The mental health challenges facing police officers in America's suburban departments deserve just as much attention as those in major metropolitan forces. Deputy Director of Public Safety, Brad Petersen of Minnesota's Cottage Grove Police Department pulls back the curtain on what he describes as an "average" American police agency - not too urban, not too rural, with officers handling just 5-10 calls per shift.
In these relatively safe communities, officers face a unique psychological challenge: maintaining vigilance without succumbing to complacency. "Because our community is so safe, it's easy to get lulled into a false sense of security where we drop our guard and fail to recognize potential dangers," Peterson explains. This balancing act creates its own form of stress that compounds the universal challenges officers face.
The statistics are sobering. While the average American experiences 4-7 traumatic incidents in their lifetime, police officers encounter 200-400 over a 20-year career. This cumulative trauma contributes to suicide rates among retired officers that are twice the national average. Cottage Grove has responded with a comprehensive wellness program including mental health training, counseling, peer support, canine therapy, and chaplain services.
Today's officers also navigate increasingly complex use-of-force situations and societal issues beyond traditional law enforcement. When asked what he wishes the public understood about policing, Peterson's answer was simple but profound: "Officers are humans and we're not perfect. We're trying to do the best we can... a little grace and forgiveness would be awesome."
Recorded during National Police Week, this conversation offers vital perspective on the humans behind the badges in America's most typical police departments. Subscribe to First Response for more stories that take you behind the scenes of modern policing and the real challenges facing those who serve.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Plaschke (00:06):
Well, good morning .
As I always say, when I kickthese things off, the front line
is loud, but the voice isbehind it louder and the front
line being the police front line, I'm Bob Plaschke.
This is First Response.
This is the number one podcastthat takes you behind the badge
(00:26):
the police officer's badge anduncovers real stories and
experiences of first respondersfrom all walks of life and the
topics shaping public safety andpolicing today.
Hopefully, if you're listening,hopefully you're curious about
the human behind the hero, andthese are true heroes.
Hopefully you're curious aboutthe human behind the hero, and
(00:47):
these are true heroes and topicsthat are driving policing in
the United States.
This is kind of your hopefullyyour front row seat, I should
say.
So let's roll, let's getstarted.
I should say that this podcastis sponsored by PepperBall,
where I have the honor to serveas the chief executive officer.
Pepperball creates non-lethalalternatives to guns that police
(01:08):
use to keep themselves and thepublic they serve safe.
So today we're joined by adeputy director of public safety
of the Cottage Grove PoliceDepartment, Brad Petersen, and
Brad has been on the force manyyears.
We'll talk about that.
Cottage Grove is based inMinnesota, outside of
(01:32):
Minneapolis.
It's 50 or 49 sworn officers.
Brad, thanks for taking thetime today.
The first question I'll ask youis 50 officers I think you said
50,000 citizens you served.
This feels like kind of youknow the ultimate middle of the
(01:55):
road, kind of you know MayberryRFD in kind of present day.
This is kind of the.
This is a very typical policeagency in the United States,
would you say.
Brad Petersen (02:05):
Yeah, I would say it's a very average.
If you take a cross section ofthe United States, it's not too
small, it's not too big, it'snot inner city, it's not rural
very average.
So we get a little bit ofeverything, but it's not too
busy and close to the metro, butnot inner city either.
(02:28):
So get a good, good mix andit's very average.
Bob Plaschke (02:34):
Well, you know, I think that's you know what's
interesting.
I try to describe policing tomy friends in the United States.
You know, I tell them there's18,000 agencies.
You know I tell them there's18,000 agencies and you know
from all they know is watching,you know, kind of LAPD or
Chicago PD or Blue Bloods, andyou know there aren't any shows,
frankly, for the what isabsolutely the vast majority of
(02:57):
police agencies of the 18,000,probably 16,000 agencies look
like yours, right, they're inthe suburbs, they're taking care
of you know they have theirshare of crime.
It's not particularlyoverwhelming and it's and it's,
but it's.
What police do every day iskeep people in communities like
(03:18):
Cottage Grove safe.
You know what kind of policing,what, what's typically the, the
, what, what do your officersface on a kind of a day-to-day
basis?
What, what do they do?
Um, you know again, differentthan if you were in the downtown
streets of uh, of New York city.
Brad Petersen (03:38):
So fortunately, our officers don't spend most of
their shift being reactive innature, meaning that they're not
responding to calls fromdispatch or crimes in progress.
The average officer on anaverage day might respond to
five to ten calls from dispatch.
Of course there's days that areslower, some days are busier,
(04:01):
but that would be an averagecall load for an officer is
about five to 10 calls per day.
The rest of their shift isspent engaging with the
community and being veryproactive in nature, trying to
prevent crime and establishrelationships in the community
and tending to the needs of ourbusiness districts, doing
proactive patrols inneighborhoods, checking out our
(04:24):
parks, all that kind of stuff tobe present and visible in the
community, engaging with ourcitizens.
And of course there's someadministrative time built in for
writing reports and doing sometrainings and other
administrative tasks.
Bob Plaschke (04:42):
But that's kind of what a typical day looks like
for us other administrativetasks, but that's kind of what a
typical day looks like for us.
You know, we talk a lot abouton this podcast.
We talk a lot about mentalhealth and some of the
challenges that police officersface and you know, I think it's
easy for those who listen tovisualize what someone at NYPD
(05:03):
might deal with.
Right, because they're getting,as you said, there are a lot of
reactive calls they're runninginto danger, that they know that
they're running into danger.
In that context, that's notwhat your officers face.
Yet I would suggest that themental health challenges that
(05:25):
your officers face are just assignificant as what somebody on
LAPD would deal with.
They're just different.
This is, by the way, for folkslistening, this is police week.
This is a week that the UnitedStates takes out to honor the
police force and policing in theUnited States.
(05:45):
It's a big deal and a lot ofthe discussions in Washington
this week are around mentalillness and a mental challenge
and mental health for policing.
So this topic is near and dearto my heart and I know tears.
Director Peterson, directorPeterson.
