The front line is loud, but the mindset behind it is louder. Chief Scott Hughes joins us to unpack the lived reality of hypervigilance, why officers won’t sit with their backs to the door, and what constant scanning does to stress, health, and family life. From there, we dig into an uncomfortable truth: we expect “major league” perfection from police while funding “T-ball” training. Hughes argues for a new model built on daily fundamentals, stress-inoculated scenarios, and real coaching that turns good judgment into second nature.
We also tackle the swelling scope of police work. Understaffing and attrition have left fewer veterans to mentor new officers, even as the call mix expands to mental health crises and social conflicts that law enforcement shouldn’t always own. Hughes lays out practical alternatives: triage that reserves cops for genuine public safety threats, partnerships with clinicians, and clear guidelines that reduce needless escalations and liability. When seconds count and less-lethal tools don’t always work, policy must meet reality.
Use of force sits at the center of public debate, and we confront the myths head-on. Objectively reasonable force often begins when instructions are ignored, and what the public sees in a five-second clip rarely shows the chaos officers face. We offer simple, actionable tips for safer traffic stops—hands visible, dome light on, wait for direction—and a candid look at why force never looks “good” on a sidewalk. If communities want fewer errors and better outcomes, the fix is straightforward and hard: fund meaningful practice, align responsibilities with expertise, and keep talking about the why behind tactics.
If this conversation helped clarify the how and why of modern policing, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review telling us which change you’d fund first.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
The front line of policing is loud, but the voices
behind it, you know, they're alot louder and I think, frankly,
a lot more interesting.
Hi, I'm Bob Plaschke, and thisis First Response.
This is the uh number onepodcast that takes you behind
the badge and uncovers realstories and experiences of first
responders from all walks oflife and the topics that shape
(00:25):
public safety today.
If you're curious about the guyor the gal behind the hero, and
they are indeed truly heroes,and the topics that they care
about, take a listen.
This is kind of your front rowseat to hearing some of the
really interesting voices outthere and more importantly the
heroes.
This podcast is sponsored byPepperBall, where I have the
honor to serve as CEO.
(00:47):
PepperBall creates unlethalalternatives to guns at least
used to keep themselves and thepublic safe.
So today, super excited, uh,joined uh by uh Chief Scott
Hughes, the chief of police ofthe Hamilton Township in Warren
(01:09):
County, Ohio.
It's just north of Cincinnati.
Uh and being born and raised inLouisville, Kentucky.
Cincinnati was always the rivaluh city.
It was always the big city,actually, when we were in
Louisville.
So it's fun to talk to someoneclose to where I grew up.
Uh uh Chief um has been thechief there since 2016.
(01:29):
He's got a decades-long andwonderful experience in policing
and spends a lot of his time,his off time on the road doing
um consulting, helping otheragencies across the country
really um um understand thechallenges that they're facing,
whether it be leadership ortraining, and help them kind of
(01:53):
come to the the uh thesolutions that they can uh
control and enact in their ownlocal agencies.
Chief Hughes is a graduate ofthe FBI National Academy, um,
which is a very prestigious partof the training that uh a
select set of chiefs get to gothrough, and um uh has a number
of degrees in topics that arerelating to public safety and
(02:17):
policing.
So, Chief, you know, when wewere talking before, you
mentioned you like to tell orlike to help the folks um that
don't have a lot of experiencein policing kind of understand
why police officers do what theydo.
Here's my first question.
When I take a police uh officerout to lunch um or to a
(02:41):
meeting, they always want tohave the chair that has their
chair backs to the back of theof the restaurant.
So why do they do that?
Why do they do that?
Speaker (02:54):
Well, well, first of all, Bob, thanks for having me
on your program.
It's an honor to be here.
Yeah, that is a that is aclassic, you can always tell
when you walk into therestaurant who the cops are
because they always have their,they don't have their back to
the door.
You know, we are brought up inan environment where situational
awareness is critical.
We want to be that first lineof defense, and we are in this
(03:16):
constant state of what I'm gonnacall hypervigilance, where we
are always on the lookout forthreats, and we never want to be
caught off guard.
So anytime you're you're gonnasee us in a public place, you
can expect somebody in thatgroup's job is to watch the door
and watch the surroundings.
Uh, in fact, uh when I firststarted dating my wife, it drove
(03:38):
her nuts.
Now, now her and our twochildren, they just know don't
even try to sit in that chair orin that booth where your father
can't see the door.
And if if we're really feelingparanoid, we're gonna ask to be
seated close to an exit.
(03:59):
So in case we have to make aquick escape, we have uh we have
a direct route.
So yeah, it just comes from itjust comes from the training and
the in the uh experiences thatyou know you never want to get
you never want to get caught offguard.
We are protectors, we want toprotect everyone.
Well, we can't protect them ifwe don't have the upper hand.
So that is that is a classiclaw enforcement um uh uh thing.
(04:25):
That's an official that's yeah,that's an official cop term
thing, is uh you don't sit withyour back to the door.
So next time you go out and yousee three or four police
officers in uniform and they'reforced to sit at a round table,
uh probably rank or paper rockscissors picked who has to sit
with their back to the door.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
It's um um when I first startedto um um uh serve or you know,
uh sell to and um and meet withpolice officers, the first
couple of times I would um Iwould take the the the seat
furthest away to out of courtesycould it make them have not
have to walk as far.
And uh the first couple ofdinners, these poor police
(05:10):
chiefs sitting there and andthey were just noticeably
uncomfortable.
And finally, I think it was mysecond or third time.
One of my um advisors who was aformer police chief, um Chris
Moore from San Jose, he pulledme aside and he said, he said,
you know, could you be any morerude?
Rude?
(05:31):
What he goes, he goes, youknow, these you know, police
officers to your point, theythey need you know that they're
they're constantly vigilant andthey and and so you're making
them uncomfortable.
So why don't you be berespectful and give them the
chair?
Speaker (05:44):
It's that or that or you gotta carry the gun.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's exactly right.
It's like one or the other.
Yeah.
Um, you know, um and uh out ofcuriosity, does that follow you
to, you know, um, when you'reout watching a baseball game,
when you're out, I mean, I youknow, I and I this is something
I always have deep uh sympathyfor.
I can't say empathy because I'mnot a police officer, but
(06:09):
sympathy in the sense to are youwhen you're in public, I guess
you're always hyper-vigilant,even when you're on your free
time.
Speaker (06:15):
You know, you you really are.
And you know, uh, you know, youjust unfortunately with what
goes on in society today, youknow, we um like I said before,
we we have to stay thathyper-vigilant because we want
to we want to be able to detectthese threats.
And uh, you know, that's alsothere's also another side of
that argument, and that is thatthat constant state of
(06:35):
hypervigilance.
And there's a lot of expertsout there that that get way more
uh educated and smarter than meon this on this topic.
So I'll just I'll give youenough to sound like I know what
I'm talking about, and that isthat this this constant state of
hypervigilance uh actually canbe unhealthy for you.
And what I mean by that is theadded stress, you know, what
(06:56):
that stress does to yourcortisol and and and just just
you know your heart, justeverything, right?
I mean, there's a there's a tonof folks that need to come on
here and they can explain whatall that actually does to you
internally, but it does addstress because you never really
get to relax, right?
Like you never get to just calmdown.
I mean, even on a quote unquotevacation, you know, you're on a
(07:17):
beach with people, you'rescanning around, you're looking.
You never really get to letyour guard down.
And, you know, that's just kindof I don't want to say it comes
with the job, but it kind ofjust comes with the job.
I mean, uh I think it like itcomes with a job.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I mean, I think, you know, um, and it's it's unique
to police officers, there'scorrection um officers who I
think to some degree um cancontain that because theirs is
based on a facility.
Um, and firefighters don't havethat same issue.
They don't actually, they don'treally feel that kind of stress
because for them, absent of a afire or a health issue, they
(07:55):
aren't really looking for it.
They're more reactive.
I, you know, and I think Idon't for for me, I've just
become super appreciative.
It's one of the few in umprofessions that I can think of
that has that that constantstress, even you know, kind of
on the job, off the job, onvacation, you know, traveling.
You're that's it, it comes withthe job, but that's a it's a
(08:18):
it's a huge sacrifice, aphysical and mental sacrifice
that officers make when they umwhen they when they swear uh an
oath to the badge.
Speaker (08:27):
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely correct.
And there's been a lot ofcases.
When I say a lot, I can'tquantify that number, but
there's there there's there'sbeen there's been cases in the
news over the last several yearswhere you know good Samaritans
in the right spot have haveended threats or you know have
have been phenomenal witnessesthat have led to the arrest or
you know, apprehension of folks.
(08:47):
And you know, it's not justreally police officers.
We need everyone to kind ofremain vigilant, right?
You know, especially withwhat's going on in the world
today.
And, you know, right or wrong,there's people out there that
don't like us.
You never know where you'regonna be and you know what what
might occur.
