August 6, 2024 • 25 mins
In our premiere episode of Educating to be Human, Lisa Petrides speaks with Erin O'Connell, a university classics professor, who has used her expertise over the years as a teacher of Ancient Greek and Ancient Greek culture to delve into the world of Monsters, how we define them, where we can find them, not just under our beds, and the perspective they bring us in thinking about being human in today's world. Erin O’Connell’s academic background is in Classics and Comparative Literature, teaching Greek and Latin languages and literature as well as a broad range of Humanities courses to all ages.
Erin earned a PhD at UC-Santa Cruz, taught at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City for 20 years where she was a tenured professor, and has come full circle by returning to California to teach at UC-Santa Cruz and Cabrillo Community College. As a scholar and teacher Erin is keen on integrating her scholarly expertise with the interests and needs of all learners in the contemporary educational and cultural context.
Educating to be Human is hosted by Lisa Petrides, produced by Helene Theros, recorded by Nathan Sherman, edited by Ty Mayer, with music by Kathy Sherman.
Please subscribe and listen to Educating to Be Human on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts, leave a review, tell your friends and share our episodes on social media. And don’t forget to follow @edutobehuman on Instagram and on X/Twitter @edutobehuman
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
(Transcribed by Sonix.ai - Remove this message by upgrading your Sonix account) Welcome to Educating to Be Human, a podcastwhere we'll explore what it means to be human
in today's world at the intersection ofeducation, technology and culture.
I'm your host, Lisa Petrides, founder of theInstitute for the Study of Knowledge
Management and Education.
Each week, I'll speak with people who aresupporting transformative change in
(00:29):
education, today, that is, ordinary peoplecreating extraordinary impact.
Thank you very much for listening.
Today, I'd like to introduce my guest,doctor Erin O'Connell.
(00:50):
She is a university classics professor, andshe's used her expertise over the years as a
teacher of ancient Greek and ancient Greekculture to delve into the long history of how
the word monster and monstrous are used.
And today we have the pleasure of learningfrom her and having a discussion about how
monsters are defined and where we can findthem, not just under our beds, and not only
(01:14):
in ancient mythology, but all around us.
And we talk about how this concept ofmonsters brings some much needed perspective
and helping us think about being human intoday's world.
Welcome, Erin.
Thank you Lisa.
I would love, just maybe you can start with,you know what this work is about and why are
we talking about monsters?
(01:35):
Well, I found in my teaching as a classicsprofessor that talking about monsters was a
very useful, but just as importantly, fun,pedagogical approach for teaching the content
and teaching critical thinking, whichinvolved for us a thoughtful analysis of
(01:56):
cultural and social values and beliefs.
And so we would think of monsters as a lensthrough which we could determine how people
defined what was positive and what wasnegative in the in the simplest sense, or
what was desirable and undesirable and whatis good and what is evil.
(02:18):
And I think everyone notices the wordmonster is a pretty powerful word.
It packs a punch whenever it's used.
It's a very popular word I found when Istarted working on it, it was popping up
everywhere. I just would see it in allmanner of contexts.
It was really kind of surprising.
And another cool thing about monsters isthat really, everyone, at any age, is already
(02:40):
a bit of an expert on monsters, right?
Kids know all about monsters, as you say.
You know, under the bed. Adolescents arereally interested in monsters.
Adults are all familiar with the concept,and everyone has their own take or their own
version of of what a monster is.
And that's an important distinction,because, you know, my monster may not be your
(03:02):
monster. So it's a it's a common word.
It's a powerful word.
And it has a wide variety of examples ofwhat constitutes a monster.
Yeah. And it really seems to me that monstersare not only in our in our culture and our
pop culture, but also it's really in sort ofancient times.
Right? As well as modern use.
(03:22):
Exactly. Exactly right.
They're all over comic books, video games,movies.
Right. And, you know, we are very familiarwith them in the academic context in
classical mythology.
Right? So ancient literatures all over theplanet.
And I also found that the word monsteritself, not just the concept, but the word
(03:43):
also appeared surprisingly frequently inacademic and professional culture.
Everybody uses it and it has unserioususages and serious usages.
So, you know, I was seeing signs for monstertrucks or monster pizza or monster book sale,
(04:03):
right? It's sort of a good advertising word.
It catches people's attention.
So I thought it was just kind of exciting toto pursue it.
And because it was central to my ownscholarly field, I could then connect it to,
to sort of the rest of the world.
I'd love to hear just a little bit about howyou sort of connected the, you know, the
(04:25):
ancient Greek world of philosophers andmonsters to today.
Like, how did you make that crossover?
Well, it.
Really came clear to me when I was teachingclassical mythology, because we were reading
all about all the ancient heroes and heroesbecome heroes by slaying monsters.
So it was a very kind of emphatically cleardepiction of, of a monster, whether it's, you
(04:48):
know, the Minotaur or Medusa with the snakehair or the one eyed Cyclops.
But my own work was primarily in, in tragicdrama, in philosophy.
And I thought, well, this definition of whatis, what is monstrous in in the old
stereotypical monster myths reappears indrama in the form of human beings behaving
(05:11):
monstrously to each other.
