What does policing look like beyond the dramatized TV portrayals and sensationalized headlines? In this illuminating conversation with retired Chief Doug Shoemaker, we uncover the profound realities of modern law enforcement leadership and the extraordinary psychological burden carried by those who wear the badge.
Chief Shoemaker brings 33 years of frontline experience to this discussion, including his roles as Chief of Police for both Denton, Texas and Grand Junction, Colorado. Now working alongside renowned leadership expert Simon Sinek at "The Curve," he's helping shape the future of police leadership in America.
The statistics are staggering - while average citizens experience only 2-4 major traumatic incidents in their lifetime, police officers witness hundreds throughout their careers. Yet they're expected to maintain their humanity and professionalism through it all. We explore how police culture has evolved from the old "suck it up" mentality to embracing wellness as a crucial component of effective policing.
Perhaps most surprising is Chief Shoemaker's revelation that nearly half of all police calls have nothing to do with law enforcement at all. Officers routinely serve as social workers, mental health first responders, and community mediators - roles rarely depicted in entertainment media that focuses exclusively on arrests and action.
The fragmented nature of American policing - with 18,000 different agencies nationwide - creates unique challenges for consistency in training, standards, and leadership. We discuss what it might look like to build a more cohesive system while maintaining the community-specific approaches that make American policing unique.
This conversation provides rare insight into the heart of law enforcement, revealing both the extraordinary challenges officers face and the evolving approaches to leadership that support them in serving their communities with humanity and effectiveness. Whether you work in public safety or simply want to understand what happens behind the badge, this episode will transform how you view the complex world of modern policing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
The front line of policing is loud, but the voices
behind it, you know they're alot louder and, I think, frankly
, a lot more interesting.
Hi, I'm Bob Plaschke and thisis First Response.
This is the number one podcastthat takes you behind the badge
and uncovers real stories andexperiences of first responders
from all walks of life and thetopics that shape public safety
(00:26):
today.
If you're curious about the guyor the gal behind the hero and
they are indeed truly heroes andthe topics that they care about
, take a listen.
This is kind of your front rowseat to hearing some of the
really interesting voices outthere and, more importantly, the
heroes.
This podcast is sponsored byPepperball, where I have the
honor to serve as CEO.
(00:47):
Pepperball creates unlethalalternatives to guns, at least
used to keep themselves and thepublic safe.
So today, super excited, veryhonored and excited to have
Chief Doug Shoemaker on.
(01:07):
Chief Shoemaker retired.
Spent many years in the line ofduty, 33 to be exact, most
recently as the chief of policefor the Denton, texas Police
Department.
He came through to that role asthe chief of police of the
Grand Junction in ColoradoPolice Department and then spent
(01:29):
almost the majority of his timein Jefferson City, missouri,
staff and command atNorthwestern University where I
attended so go cats is anexecutive at Peregrine, which is
(01:52):
a situation awareness and dataaggregation platform for public
safety Very successful base herewhere I live in the Silicon
Valley and is co-founded thecurve with Simon Sinek, which,
for those who follow leadershipand motivation, simon Sinek, one
of the top 10 TED Talk guysfantastic, very well known for
(02:17):
his inspirational speakingaround motivation, and I follow
him myself and so excited tohave Chief Shoemaker and myself
and so excited to have ChiefShoemaker, who actively
participates with Simon in termsof trying to influence
leadership in policing, kind ofpost-George Floyd.
So, chief, it's great to haveyou on the first question, for
(02:39):
you is a bit of a hard ball or afastball, I guess.
You know the challenge ofpolicing in the United States is
significant, and it's even moresignificant than the fact that
you've got 18,000 police chiefsin all shapes and sizes who come
(03:00):
through a variety of differenteducational paths.
You know there's not a nationalacademy, so to speak, and so
consistency is a challenge.
You know, what is yourperspective on the state of the
state of the quality of policechiefs in the United States from
a leadership perspective, fromtheir ability to execute in a
(03:23):
way that we want them to execute.
How would you think about that?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, great.
First question, and that's nota softball to start off with,
for sure.
You know it's unique.
The United States has 18,000plus police agencies and so it
is vastly different than some ofour neighbors across the pond,
if you will, whether it's the UKor Ireland, I mean, you know
even in Norway, all thesedifferent countries that have
(03:47):
national police services.
So every jurisdiction has apolice chief or sheriff and with
that comes 18,000 differentpersonalities and 18,000
different ways of doing things,because the communities are so
unique.
And you know, in my experienceI've been really lucky to get to
know a lot of people throughoutmy time with the ICP and
(04:08):
throughout just my work ingeneral, and it's funny to note
how differently everybodyapproaches it.
But a lot of it's really basedon the jurisdictions that they
serve.
And you know the word of fitreally comes into play in terms
of certain police chiefs thatare really great in one area may
(04:28):
not excel in another area.
You know, a big city chief maynot do as well in a smaller
municipality because of thechallenges that are there, and
vice versa, for example.
So, far and wide, the vastmajority of the chiefs that I've
met are there because they wantto do the right thing and they
want, they've accepted thatleadership role.
(04:48):
They understand the challengesthat go with it and truly, if
you're not willing to step up tothat role and take on those
challenges in a way that isforward thinking and in a way
that really protects thecommunity and protects the women
and men that serve alongsideyou, you probably shouldn't be
in the role.
It's not meant to be aretirement, it's not meant to be
(05:10):
easy.
And sure, I've met some folksthat maybe we have some
philosophical disagreements withon how to do that or the lack
of doing that in some cases.
But I think I've met so manygreat leaders and I feel really
privileged to have thatexperience.
So many great leaders and Ifeel really privileged to have
that experience.
So many great leaders that arereally trying to look to the
(05:37):
next generation of policing andsay how can we help them do it
better than we did?
And as I see, as time goes on,more and more retirements happen
, more and more younger, newerfolks that are coming through
those ranks because it's goingto happen.
Right, the opportunistic andthe idealism I think is really
starting to come through alittle bit about what the future
holds for policing.
And you know, obviously we wentthrough some challenges with
(06:00):
2020, covid, george Floyd, allthe things and that was an
extremely difficult time as apolice chief for all of us, but
we persevered, some of us stayed, some of us didn't, and those
of us that stayed through reallyhad a.
I think we were able to walkout of it with really a greater
understanding of what policinglooks like as we move forward,
(06:20):
and being a part of that was waswas difficult, but it was.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
It was an honor still you know um, um, unlike um, um,
and, and that all makes sense,and um and and for sure, the
that I, I don't I can't think ofthat many situations of police
chiefs or sheriffs that I've metwho didn't fit the bill as you
(06:45):
describe it right A deepcommitment to public safety and
to public service.
It's a thankless job most ofthe time and you're only
typically in the spotlight whensomething goes wrong.
And when it goes wrong, itusually goes wrong in a way that
the public has a tendency tooverreact to or to to sadly
(07:10):
assume the worst.
And so you're, you're, you'rekind of it's not easy.
It's not an easy job when youknow, as I've talked to chiefs,
there's a question heresomewhere, there's a question
here somewhere.
When I talk to chiefs, they talkabout the old school, which was
the.
You know, I'm going to ask you,I'm going to tell you and then
(07:30):
I'm going to make you and theold school was.
You know, look, I appreciate,you know you just had a
traumatic incident.
But you know what, get back up,up, get.
You know kind of get and getback on the job.
Right, you don't have much of achoice.
So it was a bit of old school,hard knocks um, tough love, um.
(07:51):
If you could articulate whatpolicing, um, you know the, what
policing of today or the futureshould look like, you know,
given those different umanalogies, how would you
articulate it?
Um, what would be the, the, the, the new way of policing and
how to articulate that.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, and you're exactly right.