So to some degree, you wanteveryone to remain vigilant.
What we what law enforcementofficers do is I guess we're
(09:08):
just a little more extravigilant when we're around those
that may not be as vigilant.
How's that?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Well, and and again, I just think it's um, you know,
it's it's it's a simplequestion, but it leads to a
bunch of um of outcomes um thatyou don't think about, which is
the stress that police officersum sit under.
Um the um, you know, the one ofthe topics, um, there'll be two
things we'll talk about today.
Um, one is the the work you doin terms of helping people
(09:36):
understand use of force and whenyou used it and when you can
avoid it and how how to thinkabout that.
Um but the other topic, it's uhyou just was one of a blog that
you recently wrote and talkedabout um we call um um policing
a profession, which itdefinitely is, but we don't
treat it like a you know, Ithink you use the reference like
(09:58):
a major league uh profession,right?
Where you know those thoseathletes have the trainers, the
mental health, the physical, theevery all the tools they need.
And when you in a policingcontext, when you have people
that are literally hold life anddeath in their hands every day,
they don't get that same levelof training.
Um so on on that topic, let mejust open the floor to you.
(10:21):
You know, what what is thestate of policing today in terms
of getting the right level oftraining?
Is it going in the rightdirection, the wrong direction?
What needs to happen?
Speaker (10:32):
I think I think that's a very loaded question.
I'm gonna sound like I'mtalking out both sides of my
mouth.
So I hope your your viewerswill will understand this.
That's a very complex question.
Um, let me start off by sayingthis.
Here in my state of Ohio, to bea police officer, it takes
approximately 740-ish hours tocomplete the police academy,
(10:55):
right?
740, 750, somewhere in thatrange.
For for sake of just argument,we're gonna say less than 800.
That's that's fair.
It takes 1,800 hours in mystate to be a barber, and it
takes 1,500 hours in my state tobe a cosmetologist.
That is nothing, uh, I'm notI'm not downplaying what it
(11:18):
takes to be a barber orcosmetologist, um, because I've
never I've never done that job.
What I have done since themid-90s is law enforcement, and
I can tell you that thesituations that we are thrusted
into and decisions that we areexpected to make, there's no
room for error.
And in law enforcement, we'veseen this around the country
(11:38):
where officers are are are arevilified, criminally charged,
etc., for quote unquote makingan error when we're not giving
them the types of training tonot make those errors.
To your point about that blogpost that I wrote, my comparison
to the Major League Baseball uhteam is this I've heard that
(11:58):
the an average Major LeagueBaseball player shows up to a
baseball stadium uh six to eighthours before the game starts.
And in that time frame, they'lldo everything from have a meal
to work with the physicaltrainer, you know, getting
stretched, getting loose.
They will do fundamentalexercises to include batting
practice, uh, ground balls,they'll do fielding exercises,
(12:23):
they watch film, they'll stretchagain, six to eight hours
before the game starts.
And the reason they do that isbecause these individuals have
one job, and that job is to goout there on that field and do
the best job that they can do.
Major League Baseball playersare conditioned to never make an
error.
That's why, when a routine flyball gets dropped in the
(12:47):
outfield, that's why everysports channel is replaying it
over and over and over againbecause that baseball player is
trained to never let thathappen.
We give our officers minimal,minimal ongoing training to to
(13:07):
uh on fundamentals, right?
We give them very minimal,minimal.
So then we we we give themthings like um watch this video
online, watch this webinar, andthat's just check the box
training.
We don't give them stressinoculation where we're making
it like second nature, if youwill, right?
A baseball player, you you youyou can see this analogy, right,
(13:30):
Bob?
Like baseball player, fly balloff the bat, he he knows where
he reads it off the bat, heknows where to go.
It's just another catch, right?
We're not conditioned in lawenforcement to that same to that
same standard.
So I compare, you want us to beMajor League Baseball players,
never make an error in lawenforcement, but you give us
T-ball training.
My my 12-year-old does the doesfundamentals 45 minutes to an
(13:56):
hour and a half before every oneof his baseball games at 12
years old.
The average police officershows up, you know, 15, 20
minutes before his shift starts,goes into roll call, gets
briefing, and then he has to goout and start answering calls,
right?
Yep.
And and he and he and he andhe's and he and he's not so the
so so now your listeners arelike, well, what's the answer?
What's the answer?
What's the answer?
Well, I think I think that'sthe loaded question, and that's
(14:17):
where it gets very, verycomplicated because I think it
comes from several differentsources.
The the the first one, theelephant in the room is
somebody's got to pay for it.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yep.
Speaker (14:27):
Uh somebody's got to pay for the funding to to pull
officers from the streets,backfill it with with with
overtime, so that the officerscan get that kind of training,
right?
That's the first thing.
The second thing is I think theprofession as a whole is not
designed to give us the kind oftraining we need.
Now, when I say the kind oftraining we need, I mean
(14:48):
instinctive responses where copsdon't have to think about it.
Well, the only way you can dothat is constant, ongoing,
daily, right?
Daily type of training.
Again, back to my baseballanalogy, other than the four or
six teams that are still left inthe majors right now in this
season, all the other baseballplayers, they're back at their
homes doing what they do intheir offseason.
(15:09):
But I guarantee you this everyday they're doing something
baseball related to stay readyfor the for the upcoming season.
We don't do that in lawenforcement, right?
So so that's kind of the miss.
But then again, when an officergoes out here and he makes a
traffic stop at two o'clock inthe morning, it's pitch black,
and he engages in a in a footpursuit, and the suspect turns
(15:30):
around and points something athim like that real fast, and he
pulls his gun, he doesn'trealize, is that a gun or was
that the cover to the camera?
Like, you know, right, and theymake those split second
decisions.
So a long-winded answer or along-winded statement, I guess,
to your question, with probablyno answer, other than law
(15:54):
enforcement is notorious,notorious, absolutely notorious
for whatever whatever the thebig pressing issue is.
That's what we're gonna, we'regonna we're gonna start training
in that, right?
So, you know, a couple yearsago, it was all about
de-escalation, de-escalation,yeah.
We've been de-escalating beforethe word de-escalation ever
came into play, right?
(16:14):
It's just communication.
All de-escalation, all that isis communication.
And and and there's and there'sa group of people who think
that de-escalation is thismagical say this, don't say
that.
Like use this phrase, and thiswill always de-escalate people.
And that's not reality.
You're dealing with individualswho are under the influence of
alcohol, drugs, suffering frommental illness, a combination of
(16:36):
all three.
You can be the nicest personyou can, and they're not gonna
be de-escalated.
So, somewhere along the way,there was a group of folks that
felt like, well, officers shouldde-escalate every situation.
We have police departmentsputting words in policies like
officers must de-escalate.
Well, that's not fair to thecops.
They must de-escalate, butwe're only gonna give you uh 20
(17:00):
hours of training for the entireyear, and that's gonna be on
everything but de-escalation.
If we do give you de-escalationtraining, you're gonna watch a
webinar, check a box, and sayyou were trained, but that's not
gonna be the realities of thestreet.
So I digress.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
No, no, no.
I mean, I mean, I think you'rejust articulating um you had
said on earlier before westarted, you said it's the uh uh
same crap, different badge isthat every off every same crap,
different same crap, differentpatch.
Speaker (17:30):
Yeah.
Different patch.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Sorry, different patch, yeah.
Um, and which means that, youknow, and I and I because I hear
the same theme across thecountry as I visit police chiefs
in my work.
Um, and one um I I can onlythink of uh maybe uh the vast
majority of the agencies I visitare understaffed, and they've
(17:52):
been understaffed since COVIDand since George Floyd.
Um the under beingunderstaffed, and you know, and
and and that is with the 700hours or seven, eight hundred
hours of of uh training.
Um they have to, you know, theyhave to get people through the
academies and get them throughand get them trained.
So they're they've got theirexisting staff is facing lots of
(18:13):
overtime, which is additionalstress, where they before used
to have the old, you know, inthe you think about what you see
on TV where you have the oldgrizzled veteran sitting shotgun
with the the new guy, thatdoesn't happen.
Um these new guys are on theirown.
And you got kids training kids.
Kids training kids.
And you have um, and then Ithink the range of of issues
(18:35):
that police face now versus 20years ago is you know almost 2x
in terms of mental illness,mental, uh mental challenges,
societal challenges, the thetype of protests, the and the
and finally not to add it, youknow, kind of uh fire, you know,
kind of sell past the close,but you have a uh you have a
(18:58):
unfortunately you have a groupof citizens who are
unfortunately trust has dropped.
I think trust in public safetyhas dropped and police officers
drop below 50% for the firsttime ever, where the majority of
people do not trust, do nothave a sense of full trust in
the police officer, which makesthe job even harder.
Speaker (19:17):
Yeah, well, the the other thing we have is is we we
should, we as a profession, lawenforcement, law enforcement
should not be going to some ofthe calls that we are sent to.
