October 15, 2024 • 24 mins
In this episode of Educating to Be Human, Lisa is joined by Chris Miller, the co-founder of Life Plays, an organization that uses improvisation as a tool to cultivate leadership, creativity, and innovation. Together, they dive into the power of improv, not just as a performance technique but as a valuable life skill that can enhance how we work, lead, and connect with others. By tapping into our natural creativity and learning to embrace uncertainty, improv unlocks a mindset of openness and possibility, ultimately driving more meaningful change in both our personal and professional lives. Through this conversation, we explore how embracing improv helps foster a culture of innovation, empathy, and shared success, deepening our collective human experience.
Chris Miller co-founded Lifeplays in 2001 to bring the radically collaborative skills embedded in improv into innovative organizations. Chris has brought improv-based training to the MBA program at USF, The Big Ideas Fest, and Little Bets Labs, which uses Design Thinking to solve large intractable problems. He holds a degree from the San Francisco Conservatory of Music and in his free time can most likely be found rock climbing, boogie boarding, or playing music.
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(00:08):
Welcome to Educating to be Human,
a podcast where we' ll explore what it means to
be human in today's world at the intersection of
education,
technology,
and culture.
I'm your host,
Lisa Petrides,
founder of the Institute for the Study of Knowledge
Management in Education.
Each week,
I'll speak with people who are supporting
transformative change in education today.
(00:30):
That is,
ordinary people creating extraordinary impact.
Thank you very much for listening.
In this episode of Educating to be Human,
I'm joined by Chris Miller,
(00:52):
co-founder of LifePlays,
an organization that teaches how to integrate the
skills of improv into our work as a way to foster
leadership and innovation.
Chris and I explore how the art of improv can be
used to help us become collaborative problem solvers
and drive meaningful change as we tap into our
(01:13):
innate creativity to enhance our impact as humans.
We break down the core tenets of improv,
such as yes and,
let go of your agenda,
listen in order to receive,
build on what you receive,
make your partner look brilliant,
and one of my favorites,
you can't be wrong.
(01:34):
Together,
we discuss how these ideas can be applied in work,
and specifically in educational settings,
as well as everyday life.
You' ll also hear us talk about Action Collabs,
which is a design thinking approach that was first
introduced as a key component of ISKME's Big Ideas
Fest back in 2009,
(01:55):
and we use it now in many of our professional
trainings where we work with educators to learn how
to tackle real-world challenges using this
collaborative approach that blends human-centered
design thinking with improvisation or improv to
spark creativity and innovation.
Before we dive in,
(02:15):
I'd like to share a clip from 2014 when Chris
opened the Big Ideas Fest with an inspiring talk
about the transformative power of improv.
Chris (02:26):
Improv has given me the ability and the
joy of being surprised and delighted by the
unknown,
the unexpected,
right?
(23:59:59):
There is to walk into that,
to not be threatened by it,
to walk into this with other people and be
changed,
right,
to be flexible,
to know who I am strongly enough that I can know
that if I change,
I' m still me,
but to adjust and see what can be born from this
new relationship in this moment,
right,
by being changed and open and saying yes to my
partner.
And that's what improv is.
We walk on stage with nothing,
and we create something by agreeing with our
partner and making stories,
scenes,
skits,
whatever it is.
So we' re going to start with- Lisa (03:15):
So Chris,
maybe you could start by just describing a bit
what improv is.
Chris (03:21):
Hey, Lisa, sure. So improv,
most people associate improv with comedy,
which it is,
it tends to be funny,
but for our intents and purposes,
it' s a communication skill set about listening and
creating in the moment.
So if you've ever seen a great improv show,
you saw people walk on stage,
and with nothing except the suggestion of an
(03:44):
audience,
maybe it's like the word ' pencil',
begin and create a whole story together seamlessly.
And those skills of collaboration,
what we really focus on bringing to workplaces,
the core skill of improv is called yes,
and.
And the yes is where you accept what your partner
says,
and the and is where you build on it.
So that's the core essence of what improv is with
(04:06):
us.
Lisa (04:07):
Maybe you could even take us through some of
the tenets of improv.
I know yes and,
as you said,
is kind of the core of that.
Can you talk a little bit more about yes and,
and we'll go through a few of the other ones?
Chris (04:20):
Yeah,
actually,
I'll start at the top of the list that kind of
leads into the yes and.
This is how I usually begin workshops,
is dispelling the fear around the ' I' word,
improv,
because it' s kind of scary for people.
They go,
oh,
I' ve got to be funny.
I say,
no,
no,
no.
No,
there' s nothing with being funny,
clever,
witty,
or fast.
There are some principles and practices. And so just
sort of off the top of my head,
(04:41):
the first thing we practice in improv is deferring
judgment.
And by judgment,
I also mean evaluation of any sort,
just being open and present and receiving what the
person gives you without evaluating it in any way,
shape,
or form.
So deferred judgment might be number one.
Number two might be staying present and open.
So again,
that's getting out of your head and present in
the moment.
And then listening in order to receive.
(05:03):
This is the first half of the yes and.
Lisa (05:05):
There' s the let go of your agenda,
right?
Chris (05:07):
Oh,
yeah.
Letting go of your agenda.
Lisa (05:08):
I love that one.
Chris (05:09):
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
Lisa (05:12):
Well,
as somebody who runs an organization,
you know,
I can go in and think,
you know,
I've got a set of great ideas.
Let' s get to it.
And this idea of letting go of your agenda,
especially when you're really in an environment
where collaboration is key to what you do.
Can you just talk a little bit about that?
Let go of your agenda.
(05:33):
What does that really mean?
