May 22, 2025 • 25 mins
With SXSW in full swing, Ben & Keith walk downtown Austin with director Adam Bhala Lough (Telemarketers) the day before the premiere of Deep Faking Sam Altman. A prolific filmmaker, Adam shares stories behind the scenes of his new doc, gives tips on pitching, and after spending a year chasing AI pioneer Sam Altman, offers a surprisingly rosy view of the AI landscape.
00:00 Welcome to South by Southwest 2025
00:30 Meet Adam Bhala Lough: Prolific Director
01:23 Deep Faking Sam Altman: The New Film
01:49 The Journey of Making the Film
04:33 Challenges and Triumphs in Filmmaking
08:12 Pitching and Networking Secrets
12:59 The Train Keeps Moving
13:41 The Pivot: Embracing New Opportunities
14:29 Creating the Sambot
16:02 Journey to India
17:30 The Future of Documentaries
21:05 AI: A New Tool in Filmmaking
22:53 Closing Thoughts and Reflections
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Okay, Ben Austin, Texas.
Our hometown has just been invadedby a hundred thousand tech bros. Film
fans, music lovers are coming whenthe, uh, music kicks off on Tuesday.
It's south by Southwest Motorcycles inthe background south by Southwest 2025.
(00:25):
What does Dock Walks have in store for
day
one?
Well, we're gonna meet, um, Adam BhalaLough, who is a prolific director.
Uh, he is probably best known fortelemarketers and a film we made
about Lil Wayne called The Carter.
And he's here with a new film that,uh, he's gonna tell us all about.
(00:46):
And so that's how we'rekicking off the fest.
I don't know him very well, do you?
Yes.
We actually made a film together, uh,about Kid Rock for, uh, roughhouse.
Ooh, another motorcycle.
Which is, uh, David Gordon Green, uh,Jody Hill and Danny McBride's company.
And, uh, we should do a wholeepisode about that at some point
(01:06):
because that movie never came out.
Will never come out, is somewhatcontroversial, but that's
how uh, I got to know Adam.
Secret, unknown Kid Rock film episode.
To come.
Yes.
But for today, we're gonna takea nice little dock, walk around
downtown Austin with Adam.
He's in town to premiere his newfilm, deep Faking Sam Altman.
Yep.
(01:26):
So we're gonna go meet him at his hotel
and we're gonna walk around.
So here we go.
Let's go meet Adam.
Here we go.
On your left,
you are listening to DocWalks with Ben and Keith.
So.
We're here at South by 2025.
(01:47):
So give us, uh, tell uswhat you're doing here.
Well, I'm here with a doc featurethat I directed called Deep Faking,
Sam Altman, which not only didI direct it, but somehow I ended
up being in front of the camera.
So I'm in it for every single frameof the movie, which is really wild.
'cause I've never beenin any of my movies.
I mean, I've been in the background.
(02:07):
I've been in like theaudio, like you hear me?
But you were also in telemarketers.
Well, somewhat.
A little bit.
A little bit, but this one is this.
This movie is about me in a major way.
I mean, what it is, what it'sabout is a dad of two kids trying
to figure out how AI is going toaffect his children in the future.
(02:32):
So he goes out on this journeyand the obvious first step in the
journey is to interview Sam Altman.
Sam Altman is the.
CEO of open ai, creator of chat, GPT, andhe is sort of like the quote unquote, like
father of ai modern AI movement, right?
So the dad being me, I go to tryto interview Altman, he snubs me.
(02:56):
So eventually I go to open AIdirectly and get thrown out.
So you're going full Roger in me.
Yeah.
It's at this point it, themovie's very Roger in me.
I, I basically.
Say it starts out Roger andme and ends like Fitzcarraldo.
That's, that's the elevator pitch.
I love that.
To the movie.
I understand the Roger and mereference, but explain the Fitzcarraldo.
(03:19):
Fitzcarraldo comes after he throws.
After I get thrown out of openai, I decide, fuck this shit.
I'm gonna deep fake him and I'mgonna do the interview that way.
'cause at this point I also am.
Under contract by the financiers toget an interview with Sam Altman.
'cause that's the reason they cameon board the project and put up the
money was 'cause I told him I couldget an interview with Sam Altman.
(03:41):
'cause I've interviewedeverybody, so why not?
So he seemed like aneasy one to get right.
And I had his phone number, personal phonenumber, and you know, I had, um, pretty
direct connections to him, so I figuredit'd be easy, but it didn't happen.
So I was like, okay, well whatif I get an what if I interview
his, an AI version of Sam Altman?
That should count right?
(04:02):
For, for the contract.
So I set out to do that.
Awesome.
And did it count
clearly?
It
did.
It clearly did.
Yes.
They loved it.
Well, you know, they loved what itbecame During the course of making it,
obviously, they were like freaked out.
They were like, what the fuck is going on?
What are you doing?
Why are you going to India And spendingour money on making And how freaked out
were you the person making it?
I was having fun because I, Iknew that every time I failed
(04:26):
and fell on my face that it was.
Gonna be good cinema.
Yeah.
And it was gonna be funny.
So you kind of knew once Sam Altmansaid no to the interview request that
the movie was gonna be about you, ordid you, did you conceive of the movie
to be about you from the beginning?
In the beginning it was really, itwas yes to, to answer your question
directly, I, I knew that making amovie about ai and I knew of some other
(04:51):
movies that were coming about it, aboutcoming out, were being made about ai.
Specifically, Gibney is doing likea, a, a huge series that breaks down
the history and he talks to all thetitans, you know, blah, blah, blah.
I knew I didn't want todo something like that.
So if I was gonna do somethingabout ai, it needed to be deeply
personal and deeply human.
So that was the initial, like impetus,like making the movie, to like injecting
(05:15):
myself and my family into the movie.
Yeah.
Is that I wanted it to bea hu like human movie Yeah.
About ai.
So that, that was theinitial, initial impetus.
When you're riding this journey and you'remaking the decisions about what to do
and what not to do, as the world is kindof, you know, uh, throwing curve balls,
who are you bouncing these ideas off?
Do you have a producer or an editor?
(05:36):
A your wife?