We should not be the, well, Idon't know who else to call, so
I just called 911, and you know,well, we have to go.
Like we that is a that is a uhanother area in this profession
(19:40):
that that needs to be addressed.
The issue is nobody knowswhat's the answer, right?
Like, am I going to be liableif I don't go and something
happens?
Uh what if, you know, if if ifhere's an example.
If there's a guy or a gal intheir house by themselves and
they've called 911 and said, Iam suicidal.
(20:00):
Sir, is there anyone elseanyone else in the house with
you?
No, I'm by myself.
Okay, if the officers canverify there's no one else in
that house, it is a suicidalthreat, not a homicidal threat.
What's law enforcement supposedto do?
Right?
And if because here's what'sgonna happen.
If we go to that call, it'sgonna turn into a barricaded
(20:21):
situation.
We're gonna notify the SWATteam, SWAT's gonna come out.
Some SWAT teams are gonna dowhat's called a surrounding call
out.
They're gonna surround thehouse, they're not gonna go in,
they're gonna yell in thebullhorn for hours.
They're gonna fire tear gas,pepper balls into the house and
try to get the individual tocome out.
If they don't come out, we'regonna send a robot in.
If the robot doesn't find them,eventually we're gonna send
(20:42):
police officers in, and thenthey're gonna find them, and now
the officers are gonna have tobe forced to use deadly threat
because the guy or gal is gonnacharge at them with a knife.
Then that family, the estate,is gonna sue law enforcement,
and they're gonna say we causedhis death, or what the whatever
the case might be, or worse, acop's gonna get hurt or killed.
Correct.
(21:02):
Why are we even there?
So we have to stop using lawenforcement as this last resort
and forcing these guys with 740hours.
We are not mental healthexperts.
We are not trained to go tothese homes and talk about
(21:23):
feelings and beliefs and thiskind of stuff.
We're cops, and that's a that'spart of that whole big problem.
So I will digress again.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
No, no, but I I think it's it's reality and it's what
it's you know, and I we hear itagain and again on this podcast
is um um police chiefs comingin and and and just articulating
the challenges.
Um to you to your pointpreviously, we've the the the
industry's made great strides inservicing the issues around
mental health and putting mentalhealth training and and and
(21:57):
kind of a buddy system as bestone can do, and having mental
health professionals availablefor police officers.
So that's been a I think animprovement in the
acknowledgement that thosemental health issues are there.
I think I've seen uh um uh thefocus on your personal health
and the uh the facilities andthe training so you can get the
(22:18):
the the the physical trainingthat you need and the and the
frankly the the kind of the away to to burn off a lot of the
stress through physicalexercise.
I've seen improvements there.
I think the the but they're uhto some degree they're band-aids
to a much larger challenge,which is as you've described, a
(22:38):
set of sits a set ofcircumstances that um officers
shouldn't are not trained todeal with.
They have to because they'rethe only people that answer 911,
but you you don't want them todo it.
Um turning our attention, um,at least I'd like to turn and
talk about this notion of use offorce.
Um I try to explain to myfriends, and I say, look, the uh
(22:59):
police officers have beentrained in a in a and the
majority of their training talksabout how to de-escalate a
situation, how to communicate,and how to only, if necessary,
um increase the use of force togain control of the situation.
And I and I try to talk aboutit in the sense of that their
(23:22):
focus is to gain control of thesituation, you know, and it may
or may not lead to an arrest,but it's get control so that the
safety of the officer, thesafety of the subject you're
dealing with, and the peoplearound them, you you know, you
you focus on that first.
But with that as a context, canyou describe when when you hear
the word use of force andincreasing use of force, what
(23:43):
does that mean?
How do how should we as a as anon-officer think about that?
Speaker (23:47):
Every use of force begins because of three words
that the individual uh causes.
Well, let me let me say thatagain.
Individuals cause officers touse force because of because of
three words failure to comply.
Every use of force would bepreventable if individuals
(24:09):
complied.
Right?
So let's let's just say thatright now, right?
Uh all the cases that you'veseen around this country,
whether they're you know, uh nomatter what they are, it started
with an individual did notcomply.
So it's we gotta put some ofthe responsibility back on the
(24:30):
individuals who are putting ourofficers in these positions,
okay?
The use of force by law has tobe what's called objectively
reasonable, right?
So, you know, again, this is amuch, much, much more longer,
in-depth, you know,conversation, and there's a lot
of folks out there that are thatare that are that are way
smarter than me.
(24:50):
Um, but in in essence, everyforce that we have to use, we we
want to try to accomplish anarrest using the least amount of
force as possible.
Now, that doesn't mean it'salways going to work, right?
Every there there there's athere's a uh portion, if you
will, of population who, becauseof TV, movies, their own
(25:12):
self-belief, they think thatevery every time you use any
type of less than lethal weapon,whether it's a taser, a
pepperball, an asputon, um,other technology, it's out
there, that well, that willalways work.
And you know, you know, you'rethe CEO of the comp of
pepperball, you know, hey,that's not always the case,
right?
We know that there's a highpercentage of cases that do
(25:35):
resolve themselves, but notevery one of them.
So for a police officer, if myintent is I'm gonna go with this
less lethal option, if itdoesn't work, there's only most
likely one other option then ifthe less lethal option doesn't
work, right?
Nowhere does it say that apolice officer has to get
(25:55):
injured, hurt, or certainlykilled to defend themselves or
someone else.
And you know, this does notsound sexy or politically
correct to some, but the onlyway to overcome violence is more
superior violence, right?
I mean, again, that doesn'tsound like that's not friendly,
(26:15):
but that's the reality.
I mean, if if someone'spunching you and punching you
and punching you and fighting,fighting, you have to be a
better fighter to win.
Using force is no different.
The issue for law enforcementis we we're not street fighters,
right?
So, I mean, we're not just outthere just throwing haymakers,
just you know, going.
We we do try to follow somesome sort of a system or some
(26:37):
sort of a of a policy, but youcan have all the policies and
procedures in the world.
And the reality is this use offorce is ugly.
I have a friend of mine whooften says the only place the
use of force looks good is inthe mat room.
The mat room is where cops aretrained on the mats, right?
That's the only place thatlooks good.
On the street, it never looksgood.
(26:57):
There's so many variables thatyou're concerned about on the
side of the road.
And and until you stood next toa car and you're trying to put
someone's hands behind theirback who don't want their hands
behind their back, or untilyou've you've tried to break up
a fight where people arescreaming and they're jumping in
and they don't want to beseparated, until you've been in
that position, it's hard foranyone to truly understand what
(27:20):
it's like.
It's kind of like back to mybaseball analogy, it's kind of
like me sitting on the couch acouple weeks ago watching my
favorite baseball team yelling,swing the bat.
You don't you don't know what a104 mile an hour forcing
fastball looks like coming outof someone's hand.
(27:40):
And then the next pitch is an80 mile an hour change.
Like, who am I?
Like, you don't know whatthat's like to stand there.
And I and again, I'm not I'm afirm believer in this.
And this, you know, some arejust gonna not believe me at
all, and some might actuallyturn off the podcast after I say
this, but I'm a firm believerthat the that most police
(28:00):
officers, the overwhelmingmajority of them, get in this
profession for the right reasonsand come out here every single
day and they do the right thingfor the right reasons.
I believe we do a really goodjob of holding those who need to
be held accountableaccountable.
I also think we do a bad jobsometimes at explaining why cops
do what they do, which is whywhen you reached out to me, yes,
(28:21):
sign me up, let me get on.
As I told you before, we werecorded, the more folks that I
can talk to who will listen tomy me, um uh uh my dumb brain
here, the more the better,right?
The more folks that I canhopefully help educate,
especially non-law enforcementfolks.
Um, you know, I do this when Itravel the country speaking and
and and whatnot, I I always dothis analogy.
(28:43):
I always ask, or I'm notanalogy, I always do this
exercise, Bob.
And that exercise is this.
I always ask those in the roomto point their fingers at me
like they have a gun in theirhand.
Okay, so I'll get the wholeroom to point their finger at
me.
And then I take my gun and Ipoint it at my own head, and I
and I tell the audience this I'mgonna say the alphabet from the
(29:06):
letter A to the letter D as indonkey.
When I get to D as in Donkey,I'm taking this gun that's
currently pointed at my head,and I'm gonna point it at you.
All you have to do is yellbang.
That's it.
I'm gonna say the out, I'mgonna say the alpha the uh A B C
D just like you were taught inpreschool, there's no there's no
tricks, I promise.
(29:27):
So they all got their fingerspointed at me, they're all ready
to go.
And I go, A, B, C, D, and Ipoint my finger at them.
And every one of them is lateat yelling bang.
And I say to them, You did notbeat me.
You know, and I hear thingslike, Well, that was fast.
Well, yeah, that's lawenforcement, right?
