In this debut episode, PepperBall CEO Bob Plaschke speaks with former Air Force captain and Walnut Creek Police Sergeant (ret.) Michael Sugrue, author of Relentless Courage, a book that chronicles his personal battle with mental health challenges that peaked after he had to use lethal force. Sugrue talks about the invisible toll of daily trauma on first responders and explains why “post-traumatic stress injury” (PTSI) is a more accurate and constructive term than “disorder,” outlining how repeated exposure to crisis produces real, physical changes in the brain. He contrasts short, defined combat deployments with the relentless, years-long hyper-vigilance of civilian policing, then lays out practical leadership steps: honesty, openness, and vulnerability from command staff to normalize seeking help. The discussion closes with a direct appeal to public-safety leaders and community partners to support evidence-based wellness programs, peer resources, and tools that create time and distance for safer outcomes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Plaschke (00:01):
Good afternoon.
My name is Bob Plaschke.
I'm the CEO of PepperBall orpepperball.com.
We're the leading provider ofuh non-lethal tactical solutions
or capabilities that policeagencies around the U.S.
and around the world use tode-escalate situations.
Um for us, um, our mission isabout saving lives, and uh part
(00:25):
of that is to put tools in thehands of police officers who can
um engage folks at distance andhelp them kind of change their
behavior or gain compliance, getthem to do what they need them
to do without having to get tooclose to them having to kind of
um be forced to move to um lesslethal or unfortunately, in the
(00:46):
worst cases, uh lethalsolutions.
Um when we talk about savinglives, um, we also talk about
the um saving the lives of thepolice officers that are out
there every day protecting us.
Um, they themselves to use alethal weapon or even to see
what they see on the streets,it's a horrific mental
challenge.
Um, as I read in a BostonUniversity study, um, police
(01:10):
officers are 50% more likely tocommit suicide than um an
average citizen.
And more officers die fromsuicide than they die in the in
the line of uh duty.
Um and that untold story is isis the topic for our guest
today, Michael Sugrue, if I'vepronounced that correctly.
Um Michael, welcome.
(01:31):
Michael um is a uh, as he'lltell you, a former uh decorated
uh officer in the Air Force anduh police officer um and the
author of Relentless Courage,which is a study of his own
experiences.
He's a speaker that goes aroundthe country talking about
mental health and talking topolice uh officers, um, and is
(01:53):
our guest today.
Michael, thanks so much fortaking the time to talk to us.
Michael Sugrue (01:58):
Absolutely, it's my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Bob Plaschke (02:01):
Please just tell us um your background, your
story, um, kind of in whatyou're doing today.
Michael Sugrue (02:07):
It's a long story, so I'm gonna try to make
it as short as possible.
Um, I actually come from a lawenforcement family.
My stepfather, I consider myhero.
Uh, he's the one that raised mealong with my mother, but he
worked for the Sauce LittlePolice Department and then the
Richmond Police Department.
And I actually knew at the ageof eight years old that this was
my calling, this is what Iwanted to do.
(02:28):
Um I went off to college, got adegree in criminal justice, um,
full scholarship through theAir Force.
When I graduated in '98, I wentstraight into security forces,
which is basicallyanti-terrorism, force
protection, law enforcement,nuclear security, air base
ground defense.
I did that for six and a halfyears, served all over the
(02:49):
world, from the Middle East toEurope, South America, all over
the U.S.
Got out as a captain.
I was actually stationed backhere at Travis Air Force Base in
California.
And I went straight intocivilian law enforcement.
I was hired by the Walnut CreekPolice Department, went through
the academy, started inDecember of 2004 as a fully
(03:10):
sworn officer, worked a bunch ofdifferent assignments from
patrol officer, field trainingofficer, detective.
I was undercover two years on aCalifornia state drug task
force, promoted to sergeant, andwas also a public information
officer.
And my story today reallystarts as a brand new sergeant.
Actually, the day afterChristmas, I was involved in a
(03:34):
very traumatic incident.
Ended up being a fatalofficer-involved shooting.
And that was my tipping point.
Um, like most first responders,I never talked about the
horrific things that we see anddeal with on a daily basis.
I just bottled them up.
I kept it for my family,thought I was protecting them,
and really I isolated thinkingthat none of this stuff was ever
(03:55):
going to bother me.
And that shooting was mytipping point.
