No BS, Just Therapy | A Real Talk Episode on Anxiety with Becca Upton - Generational Tea

Episode Transcript
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Kaina G (00:11):
really excited to get your insights today.
So welcome everybody toGenerational Tea and welcome
Becca.
All the way from Where inBritain did you say you're from?
Ham, Ingham.
Like Robin Hood, if you knowRobin Hood.
That's, yeah, that's, that'swhat people, that's helpful.
Thank you.
Alright, well just so thelisteners can get to know you,

(00:33):
do you just want to give them aquick background on.
And I guess just who you are,what you like to do, and your
qualifications as a therapistbefore we dive into the really
good questions.

Becca (00:43):
Yeah.
So obviously I'm Becca.
I am the no BS therapist.
I'm try to always be a likerealistic, honest kind of
person.
I think a lot of wellbeing stuffout there online now can be very
like fluffy and cheesy and overthe top.
And like in the real world,people don't have time to be
doing like an hour of journalingevery night and going out for a

(01:04):
walk for an hour every day andstuff like that.
So I try and be a bit more inthe real world kind of thing.
I'm quite sweary obviously Iwon't be swearing today, but
generally I'm swearing a lot andthat's just what I'm like.
And yeah, I've got a master's incounseling and psychotherapy,
integrative counseling andpsychotherapy.

(01:25):
So that was a three year coursethat I did.
And yeah, I've been, like Isaid, uh, qualified for about
nine, 10 months now, so, yeah.
Nice.

Kaina G (01:34):
You're almost at your one year anniversary.
Yeah.
That's so exciting.
I'm curious what made you wannaget into therapy specifically?
And also kind of how you wereled to develop your, like no BS
brand, because I love it, weneed more of that every day, but
I want to hear like how you kindof got on this journey.

Becca (01:50):
So specifically on the therapy side of things, it's
definitely something that took awhile to come through.
Like I always wanted to be in ajob that was helping people and
that was people facing.
But I just like, I kind of wentthrough, I recycled through a
few ideas when I was younger.
Um, so I thought about maybebeing a primary school teacher

(02:11):
'cause my mum was one, but thenI was like.
I don't really want to like,have to like wrangle kids and
make them behave and stuff.
That's not really my vibe.
So I said, okay, maybe not that.
And then I got really into likeperforming arts in like my late
teens, and considered being likea performer of some kind.
But then I was like, oh, I don'treally wanna be like touring

(02:33):
around the country or likeunsure of work and stuff like
that.
So we just kind of left that.
And then in the UK we do what wecall A Levels.
So the last two years before uniand you have to pick, we used to
have to pick four options.
So I'd picked my first three andI didn't know what to pick for
my fourth, so I was like, I'lljust go with psychology.
It seems interesting, I'll justgo for it.

(02:54):
So this was when I was like 16.
and then took it and reallyenjoyed it in the first year and
ended up actually dropping.
You like drop one.
And just go with three beforeyou go into uni and actually
ended up dropping one of theother topics, not psychology.
Nice.
And just found it so, sointeresting how our brains work.
And then yeah, just kind ofsearched up how do I find a job

(03:16):
using psychology but helpingpeople.
And it said counseling andtherapy and actually that seemed
to make a lot of sense in mymind.
And then from there I didpsychology undergrad.
I knew I'd have to do morestuff.
I took two years out'cause I'dhad enough of education for a
while.
I just needed a break.
And then I did my three yearmasters.

(03:37):
And that wrapped about a yearago.
Um, so yeah, I think the therapystuff makes sense now.
Um, yeah.
But it took a bit of a while toget to, And then, yeah, on the
no BS side of things, I thinkI've always been this way as a
person kind of thing.
I've always been a, like, nodrama or gossip and like, just
straightforward kind of person.

(03:57):
But when you're first practicingwith clients in placement, it's
like, oh, I've gotta be superprofessional.
And to you that means like blankslate.
And like I'm wearing all thesmart clothes and like I, I
can't really show much of myselfor say anything about myself and
stuff like that.
And then over time, I wouldstart to say like, in a first

(04:18):
session.
Oh, I sometimes swear a bit insessions.
Are you okay with that?
And I never had anyone say no,but I was like, but if anyone
does say no, I've then gottakeep track of who I can and
can't swear in sessions with,and there's already a million
things that you have to keeptrack of in session anyway.
So then I was like, okay, let'sjust say it.
And luckily I was at a placementwhere there were like quite a

(04:40):
few people there, so if someonedidn't want me, they could just
be like referred to someoneelse.
and again, no one ever said thatit was a problem.
Most people will say either, no,it's fine.
I'm not bothered about it.
Or they'll say, oh good, thatmeans I can swear to, and they
actually like it kind of thing.
Yeah.
So it's helpful for them.
But even then, yeah, I justcycled through a few ideas and I

(05:01):
was kind of writing likedirectories and stuff online and
then a phrase kept coming up oflike, no fluff, no nonsense, no
bs.
And then from there it just likeseemed to make sense.
And yes, since then I've been anOBS therapist.