Right? So you didn't have to be some sort ofbizarre hybrid, part human, part animal
creature in order to do terrible, violentthings.
Tragic drama was really interested inshowing kind of the extent of how awful
people could be to each other.
And and particularly powerful was how humanbeings treated their family members.
That was sort of, you know, more monstrousthan than how you treated strangers.
(05:35):
And then as time moved forward, philosophybecame very important and was flourishing in
in classical Athens in particular.
And there.
A similar notion of the monstrous appears,but in the form of fraudulent speech or slimy
rhetoric lying to persuade people to dothings.
So the philosophers, you know, someone likePlato, Aristotle, Socrates in particular,
(05:59):
were very concerned about wrong use oflanguage.
And so what I recognized as the old kind offorce of monsters in the very ancient tales
appearing again in tragedy, was still therevery much in the same kind of essential force
in philosophy.
And so then I from there I got to noticinghow it was in all the academic disciplines,
(06:22):
in one way or another, as well asprofessional fields.
So, you know, psychology, we'll talk aboutpsychopaths in law, we'll talk about
murderers and rapists.
You know, calling someone a monster in thecourtroom is extremely powerful.
In medicine.
The word for tumor actually comes from aGreek word for monster.
A cancer is imagined as a monster.
(06:45):
Math has a monster problem set that is,refers to an extremely unwieldy and kind of
sporadic mathematical problem inbioengineering, where they have prosthesis
and computer chips in people's bodies.
There are some people who find that sort ofmonstrous and offensive and wrong.
Very often in talking about weathercatastrophes, the word monster comes up.
(07:09):
And so what, what all of these notions ofmonster have in common is that it's something
that's typically massive in size or massiveimpact, and that's important.
It doesn't have to be big.
It can just be big impact.
And it's experienced by its victims asdestructive and violent and uncontrollable,
(07:30):
often unpredictable.
Another key feature is it cannot really bestopped.
It can't be suppressed, you know,permanently and their inevitable.
Right. It's almost like the worst things wecan imagine, right?
Those examples you gave, it's like, how dowe overcome the monster, right?
Yes, exactly.
And it's interesting to note too, as a as aGreek professor, I cannot help myself but to
(07:54):
point out that the origin of this word isactually from a Latin word, the verb monstra,
which means to to show something remarkable,something extraordinary, something awesome,
something awful in the old sense of kind ofinspiring awe, which also is often
accompanied by fear, like our worddemonstrate, right has that monstrous aspect
(08:20):
to it. So it's interesting that the wordjust refers to showing you something
remarkable. But the thing that's shown thatis remarkable is big and scary and
uncontrollable and fascinating.
And it also, very often another kind ofaspect that ties all this together is that
things called monsters or monstrous revealthe radical vulnerability of human beings in
(08:46):
human existence.
Right? There's a stuff that happens to usthat we cannot stop, and it's awful.
So we kind of look at that to figure out howcan we stop it?
How do we survive it?
How do we predict it?
What do we do about it?
Because it's here and, you know, it's stinksto experience it.
Yeah.
It's really it's something that we often likewe can't fully really understand that which
(09:12):
is monstrous. Right.
And so it kind of gives us this sense of thesense of dread in a way when we think about
monsters. And which, of course, brings me tothe obvious sort of next question, which is,
you know, what can we do with this sort ofstudy of monsters?
Like, what's the impact of even talkingabout this idea?
(09:33):
Certainly there's there's a great deal ofinterest in sort of tying the ancient to to
today. Are there things are there other sortof cultural impacts of monsters or things
that we can glean from this that actuallyhelp us deal with this, with this world in
this way?
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
One of the things that comes from lookingthrough the lens of monsters or thinking
(09:56):
about the role of monsters in our societiesor in our cultural belief systems, is that
human beings have a desire to confront andexplore taboo subjects or forbidden desires
in a safe, controlled manner.
And so talking about monsters kind of allowsyou to do that vicariously, right?
Because it's sort of pretend or it's it'smythical or it's not happening to you right
(10:21):
then. And things that are identified as, asmonstrous often are what allow us to point to
something and marginalize it, right, topersecute it.
So historically and culturally, you know,one group of people will point to another
group of people and say they're terrible.
They're awful. You know, it's a racialgroup.
It's an ethnic group.
(10:41):
And call them monsters, right?
They're not like. Us, they're not normal.
And that depiction, that label, which we'reall very familiar with, things that we don't
recognize, we don't like.
It's different, therefore scary.
You can then justify bias anddiscrimination.
So I think that, you know, and this is justone one thing that can happen by thinking
(11:02):
about, you know, what gets called a monsterand who's calling it that and why.
So I think one thing is we can have a moreinformed grasp of how and why things or
people are identified as monstrous, and thatcan lead us to have a more nuanced
appreciation of, you know, who or what isthe quote unquote real monster in a situation
(11:27):
like, for example, you know, the famousnovel by Mary Shelley, Frankenstein.
Right. Doctor Frankenstein creates acreature, he animates a creature, and the
creature is often understood as the monster.
Right? He's big. He's out of control.
He's violent.
