving q and As, yeah, and sitting
in the room with a director answeringquestions going in person, I think can
make all the difference and sittingacross the table from somebody you
know, at South by the, at these.
Round tables.
I'm sure you've done thementorship round table.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
I've done it probably fiveor six times as a mentor.
(32:35):
And each time it's like speed dating.
You get 20 minutes with thepeople across the table from
you, you get six of them maybe.
Yep.
And every time I've done it, at leastone of those people has become someone
that I've stayed in touch with.
And I've noticed that about you.
When we run into people, likeat Sundance, for example.
You have helped lots of other filmmakersand they remember you and they,
(32:56):
and, and they thank you for that.
And that's something that I reallyadmire about the way that you work.
Well, I appreciate you saying that.
I, I just look at it as community buildingand, and, and when people reach out, you
know, because they, they don't reach out'cause they think I'm a, I'm a nice guy.
Uh, or, or, or smart or anything.
They reach out because theylike the work that it made.
Mm-hmm.
And they want to figure outhow to get their work seen.
(33:17):
Yeah.
And that's, I mean.
It starts off as a great bit of flattery,but it ends up as an opportunity, like
what we've talking about, like whatwe're talking about to, um, to advance
my own understanding of my own career.
Yeah.
So selfishly, when I talk to, to those,to those folks, I'm, I'm helping them
maybe, but I know I'm helping myself too.
You're
planting flowers as GeorgeLing would, would say.
(33:39):
And I think, uh, that's a greatnatural segue to end indoor episode
and look, look where we are.
We're right back where we started hereon the, uh, Lamar Street footbridge.
With a beautiful view of downtown Austin.
I'd like
to, you know, point some attention rightthere where it says, never give up.
Wow.
(33:59):
And over there where it says toe flop,
I'm, I, I'm not sure what onehas to do with the other, but
I like the sentiment of both.
And I love living here in Austin.
I love recording this podcast with you.
Thank you, Keith Maylands.
Thank you Ben Steinhower.
Let's cut.
And cutting.
(34:21):
For Go Valley, I'm Keith
Maitland.
And for the Bear, I'm Ben Steinbauer, andwe've got a musician here on the street.
All right.
(34:42):
Next time on Dock Walks,
we are going to explore the film festivalin our hometown, south by Southwest.
We've got some, uh, long form interviewsbooked with some South by filmmakers, and
I think the first one up in the hopper.
Is your friend and someone I'mlooking forward to getting to know
and hearing about his process.
(35:03):
And that is Adam Bala Low.
That's right.
He, uh, is probably most well known forhis latest doc series Telemarketers,
which is on HBO, and he's coming toSouth by with a new feature documentary
called Deep Faking Sam Altman.
So thanks for tuning in.
Thanks for sticking with us.
I hope you'll stick aroundfor the next episode.
(35:25):
South by Southwest.
We'll have several episodes from Southby and as always, uh, you're Keith.
I'm Ben.
You're Ben.
Thanks for tuning in everybody.
Bye y'all.
Bye-bye.
Follow us at Dog Walks Podon Instagram X and YouTube.
All right, here we areback where it all began.
Walking along the hiking bike trail.
That's Lady Bird Lake over my leftshoulder, and that's downtown Austin.
And that is Keith Maitland, that's me.
And I am Ben Steinbauer, that's him.
And we are on a walk here, as Keith said,around downtown Austin Post Sundance,
(00:22):
where, uh, I got very, very sick and got
sick.
I
got
sick,
you know, and it.
Um, I think we got sick at the sametime because we were at all the same
parties and then we commuted togetherto the airport in a small car.
And the interesting thing thoughis that Sally O'Grady, who was
(00:44):
there with us, did not get sick.
Did Amy get sick?
Amy Bench.
And I don't think Amy got sick.
Did Oe Esid get sick?
I don't think Oe got sick.
Did Conan O'Brien get sick?
Well.
He's been sick.
Well, he was sick of us, so ittook one second to to set in.
I see what you did there.
I like it.
(01:06):
On your left,
you're listening to DocWalk with Ben and Keith.
Lemme tell you one of my favoritethings about going to Sundance,
and this is the best part about it.
You don't even have to goto Sundance to do this.
Yes, what?
Get sick.