Um, I had literally beenexposed to hundreds of traumatic
incidents before that, justlike most first responders, our
firefighters, our paramedics,our police officers,
dispatchers.
I got to the point where Iliterally was losing everything.
I lost my marriage, my healthstarted to fail.
(04:15):
I endured a four-year federallawsuit for a justified
shooting, ended up being put ontrial in San Francisco.
And it got to the point, it wasso bad that I didn't want to be
here anymore.
I literally started puttingmyself in dangerous situations
at work, hoping to get killed inthe line of duty.
And it was another very tragicincident I talk about in my book
(04:38):
that that literally saved mylife.
And that was my wake-up call.
And in December of 2016, Ifinally asked for help.
And that's where I started myjourney of recovery from
post-traumatic stress injury,what I like to call it versus
disorder.
Now I'm on the other side ofthat.
I medically retired in 2018.
(04:58):
I'm living a phenomenal life.
I'm living proof that things doget better.
And so now I'm on a mission,not just across the United
States, but all over the world,to smash the stigma when it
comes to talking about mentalhealth, especially among our
military members and our firstresponders.
Bob Plaschke (05:19):
Wow, what a great story.
Um, you know, I'm struck bythat word disorder versus
injury.
I mean, it's it's I mean, it'sit's nothing genetic, it's
nothing that you asked for.
It's it's um it's it's imposedon you based off what you do
every day.
Um and it's I think it's a Idon't know it's a shame, but
it's I think the word disorderis not appropriate in that
(05:41):
context.
I think injury a much betterway to articulate it.
Michael Sugrue (05:45):
I couldn't agree more.
And that word disorder has avery negative connotation, and
that's part of what creates thestigma.
It makes people feel helpless,like they have no control over
this.
It's something that they'restuck with.
And ironically enough, youknow, most of our first
responders, paramedics,firefighters, police officers,
we often sustain physicalinjuries like knee injuries,
(06:06):
back injuries, shoulderinjuries.
Well, it's a proven fact thatrepeated exposure to trauma
causes a physical and a chemicalchange to the human brain.
So this is a physical injury,it's a physical injury to the
mind.
And so we need to create thesame culture of supporting our
first responders when they needhelp because there is a roadmap
(06:28):
to recovery, and there's thingsthat we can do to get better.
No different than if you've gota bad shoulder or bad back.
There's steps that you cantake, you know, whether it's
physical therapy, painmedication, injections, maybe
surgery, maybe more physicaltherapy.
The point is that there is aroad to recovery, and that's
where we need to change thisculture and this stigma.
Bob Plaschke (06:50):
So one thing that struck me about your background
is that you you face traumaticsituations in the military and
and an equal, if not greaternumber, in day-to-day policing.
Is there, I mean, I hate toask, but um, as is there a
difference in that contextbecause you're doing it overseas
or because you're engaging withyour own kind of fellow
citizens?
Michael Sugrue (07:10):
Um, I'll tell you actually, most of my trauma
comes from civilian lawenforcement and not the
military.
Um, I understand thateverybody's experience is
different, um, but I want topoint out something that most
people don't think about.
So, first off, you know, mostmilitary members are not combat
veterans.
Um, a very small number ofmilitary veterans actually go
(07:31):
into combat.
Now, when these service membersare in combat, they're in a
defined hostile zone for a setperiod of time.
You know, that could be sixmonths, it could be a year,
maybe do it once, maybe twice,maybe three times in their
military career.
But if you think about ourpolice officers, especially, and
now most officers are going towork 20 to 30 years, and in that
(07:55):
time, we're literally in combatevery single day.
There is no downtime, there isno safe zone.
Um, you know, we're literallyevery contact we make, whether
it's a 911 call, whether we stopand talk to somebody at the
street, we're making a vehiclestop.
Every single contact is apotential lethal threat.
And really, I think there's abig difference in that because
(08:17):
when I was in the military, youknow, when I was in the Middle
East, I was on heightened alert,I was on edge, I was
anticipating things, expectingthings.
But when I was stateside and Iwas back at my normal base, I
was off duty, I wasn't thinkinglike that.
I wasn't on high alert, Iwasn't constantly watching over
my shoulder.
And so again, everyone'sexperience is different.
(08:39):
But what I think is ironic isthat you know the public
generally accepts post-traumaticstress in our military members.