Chris (05:34):
Yeah,
well,
big agenda and little agenda.
Little agendas live in the moment.
Like my agenda is to get my idea across.
Or my agenda is to make this person agree with
me.
Or my agenda might be,
I want this business strategy to be accepted on a
slightly larger scale.
And the challenge is in the moment,
(05:56):
being flexible with that and saying, 'Okay,
I do have this idea that I want,
and I' m going to let go of it for right now in
service of being more co-creative and collaborative
.' Through the improv,
you learn to trust the process that actually you
will find with something more interesting and more
creative if you do let go of your agenda.
And also,
everyone else around you feels more empowered and
(06:17):
on board.
And like they're contributing and an empowered part
of the team when you do this.
Lisa (06:22):
Got it.
Got it.
There's another one that I really have loved,
which is actually quite controversial,
I think,
which is you can't be wrong.
I love that.
I know.
I know.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Chris (06:37):
Yeah,
yeah.
You can' t be wrong.
In improv,
anything you say,
your partner's job is to use it and to yes and
it.
So you literally can' t be wrong.
Everything is worth exploring.
In the improv world,
it's very fun.
You know,
in the actual stage,
I remember going to see a show years ago,
they' re improvising a story called The Army.
At one point in The Army story,
(06:58):
someone received a care package from their family
and they said, ' Oh,
look,
it has sampoo; shamples.' They got the words
wrong.
And it became this running...
And it became this running thing of like everyone
said, ' Oh,
did you get any sampoo; shamples?' So in the
world of improv,
it' s very delightful when you get these misspoken
things.
Lisa (07:15):
I wonder if,
and I don' t know if there' s something we could
do here together right now,
but I would love to maybe make more apparent and
less elusive this idea about yes and,
and how do we work on that in improv?
Chris (07:30):
Let' s demo something right here,
right now.
Lisa (07:32):
Okay.
I' m game.
Chris (07:35):
Let' s do it.
All right.
Nice.
So you and I are going to tell a story one word
at a time.
And we're going to start with once there was and we'
ll see what happens from there.
Once
Lisa (23:59:59):
there
Chris (23:59:59):
was
a
frog
who
had
very
long
legs.
They
always
bounced
wherever
he
jumped.
One
day
he
tried
to.
See
If.
He.
Could.
Fly.
So.
Then.
He.
Went.
To.
The.
Market.
Place.
And.
Bought.
Some.
Wings.
Okay,
we' ll stop there.
Lisa (08:30):
I like that frog.
He went to the marketplace to buy some wings.
Chris (08:34):
Buy some wings, yeah.
In order to try to fly.
So, embedded in this.
This is on the granular level.
What yes,
and,
is we each of us accepted with the other partner
said.
In terms of the word.
Lisa (08:47):
Yeah.
And when we just were doing that,
I realized like you have to be very present for
it.
Right.
You can't be focused.
You can' t be thinking about what the next thing
is you want to say.
No,
this has to be present and open.
Chris (08:59):
No,
it totally keeps you in the moment.
Absolutely.
In the moment.
Lisa:
(23:59:59):
Chris:
Which is something we could all be doing more,
I think today.
Yeah.
We have another game called Vacations and Vacations
this is about justifying and accepting what your
partner says.
And in this exercise,
we reminisce about a vacation we took together and
each one of us will give the other a little
piece,
just a small,
smallest little nugget of a memory.
Like remember the cake or remember the dog or
remember the elevator.
And then together we,
yes,
and,
and flesh it out.
And then you give them,
then you reciprocally give one back to me.
We go back and forth that way.
Do you want to try that?
Lisa (09:34):
Yeah,
let' s try it.
Chris (09:36):
Okay.
So,
uh,
where,
where are we going on vacation, Lisa?
Lisa (09:38):
We went to Sweden.
Chris (09:43):
Oh,
that was so amazing.
Do you remember that boat?
Lisa (09:46):
I love that boat.
Uh,
remember we went out onto that lake and then there
were some like ice flows there.
Chris (09:53):
I know ice flows.
That' s so weird.
And it is in the middle of summer and we camped
on one.
Remember that we,
oh,
do you remember that tent that we had?
Lisa (23:59:59):
I know I was,
I was worried about,
uh,
that tent because I think some of the water was
coming in and I wasn't sure if it was going to
actually stay afloat.
Chris (10:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it did.
And you got that beautiful suntan from all the
reflected light on the ice.
Lisa (10:14):
I love that.
That was such a great time.
Chris (10:16):
So yeah.
So that's,
that's generally how it works.
Lisa:
Maybe we could show some examples of how yes and
doesn' t work,
right?
Like what are the components of yes,
and.
Chris:
So one thing I love about the whole yes and thing
is that it has different aspects.
So let' s do another vacation.
I' ll demo how this works.
So,
uh,
let' s say we went on vacation.
(10:37):
We went to Mexico.
So you start.
Lisa (10:41):
Chris,
do you remember that time we went to Mexico?
Chris (10:44):
Oh,
I do.
I remember it really well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We went to Mexico.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa (10:49):
And we,
um,
we got off the plane and I remember we weren' t
sure whether we were supposed to,
um,
rent the car there right there at the airport or
whether we were going to try to find a taxi or
something.
Chris (11:02):
I remember that.
Yeah.
We didn' t know.
We didn' t know what to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember that really clearly.
Lisa.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa (11:09):
And so we decided that we should actually.
Chris (11:12):
Okay.
We' ll stop there.
So,
what just happened?
What did I do?
Lisa (11:17):
Well,
you didn' t help me at all,
dude.
Chris (11:19):
No.
I left you out to dry.
Totally.
Totally.
And in improv we call it being a passenger.
