June 5, 2025 • 37 mins
Walk and talk with ZODIAC KILLER PROJECT director Charlie Shackleton as he recounts the challenges (& opportunities) of bringing a film to new life after losing access to the subject. Ben & Keith explore Charlie’s love-hate relationship with true crime and the way his film twists up familiar tropes. Never one to accept creative defeat, Charlie extolls the virtues of having a close collaboration with your entertainment lawyer and takes us back to the inspiration of Nick Broomfield as a basis for overcoming rejection on screen. The three filmmakers have a lot of laughs and together decide to start a cult! Join them… for this episode of Doc Walks.
00:00 Welcome to Doc Walks: South by Southwest Day
00:49 Meeting Charlie Shackleton: A Unique Filmmaker
02:42 The Zodiac Killer Project: A Film About Failure
04:13 Overcoming Obstacles: The Making of Zodiac Killer Project
07:41 Archival Films and Legal Battles
11:17 Influences and Inspirations: The Filmmakers Who Shaped Charlie
15:28 Pitching and Funding: The Journey to Create Zodiac Killer Project
17:48 A Twist on True Crime: Charlie's Unique Approach
19:56 Starting a New Cult: A Filmmaker's Perspective
20:23 Intentional Critique in Documentary Filmmaking
22:08 Navigating Personal Involvement in Documentaries
25:32 The Reality of Developing Multiple Projects
29:13 Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers
34:24 Concluding Thoughts and Future Episodes
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Doc Walks.
This is your intro
and this is South by SouthwestDay three, or is it day two?
It doesn't even matter.
No, I guess it doesn't matter.
I don't know, but Ben, well, it's daysomething because you can hear in Ben's
voice that he has been talking up a storm.
He's been doc walking with doc filmmakers,he's been meeting with advertising
and agents and doing his day job of.
(00:23):
Being a commercial impresario.
That's right.
I've been at many parties
shouting over loud music.
So my voice, uh, is destroyed already.
Just a couple days into the festival.
I'm mostly antisocial, so itworks out fine that my voice
is as, as always well rested.
Yeah, you sound, uh,buttery and smooth as usual.
Dulce tones from head to toe.
(00:44):
So we're here this morning.
Uh, it's freezing cold, whichis never the case at South by.
Uh, we're out in front of the HiltonGarden Inn waiting for Charlie Shackleton.
Yep.
Charlie's movie, ZodiacKiller Project made.
Its south by debut Last night.
He had his world premiereat Sundance last month.
We tried to get in, couldn't get in,um, in Park City, so I was thrilled when
(01:06):
I got a chance to see it last night.
It is a different kind of film.
He is a different kind of filmmaker.
You will hear in his voice.
He's from a different land altogether.
And he also sounds like the kind ofguy who makes like personal film.
So I'll be curious to hear what he saysabout going on that journey and you
know, being a main character basically.
Yeah, I got to chat with him just alittle last night and, uh, I'm already
(01:28):
looking forward to this time together.
He's smart, he's funny, and he is got apoint of view that I don't think we've
encountered on this podcast just yet.
You, you mean British?
Basically,
oh, and I think here he is, right here
on your left.
You're listening to DocWalk with Ben and Keith.
(01:53):
You know what, I was on, uh, I was on thephone to my friend back in London last
night, just as the bats began flying.
Oh, wow.
And she, and, and it immediately,it was just this insane chorus.
Of the, the bats screeching as wellas like six different sirens that
seemed to go past in that moment.
Was your friend?
It sounded like I'd conjure itartificially to try and convince
(02:17):
her that I was in Austin.
Was your friend concerned for your safety?
Well, just sort of annoyed.
I think She's not that sympathetic.
Let's see.
Charlie, could you giveme a little bit of, um.
Yes,
a test please.
So 1, 2, 3.
Hello.
I'll try looking in a couple ofdifferent directions in case I start.
(02:39):
You Sound sightseeing.
Fantastic.
Oh, I guess we should do an intro.
We are walking down 17th Street nearGuadalupe with Charlie Shackleton,
filmmaker from London visiting Austinto share his film Zodiac Killer Project.
Well done easily itself by Southwest.
(03:00):
Easily gotten wrong.
That title.
I've had all manner of Zodiac FilmProject, Zodiac documentary, et cetera.
So welcome, welcome, CharlieShackleton, welcome to Austin.
Welcome back to South by Southwest.
I know it's not your first time.
Um, and thank you for, uh, thank you forhaving me at your screening last night.
(03:21):
I'm thrilled, uh, to talk aboutthe film from the point of view of
somebody who loves this subject.
Uh, I was intrigued by your approachand is so eager to understand where
your process, uh, started and ended.
And, uh, but also share with Ben who.
We will be wandering aimlesslythrough the streets of Austin,
wondering what we're talking about.
(03:41):
'cause he didn't get a chance to
see it.
Yeah.
And I'm very bad at explainingthis film, so you may have to do
half of the legwork, but we'll see.
Well now wait a second.
Don't you narrate, uh, the entire film
Exactly.
And it takes me 92 minutes to explain it.
So how am I gonna do it now to you?
We don't
have, yeah, we don'thave that kind of time.
Not quite,
not quite that well.
Um, but if you would, to get backto Ben's initial question, could you
(04:06):
give us, uh, your best encapsulationof what Zodiac Killer Project is?
Sure.
For our audience whoprobably hasn't seen it yet.
So, Zodiac Killer Project is afilm about my failed attempt to
make a true crime documentary.
So I had been trying to adaptthis memoir into a. Documentary
(04:28):
about the Zodiac Killer and aboutone specific suspect in the case.
And as I was in, uh, pre-production and,and developing the story, the negotiations
for the rights to that book fell through.
And so I sort of licked my woundsand tried to move on to other
(04:50):
projects, but had done so much,like even beyond the actual like.
Practical work that hadbeen done on the film.
I had made the mistake of kind of inmy brain conceptualizing the entire
thing and sort of, you know, down towhat it was gonna look like, how it
was gonna flow, narratively, et cetera.
(05:12):
And I really couldn't kindof leave it behind me.
I couldn't let it go and would findmyself like recounting to friends.
In bars sequences from this imaginedfilm, I would now never get to make
Right.
The the one that got away.
Yeah.
Which obviously we've all doneand I, you know, it's happened
to me many times before andeventually you just get over it.
But on this occasion, it, yeah, it was sosort of enduring that I started thinking
(05:36):
about that as a potential subject fora film, that feeling of frustration
and kind of thwarted creative ambition.
I. I made a lot of films that arekind of just people telling well-worn
stories, and by this point I'd toldthis story so many times and I was like,
well, now I have a well-worn story.
(05:58):
And so, yeah, I, I started working on,on this film, Zodiac Killer Project.
And the way it kind of flow, the wayit sort of is structured is that.
In real time.
I'm just describing what that other filmwould've been, which sounds boring and
some people is definitely, for me, it
doesn't sound boring to me.
It sounds like you took the inabilityto gain access and made a film about
(06:23):
that challenge, about that hurdle.
So in doing that, did you knowright away that you would be the.
This sort of narrator that takesus through this journey, or how did
you start to think about it when youknew that you couldn't let this idea
go and you had to go make the film?
Yeah, I, I mean, even when, like, whenit first fell through, I genuinely
was very, like, just devastated.
(06:44):
And I happened to be in Vallejo, um,where the Zodiac Killers crimes took
place when I found out, because I'dbeen screening a film, another film
of mine in, in, uh, San Francisco.
And so I took the ferry over.
I was looking around at likepotential locations, uh, when I
(07:05):
heard that it had fallen through.
And even then, even in thatdisappointment, I think there was probably
a little glimmer of possibility in mymind because I, I know that so many
of my films have come from some sortof limit, from some sort of obstacle.
I don't think I'm the filmmakerwho works very well with.
(07:25):
Absolute freedom.
I sort of need something to pushagainst and this obviously was an
enormous thing to push against.
Wow, interesting.
Tell it, go more into it, like I've,tell me about some of your other films.
Are they also true crime stories thatyou had to fight for access to, or
it's more, I, I think it's like, likeI've made a lot of archival films
(07:45):
and obviously when you work witharchival material to some extent,
there is a finite limit on what exists.
Um, so for instance, I made a shortfilm about, um, about a legal case
in in Britain in the early nineties,late eighties, which was about a
group of gay and bisexual men who wereprosecuted for having, uh, a series
(08:11):
of sader masochistic sex parties.