But the novel itself will show you that thequote unquote real monster is Doctor
(11:49):
Frankenstein himself, who created thiscreature and then, you know, neglected it.
It's a psychological response to neglect isto become, you know, violent and to not ever
fit in. That's a kind of intellectual,critical inquiry type of outcome that can
come from thinking about monsters and howand why and where is, you know, the violent,
(12:13):
destructive force coming from.
So is there a sort of a way back?
Because by that I really understand thatwhen you when you think about monsters and
how that's used and how we use it to createother right, other from ourselves and how
anything that is or anyone who is differentfrom us in some way, is something to be
feared and then becomes, as you said, amonster to us.
(12:38):
So how do we how do we walk our way backfrom there?
Right as we think about this whole idea of,you know, coming back to humanity, right?
How do we how do we go from monster backinto into what we're trying to be differently
and coexist together?
Yeah. Great question.
Well, I think when we're thinking aboutmonsters in this way, it allows us to think
(13:01):
more broadly about, you know, how societyorganizes and defines itself, what are its
cultural ideals and values, and how is humanexperience depicted?
We see that careful investigation ofmonsters helps us to move towards growth and
change. It will sort of, you know, werethink our social norms and prevailing
(13:23):
opinions and by becoming more informed,learning more carefully how things work, how
these notions come about, we can overcomesome of those anxieties and fears.
And I would also say that it provokes a kindof reflection that helps us to adjust our
notion of, you know, what's monstrous,what's evil, what's violent and destructive,
(13:47):
and what we can do about it, how we canprepare against it.
I think it helps kind of shine a light onwhat is the world like that we live in?
What kind of world do we want to live in,and to what extent do we have some agency to
to steer it in a direction that avoids, youknow, inhumane treatment?
(14:08):
Right? I mean, I think this idea ofeducating to be human, what does it mean to
be human? You have to think about what doesit mean to be inhumane?
Right. And monstrous is very much typicallyassociated with the inhumane.
So if we can see what that is and kind ofevolve our notion of what that is, how it
comes to be, I think it can sort of liberateus from some ignorance, from some sloppy
(14:33):
thinking, and make us just more carefulabout the language we use and where it comes
from.
Yeah, I think that's interesting.
We probably not.
So unlike the ancient Greeks addressing ourfears facing these monsters, right?
It really does help liberate us from, youknow, that kind of simplistic thinking of,
(14:56):
of, you know, of the inhumane.
And you can, you know, think about it justfor you personally as an individual, you
know, what is good, what is not good, whatis desirable, what is not desirable, but also
how we think about the common good, right,and who we want to be and how we want to, you
know, not only educate our kiddos, but sortof build towards a society that resists the
(15:22):
monstrous in as much as we can, but alsovery importantly, I think not not be afraid
of it. Right? Like check our own judgmentand look more carefully and question it.
Because, you know, some people are reallyfascinated by monsters.
They sort of love that they break all therules.
Like that's that's part of the attraction.
So there's a, you know, a wide variety ofways to kind of color this world.
(15:46):
And that's another part of what's fabulousabout working with it.
Right. Because you can kind of take it indifferent directions that, you know, grows
your your thought and more articulate ways.
Yeah, I like this way of of thinking abouthow we could become sort of more resilient
against it, right?
When we see it, whether it's in ourselves orin others, and how we how we can really.
(16:10):
I like how you express how we can thinkabout it.
About the common good and who we want to bein the world we want to live in.
I think that's that's so important.
So are you saying in some ways that monstersare sort of projections of the qualities of
us humans and, and what we don't want toaccept in ourselves or in others?
Absolutely. Yes.
(16:31):
I mean, that's that's a great way to kind oftranslate that, you know, they they are
projections of what we're afraid of, what wedon't like.
And very important, they are projections ofwhat is real, you know, real things in the
world. And so it's talking about monsterslooking at literature and usages of the word.
You see people, you know, wrestling withthings that are common to human existence but
(16:56):
very difficult to deal with and things thatwe want to change.
So we sort of figure out the extent to whichwe might be able to work towards change and
improvement, and to what extent.
It's just always going to be with us.
You know, the fight never stops.
And how do we grow, you know, kind ofresilient and, you know, have the grit, as
(17:16):
they say, to address it, accept it,understand it and just be thoughtful about
your role.
Yeah. So we're sort of like developing a, Iguess you might say, an attentiveness of, of
how we look at monsters and see that they'rehere and that they're in us.
(17:37):
But then at the same time, imagine the kindof world we want to live in.
And then that means actually dealing withthe monstrosities of life in this way.
Exactly.
I'm wondering also if there's some examples,like did the, you know, from the from the
ancient Greek philosophers and the, the, youknow, the myths, was there a similar sense of
(18:01):
conquering, you know, the monster which wasalso conquering that monster within
ourselves? Is there a parallel to that?
There is.
Let me let me tell you two quick stories.
One, you remember Hercules, right?
The Greek Heracles, one of the monsters heslays is the Hydra, and the Hydra is
(18:21):
described as a many headed snake, and hecomes up with a very clever way to cut off
its heads and cauterize with fire.
