When retired Lieutenant Davin Cole reveals that police officers experience three to five traumatic events every month—the equivalent of what most civilians face in an entire lifetime—you begin to understand the monumental mental health challenges behind the badge.
Through raw honesty, Lt. Cole shares his 31-year journey in law enforcement that culminated in addiction, depression, and a desperate act that ended his career. Despite two officer-involved shootings and countless traumatic scenes, it was an injury during canine training that set him on a path of prescription opioid dependency and undiagnosed complex PTSD. His story represents a startling reality: approximately 40% of officers develop substance abuse disorders, while suicide rates soar at four times the national average.
What makes this conversation particularly illuminating is Lt. Cole's insight into why people choose careers in public safety. Many first responders, he observes, come from backgrounds of childhood trauma, unconsciously driven to become protectors after feeling unprotected themselves. This creates a dangerous cycle where those already carrying personal trauma are continuously exposed to new traumatic events without adequate processing time or support.
The podcast explores emerging best practices for departments, including confidential mental health access, regular debriefing sessions for seemingly routine traumatic exposures, and early intervention. Lt. Cole emphasizes that the old "suck it up" culture is slowly giving way to recognition that mental wellness requires the same attention as physical fitness and tactical training.
Whether you work in public safety or simply interact with first responders, this conversation will transform your understanding of what it means to wear the badge. Next time you encounter a police officer, remember they may have just witnessed something most of us will experience only a handful of times in our entire lives. Follow Lt. Cole's work at DavinCole.com or connect with him on LinkedIn for more resources on first responder mental health.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
The front line of policing is loud, but the voices
behind it, you know they're alot louder and, I think, frankly
, a lot more interesting.
Hi, I'm Bob Plaschke and thisis First Response.
This is the number one podcastthat takes you behind the badge
and uncovers real stories andexperiences of first responders
from all walks of life and thetopics that shape public safety
(00:26):
today.
If you're curious about the guyor the gal behind the hero and
they are indeed truly heroes andthe topics that they care about
, take a listen.
This is kind of your front rowseat to hearing some of the
really interesting voices outthere and, more importantly, the
heroes.
This podcast is sponsored byPepperBall, where I have the
honor to serve as CEO.
(00:47):
PepperBall creates unlethalalternatives to guns, at least
used to keep themselves and thepublic safe.
So today I'm really honored tobe joined by retired Lieutenant
Davin Cole, and Davin spent 31years serving the public here
(01:10):
where I live in NorthernCalifornia, at the San Francisco
Sheriff and then, I think, 28years with the San Francisco
Police Department, and served anumber of roles there, including
helping homeless and those withmental challenges, which is,
you know, as people would knowin San Francisco, or at least a
(01:31):
tribute to San Francisco is amajor challenge for policing
country.
Talking about mental illnessand mental health, actually and
it's not about, you know, thefolks on the street.
(01:52):
He's happy to do that.
He talks about mentalchallenges and the mental health
almost you almost could saycrisis or mental health
significant challenges thatpolice officers face and the
support they need both day today and kind of the external
support they need to managethrough the challenges they face
.
Davin was telling me just beforewe started that he just got
(02:15):
back from Tulsa, Oklahoma, wherehe did a speech, and you, I
think Davin, were telling methat you regularly walk up to
police officers and you engagethem in discussions.
And what do you say?
What do you ask them?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You know, I like to just walk up.
I think if you know anybody inthe law enforcement community,
they will tell you that youcould go anywhere in the country
and walk up to any policeofficer and introduce yourself
as a current or retired policeofficer and you'll immediately
be accepted as a friend, if youwill.
And so I approach it in thatrespect.
As you know, I'm your friendand the first question I like to
(02:52):
ask them may seem a little oddto them at first is you know, do
you have a peer support programin your agency?
And what does that look like?
Usually a little quizzical,look.
It's kind of an odd question tostart a conversation with Um.
But once they tell me you knowI get a variety of answers, and
once they kind of give me thatanswer, I follow up with my
(03:14):
personal story and why I havesuch a strong uh passion in
ensuring that police officersand all our first responders are
getting the proper peer supportand mental health programs in
place that they really shouldhave and that we're still
lacking quite a bit in thiscountry.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Before we get to your personal story and Davin's had
a chance to share it with me andit is compelling and it makes
him incredibly credible toprovide the kind of consultative
support and the counseling andthe topics that he gives talks
on across the country.
But before we get there, whatis you know?
(03:55):
You hear the term peer-to-peersupport.
What does that actually mean?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Well, I think for most people it starts off as a
peer support program is having,generally, members from your own
department receive some extratraining to just be an ear, to
be a shoulder, to be someonethat you know when you need to
talk about something you canrely on, someone who knows where
(04:23):
you've been, who's walked thatsame path and who's going to
have a better understanding ofwhat struggles you might be
having and, you know, make thatconversation easier.
It's difficult to have thesetype of conversations with
someone who hasn't really walkedin our shoes, and so having a
peer support program ensuresthat you know it's going to be
somebody from whether it's youragency or another agency, but
(04:45):
somebody that's walked your path, who's been through the same
experiences as you and has had,you know, that extra training to
be able to listen effectivelyfor you.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So when you talk about walking on the walking the
same path, having the sameexperiences you know, and you
think about it in the context ofyou know, being an ear to
listen, my assumption which Iwould assume folks listening
would assume that thoseexperiences you know are the
more on the negative than thepositive side.
You know Davin was sharing somestatistics with me before,
(05:18):
which I'll let you do now.
Davin, in terms of you know howmany negative experiences
police officers face, which it'shumbling, but please, why don't
you share those statistics withour folks?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, it was even a statistic that kind of didn't
really catch me off guard, butit really even added more
perspective to what my messagingis.
And we talk about being exposedto critical incidents and on
average, the average citizenwill experience four or five
traumatic events in their life,and that could be anything from
(05:54):
a sudden death in the family toa bad car accident, something
like that.
But for police officers andother first responders we
average three to five a month.
So you put that intoperspective.
You know, you look at a 30-yearcareer, 12 months a year.
You know, and you start gettinginto the 300 to 400 range of
(06:16):
exposure to critical incidents.
And these are not just yours,not just the incidents that
you're involved in, but you'realso exposed to your victims
incident.
You're exposed to yourwitnesses.
You're exposed to even thesuspects.
You know you have to absorbthat too.
(06:38):
You know they're in the midstof a traumatic event and you
don't even have time to be partof the process.
You just have to go there anddo your job.
And so you're getting exposedto this and it's layer after
layer after layer of traumaticevents and it builds up over
time and we are just nowlearning what these long term
(07:00):
effects have on first respondersand on police officers.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
These long-term effects have on first responders
and on police officers.
And you know you think aboutthat.
Three, you know, effectivelythe equivalent of three car
accidents a month, or three, toyour point, sudden death or, I
would imagine, a divorce orgetting fired would be examples
of that kind of trauma and, toyour point, it cumulatively
(07:25):
builds up.
And when I talk to, obviously,a lot of firefighters on that
side of the world, what they seein terms of dealing with
accidents and the kind ofcarnage they have to deal with,
it's horrific on both sides.
I think it's, frankly, I dothink it's a bit worse on the
(07:48):
police side because you'reseeing, unfortunately, you're
seeing a lot of the worst ofhumanity, right.
You're seeing people who eitherare going through things that
nobody should go through abuse,victims of crime, rape, or
victims of crime, rape and thenyou're seeing people who
perpetrated which you know, Iwould imagine it just to be able
.
It must be horrific just to seethat again and again and again.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It is, I mean, and it's hard on you and, like I
said, you don't really get toprocess it.
You're there to do a job, youknow.
It's kind of like an oldepisode of you or Dragnet.
Just the facts, ma'am.
I'm just here to do my job andas much as you have empathy for
them, you don't really have timeto sit there and be empathetic.
(08:34):
You have a job to do and youthink about it.
For police officers, when do weget to go to a scene where
somebody's happy to see us?
We're there, right, we're.
We're there because somethinghappened to you.
You're the victim of a crime.
We're we're there because youwere speeding it and now we have
(08:55):
to do our job and pull you over, and now we have to write you a
ticket.