Kaina G (05:17):
That's awesome.
from what I can tell about yourpersonality, it definitely fits
and well.
I just love that.
'cause in my experience withtherapy, it's always been a lot
easier for me to open up tosomebody when I feel like
they're more personal and moreaccessible on that level.
And I would love it if mytherapist like swear like a
sailor.
I feel like that would bring anelement of levity to the therapy

(05:37):
that would actually help me.
But yeah, I, I really do thinkthat's so cool.
And I know you're just startingon your journey, but I feel like
this is gonna resonate with alot of people, so that's really
awesome.
Yeah,

Becca (05:46):
yeah, definitely.
I think you have an idea of atherapist and it's normally like
a 60-year-old woman in a reallysmart outfit and there's the
clipboard and the glasses andthe couch and stuff and yeah, I
would never want to go tosomething like that myself.
So it's kind of the kind ofperson that I would also want to
go to as well, like I said, soyeah.
Yeah, exactly.

Ronnie G (06:08):
Yeah.
So, you actually work with a lotof chronic worriers and
overthinkers.
Was that ever you at one point?

Becca (06:16):
In some senses, yes.
I think for me, the overthinkingand the worrying side of things,
yes.
I think, I've don't think I'veever had anxiety to a, like a
potentially diagnosable level.
Mm-hmm.
But I would say I've kind ofbeen a different version of it
where I've definitely had like adepressive episode.

(06:37):
Again, wasn't diagnosed, butlooking back on it, it was.
But definitely a lot of thesigns have been there from the
start.
Like for me.
If I had a, something in mymind, the plan had to be
followed, and if it didn't gofollowing that, then I would get
really anxious and worried andstuff like that.

(06:58):
Like there's an idea in my mindof me and my partner, were dog
sitting for a friend who livedelsewhere, lived a couple of
hours away, and we were gonnaget the bus into the city that
day and just explore and stuff.
And we didn't get on the rightbus like we had, oh yeah, we'll
get on this one at this time.
And then I didn't know if it wasthe right one to get on or not

(07:20):
when it arrived.
So I was like, oh no, let's notget on it.
Let's wait a sec.
And we weren't going toanything.
We didn't have anything bookedin.
We weren't gonna be late foranything.
We were just going into town forthe day.
But still, I was like, oh myGod, that was the one we were
supposed to get on.
Oh my God, we're gonna be latenow.
And And my partner was like, butthere's another one in 20
minutes.
We're just.
Wait for the next one, but in mymind it was like, oh, but we've

(07:42):
missed it.
Like we didn't follow the plankind of thing.
So that has always been a bit ofa thing for me.
And then as well in like mymasters going through the
therapy training, you realize alot about yourself as well.
And I realized I have quite abig thing around like
achievement and success andgrades and stuff like that.

(08:03):
Where it wasn't like disastrousfor me.
Again, I wasn't having likeanxiety attacks or panic attacks
necessarily, but if I didn't getthe grade that I wanted, it
would be really, reallydifficult.
And my expectation of like doingthe bare minimum for an
assignment was actually like.
Enough to get top marks, but inmy mind it was like the bare

(08:26):
minimum.

Kaina G (08:27):
Yeah.

Becca (08:27):
But I've been able to work on it a little bit.
And one of the things thatreally helped me when I was
studying was I would never tellpeople my actual grade after a
while because then they wouldhave a judgment on it, and that
was then in like their hands.
So instead of saying the actualnumber, I would then just say I
was happy with it, or I wasn'thappy with it, or it was what I
expected, or something likethat.