And so,
in terms of being creative in the moment,
being a passenger didn' t help the process at all.
It put it all on you.
And I did nothing to help.
Let' s do another one this time.
Let' s say we we went to a different place; we
went on vacation.
Lisa (11:40):
We went to Mendocino,
California.
Chris (11:43):
Mendocino.
Do you remember that trip we took to Mendocino?
Lisa (11:45):
I loved that.
Chris (11:46):
When we first got there,
we found that little cabin.
That cabin had that wood stove.
Do you remember that wood stove in there?
That was so amazing.
Lisa (11:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember I went out.
Chris (11:53):
And you brought all those clothes,
those heavy clothes,
those night clothes.
Lisa (11:57):
We didn' t even need those.
It' s so warm in this cabin.
But I wanted to take a hike at the- Chris:
Remember the beach?
We went down to the beach.
Oh God.
Do you remember that beach?
You found all those shells.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris (12:06):
You made that necklace.
Lisa (12:07):
Yeah.
And I walked down the beach and I- Chris (12:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then we went to that dinner.
Oh,
that amazing dinner.
Okay,
good.
We' ll stop there.
So what happened there?
Lisa (12:16):
Well,
you didn' t let me get a word in edgewise and
you kind of talked over me.
Chris:
I was being a driver and I probably call it being
a driver.
And there are wonderful times and definitely
relevant times it' s great to be a passenger and
great to be a driver.
But in terms of co-creating together and being
collaborative together,
it doesn't serve.
Making those choices have probable outcomes.
(12:38):
Probably if I' m going to be a passenger in a
creative moment,
my partner will dry up,
probably.
If I tend to be a driver in those moments,
I' m not going to reap the benefits of my
partner' s input.
And again,
like I said,
there are wonderful places to be passenger.
If the person's on a total roll and they just
need encouragement,
then it' s great to go - yeah,
(12:58):
yeah,
yeah.
Awesome,
awesome.
I mean,
a driver,
if it dries up or you really have to get your
point across,
it' s totally relevant.
Yeah.
So one more aspect of this.
Let' s say we went on vacation to Egypt.
Okay.
So you go.
Great.
I had always wanted to go to Egypt and I was so
glad when we planned that trip and we went there.
Chris (13:20):
What trip?
Lisa:
Do you remember when we went and we spent two days
in Cairo and then we went out to the-
(23:59:59):
I have no memory of that at all.
Sorry.
Lisa (13:31):
Yeah.
Then remember what we were- Chris (13:31):
Hey,
let' s go get lunch.
Let' s go get lunch.
That' s called blocking.
And blocking just totally shuts down your partner.
Lisa (13:42):
Got it.
I wanted to just sort of kind of read through the
tenets of improv as I understand them.
"Yes,
and" is sort of the core tenet of improv in this
way.
Let go of your agenda.
Listen in order to receive.
Build on what you receive.
Make your partner look brilliant. And, you can' t
(14:05):
be wrong.
It' s quite a list of statements in a way of how
we could live our life,
right?
Of how we could live our life from day to day in
a way to in fact bring our humanity back into the
problem solving of today's greatest challenges,
(14:26):
I would say.
Chris (14:27):
It connects us with people,
right?
Because all of those are in relationship with
someone else or some other people.
So it' s all about connecting and being present
with other people.
Lisa (14:38):
And so,
tell me a bit how you came to use improv to
actually help people in their work.
Chris (14:45):
Well,
it' s funny.
The origin story of Life Plays,
my partner Ann Swanberg was teaching classes and
people were coming over saying, ' God,
this class feels so good.
It' s so warm and connective and supportive and
creative together.' I wish my workplace could feel
like this,
my workplace teams.' And she went,
well,
they can.
So we started working with teams that way within
(15:06):
workplaces.
But basically what it does is it starts giving you
a culture of connection and co-creation.
Lisa:
How does that change or what is the concept of how
that actually changed how we interact in the
workforce?
Chris:
One of the outcomes of creating this collaborative
way is we got something that neither one of us
(15:28):
would have thought,
would have come up with on our own.
And what we lost was control.
There' s a trade-off there.
There' s a trade-off between control and the
reaping of the creative process or the creative
outcome.
By trading off control,
we come up with outcomes that would not be
foreseeably found on our own.
And that' s one of the big takeaways.
And I think the improv really demonstrates that.
Lisa (15:48):
I like how you said this before.
You talked about it' s kind of like flexing a
muscle.
Chris (15:54):
Yeah.
It's like going to a yoga class.
The exercises in yoga,
in and of themselves,
aren’t useful.
You don’t want to stand in line at the bank and
go into downward-facing dog.
But standing in the bank,
you might be using the muscles that you’ve
loosened up and your back won’t tighten up from
doing downward-facing dog.
And same with the improv exercises.
The exercises themselves aren’t terribly useful in
(16:15):
life,
except they are fun and you’re stuck in traffic.
But it changes your mindset and your outlook over
time.
Lisa:
So is it a sense that if we practice that in some
way,
that we' re then able to do it not just to tell
a story about our frog,
but we' re able to do it in a way that helps us
(16:36):
be more creative or maybe even find solutions to
problems that we haven' t been thinking about
before?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Because the interesting part is it' s one thing to
do it in the realm of improv,
but the real payoff is when you start applying it
to the workplace scenarios.
So we do a lot of work with brainstorming
(16:56):
sessions.
Lisa (16:57):
Actually,
maybe we could talk a little bit about Big Ideas
Fest and how you used improv to be able to take
a group of a couple of hundred educators and move
them from sort of the solution that' s ordinary
and right in front of you to something that's
much more about provocation and to be able to kind
(17:19):
of get out of that thinking about what can and
can't be.