You know, we're not therebecause you're celebrating a
wedding.
We're not there because you'rehaving a newborn event in your
life.
We're only there for the badtimes, and you know that builds
up on me too.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
You know, and I and I , it's I, I I've now become a
bit of a bore at my you know, atmy social events, because
people ask me what I do and Idescribe it.
And then you know it's and mostpeople don't have a lot of
experience with police andpolice officers to your point
that it's, it's.
It's the person that you, youhope that you never have to call
right, or it's the person thatyou hope never pulls you over.
(09:33):
And I try to explain.
I've said you know, look, thisis, you know, they're brothers,
mothers, fathers, sons,daughters.
They're just, you know, they'rejust, you know, no different
than you and they've picked aprofession that to serve.
And they picked a professionbut in the process of serving to
(09:55):
your point, no one is everhappy to see them.
In that context, it's not theparticularly it is, it is a
really tough job.
It's not the particularly it is, it is a really tough job.
So so you said that you, you,you, when you pull officers
aside and talk about peer topeer support and whether they
have it, then you, you give thema synopsis of your story.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
So give us that.
What is that?
Give that synopsis.
Yeah, so, as you said, 30, 31years altogether in law
enforcement.
I'm involved in twoofficer-involved shootings.
As you pointed out, we go to alot of horrific crime scenes,
which I did.
We get injured a lot, get a lotof bumps and bruises in law
(10:40):
enforcement.
In my particular case, I was acanine trainer for 10 years and
a canine handler for 15.
And during a training scenarioI was pretty severely bit by one
of the dogs, ended up with atthe time what they thought was
going to be permanent nervedamage.
I was at chronic pain forseveral years before they're
able to go in and perform asurgery and repair the impinged
(11:04):
nerve.
But because of that chronicpain I was prescribed high doses
of opioid pain medication.
At the time I didn't know I wassuffering with mental health
issues, but I did develop anaddiction to these prescription
pain meds and, despite the factthat they were able to go in
there and, as I said, repair thenerve damage and remove that
(11:27):
pain, my addiction led me tocontinue to seek out pain
medications through my doctorsand from the time of the injury
until the end of my career itwas 10 years.
It was a solid seven years of anaddiction to the pain meds, on
top of that alcohol.
And again I didn't understandwhere this addiction was coming
from.
I was, and still am, in areally great marriage.
(11:50):
I have a wonderful wife who'sbeen by my side this whole time.
I was doing well in my career.
I'd moved up the ranks, uh, fromSergeant and then Lieutenant,
acting Lieutenant for threeyears.
Uh was next up for a permanentpromotion to Lieutenant, was
going to stick around forcaptain, um, but I was spiraling
out of control.
You know I had severedepression, um, as I found out
(12:13):
later, I had a severe case ofcomplex post-traumatic stress
disorder and the addictioneventually led me to rob a
pharmacy for payments, whichresulted in my arrest as soon as
I exited the pharmacy and fromthere, obviously I had to retire
.
My department understood that Iwas suffering with mental
health and, you know, allowed meto retire.
(12:34):
But then I had to deal with thecriminal consequences and just
the overall consequencesemotionally, civilly, everything
and had to process through that, ended up going to jail for six
months, locked in my cell allday because of my status as a
former police officer.
Officer was 30 minutes out a day.
That was.
It did that for six months butsince then have focused my time
(12:59):
on sharing my story because Iknow addiction addiction rate in
law enforcement is about 40percent.
Suicide rates and I was verysuicidal prior to my arrest it
was about four times thenational average.
So I know this is a seriousissue amongst police officers
and first responders and I sharemy story because I want people
(13:21):
to know they're not alone intheir struggles and that it's
okay to struggle and thatthere's help and that you can
survive and you can get throughthis and with the right help you
could be back to a functioninghuman being again.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Well, I appreciate you telling and you and I have
already had a discussion, butsharing with the folks that are
listening here, it is asombering story.
It is a sombering story, butdid you say that 40% of police
officers have an addiction ofsome type?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yes, that's.
The current statistics is about40% of officers have some form
of substance use disorder oranother type of addiction.
We have pornography, we haveshopping addiction.
Then there's other justmaladaptive behaviors that they
get into, other risky behaviorsHaving multiple affairs if
they're in a marriage or otherrelationship, engaging in
(14:21):
high-risk sports or not evensports, just high-risk
activities.
They get in a motorcycle thenext thing, you know.
I've talked to guys that theywould routinely go 100 and 110
miles an hour on theirmotorcycle, secretly wishing
they would crash and die, youknow, as part of their struggles
.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
And you know, and so I don't know what the statistic
is for the general population.
I assume 40% is much.
That's a high number comparedto what the general population I
assume 40% is is it's much?
That's that's a high numbercompared to what?
Um, what the general population?
Certainly I, I have.
I have had many people talk,come on this, this podcast, and
talk about suicide rates and, toyour point, four times the
national average, um, when youlook back, um, um, could you
(15:08):
have, you probably could haveseen the.
I mean, looking back, could youhave seen the early signs of,
of, when it was starting to kindof build and you, you didn't
have a, a weight event Was that,was that kind of?
You know, years before the, the, the incident with the, with
the canine, or you know, couldyou, when you look backwards,
(15:29):
can you start to see the trend?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I can.
You know, I look back to lookback to some of the simple
things sleeping issues I wouldhave insomnia, three, four days
of not sleeping.
I would have, in a way, angermanagement issues, but mainly
for work.
I hated everything about work.
I hated my bosses, I hatedother cops, I hated the
citizenry.
I just was always angry aboutwork.
(15:51):
I hated my bosses, I hatedother cops, I hated the
citizenry.
I just was, you know, alwaysangry about something.
A new policy would just set meoff on like this crazy rant of a
simple change in policy, youknow.
And so I've been able to lookback and go, wow, yeah, those
were the early stages of signsof struggling mentally.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I always try to articulate to folks,
You know they, they talk about,you know, getting pulled over
and the police officer was a bitrude and I'm like you know you
have no idea what he or she mayhave just come from, right and
and you have no idea whatthey've been through.
But you know, you know again, Ilove that I not love is not the
right word for it but thestatistic of three to four
(16:35):
traumas a month, you know, um it, it.
It takes years to processtrauma, not not days.
And so you're, you're just acumulative, um, you know,
cumulative ball of emotion, um,and in that context, tell me
what leading agencies you know,when you go out and talk about
(16:57):
what they should do and whatleading agencies are doing.
How now do agencies try to putprograms in place to try to let
officers kind of grieve throughthat or at least process,
because it's still's still.
I mean, if you think how muchtime it would take to get over a
car accident, you can't do itin an hour, right?
I mean, that's the, that's theproblem.
(17:18):
And, to your point, you're backon the job.
It's not like people give yousix weeks off for every incident
.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
You would never work right, yeah, the whole force
would be at home, you knowexactly.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So how does it?
How does it?
How can it work?
I mean, how?
What is it?
Is it?
What is the best practices,even still abandoned.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
No, I mean, I think that the best, the true best
practices are starting and whenyou look at that, what you're
seeing is, first off, unlimitedaccess to mental health care.
So your the department'sinsurance, your personal
insurance, something is coveringit, you're not out of pocket
and you have access to it.
(17:59):
Confidential access.
That's probably the number onefear that police officers have
is that they're seeking helpisn't going to be confidential,
that they're seeking help isn'tgoing to be confidential.
So, confidential assistance,unlimited access, in-house, a
better processing.
We talk about having a criticalincident debrief and we will
(18:23):
debrief the major criticalincidents.
Unfortunately, today, the LAsheriffs have lost three
deputies to an explosion.
Right, they will have criticalincident debriefs.
It's a major incident.
What I advocate for and whatwe're starting to see is just
debriefing everyday BS.
(18:43):
You know, like you said, we'rebeing exposed to these other
traumatic events and we're notdebriefing those because it's
part of the job, right?
You, you're expected to go outto a car accident where somebody
has lost their life.
You're expected to go to ascene where maybe a child has
died or or horrific rape, as yousaid, but we don't debrief
(19:04):
those because they don'tnormally fit into the trigger
for for starting a debriefingprocess.
What we're seeing now is thatthat is starting to happen on a
regular basis.