(08:48):
And just how I felt about it,because then that becomes the
most important thing, not thejudgment of someone else and a
number kind of thing.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's something that I'mactively working on still and
I've had to work on, but I, Ithink that's part of it that
helps.
I have been in that place and Iknow how your brain goes to

(09:10):
these crazy, insane places, butyou know that it's not real and
you know that it isn't like apossibility that will happen.
But still in that moment itfeels completely real and like
it could happen and like theworld is gonna end basically.
So.
Mm-hmm.
I know how frustrating it can beas well of like, I know that's
not gonna happen, but my braingenuinely thinks it's a

(09:32):
possibility at the same time, soYeah.
Yeah.
I think that's a big help forpeople too.

Kaina G (09:36):
Yeah.
I definitely struggle with likea lot of stuff that you just
talked about and catastrophizingthings in the moment and stuff
like that.
And I really do feel like, andwe talk a lot about how things
have changed over generations onthis podcast.
It's like tea we've been talkinga lot about like social media
and tech and just like really,like younger generations like

(09:58):
Gen Z, millennials.
And I really do feel like we'relike worrying and overthinking
way more than any othergeneration.
And I feel like it kind of makessense in that way because like
with all this.
Technology and social media,like we're, we're more connected
than ever, but really we're justlike more overloaded with
information more than ever.
Mm-hmm.
And I kind of feel likenavigating that information, at
least like for me specifically,I feel like that's kind of fed

(10:19):
into like my overthinking and mychronic worrying is'cause
there's so much happening andI'm worrying about all this and
X, Y, and Z.
It's just'cause we're processingso much information every day.
So I really do feel like there'sa, I guess a trend that people
are more in their heads thanever and worried more than ever
and overthinking more than ever,which makes sense.
Would you agree with that?

Becca (10:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think part of it is that senseof like, whatever you experience
your brain takes as evidence,right?
And obviously most of the timeonline you only see the positive
side of things.
So your brain will just see allthat stuff and subtly think,
well, everyone's doing reallywell and really positively.
And obviously every single dayof my life isn't always

(10:58):
positive.
I have good days and bad days,so.
It must mean that I'm behindeveryone else or everyone's
doing so much better than me orwhatever else.
When in reality you are justseeing any part of it, but your
brain in a really subtle, likesubconscious way sees that
information in a different way.
So yeah, it's this idea of like,no matter what I do, I'm always

(11:20):
gonna be behind someone else.
Yeah.
And so I think it then comesfrom a point of, it sounds very
cheesy and I don't like to sayit, but it's the idea of just
like doing your own thing'causeno matter what happens, your
brain's gonna find a way to makeit negative.
So it's okay, you're just gonnahave to accept it that people
are gonna be different.
It doesn't matter what youchange about yourself, but

(11:42):
there's always gonna besomething that you don't like.
So it's gonna be toughsometimes, but at least I'm
doing my own thing and that's abit easier kind of

Kaina G (11:48):
thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's very true.
We talk a lot about how socialmedia is just like people's
highlight reels, and then wecompare that to like the.
The lows of our lives.
Yes.
And then we're wondering why wehave all these thoughts.

Becca (12:03):
Yes, absolutely.

Kaina G (12:04):
Yeah.
So I know you're trained inmultiple therapeutic styles and
I'll let you expand on those ifyou want to.
So I know like cognitivebehavioral therapy and then I
abbreviated a bunch of otherones, but I forgot what they
stand for.
But you're very well trained ina lot of different styles.
So can you walk through how youmaybe blend these together or
how you maybe focus onindividual ones based on a

(12:24):
client.
Just talk to us about how youblend those together when you're
working with clients.

Becca (12:28):
So there's four types.
A lot of people will have heardof CBT.
And then there's personcentered, which is a bit more
about like identity and likeclient first kind of thing and
stuff like that.
Attachment, which we've probablyheard of or relationships and
stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And then compassion focused,which is like.
Evolutionary biological,survivalist based, but has that

(12:50):
compassion element as well.
And so a lot of those are kindof opposite in their ways of
doing things.
Mm-hmm.
But I think that's reallyhelpful.
So for example, like the personcentered side of things, just
how I work with a client day today.
Like I always think the clientknows themself the best.
So I will never ever say, likeif a client says, oh, I've been
struggling with this thing, Idunno why, I will never say, oh,

(13:12):
that's because of this thingthat happened to you when you
were younger or anything likethat.
I can ask questions in that likearea, but I will never say, this
is the reason why I want them towork out the reason why for
themself.
'cause I might not be right fora start.
Like something can be the casefor a million different reasons,
but also it's more meaningful ifthey come to that realization

(13:34):
because I want to eventually getto a point where.
They don't need therapy anymorebecause they've learned the
skills from therapy and they cando it for themself.
So I want them to come to theserealizations.
So that's a really key part oflike the person centered side of
things is mm-hmm.
I don't assume that I knowbetter.
I see us as like an equalpartnership kind of thing.