(29:49):
Like you knew, you knew when Iwas gonna take this gun from my
own head and point it at you.
Now, can you imagine an officermakes a traffic stop and a guy
jumps out?
Of his car, and he's got hishand to his he's got a gun to
his head like this, and thepolice officer gets out of the
car and goes boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
He would be criticized to theend of the world.
(30:09):
Well, why'd you shoot him?
The gun was pointed at himself.
He wasn't a threat to you.
I just proved to you how quickI can do that.
An officer on the streetdoesn't know if I'm gonna take
the gun from my head and pointit at D as in donkey, Q as in
Queen, Z as in zebra, or A, hedoesn't know when he's gonna do
it.
And nowhere does it say that Ishould have to wait and see what
(30:31):
he's gonna do before I decideto use force or defend myself or
someone else.
So that same friend that tellsme the use of force only looks
good on the mat also says thatlaw enforcement's the hardest
job in America.
And I yeah, I I I agree.
It's the hardest job inAmerica, and as a profession,
we've got so much work to dowith how we're training, and
(30:55):
it's it's it's a much deeper uhissue than you know just money
and and it it's how we're it'sit's scheduling, it it's just
it's it's everything, you know.
When you you said it a coupletimes, you know, law enforcement
training.
I don't know if we're trainedor if we've we've gathered
information, right?
Like to be trained to whereit's second nature, we're back
(31:17):
to that whole major leaguebaseball player analogy or any
sport for that matter.
So, you know, we are makingprogress.
We got a lot of work to do.
Uh, I feel like sometimes wejust kick the can down the road.
I think there's some chiefs andsome executives who just hope
it doesn't happen here, and uh,that's probably the wrong
mindset to have.
Uh that's not my style.
(31:38):
You know, I'm gonna do what Ican at my department and worry
about my people.
Uh, try to have this influencethrough podcasts like yours to
get people thinking.
Um but you know, I I I saythis.
This is still without a doubt,I believe, the greatest job in
America.
If we don't support the men andwomen who are out here doing
it, if we don't defend them,we're hit we're gonna have
nobody left to do it.
(32:00):
We saw what happened when youdefund and you, you know, you do
away with these departments andyou start down that road, you
have complete anarchy.
Um, you know, I I believe inwhat's called the thin blue
line.
I don't believe in thepolitical part of the thin blue
line.
I think the thin blue line iswhat separates good from bad.
Uh, and from those that want tocommit evil, it's sitting with
(32:20):
your back not to the door.
So you can spot that evil,quite honestly.
And uh, you know, I I think wehave to we have to stick up for
this profession or nobody'sgonna want to do it, and then
we're gonna be in a world ofhurt.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, I for sure.
And I think, as you said,trying to educate um folks like
myself and um folks who are notin the profession to understand
what what a police officer dealswith so that when they get
pulled over, they will comply.
Um, because you know the umthat's that is as you said, the
that uh if they if someone doesnot comply with instructions,
(32:54):
then the use of forcedprogression begins, and it's an
escalation clock of which thethe officer is to defend himself
and her and herself or andaround this and the folks around
them, they're they're forcedto.
Speaker (33:10):
Well, you talk about traffic stops, and and just real
quick, if if I may, you know,uh we I have a saying that is
that is this I want officers tobe prepared, not paranoid.
Right?
I need you out here prepared,but not paranoid to where you
can't do the job.
Having said that, we deal withthe unknown, and we do not know
(33:35):
who we're pulling over, we don'tknow who's gonna answer the
door at that domestic, we don'tknow who's gonna be at that
business on the alarm drop.
You know, bad guys, that's airquotes, don't wear shirts that
say, hey, I'm a bad guy.
We don't know.
So when someone's pulled over,it's it for them, for the
violator, it might be their onlyinteraction with law
(33:56):
enforcement.
For us, you might be the 12thcar we've pulled over that
shift.
So we try to remind ourofficers, hey, treat everybody
as it's if it's the first caryou stop, it's the first time
they've ever had any interactionwith the police.
Understand that they may not,they don't know what we want
them to know in all cases,right?
Like in our world, we pull youover, you keep your hands
(34:17):
visible, you don't reach foranything, you wait till we get
up there.
If it's nighttime, you turnyour dome lights on, roll your
windows down, that puts us atease, you know, but not
everybody's gonna do that, noteverybody's required to do that.
So if we don't see thatcompliance, right, we're gonna
we're gonna be probably a littlemore cautious until we get to
(34:38):
kind of we get to kind of um youknow feel you out, evalue or
observe you and and and get anidea of who we're dealing with.
If if it starts off in anegative tone, or if it starts
off adversarial, it's very hardfor anybody then to just flip a
switch and calm down.
You know, so I think we havemade some strides in that area
(35:01):
with with with uh you knowcommunity outreach and trying to
you know remind folks what todo when they get pulled over.
But you know, we don't knowwho's in that car, who's at that
house, who's at that business.
We don't know what you know youto you, you know, you're an
upstanding guy, you know, youyou support law enforcement.
I stop you tonight driving downthe street.
(35:22):
Yeah, I don't know who you are.
You know who you are, but Idon't.
So sometimes just rememberingthat.
And you know, law enforcementofficers are human.
We're we're human, we're gonnamake mistakes, we're gonna say
things that might not alwaysmake sense, but um, for the most
part, we do a really, really,really good job.
I'm proud of that.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Oh, I I well, you're you're preaching to the choir,
so to speak.
Um, you know, it's um I I tryto uh you know I try to uh
articulate on these podcaststhat uh police officers are
brothers, sisters, um, mothers,fathers, sons, daughters, um,
they have bad days, um, and theyhave good days.
(36:02):
And, you know, um if you'veever had a boss, you know, who
had a fight with his wife, youknow, that's gonna be a tough
day for you.
You know, imagine if you're apolice officer and then you have
to go up and and deal withsomeone who's um who's not
particularly respectful.
It's not a and and to yourpoint, you you know, it's the
highest level of professionalismbecause you have to you have to
(36:24):
kind of troll yourself, youhave to um kind of get through
it and not not let your youremotions get the best of you.
Um it so it is it is the uh oneof the it is the one of the if
not the toughest professions.
Um unfortunately, um um I I'muh I only have one last question
because I'd love to sit in onthis thing for another hour and
(36:44):
just keep chatting.
Um but the last question foryou, uh Chief Hughes, is um it's
really a thank you.
Thank you for for joining us,sharing your perspectives and um
uh we try to make a smalldonation, Pepper Ball does, to
um the charity of your choice.
What uh what charity can wemake a donation to in your name?
Speaker (37:04):
Bob, I am honored uh to sit on the board of directors
for the National Law EnforcementOfficers Hall of Fame.
Uh the National Law EnforcementOfficers Hall of Fame is
designed to do exactly what thetitle suggests, and that is
recognize officers across thiscountry who have gone above and
beyond in the line of duty, aswell as recommending, excuse me,
(37:25):
recognizing some of those whoare no longer with us.
So uh my charity of choicewould would undoubtedly be the
National Law Enforcement OfficerHall of Fame.
Um the induction ceremony iscoming up in April in Fort
Worth, Texas, and uh we would behonored to have your listeners
um support that organization,come to the induction ceremony,
(37:46):
partake in anywhere they can.
That'd mean a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Oh, that's that's great.
That's a great um, it's a greatvenue for uh and for our um uh
a way to say thank you.
Um well folks, um, you know, umthis has been a just a um a
really um uh educational, Ithink is the right word for it.
Um I what I really appreciatedabout Chief Hughes is that he he
(38:11):
speaks plainly.
Um and you know, um, you know,you talk about the only um
good-looking use of force or youknow, a uh normal use of force
is one that's inside a trainingfacility.
Every time you see a body cam,um you're gonna see a messy
situation because it is messy,and it's messy because you're
(38:32):
putting officers out in umharm's way who have to make
split-second decisions about howto engage with typically what
you see in body cams isunfortunately you typically see
people who are not um lettingthe officer do what he's he or
she is designed or is instructedto do, and that is to gain
control of a situation andabsence of control or
(38:55):
compliance, um, those messythings happen.
And and you know, what welearned today is this, you know,
the the use of force isescalation, but it's escalation
based off what the subject does,frankly, not necessarily and
typically not what the officerdoes.
And the other thing that uh Ithink we learned was I loved his
analogy of uh a professionalteam.
(39:17):
You have a, if you think abouta professional player who only
has to catch fly balls andground balls, you've got who
gets thousands of hours oftraining.
You have officers who gethundreds of hours of training
who have to deal with thousandsof different situations.
Imagine it would be like athousand different pitches
coming your way that you mayonly see once um in your career.
(39:37):
Um, no way to really preparefor that.
And and to some degree, I thinkwe just have to have uh, as I
always say, a lot of empathy umfor what these officers go
through when they put theirlives on the line and their
their their lives and and bydefinition their families at
risk.