Yeah.
Who, who are you working with?
Um, Christian Vasquez.
Amazing, amazing producer.
I, I stole 'em from Lance Oppenheim.
He was the producer on Ren Fair.
And, um, I asked Lance, I waslike, I need a young, smart, funny.
Super talented on the groundproducer to do this movie with me,
(05:58):
and he ended up being in the movie.
Like, I was like, you'rein the movie now, dude.
Like you're going to bea character in the movie.
So he's sort of likethe Robin to my Batman.
That's, and he's fantastic.
He's, he's, he's producingLance's new movie right now with
Robert Pattinson in New Orleans.
Okay.
So you're making this AI doc and youstart out like the impetus for it.
(06:18):
Like, do you remember the moment, uh,that you thought, I wanna do this?
It
probably goes all the way back towhen I was a little kid watching
Terminator two, which was likedefinitely a life-changing film for me.
It's definitely part ofwhy I became a filmmaker.
Yeah, 'cause you started asa narrative filmmaker and
then switched to documentary.
What was it that made you make the Switch?
(06:40):
It was the little Waynedocumentary of the Carter.
You know, I was struggling to getmovies made for a long time, but
after I made the Carter, it became alot easier to get documentaries made.
So I was like, I'm just gonna do this.
Fuck actors.
They suck.
Well, unless theircompanies are producing your
films.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's what they're good for.
Well, that's interesting 'cause one of thethings that I admire about you so much is
(07:00):
you seem to always have projects in thepipeline, and my experience has not been
that documentaries are easy to get made.
I, I find that they're very hard.
So how is it that you've been ableto, you know, keep this kind of
steady stream of box being produced?
I don't know.
I guess a lot of luckand, and perseverance.
Yeah.
Being at the rightplace at the right time.
Convincing the right people, you know,
(07:23):
because, well, you seemparticularly great at that.
Like just even the story you told usabout, you know, being interested in AI
and then saying with certainty, I cango interview Sam Altman to the point
that you can get a financier on board.
Yeah.
Without knowing the definitive answerto that question, but saying that
you could, like, that's chutzpah.
I think you gotta do, I think
you gotta, you gotta thinklike that and act like that.
(07:45):
I like to, to say that.
Movie making, even documentary filmmakingstill has a level of like PT Barnum.
No matter how serious and likesocial justice your project is,
you still need a little bit of likePT Barnum to get your shit sold.
Unless you live in like acommunist country and like the
Eastern block, you're convincinga bunch of rich people, you know?
(08:05):
Or some like studio execs.
Yeah.
So.
You, you need a level of that inorder to, to get your shit made.
You have this ability, it seemslike, to get very close to
influential people pretty quickly.
Like how do, how do you do that?
I think it really helps to havecertain people vouch for you.
That's the number one thing.
But also once you get in the room withpeople, you just, these are, these are,
(08:32):
okay, so I'll give you, I'll give you onelike really good example, like one little,
that I think is a, a great word of.
Advice for filmmakers.
I made this documentary, thiswhole documentary series about
skateboarding for Netflix.
They were partnered with a thing calledStreet League Skateboarding, which
was sort of like the, the NFL or theNBA of professional skateboarding.
(08:52):
It's like a league.
And they wanted me to do a docabout street league skateboarding
and about that specific league.
And the league was.
Owned and run by Rob Ick.
He's one of the most well-knownprofessional skateboarders in history.
And he also has like 8billion shows on MTV.
Right.
Okay.
(09:13):
So Rob Darick's a very smart guy.
He's also a guy who can see throughyou in like a, just in a minute.
And he's a guy who everybody comesto, to try to get money out of.
So,
so you, well, before you tell, so youhad to meet with him, I had to meet with
him to basically get his, uh, blessing.
To get his, blessing youto be the director of.
The doc
something.
(09:33):
Yeah.
Okay.
Exactly.
So when I, when I, when I sat downwith Rob, first of all, it helped
because he had seen the Carter.
He was like, he was like, oh,I fucking love that movie.
Like, brilliant movie.
So the conversation was around,I think three minutes long.
Three minutes.
I had like
three minutes to pitch him.
Oh my God.
This
idea,
okay.
So I pitched him the idea and hewas like, okay, so how much, how
(09:57):
much money do you need from me?
And I said, I don'tneed any money from you.
Nothing.
To keep your wallet in your pocket.
He's like, well, what,what do you need from me?
I'm like, I, I don't need anythingfrom you except just access.
That's it.
And he was kind of like surprised becauseI think he thought I was gonna come
in and ask him for a million dollars,which is like what everybody does.
But I was like, no, I don'tneed anything from you, dude.
(10:18):
Like, I'll go get the money.
You just get me the, the access.
So by the time I'd like gotteninto the parking lot and was
driving off, he like, hit up Steveand he was like, let's do this.
So the moral of that story to you isthat you knew basically that if you went
in there to ask him for something, thatwould be kind of the end of it, whereas
like you, yeah, you put him at ease.
(10:40):
Everybody all day.
These these guys that are like kindof like at the top of whatever,
top of the food chain, right?
All day, every day.
All anybody does is come in andask them to give them something.
Ask them for money,ask them for something.
Yeah,
I think he was pretty relieved.
I didn't ask him for any money at all.
Rather, I, I positioned it likeI'm giving him an opportunity
(11:00):
to be a part of something cool.
If he wants, if he wants to.
Was that meeting do or die for you?
Uh, yeah, pretty much.
That was a, that was a very roughpatch in my career where I was
just like, I had nothing going on.
I pretty desperately neededto like, get a project going.
So we made that film.
(11:22):
And it did really well.
It was, uh, it was during the era oflike VOD, there was like a, a small
window of like a few years where likeyou could put something on, on iTunes
or Apple, like iMovie and sell itright for like 9 99 and people would
actually pay for it and download it.
(11:43):
Wow.
And VOD is video on demand?
Yeah, it was
pre, pre streaming andit was sold really well.
It was like the number one documentary.
In the Apple store for like three weeks.
So you were talking about goinginto this pitch, it's do or die.
You're not asking for money,you're asking for access, and
kind of like a stamp of approval.