Like I said, it's rare.
It's still very rare, but whenyou talk about best practices,
(19:27):
we are starting to do that andwe're having more open
conversations.
It's no more, suck it upcupcake.
It's no more.
Hey, this is the job you signedup for.
If you can't handle this, youneed a new career.
We're now starting to acceptthat.
Hey, yes, this job takes a tollon us mentally and we need to
have those conversations and weneed to start them early.
(19:47):
We need to start them in theacademy and we need to continue
these conversations outthroughout your career.
And we're seeing more and moreof that.
I'm even seeing where, as partof your annual review, they want
you to go talk to a therapistyou know, just to show up.
You don't even have to talk.
They just want to know hey,here's your resources, here's a
list of therapists as part ofyour annual review.
(20:08):
We just want you to have a talkwith this person.
We want to make sure you'regetting the proper care.
We want you to go see yourdoctor once a year and make sure
, physically, you're doing well,but we want to see the same
thing with the therapist.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Well, and I think, and probably nine out of 10
folks that I bring on thepodcast, we, the conversation,
eventually turns to this topic,which is you know, how do you in
the old days it was give youthe equipment.
It then turned into giving youthe equipment and make sure
you're in shape right and makesure you have the exercise kind
(20:45):
of for your body.
And then now to your point.
It's the mind, the mind and thespirit and the soul.
And you know, and all, all ofthose, you have to have the
right equipment, you have tohave the right training, but you
have to be in shape bothmentally and physically, um, and
you have to have the, the, thetime and the resource to do that
.
Um, and I do think that's rightand I, you know, like I said,
(21:15):
every chief or, um, uh, sheriffthat we talked to, I mean they,
they will literally, if theydidn't say it as topic number
one, it'll be topic number,it'll be one of the first two
topics, which is mental healthand mental wellness.
In that sense, so I do think, Ido think you know the, the, the
, the tide has turned in thatsense, um, you know the and I do
think you know it makes sense.
I mean, if you see, if you seea rape, that you have at least
what.
You have an hour to chat aboutit.
Right, you can at least sharewhat you, what you saw, and at
(21:35):
least to your point, not feellike you're you have to carry
that for the rest of your lifeyourself, right, I mean cause
that's, that's what you'd haveto do.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, and and I think something that doesn't get
talked out a lot is, many of uscome from childhood trauma,
myself included, and somethingthat I found out that really
that did surprise me was thenumber of first responders that
come from childhood trauma, andwe've talked about it and I
(22:05):
think we all agree it'ssomething that drives us in that
there is a portion of ourchildhood or our early formative
years where we didn't feelprotective, and I think that has
had such an effect on us thatwe end up taking these roles in
society where we get to be theprotector.
So it was interesting for me tofind that out.
(22:25):
Well, you layer that on.
Well, okay, I came from sometype of trauma and here I am, I
take a job that's going toconstantly expose me to trauma,
you know, so that you know, asthey say, it can be triggering,
and so I think we need to beaware of that and have those
conversations again early on inthe academy.
They're like, hey, you're goingto expose a lot of trauma.
Some of this may bring backmemories.
(22:46):
Now, let's give you the toolsnow to be prepared before it
gets to that point.
Now, let's give you the toolsnow to be prepared before it
gets to that point, before youget to walking into a pharmacy
at the end of your rope, readyto die and robbing it because
you have no other way out.
Let's not get to that point,right.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Let's stop that much sooner in the process and in
other words, putting a bunch ofspeed bumps in place so that you
just can't kind of drive off,and some guardrails so that you
can keep yourself from thebehaviors, these kind of
destructive behaviors, and youtalk about it.
You know that's the personalside, you know.
And then and then the publicwill see the example of an
officer who's you know who is,you know in their minds
(23:29):
unnecessarily aggressive.
But again, you never know wherethey just come from.
And I always try to talk.
Say to my friends, you knowwhen's the last time you had a
bad, you know, had a fight withyour wife, and then you went in
and you yelled at one of yourcolleagues or you yelled at
someone that worked for you.
You know, that is exactly what.
You know why it's unrealistic tohold a police officer, or at
(23:51):
least it's unempathetic to tryto hold a police officer to an
incredibly different level.
Right, that they always have tobe courteous, always have to be
polite, always, I mean, you'regoing to have a bad day.
That statistic about policeofficers or people in first
responders who have this need toprotect because of their
childhood, is that I.
(24:12):
That's something it makescomplete sense to me, but that's
something that I hadn't heardbefore.
Is that a?
Is that a?
Is that a kind of an emergingkind of research, that that
people are doing into the space,or is that?
Is there any facts orstatistics around that?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
No, I think it's just something that's starting to
emerge.
It's conversations that arestarting to come up as we
improve our response to mentalhealth for our first responders.
More and more people arestarting to find out like, oh
wow, I was with this group andthis many out of that group
talked about their childhoodtrauma.
So I think it's just nowstarting to get the attention
(24:52):
and research.
There's some on there, butnothing really deep diving.
It's usually just part of awhole collective of mental
health research and firstresponders and it's just kind of
touched upon.
But I just know from mypersonal experience now is
easily over half of the peoplethat I've talked to had some
type of childhood trauma growingup.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
That's you know.
Again, it makes perfect sensethat they would want to be in a.
They want to fix Right.
They don't want someone else togo through that.
And, to your point, they putthemselves in that protective
role as a superficial way ofdealing with their own trauma,
but absent of dealing with yourown trauma.
(25:36):
It is, to your point, it's apatch.
You're not addressing the rootcause, right.
What is?
If you think about it, then I'mjust trying to be practical.
Um, if you're, you know, ifyou're the you know, in the san
francisco police department'sout looking for a new chief of
police, um, how many it's?
(25:59):
I think it's around um athousand, called for the sake of
argument, maybe a thousandsworn officers.
How many psychiatrists wouldyou need to have on staff?
I, I wouldn't even understandthe context.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That'd be a tough one , I know I have to call.
I've been out three years now,three and a half years.
I know when I was there we didnot have a non-staff
psychiatrist.
We do have what we call ourbehavioral science unit.
That's our peer support programor your employee assistance
program.
We do have officers therethrough their own have gone out
(26:34):
and now are licensed clinicians.
But most agencies, like I said,including San Francisco, unless
something's changed in the lastfew years do not have a
psychiatrist on staff.
They have a doctor on staff,they have a medical doctor on
staff one.
But that's interesting.
I never really thought aboutthat.
I would think in a departmentlike San Francisco I think you
(26:59):
want to have at least two.
The problem is they work forthe department.
I think you would need someonepresently not on staff.
But to your point of you do wantsomeone that's culturally
competent.
So you do want someone that hasworked with first responders,
who's had training above andbeyond what they normally get,
(27:21):
so they are better equipped.
But I do think that that couldbe that could be an obstacle for
some members if the person wasa paid staff member of their
agency.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, they're back to this trust issue and you know,
if I'm vulnerable and say thatI've got these issues, well they
pull me off the job Right,because that's my livelihood.
Is is on the line, so to speak.
Is on the line, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Exactly?
And who is their actual client?
Is it the San Francisco PoliceDepartment or is it the officer
that's sitting and it does bringup those issues?
But I think at the very leastyou have someone on staff who
can guide the program.
You can say, hey, this is whatyou should have in your program
and give the, I guess, like Isaid, the proper advice on what
(28:05):
needs to be done and whatresources should be available.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah, it's, you know it would.
It would would.
Just struck me as we've beenthinking about this.
If you think about it at thatsize and scale, you know there's
going to be I don't knowprobably 50 to a hundred
traumatic, what you would calltraumatic things that will sit
in your memory each week, right?
So I mean you, literally thedoctor, it's kind of the old
(28:30):
peanuts.
You know Lucy the doctor's inthe doctor, she'd be, you'd be
caught.
You know they would be.
They would be if they were justthere to have a half hour, you
know, check-in after you've seena rape, or a half hour check-in
after you've seen a murder toyour point, which those do not
classify as significant enoughto kind of stop the day.