Right the head, so that they can't growback.
So he solves the problem of the hydra byslaying it.
And one theory about that myth is that thatmyth is a way of talking about.
(18:43):
So Hydra means water, right?
It comes from the word for water.
It was a way of talking about this seasonalflooding that would occur so suddenly.
There would be many rivers, many creeks,many water flows that destroyed crops, you
know, killed the olive trees, what have you.
So solving the kind of meteorologicalproblem of flooding was told through this
(19:07):
story of, of the Hydra.
But really it had to do with something moreboring, like diverting water and creating
reservoirs or what have you.
So it was an allegory for, you know, a sortof concrete problem that was solved.
Another way to answer your question is alsopertains to Heracles.
He's a really interesting hero because he'sheroic when he leaves civilization, goes out
(19:28):
into the wilderness and conquers wild beastsright beyond the pale on the frontiers of
existence. When he comes home, the skillsthat have made him such a fabulous warrior
and slayer of beasts are not skills thatserve him well in civilized society.
He's a little too rough.
He's a little too wild.
(19:49):
He's too bestial.
He's known for, you know, walking aroundwith a, I think, a lion's skin and a pelt on
his back. And he ends up, Hera causes himto, you know, go mad, but he ends up killing
his wife and children, which is a terrible,terrible thing.
And he hates it, and it's awful.
And then that's one of the reasons he goesoff to do the famous 12 labors.
(20:10):
But the idea there is that there's a part ofhim that's fabulously useful to society and
slaying monsters and protecting people, andalso a part of him, that very same skill set
can make him monstrous in his own home.
Right. And so this idea that Greeks are veryinterested in pointing out how we have this
(20:31):
incredible capacity for good and anincredible capacity for, you know,
unfortunate circumstances intended andunintended.
There's there's lots of examples of wherethey sort of talk about the glories, the
great talents of of mankind, right?
The innovations, the things we invent thatmake human life better, and also a lot of
(20:51):
awareness of how we destroy ourselves andour planet and the ones we love.
So there's this awareness that we.
We have to control ourselves.
We have to manage ourselves.
And you do that by looking within, right?
Know thyself and know thyself is one of the,you know, major kind of bumper sticker, pithy
statements from from Socrates over thetemple to Apollo at Delphi.
(21:14):
And the other one is nothing too much.
This idea of sort of moderation don't be sowild as to come home from battle and kill the
people in your own home.
Find the middle path that will sort ofprotect yourself and everyone.
I love that. I think that tension wecertainly live with today in today's society,
(21:35):
and I appreciate being able to think aboutthat almost, that dichotomy that you have
both of these pieces, but the world you wantto live in has to be balanced.
You have to balance that in some way, or goout to the forest or do the 12 labors.
But that is, I think, so important goingforward.
(21:56):
Being able to take this concept out ofmonsters and monstrosity and understand that
it's, it's a lot about the fear of othersand the unknown, but it's also the part of
ourselves. It's in us.
We all have that potential to have thatmonstrosity that it could in fact, serve us
in some way and absolutely doesn't, doesn'tserve us in others.
(22:19):
That's interesting to see how our beliefssort of change over time, and how we've
defined good and bad.
And I can't think of a more relevant timethan today, today's world in 2024, where I
think we face those same kinds of issues andchallenges.
I agree. Yeah, I find it continually usefulto to see the world through this lens really
(22:43):
clarifies things.
Well, is there anything else you want to addto our conversation today?
I have really enjoyed thinking about thiswith you, thinking about monsters and how
they can both empower us and and inform whatwe do as well as very, you know, in a very
thoughtful or thought provoking way, kind ofthink about how they can inspire us in action
(23:08):
in our society.
Yeah, yeah.
I think the inspiring us to action is animportant piece of this.
And a lot of that inspiration, I think,comes from developing a greater clarity just
from our own individual point of view aboutwhat is moral and what is ethical and what we
want to be a part of, and what we want toput a stop to kind of call it out when we see
(23:33):
it. I think it helps kind of sharpen thatawareness.
You know, I'm always encouraging my studentsto take this and use it to change the world
they live in, right?
Constantly making a connection between theold stuff and the life they're living.
That's why this is relevant, right?
This is why we teach it.
This is why we justify making them takethese general education classes.
(23:55):
It's not just for knowledge, you know, in anerudite education.
It's actually helps you think about your ownlife and the world you're living in and sort
of, you know, use the insights of theancients of the previous tradition.
You know, that brings us to this moment.
There's a lot of good thoughts and insightsthat have been had.
And we can we can fruitfully apply them tobe the kind of people and the kind of society
(24:18):
we want to be.
Well, thank you very much, Doctor ErinO'Connell, for sharing these thought
provoking insights with us today and helping us think about the role that monsters have
played in our lives, from ancient times to the present day, and really shaping our
understanding of ourselves and how we perceive difference in the world around us.
You've managed to find monsters everywhere from ancient greek literature to
bio-engineering to some of our favorite stories. I don't think any of else will
think about monsters in the same way again. I know I certainly won't. Thank you again,
Erin.
Thank you. It's my great pleasure.