How do you, like, how do you prepfor a pitch and, and what are some
(12:07):
differences that you've encountered thatkind of, some of your signature moves.
Yeah.
How do you prep for a
pitch?
How do I prep for a pitch?
Get, hopefully get a good night of sleep.
Eat a NICE's breakfast,eat a good breakfast.
I get caffeinated.
But yeah, I mean, I think the mostimportant thing is walk into to a pitch.
(12:27):
Like you're presenting anopportunity for somebody.
So you're not asking, you're more,you're not asking for anything.
You're, you're, you're basicallysaying like, Hey, we're
going along for this ride.
This is gonna be a cool ride.
Like, come along with us.
You don't have to if you don't wantto, but like, it could be fun and.
That's about it.
That's great advice.
So you're getting them excited.
(12:48):
Yeah.
Like I, I remember Jay ddu Plustold me once, he was like, everybody
wants to jump aboard a moving train.
Nobody wants to help you get something.
No one wants going pushthe train up the hill.
Yeah.
They want to, they want to join the ride.
Yeah.
That's, that's what I, I alwayssaid, even from the beginning.
My career was like, you have to goin into it at all times with the
(13:10):
attitude of like, this train ismoving, it's moving very fast, and
it's gonna move forward without you,whether you're on a part of it or not.
We're still gonna do it anyways.
The train's gonna keep going.
Yeah.
We'd love to have you onboard the train.
If, but if not, like, we're,we're gonna keep going.
Like, I don't think it'swise to give people.
(13:30):
All the power either that likewe, oh, we desperate, we need you.
We can't do this without you.
Like we desperately need you.
'cause that's not, that's alsonot a good position to be in.
Right.
Okay.
So I wanna bring this back around.
Yeah.
We started out by talking aboutdeep faking Sam Altman and
trying to gain access to Sam.
That access was deniedand so you had to pivot.
(13:50):
Can you talk to us a little bitmore about that moment, the decision
making process for you, and then whatthat opened up for you for the film?
Yeah, I mean, opened upis a great way to put it.
I felt like I had reached a dead end,but the truth was that I just reached a
giant open door to something completelydifferent and even more interesting.
And there's a moment in the film toowhere I'm, where I'm telling Christian,
(14:14):
we're walking together in San Francisco.
And I'm like, and and thatmoment was when, uh, the Scar
Jo controversy happened, right?
Like, oh, with using her voice.
Using her voice, right.
I was like.
That day, I was like, we shoulddo the same thing to him.
We should steal his voice and weshould, we should create, uh, an
(14:34):
LLM, uh, basically a brain, likea chatbot loaded in with all his
information, all his interviews,everything, and interview that.
Wow.
And the creation of that was an,and then deepfake, an actor, right.
Get an actor.
You have to have an actoractually sit in the chair, get,
have an actor sit in the chair.
(14:55):
So I interviewed Rain Wilson for it.
No way.
He said no.
Oh.
He was like this.
He was like, wait, you'renot gonna use my face.
Fuck you.
He was great.
Um, is that the film?
It is in the film.
Great.
I interviewed, um, Michael IanBlack and uh, John Cameron Mitchell.
(15:15):
And see,
these are great names.
So how are you getting these guys?
Is this through your agent?
Is this through Kevin Hart?
So Rain came through.
I think I'm going the wrong way.
That's all right.
We're we're walking.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rain came through.
Kevin, uh, John Cameron Mitchellis a friend of a friend and
(15:36):
I've known him for a long time.
Really sweet guy, awesome guy.
And then Michael Lee in Blackalso came through Kevin.
Cool.
And okay.
Um, obviously we, I reached out to alot of other people who, who didn't even
want to do the, the audition, but yeah.
So we had to deep fake the actor.
(15:57):
But here's where thestory really opens up.
'cause I just basically ascribed toyou the first 20 minutes of the movie.
Where the story really opens up is atthat point I go, I'm in San Francisco
and I'm trying to find somebody to dothis work, like a company to do this
work, but no one wants to do it 'causethey're all scared of Sam Altman.
Right.
So I find this guy on the internetin India, who it's called the Indian
(16:19):
Deep Faker, and he has a bunch ofviral videos and it's, it's one of
the funniest scenes in the movie.
I'm like explaining to him what Iwant to do and telling him like every,
it's like no one wants to do this inAmerica and like, would he consider,
and he's like, yeah, I'm down.
Come on, come, come overto push car, come to India.
And so then like, then we're ona plane going to India and trying
(16:39):
to figure out how to do that.
So it really opens up.
To like a whole other, and that's thefitzcarraldo piece where it's like
pushing the boat up the, up the mountain,carrying the, carrying the boat over
the mountain, which is like creatingthis, this fake Sam Altman, right?
This, that I call sambot, creatingthe sambot, getting doing the
(16:59):
interview, which is a whole ordeal.
In India, we, we did the interview,but then coming back to the US
with Sambot and living with it.
Living with it for like.
Months.
Oh my God, I didn't know this levelof connect and my put like, it
becomes like part of my family.
Oh man,
yeah,
this sounds so, I can'twait to see this movie.
And I, it's, it's, it gets weird.
(17:20):
It's sad.
That's what I like most about it,I think, is that it just goes.
Places where you don't expect itto go, it just gets fucking weird.
Well, and I know you have to go'cause you have another interview.
So, you know, last question here,and this is a big one, but we talk
a lot in the podcast so far aboutthe future of documentary, right?
And you're a, a very interesting personto ask this question because you've
(17:42):
just made a documentary about ai.
We're at this pivotal time where peopleare, you know, watching more TikTok
than they are long form documentaries.
Uh, they're making like half the amountof TV shows that they've ever made before.
Essentially, it feels like ourindustry's a little bit in peril and it's
because of large part new technology.
So, as somebody who makes long formdocs and who has just made one about
(18:05):
new technology, like where do yousee the state of the industry now?
Where do you see it going?
Like what, what did you learnfrom making this film basically?
Yeah.
I mean, that's a hard question to unpack.
I think that I definitely, I haveto say not, and not, I guess not
so much for documentaries, butdocumentaries are a part of this.