I mean, and I think that's youknow, as we start to wrap up, I
(28:53):
think that's you know, when Italk to people and I'm trying to
talk to people through podcasts, I just want you to, I want
people to think that whensomeone pulls you over, the
likelihood that, to your point,the likelihood that they have
been in a trauma, of somethingthat you yourself will only face
three or four times in yourlife, they've been in a trauma
in the last two weeks is quitehigh, and so you know you have
(29:17):
to be they very likely may havejust left one.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
You know, like you said, it's your job.
Your job doesn't stop becauseyou just were at a traumatic
event.
You got to go knock out thatpaperwork and knock out that
report.
And if you're done with thatreport and you're on duty,
you're off to the next call forservice.
And so you may have just walkedfrom that horrific crime scene
and it may not even have beenyour crime scene, so it may have
been another officer's call andyou were back up.
(29:42):
But you got there, you saw it,you're exposed to it.
But now you got to go back inservice because you got to go
handle the calls that arewaiting while those officers
deal with that.
And so, like you say, you know,for the average citizen they
may not know that.
You know and you know it is onus to understand our behaviors,
understand how that could affectus.
You know and and not giveexcuses for being unprofessional
(30:06):
, right, but if you're aware ofthat and you're aware of how
these events could affect you,you're better adapted to prevent
yourself from getting to thatpoint where you're losing your
mind and yelling at a citizenbecause they made an illegal
left turn.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Right, correct.
You know that you're ventingjust because you have the chance
to, so I'm going to.
I'm going to.
This is the second to lastquestion, and it's one that
didn't even prepare you for, butit's one that I care deeply
about, which is the homelessnesschallenge of the, the unhoused.
(30:45):
You saw a lot, you've dealtwith a lot of it in San
Francisco.
What is the answer to that?
I certainly I'm giving myopinion.
I certainly don't think it'spolice are the answer to that
question, nor emergency roomsand the answer to that question.
You've dealt with it and youspent years trying to help folks
(31:08):
in those situations.
Is this something that we'llever fix?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
It's a good question, you know.
Like you said, yeah, for mylast almost five years I ran our
homeless outreach unit and itwas a lieutenant for the last
three years.
It is a tough question and Idon't know if there's one
particular answer.
There's a lot more that needsto be done.
You're absolutely right.
It is not a law enforcement.
There is no law enforcementsolution.
(31:33):
We're just a piece of that team, the way we've done in San
Francisco.
We are just a member of thatco-response team, but it's being
able to have just real, honesttalks.
There's just too many peoplewith opinions who claim to be
advocates who, I think, throw amonkey wrench into the process.
(31:53):
You know there's some who say,well, it's not a mental health
issue, it's a housing crisis.
Well, it's not a housing crisis, it's a mental health issue.
It's a combination ofeverything and we can't just
keep throwing money at it either.
I mean, we've thrown billionsat it in this state in
California and nothing's gottenbetter.
If anything, it's gotten worseat times.
But I just think you need toget people involved who really
(32:21):
aren't trying to be an advocatefor one thing or another.
You want people involved whoreally want to come up with
long-term solutions, and it'sgoing to be a combination of
providing the proper mentalhealth care, providing housing,
and I read one article I thinkdescribed it great.
If we don't have a housingcrisis, we have an extreme
poverty housing crisis.
A lot of these people who areon the street will never be able
(32:44):
to afford even low-cost renthere, like in the San Francisco
Bay Area.
It's never going to beaffordable for them,
unfortunately, for whateverreason, and so the housing that
they're talking about is reallyextreme poverty housing.
And so then, what does thatlook like?
Do we just shelter everybodyinto an SRO and the tenderloin?
(33:06):
And for the listeners, that's asingle room occupancy, that's a
.
Basically you get a room andyou share your showers and
toilet with everyone else on thefloor, and it's usually not a
pleasant group of people,unfortunately, you know.
So you know how is that goingto look down down the road, and
(33:26):
you have to have realisticconversations of we're not going
to be able to provide everybodywith a two-bedroom apartment
with a nice kitchenette.
Maybe it will just have to bean SRO, maybe it will be
something simple and be willingto accept that, and then there
is going to be a group of people, though that will need to be in
a way, forced into it and itdoesn't have to be a law
enforcement approach.
(33:47):
But there are people with mentalhealth issues and we're just
now willing to talk about thatagain of, you know, forced
mental health care, and I alwaysfound that troubling that
mental health advocates wouldsay no, it is against their
civil rights.
And it's inhumane to forcesomebody into a mental health
hospital as opposed to leavingthem out on the street where
(34:10):
they're not mentally capable ofcaring for themselves, where
they're walking around crustedin their own pardon it, but
crusted in their own feces, withabscesses and a lot of times
stuck in addiction.
Somehow that's more humane thangrabbing someone and saying,
hey, guess what, you have nochoice but to be in this mental
health facility.
And, granted, we need to do alot of work at our mental health
(34:33):
facilities.
They need to be much better,they need to be cleaner, they
need to be well run and wellstaffed.
But I think it is less humane toleave them out on the street
than it is to force them into it.
And I and I think there isgoing to come a point where we
have to accept that, and thesame with addiction, you know
there's going to come a pointwhere listen, we tried
everything else, guess what?
(34:54):
We're going to force you into aprogram.
And then we say, well, you knowpeople who don't go in
voluntarily, they have a muchhigher rate of of reoffending
and relapsing.
But I don't think those arereally honest statistics.
I don't think you're looking atit in a way of you know where
were they forced into it andwhat were the follow-up services
(35:14):
and what is the long-termprocess look like.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
But you know, I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean, if it's inside a family, it's called an intervention
and the family does exactly asyou've described.
Right, and they, they, they'll,they're like, hey, you're
coming with us and we're goingto check you into a, you know,
into a mental health, We'llcheck you into some type of
treatment, and that we wouldn'tdo the same to folks who don't
(35:42):
have family seems to be a bit,you know, on the, on the, on the
inhumane on the other side.
I can, I couldn't agree more.
You know, I told you this is 20minutes and now we're at like
37.
So, so, apologies for keepingyou, keeping you on.
We'll have one last questionand I'll let you go, let our
listeners go.
We always like to make aPepperball, likes to make a
(36:05):
small honorarium to a charity ofyour choice.
What can we do and where can wedonate in your name?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
The Overwatch Collective.
It's an organization started bya police officer here in
Northern California.
He's since moved to the otherside of the state, but he or his
organization it's a nonprofitand they help to offset the cost
of mental health care for firstresponders and veterans when
they don't have access to it,when their agencies don't
(36:34):
provide it or out of just fearthey don't want to go through
their agencies.
They help to offset that costand cover as much of it as they
can.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Oh, the Overwatch.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
The Overwatch Collective.
Collective.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Collective All right Now.
If folks wanted to reach out toyou, Davin, and talk or learn
more about what you do, or haveyou come speak?
How can they find you?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Two best ways are you just go to my website it's
davincole.
com, or they could reach me onLinkedIn.
Same thing just search forDavin Cole on LinkedIn and you
can direct message me throughthere, or you can send me a
message through my website.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
All right, and this is davincolecom.
Yes, all right, Davin, thankyou much.
Well, folks, you see me kind ofreturn to this topic, and it's
about empathy for what?
(37:36):
The heroes, these policeofficers that go out every day,
empathy to understand what theydeal with, what they have to see
.
And you think about, um, whatLieutenant Cole was talking
about, that he spent five yearsrunning a homeless task force
where, effectively every day, hesees the stories of people who
(37:59):
you know, who have beenforgotten by society, um, who
have been through horrificissues themselves just to get to
where they are.
And you know, and that that'swhat the you know, the people
that serve us, and the peoplethat go out and the people that
pull you over.
When you've you were speedingor you were, you know, like me,
I had my cell phone to my ear.
(38:21):
I always think, when you getpulled over, it's how can I be,
how can I remember what they'vebeen through?
And now this is three to fivetraumatic events per month.
If you think about that and howwe can be, give them a heck of a
lot more grace.
Of course, we have to hold themaccountable to their
(38:45):
responsibility and to the oaththat they've taken.
But you have to say that thisis a job that very, very few
people sign up to do.
They are the only ones that runinto a fire, they're the only
ones that run into a 911 call,and I think we just want to make
sure we have the grace andempathy to appreciate what they
(39:08):
do and appreciate what they gothrough, and here's hoping that
the trend of getting them theright mental health continues.