(06:11):
So in that context, you know,walk me through what in kind of
an average USA police forcewhich you guys are what kind of
mental health challenges do youguys face and does your officers
?
I'm not sure that it's a mentalhealth challenge, but one of
our challenges that we face iscombating complacency.
Because our community is sosafe, because we don't spend
(06:32):
most of our day responding tocrimes in progress, it's easy to
get lulled into a sense ofcomplacency and false security,
where we drop our guard and failto recognize the potential
dangers that we're encounteringand that can be very dangerous
for our officers, bothphysically and mentally.
(06:53):
Right, you could walk into asituation not mentally prepared
and it has tragic outcomes andthat can be shocking to your
mental health as well as yourphysical health.
So we work very hard to keepour officers situationally aware
(07:15):
and vigilant and we give theman incredible amount of training
to stay on top of their game,of training to stay on top of
their game so that they don'tget complacent and can protect
their safety as well as thesafety of the citizens.
So that's one aspect of it.
The other thing that we face isall of the same mental health
(07:40):
challenges that every policeofficer everywhere in the
country faces.
We're all human.
We have marital issues, we havesubstance abuse issues, we have
the cumulative stress of thejob itself, financial issues,
you name it.
Everything that averageAmericans face we face and
(08:02):
sometimes we face, and sometimes, especially in the past, there
was a stigma that preventedofficers from seeking mental
health help and so we justgutted that stress and it built
up and it came out in not greatways, right Bubbles to the
(08:25):
surface and if it's not dealtwith then it can result in
self-harm and self-destructivebehaviors and can end careers,
things of that nature.
So one of the things that we dois we try to eliminate those
stigmas or any barriers toseeking help.
So we've done a lot of mentalhealth awareness training,
(08:46):
officer wellness awarenesstrainings, education, and really
changed our culture so that ourofficers recognize signs and
symptoms in each other and wecan help each other out and at
least recognize it in ourselvesand seek help when we need it.
(09:09):
You know, what's interesting is this notion of
helping your officers stayvigilant and to stay aware,
right, not get lulled.
And what an interestingpsychological challenge, right?
As humans, we don't want tofeel under stress, right?
(09:32):
We prefer to be, you know, feelsafe.
Safe thing for your officers isto be, is to kind of, you know,
psychologically fall into apattern of of feeling safe,
because, in effect, then they'recaught off guard and then
that's when probably bad thingshappen.
(09:53):
So you, you, you're,effectively, you're asking them
to stay, um, to, in effect, stayin a higher degree of tension
and a higher degree of stressproactively to keep them in
their in in a higher degree oftension and a higher degree of
stress proactively to keep themand their citizens safe.
Brad Petersen (10:09):
In a sense, yes, but we need to find that balance
right.
We don't want them hyper awareor being over vigilant and
overreacting to a situation thatdoesn't work that high level of
stress or reaction but they doneed to maintain a minimal
amount of awareness andvigilance and be able to respond
(10:32):
appropriately to the threats.
The key is reading thesituation for what it is and
responding reasonably to thatsituation.
Bob Plaschke (10:44):
Well, you know, and what a tough balance to find
, right.
I mean, to your point, when youpull a car over you, you want
to get out and and uh, and feellike you're safe.
But to your point, you don't.
You also don't want to besurprised by what might be
inside and what might that thatdriver might, might present to
you.
So you have to, and, to yourpoint, you don't want to
(11:05):
overreact to someone who maybeis having a bad day.
That's such a hard balance tofind.
Brad Petersen (11:22):
And how do you train to help officers find that
balance?
Part of it is and giving themenough repetitions in training
to develop confidence, because Ifeel like when our officers are
confident in their abilitiesthey're less likely to react out
(11:44):
of fear.
So I want them to feelconfident in their skills,
knowing that they can handle anysituation.
Feel confident in their skills,knowing that they can handle
any situation.
They have the proper skills,policies, techniques, tools to
deal with any situation.
The other part is inoculatingthem, to stress, in the training
environment.
We don't want to end up incondition black because we're
(12:06):
overwhelmed by a situation.
I want them to experience thesesituations in the training
environment and I want them tomake those mistakes in the
training environment and not inthe real world.
Bob Plaschke (12:20):
You know, it's such a to your point, it's such
a fine balance to find, right Tobe aware enough and attuned not
to be overly aware.
And then to your point.
You know, you, you know thepolice officers are brothers,
sisters, husbands, wives,mothers, fathers, and they bring
(12:40):
a host.
They have a whole set ofpersonal issues of which, for
them, they have to deal with,but they can't really ever have
a bad day, right?
I mean?
I mean, you know I can have abad day in my job and I can
apologize to my team afterwards.
Having a bad day as an officer,you can't, I mean you can't.
You know there's some pretty,you know significant
(13:03):
consequences of having a bad dayin front of a public.
Brad Petersen (13:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the expectations thatare placed upon our police
officers are unreasonable, butit is what it is.
We're expected to be perfectevery day.
That's not reality.
I know it, you know it.
But we need to give ourofficers the support and tools
(13:29):
to help them be as perfect asthey humanly can be on each and
every day.
Bob Plaschke (13:35):
Yeah, you know and you think about it it's.
You know I'm biased, we servePepperball, serves police
agencies across the country andthey're our customers.
But I think it is a bit unfairright that if you're not perfect
you've failed, and you know, ifyou have a sick child at home
(13:59):
that you still have to present aperfect face to the public.
It's a high bar to ask and toask of kind of a perfect
execution and to your point,it's not realistic and so
(14:19):
there's no question there.
It's just kind of a statement,the I think the other thing that
and maybe you tell me you'vebeen on the force now, you've
been in on in policing for 20years.
Is that right?
Brad Petersen (14:31):
Yeah, about 20, going up on 22 years.
Bob Plaschke (14:34):
I mean, has the nature of the job changed in
that 20 years?
Has it gotten tougher or?
Brad Petersen (14:43):
maybe different.
It's certainly changed.
It's changed in a lot of ways.
It's changed in some ways forthe betterment of the profession
.