It's almost expected.
And I think the military hasdone a very good job at
educating our service member, atproviding resources, um, at
creating a culture where it isokay to ask for help.
Now, when you talk about ourfirst responders, we're just
(09:02):
starting to do this, whereas themilitary has been doing this
for over a decade.
And I think that's the realdifference is that the first
responder culture doesn't havethat same acceptance of asking
for help, and they don't havethe same level of resources that
many of our military membershave.
Bob Plaschke (09:19):
Um, no, it makes sense.
Um unfortunately, uh, you know,um, when I um and I frequently
go out um with police umofficers and police chiefs, and
as um I found out um, you know,when I when you go to dinner or
um go meet with them, they wouldprefer to sit with their back
to the wall.
Um, and over time I've becomejust kind of um thoughtful about
(09:43):
making sure they have thatseat.
And you think about that, youknow, to be uh here at home, you
know, kind of and and alwayswant to make sure you're back
that you have a clearvisibility, because to your
point, you're you're always onedge.
Um and how do I mean what whatis the it must be so difficult
(10:03):
to turn it off, so to speak, tofeel comfortable when you've
when you're off duty?
Is that even possible?
Michael Sugrue (10:09):
It's very difficult.
I mean, I actually retired in2018, but honestly, every time I
go out to eat, I always sitfacing the front door with my
back to the wall.
I'm always aware of who'saround me.
I'm constantly scanning.
I mean, I work out every singleday, it's part of my daily
routine.
And when I'm at the gym, I'mconstantly scanning people's
hands, I'm checking theirwaistbands.
(10:31):
You know, it's it's thesethings that are so ingrained for
me because it's survival.
And I would say that aftertime, it does lessen.
I don't think it fully goesaway.
Um, but to be, you know,usually when you're at home,
that's really the only safezone, and that's the only area
where you truly feel like youcan you can relax and not have
(10:52):
to worry about any threats.
Um, but I also think that youknow, since the political
climate has changed the lastcouple of years, that you know,
officers have become targets offduty, not just on duty.
And so I think now thatheightened sense of alert, it's
higher than it ever has been.
Bob Plaschke (11:10):
So, Michael, um uh a number of uh police officers,
police um executive staff umwill hopefully watch this.
What would be two or three kindof um either lessons learned or
kind of themes that you'd liketo convey to them?
Michael Sugrue (11:25):
I'll tell you the single most important thing,
and I was just talking aboutthis today on an interview, but
we need our police leaders andour police executives to be
honest, open, and to bevulnerable.
And what I mean by that is withtheir officers, with the people
that they command and theysupervise, we need to show them
the real humans that we are.
You know, we've all enduredtrauma in the workplace.
(11:46):
We've dealt with issues outsideof work, whether that's marital
problems, family problems,health problems, financial
problems.
But we need to get rid of thiskind of perfect image that
leaders often like to portray.
And the same goes for themilitary.
I mean, it's it's been along-standing thing that, you
know, the higher you move up inrank, the more pressure there is
(12:07):
to kind of portray this perfectimage and this perfect life and
this perfect family.
But in reality, nobody'sperfect, and we all suffer, we
all go through things.
But how is it that asubordinate is ever going to
open up to a superior and shareyou know that they're going
through difficult times and theyneed help if that leader is not
willing to be vulnerablethemselves first?
(12:28):
And this simple change inleadership and culture, I think,
can save countless lives.
And this applies at all levels.
I mean, we have leaders,whether you're a year on, you're
a leader.
You know what?
Because there's people justgraduating the police academy.
We have formal leaders likefield training officers,
corporals, sergeants,lieutenants, all the way up to
(12:50):
police chief.
And we need these people to bethe example to say, look, I was
once in your shoes.
Here's what was going on, buthere is how I overcame it.
Here's how I came out the otherside of this successfully.
I'm living proof that yes, thisstuff does happen, but things
can get better.
And I think that is the singlemost important thing that we
(13:11):
need to do, and that's gonnachange this culture of putting
shame behind, you know,admitting that you need help,
admitting that you have aproblem, and that's gonna save
lives.
Bob Plaschke (13:27):
Um what you've to your point, 20 years of of that
kind of um tension, that kind ofpressure, that kind of you
know, daily um um just dailyimpact.