So, wrapping up, again, you'vebeen listening and hopefully
enjoyed listening to me.
My name is Bob Plaschke andthis is First Response.
(39:29):
It is a podcast dedicated tounderstanding the stories behind
the people that wear a badge,who are the very brave first
responders more than a millionout there in the United States
and I am very privileged thatthis is sponsored by PepperBall,
the company that I have thehonor to be the CEO of, and
(39:49):
again PepperBall we deploynon-lethal tools that allow
police officers to do their jobsbut not have to use their guns
and not have to suffer and keepthemselves and the public that
they serve safe Until next time,appreciate it and be safe out
(40:10):
there.
The front line of policing is loud, but the voices
behind it, you know they're alot louder and, I think, frankly
, a lot more interesting.
Hi, I'm Bob Plaschke and thisis First Response.
This is the number one podcastthat takes you behind the badge
and uncovers real stories andexperiences of first responders
from all walks of life and thetopics that shape public safety
(00:26):
today.
If you're curious about the guyor the gal behind the hero and
they are indeed truly heroes andthe topics that they care about
, take a listen.
This is kind of your front rowseat to hearing some of the
really interesting voices outthere and, more importantly, the
heroes.
This podcast is sponsored byPepperBall, where I have the
honor to serve as CEO.
(00:47):
PepperBall creates unlethalalternatives to guns, at least
used to keep themselves and thepublic safe.
So today I'm really honored tobe joined by retired Lieutenant
Davin Cole, and Davin spent 31years serving the public here
(01:10):
where I live in NorthernCalifornia, at the San Francisco
Sheriff and then, I think, 28years with the San Francisco
Police Department, and served anumber of roles there, including
helping homeless and those withmental challenges, which is,
you know, as people would knowin San Francisco, or at least a
(01:31):
tribute to San Francisco is amajor challenge for policing
country.
Talking about mental illnessand mental health, actually and
it's not about, you know, thefolks on the street.
(01:52):
He's happy to do that.
He talks about mentalchallenges and the mental health
almost you almost could saycrisis or mental health
significant challenges thatpolice officers face and the
support they need both day today and kind of the external
support they need to managethrough the challenges they face
.
Davin was telling me just beforewe started that he just got
(02:15):
back from Tulsa, Oklahoma, wherehe did a speech, and you, I
think Davin, were telling methat you regularly walk up to
police officers and you engagethem in discussions.
And what do you say?
What do you ask them?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You know, I like to just walk up.
I think if you know anybody inthe law enforcement community,
they will tell you that youcould go anywhere in the country
and walk up to any policeofficer and introduce yourself
as a current or retired policeofficer and you'll immediately
be accepted as a friend, if youwill.
And so I approach it in thatrespect.
As you know, I'm your friendand the first question I like to
(02:52):
ask them may seem a little oddto them at first is you know, do
you have a peer support programin your agency?
And what does that look like?
Usually a little quizzical,look.
It's kind of an odd question tostart a conversation with Um.
But once they tell me you knowI get a variety of answers, and
once they kind of give me thatanswer, I follow up with my
(03:14):
personal story and why I havesuch a strong uh passion in
ensuring that police officersand all our first responders are
getting the proper peer supportand mental health programs in
place that they really shouldhave and that we're still
lacking quite a bit in thiscountry.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Before we get to your personal story and Davin's had
a chance to share it with me andit is compelling and it makes
him incredibly credible toprovide the kind of consultative
support and the counseling andthe topics that he gives talks
on across the country.
But before we get there, whatis you know?
(03:55):
You hear the term peer-to-peersupport.
What does that actually mean?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Well, I think for most people it starts off as a
peer support program is having,generally, members from your own
department receive some extratraining to just be an ear, to
be a shoulder, to be someonethat you know when you need to
talk about something you canrely on, someone who knows where
(04:23):
you've been, who's walked thatsame path and who's going to
have a better understanding ofwhat struggles you might be
having and, you know, make thatconversation easier.
It's difficult to have thesetype of conversations with
someone who hasn't really walkedin our shoes, and so having a
peer support program ensuresthat you know it's going to be
somebody from whether it's youragency or another agency, but
(04:45):
somebody that's walked your path, who's been through the same
experiences as you and has had,you know, that extra training to
be able to listen effectivelyfor you.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So when you talk about walking on the walking the
same path, having the sameexperiences you know, and you
think about it in the context ofyou know, being an ear to
listen, my assumption which Iwould assume folks listening
would assume that thoseexperiences you know are the
more on the negative than thepositive side.
You know Davin was sharing somestatistics with me before,
(05:18):
which I'll let you do now.
Davin, in terms of you know howmany negative experiences
police officers face, which it'shumbling, but please, why don't
you share those statistics withour folks?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, it was even a statistic that kind of didn't
really catch me off guard, butit really even added more
perspective to what my messagingis.
And we talk about being exposedto critical incidents and on
average, the average citizenwill experience four or five
traumatic events in their life,and that could be anything from
(05:54):
a sudden death in the family toa bad car accident, something
like that.
But for police officers andother first responders we
average three to five a month.
So you put that intoperspective.
You know, you look at a 30-yearcareer, 12 months a year.
You know, and you start gettinginto the 300 to 400 range of
(06:16):
exposure to critical incidents.
And these are not just yours,not just the incidents that
you're involved in, but you'realso exposed to your victims
incident.
You're exposed to yourwitnesses.
You're exposed to even thesuspects.
You know you have to absorbthat too.
(06:38):
You know they're in the midstof a traumatic event and you
don't even have time to be partof the process.
You just have to go there anddo your job.
And so you're getting exposedto this and it's layer after
layer after layer of traumaticevents and it builds up over
time and we are just nowlearning what these long term
(07:00):
effects have on first respondersand on police officers.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
These long-term effects have on first responders
and on police officers.
And you know you think aboutthat.
Three, you know, effectivelythe equivalent of three car
accidents a month, or three, toyour point, sudden death or, I
would imagine, a divorce orgetting fired would be examples
of that kind of trauma and, toyour point, it cumulatively
(07:25):
builds up.
And when I talk to, obviously,a lot of firefighters on that
side of the world, what they seein terms of dealing with
accidents and the kind ofcarnage they have to deal with,
it's horrific on both sides.
I think it's, frankly, I dothink it's a bit worse on the
(07:48):
police side because you'reseeing, unfortunately, you're
seeing a lot of the worst ofhumanity, right.
You're seeing people who eitherare going through things that
nobody should go through abuse,victims of crime, rape, or
victims of crime, rape and thenyou're seeing people who
perpetrated which you know, Iwould imagine it just to be able
.
It must be horrific just to seethat again and again and again.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
It is, I mean, and it's hard on you and, like I
said, you don't really get toprocess it.
You're there to do a job, youknow.
It's kind of like an oldepisode of you or Dragnet.
Just the facts, ma'am.
I'm just here to do my job andas much as you have empathy for
them, you don't really have timeto sit there and be empathetic.
(08:34):
You have a job to do and youthink about it.
For police officers, when do weget to go to a scene where
somebody's happy to see us?
We're there, right, we're.
We're there because somethinghappened to you.
You're the victim of a crime.
We're we're there because youwere speeding it and now we have
(08:55):
to do our job and pull you over, and now we have to write you a
ticket.
You know, we're not therebecause you're celebrating a
wedding.
We're not there because you'rehaving a newborn event in your
life.
We're only there for the badtimes, and you know that builds
up on me too.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
You know, and I and I , it's I, I I've now become a
bit of a bore at my you know, atmy social events, because
people ask me what I do and Idescribe it.
And then you know it's and mostpeople don't have a lot of
experience with police andpolice officers to your point
that it's, it's.
It's the person that you, youhope that you never have to call
right, or it's the person thatyou hope never pulls you over.
(09:33):
And I try to explain.
I've said you know, look, thisis, you know, they're brothers,
mothers, fathers, sons,daughters.
They're just, you know, they'rejust, you know, no different
than you and they've picked aprofession that to serve.
And they picked a professionbut in the process of serving to
(09:55):
your point, no one is everhappy to see them.