In other ways, I think, it'sbecome harder.
So I think now some of thethings that we're doing better
are being more transparent, moreaccountable, being more
(15:06):
professional, providing bettertraining and resources to our
officers.
Awareness on a host ofdifferent issues has increased,
but I think the expectationsplaced upon police officers and
departments, along with thescrutiny and lack of support in
(15:36):
some areas has really made itchallenging.
Bob Plaschke (15:37):
You know it's, um, I was interviewing a sheriff
the other day and, um, he said,like he goes in the old days,
what he said he goes, um, I'dask you, I'd tell you and then
I'd make you.
And you know it was relativelysimple and very few times did I
have to do it more than ask ortell.
And he said now it's I and youknow, and there was very limited
(16:04):
accountability for making youdo something, for making you do
something and to your point.
That's where policing, you know, has gotten has had some, some
challenges in the past wherepolice officers making folks
comply in a way that was maybeunnecessarily rough or
unnecessarily aggressive.
(16:24):
He said, you know, now it's Ihave to ask you, I have to ask
you again, I have to ask you athird time.
You know it's a much moredifficult challenge because you
know the combination of changesin society, changing in policing
, changing.
You know some bad, you knowsome things that have happened
in the past.
The net of it is it's a muchharder environment to do our
(16:48):
work.
So that was thing one, and thenthing two is that we're asked
to address a lot wider range ofchallenges.
Before it was, you know, I'mtrying to respond to a crime.
Now I'm responding to mentalillness, I'm responding to
domestic disputes, I'mresponding to homelessness a
series of challenges that youknow that I wasn't trained for
(17:09):
when I first came up on theforce.
Brad Petersen (17:13):
Are those two fair comments?
They are, and I would even sayit's more challenging and
complicated than how you statedit.
Your analogy that we used tofollow the principle of ask,
tell, make, but now we have toask, ask, ask, ask, ask again
(17:38):
before we make.
It's even more complicated thanthat because in some situations
it might be appropriate to askfour, five, ten, twenty times
and spend hours trying tode-escalate a situation to avoid
a use of force encounter.
But in other situations itmight be completely unreasonable
to ask at all.
I should immediately jump intomake mode.
(18:00):
Right when there are immediatedangers to the community or my
fellow officers or myself, Imight skip the ask stage.
And so for new officers cominginto this profession to try and
figure that out, it's not blackand white, it's all shades of
gray and it's very difficult tofigure out.
Well, the last call, you justtold me I need to spend more
(18:25):
time de-escalating.
And now this call, you'retelling me that I should have
used force quicker.
It's a very difficult skill tolearn for new officers.
Bob Plaschke (18:39):
And I think the range of topics that they have
to engage in are now much wider,right?
I mean, where before youprobably, you know, maybe when
you came up with the force,homelessness and mental illness
was not as much of an issue.
Now it's probably more.
Maybe it's a significantminority of what you guys see.
Brad Petersen (18:58):
Yeah, we're being asked to address all of the
gaps in social services, inhealth care, in homelessness,
you name it.
We're the stopgap for all of it.
Now to the point that we have aspecial team, even in cottage
(19:26):
grove, that that is specificallygeared towards and their sole
purpose is to deal with thoseissues mental health, substance
abuse, homelessness.
They don't answer calls fromfrom dispatch.
They practically go out, engagein those vulnerable populations
and try and mitigate theirimpact on the community and
mitigate the call load on ourpatrol officers.
Bob Plaschke (19:54):
And you know, and there you say, that's where I
see the you know sun shiningthrough the clouds is that
policing, you know, policingagencies which have historically
never been overfunded but havebeen challenged.
There You're creatively tryingto adjust, right?
You're not?
You're not putting your handsup and saying I can't do it.
You're like you know, let's,let's create a special team that
(20:17):
goes out and proactively triesto engage these challenged
populations and try to get outahead of these problems.
And I think that's, you know,that's the positive out of this
is that your policing isevolving to address these new
challenges.
Brad Petersen (20:34):
For sure, in some areas faster than others, but
I'm proud of the fact thatCottage Grove has been very
progressive and forward thinkingand we look around at other
communities and other parts ofthe country to see what
challenges they're facing andhow they're dealing with it.
And we're very quick to adaptand luckily we have a supportive
(20:58):
community and leadership herethat funds us, supports us and
allows us to stay ahead of thereform curve.
Bob Plaschke (21:10):
You know and give me a sense of you know.
Circling back to mental healthand mental wellness, so to speak
.
I cite, and I'm going tocontinue to do this on every
podcast the average Americanwill experience somewhere
between four to seven traumaticincidents in their life,
(21:31):
traumatic being loss of asibling or a parent or a child,
or a divorce, something that isemotionally a significant injury
, or a car accident.
An average police officer overa 20-year career will experience
(21:52):
somewhere between 200 to 400 ofthose incidents.
No-transcript.
(22:26):
How many is it?
Do you take time off?
Do you put people in classrooms?
Is it individual counseling?
What's the?
What's the program that you'vecreated at Cottage Grove for
mental health and wellness?
Brad Petersen (22:44):
health and wellness.
So we've created a reallycomprehensive and holistic
wellness program that reallyaddresses all eight dimensions
of wellness.
But in regards specifically tomental health, we've done a lot
of mental health awarenesstraining and education.
When there are criticalincidents, we do critical
incident debriefings.
We provide free counseling toour officers and their immediate
(23:10):
family Annually.
We do mental health check-ins.
We have a peer support team, wehave a canine therapy, we have
a chaplain program, a veryrobust mental health program
here.
So again, trying to get aheadof potential problems, address
the fact that these traumas arereal, they're unavoidable,
(23:31):
healthy and successful in thiscareer up until the point of
retirement and beyond.
Bob Plaschke (23:48):
You know, it's what they said the leading cause
of death for retired policeofficers is suicide and that
just kind of brings home thecumulative effect of this kind
of stress.
The cumulative effect of thiskind of stress, and I should say
(24:11):
, to be specific, the suiciderates amongst police officers,
retired police officers, istwice the national average.