Thank you, everybody for listening to theshow this week.
This has been Lisa Petrides with Educatingto Be Human.
(24:41):
If you enjoy our show, please rate andreview us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you
listen to your podcasts. You can access ourshow notes for links and information on our
guests. And don't forget to follow us onInstagram at Educating to Be Human and
Twitter X at Edu to Be Human, that is e-d-u to be human.
This podcast was created by Lisa Petridesand produced by Helene Theros.
(25:04):
Educating to Be Human is recorded by NathanSherman and edited by Ty Mayer. (Transcribed by Sonix.ai - Remove this message by upgrading your Sonix account)
(Transcribed by Sonix.ai - Remove this message by upgrading your Sonix account) Welcome to Educating to Be Human, a podcastwhere we'll explore what it means to be human
in today's world at the intersection ofeducation, technology and culture.
I'm your host, Lisa Petrides, founder of theInstitute for the Study of Knowledge
Management and Education.
Each week, I'll speak with people who aresupporting transformative change in
(00:29):
education, today, that is, ordinary peoplecreating extraordinary impact.
Thank you very much for listening.
Today, I'd like to introduce my guest,doctor Erin O'Connell.
(00:50):
She is a university classics professor, andshe's used her expertise over the years as a
teacher of ancient Greek and ancient Greekculture to delve into the long history of how
the word monster and monstrous are used.
And today we have the pleasure of learningfrom her and having a discussion about how
monsters are defined and where we can findthem, not just under our beds, and not only
(01:14):
in ancient mythology, but all around us.
And we talk about how this concept ofmonsters brings some much needed perspective
and helping us think about being human intoday's world.
Welcome, Erin.
Thank you Lisa.
I would love, just maybe you can start with,you know what this work is about and why are
we talking about monsters?
(01:35):
Well, I found in my teaching as a classicsprofessor that talking about monsters was a
very useful, but just as importantly, fun,pedagogical approach for teaching the content
and teaching critical thinking, whichinvolved for us a thoughtful analysis of
(01:56):
cultural and social values and beliefs.
And so we would think of monsters as a lensthrough which we could determine how people
defined what was positive and what wasnegative in the in the simplest sense, or
what was desirable and undesirable and whatis good and what is evil.
(02:18):
And I think everyone notices the wordmonster is a pretty powerful word.
It packs a punch whenever it's used.
It's a very popular word I found when Istarted working on it, it was popping up
everywhere. I just would see it in allmanner of contexts.
It was really kind of surprising.
And another cool thing about monsters isthat really, everyone, at any age, is already
(02:40):
a bit of an expert on monsters, right?
Kids know all about monsters, as you say.
You know, under the bed. Adolescents arereally interested in monsters.
Adults are all familiar with the concept,and everyone has their own take or their own
version of of what a monster is.
And that's an important distinction,because, you know, my monster may not be your
(03:02):
monster. So it's a it's a common word.
It's a powerful word.
And it has a wide variety of examples ofwhat constitutes a monster.
Yeah. And it really seems to me that monstersare not only in our in our culture and our
pop culture, but also it's really in sort ofancient times.
Right? As well as modern use.
(03:22):
Exactly. Exactly right.
They're all over comic books, video games,movies.
Right. And, you know, we are very familiarwith them in the academic context in
classical mythology.
Right? So ancient literatures all over theplanet.
And I also found that the word monsteritself, not just the concept, but the word
(03:43):
also appeared surprisingly frequently inacademic and professional culture.
Everybody uses it and it has unserioususages and serious usages.
So, you know, I was seeing signs for monstertrucks or monster pizza or monster book sale,
(04:03):
right? It's sort of a good advertising word.
It catches people's attention.
So I thought it was just kind of exciting toto pursue it.
And because it was central to my ownscholarly field, I could then connect it to,
to sort of the rest of the world.
I'd love to hear just a little bit about howyou sort of connected the, you know, the
(04:25):
ancient Greek world of philosophers andmonsters to today.
Like, how did you make that crossover?
Well, it.
Really came clear to me when I was teachingclassical mythology, because we were reading
all about all the ancient heroes and heroesbecome heroes by slaying monsters.
So it was a very kind of emphatically cleardepiction of, of a monster, whether it's, you
(04:48):
know, the Minotaur or Medusa with the snakehair or the one eyed Cyclops.
But my own work was primarily in, in tragicdrama, in philosophy.
And I thought, well, this definition of whatis, what is monstrous in in the old
stereotypical monster myths reappears indrama in the form of human beings behaving
(05:11):
monstrously to each other.
Right? So you didn't have to be some sort ofbizarre hybrid, part human, part animal
creature in order to do terrible, violentthings.
Tragic drama was really interested inshowing kind of the extent of how awful
people could be to each other.
And and particularly powerful was how humanbeings treated their family members.
That was sort of, you know, more monstrousthan than how you treated strangers.
(05:35):
And then as time moved forward, philosophybecame very important and was flourishing in
in classical Athens in particular.
And there.
A similar notion of the monstrous appears,but in the form of fraudulent speech or slimy
rhetoric lying to persuade people to dothings.