(01:27):
If you take a look at who's gonna beat Sundance, producers, distributors,
financiers, and you reach out kindalast minute, say four days before the
festival kicks off and you send thema little note uhhuh, it says, Hey,
saw you're gonna be in Park City.
I'm gonna be in Park City too.
Should we meet for a coffee?
(01:48):
Almost 100% of those people will say no.
Because they're already too busy withtheir tight pack schedules, they'll
say, you know what, I'm pretty busy.
I'm sure I'll bump into you there, butlet's set a zoom for the next week.
Ah, interesting.
So do you have a lot ofzooms that work scheduled?
I'm,
yeah.
I'm, I'm gonna be zooming up the next,the next two weeks really, I, I use
(02:09):
Sundance as an opportunity to kindof reconnect with some financiers.
I met with an agent who repsa subject I'm looking at,
oh, sorry.
Excuse me.
And, uh.
But yeah, my dance card is, is, is gettinglocked in for the next couple weeks.
That's a fantastic use of Sundance.
And also, one might argue a great segueinto what we're gonna talk about today.
(02:33):
What has that been?
I'm so glad you asked Keith.
It's, uh, inspired by Diane Quan.
We are gonna talk about theimportance of reaching out to
other filmmakers, getting advice.
Advice often tastes better in the
mouth than it tastes in the ear.
A wise man once said, is that a, a thing?
I haven't heard that saying.
I think I wrote that in a script once along time ago, but now I can't remember
(02:56):
if I got that out of like a book ofquotes or I made that quote up myself.
What does that quote mean?
It sounds a little gross, tastes betterin the mouth and it tastes in the air
that the advice giver, I think, sometimesenjoys advice more than the advice hearer.
I see.
Is that what that means?
I
see.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's a, that, thatinterpretation makes more sense.
Yes.
Um, back at Sundance.
(03:18):
We had a nice long formchat with Diane Kwan.
Mm-hmm.
And she told us that when she wasgetting started, the first thing
she did was send off an email toa filmmaker that inspired her.
And that was Morgan Nevillewith 20 feet from stardom.
Yep.
And she just said, HeyMorgan, you don't know me.
(03:40):
I am getting started as a documentaryproducer, kind of late in life,
and I could use some advice.
On how to get the ball rolling.
And miraculously, he wrote her back a verythoughtful email, and I say miraculous
because he's the guy who's winning Oscars.
He's juggling multiple projects,he's working with celebrities.
(04:00):
You would think that somebody at hislevel might not take the time to respond
to an email from an aspiring filmmakerlooking for advice, and it's heartwarming
and encouraging to hear that he didrespond and he responded thoughtfully.
Yeah, it was Morgan's responsethat that spurred Diane on.
And uh, and then she
(04:21):
went on to produce an Academy Awardnominated documentary that, uh, helped
the director deal with his grief andmoved a lot of the audience who saw it.
So, you know, his.
This, the what you hear about likea butterfly's wings, making ripples
that then affect lots of other things.
And that's to me a great exampleof the power of documentary.
(04:43):
The power of community, whichwe were gonna talk about today.
Well, listening to Diane talk abouther outreach made me wonder, Ben,
about you and was there a time thatyou can recall reaching out for advice?
Absolutely.
And how'd it go?
Well, so when I was an undergraduateat the University of Kansas, um, I was
(05:03):
studying film after being a creativewriter, a creative writing major,
and I had no idea how to get started.
I mean, me coming from Kansas, whereI was born, in Oklahoma, where I was
raised, I knew no one who was a filmmaker.
And, you know, choosing to do thatjob was almost like saying I wanted
to be an astronaut or something.
Like, it just didn't feel possible.
(05:26):
Um, and so one of my professors at KUrecommended that we reach out to people
that we admire and other filmmakers whosework we might wanna make something like.
And I wrote to, to three directors.
I wrote to Albert Maisels, I wrote toRoss Mcoe and I wrote to Les Blank.
(05:47):
And that right there shows you my sortof love of like, uh, sort of indie.
Uh, documentary.
Yeah.
And so they, all three wrote me back.
And for me in my early twenties, it wasreally inspiring and, uh, motivating.
And I got a camera and I went outand I made my first documentary.
(06:11):
And I remember Albert Maysles said thatthe thing that I should do is find,
uh, a subject that I had access to.