So I can't say it's the leadingcause of death, but I can say
that suicide is a verysignificant challenge for police
officers.
You know, what's interesting tome is, you know you talk about
canine therapy and chaplainsupport and peer group.
These are investments that wedon't make in the private sector
(24:34):
.
You know, I don't have a caninetherapy for people at Pepperball
.
Maybe I should a pepper ball,maybe I should, but you know,
but it makes perfect sense to mebecause the, the, the, the to
have something go wrong in a, ina policing context, is, you
know, the, the, the risk of, ofand the consequence of something
(24:56):
going wrong is so much moresignificant.
How do you deal with that as as, as the?
You know you deal with that asthe number two guy in your
organization.
It must weigh heavily on yourmind the responsibility of
ensuring that the 49 folksunderneath you are in a good
(25:21):
position to do their work andthat if something goes wrong, it
could go wrong very badly.
I mean, is that stress for youpersonally, just to kind of deal
with?
Brad Petersen (25:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think about it every day.
I think about it before I go tobed every night, and the only
reason I can lay my head on thepillow and sleep every night is
because I know in my heart thatI'm giving my officers the best
training resources, support,stack all the odds that I
(25:55):
possibly can in their favor todo their job well, serve the
community well, and that myofficers themselves are going to
be well.
Obviously, we all have limitedbudgets and multiple competing
(26:18):
priorities for our limitedbudgets, et cetera, but I know
that I'm doing everything Ipossibly can for them.
Sure, there are things that I'mstill striving to achieve, that
are still on my checklist, thatI'm working towards, but I know
that we're giving themeverything we possibly can in
this moment to do their jobswell and be happy and healthy.
Bob Plaschke (26:39):
You know I've got two questions.
The second to last question isI always ask the folks that are
on this podcast if there was onething that you'd like to tell
people that are not in theprofession, that haven't worn a
badge.
Tell them about the profession.
Profession, you know somethingthat you know, just that they
(27:02):
may not be aware of or thinkabout.
What's the?
Brad Petersen (27:12):
one thing that you'd like them to take away
about policing and policeofficers.
It's a great question.
I actually never thought aboutthat before, so you kind of put
me on the spot, I guess I wouldsay, acknowledging the fact that
officers are humans and we'renot perfect.
(27:36):
But in most cases we have thebest intentions and we're trying
to do the best we can in asituation and, as long as we're
doing it honestly, within thebest of our ability and
resources, a little bit of graceand forgiveness would be
awesome.
Bob Plaschke (27:56):
Yeah, I think that's right.
A little bit of empathy in thatcontext.
The word grace you try to giveit to yourself, you try to give
it to your people in anyorganization and particularly in
policing.
In that context, given what'sat stake and given what we're
asking police officers to do,all right, director Peterson.
(28:19):
The last question is we like tomake a very small honorarium in
your name to a charity of yourchoice.
What's the charity that we canmake a small donation for?
Thanking you for taking thetime on the podcast today.
Brad Petersen (28:33):
Well, first, thank you for giving me this
opportunity to speak out on theOffice of Wellness topic.
Secondly, thank you for thedonation On the Office of
Wellness topic.
Secondly, thank you for thedonation and I would love for
that donation to go to the localBeyond the Yellow Ribbon
organization, which supports ourveterans and military families
(28:54):
here in our community.
Bob Plaschke (28:57):
Oh, so it's called .
Beyond the Yellow Ribbon Isthat a national organization?
Brad Petersen (29:01):
It's for sure, statewide.
Not sure if it's national, butit's called Beyond the Yellow
Ribbon.
So just about each communityhere in Minnesota has a yellow
ribbon organization thatsupports their military
community.
Bob Plaschke (29:15):
What is the song?
Tie a yellow ribbon around theold oak tree.
For those who don't rememberwhat the yellow ribbon is, it's
a.
I think it was after the Iraqwar that we did that.
(29:35):
That was that this became a bigthing where you would tie a
yellow ribbon when, yeah, firstgo for, first go for, and it was
a, a way to acknowledge youknow someone that was overseas
and kind of you would.
You would tie the ribbon aroundthe tree and wait for them to
come back.
So for folks that don't knowwhat that that is, for the
(29:58):
younger folks.
Thank you, director Peterson.
We appreciate the time and and,and importantly, the commitment
to your profession and thecommitment to your people, to
your officers, and we thank you.
Thank you for taking the timewith us.
So you know, folks, as I try toreflect on Director Peterson's
(30:27):
comments.
You know, director Peterson'scomments.
You know it's easy for me tointerview folks you know from
the NYPD and talk about thechallenges they face, because we
can all visualize it, you know,and we can empathize to some
degree with having to respond toconstant crime and run into
(30:49):
danger.
Having to respond to constantcrime and run into danger, I
think what is harder toempathize with, but as equally
important, is what the averagepolice agency in the United
States and the average officersdeal with, and that is living in
areas that are not as muchcrime and where the officers are
(31:16):
more kind of proactive in theirpolicing versus reactive.
And yet they face different butsimilar challenges from a
mental health perspective.
Different but similarchallenges from a mental health
perspective.
For them, it's how to stayaware and how to be ready for
and how to be vigilant, not tobe overly aggressive, not to
(31:40):
look for trouble, but to makesure that if trouble
unexpectedly shows up which itwill once a year that they're
ready and that they can respond.
And you think about howdifficult that challenge is, um,
and and how you have to do itevery day and that every day
could be that.
That day, um, and you know thatyour child is sick that day, or
(32:03):
that you had a fight with yourwife or you have some financial
challenges.
How do you not bring that intothat day and how do you make
sure that doesn't turn into anescalation or something that
goes wrong that affects you andyour career for the rest of your
life.
And I think that's Deputy ChiefPetersen said.
(32:27):
To give these officers grace,they're not perfect, they're
just brothers, sisters.
To give these officers grace,they're not perfect, they're
just.
They're brothers, sisters,fathers, mothers, um sons and
daughters.
That and they'll, they'll havebad days, and yet we ask them to
protect us, we ask them to gointo danger for us.