So the philosophers, you know, someone likePlato, Aristotle, Socrates in particular,
(05:59):
were very concerned about wrong use oflanguage.
And so what I recognized as the old kind offorce of monsters in the very ancient tales
appearing again in tragedy, was still therevery much in the same kind of essential force
in philosophy.
And so then I from there I got to noticinghow it was in all the academic disciplines,
(06:22):
in one way or another, as well asprofessional fields.
So, you know, psychology, we'll talk aboutpsychopaths in law, we'll talk about
murderers and rapists.
You know, calling someone a monster in thecourtroom is extremely powerful.
In medicine.
The word for tumor actually comes from aGreek word for monster.
A cancer is imagined as a monster.
(06:45):
Math has a monster problem set that is,refers to an extremely unwieldy and kind of
sporadic mathematical problem inbioengineering, where they have prosthesis
and computer chips in people's bodies.
There are some people who find that sort ofmonstrous and offensive and wrong.
Very often in talking about weathercatastrophes, the word monster comes up.
(07:09):
And so what, what all of these notions ofmonster have in common is that it's something
that's typically massive in size or massiveimpact, and that's important.
It doesn't have to be big.
It can just be big impact.
And it's experienced by its victims asdestructive and violent and uncontrollable,
(07:30):
often unpredictable.
Another key feature is it cannot really bestopped.
It can't be suppressed, you know,permanently and their inevitable.
Right. It's almost like the worst things wecan imagine, right?
Those examples you gave, it's like, how dowe overcome the monster, right?
Yes, exactly.
And it's interesting to note too, as a as aGreek professor, I cannot help myself but to
(07:54):
point out that the origin of this word isactually from a Latin word, the verb monstra,
which means to to show something remarkable,something extraordinary, something awesome,
something awful in the old sense of kind ofinspiring awe, which also is often
accompanied by fear, like our worddemonstrate, right has that monstrous aspect
(08:20):
to it. So it's interesting that the wordjust refers to showing you something
remarkable. But the thing that's shown thatis remarkable is big and scary and
uncontrollable and fascinating.
And it also, very often another kind ofaspect that ties all this together is that
things called monsters or monstrous revealthe radical vulnerability of human beings in
(08:46):
human existence.
Right? There's a stuff that happens to usthat we cannot stop, and it's awful.
So we kind of look at that to figure out howcan we stop it?
How do we survive it?
How do we predict it?
What do we do about it?
Because it's here and, you know, it's stinksto experience it.
Yeah.
It's really it's something that we often likewe can't fully really understand that which
(09:12):
is monstrous. Right.
And so it kind of gives us this sense of thesense of dread in a way when we think about
monsters. And which, of course, brings me tothe obvious sort of next question, which is,
you know, what can we do with this sort ofstudy of monsters?
Like, what's the impact of even talkingabout this idea?
(09:33):
Certainly there's there's a great deal ofinterest in sort of tying the ancient to to
today. Are there things are there other sortof cultural impacts of monsters or things
that we can glean from this that actuallyhelp us deal with this, with this world in
this way?
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
One of the things that comes from lookingthrough the lens of monsters or thinking
(09:56):
about the role of monsters in our societiesor in our cultural belief systems, is that
human beings have a desire to confront andexplore taboo subjects or forbidden desires
in a safe, controlled manner.
And so talking about monsters kind of allowsyou to do that vicariously, right?
Because it's sort of pretend or it's it'smythical or it's not happening to you right
(10:21):
then. And things that are identified as, asmonstrous often are what allow us to point to
something and marginalize it, right, topersecute it.
So historically and culturally, you know,one group of people will point to another
group of people and say they're terrible.
They're awful. You know, it's a racialgroup.
It's an ethnic group.
(10:41):
And call them monsters, right?
They're not like. Us, they're not normal.
And that depiction, that label, which we'reall very familiar with, things that we don't
recognize, we don't like.
It's different, therefore scary.
You can then justify bias anddiscrimination.
So I think that, you know, and this is justone one thing that can happen by thinking
(11:02):
about, you know, what gets called a monsterand who's calling it that and why.
So I think one thing is we can have a moreinformed grasp of how and why things or
people are identified as monstrous, and thatcan lead us to have a more nuanced
appreciation of, you know, who or what isthe quote unquote real monster in a situation
(11:27):
like, for example, you know, the famousnovel by Mary Shelley, Frankenstein.
Right. Doctor Frankenstein creates acreature, he animates a creature, and the
creature is often understood as the monster.
Right? He's big. He's out of control.
He's violent.
But the novel itself will show you that thequote unquote real monster is Doctor
(11:49):
Frankenstein himself, who created thiscreature and then, you know, neglected it.
It's a psychological response to neglect isto become, you know, violent and to not ever
fit in. That's a kind of intellectual,critical inquiry type of outcome that can
come from thinking about monsters and howand why and where is, you know, the violent,
(12:13):
destructive force coming from.
So is there a sort of a way back?
Because by that I really understand thatwhen you when you think about monsters and
how that's used and how we use it to createother right, other from ourselves and how
anything that is or anyone who is differentfrom us in some way, is something to be
feared and then becomes, as you said, amonster to us.