And to film that person with love inmy heart, to basically like love my
subject and give them the opportunityto like show their best self.
(06:33):
And then Ross McElwee wrote methis very poetic postcard, which
essentially said he quoted Wordsworthand he said the edge of meaning never
lies far from personal experience.
Meaning make a film about somethingyou have access to, something that
(06:53):
you know well, something that isgoing on with you in your life.
And, um, as big a fan as I amof Les Blank, and I would go
on to meet him years later.
I don't actually remember whathe, okay, what he said back to me.
Uh, but I do know that he respondedon like flower film's letterhead.
And I do have it in a notebook, butI can't recall what exactly he said.
(07:16):
But those three people did respond and it.
Uh, and I've always remembered that.
And so anytime somebody reaches outto me and asking for advice, I make
sure to take the time to respond.
I love what Albert Maiselshas to say there, and the
idea of treating your subject withlove, loving your subject, you know,
(07:36):
building empathy, finding common ground.
Um, yeah, in a sense, I think it's likebaked into to the concept of wanting to
point a camera at somebody, but it's easy.
To, uh, to forget that sometimes.
Absolutely.
Especially when you'rethinking about what's fundable?
How do I make money?
Uh, what will my, I dunno, agent be ableto take around town and, uh, get companies
(08:03):
interested in, in, uh, financing.
It's, you know, it, it canvery quickly tip over into more
of a financial consideration.
And it's important tokeep, for me at least.
To remember what it is thatmotivated me to start making
documentaries in the first place.
And here we should stop and get apicture of where we are right now.
(08:25):
This is incredibly beautiful.
This is downtown Austin, and we areright here on the hike and bike trail
in front of the pontoon party boatsthat you can rent to take out for
your next bachelor bachelorette party.
(08:45):
Or maybe the next duck walkscreative colloquium on the lake.
There we go.
There we go.
I was gonna say, um, uh, what,what do you call those at work?
Where you go out and you bond and you dotrust falls and you, uh, people with jobs
know the answer to, to that question.
I've never had that.
(09:05):
We did have a Go Valleycompany picnic recently.
They're a company retreat.
That's what I'm looking for.
Alright, so Albert Maisel's advice.
Is, uh, easy to take toheart, exciting to implement.
Can be challenging when you'resubject halfway through the process.
Maybe isn't giving you what you, uh,thought they were gonna give you or isn't
(09:27):
cooperating with your shoot schedule or,
yes.
Throwing
some curve
balls
Yes.
At the, at you.
But you know, the thing about documentary,which I, I know, you know, is that
you give up so much control when, ifyou're doing it right, in my opinion.
Because the story presentsitself to you at a certain point.
Like you can try to wrestle it intothe form you think it should take, but
(09:50):
ultimately you're a gardener and not acarpenter where you let the story sort
of blossom the character, kind of lead,uh, where the story's going instead of
trying to hammer them into a narrative.
And, uh, that's how I've always approachedfilms and I love movies that take me.
(10:10):
For a ride as an audiencemember, and I always aspire to
do that in any movie I make.
You're a gardener, not a carpenter.
Not a
carpenter.
My work has a fair amountof carpentry in it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, there's, there's some structuraldecision making and some scaffolding
that's often built, uh, tocreate creative boundaries, but
I think you're absolutely right.
You're cultivating a garden, right?
(10:31):
You're planting seeds andthen watching them grow.
You're watering some and weeding others.
Where
are we
at here, Ben?
We
are walking underneath whatis known as the Bat bridge.
The Bat bridge, which is whereall of the bats live and fly out.
Uh, at Sundown and tourists come tostand on top of this bridge to watch
(10:55):
all the bats fly into the sunset, um,to go and eat mosquitoes, hopefully.
And here we are.
We're walking the trail, right?
Underneath this iconic Congressthree bridge here in Austin.
This is a perfect opportunity for me toannounce a project that I am working on.
(11:19):
We've never talked about before.
No, I'm not in, uh, the roleof, of the director on this one.
I am a, uh, I'm a creative consultantand my company is providing some
services and I think there's achance I'll be doing some, uh, second
unit directing on some recreations.
But I am working with filmmakerSkip Hobby, to make the definitive
(11:41):
Austin Bats documentary.