Um and what would you say tothe executives, folks like
myself, who watch this, whohopefully you know um have the
(13:48):
same degree of respect um andadmiration, but you know, sit on
the other side of that blueline.
We don't really know, uh, wecan't empathize with what you
guys go through.
What would you say to us interms of uh things that we could
do?
Michael Sugrue (14:01):
Well, the first thing is to read Relentless
Courage, and I'll tell you why,because it's a null holds barred
look at the real humans behindthe badge and behind the
uniform.
And I'm gonna take someownership here though, but as a
as law enforcement, we don't doa good job of letting the
outside people in.
We also put up this image ofstrength and invincibility.
(14:22):
You know, we've got the uniformon, the badge, the gear, the
bulletproof vest.
All of that stuff isintimidating.
It creates a distance betweenus and the communities that we
serve.
And I've heard from countlessreaders time and time again that
this book helped change theirentire perception of law
enforcement.
And I'm talking both sides,people that had a positive view
(14:44):
already, and other people thathad very negative experiences
with law enforcement all acrossthe country.
And this book, and again, I'mnot special or unique, I'm just
willing to bear it all the good,the bad, the ugly, the mistakes
that I made.
But the fact is, we are human.
We do care.
We go out there every singleday willing to put our lives on
(15:05):
the line for complete strangers,knowing that we may not come
home to our own families.
Now that's not what we signedup for, but that's what we're
willing to do.
And we're willing to go outthere every single day and do it
because we care.
We truly care about the peoplethat we serve and the
communities that we protect.
Bob Plaschke (15:25):
No, I you're um, you know, I was talking to um, I
think I was talking to a firechief, and he said, you know,
where else, you know, what uhwhat other line of duty would
someone knocking on the door,you one, you'd let them in, um,
you um you let them engage youor engage your family.
I mean, the the level of oftrust that they have is that you
(15:47):
you place in the police officertoday, and and in return, what
the risks they have to take tohave that that that trust.
It's uh it's a it's an it's aum I don't know, it's an awesome
sense of responsibility and anawesome um set of challenges
that come along with it.
Um Michael, thank you so muchfor uh taking the time to talk
today.
Um folks, uh Relentless Courageis on Amazon, um, easy enough
(16:10):
to order, just a couple of of uhuh clicks, but a great um read
if you're trying to beunderstand policing and try and
for those police officerswatching to help them think
through how they can um do theirjobs better and be more um
vulnerable and more empatheticin their work.
Michael, thanks again fortaking the time.
Appreciate your service um andgood luck to um to the work
(16:33):
you're trying to do for umpolicing.
Michael Sugrue (16:36):
Thank you.
It was my pleasure.
Good afternoon.
My name is Bob Plaschke.
I'm the CEO of PepperBall orpepperball.com.
We're the leading provider ofuh non-lethal tactical solutions
or capabilities that policeagencies around the U.S.
and around the world use tode-escalate situations.
Um for us, um, our mission isabout saving lives, and uh part
(00:25):
of that is to put tools in thehands of police officers who can
um engage folks at distance andhelp them kind of change their
behavior or gain compliance, getthem to do what they need them
to do without having to get tooclose to them having to kind of
um be forced to move to um lesslethal or unfortunately, in the
(00:46):
worst cases, uh lethalsolutions.
Um when we talk about savinglives, um, we also talk about
the um saving the lives of thepolice officers that are out
there every day protecting us.
Um, they themselves to use alethal weapon or even to see
what they see on the streets,it's a horrific mental
challenge.
Um, as I read in a BostonUniversity study, um, police
(01:10):
officers are 50% more likely tocommit suicide than um an
average citizen.
And more officers die fromsuicide than they die in the in
the line of uh duty.
Um and that untold story is isis the topic for our guest
today, Michael Sugrue, if I'vepronounced that correctly.
Um Michael, welcome.
(01:31):
Michael um is a uh, as he'lltell you, a former uh decorated
uh officer in the Air Force anduh police officer um and the
author of Relentless Courage,which is a study of his own
experiences.
He's a speaker that goes aroundthe country talking about
mental health and talking topolice uh officers, um, and is
(01:53):
our guest today.
Michael, thanks so much fortaking the time to talk to us.
Michael Sugrue (01:58):
Absolutely, it's my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
Bob Plaschke (02:01):
Please just tell us um your background, your
story, um, kind of in whatyou're doing today.