In the 33 years I was on, Icertainly very keenly remember
when I began if there was somesort of major event, a traumatic
event, some sort of major event, a traumatic event, just the
things that we see daily inpolicing.
It was the suck it up kind ofattitude of you know, you're the
(08:31):
tough person, you got to fightthrough it.
There's no such thing, as youknow, having issues with this
stuff, this is what you're goingto see every day.
So you either can make it oryou can't, and so it was a
difficult challenge, I think, toget through, but it was really
just the way we did it.
To fast forward to today, and Ithink we've evolved in a lot of
(08:52):
ways, and I would say in a verypositive number of ways,
specifically with the holisticview of wellness of our men and
women that do the job out therein the first place wellness of
our men and women that do thejob out there in the first place
.
So wellness, for example, hasbecome a much more talked about
(09:13):
thing within policing, and it'snot an automatic assumption that
somebody's having some mentalbreakdown issues just because
they're experiencing some sortof trauma based upon what they
saw that day or that week or areexperiencing whatever else.
So there's a much more openconversation about that in
particular, which I think isvery healthy for organizations
to embrace that a bit and say,okay, how do we keep our people
(09:34):
not only physically safe bygiving them the body, armor, the
tools, all the things to go outand do the job physically to
keep them safe, but alsopsychologically and mentally, or
emotionally job physically tokeep them safe, but also
psychologically and mentally.
How do our emotionally, how dowe keep them safe to make sure
that we, that they know that wehave their backs to go out and
do the job, and that and thatcan be just as important as the
physical piece, because ifofficers feel like they aren't
(09:58):
supported to go and do what theyknow they need to do, uh, it's
difficult to go out and do thejob.
In the first place, you'realready dealing with the
challenges out there.
Plus, then you're dealing withthe challenges internally where
you don't know if you're goingto get written up or fired or
who knows what if you go out andjust simply do your job.
So I think that evolution hasbeen much needed and I think
(10:18):
it's certainly much moreprevalent today than it ever has
been in policing, and I thinkthat's that's a very good thing
for where our organizationsstand.
Um, it's, it's it's not a oldschool profession anymore, it's.
It really truly needs to evolveand, as as Simon talks about
and we talk about in the curvequite a bit, typically, policing
(10:39):
is so far behind the times on anumber of things that, whether
it's businesses or otherorganizations that are
flourishing and police are solate to adopt those types of
practices, those non-traditionalthings that really develop and
define culture withinorganizations.
So I think we're moving in thatdirection and I'm seeing a lot
of that and I'm seeing a lot ofhunger for that as well from
(11:00):
particularly some of the newerleaders, and so I think that's
very positive in terms of thetrajectory that policing is
going in currently.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, no, I completely agree with this, and
every chief that I talk to now,wellness is literally the top of
the list it talks about.
You know they say hey, you know,to be effective you have to
have officers and to be able torecruit and retain and excite
and motivate and keep themhealthy, you know wellness is
(11:42):
the hundreds of traumaticincidents that they will
encounter over their career is.
You know, it's been refreshing,how, let's.
If wellness is one dimension ofthe job, another topic is kind
of how to train or how to, youknow, guide their officers to
(12:02):
interact with the public andwith the public at large in a
much more challengingenvironment where A they're
asked to do a lot more dealingwith mental illness.
Mental illness, they are kindof a safety net to deal with a
lot different topics than wasthe case 30 years ago, and then
(12:23):
they have to do it under a muchbrighter kind of microscope.
It's kind of a there's alwaysgoing to be a camera on them as
they, as they have to do theirjob.
So how, how, what's the?
What's the model going forwardfor how officers engage the
public?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Well, the expectations upon police have
grown so much and everybodycalls 911 for things that they
don't know who else to call.
So, for those non-lawenforcement related issues,
police are still called on anumber of things, and so it's
(13:03):
challenging because we're notwe're not trained to do all of
these other things that we'reasked to do as well as we
possibly could do it.
And with that comes, um, thechallenge of of still doing it
at such a high level that, uh,we, we're still expected to
perform and do it very, verywell for the communities that we
(13:24):
serve.
So those are very, very realissues for police.
So not only are we lawenforcers that's one small part
of policing but we're alsoadvocates for community safety.
We're doing a lot of things thathave nothing to do with
enforcing the law and theroutine, and I would estimate at
least 40 to 50 percent of thecalls that we received last year
(13:44):
at Denton, texas, had nothingto do with law enforcement.
There was, there were not callsfor service that necessarily
meant that we were going toenforce the law, but rather that
we were.
We were going to go respond tosome sort of social problem or
challenge that needed ourattention, and we were the front
line for that.
So if it meant that we weregoing to go and address an issue
(14:07):
of somebody experiencinghomelessness or or some sort of
neighborhood dispute or whateverit happened to be, chances are
it had nothing, literally hadnothing to do at all with us
writing a ticket or making anarrest, but rather finding some
sort of solution.
That um meant that there's someresolution that probably had
nothing to do with us, whetherthat's going to a mental health
(14:28):
care facility, whether it'ssocial services, whether it's
just people not getting along.
Whatever it happened to be,police are the ones that are
called, and so, with that, youhave to be extremely nimble and
flexible in how you do things,and I would argue that some
people say well, you know, itdoesn't take much to be a police
officer and, conversely, Iwould say it takes an incredible
amount of intelligence andflexibility to be an effective
(14:51):
police officer, because you haveto be able to adjust how you
react to things very quickly,quickly, and the public expects
you to be right 100% of the time, which we know is impossible.
It's inhuman to even ask that,but it's the public expectation,
or at least the mediaexpectation, and above all, that
(15:17):
you still have to somehowremain your humanity and stay
stoic throughout the most tragictypes of incidents that you're
going to see in your life and Ialways talk about in terms of
the wellness component and otherthings particularly.
You know, most people seesomewhere between two to four
major traumatic incidents intheir lifetime, and police see
dozens, if not hundreds, intheir career and that weighs on
(15:38):
a person.
But through it all, police haveto be professional, they have
to provide an incredibly highlevel of service and they have
to still remain or retain theirhumanity throughout, and that's
an impossible task.
So somehow, some way, we needto make sure that we continue to
support the folks that are outthere doing the job in a way
(15:59):
that allows them to go out andbe those great public servants
and still be okay to live theirlives as normal human beings.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
You know, and this is you know, when I talk to my
friends here in the SiliconValley I think I'm the only
person that's involved withemergency responders and I give
them that quote right, I talkabout the four traumatic
incidents that I'll go through,or a human, you know, a normal
citizen will go through, and toyour point, I've heard, I've
(16:31):
seen that range anywhere from200 to 400 across a 30 year
career for a police officer.
You know, how did youpersonally deal with it?
And to get personal, I mean,you think, and is it something
that you still have to deal with?
Right, because I would imagineyou have these images in your
(16:53):
mind, and images and visceralexperiences that are horrific.
How did you deal with it?
How do you deal with it now?
I think, doug, you're on mute,by the way.
(17:25):
Oh, yeah, sorry about that?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, so great question.
And I think what I do is I lookat, I take it back to when I
was a new police officer and Igo back to my first death
notification and I was young andenergetic and I loved policing.
Admittedly, I loved the showCops.
(17:49):
It was just something that Iwatched all the time and it was
exciting and it was all thethings that got you away from a
desk job and out and helpingpeople and arresting the bad guy
and all the excitement of whatthat world looked like, seeing
the bad guy and and all the allthe excitement of what that
world looked like.
And when I was the first tosign my death notification, you
(18:10):
know I didn't know how to reallygo about doing that and and how
that affected me and how I wentabout going about giving the
notification.