We have to give them the graceto know that they're not perfect
, um, and we have to, we have tobe empathetic to what they're
(32:50):
going through, whether it be,you know, in the downtown
streets of Chicago or in CottageGrove Minnesota.
So, um, uh, this is again PoliceWeek.
It's the chance for us to toremember and respect the
policing over a million um swornofficers in the United States.
Remember the, the more than 350plus officers that were killed
(33:12):
in the line of duty last year,and remember how brave and truly
wonderful this industry is andthese group of folks are.
So my name is Bob Plaschke.
I am the CEO of PepperBall.
This is First Response, a lookbehind the badge.
Thank you for taking the timeand we'll see you on the next go
(33:38):
around.
Be safe out there.
Well, good morning .
As I always say, when I kickthese things off, the front line
is loud, but the voice isbehind it louder and the front
line being the police front line, I'm Bob Plaschke.
This is First Response.
This is the number one podcastthat takes you behind the badge
(00:26):
the police officer's badge anduncovers real stories and
experiences of first respondersfrom all walks of life and the
topics shaping public safety andpolicing today.
Hopefully, if you're listening,hopefully you're curious about
the human behind the hero, andthese are true heroes.
Hopefully you're curious aboutthe human behind the hero, and
(00:47):
these are true heroes and topicsthat are driving policing in
the United States.
This is kind of your hopefullyyour front row seat, I should
say.
So let's roll, let's getstarted.
I should say that this podcastis sponsored by PepperBall,
where I have the honor to serveas the chief executive officer.
Pepperball creates non-lethalalternatives to guns that police
(01:08):
use to keep themselves and thepublic they serve safe.
So today we're joined by adeputy director of public safety
of the Cottage Grove PoliceDepartment, Brad Petersen, and
Brad has been on the force manyyears.
We'll talk about that.
Cottage Grove is based inMinnesota, outside of
(01:32):
Minneapolis.
It's 50 or 49 sworn officers.
Brad, thanks for taking thetime today.
The first question I'll ask youis 50 officers I think you said
50,000 citizens you served.
This feels like kind of youknow the ultimate middle of the
(01:55):
road, kind of you know MayberryRFD in kind of present day.
This is kind of the.
This is a very typical policeagency in the United States,
would you say.
Brad Petersen (02:05):
Yeah, I would say it's a very average.
If you take a cross section ofthe United States, it's not too
small, it's not too big, it'snot inner city, it's not rural
very average.
So we get a little bit ofeverything, but it's not too
busy and close to the metro, butnot inner city either.
(02:28):
So get a good, good mix andit's very average.
Bob Plaschke (02:34):
Well, you know, I think that's you know what's
interesting.
I try to describe policing tomy friends in the United States.
You know, I tell them there's18,000 agencies.
You know I tell them there's18,000 agencies and you know
from all they know is watching,you know, kind of LAPD or
Chicago PD or Blue Bloods, andyou know there aren't any shows,
frankly, for the what isabsolutely the vast majority of
(02:57):
police agencies of the 18,000,probably 16,000 agencies look
like yours, right, they're inthe suburbs, they're taking care
of you know they have theirshare of crime.
It's not particularlyoverwhelming and it's and it's,
but it's.
What police do every day iskeep people in communities like
(03:18):
Cottage Grove safe.
You know what kind of policing,what, what's typically the, the
, what, what do your officersface on a kind of a day-to-day
basis?
What, what do they do?
Um, you know again, differentthan if you were in the downtown
streets of uh, of New York city.
Brad Petersen (03:38):
So fortunately, our officers don't spend most of
their shift being reactive innature, meaning that they're not
responding to calls fromdispatch or crimes in progress.
The average officer on anaverage day might respond to
five to ten calls from dispatch.
Of course there's days that areslower, some days are busier,
(04:01):
but that would be an averagecall load for an officer is
about five to 10 calls per day.
The rest of their shift isspent engaging with the
community and being veryproactive in nature, trying to
prevent crime and establishrelationships in the community
and tending to the needs of ourbusiness districts, doing
proactive patrols inneighborhoods, checking out our
(04:24):
parks, all that kind of stuff tobe present and visible in the
community, engaging with ourcitizens.
And of course there's someadministrative time built in for
writing reports and doing sometrainings and other
administrative tasks.
Bob Plaschke (04:42):
But that's kind of what a typical day looks like
for us other administrativetasks, but that's kind of what a
typical day looks like for us.
You know, we talk a lot abouton this podcast.
We talk a lot about mentalhealth and some of the
challenges that police officersface and you know, I think it's
easy for those who listen tovisualize what someone at NYPD
(05:03):
might deal with.
Right, because they're getting,as you said, there are a lot of
reactive calls they're runninginto danger, that they know that
they're running into danger.
In that context, that's notwhat your officers face.
Yet I would suggest that themental health challenges that
(05:25):
your officers face are just assignificant as what somebody on
LAPD would deal with.
They're just different.
This is, by the way, for folkslistening, this is police week.
This is a week that the UnitedStates takes out to honor the
police force and policing in theUnited States.
(05:45):
It's a big deal and a lot ofthe discussions in Washington
this week are around mentalillness and a mental challenge
and mental health for policing.
So this topic is near and dearto my heart and I know tears.
Director Peterson, directorPeterson.
(06:11):
So in that context, you know,walk me through what in kind of
an average USA police forcewhich you guys are what kind of
mental health challenges do youguys face and does your officers
?
I'm not sure that it's a mentalhealth challenge, but one of
our challenges that we face iscombating complacency.
Because our community is sosafe, because we don't spend
(06:32):
most of our day responding tocrimes in progress, it's easy to
get lulled into a sense ofcomplacency and false security,
where we drop our guard and failto recognize the potential
dangers that we're encounteringand that can be very dangerous
for our officers, bothphysically and mentally.
(06:53):
Right, you could walk into asituation not mentally prepared
and it has tragic outcomes andthat can be shocking to your
mental health as well as yourphysical health.