And this set a very, sort of significantprecedent in British law around consent
because it was basically decidedthat their consent to participate.
Uh, in these sex parties was nota defense to having quote unquote,
assaulted one another and aidedand abetted assaults on themselves.
(08:35):
Um, wow.
So it was this very bizarre case.
Um, needless to say, very, in myopinion, homophobically motivated.
But the only reason they'd beenable to even know that these things
took place, because obviously itwas a victimless crime, right?
No one was reporting this to the police.
It was because the men hadvideotapes, the parties.
(08:58):
And so obviously when I began workingon it, the first thing I wondered
is like, uh, do these tapes exist?
Right?
Police still have them.
Do any of the men involved?
Still have them?
And so I, you know, I spent like18 months fighting this freedom of
information battle back and forth withthe police who, you know, blocked my
(09:18):
every attempt to access any of this stuff.
I think ultimately.
The tapes probably aren't in theirpossession anyway, but they wouldn't
even get to the point of telling me whatthey had, let alone giving it to me.
And so that film likewisestarted from a position of.
Not being able to get or look at oraccess the, the thing that felt to some
extent, like it was the core of the thing.
(09:38):
Mm. Um,
I love that you use frustrationas a driving, uh, energizer,
as like a, isn't it always?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think we all do, and I thinkmost of us take our frustration
and, and, you know, pivot and, andkind of try and put, end up putting
lipstick on a pig sometimes, butyou, it seems like refuse to, uh.
(09:59):
To hide behind the limitation, butinstead you highlight the limitation.
Right.
That's certainly what you do here,is that the, the short, uh, the, I'm
sorry, the archival film that you'redescribing, what is it called and, and
how did you respond to that frustration?
So it's called lasting marks.
Okay.
And it's, um, which isa great accent test.
I find.
It was always fun going to the USto screener because, uh, everyone
(10:20):
enjoys hearing me say lasting marks.
Um, yeah.
'cause we would say lasting marks.
Would you, you'd put, you'd do your hard.
Say it like that.
Would you do the hard R on marks still?
How would you say LA lasting marks.
Lasting marks.
Last lasting marks, right?
We can go last lasting.
Man.
Man.
Okay.
And so, so again, this is a story aboutsomething that you needed to basically
(10:44):
work really hard to gain access to.
You don't ultimately gain theaccess, but you find a new way.
To tell the story and to bring it
to life.
Yeah.
Maybe one day I'll actually like, getaccess to anything and then I can make,
make something that I actually, uh,
well, that's, I mean, it's such aninteresting al almost like stoic idea
that like the obstacle is the way, right?
(11:05):
Like instead of, you know, turningaway from it and going in the
opposite direction or giving up onthe project altogether, you decided,
no, this is actually what will informthe project and help me make it.
Which is not everybodywould do, I don't think.
And that's like a really beautiful wayto sort of approach not only making a
film, but also life in general, like,so is that, um, were you inspired
(11:27):
by other filmmakers that do that?
And did you work, were you sortof working with somebody else's?
Were as, as a ref, uh,work as a reference.
I'm trying to think.
I mean, definitely yeah, like,
like that sort of like provocation.
It is very appealing to me, bothas a filmmaker and a viewer.
I mean, the way, the way I sort offell in love with documentary as a
(11:49):
kid, somewhat predictably was watchinga lot of those sort of quite punky,
provocative, like plucky, you know,roving camera type documentarians like.
Well, specifically, I was gonnasay Michael Moore, who I, I,
yeah.
Was success with as kidor, or Nick Broomfield.
But Nick Broomfield was
a big one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I remember having, as a teenager,having the, like Nick Broomfield,
(12:13):
DVD box set and the idea, especiallyhim as a sort of like unlikely, quite
unassuming, slightly awkward and shufflingBritish figure, like bumbling into these
very fraught situations, but sort ofrefusing to back down at every limit.
That definitely did have an influence.
I remember one of his, one of his sortof lesser known films that I'd never
(12:36):
really heard anyone talking about.
It's a film called Tracking Down Maggie.
Mm. I don't know that one.
Which is
it?
It sort of, in some wayslike a, a familiar premise.
It's just him trying to get aninterview with Margaret Thatcher.
Oh.
I was hoping it was gonna be Maggie Smith.
It's a, it's a post post PrimeMinister Margaret Thatcher.
(12:57):
She's in her retirement ormaybe she's still an mp.
At that time, uh, but she's on abook tour and he's trying to get an
interview with her and she refuses.
And obviously there's a thousandfilms like this where it's just
about trying to get the interview.
You're never gonna get.
Roger and me, obviously.
Yeah.
Or, or last night our, um, uh,somebody else we interviewed who's
a friend of ours, Adam Ball, Lowe'smovie, deep Faking Sam Alman.
(13:20):
That's the premise.
Oh, is that also the premise of that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's trying to get to SamAlman and can't do it,
and it's, you know, it's, itproduced lots of good movies.
Um, and this one probably isn'teven a particularly remarkable
example of the sub genre.
But it was maybe the first one I'dseen and the directions in which that
sends him off spinning because he'sobviously so hopelessly unable to get
(13:44):
an interview with Margaret Thatcher.
I found very like stimulating andinteresting as a, as a prospect.
Yeah.
That that could be.
A film that, that could be a documentary.
I really love that too.
Like taking the audience along for theride and they're sort of, um, complicit in
picking the film with you sort of thing.
(14:05):
Yeah.
And you're, and that you'rewrapped into the, into the
process of the production as well.
Like there's such huge sueess of that filmand just Nick Broomfield, like talking
to Margaret Thatcher's publicist, she's,she's a much bigger character in the
film than Margaret Thatcher Inevitably.
Well, and that it shows you howshe's protected and how hard it is.
(14:26):
You know, how media trainedcelebrities are, and you know, it
gives you a interesting lens throughwhich to look at someone like her.
Um, so that's fascinating.
So are you, are you going to continue onthis route with your next film project?
Do you have somethingelse you're working on?
It's weird to imagine makingthat like your, um, your kind of.
(14:50):
Staple your signature asa documentary filmmaker.
'cause I obviously can't like,produce limitations for myself.
You know, I can't like forcea situation where I, uh.
Have to think outside the box or whatever.
I love how, uh, you turn like legaldocuments in conversations with lawyers
into riveting, uh, documentary cinema,
(15:11):
at least half of last night's q and awas, uh, Charlie extolling the virtue
of his relationship with his attorney.
I love my lawyer.
Oh, so he's my, yeah, he's myprimary creative collaborator.
I want to, uh, I wanna, I wish you hadcredited him as such when you said that
in the q and a. I thought that Yeah.
Co-director.
Yeah.
Let's pivot back to the makingof Zodiac Killer Project.
(15:32):
In the beginning, when you make thedecision, I can't make the film I
wanna make, but I'm gonna make thisother film instead, what is the
process for pitching and funding?
Are you sticking your neck out and goingdeep on spec to win people over with, with
a, with a really strong proof of concept?
Or are you setting meetings and.
(15:53):
Calling up old collaborators and tryingto convince them to give you one more
shot or you, you knocking on new doors andsaying, let's break new ground together.
How's it work?
So I always feel, uh, almost like guiltytelling this part of the story, uh,
because it was insanely blissfully easy.
Oh.
(16:13):
Which is never the
case.
Well, you should feel guilty.
I know.
Oh man.
And certainly has not.
That is never the case, not been thecase for me, uh, with any other project.
But yeah, after, after a lot of like, as Isay, false starts, once I did conceive of
this film that I actually made rather thanthe one I didn't make, I went to Field
(16:34):
of Vision with whom I'd worked before acouple of times, including actually on
that short that I talked about before.
Lasting marks.
Lasting marks.
And um, yeah.
And then I basically just, I mean, I'dmade a little kind of, uh, pitch video.
Essentially just kind of much likethe finished film, just me kind of
rambling through the idea, um, withsome various visual reference points.
(16:58):
Showed them that, and I think it was bothgood timing in that they were looking
to start a couple of new projects, butalso Yeah, incredibly they were able
to see it and had faith that this wouldactually make sense, uh, as a film at
some point, which I think even I did not.
(17:18):
Totally believe at that point.
Wow.
Um, so your
financiers had the vision at timesthat even when you didn't, that is,
that's a rare case.
Very rare.
Yeah.
Lawyers, phenomen, financiers, easy money.
This is a Charlie.
This case is against all eyes.