So um wrapping up, um again,you've been listening um and
(39:59):
hopefully enjoyed listening tome.
Um uh my name is Bob Plaschke,um, and this is First Response.
It is a podcast dedicated tounderstanding the stories behind
the people that wear a badge,who um the very brave first
responders, more than a millionout there in the United States.
Um, and um I am very umprivileged um that this is
(40:23):
sponsored by PepperBall, thecompany that I have the honor to
be the CEO of.
And again, PepperBall, you wedeploy non-lethal tools that
allow police officers to um uhdo their jobs um but not have to
use our guns and um and and nothave to suffer uh and keep
themselves and uh and the andthe public that they serve safe.
(40:45):
Uh until next time, appreciateit and uh and be safe out there.
The front line of policing is loud, but the voices
behind it, you know, they're alot louder and I think, frankly,
a lot more interesting.
Hi, I'm Bob Plaschke, and thisis First Response.
This is the uh number onepodcast that takes you behind
the badge and uncovers realstories and experiences of first
responders from all walks oflife and the topics that shape
(00:25):
public safety today.
If you're curious about the guyor the gal behind the hero, and
they are indeed truly heroes,and the topics that they care
about, take a listen.
This is kind of your front rowseat to hearing some of the
really interesting voices outthere and more importantly the
heroes.
This podcast is sponsored byPepperBall, where I have the
honor to serve as CEO.
(00:47):
PepperBall creates unlethalalternatives to guns at least
used to keep themselves and thepublic safe.
So today, super excited, uh,joined uh by uh Chief Scott
Hughes, the chief of police ofthe Hamilton Township in Warren
(01:09):
County, Ohio.
It's just north of Cincinnati.
Uh and being born and raised inLouisville, Kentucky.
Cincinnati was always the rivaluh city.
It was always the big city,actually, when we were in
Louisville.
So it's fun to talk to someoneclose to where I grew up.
Uh uh Chief um has been thechief there since 2016.
(01:29):
He's got a decades-long andwonderful experience in policing
and spends a lot of his time,his off time on the road doing
um consulting, helping otheragencies across the country
really um um understand thechallenges that they're facing,
whether it be leadership ortraining, and help them kind of
(01:53):
come to the the uh thesolutions that they can uh
control and enact in their ownlocal agencies.
Chief Hughes is a graduate ofthe FBI National Academy, um,
which is a very prestigious partof the training that uh a
select set of chiefs get to gothrough, and um uh has a number
of degrees in topics that arerelating to public safety and
(02:17):
policing.
So, Chief, you know, when wewere talking before, you
mentioned you like to tell orlike to help the folks um that
don't have a lot of experiencein policing kind of understand
why police officers do what theydo.
Here's my first question.
When I take a police uh officerout to lunch um or to a
(02:41):
meeting, they always want tohave the chair that has their
chair backs to the back of theof the restaurant.
So why do they do that?
Why do they do that?
Speaker (02:54):
Well, well, first of all, Bob, thanks for having me
on your program.
It's an honor to be here.
Yeah, that is a that is aclassic, you can always tell
when you walk into therestaurant who the cops are
because they always have their,they don't have their back to
the door.
You know, we are brought up inan environment where situational
awareness is critical.
We want to be that first lineof defense, and we are in this
(03:16):
constant state of what I'm gonnacall hypervigilance, where we
are always on the lookout forthreats, and we never want to be
caught off guard.
So anytime you're you're gonnasee us in a public place, you
can expect somebody in thatgroup's job is to watch the door
and watch the surroundings.
Uh, in fact, uh when I firststarted dating my wife, it drove
(03:38):
her nuts.
Now, now her and our twochildren, they just know don't
even try to sit in that chair orin that booth where your father
can't see the door.
And if if we're really feelingparanoid, we're gonna ask to be
seated close to an exit.
(03:59):
So in case we have to make aquick escape, we have uh we have
a direct route.
So yeah, it just comes from itjust comes from the training and
the in the uh experiences thatyou know you never want to get
you never want to get caught offguard.
We are protectors, we want toprotect everyone.
Well, we can't protect them ifwe don't have the upper hand.
So that is that is a classiclaw enforcement um uh uh thing.
(04:25):
That's an official that's yeah,that's an official cop term
thing, is uh you don't sit withyour back to the door.
So next time you go out and yousee three or four police
officers in uniform and they'reforced to sit at a round table,
uh probably rank or paper rockscissors picked who has to sit
with their back to the door.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, I appreciate that.
It's um um when I first startedto um um uh serve or you know,
uh sell to and um and meet withpolice officers, the first
couple of times I would um Iwould take the the the seat
furthest away to out of courtesycould it make them have not
have to walk as far.
And uh the first couple ofdinners, these poor police
(05:10):
chiefs sitting there and andthey were just noticeably
uncomfortable.
And finally, I think it was mysecond or third time.
One of my um advisors who was aformer police chief, um Chris
Moore from San Jose, he pulledme aside and he said, he said,
you know, could you be any morerude?
Rude?
(05:31):
What he goes, he goes, youknow, these you know, police
officers to your point, theythey need you know that they're
they're constantly vigilant andthey and and so you're making
them uncomfortable.
So why don't you be berespectful and give them the
chair?
Speaker (05:44):
It's that or that or you gotta carry the gun.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's exactly right.
It's like one or the other.
Yeah.
Um, you know, um and uh out ofcuriosity, does that follow you
to, you know, um, when you'reout watching a baseball game,
when you're out, I mean, I youknow, I and I this is something
I always have deep uh sympathyfor.
I can't say empathy because I'mnot a police officer, but
(06:09):
sympathy in the sense to are youwhen you're in public, I guess
you're always hyper-vigilant,even when you're on your free
time.
Speaker (06:15):
You know, you you really are.
And you know, uh, you know, youjust unfortunately with what
goes on in society today, youknow, we um like I said before,
we we have to stay thathyper-vigilant because we want
to we want to be able to detectthese threats.
And uh, you know, that's alsothere's also another side of
that argument, and that is thatthat constant state of
(06:35):
hypervigilance.
And there's a lot of expertsout there that that get way more
uh educated and smarter than meon this on this topic.
So I'll just I'll give youenough to sound like I know what
I'm talking about, and that isthat this this constant state of
hypervigilance uh actually canbe unhealthy for you.
And what I mean by that is theadded stress, you know, what
(06:56):
that stress does to yourcortisol and and and just just
you know your heart, justeverything, right?
I mean, there's a there's a tonof folks that need to come on
here and they can explain whatall that actually does to you
internally, but it does addstress because you never really
get to relax, right?
Like you never get to just calmdown.
I mean, even on a quote unquotevacation, you know, you're on a
(07:17):
beach with people, you'rescanning around, you're looking.
You never really get to letyour guard down.
And, you know, that's just kindof I don't want to say it comes
with the job, but it kind ofjust comes with the job.
I mean, uh I think it like itcomes with a job.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
I mean, I think, you know, um, and it's it's unique
to police officers, there'scorrection um officers who I
think to some degree um cancontain that because theirs is
based on a facility.
Um, and firefighters don't havethat same issue.
They don't actually, they don'treally feel that kind of stress
because for them, absent of a afire or a health issue, they
(07:55):
aren't really looking for it.
They're more reactive.
I, you know, and I think Idon't for for me, I've just
become super appreciative.
It's one of the few in umprofessions that I can think of
that has that that constantstress, even you know, kind of
on the job, off the job, onvacation, you know, traveling.
You're that's it, it comes withthe job, but that's a it's a
(08:18):
it's a huge sacrifice, aphysical and mental sacrifice
that officers make when they umwhen they when they swear uh an
oath to the badge.
Speaker (08:27):
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely correct.
And there's been a lot ofcases.
When I say a lot, I can'tquantify that number, but
there's there there's there'sbeen there's been cases in the
news over the last several yearswhere you know good Samaritans
in the right spot have haveended threats or you know have
have been phenomenal witnessesthat have led to the arrest or
you know, apprehension of folks.
(08:47):
And you know, it's not justreally police officers.
We need everyone to kind ofremain vigilant, right?
You know, especially withwhat's going on in the world
today.
And, you know, right or wrong,there's people out there that
don't like us.
You never know where you'regonna be and you know what what
might occur.
So to some degree, you wanteveryone to remain vigilant.
What we what law enforcementofficers do is I guess we're
(09:08):
just a little more extravigilant when we're around those
that may not be as vigilant.
How's that?
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Well, and and again, I just think it's um, you know,
it's it's it's a simplequestion, but it leads to a
bunch of um of outcomes um thatyou don't think about, which is
the stress that police officersum sit under.
Um the um, you know, the one ofthe topics, um, there'll be two
things we'll talk about today.
Um, one is the the work you doin terms of helping people
(09:36):
understand use of force and whenyou used it and when you can
avoid it and how how to thinkabout that.