In that context, it's not theparticularly it is, it is a
really tough job.
It's not the particularly it is, it is a really tough job.
So so you said that you, you,you, when you pull officers
aside and talk about peer topeer support and whether they
have it, then you, you give thema synopsis of your story.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
So give us that.
What is that?
Give that synopsis.
Yeah, so, as you said, 30, 31years altogether in law
enforcement.
I'm involved in twoofficer-involved shootings.
As you pointed out, we go to alot of horrific crime scenes,
which I did.
We get injured a lot, get a lotof bumps and bruises in law
(10:40):
enforcement.
In my particular case, I was acanine trainer for 10 years and
a canine handler for 15.
And during a training scenarioI was pretty severely bit by one
of the dogs, ended up with atthe time what they thought was
going to be permanent nervedamage.
I was at chronic pain forseveral years before they're
able to go in and perform asurgery and repair the impinged
(11:04):
nerve.
But because of that chronicpain I was prescribed high doses
of opioid pain medication.
At the time I didn't know I wassuffering with mental health
issues, but I did develop anaddiction to these prescription
pain meds and, despite the factthat they were able to go in
there and, as I said, repair thenerve damage and remove that
(11:27):
pain, my addiction led me tocontinue to seek out pain
medications through my doctorsand from the time of the injury
until the end of my career itwas 10 years.
It was a solid seven years of anaddiction to the pain meds, on
top of that alcohol.
And again I didn't understandwhere this addiction was coming
from.
I was, and still am, in areally great marriage.
(11:50):
I have a wonderful wife who'sbeen by my side this whole time.
I was doing well in my career.
I'd moved up the ranks, uh, fromSergeant and then Lieutenant,
acting Lieutenant for threeyears.
Uh was next up for a permanentpromotion to Lieutenant, was
going to stick around forcaptain, um, but I was spiraling
out of control.
You know I had severedepression, um, as I found out
(12:13):
later, I had a severe case ofcomplex post-traumatic stress
disorder and the addictioneventually led me to rob a
pharmacy for payments, whichresulted in my arrest as soon as
I exited the pharmacy and fromthere, obviously I had to retire
.
My department understood that Iwas suffering with mental
health and, you know, allowed meto retire.
(12:34):
But then I had to deal with thecriminal consequences and just
the overall consequencesemotionally, civilly, everything
and had to process through that, ended up going to jail for six
months, locked in my cell allday because of my status as a
former police officer.
Officer was 30 minutes out a day.
That was.
It did that for six months butsince then have focused my time
(12:59):
on sharing my story because Iknow addiction addiction rate in
law enforcement is about 40percent.
Suicide rates and I was verysuicidal prior to my arrest it
was about four times thenational average.
So I know this is a seriousissue amongst police officers
and first responders and I sharemy story because I want people
(13:21):
to know they're not alone intheir struggles and that it's
okay to struggle and thatthere's help and that you can
survive and you can get throughthis and with the right help you
could be back to a functioninghuman being again.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Well, I appreciate you telling and you and I have
already had a discussion, butsharing with the folks that are
listening here, it is asombering story.
It is a sombering story, butdid you say that 40% of police
officers have an addiction ofsome type?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yes, that's.
The current statistics is about40% of officers have some form
of substance use disorder oranother type of addiction.
We have pornography, we haveshopping addiction.
Then there's other justmaladaptive behaviors that they
get into, other risky behaviorsHaving multiple affairs if
they're in a marriage or otherrelationship, engaging in
(14:21):
high-risk sports or not evensports, just high-risk
activities.
They get in a motorcycle thenext thing, you know.
I've talked to guys that theywould routinely go 100 and 110
miles an hour on theirmotorcycle, secretly wishing
they would crash and die, youknow, as part of their struggles
.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
And you know, and so I don't know what the statistic
is for the general population.
I assume 40% is much.
That's a high number comparedto what the general population I
assume 40% is is it's much?
That's that's a high numbercompared to what?
Um, what the general population?
Certainly I, I have.
I have had many people talk,come on this, this podcast, and
talk about suicide rates and, toyour point, four times the
national average, um, when youlook back, um, um, could you
(15:08):
have, you probably could haveseen the.
I mean, looking back, could youhave seen the early signs of,
of, when it was starting to kindof build and you, you didn't
have a, a weight event Was that,was that kind of?
You know, years before the, the, the incident with the, with
the canine, or you know, couldyou, when you look backwards,
(15:29):
can you start to see the trend?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I can.
You know, I look back to lookback to some of the simple
things sleeping issues I wouldhave insomnia, three, four days
of not sleeping.
I would have, in a way, angermanagement issues, but mainly
for work.
I hated everything about work.
I hated my bosses, I hatedother cops, I hated the
citizenry.
I just was always angry aboutwork.
(15:51):
I hated my bosses, I hatedother cops, I hated the
citizenry.
I just was, you know, alwaysangry about something.
A new policy would just set meoff on like this crazy rant of a
simple change in policy, youknow.
And so I've been able to lookback and go, wow, yeah, those
were the early stages of signsof struggling mentally.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I always try to articulate to folks,
You know they, they talk about,you know, getting pulled over
and the police officer was a bitrude and I'm like you know you
have no idea what he or she mayhave just come from, right and
and you have no idea whatthey've been through.
But you know, you know again, Ilove that I not love is not the
right word for it but thestatistic of three to four
(16:35):
traumas a month, you know, um it, it.
It takes years to processtrauma, not not days.
And so you're, you're just acumulative, um, you know,
cumulative ball of emotion, um,and in that context, tell me
what leading agencies you know,when you go out and talk about
(16:57):
what they should do and whatleading agencies are doing.
How now do agencies try to putprograms in place to try to let
officers kind of grieve throughthat or at least process,
because it's still's still.
I mean, if you think how muchtime it would take to get over a
car accident, you can't do itin an hour, right?
I mean, that's the, that's theproblem.
(17:18):
And, to your point, you're backon the job.
It's not like people give yousix weeks off for every incident
.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
You would never work right, yeah, the whole force
would be at home, you knowexactly.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So how does it?
How does it?
How can it work?
I mean, how?
What is it?
Is it?
What is the best practices,even still abandoned.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
No, I mean, I think that the best, the true best
practices are starting and whenyou look at that, what you're
seeing is, first off, unlimitedaccess to mental health care.
So your the department'sinsurance, your personal
insurance, something is coveringit, you're not out of pocket
and you have access to it.
(17:59):
Confidential access.
That's probably the number onefear that police officers have
is that they're seeking helpisn't going to be confidential,
that they're seeking help isn'tgoing to be confidential.
So, confidential assistance,unlimited access, in-house, a
better processing.
We talk about having a criticalincident debrief and we will
(18:23):
debrief the major criticalincidents.
Unfortunately, today, the LAsheriffs have lost three
deputies to an explosion.
Right, they will have criticalincident debriefs.
It's a major incident.
What I advocate for and whatwe're starting to see is just
debriefing everyday BS.
(18:43):
You know, like you said, we'rebeing exposed to these other
traumatic events and we're notdebriefing those because it's
part of the job, right?
You, you're expected to go outto a car accident where somebody
has lost their life.
You're expected to go to ascene where maybe a child has
died or or horrific rape, as yousaid, but we don't debrief
(19:04):
those because they don'tnormally fit into the trigger
for for starting a debriefingprocess.
What we're seeing now is thatthat is starting to happen on a
regular basis.
Like I said, it's rare.
It's still very rare, but whenyou talk about best practices,
(19:27):
we are starting to do that andwe're having more open
conversations.
It's no more, suck it upcupcake.
It's no more.
Hey, this is the job you signedup for.
If you can't handle this, youneed a new career.
We're now starting to acceptthat.
Hey, yes, this job takes a tollon us mentally and we need to
have those conversations and weneed to start them early.
(19:47):
We need to start them in theacademy and we need to continue
these conversations outthroughout your career.
And we're seeing more and moreof that.
I'm even seeing where, as partof your annual review, they want
you to go talk to a therapistyou know, just to show up.
You don't even have to talk.
They just want to know hey,here's your resources, here's a
list of therapists as part ofyour annual review.