And then the subsequent letterthat the lady that I had to
notify that her, the mother thatI, that her daughter, had
passed away in a car crash, theletter that she had sent back to
(18:31):
the chief a few weeks later,really reshaped my vision and my
view of how impactful policecan be within the community.
And it didn't have anything todo with an arrest.
It didn't have anything to dowith with anything along that
line, but rather the empathy andthe humanity in it, and that
really changed my perspective ona lot of levels of how truly
(18:54):
powerful police are when they doit well and look.
Policing can be ugly at times.
We get in fights, we get shotat, we're forced to make
decisions, to potentially takethe life of another human being.
All these things are starkrealities and that's just the
way that is.
But most of the time we'redealing with people on a
(19:16):
one-on-one level.
That doesn't involve that levelof potential risk, but rather
just problem solving and tryingto figure out how we're going to
help people, because that's whywe join the profession you want
to help people.
So I think, as we, as I look atthat personally, I think that
really did shape how I wentthrough the rest of my career,
(19:37):
dealing with the traumas that Idid experience, whether it was
shooting scenes, whether it wassuicide scenes, giving CPR,
applying tourniquets, and thatdidn't work and it didn't go
well.
Watching a lot of death, seeinga lot of tragedy, with difficult
investigations that wereextremely sensitive and
heartbreaking and all thosethings that go with it, and so I
(19:59):
think I shaped it in the waythat I tried to keep a
perspective that my goal is totry and be there during the
darkest of times for people andwhat they're experiencing, and
if I can be helpful in that,then that's my role and it's a
heavy thing to carry, but ourcops do that daily and they do
(20:20):
it, I think, extremely wellgiven the circumstances.
Extremely well given thecircumstances and I think that's
where the that's where themotivation comes from is that
you are truly making adifference in the community that
you serve.
And it may not seem like it attimes, but those little, those
little moments of impact canmake a world of difference to
people, sometimes when you leastexpect it, and then I think
(20:42):
that's the win for policing.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
You know, I saw the friends who, a lot of friends
who are fire chiefs and policechiefs, and what's common is
their ability to rise to theoccasion, you know, whether it's
a death in the family or it'san illness or it's an emergency.
You know, I remember callinghim a fire chief and I'm like
(21:06):
you know, I think I was stuck ina ditch, you know, having slid
off, you know, in an ice storm,and the ability of an emergency
responder to absorb and thenengage in a way that's
constructive and empathetic isto your point, it's truly unique
(21:29):
.
I think maybe doctors andnurses would fall into that same
category.
And yet that side of policing,right, the serving the death
notice or the you know thethings that you know what I call
the non, you know the non, kindof, you know sensationalized
(21:50):
part of policing I think thepublic only sees if they have to
go through that experience.
And you know, and the goal isthat 90, you know, the vast
majority of people don't have togo through the experience.
Again, there'll be a questionhere somewhere.
Do you think that shows likeCops or Blue Bloods or CSU or
(22:15):
whatever it is, do you thinkthey do a good job of conveying
this, or to some degree, I feellike they only convey the action
parts of this and they and theyleave out the 50% of the calls
that you got that had nothing todo with enforcing the law.
They almost they skip over thatwhen it's such an important
(22:35):
part of what policing is.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Well, they do, because that's not.
I mean they obviously I wouldsay that they absolutely do and
and it's just doesn't it's notexciting for people to watch.
So you know, when you look atentertainment venues like that
and you see cops, and again, Iadmit I loved the show when I
was younger because it was theaction.
I mean I'm there to watch thecar chases and all the things
(23:01):
and it was exciting.
And you know, you don't, that'swhy there's, that's why there's
like action movies are sopopular, because there's things,
a lot of things happening andpeople are excited by that.
And I think it's difficult toconvey the real emotional
component of policing on a lotof levels and shows like those
(23:24):
are much more drama than theyare really truly reality in a
lot of ways, and that it doesn'tshow the behind the scenes
things of of the aftermath of ofthings or what leads up to
stuff where they're all.
They're really the humantragedy of of things.
I think there have been someshows that have done a better
job of it in terms of thereality of policing, but I think
(23:46):
they're really few and farbetween and emotionally I think
it's difficult to really capturethat in a way that's both
accurate and genuine on asignificant level, because there
are so many variations in howwe do what we do and nobody's
going to watch a show, forexample, of I gave the earlier
example of me giving my firstdeath notification.
(24:08):
I honestly think that nobodyreally would be that interested.
I mean, it's not exciting, it'snot splashy, it's just very,
it's very real moments betweentwo people.
That is part of what we doregularly.
It's and there are so manyquite frankly, mundane parts of
policing that are that are notexciting and and you know that's
(24:32):
all the paperwork and all thethings that we do on on the
regular that it you go frommundane to high level octane in
a matter of seconds at timeswhere a decision can make a life
or death moment out of it, andthat's the reality of policing
Most of the time.
What we do, I think, is veryimportant and it may not seem
(24:53):
exciting to most, but I wouldargue that's extremely important
in how we interact.
But that's not the case withthose shows, but that's not what
they're for.
I mean, they're there forentertainment, they're there for
the ratings and those kinds ofthings and that's the place they
have in society and we justleave it at that.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, no, I just.
It's the challenge and this ispart of the reason I do the
podcast.
The challenge is is that's howthe majority of public
understand that they're in?
Their understanding of policingis did they get a traffic
ticket and how did the policeofficer engage them?
B you know that would be thevast majority.
(25:32):
B they watch a TV show andthat's the vast majority.
There's a very small minoritywho deal with police in an
emergency situation and when youtalk to them their respect and
their admiration and their levelof grace and empathy goes way
up.
But that's just the vastminority.
That's just a small minority.
(26:01):
Only show you know, don't showthe empathetic and the
heart-wrenching side of where apolice officer really has to
step up and be that you know anddo an invaluable service.
They don't show that part ofthe or you know, challenging
times dealing with homelessnessor with mental illness that you
(26:22):
know that doesn't have a nice ora neat outcome of putting the
crook in jail, and that's what Iworry about.
Maybe is too strong of a word,but it concerns me because the
(26:42):
public's view of policing has astrong impact on when a turn.
You are one of the few folksI've had on the podcast that
really does a lot of work ateducation, police chiefs and
police executives, both atNorthwestern and what you do at
the Curve.
Tell me, you know, are policechiefs required and their
(27:07):
executives?
Are they required to go fortraining?
Is there a mandate that makesthem want to?
You know that have to go toNorthwestern to get a class or
is this all volunteer based?
Let me just ask that question.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, great question.
So typically, when you gothrough the process of becoming
a police chief, they meaning thehiring entity, the city manager
or city administrator orwhomever else will look at
qualifications as X, number ofyears, command level school,
which means Northwestern, theFBI Academy, the Southern Police
(27:42):
Institute, one of the bigschools, smip, which is offered
through the Police ExecutiveResearch Forum, which is not a
command school but it certainlyoffers an incredible educational
opportunity, educationalopportunity.
(28:09):
They look at those high-levelcourses really as a level of
education that should, in theory, provide for a great leader, to
give them those educational,learning-based components to get
them to understand things thatthey're going to have to do as a
police chief.
Now, whether that's accurate ornot, I don't know, I will say
(28:29):
my experience with Northwesternwas a great one.
I've talked to people whoroutinely go to the FBI Academy.
They rave about it.
Spi I mean all the commandschools really have their
strengths and there's value toeach one of them.
So I think that there arewin-win situations that you go
for sure, but I'm not sure thatit absolutely prepares you in a
(28:50):
way to take you to a next levelof leadership in a way that
today's policing might require.
So there are other things thatare at play, I think, as new
chiefs come into the fold thatgo beyond those types of command
school requirements, and Ithink as city managers and city
(29:12):
administrators start to look tofit, and how people really move
into those roles of policing,the police leadership roles
within their respectivecommunity.