(12:38):
So how do we how do we walk our way backfrom there?
Right as we think about this whole idea of,you know, coming back to humanity, right?
How do we how do we go from monster backinto into what we're trying to be differently
and coexist together?
Yeah. Great question.
Well, I think when we're thinking aboutmonsters in this way, it allows us to think
(13:01):
more broadly about, you know, how societyorganizes and defines itself, what are its
cultural ideals and values, and how is humanexperience depicted?
We see that careful investigation ofmonsters helps us to move towards growth and
change. It will sort of, you know, werethink our social norms and prevailing
(13:23):
opinions and by becoming more informed,learning more carefully how things work, how
these notions come about, we can overcomesome of those anxieties and fears.
And I would also say that it provokes a kindof reflection that helps us to adjust our
notion of, you know, what's monstrous,what's evil, what's violent and destructive,
(13:47):
and what we can do about it, how we canprepare against it.
I think it helps kind of shine a light onwhat is the world like that we live in?
What kind of world do we want to live in,and to what extent do we have some agency to
to steer it in a direction that avoids, youknow, inhumane treatment?
(14:08):
Right? I mean, I think this idea ofeducating to be human, what does it mean to
be human? You have to think about what doesit mean to be inhumane?
Right. And monstrous is very much typicallyassociated with the inhumane.
So if we can see what that is and kind ofevolve our notion of what that is, how it
comes to be, I think it can sort of liberateus from some ignorance, from some sloppy
(14:33):
thinking, and make us just more carefulabout the language we use and where it comes
from.
Yeah, I think that's interesting.
We probably not.
So unlike the ancient Greeks addressing ourfears facing these monsters, right?
It really does help liberate us from, youknow, that kind of simplistic thinking of,
(14:56):
of, you know, of the inhumane.
And you can, you know, think about it justfor you personally as an individual, you
know, what is good, what is not good, whatis desirable, what is not desirable, but also
how we think about the common good, right,and who we want to be and how we want to, you
know, not only educate our kiddos, but sortof build towards a society that resists the
(15:22):
monstrous in as much as we can, but alsovery importantly, I think not not be afraid
of it. Right? Like check our own judgmentand look more carefully and question it.
Because, you know, some people are reallyfascinated by monsters.
They sort of love that they break all therules.
Like that's that's part of the attraction.
So there's a, you know, a wide variety ofways to kind of color this world.
(15:46):
And that's another part of what's fabulousabout working with it.
Right. Because you can kind of take it indifferent directions that, you know, grows
your your thought and more articulate ways.
Yeah, I like this way of of thinking abouthow we could become sort of more resilient
against it, right?
When we see it, whether it's in ourselves orin others, and how we how we can really.
(16:10):
I like how you express how we can thinkabout it.
About the common good and who we want to bein the world we want to live in.
I think that's that's so important.
So are you saying in some ways that monstersare sort of projections of the qualities of
us humans and, and what we don't want toaccept in ourselves or in others?
Absolutely. Yes.
(16:31):
I mean, that's that's a great way to kind oftranslate that, you know, they they are
projections of what we're afraid of, what wedon't like.
And very important, they are projections ofwhat is real, you know, real things in the
world. And so it's talking about monsterslooking at literature and usages of the word.
You see people, you know, wrestling withthings that are common to human existence but
(16:56):
very difficult to deal with and things thatwe want to change.
So we sort of figure out the extent to whichwe might be able to work towards change and
improvement, and to what extent.
It's just always going to be with us.
You know, the fight never stops.
And how do we grow, you know, kind ofresilient and, you know, have the grit, as
(17:16):
they say, to address it, accept it,understand it and just be thoughtful about
your role.
Yeah. So we're sort of like developing a, Iguess you might say, an attentiveness of, of
how we look at monsters and see that they'rehere and that they're in us.
(17:37):
But then at the same time, imagine the kindof world we want to live in.
And then that means actually dealing withthe monstrosities of life in this way.
Exactly.
I'm wondering also if there's some examples,like did the, you know, from the from the
ancient Greek philosophers and the, the, youknow, the myths, was there a similar sense of
(18:01):
conquering, you know, the monster which wasalso conquering that monster within
ourselves? Is there a parallel to that?
There is.
Let me let me tell you two quick stories.
One, you remember Hercules, right?
The Greek Heracles, one of the monsters heslays is the Hydra, and the Hydra is
(18:21):
described as a many headed snake, and hecomes up with a very clever way to cut off
its heads and cauterize with fire.
Right the head, so that they can't growback.
So he solves the problem of the hydra byslaying it.
And one theory about that myth is that thatmyth is a way of talking about.
(18:43):
So Hydra means water, right?
It comes from the word for water.
It was a way of talking about this seasonalflooding that would occur so suddenly.
There would be many rivers, many creeks,many water flows that destroyed crops, you
know, killed the olive trees, what have you.
So solving the kind of meteorologicalproblem of flooding was told through this
(19:07):
story of, of the Hydra.
But really it had to do with something moreboring, like diverting water and creating
reservoirs or what have you.