I know
you are a unicorn in thefield of documentary.
Truly.
(17:38):
Um, and I, and that to always be theredirect man, but I want to come back.
For our audience who hasn't seen thefilm, uh, I don't exactly know what.
Simple label you would apply.
Um, but the label that I've heardthrown around for this project
and, and others, including one I'mworking on, is a twist on true crime.
I don't know if that's the way youwould put it, but it, it is not
(17:58):
a standard true crime approach.
And if anything, I would sayI saw last night a skewering
of true crime in a, in a way.
But how would you describeyour relationship in this
film to true crime and why?
Yeah, it's fine.
Like the thing I always forget thatobviously to some extent it does still
play as a true crime film becausethe, the form of it is me, you know,
(18:21):
perfectly replicating what the narrativebeats of the unmade film would've been.
So at its best, hopefully, if, ifpeople get into it, you have the
sensation of watching that film,even though you're not watching it.
So it, yeah, it has sort of the,the rhythm of a true crime film.
It has the structure of a truecrime film, just sort of without
(18:43):
any of the actual meat of the thing.
Um, and it, my relationship to it,it's funny, like the thing that co
crops up again and again and again inreviews inevitably, is the phrase love
hate, which I get because obviouslyI, I express a lot of affection for
the genre in the film while also.
(19:06):
Kind of taking the piss out of it.
Parodying, uh, some ofits more hackneyed tropes.
To me, the aim with the filmwas to express the sort of
the, the, just the sort, almost like theneutrality of how I, and it seems like
(19:27):
a lot of people relate to true crime.
It's like, it's almostlike a passive thing.
It's just so, you know, saturated in our.
Culture and especially in the documentaryindustry, as you two both know.
Um,
yeah, what is it?
The three Cs, yourpure, uh, pitch project.
You have to have one of the three Cs,
crime, celebrity and cult and cults cult.
(19:48):
I was wondering what the third one was.
I feel like the cults havegone a little out of fashion.
There's only, there's onlyso many of 'em, right?
They've run out of cults.
Yeah.
I mean, there's an opening, right?
Like start a new cult and you'reguaranteed, you know, some airtime.
And so I think like the.
That actually might be I, that feelslike an Adam Bhala Lough doc right there.
I was just
gonna say that sounds like somebodythat's maybe your next film.
(20:09):
Charlie, you start,
Charlie, start a cult andit'll be our next film.
Yeah.
If the limitation isthere are no cults left.
Starting one is a beautiful, all right.
We just to Charlie and
he's gonna start premises onpremises here on Dock Walks.
How much of this is purposeful inyour mind versus, uh, sort of like
accidental in the way that we weretalking about Nick Broomfield's films
(20:31):
being a comment on Margaret Thatcherbecause he can't get to her, right?
Like, are you meaning to comment onthe genre or are you just so enamored
with the story that, that you'remaking it however you can and then
that's a happy, uh, coincidence?
It's definitely intentional, but Isuppose for me it was almost like.
(20:54):
That critique just rose inevitably outof the way that I would find myself and
my friends talking about this stuff.
It's like, you know, I know a lot of otherdocumentary filmmakers, including many
who've made true crime films, and whenthey talk about working in their field,
they're not talking in these like, youknow, sober austere terms about like the,
(21:17):
the gravity of the story or whatever.
Like anything else, when you're in it.
You talk about it in quite a kindof playful, glib way and you know,
you have like dark humor about itand you're confronted constantly
by the seriousness of it, butalso the sort of absurdity of it.
And so the, the real sort of intentionalthing was trying to capture that strange,
(21:43):
almost kind of amoral tone that I think alot of this stuff is, is conjured within.
Um, and I knew inevitably thatthat would like, mean the film
was a critique of true crime.
So that was very inevitable.
I see.
Uh, I mean intentional, uh, as wellas the, the possibility, uh, that
(22:05):
I seem like a bit of a smug jerk.
You know, I had a, I had asimilar experience where my, my
first feature doc to make, andI'd made lots of other shorts.
I never even narrated any of them.
But my first feature.
It was a movie called Winnebago Man.
And very quickly the movie became myrelationship to the guy who was the
(22:27):
star of this accidental viral video.
And it happened so organically thatI didn't really think about it a
whole lot during the productionbecause I was so busy talking him
into participating and trying todeal with how difficult he was being.
But when I, when we got into theedit, I started to realize like,
oh, this is, there's so many things.
(22:49):
But I should have done differently,uh, or the, or so many ways this could
go wrong, being the, um, the both thedirector and the star of the movie.
Um, and so I think I was luckythat I just wasn't like carrying
that neurosis, you know?
Uh, but now if I were to do that, I thinkI would be much more self-conscious.
(23:10):
So was there a level for you, knowingthat you were narrating and that you're
a character in the film in some way?
Like were you sort of.
Trying to avoid certaintropes, or, I think I was, I
was definitely
like,
yeah, by contrast with yoursituation, obviously I was very,
(23:32):
very consciously inserting myself.
You know, I, I, I could have done it otherways and instead I chose to not only.
Plaster my voice all over thefilm, but even, uh, you know,
film those voiceover sessions.
Ooh, I'll sign it.
Yeah, I mean, not this way.
I was just
gonna say we can do one morelap 'cause we're pretty close to
(23:54):
where we started and I feel Yeah.
This is his hotel.
Maybe we do, yeah.
Do we just do one more quick?
That's what I was thinking, but
it's this, this east, west is what'skilling us, is what's killing us.
Either way, we're gonna,or we just go back down.
Let's just go back down
and it is, uh, yeah, we'vegot about 10 more minutes.
I wanna respect your time here.
Yeah.
So, um,
let's just go down anotherblock and then come back.
Okay.
Sounds good.
Um, and I, I don't wantto like cut you short.
(24:15):
You were No, no.
You, you were mostly answeredthrough that question.
Yeah.
Um, let's get to the other sideof like, where this building
does and get into some wrap up.
Um, I, I'll let, yeah, I'll let youfinish the, the thought, so, no, no.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Oh,
oh, this
is,
wow.
Yeah, I really
got, once
we get over here, you
should be all right.
Yeah.
And if we aren't, we canalso just stand still.
(24:35):
We don't have to keep
No, totally up to you.
Well, let's see.
I think, yeah, I think Keith's right.
Once we get in front of thisbuilding, it should be up nice.
It'll better
here.
Let's stand in.
We'd always take refuge behind
this,
this little improvised sound booththat, that wouldn't look weird.
This little all glory hole setup,whatever's going on back there.
(24:57):
Here.
Let's try it.
Actually, I think this might.
Yep.
Yeah, I mean I think ithas been phone to very
private moments.
A lot going on.
Yeah,
a lot going on.
We just inadvertently walked intoan outdoor toilet, is what happened.
Um, but this is good right here actually.
Okay.
So yeah, this is, okay.
So Charlie, I think Keithbrings up a great point.
We should probably redirect here, besome sort, have, have a, uh, shape this
(25:21):
in some way that we're learning to do.
We're novices here, but, um, one ofthe things we hope people get out
of this is, these are other workingdocumentarians, listening to advice
from other working documentarians.
So as somebody who makes documentaryfor a living, can you just talk
about your process a little bit?
Like how many projects you're developingat one time, how you choose projects
to develop, that sort of thing.
(25:42):
Yeah, so I inevitably have.
An absolutely unfathomable number ofprojects happening at any one time.
I like it.
And when I say happening, I meanhappening in the least meaningful sense.
They're like crawling along with nomoney and no activity whatsoever.
Well, let's drill down into that.
(26:02):
So like, is it, are you talking aboutlike, you'll read an article, for
example and reach out to, uh, theauthor of the article and then so I
will establish a relationship like that,
or I have, I have a folder on my computer.
That is, uh, that saysit's called like projects.
And within that folder there are threeother folders and one is, uh, completed.
(26:27):
So obviously feel good about all those.
The other is, uh, abandoned andthat's got like 50 sub folders
of ideas, both like actuallymeaningful to me that I have mourned.
And like so crap and insubstantialthat I barely remember having
fleeting thoughts.
Literal.
(26:47):
Yeah.
I will start a new folder inthere at the drop of a hat.
It does not need to haveany value at all as an idea.
Partly because as you both knowthat you never know when something's
gonna suddenly seem relevant again.
And
you can drag one folder off from,uh, from one and folders move other.
Oh, what a feeling.
Which you did with this film.
It did, yeah.