I think it's really importantto get to know what drives that
person, their respectivecommunity.
I think it's really importantto get to know what drives that
person, what motivates thatperson, what their leadership
style is, how do they mentor orhow do they build a culture
(29:32):
within an organization.
And those aren't things thatare really covered by those
command schools.
They cover things likebudgeting and you know general
leadership and you knowretention and all the things
you've got to know to do the job.
But there are things that theycan't possibly cover, that are a
little more ephemeral andharder to kind of nail down,
(29:57):
that just aren't quite there yet.
So that's where I think myenjoyment and my work with the
curve is really part of that, inthat we look at non-traditional
ways to get our leaders tothink differently than how we've
always been trained, becausenot everything about policing is
contained within a policerelated textbook.
There are some amazing policetraining textbooks, a lot of
(30:21):
brilliant folks that havewritten on a lot of police
leadership or management topicsand that's amazing, that's great
.
But that doesn't mean it's it'swithin, like it's solely
contained within that ecosystem,because there are so many other
things the work that Simon does, the work that you know Brene
Brown's done or Mel Robbins orall these other people have done
(30:41):
outside the space.
You know the Jockos of theworld, the folks that have done
really great work outside ofpolicing.
There are things to be learnedthere about leadership and what
that looks like, and I think ifwe shy away from opening our
eyes and our minds to thosethings, I think we're doing
ourselves and our organizationsa disservice.
So I think that's where mypassion really comes in is
working through that angle oftaking those new leaders to a
(31:05):
whole different level that maybeI wasn't exposed to earlier on.
But I think today's leaders notonly are exposed to but really
crave or want to push boundaries, to take policing to that next
level.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Which it means they're not required, which it
means they're not required.
But if you want to move up andkind of and get that promotion
and aspire to be a chief,showing it on your resume is is
the incentive and so it's kindof like it's a it's a it's
voluntary.
But if you want to be a chiefyou need to show that
progression and I guess the hopeis is that city managers, the
(31:43):
hiring, the folks, the highercity managers or voters, in that
context, when they, when theyrun for sheriff, that they look
at those credentials as kind ofthe effort that that chief has
made, that wannabe chief hasmade to be in that position.
Let me ask a hard this will be.
I've never thought to ask thisquestion and it may be unfair.
And I've never thought to askthis question and it may be
(32:04):
unfair.
You, as you mentioned, norway orCanada or the UK, these are
top-down government, they'renational police forces, and so
the benefit that you get, ofcourse, is that you have a
consistent, they have oneacademy and one set of ways of
policing and we sell ourproducts all around the world
(32:31):
and I can feel that I can feelthat nationalistic kind of one
size fits all context, if youhad to build the US from scratch
, you could start over, right,you wouldn't from the the
militia turning into localpolice and whatnot.
You could start from scratch.
Would you build it?
How would you build it?
Would you build it with anational organization?
(32:53):
Would you build it with a stateorganization, or would you
think the way it's done today isthe optimal way of doing it?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
did I lose you?
Yeah, you're.
You're breaking up a little bit, but I'll do my best to answer
the question.
I think I would look at it from, I think, nationally, that we
should probably have, but Ithink, since I mean the united
states, the makeup of the us isso unique in that we have I mean
, we have all the states, andevery state is completely
(33:29):
different and every state hastheir own way of doing things,
and with that comes differentexpectations.
So there's really not a onesize fits all here, and that
would make it difficult.
I do think there are certainthings that people would
advocate for on a national level.
When it talks about, you know,hiring standards, perhaps, or
(33:50):
use of force, or, you know,decertification of officers,
there's a number of topics thatcan come up.
I suppose that people would saythat we need to have a national
standard on way that we're setup.
I don't think that would everbe possible.
So what we try and do is tryand create best practices,
particularly through the IACP,to create a way of saying you
(34:12):
know, these are the things thatwe we believe in in terms of how
policing, as a noble profession, should perform, based upon the
powers that we get from thepeople that we serve and if we
keep that as the root of ourdirection, our singular focus
(34:32):
and purpose of doing it in theway where we are good stewards
of that trust, because there'san immense amount of trust.
There's really no otherprofession that can take away
your rights Like a policeofficer can.
We can literally arrest someoneand take away their rights and
throw them in jail.
That's a big thing and itshould be taken very, very
(34:53):
seriously.
That's not a trivial matterwhatsoever.
So with that to quote a movie,with great power comes great
responsibility.
And if there are nationalstandards that can echo what
that great responsibility is andprovide those guidelines or
best practices, I think that'sthe direction that we will go or
will continue to go.
(35:13):
But the way we're set up, Ijust don't know that I see it
possible, given the variance instates.
You know Florida is notCalifornia and Colorado is not
New York, wyoming is not, youknow, ohio or Illinois.
So it's just they're all verydifferent in what, how people
live, what their expectationsare of the police, and that's
(35:35):
difficult to pin down in one onebest practice.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I think that's the case.
You know, I do think personallythat you could, the country
could, benefit from nationalstandards and some things, that
some of the topics that at leastall the people in that state
have, some, you know, minimumlevel of kind of base
requirements or some somethingthat is a standard.
I do applaud policing.
(36:19):
There's folks who listen.
There's many, many associations.
There's major city chiefs andinternational association of
chief of police, which you werea vice president.
There's major sheriffs, there'ssheriff's association.
So there's many associationsthat kind of fill those holes in
with with ongoing education andbest and kind of benchmarks and
(36:41):
best practices and whatnot, ofwhich the policing tries to do
its best to try to self educateand self um and self manage.
It's just difficult, I mean, at18,000 different ways of doing
policing and leadership.
It's not an easy thing, um,it's just not an easy thing Um
(37:01):
the um.
Well, I have.
You've been so generous withyour time, chief.
I've got one last question,which is we make a small
donation to a charity of yourchoice.
Love to be able to do that.
What charity can we make adonation to?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
too Well.
For me, it's the National LawEnforcement Officers Memorial
Fund.
I'm lucky enough to be anambassador with the National Law
Enforcement Officers MemorialFund.
I was given that opportunitythis year and I've just begun
some work with them, and I amextremely passionate about
wellness, as you've probablypicked up during this
conversation and supporting ourwomen and men that are out there
on the roads and streets anddoing all the things they do
(37:50):
every single day, as well asthose that have given the
ultimate sacrifice in the lineof duty and some friends that
have unfortunately passed in theline of duty, and those are
very difficult things.
So I'm very, very thankful tobe a part of the National Law
Enforcement Officers MemorialFund, and so that would be my
choice easily to help continueto support their incredible
(38:13):
mission, to help those that helpall of us.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Well, we're grateful for your time and thankful and
happy to make that donation.
Chief, Thank you again forspending some time with us.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Absolutely my pleasure.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
So, folks, as Chief Shoemaker kind of exits the
virtual stage, so to speak, youknow just a few kind of
reflections.
One is how the you know howpolicing is changing and Chief
(38:57):
Schumacher's efforts, whether itbe through Northwestern or the
Curve with Simon Sinek, theseare, there's a number of efforts
and initiatives that areunderway that are actually
helping police chiefs rise tothe challenge.
And I think in that newchallenge, in that challenge, as
Chief articulated, it's achallenge of wellness, how to
(39:20):
keep the men and women that dealwith horrific challenges,
mental challenges, how to keepthem well and healthy and
successful, how to get themready for a much greater,
expanded role than police had todeal with 20 years ago, and
(39:41):
certainly a much larger set ofissues that they you would see
on tv, you know, that are maybemore mundane but are equally, um
, if not more, important to thepublic dealing with domestic
disputes and mental illness, andyou know neighborhood disputes,
things that um, that whereyou're not arresting anyone but
you're there as a, as a, atrusted member of the community
(40:04):
and um and to solve problems andto help folks who are calling
for your help.