So we work very hard to keepour officers situationally aware
(07:15):
and vigilant and we give theman incredible amount of training
to stay on top of their game,of training to stay on top of
their game so that they don'tget complacent and can protect
their safety as well as thesafety of the citizens.
So that's one aspect of it.
The other thing that we face isall of the same mental health
(07:40):
challenges that every policeofficer everywhere in the
country faces.
We're all human.
We have marital issues, we havesubstance abuse issues, we have
the cumulative stress of thejob itself, financial issues,
you name it.
Everything that averageAmericans face we face and
(08:02):
sometimes we face, and sometimes, especially in the past, there
was a stigma that preventedofficers from seeking mental
health help and so we justgutted that stress and it built
up and it came out in not greatways, right Bubbles to the
(08:25):
surface and if it's not dealtwith then it can result in
self-harm and self-destructivebehaviors and can end careers,
things of that nature.
So one of the things that we dois we try to eliminate those
stigmas or any barriers toseeking help.
So we've done a lot of mentalhealth awareness training,
(08:46):
officer wellness awarenesstrainings, education, and really
changed our culture so that ourofficers recognize signs and
symptoms in each other and wecan help each other out and at
least recognize it in ourselvesand seek help when we need it.
(09:09):
You know, what's interesting is this notion of
helping your officers stayvigilant and to stay aware,
right, not get lulled.
And what an interestingpsychological challenge, right?
As humans, we don't want tofeel under stress, right?
(09:32):
We prefer to be, you know, feelsafe.
Safe thing for your officers isto be, is to kind of, you know,
psychologically fall into apattern of of feeling safe,
because, in effect, then they'recaught off guard and then
that's when probably bad thingshappen.
(09:53):
So you, you, you're,effectively, you're asking them
to stay, um, to, in effect, stayin a higher degree of tension
and a higher degree of stressproactively to keep them in
their in in a higher degree oftension and a higher degree of
stress proactively to keep themand their citizens safe.
Brad Petersen (10:09):
In a sense, yes, but we need to find that balance
right.
We don't want them hyper awareor being over vigilant and
overreacting to a situation thatdoesn't work that high level of
stress or reaction but they doneed to maintain a minimal
amount of awareness andvigilance and be able to respond
(10:32):
appropriately to the threats.
The key is reading thesituation for what it is and
responding reasonably to thatsituation.
Bob Plaschke (10:44):
Well, you know, and what a tough balance to find
, right.
I mean, to your point, when youpull a car over you, you want
to get out and and uh, and feellike you're safe.
But to your point, you don't.
You also don't want to besurprised by what might be
inside and what might that thatdriver might, might present to
you.
So you have to, and, to yourpoint, you don't want to
(11:05):
overreact to someone who maybeis having a bad day.
That's such a hard balance tofind.
Brad Petersen (11:22):
And how do you train to help officers find that
balance?
Part of it is and giving themenough repetitions in training
to develop confidence, because Ifeel like when our officers are
confident in their abilitiesthey're less likely to react out
(11:44):
of fear.
So I want them to feelconfident in their skills,
knowing that they can handle anysituation.
Feel confident in their skills,knowing that they can handle
any situation.
They have the proper skills,policies, techniques, tools to
deal with any situation.
The other part is inoculatingthem, to stress, in the training
environment.
We don't want to end up incondition black because we're
(12:06):
overwhelmed by a situation.
I want them to experience thesesituations in the training
environment and I want them tomake those mistakes in the
training environment and not inthe real world.
Bob Plaschke (12:20):
You know, it's such a to your point, it's such
a fine balance to find, right Tobe aware enough and attuned not
to be overly aware.
And then to your point.
You know, you, you know thepolice officers are brothers,
sisters, husbands, wives,mothers, fathers, and they bring
(12:40):
a host.
They have a whole set ofpersonal issues of which, for
them, they have to deal with,but they can't really ever have
a bad day, right?
I mean?
I mean, you know I can have abad day in my job and I can
apologize to my team afterwards.
Having a bad day as an officer,you can't, I mean you can't.
You know there's some pretty,you know significant
(13:03):
consequences of having a bad dayin front of a public.
Brad Petersen (13:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the expectations thatare placed upon our police
officers are unreasonable, butit is what it is.
We're expected to be perfectevery day.
That's not reality.
I know it, you know it.
But we need to give ourofficers the support and tools
(13:29):
to help them be as perfect asthey humanly can be on each and
every day.
Bob Plaschke (13:35):
Yeah, you know and you think about it it's.
You know I'm biased, we servePepperball, serves police
agencies across the country andthey're our customers.
But I think it is a bit unfairright that if you're not perfect
you've failed, and you know, ifyou have a sick child at home
(13:59):
that you still have to present aperfect face to the public.
It's a high bar to ask and toask of kind of a perfect
execution and to your point,it's not realistic and so
(14:19):
there's no question there.
It's just kind of a statement,the I think the other thing that
and maybe you tell me you'vebeen on the force now, you've
been in on in policing for 20years.
Is that right?
Brad Petersen (14:31):
Yeah, about 20, going up on 22 years.
Bob Plaschke (14:34):
I mean, has the nature of the job changed in
that 20 years?
Has it gotten tougher or?
Brad Petersen (14:43):
maybe different.
It's certainly changed.
It's changed in a lot of ways.
It's changed in some ways forthe betterment of the profession
.
In other ways, I think, it'sbecome harder.
So I think now some of thethings that we're doing better
are being more transparent, moreaccountable, being more
(15:06):
professional, providing bettertraining and resources to our
officers.
Awareness on a host ofdifferent issues has increased,
but I think the expectationsplaced upon police officers and
departments, along with thescrutiny and lack of support in
(15:36):
some areas has really made itchallenging.
Bob Plaschke (15:37):
You know it's, um, I was interviewing a sheriff
the other day and, um, he said,like he goes in the old days,
what he said he goes, um, I'dask you, I'd tell you and then
I'd make you.
And you know it was relativelysimple and very few times did I
have to do it more than ask ortell.
And he said now it's I and youknow, and there was very limited
(16:04):
accountability for making youdo something, for making you do
something and to your point.