Um but the other topic, it's uhyou just was one of a blog that
you recently wrote and talkedabout um we call um um policing
a profession, which itdefinitely is, but we don't
treat it like a you know, Ithink you use the reference like
(09:58):
a major league uh profession,right?
Where you know those thoseathletes have the trainers, the
mental health, the physical, theevery all the tools they need.
And when you in a policingcontext, when you have people
that are literally hold life anddeath in their hands every day,
they don't get that same levelof training.
Um so on on that topic, let mejust open the floor to you.
(10:21):
You know, what what is thestate of policing today in terms
of getting the right level oftraining?
Is it going in the rightdirection, the wrong direction?
What needs to happen?
Speaker (10:32):
I think I think that's a very loaded question.
I'm gonna sound like I'mtalking out both sides of my
mouth.
So I hope your your viewerswill will understand this.
That's a very complex question.
Um, let me start off by sayingthis.
Here in my state of Ohio, to bea police officer, it takes
approximately 740-ish hours tocomplete the police academy,
(10:55):
right?
740, 750, somewhere in thatrange.
For for sake of just argument,we're gonna say less than 800.
That's that's fair.
It takes 1,800 hours in mystate to be a barber, and it
takes 1,500 hours in my state tobe a cosmetologist.
That is nothing, uh, I'm notI'm not downplaying what it
(11:18):
takes to be a barber orcosmetologist, um, because I've
never I've never done that job.
What I have done since themid-90s is law enforcement, and
I can tell you that thesituations that we are thrusted
into and decisions that we areexpected to make, there's no
room for error.
And in law enforcement, we'veseen this around the country
(11:38):
where officers are are are arevilified, criminally charged,
etc., for quote unquote makingan error when we're not giving
them the types of training tonot make those errors.
To your point about that blogpost that I wrote, my comparison
to the Major League Baseball uhteam is this I've heard that
(11:58):
the an average Major LeagueBaseball player shows up to a
baseball stadium uh six to eighthours before the game starts.
And in that time frame, they'lldo everything from have a meal
to work with the physicaltrainer, you know, getting
stretched, getting loose.
They will do fundamentalexercises to include batting
practice, uh, ground balls,they'll do fielding exercises,
(12:23):
they watch film, they'll stretchagain, six to eight hours
before the game starts.
And the reason they do that isbecause these individuals have
one job, and that job is to goout there on that field and do
the best job that they can do.
Major League Baseball playersare conditioned to never make an
error.
That's why, when a routine flyball gets dropped in the
(12:47):
outfield, that's why everysports channel is replaying it
over and over and over againbecause that baseball player is
trained to never let thathappen.
We give our officers minimal,minimal ongoing training to to
(13:07):
uh on fundamentals, right?
We give them very minimal,minimal.
So then we we we give themthings like um watch this video
online, watch this webinar, andthat's just check the box
training.
We don't give them stressinoculation where we're making
it like second nature, if youwill, right?
A baseball player, you you youyou can see this analogy, right,
(13:30):
Bob?
Like baseball player, fly balloff the bat, he he knows where
he reads it off the bat, heknows where to go.
It's just another catch, right?
We're not conditioned in lawenforcement to that same to that
same standard.
So I compare, you want us to beMajor League Baseball players,
never make an error in lawenforcement, but you give us
T-ball training.
My my 12-year-old does the doesfundamentals 45 minutes to an
(13:56):
hour and a half before every oneof his baseball games at 12
years old.
The average police officershows up, you know, 15, 20
minutes before his shift starts,goes into roll call, gets
briefing, and then he has to goout and start answering calls,
right?
Yep.
And and he and he and he andhe's and he and he's not so the
so so now your listeners arelike, well, what's the answer?
What's the answer?
What's the answer?
Well, I think I think that'sthe loaded question, and that's
(14:17):
where it gets very, verycomplicated because I think it
comes from several differentsources.
The the the first one, theelephant in the room is
somebody's got to pay for it.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yep.
Speaker (14:27):
Uh somebody's got to pay for the funding to to pull
officers from the streets,backfill it with with with
overtime, so that the officerscan get that kind of training,
right?
That's the first thing.
The second thing is I think theprofession as a whole is not
designed to give us the kind oftraining we need.
Now, when I say the kind oftraining we need, I mean
(14:48):
instinctive responses where copsdon't have to think about it.
Well, the only way you can dothat is constant, ongoing,
daily, right?
Daily type of training.
Again, back to my baseballanalogy, other than the four or
six teams that are still left inthe majors right now in this
season, all the other baseballplayers, they're back at their
homes doing what they do intheir offseason.
(15:09):
But I guarantee you this everyday they're doing something
baseball related to stay readyfor the for the upcoming season.
We don't do that in lawenforcement, right?
So so that's kind of the miss.
But then again, when an officergoes out here and he makes a
traffic stop at two o'clock inthe morning, it's pitch black,
and he engages in a in a footpursuit, and the suspect turns
(15:30):
around and points something athim like that real fast, and he
pulls his gun, he doesn'trealize, is that a gun or was
that the cover to the camera?
Like, you know, right, and theymake those split second
decisions.
So a long-winded answer or along-winded statement, I guess,
to your question, with probablyno answer, other than law
(15:54):
enforcement is notorious,notorious, absolutely notorious
for whatever whatever the thebig pressing issue is.
That's what we're gonna, we'regonna we're gonna start training
in that, right?
So, you know, a couple yearsago, it was all about
de-escalation, de-escalation,yeah.
We've been de-escalating beforethe word de-escalation ever
came into play, right?
(16:14):
It's just communication.
All de-escalation, all that isis communication.
And and and there's and there'sa group of people who think
that de-escalation is thismagical say this, don't say
that.
Like use this phrase, and thiswill always de-escalate people.
And that's not reality.
You're dealing with individualswho are under the influence of
alcohol, drugs, suffering frommental illness, a combination of
(16:36):
all three.
You can be the nicest personyou can, and they're not gonna
be de-escalated.
So, somewhere along the way,there was a group of folks that
felt like, well, officers shouldde-escalate every situation.
We have police departmentsputting words in policies like
officers must de-escalate.
Well, that's not fair to thecops.
They must de-escalate, butwe're only gonna give you uh 20
(17:00):
hours of training for the entireyear, and that's gonna be on
everything but de-escalation.
If we do give you de-escalationtraining, you're gonna watch a
webinar, check a box, and sayyou were trained, but that's not
gonna be the realities of thestreet.
So I digress.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
No, no, no.
I mean, I mean, I think you'rejust articulating um you had
said on earlier before westarted, you said it's the uh uh
same crap, different badge isthat every off every same crap,
different same crap, differentpatch.
Speaker (17:30):
Yeah.
Different patch.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Sorry, different patch, yeah.
Um, and which means that, youknow, and I and I because I hear
the same theme across thecountry as I visit police chiefs
in my work.
Um, and one um I I can onlythink of uh maybe uh the vast
majority of the agencies I visitare understaffed, and they've
(17:52):
been understaffed since COVIDand since George Floyd.
Um the under beingunderstaffed, and you know, and
and and that is with the 700hours or seven, eight hundred
hours of of uh training.
Um they have to, you know, theyhave to get people through the
academies and get them throughand get them trained.
So they're they've got theirexisting staff is facing lots of
(18:13):
overtime, which is additionalstress, where they before used
to have the old, you know, inthe you think about what you see
on TV where you have the oldgrizzled veteran sitting shotgun
with the the new guy, thatdoesn't happen.
Um these new guys are on theirown.
And you got kids training kids.
Kids training kids.
And you have um, and then Ithink the range of of issues
(18:35):
that police face now versus 20years ago is you know almost 2x
in terms of mental illness,mental, uh mental challenges,
societal challenges, the thetype of protests, the and the
and finally not to add it, youknow, kind of uh fire, you know,
kind of sell past the close,but you have a uh you have a
(18:58):
unfortunately you have a groupof citizens who are
unfortunately trust has dropped.
I think trust in public safetyhas dropped and police officers
drop below 50% for the firsttime ever, where the majority of
people do not trust, do nothave a sense of full trust in
the police officer, which makesthe job even harder.
Speaker (19:17):
Yeah, well, the the other thing we have is is we we
should, we as a profession, lawenforcement, law enforcement
should not be going to some ofthe calls that we are sent to.
We should not be the, well, Idon't know who else to call, so
I just called 911, and you know,well, we have to go.
Like we that is a that is a uhanother area in this profession
(19:40):
that that needs to be addressed.
The issue is nobody knowswhat's the answer, right?
Like, am I going to be liableif I don't go and something
happens?
Uh what if, you know, if if ifhere's an example.
If there's a guy or a gal intheir house by themselves and
they've called 911 and said, Iam suicidal.
(20:00):
Sir, is there anyone elseanyone else in the house with
you?
No, I'm by myself.
Okay, if the officers canverify there's no one else in
that house, it is a suicidalthreat, not a homicidal threat.
What's law enforcement supposedto do?