So, wrapping up again, you'vebeen listening and hopefully
enjoyed listening to me.
My name is Bob Plaschke and thisis First Response.
It is a podcast dedicated tounderstanding the stories behind
(40:28):
the people that wear a badge,the very brave first responders
more than a million out there inthe United States.
Pepperball, the company that Ihave the honor to be the CEO of,
and again Pepperball.
We deploy non-lethal tools thatallow police officers to do
(40:51):
their jobs but not have to usetheir guns and not have to
suffer, and keep themselves andthe public that they serve safe
Until next time.
Appreciate it and be safe outthere.
The front line of policing is loud, but the voices
behind it, you know they're alot louder and, I think, frankly
, a lot more interesting.
Hi, I'm Bob Plaschke and thisis First Response.
This is the number one podcastthat takes you behind the badge
and uncovers real stories andexperiences of first responders
from all walks of life and thetopics that shape public safety
(00:26):
today.
If you're curious about the guyor the gal behind the hero and
they are indeed truly heroes andthe topics that they care about
, take a listen.
This is kind of your front rowseat to hearing some of the
really interesting voices outthere and, more importantly, the
heroes.
This podcast is sponsored byPepperball, where I have the
honor to serve as CEO.
(00:47):
Pepperball creates unlethalalternatives to guns, at least
used to keep themselves and thepublic safe.
So today, super excited, veryhonored and excited to have
Chief Doug Shoemaker on.
(01:07):
Chief Shoemaker retired.
Spent many years in the line ofduty, 33 to be exact, most
recently as the chief of policefor the Denton, texas Police
Department.
He came through to that role asthe chief of police of the
Grand Junction in ColoradoPolice Department and then spent
(01:29):
almost the majority of his timein Jefferson City, missouri,
staff and command atNorthwestern University where I
attended so go cats is anexecutive at Peregrine, which is
(01:52):
a situation awareness and dataaggregation platform for public
safety Very successful base herewhere I live in the Silicon
Valley and is co-founded thecurve with Simon Sinek, which,
for those who follow leadershipand motivation, simon Sinek, one
of the top 10 TED Talk guysfantastic, very well known for
(02:17):
his inspirational speakingaround motivation, and I follow
him myself and so excited tohave Chief Shoemaker and myself
and so excited to have ChiefShoemaker, who actively
participates with Simon in termsof trying to influence
leadership in policing, kind ofpost-George Floyd.
So, chief, it's great to haveyou on the first question, for
(02:39):
you is a bit of a hard ball or afastball, I guess.
You know the challenge ofpolicing in the United States is
significant, and it's even moresignificant than the fact that
you've got 18,000 police chiefsin all shapes and sizes who come
(03:00):
through a variety of differenteducational paths.
You know there's not a nationalacademy, so to speak, and so
consistency is a challenge.
You know, what is yourperspective on the state of the
state of the quality of policechiefs in the United States from
a leadership perspective, fromtheir ability to execute in a
(03:23):
way that we want them to execute.
How would you think about that?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, great.
First question, and that's nota softball to start off with,
for sure.
You know it's unique.
The United States has 18,000plus police agencies and so it
is vastly different than some ofour neighbors across the pond,
if you will, whether it's the UKor Ireland, I mean, you know
even in Norway, all thesedifferent countries that have
(03:47):
national police services.
So every jurisdiction has apolice chief or sheriff and with
that comes 18,000 differentpersonalities and 18,000
different ways of doing things,because the communities are so
unique.
And you know, in my experienceI've been really lucky to get to
know a lot of people throughoutmy time with the ICP and
(04:08):
throughout just my work ingeneral, and it's funny to note
how differently everybodyapproaches it.
But a lot of it's really basedon the jurisdictions that they
serve.
And you know the word of fitreally comes into play in terms
of certain police chiefs thatare really great in one area may
(04:28):
not excel in another area.
You know, a big city chief maynot do as well in a smaller
municipality because of thechallenges that are there, and
vice versa, for example.
So, far and wide, the vastmajority of the chiefs that I've
met are there because they wantto do the right thing and they
want, they've accepted thatleadership role.
(04:48):
They understand the challengesthat go with it and truly, if
you're not willing to step up tothat role and take on those
challenges in a way that isforward thinking and in a way
that really protects thecommunity and protects the women
and men that serve alongsideyou, you probably shouldn't be
in the role.
It's not meant to be aretirement, it's not meant to be
(05:10):
easy.
And sure, I've met some folksthat maybe we have some
philosophical disagreements withon how to do that or the lack
of doing that in some cases.
But I think I've met so manygreat leaders and I feel really
privileged to have thatexperience.
So many great leaders and Ifeel really privileged to have
that experience.
So many great leaders that arereally trying to look to the
(05:37):
next generation of policing andsay how can we help them do it
better than we did?
And as I see, as time goes on,more and more retirements happen
, more and more younger, newerfolks that are coming through
those ranks because it's goingto happen.
Right, the opportunistic andthe idealism I think is really
starting to come through alittle bit about what the future
holds for policing.
And you know, obviously we wentthrough some challenges with
(06:00):
2020, covid, george Floyd, allthe things and that was an
extremely difficult time as apolice chief for all of us, but
we persevered, some of us stayed, some of us didn't, and those
of us that stayed through reallyhad a.
I think we were able to walkout of it with really a greater
understanding of what policinglooks like as we move forward,
(06:20):
and being a part of that was waswas difficult, but it was.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
It was an honor still you know um, um, unlike um, um,
and, and that all makes sense,and um and and for sure, the
that I, I don't I can't think ofthat many situations of police
chiefs or sheriffs that I've metwho didn't fit the bill as you
(06:45):
describe it right A deepcommitment to public safety and
to public service.
It's a thankless job most ofthe time and you're only
typically in the spotlight whensomething goes wrong.
And when it goes wrong, itusually goes wrong in a way that
the public has a tendency tooverreact to or to to sadly
(07:10):
assume the worst.
And so you're, you're, you'rekind of it's not easy.
It's not an easy job when youknow, as I've talked to chiefs,
there's a question heresomewhere, there's a question
here somewhere.
When I talk to chiefs, they talkabout the old school, which was
the.
You know, I'm going to ask you,I'm going to tell you and then
(07:30):
I'm going to make you and theold school was.
You know, look, I appreciate,you know you just had a
traumatic incident.
But you know what, get back up,up, get.
You know kind of get and getback on the job.
Right, you don't have much of achoice.
So it was a bit of old school,hard knocks um, tough love, um.
(07:51):
If you could articulate whatpolicing, um, you know the, what
policing of today or the futureshould look like, you know,
given those different umanalogies, how would you
articulate it?
Um, what would be the, the, the, the new way of policing and
how to articulate that.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, and you're exactly right.
In the 33 years I was on, Icertainly very keenly remember
when I began if there was somesort of major event, a traumatic
event, some sort of major event, a traumatic event, just the
things that we see daily inpolicing.
It was the suck it up kind ofattitude of you know, you're the
(08:31):
tough person, you got to fightthrough it.
There's no such thing, as youknow, having issues with this
stuff, this is what you're goingto see every day.
So you either can make it oryou can't, and so it was a
difficult challenge, I think, toget through, but it was really
just the way we did it.
To fast forward to today, and Ithink we've evolved in a lot of
(08:52):
ways, and I would say in a verypositive number of ways,
specifically with the holisticview of wellness of our men and
women that do the job out therein the first place wellness of
our men and women that do thejob out there in the first place
.