No way.
Yeah.
How cool is that?
Yeah.
Skip Hobby is, uh, the world'sgreatest bat photographer.
He is a cinematographer who has beenshooting, um, with, with dozens of
types of bats on multiple continentsfor National Geographic for years.
Wow.
Speaking
of having love in your heart for somethingthat you film, this guy must clearly love.
(12:05):
Bats in order to go allover the world filming them.
Yeah, so Skip Hobby is, uh, has beencamped out underneath that bridge,
filming the bats as they emerge fromtheir, their sleep each night at dusk.
He shoots on a phantom, youknow, at 500 frames a second.
Wow.
The footage is just outstanding.
(12:26):
Um, working with Hillary Pierce,who was a supervising producer on a
couple of my films a few years ago.
Has been working with Maisie Crow onher films and Ben Masters on his films.
And that's a project that beganjust a year ago at the stuck on, on
uh, wisteria party where somebodyjust skipped to me and he asked if
(12:49):
he could ask for, uh, some advice.
Wow.
And
so through giving advice to anaspiring filmmaker or in this
PO case, a pretty establishedcinematographer, it sounds like you.
Got to get involved with the project
yourself.
He wanted to get together and talk aboutstory, talk about bringing the past into
(13:10):
the present as far as turning back thehands of time through archival footage.
Mm-hmm.
Potentially recreation, potentiallyanimation, all the different kind of
tools at, at our disposal and what startedout and could have just easily been,
you know, one coffee between colleagues.
Has turned into, uh, a collaboration anda, and a friendship and, um, and a project
(13:32):
I'm really excited about because the storyof the Bats who live under the Congress
Avenue Bridge is a great story and it'sone of the best stories of our town.
That's awesome.
Okay.
We have found ourselves just east ofdowntown on the south side of Lady Bird
Lake on the relatively new floatingboardwalk section of the trail.
(13:55):
This feels.
Like the perfect placeto do a little something.
Ben likes to call circle of confusion.
Are you ready, Ben?
I'm ready.
Here we go.
Circle of confusion and begin.
You gotta do it too.
Oh, I have to do it too.
I mean, it's only confusing if bothwindows are going at the same time.
Oh, okay.
All right.
Here we go.
Let's not get hit by a jogger.
(14:18):
Circle of confusion.
Whoa, I'm getting dizzy.
Four
function.
Storytelling all mixed up in a blender.
What are we doing?
Turning off the audience?
Undoubtedly,
making Ben very dizzy.
Oh, ooh.
Circle of confusion is gonna makeme, make me barf over the railing.
(14:43):
That's
a different segment of the show.
Tell me a story about you reaching outto somebody when you were first starting.
How did that go?
When I was getting started, I knewI wanted to make a documentary,
and I was fortunate enough tomeet this woman here in Austin.
I was living in New York,but I met her in Austin.
Her name is Lisa McWilliams andshe ran the mobile film school.
I asked her if she had anyadvice for getting started,
(15:06):
and she suggested two things.
She said, look at ITVS.
Go to their website, the independenttelevision service, and take
a look at their open call.
This is a major grant forindependent filmmakers.
Documentary filmmakers who wannaget their work shown on PBS, they
have one of the most complicatedapplication processes out there.
(15:29):
And it covers kind of all the bases ofeverything you need to know about your
project to get other people excited about.
So even if you don't apply, justfamiliarizing yourself with the
requirements of that process
forces you to think through.
It's a big step forward.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Your movie in a way that you probablyaren't doing up to that point.
Exactly.
And then the secondthing she suggested was.
(15:51):
Go to Hot Docs and sit in on the Torontodocumentary forum, which is a pitch forum.
Yeah.
To see what a real pitch looks like.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's hard to wrapyour head around sometimes.
But the way it worked is that, you know,kind of a selected group of filmmakers who
are already at least 20% funded on theirfilm, which is a big hurdle to overcome.
(16:14):
Um, we're presenting theirwork in front of an audience.
To a panel of basically American Idoljudges who were the commissioning editors
of international documentary, um, sales.
Right?
Which at the time was BBC Artes, A TF.
Mm-hmm.
PBS.
And so these are these two pillars of,of, of functional advice that Lisa gave
(16:39):
me was look at ITVS, the independenttelevision service as kind of a.