I was really excited and proudof Sean Baker and everything
(18:30):
he achieved at the Oscars.
'cause that's great.
For independent film, a moviethat was made for $6 million.
That was in the theaters.
People went to the theaters to see it.
I mean, granted it was the, thelowest attendance in theaters
of any best picture winner.
But still,
but it won five Oscars,it won five Oscars.
We're we're talking about a Nora.
Yeah.
So I, I, I think, at least for thetime being, that's, that's gonna, I.
(18:54):
It lifts, you know, a rising tidelifts all boats and I think that that
will carry over into documentaries.
The one thing I'm seeing that goesbeyond technology that's actually really
disturbing to me is like, you see amovie like no other Land, and I was with
those guys, I hung out with those guys atthe, um, cinema Ion a couple months ago.
(19:15):
They just won the Oscar.
They couldn't get their film distributed.
No one would touch it.
It was too, too hot.
Right?
Like no one would touch it.
And that, that's alittle disturbing to me.
And that obviously hasnothing to do with technology.
Mm-hmm.
And,
and that's the film about, um, therelationship between a Israeli and a Yeah.
Gaza.
It's, it's,
it's a, it's, yeah, it's a filmabout Gaza, both the one filmmaker's
(19:37):
Palestinian and the other's Israeli.
That's quite disturbing and Ihope that we can get past that.
Mm-hmm.
But.
I am em very emboldened by a Noraand what happened at the Oscars
and uh, I think that'll be.
At least for the time being willbe really good for independent
films and docu documentaries thatspecifically should go to to theatrical.
(20:00):
Mm-hmm.
So
this is inter, it sounds like whatyou're saying, docs, I feel, I feel
like I feel good about the state ofaffairs, at least for a few years
because of the success of an aura.
What Sean was able to do with that.
Mm-hmm.
It was pretty, pretty incredible.
Yeah.
It, it's, so, I expected youto go totally the other way.
That's really interesting that youhave like a rosy positive view of
(20:21):
the future of this after having madean AI documentary, so that's great.
Yeah.
'cause we, we've heard the oppositeargument a lot lately, so I'm
glad we're hearing a, uh, sort ofa positive view, a rosy picture.
Yeah.
I mean, I wouldn't call it rosy.
I would, but I, and, and, and I probablywouldn't be talking like this if it.
Hadn't happened at theOscars, but like it was pretty
(20:41):
unprecedented what Sean achieved.
And like, I'm hearing peoplein the industry talking like
about indie film coming back.
But in a real way, you know, you,you guys make, uh, indie, you guys
make fictional indie films too, so.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I think there's going to bemore of a place for that, at least in
the next, at least in the near future.
(21:04):
When this
movie comes out, what do youwant people to take away from it?
What I want people to takeaway from it for sure.
Like AI is scary, right?
There's parts of it thatare, that are for sure scary.
I think AI is like a toddler, very,very smart toddler that we're raising.
You know, we have to be really carefulhow we raise it, but I think we're,
(21:24):
I think we're going to be okay.
I think this gate's all gonna be okay.
And Rosie On Rosie.
Yeah.
So I, so I'm hoping thatpeople watch the movie.
I, I, I think the audience for this movieis cer is, is basically anybody who has
an interest in ai, but also people whoare kind of slightly concerned about
how it's gonna affect their future.
(21:46):
And so I hope they see it.
And what I took away from it asa filmmaker is that it's just
another tool in the toolkit for us.
It's not going to, to take all our jobs.
There's a line at the end of the movie,which wraps it all back to Terminator
two, where I'm like, the T one thousand'snot coming for my job anytime soon.
Like that's sort of what I, what I,what I gleaned from the year long
(22:09):
process of, of, of making the movie.
I. Awesome
man.
Rosie on, Rosie is right.
Yeah.
Two, I I love it.
Disappointed.
You guys are, I'm, I'mpleasantly surprised.
Sounds like you've been getting a lot of,uh, uh, uh, ne negativity in your podcast.
I think people,
people are, people are concerned,people are scared, but here you are,
you're on the eve of your premiere.
I would, I would hope that you'reconfident and excited for the future.
(22:32):
Sure.
Yeah.
That's, that's where you should be.
Yes.
Thank you for doing this, man.
It was great to reconnectand hang out for a minute.
Awesome.
Cool.
Alright, man.
Well, I'll see you, uh, at the, atthe premiere tomorrow night or, yeah.
Yeah.
I
appreciate it.
It was fun.
Yeah, looking forward to seeing it.
It's gonna be exciting.
Cool.
All right.
Thank you guys.
Thanks Adam.
Thank you, Ben.
Yeah, yeah.
(22:52):
All right.
Walking out of Adam Bal Low'shotel room, and I have to admit
feeling a little bit rosy.
Um, I'm glad to know.
He sees a, a path forward, um, and doesn'tfeel like the AI is going to infringe on
all of our rights, our jobs, our ideas.
And I have to say, I mean, I've,he's reflecting a feeling that I
(23:14):
think I have in my gut as far as itbeing another tool in the toolbox.
And it kinda gets back to thatoff repeated quote that I don't
know who said it, but I should.
Um, AI isn't coming to take your job.
The person who knows how to use ai.
Is coming to get your job.
Ah,
I like that.
So, so that's a vote to embrace AIand learn it rather than run from
(23:36):
it and start wringing your hands.
I think there's enough handwringing in this world.
I'm, I'm ready to be Roy.
Um, I like it, man.
I was not expecting thatfrom you or from Adam.
And I'm glad that we got more ofa dose of like, no, we gotta be
PT Barnum, we gotta be showman.
We gotta, we gotta be theT 2000, we gotta be T 2000.
And, uh, I'll be back
(23:56):
and persevere.
Let's, uh, let's hit the corner.
Let's leave that there.
Let's hit the cornerand just take some tone.
'cause we never get enough of that.
It's true.
Oh,
okay.
This is tone for on the street.
Oh, boy.
Right.
Is a, uh, party bus is coming.
All right.
Here we go.
(24:18):
Woo hoo.
I gotta go sign up and get my badge.
All right, let's do it.
All right.