Michael Sugrue (02:07):
It's a long story, so I'm gonna try to make
it as short as possible.
Um, I actually come from a lawenforcement family.
My stepfather, I consider myhero.
Uh, he's the one that raised mealong with my mother, but he
worked for the Sauce LittlePolice Department and then the
Richmond Police Department.
And I actually knew at the ageof eight years old that this was
my calling, this is what Iwanted to do.
(02:28):
Um I went off to college, got adegree in criminal justice, um,
full scholarship through theAir Force.
When I graduated in '98, I wentstraight into security forces,
which is basicallyanti-terrorism, force
protection, law enforcement,nuclear security, air base
ground defense.
I did that for six and a halfyears, served all over the
(02:49):
world, from the Middle East toEurope, South America, all over
the U.S.
Got out as a captain.
I was actually stationed backhere at Travis Air Force Base in
California.
And I went straight intocivilian law enforcement.
I was hired by the Walnut CreekPolice Department, went through
the academy, started inDecember of 2004 as a fully
(03:10):
sworn officer, worked a bunch ofdifferent assignments from
patrol officer, field trainingofficer, detective.
I was undercover two years on aCalifornia state drug task
force, promoted to sergeant, andwas also a public information
officer.
And my story today reallystarts as a brand new sergeant.
Actually, the day afterChristmas, I was involved in a
(03:34):
very traumatic incident.
Ended up being a fatalofficer-involved shooting.
And that was my tipping point.
Um, like most first responders,I never talked about the
horrific things that we see anddeal with on a daily basis.
I just bottled them up.
I kept it for my family,thought I was protecting them,
and really I isolated thinkingthat none of this stuff was ever
(03:55):
going to bother me.
And that shooting was mytipping point.
Um, I had literally beenexposed to hundreds of traumatic
incidents before that, justlike most first responders, our
firefighters, our paramedics,our police officers,
dispatchers.
I got to the point where Iliterally was losing everything.
I lost my marriage, my healthstarted to fail.
(04:15):
I endured a four-year federallawsuit for a justified
shooting, ended up being put ontrial in San Francisco.
And it got to the point, it wasso bad that I didn't want to be
here anymore.
I literally started puttingmyself in dangerous situations
at work, hoping to get killed inthe line of duty.
And it was another very tragicincident I talk about in my book
(04:38):
that that literally saved mylife.
And that was my wake-up call.
And in December of 2016, Ifinally asked for help.
And that's where I started myjourney of recovery from
post-traumatic stress injury,what I like to call it versus
disorder.
Now I'm on the other side ofthat.
I medically retired in 2018.
(04:58):
I'm living a phenomenal life.
I'm living proof that things doget better.
And so now I'm on a mission,not just across the United
States, but all over the world,to smash the stigma when it
comes to talking about mentalhealth, especially among our
military members and our firstresponders.
Bob Plaschke (05:19):
Wow, what a great story.
Um, you know, I'm struck bythat word disorder versus
injury.
I mean, it's it's I mean, it'sit's nothing genetic, it's
nothing that you asked for.
It's it's um it's it's imposedon you based off what you do
every day.
Um and it's I think it's a Idon't know it's a shame, but
it's I think the word disorderis not appropriate in that
(05:41):
context.
I think injury a much betterway to articulate it.
Michael Sugrue (05:45):
I couldn't agree more.
And that word disorder has avery negative connotation, and
that's part of what creates thestigma.
It makes people feel helpless,like they have no control over
this.
It's something that they'restuck with.
And ironically enough, youknow, most of our first
responders, paramedics,firefighters, police officers,
we often sustain physicalinjuries like knee injuries,
(06:06):
back injuries, shoulderinjuries.
Well, it's a proven fact thatrepeated exposure to trauma
causes a physical and a chemicalchange to the human brain.
So this is a physical injury,it's a physical injury to the
mind.
And so we need to create thesame culture of supporting our
first responders when they needhelp because there is a roadmap
(06:28):
to recovery, and there's thingsthat we can do to get better.
No different than if you've gota bad shoulder or bad back.
There's steps that you cantake, you know, whether it's
physical therapy, painmedication, injections, maybe
surgery, maybe more physicaltherapy.
The point is that there is aroad to recovery, and that's
where we need to change thisculture and this stigma.