That's where policing, you know, has gotten has had some, some
challenges in the past wherepolice officers making folks
comply in a way that was maybeunnecessarily rough or
unnecessarily aggressive.
(16:24):
He said, you know, now it's Ihave to ask you, I have to ask
you again, I have to ask you athird time.
You know it's a much moredifficult challenge because you
know the combination of changesin society, changing in policing
, changing.
You know some bad, you knowsome things that have happened
in the past.
The net of it is it's a muchharder environment to do our
(16:48):
work.
So that was thing one, and thenthing two is that we're asked
to address a lot wider range ofchallenges.
Before it was, you know, I'mtrying to respond to a crime.
Now I'm responding to mentalillness, I'm responding to
domestic disputes, I'mresponding to homelessness a
series of challenges that youknow that I wasn't trained for
(17:09):
when I first came up on theforce.
Brad Petersen (17:13):
Are those two fair comments?
They are, and I would even sayit's more challenging and
complicated than how you statedit.
Your analogy that we used tofollow the principle of ask,
tell, make, but now we have toask, ask, ask, ask, ask again
(17:38):
before we make.
It's even more complicated thanthat because in some situations
it might be appropriate to askfour, five, ten, twenty times
and spend hours trying tode-escalate a situation to avoid
a use of force encounter.
But in other situations itmight be completely unreasonable
to ask at all.
I should immediately jump intomake mode.
(18:00):
Right when there are immediatedangers to the community or my
fellow officers or myself, Imight skip the ask stage.
And so for new officers cominginto this profession to try and
figure that out, it's not blackand white, it's all shades of
gray and it's very difficult tofigure out.
Well, the last call, you justtold me I need to spend more
(18:25):
time de-escalating.
And now this call, you'retelling me that I should have
used force quicker.
It's a very difficult skill tolearn for new officers.
Bob Plaschke (18:39):
And I think the range of topics that they have
to engage in are now much wider,right?
I mean, where before youprobably, you know, maybe when
you came up with the force,homelessness and mental illness
was not as much of an issue.
Now it's probably more.
Maybe it's a significantminority of what you guys see.
Brad Petersen (18:58):
Yeah, we're being asked to address all of the
gaps in social services, inhealth care, in homelessness,
you name it.
We're the stopgap for all of it.
Now to the point that we have aspecial team, even in cottage
(19:26):
grove, that that is specificallygeared towards and their sole
purpose is to deal with thoseissues mental health, substance
abuse, homelessness.
They don't answer calls fromfrom dispatch.
They practically go out, engagein those vulnerable populations
and try and mitigate theirimpact on the community and
mitigate the call load on ourpatrol officers.
Bob Plaschke (19:54):
And you know, and there you say, that's where I
see the you know sun shiningthrough the clouds is that
policing, you know, policingagencies which have historically
never been overfunded but havebeen challenged.
There You're creatively tryingto adjust, right?
You're not?
You're not putting your handsup and saying I can't do it.
You're like you know, let's,let's create a special team that
(20:17):
goes out and proactively triesto engage these challenged
populations and try to get outahead of these problems.
And I think that's, you know,that's the positive out of this
is that your policing isevolving to address these new
challenges.
Brad Petersen (20:34):
For sure, in some areas faster than others, but
I'm proud of the fact thatCottage Grove has been very
progressive and forward thinkingand we look around at other
communities and other parts ofthe country to see what
challenges they're facing andhow they're dealing with it.
And we're very quick to adaptand luckily we have a supportive
(20:58):
community and leadership herethat funds us, supports us and
allows us to stay ahead of thereform curve.
Bob Plaschke (21:10):
You know and give me a sense of you know.
Circling back to mental healthand mental wellness, so to speak
.
I cite, and I'm going tocontinue to do this on every
podcast the average Americanwill experience somewhere
between four to seven traumaticincidents in their life,
(21:31):
traumatic being loss of asibling or a parent or a child,
or a divorce, something that isemotionally a significant injury
, or a car accident.
An average police officer overa 20-year career will experience
(21:52):
somewhere between 200 to 400 ofthose incidents.
No-transcript.
(22:26):
How many is it?
Do you take time off?
Do you put people in classrooms?
Is it individual counseling?
What's the?
What's the program that you'vecreated at Cottage Grove for
mental health and wellness?
Brad Petersen (22:44):
health and wellness.
So we've created a reallycomprehensive and holistic
wellness program that reallyaddresses all eight dimensions
of wellness.
But in regards specifically tomental health, we've done a lot
of mental health awarenesstraining and education.
When there are criticalincidents, we do critical
incident debriefings.
We provide free counseling toour officers and their immediate
(23:10):
family Annually.
We do mental health check-ins.
We have a peer support team, wehave a canine therapy, we have
a chaplain program, a veryrobust mental health program
here.
So again, trying to get aheadof potential problems, address
the fact that these traumas arereal, they're unavoidable,
(23:31):
healthy and successful in thiscareer up until the point of
retirement and beyond.
Bob Plaschke (23:48):
You know, it's what they said the leading cause
of death for retired policeofficers is suicide and that
just kind of brings home thecumulative effect of this kind
of stress.
The cumulative effect of thiskind of stress, and I should say
(24:11):
, to be specific, the suiciderates amongst police officers,
retired police officers, istwice the national average.
So I can't say it's the leadingcause of death, but I can say
that suicide is a verysignificant challenge for police
officers.
You know, what's interesting tome is, you know you talk about
canine therapy and chaplainsupport and peer group.
These are investments that wedon't make in the private sector
(24:34):
.
You know, I don't have a caninetherapy for people at Pepperball
.
Maybe I should a pepper ball,maybe I should, but you know,
but it makes perfect sense to mebecause the, the, the, the to
have something go wrong in a, ina policing context, is, you
know, the, the, the risk of, ofand the consequence of something
(24:56):
going wrong is so much moresignificant.
How do you deal with that as as, as the?
You know you deal with that asthe number two guy in your
organization.