Foundational grant application thatwould cover all the bases and ask
you all the questions and go to apitch forum, especially a pitch forum
at a high level, and see how otherfilmmakers are presenting their work.
(17:00):
Um,
which is great advice.
So did you take it?
I took both of those.
Yeah.
I mean, I applied for ITVS and, uh,and I didn't get it and I, I reapplied
six months later and I didn't get it.
Yep.
And six months after that, I reapplied.
And I'm not sure if I gotit, but six months after that
I think is when I got it.
I think it took four cycles andwith each of those applications
(17:22):
came a feedback session.
And that's one of the thingsI also love about ITVS.
Ah, interesting.
So, so they said, we're not gonna giveyou the grant, but, and here's why.
Here's why,
here's why.
And here's what you could do tobe more attractive next time.
Because we definitelywant you to resubmit.
We're talking about,
uh, advice that we were given.
Let's talk about advice that we give.
(17:44):
So we are in about the midpoint ofour careers and I think we, it's fair
to say we both have people reachingout to us who are young, aspiring
filmmakers looking for advice.
Yeah.
Knowing that we got such pivotaladvice early on from people we
admired, how do you approachgiving advice to young filmmakers?
Like what do you say when somebody comesup and asks you how to get started?
(18:08):
You want advice to be helpful andyou want it to be constructive
and you want to move.
The conversation forward forthe person you're talking to.
I love to meet with other filmmakersand I love to find out what people are
up to, what projects are going on, andI think usually my advice is spurred
off of asking questions around that.
(18:30):
You know, what are you trying to say?
Where are you trying to land?
Who are you trying to connect with?
So you're going for likepractical, like how can I.
How can I be of most used toyou sort of boots on the ground
like nuts and bolts every day.
I think that's what's missing.
You know, like there's amillion books on productivity.
(18:52):
There's a million books on self-help.
Yeah.
There's a million fortune cookie.
You know, kind of bits of of directionyou can give somebody that say, you know,
be smarter, be better, be more connected.
Right.
And those are all helpful froma big picture point of view.
But when you're just getting started,like what is a fiscal sponsor?
Right,
(19:13):
right,
right.
How do I apply for a grant when itsays you have to be a nonprofit?
I'm not a nonprofit.
Do I have to start a nonprofit?
Yeah.
I mean, I can't tell you how many timesI've had a conversation with somebody
making a first film who just can't figureout how to convert a donation that their
uncle is willing to make for 1500 bucks.
Yeah.
Into time spent on the film.
(19:33):
And so what is a fiscal sponsor?
That's a pretty good place to start.
That's with a brand new filmmaker.
Yeah.
That's great.
And, and see, I, I think.
We differ here because I go for muchmore of the like, rah rah, you can do it.
This is important work.
Keep it up.
Kind of like reason to do it, Ithink is what I, and it's funny, I
(19:57):
think like we probably give advicebased on what we need, right?
Like you like your quote fromearlier, like advice tastes better
in the mouth and sounds in the ear.
I'm probably saying to the people.
Who asked me a version of what Ineed to hear in that moment in a way.
Yeah.
And you know, they maybe so.
(20:17):
Yeah, maybe so.
I mean, I appreciate it.
And if you need that, rah rah, I know thatI'm here for you because you can do it.
Oh, thank you, Kesy.
And I should, I should just begetting my affirmations from you.
I mean, I could text youevery morning if you'd like.
Um, I, there's no, there'snothing wrong with that.
And that's great to get and it,you, we all need that boost.
Yeah.
Um, and I, I think I'm agreeing withyou like oftentimes what I need.
(20:40):
You know, even today and every day,no matter what point of my career
I'm in, is like a clear next move.
Mm-hmm.
That will actually movethe rock up the hill.
Yeah.
You know, a foot or two.
Right.
And oftentimes I know whatthat next move is, but I don't
feel like it is the next move.
And so getting somebody else tosay, make that phone call, reach out
(21:02):
to that funder, set that meeting.
Yep.
You know, ask for advice.
I'll, I'll tell you like one pieceof advice I got a long time ago,
and I don't remember who gave it tome, but I've repeated it a lot, is
if you want,
if you want advice, ask for money.
Yep.
And if you want money, ask for advice.
(21:24):
For advice.