Chris (17:22):
So with Big Ideas Fest,
the challenge was to bring the concepts and put
them into a practice.
So we would begin with doing easy improv exercises
that practiced the idea of shared control,
creativity,
and apply it to the problem that we were working
on to solve with the Big Ideas Fest.
What do they call it?
The- Lisa (17:43):
The action collabs?
Chris (17:45):
Action,
yeah.
The action collabs.
Action collabs,
yeah.
So we would encourage people to go for solutions
that made no sense at all,
but embedded in those solutions were ideas that
were viable.
The challenge,
of
course, with educators, and with engineers and people generally
is the idea that you can go beyond the viable
solutions and just trust the fact that embedded
in these outlandish solutions,
(18:06):
there are elements that are usable and viable and
will actually help you reach a more creative
solution than you would have found otherwise.
Lisa:
I know you've talked about improv as really like
an embodied learning.
Can you say a little bit more about that?
What does it mean to have embodied learning?
Yeah.
So embodied learning,
(18:27):
because it's a practice and not a subject,
you can read the words like,
oh,
improv is blank and blank and blank,
but doing the actual improv itself,
it's a practice and you don't get better from
reading it more about it.
You get better from doing it and it lives in your
body.
Often,
I'll notice in workshops,
I'll ask people after they' re done with exercise,
notice how you were standing,
(18:48):
notice what your body was like,
and they'll sort of look down and go,
oh yeah,
it was open and breathing and laughing and smiling
and making eye contact.
This stuff lives in your body.
One of the exercises I do in the beginning of a
workshop sometimes is I'll ask participants and
say,
as I'm talking,
everyone cross your arms and just gently shake your
head no as I'm talking.
(19:08):
And I'll talk and talk and talk.
Okay,
now,
uncross your legs,
uncross your arms,
lean forward,
put your hands on your thighs and just gently nod
your head yes.
And I'll keep talking,
talking.
And I'll say,
okay,
how do you perceive me?
With those two different body shapes? And
(19:29):
invariably,
they'll say,
well,
I didn' t really care what you were saying when
my arms were crossed.
And I' ll say,
how many of you actually kind of didn' t like me?
And then I had a couple of hands,
honest hands will go up.
So this stuff really does live in your body.
And the learning of it,
again,
it' s a practice.
It' s not a subject you read about,
though you can get great ideas,
(19:50):
but it comes down to actually doing a practice and
running the exercises over and over.
And letting it move through you.
Lisa:
I wonder if you could talk a little bit about when
you go into a room,
when you' re maybe going to start a training,
say,
like you're walking into a room of educational
leaders.
(20:10):
Do you as sort of the improv coach or the improv
teacher,
how do you read the room?
Like,
what is it that you see?
And how does that impact your practice?
What a great question.
Yeah.
Because walking in.
Especially the educators,
educators and engineers.
The room often looks a little tense because again,
(20:30):
they have this preconceived notion of what improv
is.
So my whole job in the first five minutes is to
dispel any preconceived notions of what that is.
And I'll often ask people,
when you hear the word improv,
what words come to mind?
Just say,
yeah,
it can' t be wrong.
You know,
spontaneous,
comedy,
funny,
fear,
nervousness,
you know,
whatever it is.
(20:51):
They go,
yeah,
all those are right.
So it's basically,
my first job is to let people open up in their
room and be truly where they are.
It's basically dispelling all the fear in the room
because it can be; people have this idea they have
to show up and be funny and act like a toaster.
It's like,
no,
it's not that at all.
Lisa:
What have you heard people say after they've done
some of your improv training?
(21:13):
Chris:
We actually never know where the big impact is
going to come.
I remember I was working with a company.
It was a leadership workshop.
And one of the people came up and I saw him
months later.
And he goes, ' You know,
the biggest thing,
make your partner look brilliant,' changed my life.
And that one just absolutely changed him,
the idea that you could focus out on someone and
try to make them look brilliant.
(21:35):
Lisa:
Did he say something in particular about how that
helped him change the way he made his partner look
brilliant?
Chris:
He just said that it changed how he saw people and
how he treated them.
I think he was always focused on being right and
being smart.
Because he was very smart.
And it connected him with other people more.
(21:55):
He said it just changed his focus completely.
Lisa:
Are there any other standouts that you remember in
terms of how people have talked about what they've
learned or how their practice or behavior changed
as leaders within their organization?
Yeah,
I' ve heard more than one time about looking for
the 'yes' in leadership roles,
(22:15):
just when people are brainstorming and coming up
with new strategies and business models,
just looking for the yes,
as opposed to being sitting back and being the
all-powerful leader evaluating the diet ideas as
they come in and discarding and winnowing out.
That's the other main one that comes to mind.
It's just that focus of like,
(22:38):
where' s the ' yes' here?
Where is the 'yes'?
Lisa:
Imagine what we could be doing differently today in
the world if we really came with that mindset.
Like,
where's the ' yes'?
Where's the ' yes'?
That is so simple and so powerful.
It is.
It's fundamentally simple and it' s powerful and
more.
Let' s do it more.
(23:00):
Lisa:
Thank you so much for sharing your perspective and
your art and your practice and the training that
you do.
I have to say,
from what you've described and how you've talked
about improv,
it really does seem like a way that we can stay
true to our collective humanity.
What would it really mean if we yes,
and each other and made our partner look brilliant
(23:22):
in the work that we do?
So again,
thank you so much,
Chris.
It was just a pleasure to talk with you.
Oh,
you' re so welcome,
Lisa.
Thank you for having me.