So wellness, for example, hasbecome a much more talked about
(09:13):
thing within policing, and it'snot an automatic assumption that
somebody's having some mentalbreakdown issues just because
they're experiencing some sortof trauma based upon what they
saw that day or that week or areexperiencing whatever else.
So there's a much more openconversation about that in
particular, which I think isvery healthy for organizations
to embrace that a bit and say,okay, how do we keep our people
(09:34):
not only physically safe bygiving them the body, armor, the
tools, all the things to go outand do the job physically to
keep them safe, but alsopsychologically and mentally, or
emotionally job physically tokeep them safe, but also
psychologically and mentally.
How do our emotionally, how dowe keep them safe to make sure
that we, that they know that wehave their backs to go out and
do the job, and that and thatcan be just as important as the
physical piece, because ifofficers feel like they aren't
(09:58):
supported to go and do what theyknow they need to do, uh, it's
difficult to go out and do thejob.
In the first place, you'realready dealing with the
challenges out there.
Plus, then you're dealing withthe challenges internally where
you don't know if you're goingto get written up or fired or
who knows what if you go out andjust simply do your job.
So I think that evolution hasbeen much needed and I think
(10:18):
it's certainly much moreprevalent today than it ever has
been in policing, and I thinkthat's that's a very good thing
for where our organizationsstand.
Um, it's, it's it's not a oldschool profession anymore, it's.
It really truly needs to evolveand, as as Simon talks about
and we talk about in the curvequite a bit, typically, policing
(10:39):
is so far behind the times on anumber of things that, whether
it's businesses or otherorganizations that are
flourishing and police are solate to adopt those types of
practices, those non-traditionalthings that really develop and
define culture withinorganizations.
So I think we're moving in thatdirection and I'm seeing a lot
of that and I'm seeing a lot ofhunger for that as well from
(11:00):
particularly some of the newerleaders, and so I think that's
very positive in terms of thetrajectory that policing is
going in currently.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, no, I completely agree with this, and
every chief that I talk to now,wellness is literally the top of
the list it talks about.
You know they say hey, you know,to be effective you have to
have officers and to be able torecruit and retain and excite
and motivate and keep themhealthy, you know wellness is
(11:42):
the hundreds of traumaticincidents that they will
encounter over their career is.
You know, it's been refreshing,how, let's.
If wellness is one dimension ofthe job, another topic is kind
of how to train or how to, youknow, guide their officers to
(12:02):
interact with the public andwith the public at large in a
much more challengingenvironment where A they're
asked to do a lot more dealingwith mental illness.
Mental illness, they are kindof a safety net to deal with a
lot different topics than wasthe case 30 years ago, and then
(12:23):
they have to do it under a muchbrighter kind of microscope.
It's kind of a there's alwaysgoing to be a camera on them as
they, as they have to do theirjob.
So how, how, what's the?
What's the model going forwardfor how officers engage the
public?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Well, the expectations upon police have
grown so much and everybodycalls 911 for things that they
don't know who else to call.
So, for those non-lawenforcement related issues,
police are still called on anumber of things, and so it's
(13:03):
challenging because we're notwe're not trained to do all of
these other things that we'reasked to do as well as we
possibly could do it.
And with that comes, um, thechallenge of of still doing it
at such a high level that, uh,we, we're still expected to
perform and do it very, verywell for the communities that we
(13:24):
serve.
So those are very, very realissues for police.
So not only are we lawenforcers that's one small part
of policing but we're alsoadvocates for community safety.
We're doing a lot of things thathave nothing to do with
enforcing the law and theroutine, and I would estimate at
least 40 to 50 percent of thecalls that we received last year
(13:44):
at Denton, texas, had nothingto do with law enforcement.
There was, there were not callsfor service that necessarily
meant that we were going toenforce the law, but rather that
we were.
We were going to go respond tosome sort of social problem or
challenge that needed ourattention, and we were the front
line for that.
So if it meant that we weregoing to go and address an issue
(14:07):
of somebody experiencinghomelessness or or some sort of
neighborhood dispute or whateverit happened to be, chances are
it had nothing, literally hadnothing to do at all with us
writing a ticket or making anarrest, but rather finding some
sort of solution.
That um meant that there's someresolution that probably had
nothing to do with us, whetherthat's going to a mental health
(14:28):
care facility, whether it'ssocial services, whether it's
just people not getting along.
Whatever it happened to be,police are the ones that are
called, and so, with that, youhave to be extremely nimble and
flexible in how you do things,and I would argue that some
people say well, you know, itdoesn't take much to be a police
officer and, conversely, Iwould say it takes an incredible
amount of intelligence andflexibility to be an effective
(14:51):
police officer, because you haveto be able to adjust how you
react to things very quickly,quickly, and the public expects
you to be right 100% of the time, which we know is impossible.
It's inhuman to even ask that,but it's the public expectation,
or at least the mediaexpectation, and above all, that
(15:17):
you still have to somehowremain your humanity and stay
stoic throughout the most tragictypes of incidents that you're
going to see in your life and Ialways talk about in terms of
the wellness component and otherthings particularly.
You know, most people seesomewhere between two to four
major traumatic incidents intheir lifetime, and police see
dozens, if not hundreds, intheir career and that weighs on
(15:38):
a person.
But through it all, police haveto be professional, they have
to provide an incredibly highlevel of service and they have
to still remain or retain theirhumanity throughout, and that's
an impossible task.
So somehow, some way, we needto make sure that we continue to
support the folks that are outthere doing the job in a way
(15:59):
that allows them to go out andbe those great public servants
and still be okay to live theirlives as normal human beings.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
You know, and this is you know, when I talk to my
friends here in the SiliconValley I think I'm the only
person that's involved withemergency responders and I give
them that quote right, I talkabout the four traumatic
incidents that I'll go through,or a human, you know, a normal
citizen will go through, and toyour point, I've heard, I've
(16:31):
seen that range anywhere from200 to 400 across a 30 year
career for a police officer.
You know, how did youpersonally deal with it?
And to get personal, I mean,you think, and is it something
that you still have to deal with?
Right, because I would imagineyou have these images in your
(16:53):
mind, and images and visceralexperiences that are horrific.
How did you deal with it?
How do you deal with it now?
I think, doug, you're on mute,by the way.
(17:25):
Oh, yeah, sorry about that?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, so great question.
And I think what I do is I lookat, I take it back to when I
was a new police officer and Igo back to my first death
notification and I was young andenergetic and I loved policing.
Admittedly, I loved the showCops.
(17:49):
It was just something that Iwatched all the time and it was
exciting and it was all thethings that got you away from a
desk job and out and helpingpeople and arresting the bad guy
and all the excitement of whatthat world looked like, seeing
the bad guy and and all the allthe excitement of what that
world looked like.
And when I was the first tosign my death notification, you
(18:10):
know I didn't know how to reallygo about doing that and and how
that affected me and how I wentabout going about giving the
notification.
And then the subsequent letterthat the lady that I had to
notify that her, the mother thatI, that her daughter, had
passed away in a car crash, theletter that she had sent back to
(18:31):
the chief a few weeks later,really reshaped my vision and my
view of how impactful policecan be within the community.
And it didn't have anything todo with an arrest.
It didn't have anything to dowith with anything along that
line, but rather the empathy andthe humanity in it, and that
really changed my perspective ona lot of levels of how truly
(18:54):
powerful police are when they doit well and look.
Policing can be ugly at times.
We get in fights, we get shotat, we're forced to make
decisions, to potentially takethe life of another human being.
All these things are starkrealities and that's just the
way that is.
But most of the time we'redealing with people on a
(19:16):
one-on-one level.
That doesn't involve that levelof potential risk, but rather
just problem solving and tryingto figure out how we're going to
help people, because that's whywe join the profession you want
to help people.