Cutting for now.
Bye everybody.
Thanks.
Doc Walkers
next time on Doc Walks with Ben and Keith.
There's no Keith.
Ben's off to New York City to walkand talk with filmmaker Matt Wolf,
(24:40):
director of the new Peewee Hermandocumentary premiering this week on HBO.
Check it out.
Doc Walks is created, produced, and editedby my friend Ben Steinhower of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend KeithMaitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
(25:01):
Follow us at Doc Walks Podon Instagram X and YouTube.
Okay, Ben Austin, Texas.
Our hometown has just been invadedby a hundred thousand tech bros. Film
fans, music lovers are coming whenthe, uh, music kicks off on Tuesday.
It's south by Southwest Motorcycles inthe background south by Southwest 2025.
(00:25):
What does Dock Walks have in store for
day
one?
Well, we're gonna meet, um, Adam BhalaLough, who is a prolific director.
Uh, he is probably best known fortelemarketers and a film we made
about Lil Wayne called The Carter.
And he's here with a new film that,uh, he's gonna tell us all about.
(00:46):
And so that's how we'rekicking off the fest.
I don't know him very well, do you?
Yes.
We actually made a film together, uh,about Kid Rock for, uh, roughhouse.
Ooh, another motorcycle.
Which is, uh, David Gordon Green, uh,Jody Hill and Danny McBride's company.
And, uh, we should do a wholeepisode about that at some point
(01:06):
because that movie never came out.
Will never come out, is somewhatcontroversial, but that's
how uh, I got to know Adam.
Secret, unknown Kid Rock film episode.
To come.
Yes.
But for today, we're gonna takea nice little dock, walk around
downtown Austin with Adam.
He's in town to premiere his newfilm, deep Faking Sam Altman.
Yep.
(01:26):
So we're gonna go meet him at his hotel
and we're gonna walk around.
So here we go.
Let's go meet Adam.
Here we go.
On your left,
you are listening to DocWalks with Ben and Keith.
So.
We're here at South by 2025.
(01:47):
So give us, uh, tell uswhat you're doing here.
Well, I'm here with a doc featurethat I directed called Deep Faking,
Sam Altman, which not only didI direct it, but somehow I ended
up being in front of the camera.
So I'm in it for every single frameof the movie, which is really wild.
'cause I've never beenin any of my movies.
I mean, I've been in the background.
(02:07):
I've been in like theaudio, like you hear me?
But you were also in telemarketers.
Well, somewhat.
A little bit.
A little bit, but this one is this.
This movie is about me in a major way.
I mean, what it is, what it'sabout is a dad of two kids trying
to figure out how AI is going toaffect his children in the future.
(02:32):
So he goes out on this journeyand the obvious first step in the
journey is to interview Sam Altman.
Sam Altman is the.
CEO of open ai, creator of chat, GPT, andhe is sort of like the quote unquote, like
father of ai modern AI movement, right?
So the dad being me, I go to tryto interview Altman, he snubs me.
(02:56):
So eventually I go to open AIdirectly and get thrown out.
So you're going full Roger in me.
Yeah.
It's at this point it, themovie's very Roger in me.
I, I basically.
Say it starts out Roger andme and ends like Fitzcarraldo.
That's, that's the elevator pitch.
I love that.
To the movie.
I understand the Roger and mereference, but explain the Fitzcarraldo.
(03:19):
Fitzcarraldo comes after he throws.
After I get thrown out of openai, I decide, fuck this shit.
I'm gonna deep fake him and I'mgonna do the interview that way.
'cause at this point I also am.
Under contract by the financiers toget an interview with Sam Altman.
'cause that's the reason they cameon board the project and put up the
money was 'cause I told him I couldget an interview with Sam Altman.
(03:41):
'cause I've interviewedeverybody, so why not?
So he seemed like aneasy one to get right.
And I had his phone number, personal phonenumber, and you know, I had, um, pretty
direct connections to him, so I figuredit'd be easy, but it didn't happen.
So I was like, okay, well whatif I get an what if I interview
his, an AI version of Sam Altman?
That should count right?
(04:02):
For, for the contract.
So I set out to do that.
Awesome.
And did it count
clearly?
It
did.
It clearly did.
Yes.
They loved it.
Well, you know, they loved what itbecame During the course of making it,
obviously, they were like freaked out.
They were like, what the fuck is going on?
What are you doing?
Why are you going to India And spendingour money on making And how freaked out
were you the person making it?
I was having fun because I, Iknew that every time I failed
(04:26):
and fell on my face that it was.
Gonna be good cinema.
Yeah.
And it was gonna be funny.
So you kind of knew once Sam Altmansaid no to the interview request that
the movie was gonna be about you, ordid you, did you conceive of the movie
to be about you from the beginning?
In the beginning it was really, itwas yes to, to answer your question
directly, I, I knew that making amovie about ai and I knew of some other
(04:51):
movies that were coming about it, aboutcoming out, were being made about ai.
Specifically, Gibney is doing likea, a, a huge series that breaks down
the history and he talks to all thetitans, you know, blah, blah, blah.
I knew I didn't want todo something like that.
So if I was gonna do somethingabout ai, it needed to be deeply
personal and deeply human.
So that was the initial, like impetus,like making the movie, to like injecting
(05:15):
myself and my family into the movie.
Yeah.
Is that I wanted it to bea hu like human movie Yeah.
About ai.
So that, that was theinitial, initial impetus.
When you're riding this journey and you'remaking the decisions about what to do
and what not to do, as the world is kindof, you know, uh, throwing curve balls,
who are you bouncing these ideas off?
Do you have a producer or an editor?
(05:36):
A your wife?
Yeah.
Who, who are you working with?
Um, Christian Vasquez.
Amazing, amazing producer.
I, I stole 'em from Lance Oppenheim.
He was the producer on Ren Fair.
And, um, I asked Lance, I waslike, I need a young, smart, funny.
Super talented on the groundproducer to do this movie with me,
(05:58):
and he ended up being in the movie.
Like, I was like, you'rein the movie now, dude.
Like you're going to bea character in the movie.
So he's sort of likethe Robin to my Batman.