(13:55):
Yeah.
Um, so that's really key.
I think CB t's really helpful inlike the theory and the
techniques, but I think thestructure is something that I've
kind of removed and done awaywith.
'cause it's the idea of, it'slike very formal and structured
and it's only like six to 12sessions and there's homework.
I like the idea of homework.
'cause you need to apply to thatside of sessions.

(14:17):
Um, but equally it's this ideaof like, it shouldn't be rushed
kind of thing.
Um mm-hmm.
Like if someone comes in andthey've had an awful week and
they just need to talk aboutthat week, well then we've put
the whole schedule off and nowwe can't fit everything that we
want to.
But then equally, if we pushthrough that session and go for

(14:40):
the topic that we originallygonna talk about, they're gonna
be distracted and they're notgonna be able to concentrate and
not actually gonna get benefitout of it.
It is very individualized andevery session is very different
and it is different with everyclient as well.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's a really keything about my,, style is.
Whenever a client comes into asession, I might have an idea of

(15:01):
something we can go through thatday.
But I will always ask them atthe start what they wanna do.
So I will say like, is theresomething from the week that you
just wanna process?
Is there a particular topic youwanna look at today?
Or do you wanna look at thelist?
And I always have a list of likeongoing things of like theories
and stuff we can look at that Ithink would be helpful.
'cause sometimes you've had arough week and you just want to

(15:22):
talk it out.
Other times you're like, no,I've had a really good week.
I've got some motivation.
I want to get my teeth intosomething.
And so, and sometimes you'relike, well I dunno what to talk
about today'cause I've not had abad week kind of thing.
So yeah, I think it's justtaking the client as they come
through the door kind of thing.
Um, yeah, and just completelyblending it and basically just

(15:43):
taking the bits that I like fromeach one and using those, is
yeah, really helpful.
And then I'll do a little reviewlike every six to 10 sessions
and see like, do we wanna do abit more of this or that or
like, do you need me to be morechallenging or whatever.
And yeah, just kind of taken itgo, we roll with the punches
kind of thing, so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's cool.

(16:04):
Have you ever

Kaina G (16:04):
done any of somatic therapy?

Becca (16:07):
I've not, but I'm honestly interested in like
every therapeutic approach.
When I hear stuff about them,I'm like, oh, I would kind of
like to do some training inthat.
Like honestly all of them.
So yeah, I think it does soundreally, really cool.
Really, really interesting.
I mean, I've got plenty of timeahead of me, so maybe it's
something that will come inlater in my career.

(16:28):
But it does sound reallyinteresting that like body mind
connection side of things.

Kaina G (16:32):
Yeah.
I've been hearing a lot about iton, I'm on like therapy, TikTok,
so I see all kinds of stuff, butI've been hearing a lot of
people and I feel like I kind ofidentify with those that like
intellectualize their emotionsto process them instead of like
actually feeling them in mybody.
Mm.
And I've been wanting to getback into therapy so I
definitely wanna find someonethat's trained in that so I can

(16:53):
try it.
'cause I've heard it can dowonders for people that have
trouble dissociating from theirbody or intellectualizing their
emotions.
So I was just curious if you'veever done it or tried it.

Becca (17:02):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's definitelyinteresting.
I just like when new stuff comesout'cause it means that there
should be something, hopefullyfor everyone.
And if they've tried somethingand it's not quite work, well
that's okay.
We can try something else kindof thing.
So I love like, alternativestuff of like drama therapy and
dance therapy and, and stufflike that.
'cause like you say, likewording and intellectualizing is

(17:24):
for some people, but it's notfor others.
So yeah, I do find all of thatstuff.
Very, very cool.

Ronnie G (17:29):
Yeah, so you've talked, about different
approaches to your therapy andso Do you have any, suggestions
to people that can begin to linktheir emotions and behaviors, in
their own life, if they're alistener?
Just to kind of get the ballrolling a little bit, do you

(17:50):
have any suggestions?
Obviously they need therapy.
We all do, but in the meantime,is there something that we could
be working on personally whilewe're waiting to find that
therapist or, you know,adjusting to a new therapist,
those kind of things.
Can you expound on that?