You moved the folder
(27:08):
and then Yeah, finally like active.
And I maybe have six or seven things inthere at any one time, so that hopefully
when inevitably these pauses, uh, comeup in projects because you're waiting to
hear back from someone or you're hopingthat something becomes available, I
can try and shift to one of the others.
(27:29):
What that inevitably means is that yougo to film festivals and people are like,
so how long did you work on the film?
And then the answer isalways like seven years.
And they're like, how?
How are you making anything elseif you are taking that long?
Everything.
But it's like seven years staggeredover every other seven year project.
Right?
One of these type years.
I'd love to just like.
Make something in a year.
It must feel incredible.
(27:49):
It must be Well, but I'm surprisedyou're not doing that with your,
uh, easy access to funding.
Well, indeed and your, yourincredibly generous financiers.
And I suppose the
definitions are a littleblurry on that one.
'cause Yes, if you're just talkingabout like the actual production
of the film, I have managed tomake that, it was pretty good.
It was like a year and a half,which I will absolutely take.
(28:10):
Uh, the problem is once you startfactoring in like the failed
film as sort of the same project.
Then we are, you know, we're gettingup into like five, six years.
And, uh, unlike you, Idon't use a folder system.
I have a spreadsheet in GoogleDrive that I refer to as my board.
And so at any point in time I say, I'vegot 21 projects on my board right now.
(28:33):
Um, but it's exactly what you described.
It's a question of, uh, the boardis divided up into, uh, high
priority, low priority and confusion.
And then, uh, I don't even have completed,they just take it off the board.
But maybe I need.
They need to celebrate the
completions.
You need completed for a little feel good.
Yeah.
Like spark.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can, I need that little feel good spark.
(28:53):
Um,
you do, I agree with that.
You need a feel good spark.
That's why I have you, Ben.
Ben is my feel good spark.
That's right.
I'm
the optimist.
He's the, uh, the Eeyore ofthe group, the pessimist.
I'm just grumpy.
Um, okay, so, uh, what advicedo you have for young people?
Who discover that they cannotmake the film that they wanna
(29:16):
make, what should they do?
Do they, uh, rent a 16 millimeter cameraand, uh, and, and do what you did?
Or, or what is your advice?
I think like the, the best advice Icould give, I think, and it applies
here as with so many filming situations,is I think never underestimate
quite how little can be a film.
(29:39):
Like this is somethingI like, I often like.
Talk to film students orlike talk at film schools.
And the thing I observe again and again,I get why this happens, is like people
who are just starting out trying to maketheir first like student film first,
like thesis, documentary, whatever itmight be, and they think it needs to
be about something huge, something thatlike earns its existence as a film.
(30:04):
And so they shoot for these hugetopics, which inevitably as brand
new filmmakers, they're not reallyequipped to handle like it's, it's.
You know, and at worst it's likethey feel like they need to dig into
the absolute most intimate parts oftheir life or their family history.
And it's like you're probably notactually at a place yet where you
can really get a grip on that.
(30:24):
Um, so I'm always like, no,no, it can be almost nothing.
It could be like a goodconversation you had with a friend
or a story that went nowhere.
Um, and this film is obviously, youknow, like a pretty, it's a, it's a
feature length, uh, explication ofthat because it's literally about.
Just nothing.
It's about something that didn't happen.
(30:44):
Um, but I think that's fared me verywell in general, is accepting that
basically anything that interests youin however small way is meaningful and
is something, and is better than likechasing something because you think
someone else is gonna be interested in it.
That's great advice.
I think it's incredible advice.
Yeah.
A story that went nowhere I think is.
(31:07):
Potentially a greattitle for this episode.
Alright, so let's, let'swalk back to your hotel.
Um, and as we do, I want to tell you,uh, a story about when I was a film
student, I had a professor encourage usto write to, uh, filmmakers we admired.
Mm-hmm.
And I was always kind of an arty kid whodidn't like things that were popular.
(31:29):
So I loved, uh, Alan Berliner.
I loved, uh, Ross McElwee.
I love Les Blank.
So I wrote to those guys,uh, they all wrote me back.
Wow.
And Ross McElwee said something verygermane to what you just said, where he
basically, uh, said that what, um, hequoted Wordsworth, which was very Ross
(31:49):
McElwee, you know, being a professor atHarvard and a sort of having a poetic,
um, a narrative style that he has.
Yeah, but he said the, uh, the edgeof meaning never is far from personal
experience or something like that.
Meaning shoot what you have accessto shoot your actual life that
(32:11):
you can then make into, uh, astory that'll be very relatable.
Almost more like the more personal youmake it, the more universal the story is.
And I love that, that you're,you're giving similar advice, like
don't shoot for chasing headlinesin the newspaper necessarily.
Make something that you personallyfeel strongly about and trust that
(32:31):
your audience will follow you there.
Totally.
Yeah.
Is is that a good summationof what you're saying?
Absolutely.
And also I think, you know, it's like,
like my film, you know, has,has certain formal elements that
on paper might sound kind of.
Alienating or oblique.
(32:51):
Um, much of it consists of juststatic shots of nothing happening.
Uh, there's a 10 minutes into thefilm, there's a five minute shot
of a table, um, all of which, yeah,like could sound off putting, I
hope it's on the poster and 10minutes into the film there's
a five minute show at the table
or which could potentially be offputting.
But the thing I always, youknow, said while we were working
(33:13):
on it is like, as long as.
That because that's accompanied by,you know, me telling this story in a
kind of conversational, improvised way.
I was like, that doesn't need to be anymore off-putting than sitting at a table
and talking to someone for five minutes.
Ah,
and indeed, you know, I hope, I mean,not everyone feels this way, but,
(33:34):
but a lot of audiences seem to feelthis way, that actually stuff that's
theoretically experimental or difficultor oblique, if it's just intuitive.
When you watch it and feels like easy tograsp, it needn't be, and like there's
no reason that's any more obliquethan a, a talking head interview.
(33:55):
It's just that you've seen the talkingHead interview 10,000 times before.
So you have this sort of priorrelationship with that, what that means.
Um,
so you're expecting that, but thenyou're giving them something unexpected.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think people will really go withyou if there's, if there's a sense of
it leaning something to you, as you say.
Yeah.
If it feels like.
Someone's actually invested,
(34:17):
right?
Yeah.
The more personal, the more universal.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, this is great.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you.
Walk Sign is on to Cross Guadalupeat twelve eleven, ten nine.
So, uh, I don't know when you're gonnaget a chance to see Charlie's film.
It is seeking Distribution.
(34:37):
I know he's got, uh, the folks atCinetic working, um, to, to make a deal.
Uh, it's a hard film to imagine,you know, showing up on your feed
on Netflix on a Friday night.
I, I would hope the people atHBO would see the value in it.
Maybe it's an Amazon,um, but it's hard to say.
It's hard to say.
It's a unique film.
And so where does a film like that end up?
(34:59):
I don't know.
Well find out.
And, uh, so keep your eyes, uh,peeled for a zodiac killer project.
It sounds right up my alley withmy love of Ross McElwee and.
Um, and, you know, filmmakers willtake you on a journey, Michael Moore.
Uh, so I'm very excited to see itand I really enjoyed meeting Charlie.
So, uh, I hope he gets distributionand I hope, uh, somebody listening
(35:22):
buys it for lots and lots of money.
And I, I hope that the people in ouraudience feel the way that I feel, which
is inspired to lean into the obstacles.
Um, you know, most of thiswork is rejection based.
Um, you know, you gotta, you gottagird yourself to, to take the no's.
But, um.
I talking to Charlie is a reminderthat there's an opportunity for
(35:44):
creativity in that rejection and,um, we ran outta time with him.
But the question I would've askedis at this point, would he, uh, have
preferred to make the film that he setout to make or, um, or to have ended
up where he had, where he did now?
And it's hard to imagine the, uh, theversion of the film that he describes
(36:07):
being more impactful than, uh.
Than, than what he actually created.
Amen.
Well, let's hope, uh, everybody feelsthat way about the films we make.
Let's hope.
Let's hope we can.
Hope.
We can hope.
Alright.
All right.
That's it for now.
I gotta go rest my voice.
Uh, we'll see for the next one.
Thanks everybody.
Thank you.
(36:28):
Next time on Doc Walks.
We've got two episodescoming at you next week.
Episode eight is gonna be a walk and talkwith Indie film Impresario, John Sloss.
He's a sales agent to the starsand leader of Cinetic Media.