(20:08):
We just want you to have a talkwith this person.
We want to make sure you'regetting the proper care.
We want you to go see yourdoctor once a year and make sure
, physically, you're doing well,but we want to see the same
thing with the therapist.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Well, and I think, and probably nine out of 10
folks that I bring on thepodcast, we, the conversation,
eventually turns to this topic,which is you know, how do you in
the old days it was give youthe equipment.
It then turned into giving youthe equipment and make sure
you're in shape right and makesure you have the exercise kind
(20:45):
of for your body.
And then now to your point.
It's the mind, the mind and thespirit and the soul.
And you know, and all, all ofthose, you have to have the
right equipment, you have tohave the right training, but you
have to be in shape bothmentally and physically, um, and
you have to have the, the, thetime and the resource to do that
.
Um, and I do think that's rightand I, you know, like I said,
(21:15):
every chief or, um, uh, sheriffthat we talked to, I mean they,
they will literally, if theydidn't say it as topic number
one, it'll be topic number,it'll be one of the first two
topics, which is mental healthand mental wellness.
In that sense, so I do think, Ido think you know the, the, the
, the tide has turned in thatsense, um, you know the and I do
think you know it makes sense.
I mean, if you see, if you seea rape, that you have at least
what.
You have an hour to chat aboutit.
Right, you can at least sharewhat you, what you saw, and at
(21:35):
least to your point, not feellike you're you have to carry
that for the rest of your lifeyourself, right, I mean cause
that's, that's what you'd haveto do.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, and and I think something that doesn't get
talked out a lot is, many of uscome from childhood trauma,
myself included, and somethingthat I found out that really
that did surprise me was thenumber of first responders that
come from childhood trauma, andwe've talked about it and I
(22:05):
think we all agree it'ssomething that drives us in that
there is a portion of ourchildhood or our early formative
years where we didn't feelprotective, and I think that has
had such an effect on us thatwe end up taking these roles in
society where we get to be theprotector.
So it was interesting for me tofind that out.
(22:25):
Well, you layer that on.
Well, okay, I came from sometype of trauma and here I am, I
take a job that's going toconstantly expose me to trauma,
you know, so that you know, asthey say, it can be triggering,
and so I think we need to beaware of that and have those
conversations again early on inthe academy.
They're like, hey, you're goingto expose a lot of trauma.
Some of this may bring backmemories.
(22:46):
Now, let's give you the toolsnow to be prepared before it
gets to that point.
Now, let's give you the toolsnow to be prepared before it
gets to that point, before youget to walking into a pharmacy
at the end of your rope, readyto die and robbing it because
you have no other way out.
Let's not get to that point,right.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Let's stop that much sooner in the process and in
other words, putting a bunch ofspeed bumps in place so that you
just can't kind of drive off,and some guardrails so that you
can keep yourself from thebehaviors, these kind of
destructive behaviors, and youtalk about it.
You know that's the personalside, you know.
And then and then the publicwill see the example of an
officer who's you know who is,you know in their minds
(23:29):
unnecessarily aggressive.
But again, you never know wherethey just come from.
And I always try to talk.
Say to my friends, you knowwhen's the last time you had a
bad, you know, had a fight withyour wife, and then you went in
and you yelled at one of yourcolleagues or you yelled at
someone that worked for you.
You know, that is exactly what.
You know why it's unrealistic tohold a police officer, or at
(23:51):
least it's unempathetic to tryto hold a police officer to an
incredibly different level.
Right, that they always have tobe courteous, always have to be
polite, always, I mean, you'regoing to have a bad day.
That statistic about policeofficers or people in first
responders who have this need toprotect because of their
childhood, is that I.
(24:12):
That's something it makescomplete sense to me, but that's
something that I hadn't heardbefore.
Is that a?
Is that a?
Is that a kind of an emergingkind of research, that that
people are doing into the space,or is that?
Is there any facts orstatistics around that?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
No, I think it's just something that's starting to
emerge.
It's conversations that arestarting to come up as we
improve our response to mentalhealth for our first responders.
More and more people arestarting to find out like, oh
wow, I was with this group andthis many out of that group
talked about their childhoodtrauma.
So I think it's just nowstarting to get the attention
(24:52):
and research.
There's some on there, butnothing really deep diving.
It's usually just part of awhole collective of mental
health research and firstresponders and it's just kind of
touched upon.
But I just know from mypersonal experience now is
easily over half of the peoplethat I've talked to had some
type of childhood trauma growingup.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
That's you know.
Again, it makes perfect sensethat they would want to be in a.
They want to fix Right.
They don't want someone else togo through that.
And, to your point, they putthemselves in that protective
role as a superficial way ofdealing with their own trauma,
but absent of dealing with yourown trauma.
(25:36):
It is, to your point, it's apatch.
You're not addressing the rootcause, right.
What is?
If you think about it, then I'mjust trying to be practical.
Um, if you're, you know, ifyou're the you know, in the san
francisco police department'sout looking for a new chief of
police, um, how many it's?
(25:59):
I think it's around um athousand, called for the sake of
argument, maybe a thousandsworn officers.
How many psychiatrists wouldyou need to have on staff?
I, I wouldn't even understandthe context.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That'd be a tough one , I know I have to call.
I've been out three years now,three and a half years.
I know when I was there we didnot have a non-staff
psychiatrist.
We do have what we call ourbehavioral science unit.
That's our peer support programor your employee assistance
program.
We do have officers therethrough their own have gone out
(26:34):
and now are licensed clinicians.
But most agencies, like I said,including San Francisco, unless
something's changed in the lastfew years do not have a
psychiatrist on staff.
They have a doctor on staff,they have a medical doctor on
staff one.
But that's interesting.
I never really thought aboutthat.
I would think in a departmentlike San Francisco I think you
(26:59):
want to have at least two.
The problem is they work forthe department.
I think you would need someonepresently not on staff.
But to your point of you do wantsomeone that's culturally
competent.
So you do want someone that hasworked with first responders,
who's had training above andbeyond what they normally get,
(27:21):
so they are better equipped.
But I do think that that couldbe that could be an obstacle for
some members if the person wasa paid staff member of their
agency.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, they're back to this trust issue and you know,
if I'm vulnerable and say thatI've got these issues, well they
pull me off the job Right,because that's my livelihood.
Is is on the line, so to speak.
Is on the line, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Exactly?
And who is their actual client?
Is it the San Francisco PoliceDepartment or is it the officer
that's sitting and it does bringup those issues?
But I think at the very leastyou have someone on staff who
can guide the program.
You can say, hey, this is whatyou should have in your program
and give the, I guess, like Isaid, the proper advice on what
(28:05):
needs to be done and whatresources should be available.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah, it's, you know it would.
It would would.
Just struck me as we've beenthinking about this.
If you think about it at thatsize and scale, you know there's
going to be I don't knowprobably 50 to a hundred
traumatic, what you would calltraumatic things that will sit
in your memory each week, right?
So I mean you, literally thedoctor, it's kind of the old
(28:30):
peanuts.
You know Lucy the doctor's inthe doctor, she'd be, you'd be
caught.
You know they would be.
They would be if they were justthere to have a half hour, you
know, check-in after you've seena rape, or a half hour check-in
after you've seen a murder toyour point, which those do not
classify as significant enoughto kind of stop the day.
I mean, and I think that's youknow, as we start to wrap up, I
(28:53):
think that's you know, when Italk to people and I'm trying to
talk to people through podcasts, I just want you to, I want
people to think that whensomeone pulls you over, the
likelihood that, to your point,the likelihood that they have
been in a trauma, of somethingthat you yourself will only face
three or four times in yourlife, they've been in a trauma
in the last two weeks is quitehigh, and so you know you have
(29:17):
to be they very likely may havejust left one.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
You know, like you said, it's your job.
Your job doesn't stop becauseyou just were at a traumatic
event.
You got to go knock out thatpaperwork and knock out that
report.
And if you're done with thatreport and you're on duty,
you're off to the next call forservice.
And so you may have just walkedfrom that horrific crime scene
and it may not even have beenyour crime scene, so it may have
been another officer's call andyou were back up.
(29:42):
But you got there, you saw it,you're exposed to it.