Becca (18:09):
Definitely.
Yeah.
So I think one of the key thingsI notice when clients come in is
some people have a lot ofself-awareness and some people
don't.
And so if they don't, that'salways the thing that we start
first.
'cause if you don't know muchabout the problem, then we, we
can't try and work on it, right?
So just building awareness andunderstanding of yourself is
really, really key.

(18:30):
And like you said, like.
How do I notice these links?
Just notice them.
So like some people are like,just keep it like internally in
your mind.
Some people wanna like write itdown in a note in their phone or
in a like more formally in ajournal or something.
But just in anything that, any,anything you wanna work on or
any situations that reallyimpact you or really impact

(18:52):
those around you or anybehaviors you wanna work on.
Just notice in that moment, whatwas I feeling, what was I
thinking and what was happeningin my body as well.
Like the physical sensations andlike the thoughts can be like
the wording of it, the content.
It can be also how fast yourbrain was going or like the tone
of voice that was in your mindkind of thing.

(19:14):
Obviously the emotions, it'slike how intense they were,
positive or negative, what likeenergy level it was.
And then obviously physicalstuff is like your breathing and
your heart rate, motivation,energy, feelings in your
stomach, all that kind of stuff.
If we literally just have somekind of log of like, okay, these
are all the things I felt inthat moment.
And then it might be acompletely unrelated scenario.

(19:37):
You might notice similar things,thoughts, feelings, and
physical, but they're completelyunrelated.
And it's because it might becoming from the same like core
deep down thing, but it's justbeing shown in a different
situation.
So if you have that kind ofinfo, I mean your therapist will
love you for already having thatinfo as you go in kind of thing.

(19:59):
But yeah, even just stuff likethat.
Even if you don't ever work outwhy you're feeling that way.
Even just knowing, oh, okay,last time when I felt like this,
it was really tough for a whileand it was stayed around for
like a day.
So I just need to be more likegentle myself for the next day
until it eases off.
But at least I've got that likepreparation in my mind that it

(20:19):
will go away eventually.
Or like, okay, I just need toget through the first like
minute and then it kind of goesaway.
Like.
Even just something like that isstill helpful.
Just having that like awarenessand understanding is a really,
really helpful one.
Um, so yeah, just notice andkeep some kind of notes
somewhere and see if there's anylinks really.

Kaina G (20:37):
Yeah.
Self-awareness is key.
So I know you were talking aboutattachment theory and I mean, I
just remember from my psychologystudies in college, like how big
attachment is.
So can you talk a little bitabout what role attachment
theory plays in either adultanxiety or relationships in
general or.
Just really adult life ingeneral?

Becca (20:59):
Mm.
I think anxiety can definitelycome from attachment in certain
cases.
Obviously it's not like the onlyreason, but I think in some
cases it's that idea of like ifsomeone is quite inconsistent
with you or you dunno what toexpect from them, or they're
only ever negative with you orwhatever, that is gonna worry

(21:22):
you whenever you have to likesay something to them or just be
around them if they're notsomeone in your home or
whatever.
So I think that just makes sensein my mind.
Like obviously if you don'tdunno what to expect, you're
gonna be worried about it kindof thing, at least some of the
time.
But even in like relationshipsin general, like attachment
theory is literally just like,it's the idea that most of us

(21:44):
want to be around people becauseof that like evolutionary, like
safety and numbers kind ofthing.
So we want to make thoserelationships so even mm-hmm.
If it's a bit problematic ordysfunctional.
For us, there's a driverunderneath that's like, but it's
still worth it for me to havethis relationship to be around
people generally because I feelmore safe on a basic,

(22:05):
fundamental level.
Yeah.
Um, but it's the idea that likeany major relationship can
impact how you think arelationship should be done.
It kind of makes like a, in yourbrain, like a roadmap or like a
structure of how you're supposedto interact with this person.
And then sometimes that can playonto other people.
So it's the idea of like, if yougo to someone and they're always

(22:27):
like attentive and all that kindof stuff, you might assume that
everyone in the world is gonnabe like that, but we know some
people aren't and some peoplecan't be or whatever.
So then that might affectthings.
So it might not even be therelationship itself that's the
problematic or difficult bit itmight be, oh, that set my
expectations, and then otherpeople can't live up to that, or
the world can't live up to that.

(22:48):
So.
There's like 1,000,001 differentways that attachment can Yeah.
Affect things both on anindividual level as well as in
that like interaction level aswell.

Kaina G (22:58):
Yeah, that, that definitely makes a lot of sense.
I like what you said at thebeginning, and I, I think it's
true that like if there's a voidin communication or a void and
consistency, like we tend to bevery negative, especially if we
have like anxious avoidantattachment style or stuff like
that.
We're always gonna assume theworst when someone's not being
very communicative or likealways being consistent with us.