Yep.
Uh, I've heard that a lot too.
That personally hasn't served me'cause I don't fully understand
how, like, how to apply it.
So how, how do you think about that?
Well, I think
it's only half true.
I think if you want advice, ask for money.
It's totally true.
If you ask someone for money, they'regonna tell you what you need to do to make
your project better, different stand out.
(21:46):
So
in other
words, like if you get money fromsomebody, they're going to have notes
and want to be creatively involved.
I think
oftentimes they're gonna giveyou advice and not money.
Um, and that's, I think that'sthe point of the line is like, if
you want advice, ask for money.
'cause that's what you're gonna get.
You're gonna get advice.
Gotcha.
If you want money, ask for advice.
I think it's about cultivating.
(22:06):
Relationships, right?
Mm-hmm.
And it's about letting somebodyknow, I'm not coming at you just
to get into your pocketbook.
I'm coming at you because I appreciateand trust your point of view,
right?
So I'm looking at you as a collaboratorand not just as a financier that I can,
right?
And I think especially when you'regetting started, okay, here's a piece
of advice I think it serves thatit's something that, that ITVS, um,
(22:31):
required, uh, of me on my first film.
Uh.
Which is put together, um, a board ofadvisors and what the idea there was,
you don't need five filmmakers who aregonna tell you how to make movies, but
one filmmaker that you could call and say,I'm in a bind, I'm painted into a corner.
(22:52):
I'm not sure what to do.
That would be helpful.
One subject expert who really knewthe, the world that you were planning
on, kind of injecting yourself into.
That could help younavigate that community.
Just sometimes it's just about bucklingdown and filling out the application.
Right.
You know?
Why are you the person to make this film?
(23:14):
Why is now the time to make this film?
Who is the audience for this film?
Well, and it's not just ITVS,that's every pitch I've ever done.
An executive will ask, why now?
Why does this film need to be made?
And like you said, why areyou the person to do it?
And that no matter where you are inyour career, you have to answer those
questions and it's best to thinkabout them as early as possible.
(23:36):
And I, one thing I wanted to say about youmeeting with, um, prospective filmmakers
or people who are looking for advice,I should say aspiring filmmakers, not
perspective, but I'm, I'm reading thisbook right now by George Raveling and,
uh, it's called What You're Made for andhe is, uh, a college basketball coach.
(23:58):
Who had a storied career.
He meant a lot to a lot of, um,professional athletes like Michael
Jordan writes the Forward and oneof his core principles is the idea
of what he calls planting flowers.
Hmm.
And he worked in basketball.
And that world gets smaller asyou continue in your career.
(24:20):
And I feel like documentary filmis the same way where you know,
fewer and fewer people do it.
The longer you, you do it.
And so it's important to treat yourcommunity well, and what he may
means by that is that you are doing,going out of your way to be kind to
everybody that you interact with,because planting those flowers, those
(24:44):
like seeds of hope and beauty, donothing but improve your quality of
life, the very least you get to notice.
Beautiful.
The, the results of your seeds thatyou've planted, or at the very best,
like your story, you get to getinvolved with some of these people.
They go on to be collaboratorsor lifelong friends.
And so it's really, he, he's makingthe point that it's really important to
(25:07):
take the time to extend that courtesyto people, um, not just to help them,
but that it comes back around andends up making your life much richer
and fuller and better as a result.
He is a gardener and a carpenter.
Hey, look at that.
Go to bring it back around.
(25:28):
I, I, I, second and third,everything that George Ling mm-hmm.
Has to say in that.
And like I said, I just wanna admit,like I don't always get it right.
Yeah.
Sometimes I've spokena little too bluntly.
Yeah.
Sometimes I've insinuated toomuch of my own point of view or
my own directing point of view.
Certainly my creative point of view.
Right.
Onto somebody else's idea.
Right.
(25:49):
And I don't do that with theintention of usurping their,
you know, their expression.
I do that kind of ata fervor for the idea.
Oftentimes.
Oftentimes I see like, like
you get excited andyou're like, you should do
this.
Yeah.
Like, you tell
them the way that you would do it.
Yeah.
I'm hungry for, fornarrative, uh, at all times.
You know, like, I love a good story.
Right.
And, uh.
And so, um, I do try and temper that.