That's, and he's fantastic.
He's, he's, he's producingLance's new movie right now with
Robert Pattinson in New Orleans.
Okay.
So you're making this AI doc and youstart out like the impetus for it.
(06:18):
Like, do you remember the moment, uh,that you thought, I wanna do this?
It
probably goes all the way back towhen I was a little kid watching
Terminator two, which was likedefinitely a life-changing film for me.
It's definitely part ofwhy I became a filmmaker.
Yeah, 'cause you started asa narrative filmmaker and
then switched to documentary.
What was it that made you make the Switch?
(06:40):
It was the little Waynedocumentary of the Carter.
You know, I was struggling to getmovies made for a long time, but
after I made the Carter, it became alot easier to get documentaries made.
So I was like, I'm just gonna do this.
Fuck actors.
They suck.
Well, unless theircompanies are producing your
films.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That's what they're good for.
Well, that's interesting 'cause one of thethings that I admire about you so much is
(07:00):
you seem to always have projects in thepipeline, and my experience has not been
that documentaries are easy to get made.
I, I find that they're very hard.
So how is it that you've been ableto, you know, keep this kind of
steady stream of box being produced?
I don't know.
I guess a lot of luckand, and perseverance.
Yeah.
Being at the rightplace at the right time.
Convincing the right people, you know,
(07:23):
because, well, you seemparticularly great at that.
Like just even the story you told usabout, you know, being interested in AI
and then saying with certainty, I cango interview Sam Altman to the point
that you can get a financier on board.
Yeah.
Without knowing the definitive answerto that question, but saying that
you could, like, that's chutzpah.
I think you gotta do, I think
you gotta, you gotta thinklike that and act like that.
(07:45):
I like to, to say that.
Movie making, even documentary filmmakingstill has a level of like PT Barnum.
No matter how serious and likesocial justice your project is,
you still need a little bit of likePT Barnum to get your shit sold.
Unless you live in like acommunist country and like the
Eastern block, you're convincinga bunch of rich people, you know?
(08:05):
Or some like studio execs.
Yeah.
So.
You, you need a level of that inorder to, to get your shit made.
You have this ability, it seemslike, to get very close to
influential people pretty quickly.
Like how do, how do you do that?
I think it really helps to havecertain people vouch for you.
That's the number one thing.
But also once you get in the room withpeople, you just, these are, these are,
(08:32):
okay, so I'll give you, I'll give you onelike really good example, like one little,
that I think is a, a great word of.
Advice for filmmakers.
I made this documentary, thiswhole documentary series about
skateboarding for Netflix.
They were partnered with a thing calledStreet League Skateboarding, which
was sort of like the, the NFL or theNBA of professional skateboarding.
(08:52):
It's like a league.
And they wanted me to do a docabout street league skateboarding
and about that specific league.
And the league was.
Owned and run by Rob Ick.
He's one of the most well-knownprofessional skateboarders in history.
And he also has like 8billion shows on MTV.
Right.
Okay.
(09:13):
So Rob Darick's a very smart guy.
He's also a guy who can see throughyou in like a, just in a minute.
And he's a guy who everybody comesto, to try to get money out of.
So,
so you, well, before you tell, so youhad to meet with him, I had to meet with
him to basically get his, uh, blessing.
To get his, blessing youto be the director of.
The doc
something.
(09:33):
Yeah.
Okay.
Exactly.
So when I, when I, when I sat downwith Rob, first of all, it helped
because he had seen the Carter.
He was like, he was like, oh,I fucking love that movie.
Like, brilliant movie.
So the conversation was around,I think three minutes long.
Three minutes.
I had like
three minutes to pitch him.
Oh my God.
This
idea,
okay.
So I pitched him the idea and hewas like, okay, so how much, how
(09:57):
much money do you need from me?
And I said, I don'tneed any money from you.
Nothing.
To keep your wallet in your pocket.
He's like, well, what,what do you need from me?
I'm like, I, I don't need anythingfrom you except just access.
That's it.
And he was kind of like surprised becauseI think he thought I was gonna come
in and ask him for a million dollars,which is like what everybody does.
But I was like, no, I don'tneed anything from you, dude.
(10:18):
Like, I'll go get the money.
You just get me the, the access.
So by the time I'd like gotteninto the parking lot and was
driving off, he like, hit up Steveand he was like, let's do this.
So the moral of that story to you isthat you knew basically that if you went
in there to ask him for something, thatwould be kind of the end of it, whereas
like you, yeah, you put him at ease.
(10:40):
Everybody all day.
These these guys that are like kindof like at the top of whatever,
top of the food chain, right?
All day, every day.
All anybody does is come in andask them to give them something.
Ask them for money,ask them for something.
Yeah,
I think he was pretty relieved.
I didn't ask him for any money at all.
Rather, I, I positioned it likeI'm giving him an opportunity
(11:00):
to be a part of something cool.
If he wants, if he wants to.
Was that meeting do or die for you?
Uh, yeah, pretty much.
That was a, that was a very roughpatch in my career where I was
just like, I had nothing going on.
I pretty desperately neededto like, get a project going.
So we made that film.
(11:22):
And it did really well.
It was, uh, it was during the era oflike VOD, there was like a, a small
window of like a few years where likeyou could put something on, on iTunes
or Apple, like iMovie and sell itright for like 9 99 and people would
actually pay for it and download it.
(11:43):
Wow.
And VOD is video on demand?
Yeah, it was
pre, pre streaming andit was sold really well.
It was like the number one documentary.
In the Apple store for like three weeks.
So you were talking about goinginto this pitch, it's do or die.
You're not asking for money,you're asking for access, and
kind of like a stamp of approval.
How do you, like, how do you prepfor a pitch and, and what are some
(12:07):
differences that you've encountered thatkind of, some of your signature moves.
Yeah.
How do you prep for a
pitch?
How do I prep for a pitch?
Get, hopefully get a good night of sleep.
Eat a NICE's breakfast,eat a good breakfast.
I get caffeinated.
But yeah, I mean, I think the mostimportant thing is walk into to a pitch.
(12:27):
Like you're presenting anopportunity for somebody.