Lisa (23:31):
Thank you,
everybody,
for listening to the show this week.
This has been Lisa Petridis with Educating to be
Human.
If you enjoy our show,
please rate and review us on Apple,
Spotify,
or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
You can access our show notes for links and
information on our guests.
(23:52):
And don' t forget to follow us on Instagram and
Twitter at Edu2BeHuman.
That is E-D-U to be human.
This podcast was created by Lisa Petridis and
produced by Helene Theros.
Educating to be Human is recorded by Nathan Sherman
and edited by Ty Mayer.
Welcome to Educating to be Human,
a podcast where we' ll explore what it means to
be human in today's world at the intersection of
education,
technology,
and culture.
I'm your host,
Lisa Petrides,
founder of the Institute for the Study of Knowledge
Management in Education.
Each week,
I'll speak with people who are supporting
transformative change in education today.
(00:30):
That is,
ordinary people creating extraordinary impact.
Thank you very much for listening.
In this episode of Educating to be Human,
I'm joined by Chris Miller,
(00:52):
co-founder of LifePlays,
an organization that teaches how to integrate the
skills of improv into our work as a way to foster
leadership and innovation.
Chris and I explore how the art of improv can be
used to help us become collaborative problem solvers
and drive meaningful change as we tap into our
(01:13):
innate creativity to enhance our impact as humans.
We break down the core tenets of improv,
such as yes and,
let go of your agenda,
listen in order to receive,
build on what you receive,
make your partner look brilliant,
and one of my favorites,
you can't be wrong.
(01:34):
Together,
we discuss how these ideas can be applied in work,
and specifically in educational settings,
as well as everyday life.
You' ll also hear us talk about Action Collabs,
which is a design thinking approach that was first
introduced as a key component of ISKME's Big Ideas
Fest back in 2009,
(01:55):
and we use it now in many of our professional
trainings where we work with educators to learn how
to tackle real-world challenges using this
collaborative approach that blends human-centered
design thinking with improvisation or improv to
spark creativity and innovation.
Before we dive in,
(02:15):
I'd like to share a clip from 2014 when Chris
opened the Big Ideas Fest with an inspiring talk
about the transformative power of improv.
Chris (02:26):
Improv has given me the ability and the
joy of being surprised and delighted by the
unknown,
the unexpected,
right?
(23:59:59):
There is to walk into that,
to not be threatened by it,
to walk into this with other people and be
changed,
right,
to be flexible,
to know who I am strongly enough that I can know
that if I change,
I' m still me,
but to adjust and see what can be born from this
new relationship in this moment,
right,
by being changed and open and saying yes to my
partner.
And that's what improv is.
We walk on stage with nothing,
and we create something by agreeing with our
partner and making stories,
scenes,
skits,
whatever it is.
So we' re going to start with- Lisa (03:15):
So Chris,
maybe you could start by just describing a bit
what improv is.
Chris (03:21):
Hey, Lisa, sure. So improv,
most people associate improv with comedy,
which it is,
it tends to be funny,
but for our intents and purposes,
it' s a communication skill set about listening and
creating in the moment.
So if you've ever seen a great improv show,
you saw people walk on stage,
and with nothing except the suggestion of an
(03:44):
audience,
maybe it's like the word ' pencil',
begin and create a whole story together seamlessly.
And those skills of collaboration,
what we really focus on bringing to workplaces,
the core skill of improv is called yes,
and.
And the yes is where you accept what your partner
says,
and the and is where you build on it.
So that's the core essence of what improv is with
(04:06):
us.
Lisa (04:07):
Maybe you could even take us through some of
the tenets of improv.
I know yes and,
as you said,
is kind of the core of that.
Can you talk a little bit more about yes and,
and we'll go through a few of the other ones?
Chris (04:20):
Yeah,
actually,
I'll start at the top of the list that kind of
leads into the yes and.
This is how I usually begin workshops,
is dispelling the fear around the ' I' word,
improv,
because it' s kind of scary for people.
They go,
oh,
I' ve got to be funny.
I say,
no,
no,
no.
No,
there' s nothing with being funny,
clever,
witty,
or fast.
There are some principles and practices. And so just
sort of off the top of my head,
(04:41):
the first thing we practice in improv is deferring
judgment.
And by judgment,
I also mean evaluation of any sort,
just being open and present and receiving what the
person gives you without evaluating it in any way,
shape,
or form.
So deferred judgment might be number one.
Number two might be staying present and open.
So again,
that's getting out of your head and present in
the moment.
And then listening in order to receive.
(05:03):
This is the first half of the yes and.
Lisa (05:05):
There' s the let go of your agenda,
right?
Chris (05:07):
Oh,
yeah.
Letting go of your agenda.
Lisa (05:08):
I love that one.
Chris (05:09):
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah.
Lisa (05:12):
Well,
as somebody who runs an organization,
you know,
I can go in and think,
you know,
I've got a set of great ideas.
Let' s get to it.
And this idea of letting go of your agenda,
especially when you're really in an environment
where collaboration is key to what you do.
Can you just talk a little bit about that?
Let go of your agenda.
(05:33):
What does that really mean?
Chris (05:34):
Yeah,
well,
big agenda and little agenda.
Little agendas live in the moment.
Like my agenda is to get my idea across.
Or my agenda is to make this person agree with
me.
Or my agenda might be,
I want this business strategy to be accepted on a
slightly larger scale.
And the challenge is in the moment,
(05:56):
being flexible with that and saying, 'Okay,
I do have this idea that I want,
and I' m going to let go of it for right now in
service of being more co-creative and collaborative
.' Through the improv,
you learn to trust the process that actually you
will find with something more interesting and more
creative if you do let go of your agenda.