Right?
And if because here's what'sgonna happen.
If we go to that call, it'sgonna turn into a barricaded
(20:21):
situation.
We're gonna notify the SWATteam, SWAT's gonna come out.
Some SWAT teams are gonna dowhat's called a surrounding call
out.
They're gonna surround thehouse, they're not gonna go in,
they're gonna yell in thebullhorn for hours.
They're gonna fire tear gas,pepper balls into the house and
try to get the individual tocome out.
If they don't come out, we'regonna send a robot in.
If the robot doesn't find them,eventually we're gonna send
(20:42):
police officers in, and thenthey're gonna find them, and now
the officers are gonna have tobe forced to use deadly threat
because the guy or gal is gonnacharge at them with a knife.
Then that family, the estate,is gonna sue law enforcement,
and they're gonna say we causedhis death, or what the whatever
the case might be, or worse, acop's gonna get hurt or killed.
Correct.
(21:02):
Why are we even there?
So we have to stop using lawenforcement as this last resort
and forcing these guys with 740hours.
We are not mental healthexperts.
We are not trained to go tothese homes and talk about
(21:23):
feelings and beliefs and thiskind of stuff.
We're cops, and that's a that'spart of that whole big problem.
So I will digress again.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
No, no, but I I think it's it's reality and it's what
it's you know, and I we hear itagain and again on this podcast
is um um police chiefs comingin and and and just articulating
the challenges.
Um to you to your pointpreviously, we've the the the
industry's made great strides inservicing the issues around
mental health and putting mentalhealth training and and and
(21:57):
kind of a buddy system as bestone can do, and having mental
health professionals availablefor police officers.
So that's been a I think animprovement in the
acknowledgement that thosemental health issues are there.
I think I've seen uh um uh thefocus on your personal health
and the uh the facilities andthe training so you can get the
(22:18):
the the the physical trainingthat you need and the and the
frankly the the kind of the away to to burn off a lot of the
stress through physicalexercise.
I've seen improvements there.
I think the the but they're uhto some degree they're band-aids
to a much larger challenge,which is as you've described, a
(22:38):
set of sits a set ofcircumstances that um officers
shouldn't are not trained todeal with.
They have to because they'rethe only people that answer 911,
but you you don't want them todo it.
Um turning our attention, um,at least I'd like to turn and
talk about this notion of use offorce.
Um I try to explain to myfriends, and I say, look, the uh
(22:59):
police officers have beentrained in a in a and the
majority of their training talksabout how to de-escalate a
situation, how to communicate,and how to only, if necessary,
um increase the use of force togain control of the situation.
And I and I try to talk aboutit in the sense of that their
(23:22):
focus is to gain control of thesituation, you know, and it may
or may not lead to an arrest,but it's get control so that the
safety of the officer, thesafety of the subject you're
dealing with, and the peoplearound them, you you know, you
you focus on that first.
But with that as a context, canyou describe when when you hear
the word use of force andincreasing use of force, what
(23:43):
does that mean?
How do how should we as a as anon-officer think about that?
Speaker (23:47):
Every use of force begins because of three words
that the individual uh causes.
Well, let me let me say thatagain.
Individuals cause officers touse force because of because of
three words failure to comply.
Every use of force would bepreventable if individuals
(24:09):
complied.
Right?
So let's let's just say thatright now, right?
Uh all the cases that you'veseen around this country,
whether they're you know, uh nomatter what they are, it started
with an individual did notcomply.
So it's we gotta put some ofthe responsibility back on the
(24:30):
individuals who are putting ourofficers in these positions,
okay?
The use of force by law has tobe what's called objectively
reasonable, right?
So, you know, again, this is amuch, much, much more longer,
in-depth, you know,conversation, and there's a lot
of folks out there that are thatare that are that are way
smarter than me.
(24:50):
Um, but in in essence, everyforce that we have to use, we we
want to try to accomplish anarrest using the least amount of
force as possible.
Now, that doesn't mean it'salways going to work, right?
Every there there there's athere's a uh portion, if you
will, of population who, becauseof TV, movies, their own
(25:12):
self-belief, they think thatevery every time you use any
type of less than lethal weapon,whether it's a taser, a
pepperball, an asputon, um,other technology, it's out
there, that well, that willalways work.
And you know, you know, you'rethe CEO of the comp of
pepperball, you know, hey,that's not always the case,
right?
We know that there's a highpercentage of cases that do
(25:35):
resolve themselves, but notevery one of them.
So for a police officer, if myintent is I'm gonna go with this
less lethal option, if itdoesn't work, there's only most
likely one other option then ifthe less lethal option doesn't
work, right?
Nowhere does it say that apolice officer has to get
(25:55):
injured, hurt, or certainlykilled to defend themselves or
someone else.
And you know, this does notsound sexy or politically
correct to some, but the onlyway to overcome violence is more
superior violence, right?
I mean, again, that doesn'tsound like that's not friendly,
(26:15):
but that's the reality.
I mean, if if someone'spunching you and punching you
and punching you and fighting,fighting, you have to be a
better fighter to win.
Using force is no different.
The issue for law enforcementis we we're not street fighters,
right?
So, I mean, we're not just outthere just throwing haymakers,
just you know, going.
We we do try to follow somesome sort of a system or some
(26:37):
sort of a of a policy, but youcan have all the policies and
procedures in the world.
And the reality is this use offorce is ugly.
I have a friend of mine whooften says the only place the
use of force looks good is inthe mat room.
The mat room is where cops aretrained on the mats, right?
That's the only place thatlooks good.
On the street, it never looksgood.
(26:57):
There's so many variables thatyou're concerned about on the
side of the road.
And and until you stood next toa car and you're trying to put
someone's hands behind theirback who don't want their hands
behind their back, or untilyou've you've tried to break up
a fight where people arescreaming and they're jumping in
and they don't want to beseparated, until you've been in
that position, it's hard foranyone to truly understand what
(27:20):
it's like.
It's kind of like back to mybaseball analogy, it's kind of
like me sitting on the couch acouple weeks ago watching my
favorite baseball team yelling,swing the bat.
You don't you don't know what a104 mile an hour forcing
fastball looks like coming outof someone's hand.
(27:40):
And then the next pitch is an80 mile an hour change.
Like, who am I?
Like, you don't know whatthat's like to stand there.
And I and again, I'm not I'm afirm believer in this.
And this, you know, some arejust gonna not believe me at
all, and some might actuallyturn off the podcast after I say
this, but I'm a firm believerthat the that most police
(28:00):
officers, the overwhelmingmajority of them, get in this
profession for the right reasonsand come out here every single
day and they do the right thingfor the right reasons.
I believe we do a really goodjob of holding those who need to
be held accountableaccountable.
I also think we do a bad jobsometimes at explaining why cops
do what they do, which is whywhen you reached out to me, yes,
(28:21):
sign me up, let me get on.
As I told you before, we werecorded, the more folks that I
can talk to who will listen tomy me, um uh uh my dumb brain
here, the more the better,right?
The more folks that I canhopefully help educate,
especially non-law enforcementfolks.
Um, you know, I do this when Itravel the country speaking and
and and whatnot, I I always dothis analogy.
(28:43):
I always ask, or I'm notanalogy, I always do this
exercise, Bob.
And that exercise is this.
I always ask those in the roomto point their fingers at me
like they have a gun in theirhand.
Okay, so I'll get the wholeroom to point their finger at
me.
And then I take my gun and Ipoint it at my own head, and I
and I tell the audience this I'mgonna say the alphabet from the
(29:06):
letter A to the letter D as indonkey.
When I get to D as in Donkey,I'm taking this gun that's
currently pointed at my head,and I'm gonna point it at you.
All you have to do is yellbang.
That's it.
I'm gonna say the out, I'mgonna say the alpha the uh A B C
D just like you were taught inpreschool, there's no there's no
tricks, I promise.
(29:27):
So they all got their fingerspointed at me, they're all ready
to go.
And I go, A, B, C, D, and Ipoint my finger at them.
And every one of them is lateat yelling bang.
And I say to them, You did notbeat me.
You know, and I hear thingslike, Well, that was fast.
Well, yeah, that's lawenforcement, right?
(29:49):
Like you knew, you knew when Iwas gonna take this gun from my
own head and point it at you.
Now, can you imagine an officermakes a traffic stop and a guy
jumps out?
Of his car, and he's got hishand to his he's got a gun to
his head like this, and thepolice officer gets out of the
car and goes boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
He would be criticized to theend of the world.
(30:09):
Well, why'd you shoot him?
The gun was pointed at himself.
He wasn't a threat to you.
I just proved to you how quickI can do that.
An officer on the streetdoesn't know if I'm gonna take
the gun from my head and pointit at D as in donkey, Q as in
Queen, Z as in zebra, or A, hedoesn't know when he's gonna do
it.
And nowhere does it say that Ishould have to wait and see what
(30:31):
he's gonna do before I decideto use force or defend myself or
someone else.