He's gonna tell us about his originstory, the 1990s indie film boom, that he
(36:49):
was such a big part of, and his view ofwhat's going on in our industry right now.
What's the marketplace where we headed?
And we've got a bonus episode, Ben and Itake you into the heart of the Austin Film
Society Parking Lot Party here at South bySouthwest, where we're gonna go meet the
people, talk to our friends and colleagueshere from the Austin Film Community.
(37:09):
We hope you'll join us.
We appreciate you.
Catch you next time.
On Doc Walks.
Doc Walks is created, produced, and editedby my friend Ben Steinbauer of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend KeithMaitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
Follow us at Doc Walks Podon Instagram X and YouTube.
Welcome to Doc Walks.
This is your intro
and this is South by SouthwestDay three, or is it day two?
It doesn't even matter.
No, I guess it doesn't matter.
I don't know, but Ben, well, it's daysomething because you can hear in Ben's
voice that he has been talking up a storm.
He's been doc walking with doc filmmakers,he's been meeting with advertising
and agents and doing his day job of.
(00:23):
Being a commercial impresario.
That's right.
I've been at many parties
shouting over loud music.
So my voice, uh, is destroyed already.
Just a couple days into the festival.
I'm mostly antisocial, so itworks out fine that my voice
is as, as always well rested.
Yeah, you sound, uh,buttery and smooth as usual.
Dulce tones from head to toe.
(00:44):
So we're here this morning.
Uh, it's freezing cold, whichis never the case at South by.
Uh, we're out in front of the HiltonGarden Inn waiting for Charlie Shackleton.
Yep.
Charlie's movie, ZodiacKiller Project made.
Its south by debut Last night.
He had his world premiereat Sundance last month.
We tried to get in, couldn't get in,um, in Park City, so I was thrilled when
(01:06):
I got a chance to see it last night.
It is a different kind of film.
He is a different kind of filmmaker.
You will hear in his voice.
He's from a different land altogether.
And he also sounds like the kind ofguy who makes like personal film.
So I'll be curious to hear what he saysabout going on that journey and you
know, being a main character basically.
Yeah, I got to chat with him just alittle last night and, uh, I'm already
(01:28):
looking forward to this time together.
He's smart, he's funny, and he is got apoint of view that I don't think we've
encountered on this podcast just yet.
You, you mean British?
Basically,
oh, and I think here he is, right here
on your left.
You're listening to DocWalk with Ben and Keith.
(01:53):
You know what, I was on, uh, I was on thephone to my friend back in London last
night, just as the bats began flying.
Oh, wow.
And she, and, and it immediately,it was just this insane chorus.
Of the, the bats screeching as wellas like six different sirens that
seemed to go past in that moment.
Was your friend?
It sounded like I'd conjure itartificially to try and convince
(02:17):
her that I was in Austin.
Was your friend concerned for your safety?
Well, just sort of annoyed.
I think She's not that sympathetic.
Let's see.
Charlie, could you giveme a little bit of, um.
Yes,
a test please.
So 1, 2, 3.
Hello.
I'll try looking in a couple ofdifferent directions in case I start.
(02:39):
You Sound sightseeing.
Fantastic.
Oh, I guess we should do an intro.
We are walking down 17th Street nearGuadalupe with Charlie Shackleton,
filmmaker from London visiting Austinto share his film Zodiac Killer Project.
Well done easily itself by Southwest.
(03:00):
Easily gotten wrong.
That title.
I've had all manner of Zodiac FilmProject, Zodiac documentary, et cetera.
So welcome, welcome, CharlieShackleton, welcome to Austin.
Welcome back to South by Southwest.
I know it's not your first time.
Um, and thank you for, uh, thank you forhaving me at your screening last night.
(03:21):
I'm thrilled, uh, to talk aboutthe film from the point of view of
somebody who loves this subject.
Uh, I was intrigued by your approachand is so eager to understand where
your process, uh, started and ended.
And, uh, but also share with Ben who.
We will be wandering aimlesslythrough the streets of Austin,
wondering what we're talking about.
(03:41):
'cause he didn't get a chance to
see it.
Yeah.
And I'm very bad at explainingthis film, so you may have to do
half of the legwork, but we'll see.
Well now wait a second.
Don't you narrate, uh, the entire film
Exactly.
And it takes me 92 minutes to explain it.
So how am I gonna do it now to you?
We don't
have, yeah, we don'thave that kind of time.
Not quite,
not quite that well.
Um, but if you would, to get backto Ben's initial question, could you
(04:06):
give us, uh, your best encapsulationof what Zodiac Killer Project is?
Sure.
For our audience whoprobably hasn't seen it yet.
So, Zodiac Killer Project is afilm about my failed attempt to
make a true crime documentary.
So I had been trying to adaptthis memoir into a. Documentary
(04:28):
about the Zodiac Killer and aboutone specific suspect in the case.
And as I was in, uh, pre-production and,and developing the story, the negotiations
for the rights to that book fell through.
And so I sort of licked my woundsand tried to move on to other
(04:50):
projects, but had done so much,like even beyond the actual like.
Practical work that hadbeen done on the film.
I had made the mistake of kind of inmy brain conceptualizing the entire
thing and sort of, you know, down towhat it was gonna look like, how it
was gonna flow, narratively, et cetera.
(05:12):
And I really couldn't kindof leave it behind me.
I couldn't let it go and would findmyself like recounting to friends.
In bars sequences from this imaginedfilm, I would now never get to make
Right.
The the one that got away.
Yeah.
Which obviously we've all doneand I, you know, it's happened
to me many times before andeventually you just get over it.
But on this occasion, it, yeah, it was sosort of enduring that I started thinking
(05:36):
about that as a potential subject fora film, that feeling of frustration
and kind of thwarted creative ambition.
I. I made a lot of films that arekind of just people telling well-worn
stories, and by this point I'd toldthis story so many times and I was like,
well, now I have a well-worn story.
(05:58):
And so, yeah, I, I started working on,on this film, Zodiac Killer Project.
And the way it kind of flow, the wayit sort of is structured is that.
In real time.
I'm just describing what that other filmwould've been, which sounds boring and
some people is definitely, for me, it
doesn't sound boring to me.
It sounds like you took the inabilityto gain access and made a film about
(06:23):
that challenge, about that hurdle.
So in doing that, did you knowright away that you would be the.
This sort of narrator that takesus through this journey, or how did
you start to think about it when youknew that you couldn't let this idea
go and you had to go make the film?
Yeah, I, I mean, even when, like, whenit first fell through, I genuinely
was very, like, just devastated.
(06:44):
And I happened to be in Vallejo, um,where the Zodiac Killers crimes took
place when I found out, because I'dbeen screening a film, another film
of mine in, in, uh, San Francisco.
And so I took the ferry over.
I was looking around at likepotential locations, uh, when I
(07:05):
heard that it had fallen through.
And even then, even in thatdisappointment, I think there was probably
a little glimmer of possibility in mymind because I, I know that so many
of my films have come from some sortof limit, from some sort of obstacle.
I don't think I'm the filmmakerwho works very well with.
(07:25):
Absolute freedom.
I sort of need something to pushagainst and this obviously was an
enormous thing to push against.
Wow, interesting.
Tell it, go more into it, like I've,tell me about some of your other films.
Are they also true crime stories thatyou had to fight for access to, or
it's more, I, I think it's like, likeI've made a lot of archival films
(07:45):
and obviously when you work witharchival material to some extent,
there is a finite limit on what exists.
Um, so for instance, I made a shortfilm about, um, about a legal case
in in Britain in the early nineties,late eighties, which was about a
group of gay and bisexual men who wereprosecuted for having, uh, a series
(08:11):
of sader masochistic sex parties.
And this set a very, sort of significantprecedent in British law around consent
because it was basically decidedthat their consent to participate.
Uh, in these sex parties was nota defense to having quote unquote,
assaulted one another and aidedand abetted assaults on themselves.
(08:35):
Um, wow.
So it was this very bizarre case.
Um, needless to say, very, in myopinion, homophobically motivated.
But the only reason they'd beenable to even know that these things
took place, because obviously itwas a victimless crime, right?
No one was reporting this to the police.
It was because the men hadvideotapes, the parties.
(08:58):
And so obviously when I began workingon it, the first thing I wondered
is like, uh, do these tapes exist?
Right?
Police still have them.
Do any of the men involved?
Still have them?