So it was an allegory for, you know, a sortof concrete problem that was solved.
Another way to answer your question is alsopertains to Heracles.
He's a really interesting hero because he'sheroic when he leaves civilization, goes out
(19:28):
into the wilderness and conquers wild beastsright beyond the pale on the frontiers of
existence. When he comes home, the skillsthat have made him such a fabulous warrior
and slayer of beasts are not skills thatserve him well in civilized society.
He's a little too rough.
He's a little too wild.
(19:49):
He's too bestial.
He's known for, you know, walking aroundwith a, I think, a lion's skin and a pelt on
his back. And he ends up, Hera causes himto, you know, go mad, but he ends up killing
his wife and children, which is a terrible,terrible thing.
And he hates it, and it's awful.
And then that's one of the reasons he goesoff to do the famous 12 labors.
(20:10):
But the idea there is that there's a part ofhim that's fabulously useful to society and
slaying monsters and protecting people, andalso a part of him, that very same skill set
can make him monstrous in his own home.
Right. And so this idea that Greeks are veryinterested in pointing out how we have this
(20:31):
incredible capacity for good and anincredible capacity for, you know,
unfortunate circumstances intended andunintended.
There's there's lots of examples of wherethey sort of talk about the glories, the
great talents of of mankind, right?
The innovations, the things we invent thatmake human life better, and also a lot of
(20:51):
awareness of how we destroy ourselves andour planet and the ones we love.
So there's this awareness that we.
We have to control ourselves.
We have to manage ourselves.
And you do that by looking within, right?
Know thyself and know thyself is one of the,you know, major kind of bumper sticker, pithy
statements from from Socrates over thetemple to Apollo at Delphi.
(21:14):
And the other one is nothing too much.
This idea of sort of moderation don't be sowild as to come home from battle and kill the
people in your own home.
Find the middle path that will sort ofprotect yourself and everyone.
I love that. I think that tension wecertainly live with today in today's society,
(21:35):
and I appreciate being able to think aboutthat almost, that dichotomy that you have
both of these pieces, but the world you wantto live in has to be balanced.
You have to balance that in some way, or goout to the forest or do the 12 labors.
But that is, I think, so important goingforward.
(21:56):
Being able to take this concept out ofmonsters and monstrosity and understand that
it's, it's a lot about the fear of othersand the unknown, but it's also the part of
ourselves. It's in us.
We all have that potential to have thatmonstrosity that it could in fact, serve us
in some way and absolutely doesn't, doesn'tserve us in others.
(22:19):
That's interesting to see how our beliefssort of change over time, and how we've
defined good and bad.
And I can't think of a more relevant timethan today, today's world in 2024, where I
think we face those same kinds of issues andchallenges.
I agree. Yeah, I find it continually usefulto to see the world through this lens really
(22:43):
clarifies things.
Well, is there anything else you want to addto our conversation today?
I have really enjoyed thinking about thiswith you, thinking about monsters and how
they can both empower us and and inform whatwe do as well as very, you know, in a very
thoughtful or thought provoking way, kind ofthink about how they can inspire us in action
(23:08):
in our society.
Yeah, yeah.
I think the inspiring us to action is animportant piece of this.
And a lot of that inspiration, I think,comes from developing a greater clarity just
from our own individual point of view aboutwhat is moral and what is ethical and what we
want to be a part of, and what we want toput a stop to kind of call it out when we see
(23:33):
it. I think it helps kind of sharpen thatawareness.
You know, I'm always encouraging my studentsto take this and use it to change the world
they live in, right?
Constantly making a connection between theold stuff and the life they're living.
That's why this is relevant, right?
This is why we teach it.
This is why we justify making them takethese general education classes.
(23:55):
It's not just for knowledge, you know, in anerudite education.
It's actually helps you think about your ownlife and the world you're living in and sort
of, you know, use the insights of theancients of the previous tradition.
You know, that brings us to this moment.
There's a lot of good thoughts and insightsthat have been had.
And we can we can fruitfully apply them tobe the kind of people and the kind of society
(24:18):
we want to be.
Well, thank you very much, Doctor ErinO'Connell, for sharing these thought
provoking insights with us today and helping us think about the role that monsters have
played in our lives, from ancient times to the present day, and really shaping our
understanding of ourselves and how we perceive difference in the world around us.
You've managed to find monsters everywhere from ancient greek literature to
bio-engineering to some of our favorite stories. I don't think any of else will
think about monsters in the same way again. I know I certainly won't. Thank you again,
Erin.
Thank you. It's my great pleasure.
Thank you, everybody for listening to theshow this week.
This has been Lisa Petrides with Educatingto Be Human.
(24:41):
If you enjoy our show, please rate andreview us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you
listen to your podcasts. You can access ourshow notes for links and information on our
guests. And don't forget to follow us onInstagram at Educating to Be Human and
Twitter X at Edu to Be Human, that is e-d-u to be human.
This podcast was created by Lisa Petridesand produced by Helene Theros.
(25:04):
Educating to Be Human is recorded by NathanSherman and edited by Ty Mayer. (Transcribed by Sonix.ai - Remove this message by upgrading your Sonix account)
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