So that same friend that tellsme the use of force only looks
good on the mat also says thatlaw enforcement's the hardest
job in America.
And I yeah, I I I agree.
It's the hardest job inAmerica, and as a profession,
we've got so much work to dowith how we're training, and
(30:55):
it's it's it's a much deeper uhissue than you know just money
and and it it's how we're it'sit's scheduling, it it's just
it's it's everything, you know.
When you you said it a coupletimes, you know, law enforcement
training.
I don't know if we're trainedor if we've we've gathered
information, right?
Like to be trained to whereit's second nature, we're back
(31:17):
to that whole major leaguebaseball player analogy or any
sport for that matter.
So, you know, we are makingprogress.
We got a lot of work to do.
Uh, I feel like sometimes wejust kick the can down the road.
I think there's some chiefs andsome executives who just hope
it doesn't happen here, and uh,that's probably the wrong
mindset to have.
Uh that's not my style.
(31:38):
You know, I'm gonna do what Ican at my department and worry
about my people.
Uh, try to have this influencethrough podcasts like yours to
get people thinking.
Um but you know, I I I saythis.
This is still without a doubt,I believe, the greatest job in
America.
If we don't support the men andwomen who are out here doing
it, if we don't defend them,we're hit we're gonna have
nobody left to do it.
(32:00):
We saw what happened when youdefund and you, you know, you do
away with these departments andyou start down that road, you
have complete anarchy.
Um, you know, I I believe inwhat's called the thin blue
line.
I don't believe in thepolitical part of the thin blue
line.
I think the thin blue line iswhat separates good from bad.
Uh, and from those that want tocommit evil, it's sitting with
(32:20):
your back not to the door.
So you can spot that evil,quite honestly.
And uh, you know, I I think wehave to we have to stick up for
this profession or nobody'sgonna want to do it, and then
we're gonna be in a world ofhurt.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Oh, I for sure.
And I think, as you said,trying to educate um folks like
myself and um folks who are notin the profession to understand
what what a police officer dealswith so that when they get
pulled over, they will comply.
Um, because you know the umthat's that is as you said, the
that uh if they if someone doesnot comply with instructions,
(32:54):
then the use of forcedprogression begins, and it's an
escalation clock of which thethe officer is to defend himself
and her and herself or andaround this and the folks around
them, they're they're forcedto.
Speaker (33:10):
Well, you talk about traffic stops, and and just real
quick, if if I may, you know,uh we I have a saying that is
that is this I want officers tobe prepared, not paranoid.
Right?
I need you out here prepared,but not paranoid to where you
can't do the job.
Having said that, we deal withthe unknown, and we do not know
(33:35):
who we're pulling over, we don'tknow who's gonna answer the
door at that domestic, we don'tknow who's gonna be at that
business on the alarm drop.
You know, bad guys, that's airquotes, don't wear shirts that
say, hey, I'm a bad guy.
We don't know.
So when someone's pulled over,it's it for them, for the
violator, it might be their onlyinteraction with law
(33:56):
enforcement.
For us, you might be the 12thcar we've pulled over that
shift.
So we try to remind ourofficers, hey, treat everybody
as it's if it's the first caryou stop, it's the first time
they've ever had any interactionwith the police.
Understand that they may not,they don't know what we want
them to know in all cases,right?
Like in our world, we pull youover, you keep your hands
(34:17):
visible, you don't reach foranything, you wait till we get
up there.
If it's nighttime, you turnyour dome lights on, roll your
windows down, that puts us atease, you know, but not
everybody's gonna do that, noteverybody's required to do that.
So if we don't see thatcompliance, right, we're gonna
we're gonna be probably a littlemore cautious until we get to
(34:38):
kind of we get to kind of um youknow feel you out, evalue or
observe you and and and get anidea of who we're dealing with.
If if it starts off in anegative tone, or if it starts
off adversarial, it's very hardfor anybody then to just flip a
switch and calm down.
You know, so I think we havemade some strides in that area
(35:01):
with with with uh you knowcommunity outreach and trying to
you know remind folks what todo when they get pulled over.
But you know, we don't knowwho's in that car, who's at that
house, who's at that business.
We don't know what you know youto you, you know, you're an
upstanding guy, you know, youyou support law enforcement.
I stop you tonight driving downthe street.
(35:22):
Yeah, I don't know who you are.
You know who you are, but Idon't.
So sometimes just rememberingthat.
And you know, law enforcementofficers are human.
We're we're human, we're gonnamake mistakes, we're gonna say
things that might not alwaysmake sense, but um, for the most
part, we do a really, really,really good job.
I'm proud of that.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Oh, I I well, you're you're preaching to the choir,
so to speak.
Um, you know, it's um I I tryto uh you know I try to uh
articulate on these podcaststhat uh police officers are
brothers, sisters, um, mothers,fathers, sons, daughters, um,
they have bad days, um, and theyhave good days.
(36:02):
And, you know, um if you'veever had a boss, you know, who
had a fight with his wife, youknow, that's gonna be a tough
day for you.
You know, imagine if you're apolice officer and then you have
to go up and and deal withsomeone who's um who's not
particularly respectful.
It's not a and and to yourpoint, you you know, it's the
highest level of professionalismbecause you have to you have to
(36:24):
kind of troll yourself, youhave to um kind of get through
it and not not let your youremotions get the best of you.
Um it so it is it is the uh oneof the it is the one of the if
not the toughest professions.
Um unfortunately, um um I I'muh I only have one last question
because I'd love to sit in onthis thing for another hour and
(36:44):
just keep chatting.
Um but the last question foryou, uh Chief Hughes, is um it's
really a thank you.
Thank you for for joining us,sharing your perspectives and um
uh we try to make a smalldonation, Pepper Ball does, to
um the charity of your choice.
What uh what charity can wemake a donation to in your name?
Speaker (37:04):
Bob, I am honored uh to sit on the board of directors
for the National Law EnforcementOfficers Hall of Fame.
Uh the National Law EnforcementOfficers Hall of Fame is
designed to do exactly what thetitle suggests, and that is
recognize officers across thiscountry who have gone above and
beyond in the line of duty, aswell as recommending, excuse me,
(37:25):
recognizing some of those whoare no longer with us.
So uh my charity of choicewould would undoubtedly be the
National Law Enforcement OfficerHall of Fame.
Um the induction ceremony iscoming up in April in Fort
Worth, Texas, and uh we would behonored to have your listeners
um support that organization,come to the induction ceremony,
(37:46):
partake in anywhere they can.
That'd mean a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Oh, that's that's great.
That's a great um, it's a greatvenue for uh and for our um uh
a way to say thank you.
Um well folks, um, you know, umthis has been a just a um a
really um uh educational, Ithink is the right word for it.
Um I what I really appreciatedabout Chief Hughes is that he he
(38:11):
speaks plainly.
Um and you know, um, you know,you talk about the only um
good-looking use of force or youknow, a uh normal use of force
is one that's inside a trainingfacility.
Every time you see a body cam,um you're gonna see a messy
situation because it is messy,and it's messy because you're
(38:32):
putting officers out in umharm's way who have to make
split-second decisions about howto engage with typically what
you see in body cams isunfortunately you typically see
people who are not um lettingthe officer do what he's he or
she is designed or is instructedto do, and that is to gain
control of a situation andabsence of control or
(38:55):
compliance, um, those messythings happen.
And and you know, what welearned today is this, you know,
the the use of force isescalation, but it's escalation
based off what the subject does,frankly, not necessarily and
typically not what the officerdoes.
And the other thing that uh Ithink we learned was I loved his
analogy of uh a professionalteam.
(39:17):
You have a, if you think abouta professional player who only
has to catch fly balls andground balls, you've got who
gets thousands of hours oftraining.
You have officers who gethundreds of hours of training
who have to deal with thousandsof different situations.
Imagine it would be like athousand different pitches
coming your way that you mayonly see once um in your career.
(39:37):
Um, no way to really preparefor that.
And and to some degree, I thinkwe just have to have uh, as I
always say, a lot of empathy umfor what these officers go
through when they put theirlives on the line and their
their their lives and and bydefinition their families at
risk.
So um wrapping up, um again,you've been listening um and
(39:59):
hopefully enjoyed listening tome.
Um uh my name is Bob Plaschke,um, and this is First Response.
It is a podcast dedicated tounderstanding the stories behind
the people that wear a badge,who um the very brave first
responders, more than a millionout there in the United States.
Um, and um I am very umprivileged um that this is
(40:23):
sponsored by PepperBall, thecompany that I have the honor to
be the CEO of.
And again, PepperBall, you wedeploy non-lethal tools that
allow police officers to um uhdo their jobs um but not have to
use our guns and um and and nothave to suffer uh and keep
themselves and uh and the andthe public that they serve safe.
(40:45):
Uh until next time, appreciateit and uh and be safe out there.
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