(23:20):
So it's definitely good to beaware of which at attachment
style you have, I know I'm moreof an anxious avoidant type and
realizing that about myself hasbeen like, oh.
That's why I did that.
Yes.
So it's definitely good.

Becca (23:34):
Yeah, I mean, I have slightly different attachments
with different groups as well,and I think that's worth
considering.
I, with particular friends, I'ma bit more anxious, whereas
certain friends, I'm moresecure.
Um, which again, is a reflectionof what those relationships are
like or what those people arelike.
Right.
So even just being aware ofthat, of like, in certain

(23:55):
situations, if I'm meeting upwith someone, if it's for
particular people, I'm messagingthem like, oh, I'm setting off
now, or I'm five minutes away,where are you sat?
Just to make sure that they'reactually coming and they're
gonna be there, they're gonna beon time or whatever.
Whereas for other people, I justknow they're gonna be there and
I don't really have to check upon it or whatever.
Or we're meeting somewherebeforehand or whatever.

(24:17):
So.
Yeah, even stuff like that islike, I would definitely react
differently with differentfriends and stuff.

Kaina G (24:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really like that example.
That's a great like day to dayexample of it.

Ronnie G (24:29):
It really is.
So another therapy module thatyou use or mode is, um,
compassion focus therapy.
Sounds like something that weall need.
What are some common barriers toself-compassion, especially for
young adults today?
Is there something specificallythat you're seeing trending?

Becca (24:47):
compassion focus, like I said before, is really
interesting'cause it has thatbiological.
Basis to the theory and kind ofbuilds on that.
So I think the obvious one issocial media.
Obviously we talked about itbefore, but it's this idea that
like you are behind.
And again, this evolutionarything is you don't wanna upset
the group because you don'twanna get kicked out of the

(25:09):
group because then you're not aslikely to survive.
Mm-hmm.
So you don't want to stick yourhead above the parapet kind of
thing.
You don't wanna stand out.
But then being aware of like,oh, I feel like I'm really
behind on everyone else kind ofthing.
Because again, this person's gotmarried and then this person's
got a home, and then thisperson's got their dream job and

(25:29):
this person over here has had akid, well, individually, they
might not have achievedeverything they want to in their
life, but collectively your mindis going well, everyone's doing
everything right.
Yeah.
So again, it's that idea of,well, I feel so behind
everything.
And again, it's like, okay, butis that what you actually want?

(25:50):
Like, I think about my sister,my sister's four and a half
years older than me, and she bythis age was married in like a
stable job, had I think one ofher daughters, and then got
pregnant a few years after.
That is not my vibe at all.
I do not want that.
I don't wanna, I mean, me and mypartner have said we're not
gonna have kids anyway, but evenif we wanted them, I would not

(26:12):
be wanting them at this age.
I wanna like explore my job fora while and, and get into that
kind of stuff.
So I'm like, well, that's not mycriteria for living.
Obviously I'm very fortunatethat my parents are very chill
about this kind of stuff anddon't have those big
expectations.
And actually they themselvesnever got married.

(26:32):
They always found just likeother ways that they wanted to
spend the money, like puttingdown a deposit for a house and
stuff.
So like they've still together,they've been together 35 years,
but they just didn't ever reallywant to get married.
So I think that helps that thereisn't that expectation there.
But yeah, it's this idea oflike, you are often living
against someone else's criteriaand it's like, is that actually

(26:55):
gonna make me feel better?
Is that actually gonna make mehappy?
And like me having kids andgetting married, no way is that
gonna make me happy at all.
But being in this career and inmy dream job really is.
So I think that's part of it.
Social media will make us feellike we're behind, but sometimes

(27:16):
it will even give usexpectations and criteria that
we don't even wanna follow.
And it can be well-meaningstuff, but like family members
will say, when are you guysgetting married?
When are you guys gonna havekids?
Or like, my cousin a couple ofyears back got engaged and they
were like, oh you, you two aregonna be next.
And I was like, no, we are not.
No.

(27:38):
So I think that's part of it oflike they mean well, but in
their head that's just the wayyou live your life.
You go through these stages andit again, it's very subtly
puddling onto you that that'sthe way you have to do it as
well.
So there's some like expectationfrom other people, but also like
you don't have to know it all aswell.