And also,
everyone else around you feels more empowered and
(06:17):
on board.
And like they're contributing and an empowered part
of the team when you do this.
Lisa (06:22):
Got it.
Got it.
There's another one that I really have loved,
which is actually quite controversial,
I think,
which is you can't be wrong.
I love that.
I know.
I know.
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Chris (06:37):
Yeah,
yeah.
You can' t be wrong.
In improv,
anything you say,
your partner's job is to use it and to yes and
it.
So you literally can' t be wrong.
Everything is worth exploring.
In the improv world,
it's very fun.
You know,
in the actual stage,
I remember going to see a show years ago,
they' re improvising a story called The Army.
At one point in The Army story,
(06:58):
someone received a care package from their family
and they said, ' Oh,
look,
it has sampoo; shamples.' They got the words
wrong.
And it became this running...
And it became this running thing of like everyone
said, ' Oh,
did you get any sampoo; shamples?' So in the
world of improv,
it' s very delightful when you get these misspoken
things.
Lisa (07:15):
I wonder if,
and I don' t know if there' s something we could
do here together right now,
but I would love to maybe make more apparent and
less elusive this idea about yes and,
and how do we work on that in improv?
Chris (07:30):
Let' s demo something right here,
right now.
Lisa (07:32):
Okay.
I' m game.
Chris (07:35):
Let' s do it.
All right.
Nice.
So you and I are going to tell a story one word
at a time.
And we're going to start with once there was and we'
ll see what happens from there.
Once
Lisa (23:59:59):
there
Chris (23:59:59):
was
a
frog
who
had
very
long
legs.
They
always
bounced
wherever
he
jumped.
One
day
he
tried
to.
See
If.
He.
Could.
Fly.
So.
Then.
He.
Went.
To.
The.
Market.
Place.
And.
Bought.
Some.
Wings.
Okay,
we' ll stop there.
Lisa (08:30):
I like that frog.
He went to the marketplace to buy some wings.
Chris (08:34):
Buy some wings, yeah.
In order to try to fly.
So, embedded in this.
This is on the granular level.
What yes,
and,
is we each of us accepted with the other partner
said.
In terms of the word.
Lisa (08:47):
Yeah.
And when we just were doing that,
I realized like you have to be very present for
it.
Right.
You can't be focused.
You can' t be thinking about what the next thing
is you want to say.
No,
this has to be present and open.
Chris (08:59):
No,
it totally keeps you in the moment.
Absolutely.
In the moment.
Lisa:
(23:59:59):
Chris:
Which is something we could all be doing more,
I think today.
Yeah.
We have another game called Vacations and Vacations
this is about justifying and accepting what your
partner says.
And in this exercise,
we reminisce about a vacation we took together and
each one of us will give the other a little
piece,
just a small,
smallest little nugget of a memory.
Like remember the cake or remember the dog or
remember the elevator.
And then together we,
yes,
and,
and flesh it out.
And then you give them,
then you reciprocally give one back to me.
We go back and forth that way.
Do you want to try that?
Lisa (09:34):
Yeah,
let' s try it.
Chris (09:36):
Okay.
So,
uh,
where,
where are we going on vacation, Lisa?
Lisa (09:38):
We went to Sweden.
Chris (09:43):
Oh,
that was so amazing.
Do you remember that boat?
Lisa (09:46):
I love that boat.
Uh,
remember we went out onto that lake and then there
were some like ice flows there.
Chris (09:53):
I know ice flows.
That' s so weird.
And it is in the middle of summer and we camped
on one.
Remember that we,
oh,
do you remember that tent that we had?
Lisa (23:59:59):
I know I was,
I was worried about,
uh,
that tent because I think some of the water was
coming in and I wasn't sure if it was going to
actually stay afloat.
Chris (10:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it did.
And you got that beautiful suntan from all the
reflected light on the ice.
Lisa (10:14):
I love that.
That was such a great time.
Chris (10:16):
So yeah.
So that's,
that's generally how it works.
Lisa:
Maybe we could show some examples of how yes and
doesn' t work,
right?
Like what are the components of yes,
and.
Chris:
So one thing I love about the whole yes and thing
is that it has different aspects.
So let' s do another vacation.
I' ll demo how this works.
So,
uh,
let' s say we went on vacation.
(10:37):
We went to Mexico.
So you start.
Lisa (10:41):
Chris,
do you remember that time we went to Mexico?
Chris (10:44):
Oh,
I do.
I remember it really well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We went to Mexico.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa (10:49):
And we,
um,
we got off the plane and I remember we weren' t
sure whether we were supposed to,
um,
rent the car there right there at the airport or
whether we were going to try to find a taxi or
something.
Chris (11:02):
I remember that.
Yeah.
We didn' t know.
We didn' t know what to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember that really clearly.
Lisa.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa (11:09):
And so we decided that we should actually.
Chris (11:12):
Okay.
We' ll stop there.
So,
what just happened?
What did I do?
Lisa (11:17):
Well,
you didn' t help me at all,
dude.
Chris (11:19):
No.
I left you out to dry.
Totally.
Totally.
And in improv we call it being a passenger.
And so,
in terms of being creative in the moment,
being a passenger didn' t help the process at all.
It put it all on you.
And I did nothing to help.
Let' s do another one this time.
Let' s say we we went to a different place; we
went on vacation.
Lisa (11:40):
We went to Mendocino,
California.
Chris (11:43):
Mendocino.
Do you remember that trip we took to Mendocino?
Lisa (11:45):
I loved that.
Chris (11:46):
When we first got there,
we found that little cabin.
That cabin had that wood stove.
Do you remember that wood stove in there?