So I think, as we, as I look atthat personally, I think that
really did shape how I wentthrough the rest of my career,
(19:37):
dealing with the traumas that Idid experience, whether it was
shooting scenes, whether it wassuicide scenes, giving CPR,
applying tourniquets, and thatdidn't work and it didn't go
well.
Watching a lot of death, seeinga lot of tragedy, with difficult
investigations that wereextremely sensitive and
heartbreaking and all thosethings that go with it, and so I
(19:59):
think I shaped it in the waythat I tried to keep a
perspective that my goal is totry and be there during the
darkest of times for people andwhat they're experiencing, and
if I can be helpful in that,then that's my role and it's a
heavy thing to carry, but ourcops do that daily and they do
(20:20):
it, I think, extremely wellgiven the circumstances.
Extremely well given thecircumstances and I think that's
where the that's where themotivation comes from is that
you are truly making adifference in the community that
you serve.
And it may not seem like it attimes, but those little, those
little moments of impact canmake a world of difference to
people, sometimes when you leastexpect it, and then I think
(20:42):
that's the win for policing.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
You know, I saw the friends who, a lot of friends
who are fire chiefs and policechiefs, and what's common is
their ability to rise to theoccasion, you know, whether it's
a death in the family or it'san illness or it's an emergency.
You know, I remember callinghim a fire chief and I'm like
(21:06):
you know, I think I was stuck ina ditch, you know, having slid
off, you know, in an ice storm,and the ability of an emergency
responder to absorb and thenengage in a way that's
constructive and empathetic isto your point, it's truly unique
(21:29):
.
I think maybe doctors andnurses would fall into that same
category.
And yet that side of policing,right, the serving the death
notice or the you know thethings that you know what I call
the non, you know the non, kindof, you know sensationalized
(21:50):
part of policing I think thepublic only sees if they have to
go through that experience.
And you know, and the goal isthat 90, you know, the vast
majority of people don't have togo through the experience.
Again, there'll be a questionhere somewhere.
Do you think that shows likeCops or Blue Bloods or CSU or
(22:15):
whatever it is, do you thinkthey do a good job of conveying
this, or to some degree, I feellike they only convey the action
parts of this and they and theyleave out the 50% of the calls
that you got that had nothing todo with enforcing the law.
They almost they skip over thatwhen it's such an important
(22:35):
part of what policing is.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Well, they do, because that's not.
I mean they obviously I wouldsay that they absolutely do and
and it's just doesn't it's notexciting for people to watch.
So you know, when you look atentertainment venues like that
and you see cops, and again, Iadmit I loved the show when I
was younger because it was theaction.
I mean I'm there to watch thecar chases and all the things
(23:01):
and it was exciting.
And you know, you don't, that'swhy there's, that's why there's
like action movies are sopopular, because there's things,
a lot of things happening andpeople are excited by that.
And I think it's difficult toconvey the real emotional
component of policing on a lotof levels and shows like those
(23:24):
are much more drama than theyare really truly reality in a
lot of ways, and that it doesn'tshow the behind the scenes
things of of the aftermath of ofthings or what leads up to
stuff where they're all.
They're really the humantragedy of of things.
I think there have been someshows that have done a better
job of it in terms of thereality of policing, but I think
(23:46):
they're really few and farbetween and emotionally I think
it's difficult to really capturethat in a way that's both
accurate and genuine on asignificant level, because there
are so many variations in howwe do what we do and nobody's
going to watch a show, forexample, of I gave the earlier
example of me giving my firstdeath notification.
(24:08):
I honestly think that nobodyreally would be that interested.
I mean, it's not exciting, it'snot splashy, it's just very,
it's very real moments betweentwo people.
That is part of what we doregularly.
It's and there are so manyquite frankly, mundane parts of
policing that are that are notexciting and and you know that's
(24:32):
all the paperwork and all thethings that we do on on the
regular that it you go frommundane to high level octane in
a matter of seconds at timeswhere a decision can make a life
or death moment out of it, andthat's the reality of policing
Most of the time.
What we do, I think, is veryimportant and it may not seem
(24:53):
exciting to most, but I wouldargue that's extremely important
in how we interact.
But that's not the case withthose shows, but that's not what
they're for.
I mean, they're there forentertainment, they're there for
the ratings and those kinds ofthings and that's the place they
have in society and we justleave it at that.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, no, I just.
It's the challenge and this ispart of the reason I do the
podcast.
The challenge is is that's howthe majority of public
understand that they're in?
Their understanding of policingis did they get a traffic
ticket and how did the policeofficer engage them?
B you know that would be thevast majority.
(25:32):
B they watch a TV show andthat's the vast majority.
There's a very small minoritywho deal with police in an
emergency situation and when youtalk to them their respect and
their admiration and their levelof grace and empathy goes way
up.
But that's just the vastminority.
That's just a small minority.
(26:01):
Only show you know, don't showthe empathetic and the
heart-wrenching side of where apolice officer really has to
step up and be that you know anddo an invaluable service.
They don't show that part ofthe or you know, challenging
times dealing with homelessnessor with mental illness that you
(26:22):
know that doesn't have a nice ora neat outcome of putting the
crook in jail, and that's what Iworry about.
Maybe is too strong of a word,but it concerns me because the
(26:42):
public's view of policing has astrong impact on when a turn.
You are one of the few folksI've had on the podcast that
really does a lot of work ateducation, police chiefs and
police executives, both atNorthwestern and what you do at
the Curve.
Tell me, you know, are policechiefs required and their
(27:07):
executives?
Are they required to go fortraining?
Is there a mandate that makesthem want to?
You know that have to go toNorthwestern to get a class or
is this all volunteer based?
Let me just ask that question.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, great question.
So typically, when you gothrough the process of becoming
a police chief, they meaning thehiring entity, the city manager
or city administrator orwhomever else will look at
qualifications as X, number ofyears, command level school,
which means Northwestern, theFBI Academy, the Southern Police
(27:42):
Institute, one of the bigschools, smip, which is offered
through the Police ExecutiveResearch Forum, which is not a
command school but it certainlyoffers an incredible educational
opportunity, educationalopportunity.
(28:09):
They look at those high-levelcourses really as a level of
education that should, in theory, provide for a great leader, to
give them those educational,learning-based components to get
them to understand things thatthey're going to have to do as a
police chief.
Now, whether that's accurate ornot, I don't know, I will say
(28:29):
my experience with Northwesternwas a great one.
I've talked to people whoroutinely go to the FBI Academy.
They rave about it.
Spi I mean all the commandschools really have their
strengths and there's value toeach one of them.
So I think that there arewin-win situations that you go
for sure, but I'm not sure thatit absolutely prepares you in a
(28:50):
way to take you to a next levelof leadership in a way that
today's policing might require.
So there are other things thatare at play, I think, as new
chiefs come into the fold thatgo beyond those types of command
school requirements, and Ithink as city managers and city
(29:12):
administrators start to look tofit, and how people really move
into those roles of policing,the police leadership roles
within their respectivecommunity.
I think it's really importantto get to know what drives that
person, their respectivecommunity.
I think it's really importantto get to know what drives that
person, what motivates thatperson, what their leadership
style is, how do they mentor orhow do they build a culture
(29:32):
within an organization.
And those aren't things thatare really covered by those
command schools.
They cover things likebudgeting and you know general
leadership and you knowretention and all the things
you've got to know to do the job.
But there are things that theycan't possibly cover, that are a
little more ephemeral andharder to kind of nail down,
(29:57):
that just aren't quite there yet.
So that's where I think myenjoyment and my work with the
curve is really part of that, inthat we look at non-traditional
ways to get our leaders tothink differently than how we've
always been trained, becausenot everything about policing is
contained within a policerelated textbook.