And so I, you know, I spent like18 months fighting this freedom of
information battle back and forth withthe police who, you know, blocked my
(09:18):
every attempt to access any of this stuff.
I think ultimately.
The tapes probably aren't in theirpossession anyway, but they wouldn't
even get to the point of telling me whatthey had, let alone giving it to me.
And so that film likewisestarted from a position of.
Not being able to get or look at oraccess the, the thing that felt to some
extent, like it was the core of the thing.
(09:38):
Mm. Um,
I love that you use frustrationas a driving, uh, energizer,
as like a, isn't it always?
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I think we all do, and I thinkmost of us take our frustration
and, and, you know, pivot and, andkind of try and put, end up putting
lipstick on a pig sometimes, butyou, it seems like refuse to, uh.
(09:59):
To hide behind the limitation, butinstead you highlight the limitation.
Right.
That's certainly what you do here,is that the, the short, uh, the, I'm
sorry, the archival film that you'redescribing, what is it called and, and
how did you respond to that frustration?
So it's called lasting marks.
Okay.
And it's, um, which isa great accent test.
I find.
It was always fun going to the USto screener because, uh, everyone
(10:20):
enjoys hearing me say lasting marks.
Um, yeah.
'cause we would say lasting marks.
Would you, you'd put, you'd do your hard.
Say it like that.
Would you do the hard R on marks still?
How would you say LA lasting marks.
Lasting marks.
Last lasting marks, right?
We can go last lasting.
Man.
Man.
Okay.
And so, so again, this is a story aboutsomething that you needed to basically
(10:44):
work really hard to gain access to.
You don't ultimately gain theaccess, but you find a new way.
To tell the story and to bring it
to life.
Yeah.
Maybe one day I'll actually like, getaccess to anything and then I can make,
make something that I actually, uh,
well, that's, I mean, it's such aninteresting al almost like stoic idea
that like the obstacle is the way, right?
(11:05):
Like instead of, you know, turningaway from it and going in the
opposite direction or giving up onthe project altogether, you decided,
no, this is actually what will informthe project and help me make it.
Which is not everybodywould do, I don't think.
And that's like a really beautiful wayto sort of approach not only making a
film, but also life in general, like,so is that, um, were you inspired
(11:27):
by other filmmakers that do that?
And did you work, were you sortof working with somebody else's?
Were as, as a ref, uh,work as a reference.
I'm trying to think.
I mean, definitely yeah, like,
like that sort of like provocation.
It is very appealing to me, bothas a filmmaker and a viewer.
I mean, the way, the way I sort offell in love with documentary as a
(11:49):
kid, somewhat predictably was watchinga lot of those sort of quite punky,
provocative, like plucky, you know,roving camera type documentarians like.
Well, specifically, I was gonnasay Michael Moore, who I, I,
yeah.
Was success with as kidor, or Nick Broomfield.
But Nick Broomfield was
a big one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I remember having, as a teenager,having the, like Nick Broomfield,
(12:13):
DVD box set and the idea, especiallyhim as a sort of like unlikely, quite
unassuming, slightly awkward and shufflingBritish figure, like bumbling into these
very fraught situations, but sort ofrefusing to back down at every limit.
That definitely did have an influence.
I remember one of his, one of his sortof lesser known films that I'd never
(12:36):
really heard anyone talking about.
It's a film called Tracking Down Maggie.
Mm. I don't know that one.
Which is
it?
It sort of, in some wayslike a, a familiar premise.
It's just him trying to get aninterview with Margaret Thatcher.
Oh.
I was hoping it was gonna be Maggie Smith.
It's a, it's a post post PrimeMinister Margaret Thatcher.
(12:57):
She's in her retirement ormaybe she's still an mp.
At that time, uh, but she's on abook tour and he's trying to get an
interview with her and she refuses.
And obviously there's a thousandfilms like this where it's just
about trying to get the interview.
You're never gonna get.
Roger and me, obviously.
Yeah.
Or, or last night our, um, uh,somebody else we interviewed who's
a friend of ours, Adam Ball, Lowe'smovie, deep Faking Sam Alman.
(13:20):
That's the premise.
Oh, is that also the premise of that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's trying to get to SamAlman and can't do it,
and it's, you know, it's, itproduced lots of good movies.
Um, and this one probably isn'teven a particularly remarkable
example of the sub genre.
But it was maybe the first one I'dseen and the directions in which that
sends him off spinning because he'sobviously so hopelessly unable to get
(13:44):
an interview with Margaret Thatcher.
I found very like stimulating andinteresting as a, as a prospect.
Yeah.
That that could be.
A film that, that could be a documentary.
I really love that too.
Like taking the audience along for theride and they're sort of, um, complicit in
picking the film with you sort of thing.
(14:05):
Yeah.
And you're, and that you'rewrapped into the, into the
process of the production as well.
Like there's such huge sueess of that filmand just Nick Broomfield, like talking
to Margaret Thatcher's publicist, she's,she's a much bigger character in the
film than Margaret Thatcher Inevitably.
Well, and that it shows you howshe's protected and how hard it is.
(14:26):
You know, how media trainedcelebrities are, and you know, it
gives you a interesting lens throughwhich to look at someone like her.
Um, so that's fascinating.
So are you, are you going to continue onthis route with your next film project?
Do you have somethingelse you're working on?
It's weird to imagine makingthat like your, um, your kind of.
(14:50):
Staple your signature asa documentary filmmaker.
'cause I obviously can't like,produce limitations for myself.
You know, I can't like forcea situation where I, uh.
Have to think outside the box or whatever.
I love how, uh, you turn like legaldocuments in conversations with lawyers
into riveting, uh, documentary cinema,
(15:11):
at least half of last night's q and awas, uh, Charlie extolling the virtue
of his relationship with his attorney.
I love my lawyer.
Oh, so he's my, yeah, he's myprimary creative collaborator.
I want to, uh, I wanna, I wish you hadcredited him as such when you said that
in the q and a. I thought that Yeah.
Co-director.
Yeah.
Let's pivot back to the makingof Zodiac Killer Project.
(15:32):
In the beginning, when you make thedecision, I can't make the film I
wanna make, but I'm gonna make thisother film instead, what is the
process for pitching and funding?
Are you sticking your neck out and goingdeep on spec to win people over with, with
a, with a really strong proof of concept?
Or are you setting meetings and.
(15:53):
Calling up old collaborators and tryingto convince them to give you one more
shot or you, you knocking on new doors andsaying, let's break new ground together.
How's it work?
So I always feel, uh, almost like guiltytelling this part of the story, uh,
because it was insanely blissfully easy.
Oh.
(16:13):
Which is never the
case.
Well, you should feel guilty.
I know.
Oh man.
And certainly has not.
That is never the case, not been thecase for me, uh, with any other project.
But yeah, after, after a lot of like, as Isay, false starts, once I did conceive of
this film that I actually made rather thanthe one I didn't make, I went to Field
(16:34):
of Vision with whom I'd worked before acouple of times, including actually on
that short that I talked about before.
Lasting marks.
Lasting marks.
And um, yeah.
And then I basically just, I mean, I'dmade a little kind of, uh, pitch video.
Essentially just kind of much likethe finished film, just me kind of
rambling through the idea, um, withsome various visual reference points.
(16:58):
Showed them that, and I think it was bothgood timing in that they were looking
to start a couple of new projects, butalso Yeah, incredibly they were able
to see it and had faith that this wouldactually make sense, uh, as a film at
some point, which I think even I did not.
(17:18):
Totally believe at that point.
Wow.
Um, so your
financiers had the vision at timesthat even when you didn't, that is,
that's a rare case.
Very rare.
Yeah.
Lawyers, phenomen, financiers, easy money.
This is a Charlie.
This case is against all eyes.
I know
you are a unicorn in thefield of documentary.
Truly.
(17:38):
Um, and I, and that to always be theredirect man, but I want to come back.
For our audience who hasn't seen thefilm, uh, I don't exactly know what.
Simple label you would apply.
Um, but the label that I've heardthrown around for this project
and, and others, including one I'mworking on, is a twist on true crime.
I don't know if that's the way youwould put it, but it, it is not
(17:58):
a standard true crime approach.
And if anything, I would sayI saw last night a skewering
of true crime in a, in a way.
But how would you describeyour relationship in this
film to true crime and why?
Yeah, it's fine.
Like the thing I always forget thatobviously to some extent it does still
play as a true crime film becausethe, the form of it is me, you know,
(18:21):
perfectly replicating what the narrativebeats of the unmade film would've been.