So you're not asking, you're more,you're not asking for anything.
You're, you're, you're basicallysaying like, Hey, we're
going along for this ride.
This is gonna be a cool ride.
Like, come along with us.
You don't have to if you don't wantto, but like, it could be fun and.
That's about it.
That's great advice.
So you're getting them excited.
(12:48):
Yeah.
Like I, I remember Jay ddu Plustold me once, he was like, everybody
wants to jump aboard a moving train.
Nobody wants to help you get something.
No one wants going pushthe train up the hill.
Yeah.
They want to, they want to join the ride.
Yeah.
That's, that's what I, I alwayssaid, even from the beginning.
My career was like, you have to goin into it at all times with the
(13:10):
attitude of like, this train ismoving, it's moving very fast, and
it's gonna move forward without you,whether you're on a part of it or not.
We're still gonna do it anyways.
The train's gonna keep going.
Yeah.
We'd love to have you onboard the train.
If, but if not, like, we're,we're gonna keep going.
Like, I don't think it'swise to give people.
(13:30):
All the power either that likewe, oh, we desperate, we need you.
We can't do this without you.
Like we desperately need you.
'cause that's not, that's alsonot a good position to be in.
Right.
Okay.
So I wanna bring this back around.
Yeah.
We started out by talking aboutdeep faking Sam Altman and
trying to gain access to Sam.
That access was deniedand so you had to pivot.
(13:50):
Can you talk to us a little bitmore about that moment, the decision
making process for you, and then whatthat opened up for you for the film?
Yeah, I mean, opened upis a great way to put it.
I felt like I had reached a dead end,but the truth was that I just reached a
giant open door to something completelydifferent and even more interesting.
And there's a moment in the film toowhere I'm, where I'm telling Christian,
(14:14):
we're walking together in San Francisco.
And I'm like, and and thatmoment was when, uh, the Scar
Jo controversy happened, right?
Like, oh, with using her voice.
Using her voice, right.
I was like.
That day, I was like, we shoulddo the same thing to him.
We should steal his voice and weshould, we should create, uh, an
(14:34):
LLM, uh, basically a brain, likea chatbot loaded in with all his
information, all his interviews,everything, and interview that.
Wow.
And the creation of that was an,and then deepfake, an actor, right.
Get an actor.
You have to have an actoractually sit in the chair, get,
have an actor sit in the chair.
(14:55):
So I interviewed Rain Wilson for it.
No way.
He said no.
Oh.
He was like this.
He was like, wait, you'renot gonna use my face.
Fuck you.
He was great.
Um, is that the film?
It is in the film.
Great.
I interviewed, um, Michael IanBlack and uh, John Cameron Mitchell.
(15:15):
And see,
these are great names.
So how are you getting these guys?
Is this through your agent?
Is this through Kevin Hart?
So Rain came through.
I think I'm going the wrong way.
That's all right.
We're we're walking.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Rain came through.
Kevin, uh, John Cameron Mitchellis a friend of a friend and
(15:36):
I've known him for a long time.
Really sweet guy, awesome guy.
And then Michael Lee in Blackalso came through Kevin.
Cool.
And okay.
Um, obviously we, I reached out to alot of other people who, who didn't even
want to do the, the audition, but yeah.
So we had to deep fake the actor.
(15:57):
But here's where thestory really opens up.
'cause I just basically ascribed toyou the first 20 minutes of the movie.
Where the story really opens up is atthat point I go, I'm in San Francisco
and I'm trying to find somebody to dothis work, like a company to do this
work, but no one wants to do it 'causethey're all scared of Sam Altman.
Right.
So I find this guy on the internetin India, who it's called the Indian
(16:19):
Deep Faker, and he has a bunch ofviral videos and it's, it's one of
the funniest scenes in the movie.
I'm like explaining to him what Iwant to do and telling him like every,
it's like no one wants to do this inAmerica and like, would he consider,
and he's like, yeah, I'm down.
Come on, come, come overto push car, come to India.
And so then like, then we're ona plane going to India and trying
(16:39):
to figure out how to do that.
So it really opens up.
To like a whole other, and that's thefitzcarraldo piece where it's like
pushing the boat up the, up the mountain,carrying the, carrying the boat over
the mountain, which is like creatingthis, this fake Sam Altman, right?
This, that I call sambot, creatingthe sambot, getting doing the
(16:59):
interview, which is a whole ordeal.
In India, we, we did the interview,but then coming back to the US
with Sambot and living with it.
Living with it for like.
Months.
Oh my God, I didn't know this levelof connect and my put like, it
becomes like part of my family.
Oh man,
yeah,
this sounds so, I can'twait to see this movie.
And I, it's, it's, it gets weird.
(17:20):
It's sad.
That's what I like most about it,I think, is that it just goes.
Places where you don't expect itto go, it just gets fucking weird.
Well, and I know you have to go'cause you have another interview.
So, you know, last question here,and this is a big one, but we talk
a lot in the podcast so far aboutthe future of documentary, right?
And you're a, a very interesting personto ask this question because you've
(17:42):
just made a documentary about ai.
We're at this pivotal time where peopleare, you know, watching more TikTok
than they are long form documentaries.
Uh, they're making like half the amountof TV shows that they've ever made before.
Essentially, it feels like ourindustry's a little bit in peril and it's
because of large part new technology.
So, as somebody who makes long formdocs and who has just made one about
(18:05):
new technology, like where do yousee the state of the industry now?
Where do you see it going?
Like what, what did you learnfrom making this film basically?
Yeah.
I mean, that's a hard question to unpack.
I think that I definitely, I haveto say not, and not, I guess not
so much for documentaries, butdocumentaries are a part of this.
I was really excited and proudof Sean Baker and everything
(18:30):
he achieved at the Oscars.
'cause that's great.
For independent film, a moviethat was made for $6 million.
That was in the theaters.
People went to the theaters to see it.
I mean, granted it was the, thelowest attendance in theaters
of any best picture winner.
But still,
but it won five Oscars,it won five Oscars.
We're we're talking about a Nora.
Yeah.
So I, I, I think, at least for thetime being, that's, that's gonna, I.