There are some amazing policetraining textbooks, a lot of
(30:21):
brilliant folks that havewritten on a lot of police
leadership or management topicsand that's amazing, that's great
.
But that doesn't mean it's it'swithin, like it's solely
contained within that ecosystem,because there are so many other
things the work that Simon does, the work that you know Brene
Brown's done or Mel Robbins orall these other people have done
(30:41):
outside the space.
You know the Jockos of theworld, the folks that have done
really great work outside ofpolicing.
There are things to be learnedthere about leadership and what
that looks like, and I think ifwe shy away from opening our
eyes and our minds to thosethings, I think we're doing
ourselves and our organizationsa disservice.
So I think that's where mypassion really comes in is
working through that angle oftaking those new leaders to a
(31:05):
whole different level that maybeI wasn't exposed to earlier on.
But I think today's leaders notonly are exposed to but really
crave or want to push boundaries, to take policing to that next
level.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Which it means they're not required, which it
means they're not required.
But if you want to move up andkind of and get that promotion
and aspire to be a chief,showing it on your resume is is
the incentive and so it's kindof like it's a it's a it's
voluntary.
But if you want to be a chiefyou need to show that
progression and I guess the hopeis is that city managers, the
(31:43):
hiring, the folks, the highercity managers or voters, in that
context, when they, when theyrun for sheriff, that they look
at those credentials as kind ofthe effort that that chief has
made, that wannabe chief hasmade to be in that position.
Let me ask a hard this will be.
I've never thought to ask thisquestion and it may be unfair.
And I've never thought to askthis question and it may be
(32:04):
unfair.
You, as you mentioned, norway orCanada or the UK, these are
top-down government, they'renational police forces, and so
the benefit that you get, ofcourse, is that you have a
consistent, they have oneacademy and one set of ways of
policing and we sell ourproducts all around the world
(32:31):
and I can feel that I can feelthat nationalistic kind of one
size fits all context, if youhad to build the US from scratch
, you could start over, right,you wouldn't from the the
militia turning into localpolice and whatnot.
You could start from scratch.
Would you build it?
How would you build it?
Would you build it with anational organization?
(32:53):
Would you build it with a stateorganization, or would you
think the way it's done today isthe optimal way of doing it?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
did I lose you?
Yeah, you're.
You're breaking up a little bit, but I'll do my best to answer
the question.
I think I would look at it from, I think, nationally, that we
should probably have, but Ithink, since I mean the united
states, the makeup of the us isso unique in that we have I mean
, we have all the states, andevery state is completely
(33:29):
different and every state hastheir own way of doing things,
and with that comes differentexpectations.
So there's really not a onesize fits all here, and that
would make it difficult.
I do think there are certainthings that people would
advocate for on a national level.
When it talks about, you know,hiring standards, perhaps, or
(33:50):
use of force, or, you know,decertification of officers,
there's a number of topics thatcan come up.
I suppose that people would saythat we need to have a national
standard on way that we're setup.
I don't think that would everbe possible.
So what we try and do is tryand create best practices,
particularly through the IACP,to create a way of saying you
(34:12):
know, these are the things thatwe we believe in in terms of how
policing, as a noble profession, should perform, based upon the
powers that we get from thepeople that we serve and if we
keep that as the root of ourdirection, our singular focus
(34:32):
and purpose of doing it in theway where we are good stewards
of that trust, because there'san immense amount of trust.
There's really no otherprofession that can take away
your rights Like a policeofficer can.
We can literally arrest someoneand take away their rights and
throw them in jail.
That's a big thing and itshould be taken very, very
(34:53):
seriously.
That's not a trivial matterwhatsoever.
So with that to quote a movie,with great power comes great
responsibility.
And if there are nationalstandards that can echo what
that great responsibility is andprovide those guidelines or
best practices, I think that'sthe direction that we will go or
will continue to go.
(35:13):
But the way we're set up, Ijust don't know that I see it
possible, given the variance instates.
You know Florida is notCalifornia and Colorado is not
New York, wyoming is not, youknow, ohio or Illinois.
So it's just they're all verydifferent in what, how people
live, what their expectationsare of the police, and that's
(35:35):
difficult to pin down in one onebest practice.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
I think that's the case.
You know, I do think personallythat you could, the country
could, benefit from nationalstandards and some things, that
some of the topics that at leastall the people in that state
have, some, you know, minimumlevel of kind of base
requirements or some somethingthat is a standard.
I do applaud policing.
(36:19):
There's folks who listen.
There's many, many associations.
There's major city chiefs andinternational association of
chief of police, which you werea vice president.
There's major sheriffs, there'ssheriff's association.
So there's many associationsthat kind of fill those holes in
with with ongoing education andbest and kind of benchmarks and
(36:41):
best practices and whatnot, ofwhich the policing tries to do
its best to try to self educateand self um and self manage.
It's just difficult, I mean, at18,000 different ways of doing
policing and leadership.
It's not an easy thing, um,it's just not an easy thing Um
(37:01):
the um.
Well, I have.
You've been so generous withyour time, chief.
I've got one last question,which is we make a small
donation to a charity of yourchoice.
Love to be able to do that.
What charity can we make adonation to?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
too Well.
For me, it's the National LawEnforcement Officers Memorial
Fund.
I'm lucky enough to be anambassador with the National Law
Enforcement Officers MemorialFund.
I was given that opportunitythis year and I've just begun
some work with them, and I amextremely passionate about
wellness, as you've probablypicked up during this
conversation and supporting ourwomen and men that are out there
on the roads and streets anddoing all the things they do
(37:50):
every single day, as well asthose that have given the
ultimate sacrifice in the lineof duty and some friends that
have unfortunately passed in theline of duty, and those are
very difficult things.
So I'm very, very thankful tobe a part of the National Law
Enforcement Officers MemorialFund, and so that would be my
choice easily to help continueto support their incredible
(38:13):
mission, to help those that helpall of us.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Well, we're grateful for your time and thankful and
happy to make that donation.
Chief, Thank you again forspending some time with us.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Absolutely my pleasure.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
So, folks, as Chief Shoemaker kind of exits the
virtual stage, so to speak, youknow just a few kind of
reflections.
One is how the you know howpolicing is changing and Chief
(38:57):
Schumacher's efforts, whether itbe through Northwestern or the
Curve with Simon Sinek, theseare, there's a number of efforts
and initiatives that areunderway that are actually
helping police chiefs rise tothe challenge.
And I think in that newchallenge, in that challenge, as
Chief articulated, it's achallenge of wellness, how to
(39:20):
keep the men and women that dealwith horrific challenges,
mental challenges, how to keepthem well and healthy and
successful, how to get themready for a much greater,
expanded role than police had todeal with 20 years ago, and
(39:41):
certainly a much larger set ofissues that they you would see
on tv, you know, that are maybemore mundane but are equally, um
, if not more, important to thepublic dealing with domestic
disputes and mental illness, andyou know neighborhood disputes,
things that um, that whereyou're not arresting anyone but
you're there as a, as a, atrusted member of the community
(40:04):
and um and to solve problems andto help folks who are calling
for your help.
So, wrapping up again, you'vebeen listening and hopefully
enjoyed listening to me.
My name is Bob Plaschke and thisis First Response.
It is a podcast dedicated tounderstanding the stories behind
(40:28):
the people that wear a badge,the very brave first responders
more than a million out there inthe United States.
Pepperball, the company that Ihave the honor to be the CEO of,
and again Pepperball.
We deploy non-lethal tools thatallow police officers to do
(40:51):
their jobs but not have to usetheir guns and not have to
suffer, and keep themselves andthe public that they serve safe
Until next time.
Appreciate it and be safe outthere.
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