So at its best, hopefully, if, ifpeople get into it, you have the
sensation of watching that film,even though you're not watching it.
So it, yeah, it has sort of the,the rhythm of a true crime film.
It has the structure of a truecrime film, just sort of without
(18:43):
any of the actual meat of the thing.
Um, and it, my relationship to it,it's funny, like the thing that co
crops up again and again and again inreviews inevitably, is the phrase love
hate, which I get because obviouslyI, I express a lot of affection for
the genre in the film while also.
(19:06):
Kind of taking the piss out of it.
Parodying, uh, some ofits more hackneyed tropes.
To me, the aim with the filmwas to express the sort of
the, the, just the sort, almost like theneutrality of how I, and it seems like
(19:27):
a lot of people relate to true crime.
It's like, it's almostlike a passive thing.
It's just so, you know, saturated in our.
Culture and especially in the documentaryindustry, as you two both know.
Um,
yeah, what is it?
The three Cs, yourpure, uh, pitch project.
You have to have one of the three Cs,
crime, celebrity and cult and cults cult.
(19:48):
I was wondering what the third one was.
I feel like the cults havegone a little out of fashion.
There's only, there's onlyso many of 'em, right?
They've run out of cults.
Yeah.
I mean, there's an opening, right?
Like start a new cult and you'reguaranteed, you know, some airtime.
And so I think like the.
That actually might be I, that feelslike an Adam Bhala Lough doc right there.
I was just
gonna say that sounds like somebodythat's maybe your next film.
(20:09):
Charlie, you start,
Charlie, start a cult andit'll be our next film.
Yeah.
If the limitation isthere are no cults left.
Starting one is a beautiful, all right.
We just to Charlie and
he's gonna start premises onpremises here on Dock Walks.
How much of this is purposeful inyour mind versus, uh, sort of like
accidental in the way that we weretalking about Nick Broomfield's films
(20:31):
being a comment on Margaret Thatcherbecause he can't get to her, right?
Like, are you meaning to comment onthe genre or are you just so enamored
with the story that, that you'remaking it however you can and then
that's a happy, uh, coincidence?
It's definitely intentional, but Isuppose for me it was almost like.
(20:54):
That critique just rose inevitably outof the way that I would find myself and
my friends talking about this stuff.
It's like, you know, I know a lot of otherdocumentary filmmakers, including many
who've made true crime films, and whenthey talk about working in their field,
they're not talking in these like, youknow, sober austere terms about like the,
(21:17):
the gravity of the story or whatever.
Like anything else, when you're in it.
You talk about it in quite a kindof playful, glib way and you know,
you have like dark humor about itand you're confronted constantly
by the seriousness of it, butalso the sort of absurdity of it.
And so the, the real sort of intentionalthing was trying to capture that strange,
(21:43):
almost kind of amoral tone that I think alot of this stuff is, is conjured within.
Um, and I knew inevitably thatthat would like, mean the film
was a critique of true crime.
So that was very inevitable.
I see.
Uh, I mean intentional, uh, as wellas the, the possibility, uh, that
(22:05):
I seem like a bit of a smug jerk.
You know, I had a, I had asimilar experience where my, my
first feature doc to make, andI'd made lots of other shorts.
I never even narrated any of them.
But my first feature.
It was a movie called Winnebago Man.
And very quickly the movie became myrelationship to the guy who was the
(22:27):
star of this accidental viral video.
And it happened so organically thatI didn't really think about it a
whole lot during the productionbecause I was so busy talking him
into participating and trying todeal with how difficult he was being.
But when I, when we got into theedit, I started to realize like,
oh, this is, there's so many things.
(22:49):
But I should have done differently,uh, or the, or so many ways this could
go wrong, being the, um, the both thedirector and the star of the movie.
Um, and so I think I was luckythat I just wasn't like carrying
that neurosis, you know?
Uh, but now if I were to do that, I thinkI would be much more self-conscious.
(23:10):
So was there a level for you, knowingthat you were narrating and that you're
a character in the film in some way?
Like were you sort of.
Trying to avoid certaintropes, or, I think I was, I
was definitely
like,
yeah, by contrast with yoursituation, obviously I was very,
(23:32):
very consciously inserting myself.
You know, I, I, I could have done it otherways and instead I chose to not only.
Plaster my voice all over thefilm, but even, uh, you know,
film those voiceover sessions.
Ooh, I'll sign it.
Yeah, I mean, not this way.
I was just
gonna say we can do one morelap 'cause we're pretty close to
(23:54):
where we started and I feel Yeah.
This is his hotel.
Maybe we do, yeah.
Do we just do one more quick?
That's what I was thinking, but
it's this, this east, west is what'skilling us, is what's killing us.
Either way, we're gonna,or we just go back down.
Let's just go back down
and it is, uh, yeah, we'vegot about 10 more minutes.
I wanna respect your time here.
Yeah.
So, um,
let's just go down anotherblock and then come back.
Okay.
Sounds good.
Um, and I, I don't wantto like cut you short.
(24:15):
You were No, no.
You, you were mostly answeredthrough that question.
Yeah.
Um, let's get to the other sideof like, where this building
does and get into some wrap up.
Um, I, I'll let, yeah, I'll let youfinish the, the thought, so, no, no.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Oh,
oh, this
is,
wow.
Yeah, I really
got, once
we get over here, you
should be all right.
Yeah.
And if we aren't, we canalso just stand still.
(24:35):
We don't have to keep
No, totally up to you.
Well, let's see.
I think, yeah, I think Keith's right.
Once we get in front of thisbuilding, it should be up nice.
It'll better
here.
Let's stand in.
We'd always take refuge behind
this,
this little improvised sound booththat, that wouldn't look weird.
This little all glory hole setup,whatever's going on back there.
(24:57):
Here.
Let's try it.
Actually, I think this might.
Yep.
Yeah, I mean I think ithas been phone to very
private moments.
A lot going on.
Yeah,
a lot going on.
We just inadvertently walked intoan outdoor toilet, is what happened.
Um, but this is good right here actually.
Okay.
So yeah, this is, okay.
So Charlie, I think Keithbrings up a great point.
We should probably redirect here, besome sort, have, have a, uh, shape this
(25:21):
in some way that we're learning to do.
We're novices here, but, um, one ofthe things we hope people get out
of this is, these are other workingdocumentarians, listening to advice
from other working documentarians.
So as somebody who makes documentaryfor a living, can you just talk
about your process a little bit?
Like how many projects you're developingat one time, how you choose projects
to develop, that sort of thing.
(25:42):
Yeah, so I inevitably have.
An absolutely unfathomable number ofprojects happening at any one time.
I like it.
And when I say happening, I meanhappening in the least meaningful sense.
They're like crawling along with nomoney and no activity whatsoever.
Well, let's drill down into that.
(26:02):
So like, is it, are you talking aboutlike, you'll read an article, for
example and reach out to, uh, theauthor of the article and then so I
will establish a relationship like that,
or I have, I have a folder on my computer.
That is, uh, that saysit's called like projects.
And within that folder there are threeother folders and one is, uh, completed.
(26:27):
So obviously feel good about all those.
The other is, uh, abandoned andthat's got like 50 sub folders
of ideas, both like actuallymeaningful to me that I have mourned.
And like so crap and insubstantialthat I barely remember having
fleeting thoughts.
Literal.
(26:47):
Yeah.
I will start a new folder inthere at the drop of a hat.
It does not need to haveany value at all as an idea.
Partly because as you both knowthat you never know when something's
gonna suddenly seem relevant again.
And
you can drag one folder off from,uh, from one and folders move other.
Oh, what a feeling.
Which you did with this film.
It did, yeah.
You moved the folder
(27:08):
and then Yeah, finally like active.
And I maybe have six or seven things inthere at any one time, so that hopefully
when inevitably these pauses, uh, comeup in projects because you're waiting to
hear back from someone or you're hopingthat something becomes available, I
can try and shift to one of the others.
(27:29):
What that inevitably means is that yougo to film festivals and people are like,
so how long did you work on the film?
And then the answer isalways like seven years.
And they're like, how?
How are you making anything elseif you are taking that long?
Everything.
But it's like seven years staggeredover every other seven year project.
Right?
One of these type years.
I'd love to just like.
Make something in a year.
It must feel incredible.
(27:49):
It must be Well, but I'm surprisedyou're not doing that with your,
uh, easy access to funding.