(26:11):
Like I have to remember that though.
So that's advice I give myself before I gointo, um, I just got a, a text the other
day from a ut I think he's a freshman.
He is the son of a high schoolfriend's neighbor, so Wow.
Not much of a connection,you know, between us, right?
Um, but they asked, is it okayif I share your contact info?
(26:33):
He wants to know, you know, howcan he be a writer, director?
In this world.
And if, you know, going to UT for fouryears studying RTF is a good idea.
Yeah.
And and what'd you say?
Well, I, I said I'd meet with the kid.
I haven't met him yet.
Um, so I got the text fromhim, um, just the other day.
We're gonna have coffee in a couple days.
But see, even the fact that you'rewilling to do that is very generous.
(26:56):
I'm happy to do it.
Yeah, I'm happy to do it because, youknow what I, what'll happen is I'll sit
across the table from him and undoubtedlyI will get excited about the ideas.
That make him excited.
Yeah.
And I will see something of myself.
That's what I was gonna say,that and you'll sort of like
draft off his enthusiasm.
For sure.
And I remember teaching that.
(27:16):
That was like when I, when I taughtundergrad film students for a while,
that's what I got out of it too,is their enthusiasm is infectious
and then you get excited and youremind you of like why you wanted to.
Or at least why I wanted tomake films in the first place.
Well, I think you made areally good point a moment ago.
Like the advice that we give isoften the advice we need to hear.
Yeah.
(27:36):
And so every time I have a chance tomeet an emerging filmmaker, an up and
comer or just a colleague, you know,on equal, uh, footing as as myself, and
just talk about the work, talk aboutthe world, I come out of it renewed.
Yeah.
I remember when I was firststarting out and I was an undergrad
at the University of Kansas.
(27:58):
This happened multiple times where wewould have a guest speaker come into
one of our classes, and oftentimes theywere a director whose films we just
watch or the professor was friends with.
And this person would come in and theywould say, I'm a working professional, and
how many of you here want to be directors?
(28:18):
And everybody would raise their hand,I know right where this is going.
Right.
We've all had this happen,and this happened multiple
times as an undergraduate.
And then it look around
the room.
Yeah.
And then they would say something like,only three of you will end up being
directors out of, you know, 50, 60,sometimes a hundred kids in the class.
And I remember how deflatingthat felt and feeling like, why?
(28:42):
What's the point in doing that?
Like I know that probably to them theyfelt like they were giving us like
tough love and encouraging us alongthese sort of practical lines where.
Instead of being a director.
If you learn to be a sound mixer,then you know you will work more
often or have a more secure career.
(29:02):
But what that served to do was likeirritate me and motivate me forward.
'cause it kind of angered me.
And so I always remembered that feeling.
And when I taught, I would dothe exact opposite I would say.
Everybody in this class for this semesteris a director and I'm gonna treat you
that way and I'm gonna take you seriously.
(29:23):
And we are gonna make films togetherand this is your opportunity to be
a director and to not just dreamabout it, but to actually do it.
And I feel like when I give advice, Ilove, it's kind of in that same spirit.
I wanna be in that class like I do.
There is so much to be saidfor building somebody up.
(29:44):
Right, and for taking away the obstacles,especially in an, in an academic
kind of educational environment andsaying, this is the moment, this is
the moment where all that matters isthat you express yourself and that
you, you try new things, you getknocked down, and then you get up again
because we know this is hard to do.
(30:04):
It's like there's a lot of competition.
You, this is full of heartbreak,where you feel like, oh, I'm so
close and this is about to getmade, and then it doesn't get made.
Or you have to, you know, putit on the shelf for a year or
somebody beats you to the idea.
There's so many ways that, you know, thisis, this type of work is hard, and so I
(30:24):
think it's way more valuable to encouragepeople to do it and to keep going.
And to fight the fight than itis to point out how hard it is.
That's right.
Well, let's get practical here at the end.
Okay.
Let's do it.
Some approaches you can take to seekingadvice if you are new to filmmaking
or new to a community of filmmakers.
(30:46):
Yep.
Trying to break
in.
So if you want to make films, youhave undoubtedly been inspired
by films that already exist.
Do research about that directornowadays, it's very easy to find people's
contact information or ways to get.
In touch with them andwrite a thoughtful email.