(27:59):
You can kind of just see howthings go.
I think again, like however manyyears ago, people would've like
grown up, trained for a certaincareer and been in that career
their whole life.
Right.
Whereas that's not necessarilythe case anymore.
So those older expectations ofyou need to know when you finish
school what you're doing,'causeyou're gonna be doing that for
the rest of your life.
That makes sense for that be forback.

(28:21):
Then obviously there are issueswith that because you're
pigeonholed and you have to dothis career that you might not
want to do, but it made sensethen.
Whereas now, knowing what youwanna do, as soon as you leave
school before you even go to unior whatever, there's so much
expectation.
We're obviously working longerbecause we're living longer as
well.
So the idea of you have to knowit all or at least it has to be

(28:44):
all planned out and stuff likethat.
Like, and then if you don't knowit, it's like, well again, I
must be behind everyone else andI must be less happy because of
that.
Or people must see medifferently because of that.
But actually in reality, thebest laid plans can go to waste.
And like the amount of people Iknow who did a course at uni in
a certain subject and then arenow in a career that's

(29:05):
completely unrelated and nothingat all to do with it.
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
I think.
There's a lot of stuff.
It does seem to be a lot ofexternal stuff that's impacting
on then how you areexperiencing.
And actually, if you think aboutit, it doesn't always reflect
what you actually want anywaykind of thing.

Kaina G (29:23):
Yeah, that's definitely true.
I think this is a greatconversation, like on
self-compassion.
'cause I know that's something Istruggle to give myself.
And I think that's a prettycommon experience.
Like for all the reasons youwere just talking about because
we're, we're seeing all thesehighlight reels and we're trying
to put ourself on a timeline anddo like manage, like figuring
out what we want with theexpectations of others.
And I recently read this bookwith my dad on Mimetic theory.

(29:46):
Have you heard of Renee Gerard?

Becca (29:48):
I've heard bits.
I don't know tons, but I'veheard bits.
Yeah,

Kaina G (29:52):
so I was reading, it wasn't his book, but someone
else was writing a bookbasically on his theory of
mimetic desire, which isbasically like ESIS is just
understanding like the nature ofdesire and I.
There's this part of the bookthat really stood out to me as
like identifying your thinversus your thick desires.
So like the thick desires arethe ones that are gonna stand
over time.

(30:12):
You know, like the thin desiresis like, oh, like everyone's
getting married, everyone'shaving kids, everyone's making
money, everyone's doing this X,Y, and Z.
And like their desire of itmakes you desire it because
we're mimetic beings as people.
So those are your thin desires.
And then your thick desires arethe ones that actually come from
you.
Like stuff that you actuallywanna do, stuff that'll actually
leave you fulfilled in life.
And so I've been reading thatand then I'm trying to like

(30:34):
journal and figure out like,okay, what are my thin desires?
What are my thick desires?
Like, do I actually want thisbecause I want it, or do I want
it because everyone else wantsit?
Yeah.
So it's definitely interesting.
But I do feel like that connectsto the compassion and all that
stuff and the social media andall that.
But yeah, very interesting topicfor sure.

Ronnie G (30:54):
One thing that, I find myself saying to myself and
maybe other folks is we seeeverybody on social media and we
think they're all looking at us,but the truth is they're not
even thinking about us 99.9% ofthe time.
So it's just kind of like thatreset.

(31:17):
And then the other thing Iwanted to bring up at this time,
Have you read anything aboutanxiety and gut relation?

Becca (31:25):
I know like the gut is like the second brain kind of
thing.
And obviously it's like alive,it's active.
But again, this really gets intojust how I think anxiety is
different to a lot of othermental health stuff because it's
so physical.
I think all mental healthconditions are physical in some
form or another.
But I think this is how itstands out because how do you
characterize anxiety?

(31:46):
You characterize it as yourheart beating really fast and
your breath going really fastand your mind is going really
fast.
Like you define a lot of itthrough physical health stuff.
And it's definitely related.
So if we always think aboutanxiety in that like
evolutionary way, obviously it.
I'm in danger and I need to getout of this situation really

(32:07):
quickly.
So even just the idea of yourbody puts non-essential
processes on hold, so it willjust stop or really slow down
your digestive system becausethat's not urgent right now.
If you're running away from adangerous animal, you can digest
your food later.
You just need to get away fromit.
Right?
And then it leads into so muchother things, like people who

(32:28):
have a lot of anxiety ordepression often have a really
low sex drive because again,that's not an essential thing in
that moment.
You just need to get away fromthat dangerous situation.
Obviously our body then doesn'trealize that in the modern day,
anxiety and stress can go on forlike weeks or months or longer.
It doesn't have to just be likea short 10 minute period, but
yeah.
Yeah.
That idea of the gut health sideof things comes from a very

(32:51):
fundamental place of like, itmade sense back then for our
body to put all these things onhold because.
We could deal with a situationreally quickly and it did matter
just getting out of it.
Whereas now, like chronic longterm, if you are stressed for
ages or anxious for a long time,you are gonna be getting ill way
more often because the bodyisn't designed.