Bob Plaschke (06:50):
So one thing that struck me about your background
is that you you face traumaticsituations in the military and
and an equal, if not greaternumber, in day-to-day policing.
Is there, I mean, I hate toask, but um, as is there a
difference in that contextbecause you're doing it overseas
or because you're engaging withyour own kind of fellow
citizens?
Michael Sugrue (07:10):
Um, I'll tell you actually, most of my trauma
comes from civilian lawenforcement and not the
military.
Um, I understand thateverybody's experience is
different, um, but I want topoint out something that most
people don't think about.
So, first off, you know, mostmilitary members are not combat
veterans.
Um, a very small number ofmilitary veterans actually go
(07:31):
into combat.
Now, when these service membersare in combat, they're in a
defined hostile zone for a setperiod of time.
You know, that could be sixmonths, it could be a year,
maybe do it once, maybe twice,maybe three times in their
military career.
But if you think about ourpolice officers, especially, and
now most officers are going towork 20 to 30 years, and in that
(07:55):
time, we're literally in combatevery single day.
There is no downtime, there isno safe zone.
Um, you know, we're literallyevery contact we make, whether
it's a 911 call, whether we stopand talk to somebody at the
street, we're making a vehiclestop.
Every single contact is apotential lethal threat.
And really, I think there's abig difference in that because
(08:17):
when I was in the military, youknow, when I was in the Middle
East, I was on heightened alert,I was on edge, I was
anticipating things, expectingthings.
But when I was stateside and Iwas back at my normal base, I
was off duty, I wasn't thinkinglike that.
I wasn't on high alert, Iwasn't constantly watching over
my shoulder.
And so again, everyone'sexperience is different.
(08:39):
But what I think is ironic isthat you know the public
generally accepts post-traumaticstress in our military members.
It's almost expected.
And I think the military hasdone a very good job at
educating our service member, atproviding resources, um, at
creating a culture where it isokay to ask for help.
Now, when you talk about ourfirst responders, we're just
(09:02):
starting to do this, whereas themilitary has been doing this
for over a decade.
And I think that's the realdifference is that the first
responder culture doesn't havethat same acceptance of asking
for help, and they don't havethe same level of resources that
many of our military membershave.
Bob Plaschke (09:19):
Um, no, it makes sense.
Um unfortunately, uh, you know,um, when I um and I frequently
go out um with police umofficers and police chiefs, and
as um I found out um, you know,when I when you go to dinner or
um go meet with them, they wouldprefer to sit with their back
to the wall.
Um, and over time I've becomejust kind of um thoughtful about
(09:43):
making sure they have thatseat.
And you think about that, youknow, to be uh here at home, you
know, kind of and and alwayswant to make sure you're back
that you have a clearvisibility, because to your
point, you're you're always onedge.
Um and how do I mean what whatis the it must be so difficult
(10:03):
to turn it off, so to speak, tofeel comfortable when you've
when you're off duty?
Is that even possible?
Michael Sugrue (10:09):
It's very difficult.
I mean, I actually retired in2018, but honestly, every time I
go out to eat, I always sitfacing the front door with my
back to the wall.
I'm always aware of who'saround me.
I'm constantly scanning.
I mean, I work out every singleday, it's part of my daily
routine.
And when I'm at the gym, I'mconstantly scanning people's
hands, I'm checking theirwaistbands.
(10:31):
You know, it's it's thesethings that are so ingrained for
me because it's survival.
And I would say that aftertime, it does lessen.
I don't think it fully goesaway.
Um, but to be, you know,usually when you're at home,
that's really the only safezone, and that's the only area
where you truly feel like youcan you can relax and not have
(10:52):
to worry about any threats.
Um, but I also think that youknow, since the political
climate has changed the lastcouple of years, that you know,
officers have become targets offduty, not just on duty.
And so I think now thatheightened sense of alert, it's
higher than it ever has been.
Bob Plaschke (11:10):
So, Michael, um uh a number of uh police officers,
police um executive staff umwill hopefully watch this.
What would be two or three kindof um either lessons learned or
kind of themes that you'd liketo convey to them?
Michael Sugrue (11:25):
I'll tell you the single most important thing,
and I was just talking aboutthis today on an interview, but
we need our police leaders andour police executives to be
honest, open, and to bevulnerable.
And what I mean by that is withtheir officers, with the people
that they command and theysupervise, we need to show them
the real humans that we are.