(31:08):
Yeah.
Don't toss something off.
Write something that is intentionalthat, uh, you take time doing
that is considerate of their time.
'cause we're all busy people.
If you do that nine times outta10, the person will respond.
Mm-hmm.
What about you?
What, what advice would yougive to somebody starting
(31:28):
out and looking for advice?
I think that's great advice.
Um, I think, you know, takea more in-person approach.
Could work.
If you are new to filmmaking, one ofthe best things you could do is go
to a big festival and buy a badge.
Yeah.
Ask your folks for that forChristmas if you need to.
Yeah.
Or squirrel away the 200 to $600 itcan cost at one of the bigger fests.
But if you have a badge, many festivalsoffer, you know, one-on-one advice
(31:52):
sessions south by, certainly does.
Austin Film Festival also does, um,I know up in Hot Springs, they have
a new festival with a pitch for 'em.
Um, that, that people can attend.
New Orleans Film Festivalhas a pitch forum.
There are pitch forums aroundthe country, um, called
Good Pitch.
So your advice, I, I like that, isto go in person and go get inspired
(32:13):
by films and also try to meet thedirectors that you like there.
I think
going to screenings where the directorsare giving q and As, yeah, and sitting
in the room with a director answeringquestions going in person, I think can
make all the difference and sittingacross the table from somebody you
know, at South by the, at these.
Round tables.
I'm sure you've done thementorship round table.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
I've done it probably fiveor six times as a mentor.
(32:35):
And each time it's like speed dating.
You get 20 minutes with thepeople across the table from
you, you get six of them maybe.
Yep.
And every time I've done it, at leastone of those people has become someone
that I've stayed in touch with.
And I've noticed that about you.
When we run into people, likeat Sundance, for example.
You have helped lots of other filmmakersand they remember you and they,
(32:56):
and, and they thank you for that.
And that's something that I reallyadmire about the way that you work.
Well, I appreciate you saying that.
I, I just look at it as community buildingand, and, and when people reach out, you
know, because they, they don't reach out'cause they think I'm a, I'm a nice guy.
Uh, or, or, or smart or anything.
They reach out because theylike the work that it made.
Mm-hmm.
And they want to figure outhow to get their work seen.
(33:17):
Yeah.
And that's, I mean.
It starts off as a great bit of flattery,but it ends up as an opportunity, like
what we've talking about, like whatwe're talking about to, um, to advance
my own understanding of my own career.
Yeah.
So selfishly, when I talk to, to those,to those folks, I'm, I'm helping them
maybe, but I know I'm helping myself too.
You're
planting flowers as GeorgeLing would, would say.
(33:39):
And I think, uh, that's a greatnatural segue to end indoor episode
and look, look where we are.
We're right back where we started hereon the, uh, Lamar Street footbridge.
With a beautiful view of downtown Austin.
I'd like
to, you know, point some attention rightthere where it says, never give up.
Wow.
(33:59):
And over there where it says toe flop,
I'm, I, I'm not sure what onehas to do with the other, but
I like the sentiment of both.
And I love living here in Austin.
I love recording this podcast with you.
Thank you, Keith Maylands.
Thank you Ben Steinhower.
Let's cut.
And cutting.
(34:21):
For Go Valley, I'm Keith
Maitland.
And for the Bear, I'm Ben Steinbauer, andwe've got a musician here on the street.
All right.
(34:42):
Next time on Dock Walks,
we are going to explore the film festivalin our hometown, south by Southwest.
We've got some, uh, long form interviewsbooked with some South by filmmakers, and
I think the first one up in the hopper.
Is your friend and someone I'mlooking forward to getting to know
and hearing about his process.
(35:03):
And that is Adam Bala Low.
That's right.
He, uh, is probably most well known forhis latest doc series Telemarketers,
which is on HBO, and he's coming toSouth by with a new feature documentary
called Deep Faking Sam Altman.
So thanks for tuning in.
Thanks for sticking with us.
I hope you'll stick aroundfor the next episode.
(35:25):
South by Southwest.
We'll have several episodes from Southby and as always, uh, you're Keith.
I'm Ben.
You're Ben.
Thanks for tuning in everybody.
Bye y'all.
Bye-bye.
Follow us at Dog Walks Podon Instagram X and YouTube.
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