Well, indeed and your, yourincredibly generous financiers.
And I suppose the
definitions are a littleblurry on that one.
'cause Yes, if you're just talkingabout like the actual production
of the film, I have managed tomake that, it was pretty good.
It was like a year and a half,which I will absolutely take.
(28:10):
Uh, the problem is once you startfactoring in like the failed
film as sort of the same project.
Then we are, you know, we're gettingup into like five, six years.
And, uh, unlike you, Idon't use a folder system.
I have a spreadsheet in GoogleDrive that I refer to as my board.
And so at any point in time I say, I'vegot 21 projects on my board right now.
(28:33):
Um, but it's exactly what you described.
It's a question of, uh, the boardis divided up into, uh, high
priority, low priority and confusion.
And then, uh, I don't even have completed,they just take it off the board.
But maybe I need.
They need to celebrate the
completions.
You need completed for a little feel good.
Yeah.
Like spark.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can, I need that little feel good spark.
(28:53):
Um,
you do, I agree with that.
You need a feel good spark.
That's why I have you, Ben.
Ben is my feel good spark.
That's right.
I'm
the optimist.
He's the, uh, the Eeyore ofthe group, the pessimist.
I'm just grumpy.
Um, okay, so, uh, what advicedo you have for young people?
Who discover that they cannotmake the film that they wanna
(29:16):
make, what should they do?
Do they, uh, rent a 16 millimeter cameraand, uh, and, and do what you did?
Or, or what is your advice?
I think like the, the best advice Icould give, I think, and it applies
here as with so many filming situations,is I think never underestimate
quite how little can be a film.
(29:39):
Like this is somethingI like, I often like.
Talk to film students orlike talk at film schools.
And the thing I observe again and again,I get why this happens, is like people
who are just starting out trying to maketheir first like student film first,
like thesis, documentary, whatever itmight be, and they think it needs to
be about something huge, something thatlike earns its existence as a film.
(30:04):
And so they shoot for these hugetopics, which inevitably as brand
new filmmakers, they're not reallyequipped to handle like it's, it's.
You know, and at worst it's likethey feel like they need to dig into
the absolute most intimate parts oftheir life or their family history.
And it's like you're probably notactually at a place yet where you
can really get a grip on that.
(30:24):
Um, so I'm always like, no,no, it can be almost nothing.
It could be like a goodconversation you had with a friend
or a story that went nowhere.
Um, and this film is obviously, youknow, like a pretty, it's a, it's a
feature length, uh, explication ofthat because it's literally about.
Just nothing.
It's about something that didn't happen.
(30:44):
Um, but I think that's fared me verywell in general, is accepting that
basically anything that interests youin however small way is meaningful and
is something, and is better than likechasing something because you think
someone else is gonna be interested in it.
That's great advice.
I think it's incredible advice.
Yeah.
A story that went nowhere I think is.
(31:07):
Potentially a greattitle for this episode.
Alright, so let's, let'swalk back to your hotel.
Um, and as we do, I want to tell you,uh, a story about when I was a film
student, I had a professor encourage usto write to, uh, filmmakers we admired.
Mm-hmm.
And I was always kind of an arty kid whodidn't like things that were popular.
(31:29):
So I loved, uh, Alan Berliner.
I loved, uh, Ross McElwee.
I love Les Blank.
So I wrote to those guys,uh, they all wrote me back.
Wow.
And Ross McElwee said something verygermane to what you just said, where he
basically, uh, said that what, um, hequoted Wordsworth, which was very Ross
(31:49):
McElwee, you know, being a professor atHarvard and a sort of having a poetic,
um, a narrative style that he has.
Yeah, but he said the, uh, the edgeof meaning never is far from personal
experience or something like that.
Meaning shoot what you have accessto shoot your actual life that
(32:11):
you can then make into, uh, astory that'll be very relatable.
Almost more like the more personal youmake it, the more universal the story is.
And I love that, that you're,you're giving similar advice, like
don't shoot for chasing headlinesin the newspaper necessarily.
Make something that you personallyfeel strongly about and trust that
(32:31):
your audience will follow you there.
Totally.
Yeah.
Is is that a good summationof what you're saying?
Absolutely.
And also I think, you know, it's like,
like my film, you know, has,has certain formal elements that
on paper might sound kind of.
Alienating or oblique.
(32:51):
Um, much of it consists of juststatic shots of nothing happening.
Uh, there's a 10 minutes into thefilm, there's a five minute shot
of a table, um, all of which, yeah,like could sound off putting, I
hope it's on the poster and 10minutes into the film there's
a five minute show at the table
or which could potentially be offputting.
But the thing I always, youknow, said while we were working
(33:13):
on it is like, as long as.
That because that's accompanied by,you know, me telling this story in a
kind of conversational, improvised way.
I was like, that doesn't need to be anymore off-putting than sitting at a table
and talking to someone for five minutes.
Ah,
and indeed, you know, I hope, I mean,not everyone feels this way, but,
(33:34):
but a lot of audiences seem to feelthis way, that actually stuff that's
theoretically experimental or difficultor oblique, if it's just intuitive.
When you watch it and feels like easy tograsp, it needn't be, and like there's
no reason that's any more obliquethan a, a talking head interview.
(33:55):
It's just that you've seen the talkingHead interview 10,000 times before.
So you have this sort of priorrelationship with that, what that means.
Um,
so you're expecting that, but thenyou're giving them something unexpected.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think people will really go withyou if there's, if there's a sense of
it leaning something to you, as you say.
Yeah.
If it feels like.
Someone's actually invested,
(34:17):
right?
Yeah.
The more personal, the more universal.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, this is great.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you.
Walk Sign is on to Cross Guadalupeat twelve eleven, ten nine.
So, uh, I don't know when you're gonnaget a chance to see Charlie's film.
It is seeking Distribution.
(34:37):
I know he's got, uh, the folks atCinetic working, um, to, to make a deal.
Uh, it's a hard film to imagine,you know, showing up on your feed
on Netflix on a Friday night.
I, I would hope the people atHBO would see the value in it.
Maybe it's an Amazon,um, but it's hard to say.
It's hard to say.
It's a unique film.
And so where does a film like that end up?
(34:59):
I don't know.
Well find out.
And, uh, so keep your eyes, uh,peeled for a zodiac killer project.
It sounds right up my alley withmy love of Ross McElwee and.
Um, and, you know, filmmakers willtake you on a journey, Michael Moore.
Uh, so I'm very excited to see itand I really enjoyed meeting Charlie.
So, uh, I hope he gets distributionand I hope, uh, somebody listening
(35:22):
buys it for lots and lots of money.
And I, I hope that the people in ouraudience feel the way that I feel, which
is inspired to lean into the obstacles.
Um, you know, most of thiswork is rejection based.
Um, you know, you gotta, you gottagird yourself to, to take the no's.
But, um.
I talking to Charlie is a reminderthat there's an opportunity for
(35:44):
creativity in that rejection and,um, we ran outta time with him.
But the question I would've askedis at this point, would he, uh, have
preferred to make the film that he setout to make or, um, or to have ended
up where he had, where he did now?
And it's hard to imagine the, uh, theversion of the film that he describes
(36:07):
being more impactful than, uh.
Than, than what he actually created.
Amen.
Well, let's hope, uh, everybody feelsthat way about the films we make.
Let's hope.
Let's hope we can.
Hope.
We can hope.
Alright.
All right.
That's it for now.
I gotta go rest my voice.
Uh, we'll see for the next one.
Thanks everybody.
Thank you.
(36:28):
Next time on Doc Walks.
We've got two episodescoming at you next week.
Episode eight is gonna be a walk and talkwith Indie film Impresario, John Sloss.
He's a sales agent to the starsand leader of Cinetic Media.
He's gonna tell us about his originstory, the 1990s indie film boom, that he
(36:49):
was such a big part of, and his view ofwhat's going on in our industry right now.
What's the marketplace where we headed?
And we've got a bonus episode, Ben and Itake you into the heart of the Austin Film
Society Parking Lot Party here at South bySouthwest, where we're gonna go meet the
people, talk to our friends and colleagueshere from the Austin Film Community.
(37:09):
We hope you'll join us.
We appreciate you.
Catch you next time.
On Doc Walks.
Doc Walks is created, produced, and editedby my friend Ben Steinbauer of the Bear.
Hello, and my friend KeithMaitland of Go Valley.
Thanks for tuning in.
Follow us at Doc Walks Podon Instagram X and YouTube.
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