You know, we've all enduredtrauma in the workplace.
(11:46):
We've dealt with issues outsideof work, whether that's marital
problems, family problems,health problems, financial
problems.
But we need to get rid of thiskind of perfect image that
leaders often like to portray.
And the same goes for themilitary.
I mean, it's it's been along-standing thing that, you
know, the higher you move up inrank, the more pressure there is
(12:07):
to kind of portray this perfectimage and this perfect life and
this perfect family.
But in reality, nobody'sperfect, and we all suffer, we
all go through things.
But how is it that asubordinate is ever going to
open up to a superior and shareyou know that they're going
through difficult times and theyneed help if that leader is not
willing to be vulnerablethemselves first?
(12:28):
And this simple change inleadership and culture, I think,
can save countless lives.
And this applies at all levels.
I mean, we have leaders,whether you're a year on, you're
a leader.
You know what?
Because there's people justgraduating the police academy.
We have formal leaders likefield training officers,
corporals, sergeants,lieutenants, all the way up to
(12:50):
police chief.
And we need these people to bethe example to say, look, I was
once in your shoes.
Here's what was going on, buthere is how I overcame it.
Here's how I came out the otherside of this successfully.
I'm living proof that yes, thisstuff does happen, but things
can get better.
And I think that is the singlemost important thing that we
(13:11):
need to do, and that's gonnachange this culture of putting
shame behind, you know,admitting that you need help,
admitting that you have aproblem, and that's gonna save
lives.
Bob Plaschke (13:27):
Um what you've to your point, 20 years of of that
kind of um tension, that kind ofpressure, that kind of you
know, daily um um just dailyimpact.
Um and what would you say tothe executives, folks like
myself, who watch this, whohopefully you know um have the
(13:48):
same degree of respect um andadmiration, but you know, sit on
the other side of that blueline.
We don't really know, uh, wecan't empathize with what you
guys go through.
What would you say to us interms of uh things that we could
do?
Michael Sugrue (14:01):
Well, the first thing is to read Relentless
Courage, and I'll tell you why,because it's a null holds barred
look at the real humans behindthe badge and behind the
uniform.
And I'm gonna take someownership here though, but as a
as law enforcement, we don't doa good job of letting the
outside people in.
We also put up this image ofstrength and invincibility.
(14:22):
You know, we've got the uniformon, the badge, the gear, the
bulletproof vest.
All of that stuff isintimidating.
It creates a distance betweenus and the communities that we
serve.
And I've heard from countlessreaders time and time again that
this book helped change theirentire perception of law
enforcement.
And I'm talking both sides,people that had a positive view
(14:44):
already, and other people thathad very negative experiences
with law enforcement all acrossthe country.
And this book, and again, I'mnot special or unique, I'm just
willing to bear it all the good,the bad, the ugly, the mistakes
that I made.
But the fact is, we are human.
We do care.
We go out there every singleday willing to put our lives on
(15:05):
the line for complete strangers,knowing that we may not come
home to our own families.
Now that's not what we signedup for, but that's what we're
willing to do.
And we're willing to go outthere every single day and do it
because we care.
We truly care about the peoplethat we serve and the
communities that we protect.
Bob Plaschke (15:25):
No, I you're um, you know, I was talking to um, I
think I was talking to a firechief, and he said, you know,
where else, you know, what uhwhat other line of duty would
someone knocking on the door,you one, you'd let them in, um,
you um you let them engage youor engage your family.
I mean, the the level of oftrust that they have is that you
(15:47):
you place in the police officertoday, and and in return, what
the risks they have to take tohave that that that trust.
It's uh it's a it's an it's aum I don't know, it's an awesome
sense of responsibility and anawesome um set of challenges
that come along with it.
Um Michael, thank you so muchfor uh taking the time to talk
today.
Um folks, uh Relentless Courageis on Amazon, um, easy enough
(16:10):
to order, just a couple of of uhuh clicks, but a great um read
if you're trying to beunderstand policing and try and
for those police officerswatching to help them think
through how they can um do theirjobs better and be more um
vulnerable and more empatheticin their work.
Michael, thanks again fortaking the time.
Appreciate your service um andgood luck to um to the work
(16:33):
you're trying to do for umpolicing.
Michael Sugrue (16:36):
Thank you.
It was my pleasure.
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