That was so amazing.
Lisa (11:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember I went out.
Chris (11:53):
And you brought all those clothes,
those heavy clothes,
those night clothes.
Lisa (11:57):
We didn' t even need those.
It' s so warm in this cabin.
But I wanted to take a hike at the- Chris:
Remember the beach?
We went down to the beach.
Oh God.
Do you remember that beach?
You found all those shells.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris (12:06):
You made that necklace.
Lisa (12:07):
Yeah.
And I walked down the beach and I- Chris (12:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then we went to that dinner.
Oh,
that amazing dinner.
Okay,
good.
We' ll stop there.
So what happened there?
Lisa (12:16):
Well,
you didn' t let me get a word in edgewise and
you kind of talked over me.
Chris:
I was being a driver and I probably call it being
a driver.
And there are wonderful times and definitely
relevant times it' s great to be a passenger and
great to be a driver.
But in terms of co-creating together and being
collaborative together,
it doesn't serve.
Making those choices have probable outcomes.
(12:38):
Probably if I' m going to be a passenger in a
creative moment,
my partner will dry up,
probably.
If I tend to be a driver in those moments,
I' m not going to reap the benefits of my
partner' s input.
And again,
like I said,
there are wonderful places to be passenger.
If the person's on a total roll and they just
need encouragement,
then it' s great to go - yeah,
(12:58):
yeah,
yeah.
Awesome,
awesome.
I mean,
a driver,
if it dries up or you really have to get your
point across,
it' s totally relevant.
Yeah.
So one more aspect of this.
Let' s say we went on vacation to Egypt.
Okay.
So you go.
Great.
I had always wanted to go to Egypt and I was so
glad when we planned that trip and we went there.
Chris (13:20):
What trip?
Lisa:
Do you remember when we went and we spent two days
in Cairo and then we went out to the-
(23:59:59):
I have no memory of that at all.
Sorry.
Lisa (13:31):
Yeah.
Then remember what we were- Chris (13:31):
Hey,
let' s go get lunch.
Let' s go get lunch.
That' s called blocking.
And blocking just totally shuts down your partner.
Lisa (13:42):
Got it.
I wanted to just sort of kind of read through the
tenets of improv as I understand them.
"Yes,
and" is sort of the core tenet of improv in this
way.
Let go of your agenda.
Listen in order to receive.
Build on what you receive.
Make your partner look brilliant. And, you can' t
(14:05):
be wrong.
It' s quite a list of statements in a way of how
we could live our life,
right?
Of how we could live our life from day to day in
a way to in fact bring our humanity back into the
problem solving of today's greatest challenges,
(14:26):
I would say.
Chris (14:27):
It connects us with people,
right?
Because all of those are in relationship with
someone else or some other people.
So it' s all about connecting and being present
with other people.
Lisa (14:38):
And so,
tell me a bit how you came to use improv to
actually help people in their work.
Chris (14:45):
Well,
it' s funny.
The origin story of Life Plays,
my partner Ann Swanberg was teaching classes and
people were coming over saying, ' God,
this class feels so good.
It' s so warm and connective and supportive and
creative together.' I wish my workplace could feel
like this,
my workplace teams.' And she went,
well,
they can.
So we started working with teams that way within
(15:06):
workplaces.
But basically what it does is it starts giving you
a culture of connection and co-creation.
Lisa:
How does that change or what is the concept of how
that actually changed how we interact in the
workforce?
Chris:
One of the outcomes of creating this collaborative
way is we got something that neither one of us
(15:28):
would have thought,
would have come up with on our own.
And what we lost was control.
There' s a trade-off there.
There' s a trade-off between control and the
reaping of the creative process or the creative
outcome.
By trading off control,
we come up with outcomes that would not be
foreseeably found on our own.
And that' s one of the big takeaways.
And I think the improv really demonstrates that.
Lisa (15:48):
I like how you said this before.
You talked about it' s kind of like flexing a
muscle.
Chris (15:54):
Yeah.
It's like going to a yoga class.
The exercises in yoga,
in and of themselves,
aren’t useful.
You don’t want to stand in line at the bank and
go into downward-facing dog.
But standing in the bank,
you might be using the muscles that you’ve
loosened up and your back won’t tighten up from
doing downward-facing dog.
And same with the improv exercises.
The exercises themselves aren’t terribly useful in
(16:15):
life,
except they are fun and you’re stuck in traffic.
But it changes your mindset and your outlook over
time.
Lisa:
So is it a sense that if we practice that in some
way,
that we' re then able to do it not just to tell
a story about our frog,
but we' re able to do it in a way that helps us
(16:36):
be more creative or maybe even find solutions to
problems that we haven' t been thinking about
before?
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Because the interesting part is it' s one thing to
do it in the realm of improv,
but the real payoff is when you start applying it
to the workplace scenarios.
So we do a lot of work with brainstorming
(16:56):
sessions.
Lisa (16:57):
Actually,
maybe we could talk a little bit about Big Ideas
Fest and how you used improv to be able to take
a group of a couple of hundred educators and move
them from sort of the solution that' s ordinary
and right in front of you to something that's
much more about provocation and to be able to kind
(17:19):
of get out of that thinking about what can and
can't be.
Chris (17:22):
So with Big Ideas Fest,
the challenge was to bring the concepts and put
them into a practice.
So we would begin with doing easy improv exercises
that practiced the idea of shared control,
creativity,
and apply it to the problem that we were working
on to solve with the Big Ideas Fest.
What do they call it?
The- Lisa (17:43):
The action collabs?
Chris (17:45):
Action,
yeah.
The action collabs.
Action collabs,
yeah.