(18:54):
It lifts, you know, a rising tidelifts all boats and I think that that
will carry over into documentaries.
The one thing I'm seeing that goesbeyond technology that's actually really
disturbing to me is like, you see amovie like no other Land, and I was with
those guys, I hung out with those guys atthe, um, cinema Ion a couple months ago.
(19:15):
They just won the Oscar.
They couldn't get their film distributed.
No one would touch it.
It was too, too hot.
Right?
Like no one would touch it.
And that, that's alittle disturbing to me.
And that obviously hasnothing to do with technology.
Mm-hmm.
And,
and that's the film about, um, therelationship between a Israeli and a Yeah.
Gaza.
It's, it's,
it's a, it's, yeah, it's a filmabout Gaza, both the one filmmaker's
(19:37):
Palestinian and the other's Israeli.
That's quite disturbing and Ihope that we can get past that.
Mm-hmm.
But.
I am em very emboldened by a Noraand what happened at the Oscars
and uh, I think that'll be.
At least for the time being willbe really good for independent
films and docu documentaries thatspecifically should go to to theatrical.
(20:00):
Mm-hmm.
So
this is inter, it sounds like whatyou're saying, docs, I feel, I feel
like I feel good about the state ofaffairs, at least for a few years
because of the success of an aura.
What Sean was able to do with that.
Mm-hmm.
It was pretty, pretty incredible.
Yeah.
It, it's, so, I expected youto go totally the other way.
That's really interesting that youhave like a rosy positive view of
(20:21):
the future of this after having madean AI documentary, so that's great.
Yeah.
'cause we, we've heard the oppositeargument a lot lately, so I'm
glad we're hearing a, uh, sort ofa positive view, a rosy picture.
Yeah.
I mean, I wouldn't call it rosy.
I would, but I, and, and, and I probablywouldn't be talking like this if it.
Hadn't happened at theOscars, but like it was pretty
(20:41):
unprecedented what Sean achieved.
And like, I'm hearing peoplein the industry talking like
about indie film coming back.
But in a real way, you know, you,you guys make, uh, indie, you guys
make fictional indie films too, so.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I think there's going to bemore of a place for that, at least in
the next, at least in the near future.
(21:04):
When this
movie comes out, what do youwant people to take away from it?
What I want people to takeaway from it for sure.
Like AI is scary, right?
There's parts of it thatare, that are for sure scary.
I think AI is like a toddler, very,very smart toddler that we're raising.
You know, we have to be really carefulhow we raise it, but I think we're,
(21:24):
I think we're going to be okay.
I think this gate's all gonna be okay.
And Rosie On Rosie.
Yeah.
So I, so I'm hoping thatpeople watch the movie.
I, I, I think the audience for this movieis cer is, is basically anybody who has
an interest in ai, but also people whoare kind of slightly concerned about
how it's gonna affect their future.
(21:46):
And so I hope they see it.
And what I took away from it asa filmmaker is that it's just
another tool in the toolkit for us.
It's not going to, to take all our jobs.
There's a line at the end of the movie,which wraps it all back to Terminator
two, where I'm like, the T one thousand'snot coming for my job anytime soon.
Like that's sort of what I, what I,what I gleaned from the year long
(22:09):
process of, of, of making the movie.
I. Awesome
man.
Rosie on, Rosie is right.
Yeah.
Two, I I love it.
Disappointed.
You guys are, I'm, I'mpleasantly surprised.
Sounds like you've been getting a lot of,uh, uh, uh, ne negativity in your podcast.
I think people,
people are, people are concerned,people are scared, but here you are,
you're on the eve of your premiere.
I would, I would hope that you'reconfident and excited for the future.
(22:32):
Sure.
Yeah.
That's, that's where you should be.
Yes.
Thank you for doing this, man.
It was great to reconnectand hang out for a minute.
Awesome.
Cool.
Alright, man.
Well, I'll see you, uh, at the, atthe premiere tomorrow night or, yeah.
Yeah.
I
appreciate it.
It was fun.
Yeah, looking forward to seeing it.
It's gonna be exciting.
Cool.
All right.
Thank you guys.
Thanks Adam.
Thank you, Ben.
Yeah, yeah.
(22:52):
All right.
Walking out of Adam Bal Low'shotel room, and I have to admit
feeling a little bit rosy.
Um, I'm glad to know.
He sees a, a path forward, um, and doesn'tfeel like the AI is going to infringe on
all of our rights, our jobs, our ideas.
And I have to say, I mean, I've,he's reflecting a feeling that I
(23:14):
think I have in my gut as far as itbeing another tool in the toolbox.
And it kinda gets back to thatoff repeated quote that I don't
know who said it, but I should.
Um, AI isn't coming to take your job.
The person who knows how to use ai.
Is coming to get your job.
Ah,
I like that.
So, so that's a vote to embrace AIand learn it rather than run from
(23:36):
it and start wringing your hands.
I think there's enough handwringing in this world.
I'm, I'm ready to be Roy.
Um, I like it, man.
I was not expecting thatfrom you or from Adam.
And I'm glad that we got more ofa dose of like, no, we gotta be
PT Barnum, we gotta be showman.
We gotta, we gotta be theT 2000, we gotta be T 2000.
And, uh, I'll be back
(23:56):
and persevere.
Let's, uh, let's hit the corner.
Let's leave that there.
Let's hit the cornerand just take some tone.
'cause we never get enough of that.
It's true.
Oh,
okay.
This is tone for on the street.
Oh, boy.
Right.
Is a, uh, party bus is coming.
All right.
Here we go.
(24:18):
Woo hoo.
I gotta go sign up and get my badge.
All right, let's do it.
All right.
Cutting for now.
Bye everybody.
Thanks.
Doc Walkers
next time on Doc Walks with Ben and Keith.
There's no Keith.
Ben's off to New York City to walkand talk with filmmaker Matt Wolf,
(24:40):
director of the new Peewee Hermandocumentary premiering this week on HBO.
Check it out.
Doc Walks is created, produced, and editedby my friend Ben Steinhower of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend KeithMaitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
(25:01):
Follow us at Doc Walks Podon Instagram X and YouTube.
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