But now you got to go back inservice because you got to go
handle the calls that arewaiting while those officers
deal with that.
And so, like you say, you know,for the average citizen they
may not know that.
You know and you know it is onus to understand our behaviors,
understand how that could affectus.
You know and and not giveexcuses for being unprofessional
(30:06):
, right, but if you're aware ofthat and you're aware of how
these events could affect you,you're better adapted to prevent
yourself from getting to thatpoint where you're losing your
mind and yelling at a citizenbecause they made an illegal
left turn.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Right, correct.
You know that you're ventingjust because you have the chance
to, so I'm going to.
I'm going to.
This is the second to lastquestion, and it's one that
didn't even prepare you for, butit's one that I care deeply
about, which is the homelessnesschallenge of the, the unhoused.
(30:45):
You saw a lot, you've dealtwith a lot of it in San
Francisco.
What is the answer to that?
I certainly I'm giving myopinion.
I certainly don't think it'spolice are the answer to that
question, nor emergency roomsand the answer to that question.
You've dealt with it and youspent years trying to help folks
(31:08):
in those situations.
Is this something that we'llever fix?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
It's a good question, you know.
Like you said, yeah, for mylast almost five years I ran our
homeless outreach unit and itwas a lieutenant for the last
three years.
It is a tough question and Idon't know if there's one
particular answer.
There's a lot more that needsto be done.
You're absolutely right.
It is not a law enforcement.
There is no law enforcementsolution.
(31:33):
We're just a piece of that team, the way we've done in San
Francisco.
We are just a member of thatco-response team, but it's being
able to have just real, honesttalks.
There's just too many peoplewith opinions who claim to be
advocates who, I think, throw amonkey wrench into the process.
(31:53):
You know there's some who say,well, it's not a mental health
issue, it's a housing crisis.
Well, it's not a housing crisis, it's a mental health issue.
It's a combination ofeverything and we can't just
keep throwing money at it either.
I mean, we've thrown billionsat it in this state in
California and nothing's gottenbetter.
If anything, it's gotten worseat times.
But I just think you need toget people involved who really
(32:21):
aren't trying to be an advocatefor one thing or another.
You want people involved whoreally want to come up with
long-term solutions, and it'sgoing to be a combination of
providing the proper mentalhealth care, providing housing,
and I read one article I thinkdescribed it great.
If we don't have a housingcrisis, we have an extreme
poverty housing crisis.
A lot of these people who areon the street will never be able
(32:44):
to afford even low-cost renthere, like in the San Francisco
Bay Area.
It's never going to beaffordable for them,
unfortunately, for whateverreason, and so the housing that
they're talking about is reallyextreme poverty housing.
And so then, what does thatlook like?
Do we just shelter everybodyinto an SRO and the tenderloin?
(33:06):
And for the listeners, that's asingle room occupancy, that's a
.
Basically you get a room andyou share your showers and
toilet with everyone else on thefloor, and it's usually not a
pleasant group of people,unfortunately, you know.
So you know how is that goingto look down down the road, and
(33:26):
you have to have realisticconversations of we're not going
to be able to provide everybodywith a two-bedroom apartment
with a nice kitchenette.
Maybe it will just have to bean SRO, maybe it will be
something simple and be willingto accept that, and then there
is going to be a group of people, though that will need to be in
a way, forced into it and itdoesn't have to be a law
enforcement approach.
(33:47):
But there are people with mentalhealth issues and we're just
now willing to talk about thatagain of, you know, forced
mental health care, and I alwaysfound that troubling that
mental health advocates wouldsay no, it is against their
civil rights.
And it's inhumane to forcesomebody into a mental health
hospital as opposed to leavingthem out on the street where
(34:10):
they're not mentally capable ofcaring for themselves, where
they're walking around crustedin their own pardon it, but
crusted in their own feces, withabscesses and a lot of times
stuck in addiction.
Somehow that's more humane thangrabbing someone and saying,
hey, guess what, you have nochoice but to be in this mental
health facility.
And, granted, we need to do alot of work at our mental health
(34:33):
facilities.
They need to be much better,they need to be cleaner, they
need to be well run and wellstaffed.
But I think it is less humane toleave them out on the street
than it is to force them into it.
And I and I think there isgoing to come a point where we
have to accept that, and thesame with addiction, you know
there's going to come a pointwhere listen, we tried
everything else, guess what?
(34:54):
We're going to force you into aprogram.
And then we say, well, you knowpeople who don't go in
voluntarily, they have a muchhigher rate of of reoffending
and relapsing.
But I don't think those arereally honest statistics.
I don't think you're looking atit in a way of you know where
were they forced into it andwhat were the follow-up services
(35:14):
and what is the long-termprocess look like.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
But you know, I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean, if it's inside a family, it's called an intervention
and the family does exactly asyou've described.
Right, and they, they, they'll,they're like, hey, you're
coming with us and we're goingto check you into a, you know,
into a mental health, We'llcheck you into some type of
treatment, and that we wouldn'tdo the same to folks who don't
(35:42):
have family seems to be a bit,you know, on the, on the, on the
inhumane on the other side.
I can, I couldn't agree more.
You know, I told you this is 20minutes and now we're at like
37.
So, so, apologies for keepingyou, keeping you on.
We'll have one last questionand I'll let you go, let our
listeners go.
We always like to make aPepperball, likes to make a
(36:05):
small honorarium to a charity ofyour choice.
What can we do and where can wedonate in your name?
Speaker 2 (36:13):
The Overwatch Collective.
It's an organization started bya police officer here in
Northern California.
He's since moved to the otherside of the state, but he or his
organization it's a nonprofitand they help to offset the cost
of mental health care for firstresponders and veterans when
they don't have access to it,when their agencies don't
(36:34):
provide it or out of just fearthey don't want to go through
their agencies.
They help to offset that costand cover as much of it as they
can.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Oh, the Overwatch.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
The Overwatch Collective.
Collective.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Collective All right Now.
If folks wanted to reach out toyou, Davin, and talk or learn
more about what you do, or haveyou come speak?
How can they find you?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Two best ways are you just go to my website it's
davincole.
com, or they could reach me onLinkedIn.
Same thing just search forDavin Cole on LinkedIn and you
can direct message me throughthere, or you can send me a
message through my website.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
All right, and this is davincolecom.
Yes, all right, Davin, thankyou much.
Well, folks, you see me kind ofreturn to this topic, and it's
about empathy for what?
(37:36):
The heroes, these policeofficers that go out every day,
empathy to understand what theydeal with, what they have to see
.
And you think about, um, whatLieutenant Cole was talking
about, that he spent five yearsrunning a homeless task force
where, effectively every day, hesees the stories of people who
(37:59):
you know, who have beenforgotten by society, um, who
have been through horrificissues themselves just to get to
where they are.
And you know, and that that'swhat the you know, the people
that serve us, and the peoplethat go out and the people that
pull you over.
When you've you were speedingor you were, you know, like me,
I had my cell phone to my ear.
(38:21):
I always think, when you getpulled over, it's how can I be,
how can I remember what they'vebeen through?
And now this is three to fivetraumatic events per month.
If you think about that and howwe can be, give them a heck of a
lot more grace.
Of course, we have to hold themaccountable to their
(38:45):
responsibility and to the oaththat they've taken.
But you have to say that thisis a job that very, very few
people sign up to do.
They are the only ones that runinto a fire, they're the only
ones that run into a 911 call,and I think we just want to make
sure we have the grace andempathy to appreciate what they
(39:08):
do and appreciate what they gothrough, and here's hoping that
the trend of getting them theright mental health continues.
So, wrapping up, again, you'vebeen listening and hopefully
enjoyed listening to me.
My name is Bob Plaschke andthis is First Response.
(39:29):
It is a podcast dedicated tounderstanding the stories behind
the people that wear a badge,who are the very brave first
responders more than a millionout there in the United States
and I am very privileged thatthis is sponsored by PepperBall,
the company that I have thehonor to be the CEO of, and
(39:49):
again PepperBall we deploynon-lethal tools that allow
police officers to do their jobsbut not have to use their guns
and not have to suffer and keepthemselves and the public that
they serve safe Until next time,appreciate it and be safe out
(40:10):
there.
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