So we would encourage people to go for solutions
that made no sense at all,
but embedded in those solutions were ideas that
were viable.
The challenge,
of
course, with educators, and with engineers and people generally
is the idea that you can go beyond the viable
solutions and just trust the fact that embedded
in these outlandish solutions,
(18:06):
there are elements that are usable and viable and
will actually help you reach a more creative
solution than you would have found otherwise.
Lisa:
I know you've talked about improv as really like
an embodied learning.
Can you say a little bit more about that?
What does it mean to have embodied learning?
Yeah.
So embodied learning,
(18:27):
because it's a practice and not a subject,
you can read the words like,
oh,
improv is blank and blank and blank,
but doing the actual improv itself,
it's a practice and you don't get better from
reading it more about it.
You get better from doing it and it lives in your
body.
Often,
I'll notice in workshops,
I'll ask people after they' re done with exercise,
notice how you were standing,
(18:48):
notice what your body was like,
and they'll sort of look down and go,
oh yeah,
it was open and breathing and laughing and smiling
and making eye contact.
This stuff lives in your body.
One of the exercises I do in the beginning of a
workshop sometimes is I'll ask participants and
say,
as I'm talking,
everyone cross your arms and just gently shake your
head no as I'm talking.
(19:08):
And I'll talk and talk and talk.
Okay,
now,
uncross your legs,
uncross your arms,
lean forward,
put your hands on your thighs and just gently nod
your head yes.
And I'll keep talking,
talking.
And I'll say,
okay,
how do you perceive me?
With those two different body shapes? And
(19:29):
invariably,
they'll say,
well,
I didn' t really care what you were saying when
my arms were crossed.
And I' ll say,
how many of you actually kind of didn' t like me?
And then I had a couple of hands,
honest hands will go up.
So this stuff really does live in your body.
And the learning of it,
again,
it' s a practice.
It' s not a subject you read about,
though you can get great ideas,
(19:50):
but it comes down to actually doing a practice and
running the exercises over and over.
And letting it move through you.
Lisa:
I wonder if you could talk a little bit about when
you go into a room,
when you' re maybe going to start a training,
say,
like you're walking into a room of educational
leaders.
(20:10):
Do you as sort of the improv coach or the improv
teacher,
how do you read the room?
Like,
what is it that you see?
And how does that impact your practice?
What a great question.
Yeah.
Because walking in.
Especially the educators,
educators and engineers.
The room often looks a little tense because again,
(20:30):
they have this preconceived notion of what improv
is.
So my whole job in the first five minutes is to
dispel any preconceived notions of what that is.
And I'll often ask people,
when you hear the word improv,
what words come to mind?
Just say,
yeah,
it can' t be wrong.
You know,
spontaneous,
comedy,
funny,
fear,
nervousness,
you know,
whatever it is.
(20:51):
They go,
yeah,
all those are right.
So it's basically,
my first job is to let people open up in their
room and be truly where they are.
It's basically dispelling all the fear in the room
because it can be; people have this idea they have
to show up and be funny and act like a toaster.
It's like,
no,
it's not that at all.
Lisa:
What have you heard people say after they've done
some of your improv training?
(21:13):
Chris:
We actually never know where the big impact is
going to come.
I remember I was working with a company.
It was a leadership workshop.
And one of the people came up and I saw him
months later.
And he goes, ' You know,
the biggest thing,
make your partner look brilliant,' changed my life.
And that one just absolutely changed him,
the idea that you could focus out on someone and
try to make them look brilliant.
(21:35):
Lisa:
Did he say something in particular about how that
helped him change the way he made his partner look
brilliant?
Chris:
He just said that it changed how he saw people and
how he treated them.
I think he was always focused on being right and
being smart.
Because he was very smart.
And it connected him with other people more.
(21:55):
He said it just changed his focus completely.
Lisa:
Are there any other standouts that you remember in
terms of how people have talked about what they've
learned or how their practice or behavior changed
as leaders within their organization?
Yeah,
I' ve heard more than one time about looking for
the 'yes' in leadership roles,
(22:15):
just when people are brainstorming and coming up
with new strategies and business models,
just looking for the yes,
as opposed to being sitting back and being the
all-powerful leader evaluating the diet ideas as
they come in and discarding and winnowing out.
That's the other main one that comes to mind.
It's just that focus of like,
(22:38):
where' s the ' yes' here?
Where is the 'yes'?
Lisa:
Imagine what we could be doing differently today in
the world if we really came with that mindset.
Like,
where's the ' yes'?
Where's the ' yes'?
That is so simple and so powerful.
It is.
It's fundamentally simple and it' s powerful and
more.
Let' s do it more.
(23:00):
Lisa:
Thank you so much for sharing your perspective and
your art and your practice and the training that
you do.
I have to say,
from what you've described and how you've talked
about improv,
it really does seem like a way that we can stay
true to our collective humanity.
What would it really mean if we yes,
and each other and made our partner look brilliant
(23:22):
in the work that we do?
So again,
thank you so much,
Chris.
It was just a pleasure to talk with you.
Oh,
you' re so welcome,
Lisa.
Thank you for having me.
Lisa (23:31):
Thank you,
everybody,
for listening to the show this week.
This has been Lisa Petridis with Educating to be
Human.
If you enjoy our show,
please rate and review us on Apple,
Spotify,
or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
You can access our show notes for links and
information on our guests.
(23:52):
And don' t forget to follow us on Instagram and
Twitter at Edu2BeHuman.
That is E-D-U to be human.
This podcast was created by Lisa Petridis and
produced by Helene Theros.
Educating to be Human is recorded by Nathan Sherman
and edited by Ty Mayer.
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