It must weigh heavily on yourmind the responsibility of
ensuring that the 49 folksunderneath you are in a good
(25:21):
position to do their work andthat if something goes wrong, it
could go wrong very badly.
I mean, is that stress for youpersonally, just to kind of deal
with?
Brad Petersen (25:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think about it every day.
I think about it before I go tobed every night, and the only
reason I can lay my head on thepillow and sleep every night is
because I know in my heart thatI'm giving my officers the best
training resources, support,stack all the odds that I
(25:55):
possibly can in their favor todo their job well, serve the
community well, and that myofficers themselves are going to
be well.
Obviously, we all have limitedbudgets and multiple competing
(26:18):
priorities for our limitedbudgets, et cetera, but I know
that I'm doing everything Ipossibly can for them.
Sure, there are things that I'mstill striving to achieve, that
are still on my checklist, thatI'm working towards, but I know
that we're giving themeverything we possibly can in
this moment to do their jobswell and be happy and healthy.
Bob Plaschke (26:39):
You know I've got two questions.
The second to last question isI always ask the folks that are
on this podcast if there was onething that you'd like to tell
people that are not in theprofession, that haven't worn a
badge.
Tell them about the profession.
Profession, you know somethingthat you know, just that they
(27:02):
may not be aware of or thinkabout.
What's the?
Brad Petersen (27:12):
one thing that you'd like them to take away
about policing and policeofficers.
It's a great question.
I actually never thought aboutthat before, so you kind of put
me on the spot, I guess I wouldsay, acknowledging the fact that
officers are humans and we'renot perfect.
(27:36):
But in most cases we have thebest intentions and we're trying
to do the best we can in asituation and, as long as we're
doing it honestly, within thebest of our ability and
resources, a little bit of graceand forgiveness would be
awesome.
Bob Plaschke (27:56):
Yeah, I think that's right.
A little bit of empathy in thatcontext.
The word grace you try to giveit to yourself, you try to give
it to your people in anyorganization and particularly in
policing.
In that context, given what'sat stake and given what we're
asking police officers to do,all right, director Peterson.
(28:19):
The last question is we like tomake a very small honorarium in
your name to a charity of yourchoice.
What's the charity that we canmake a small donation for?
Thanking you for taking thetime on the podcast today.
Brad Petersen (28:33):
Well, first, thank you for giving me this
opportunity to speak out on theOffice of Wellness topic.
Secondly, thank you for thedonation On the Office of
Wellness topic.
Secondly, thank you for thedonation and I would love for
that donation to go to the localBeyond the Yellow Ribbon
organization, which supports ourveterans and military families
(28:54):
here in our community.
Bob Plaschke (28:57):
Oh, so it's called .
Beyond the Yellow Ribbon Isthat a national organization?
Brad Petersen (29:01):
It's for sure, statewide.
Not sure if it's national, butit's called Beyond the Yellow
Ribbon.
So just about each communityhere in Minnesota has a yellow
ribbon organization thatsupports their military
community.
Bob Plaschke (29:15):
What is the song?
Tie a yellow ribbon around theold oak tree.
For those who don't rememberwhat the yellow ribbon is, it's
a.
I think it was after the Iraqwar that we did that.
(29:35):
That was that this became a bigthing where you would tie a
yellow ribbon when, yeah, firstgo for, first go for, and it was
a, a way to acknowledge youknow someone that was overseas
and kind of you would.
You would tie the ribbon aroundthe tree and wait for them to
come back.
So for folks that don't knowwhat that that is, for the
(29:58):
younger folks.
Thank you, director Peterson.
We appreciate the time and and,and importantly, the commitment
to your profession and thecommitment to your people, to
your officers, and we thank you.
Thank you for taking the timewith us.
So you know, folks, as I try toreflect on Director Peterson's
(30:27):
comments.
You know, director Peterson'scomments.
You know it's easy for me tointerview folks you know from
the NYPD and talk about thechallenges they face, because we
can all visualize it, you know,and we can empathize to some
degree with having to respond toconstant crime and run into
(30:49):
danger.
Having to respond to constantcrime and run into danger, I
think what is harder toempathize with, but as equally
important, is what the averagepolice agency in the United
States and the average officersdeal with, and that is living in
areas that are not as muchcrime and where the officers are
(31:16):
more kind of proactive in theirpolicing versus reactive.
And yet they face different butsimilar challenges from a
mental health perspective.
Different but similarchallenges from a mental health
perspective.
For them, it's how to stayaware and how to be ready for
and how to be vigilant, not tobe overly aggressive, not to
(31:40):
look for trouble, but to makesure that if trouble
unexpectedly shows up which itwill once a year that they're
ready and that they can respond.
And you think about howdifficult that challenge is, um,
and and how you have to do itevery day and that every day
could be that.
That day, um, and you know thatyour child is sick that day, or
(32:03):
that you had a fight with yourwife or you have some financial
challenges.
How do you not bring that intothat day and how do you make
sure that doesn't turn into anescalation or something that
goes wrong that affects you andyour career for the rest of your
life.
And I think that's Deputy ChiefPetersen said.
(32:27):
To give these officers grace,they're not perfect, they're
just brothers, sisters.
To give these officers grace,they're not perfect, they're
just.
They're brothers, sisters,fathers, mothers, um sons and
daughters.
That and they'll, they'll havebad days, and yet we ask them to
protect us, we ask them to gointo danger for us.
We have to give them the graceto know that they're not perfect
, um, and we have to, we have tobe empathetic to what they're
(32:50):
going through, whether it be,you know, in the downtown
streets of Chicago or in CottageGrove Minnesota.
So, um, uh, this is again PoliceWeek.
It's the chance for us to toremember and respect the
policing over a million um swornofficers in the United States.
Remember the, the more than 350plus officers that were killed
(33:12):
in the line of duty last year,and remember how brave and truly
wonderful this industry is andthese group of folks are.
So my name is Bob Plaschke.
I am the CEO of PepperBall.
This is First Response, a lookbehind the badge.
Thank you for taking the timeand we'll see you on the next go
(33:38):
around.
Be safe out there.
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The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.