(33:13):
For being stressed all thatlong.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Ronnie G (33:17):
I appreciate you talking about that because I
think that's big.
And if I personally am dealingwith something, or I feel like
I'm super anxious, if I willlook back nine times outta 10, I
hadn't pooped in a couple days.
Yep.
And then I'm like, that's why.
That's why I'm tearing him up.
No, this is not a cycle sinkingissue.

(33:38):
This is me sitting down andgetting some business done.
The

Becca (33:43):
bathrooms, this is me, chronically constipated.
That comes into it as wellthough with cycles that like
difficulty on the toilet is athing as well.
One of the hormones, I thinkit's estrogen, but I'm not sure,
is a muscle relaxer.
And your bowels are just amuscle that pushes the thing
through.
So that is also a thing thatpeople never think about as a

(34:05):
symptom of like P essence stuff.
But then if you are like you'rePMSing anyway, and then PMS can
make you more stressed out,that's like a double whammy.
And then you're not going to theloof for like three days or
something.
Right.
So it just all inter links issuch a like back and forth
relationship between all those.
Oh yeah.

Kaina G (34:25):
I'm sure every woman that's listening can relate.
Oh my goodness.
Let's talk about someinternational tea.
So you're obviously based in theUK and we're here in the States.
is there any differences you'venoticed between the UK and the
US and how therapy and mentalhealth in general is approached

(34:46):
and or stigmatized?
I don't know if you've spent anytime in the states or really
know much about therapy ormental health here, but maybe
you could just speak to yourexperience in the UK and we
could maybe see what'sdifferent.

Becca (34:57):
Yeah, so I don't know tons about the us.
I've only been on holiday onceto the us It was when I was like
four or something and we went toDisney.
Nice.
That's it.
But yeah, obviously I'm likefollowing some people online and
stuff like that.
And I think it's interesting'cause I think this is one of
the actually areas of healthcarethat's actually a bit more

(35:20):
similar between the UK and theus.
I think obviously other parts ofmore physical healthcare, we
have the NHS and stuff likethat, and obviously it's not
perfect and there are a longwaiting list, but most people
still do that.
I think some people like themore low key stuff might
consider going private now ifthey want something just done
quickly.

(35:40):
Or if they really, really needsomething big, they might go
private.
But the NHS is still a thing,whereas that doesn't really
apply to mental health stuff.
Like again, there is NHSservices for mental health and
for therapy and stuff, but thewait lists are insanely long.
So you'll probably wait like sixmonths to a year because
particularly'cause of COVID.

(36:01):
Um, it used to be like three tosix months.
Um, and now, yeah, it's longer.
Um, and you'll get six to 10sessions max.
And it will only be CBT becauseit's cheaper to run because it's
shorter and only the severecases of people who are really,
really struggling, like can'tget out of bed struggling will

(36:21):
actually get it.
If you are just like, if you'rereally, really struggling
internally, but you're stilllike functioning day to day,
you're still going to work orwhatever, there is no chance
that you are gonna get like anNHS service stuff.
So I think in that sense, a lotof people have to go private if
they want to.
There is a similarity there.

(36:42):
I think I would argue in the UKthere's probably more of a range
of options in terms of pricingthat I think is helpful.
Like, for example, one of myplacements was at a low cost
private practice because theyused students and students don't
get paid.
When they're on placement, itmeant that they could offer the
sessions for like half the pricethat they would've otherwise

(37:03):
been.
So it's like 30 or 40 pounds persession, whereas the average
therapist is probably like 50 to80.
But I know in the US you'relooking at like a couple of
hundred as like an averageprice.
It can be pretty pricey.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so I think it's potentiallya bit more accessible in the UK

(37:24):
in that sense.
Um, and I know insurance isn'tmuch of a big thing.
Like a few people will takeinsurance in the UK as a private
therapist, but it's not a bigthing at all.
And often it's not worth thehassle for us.
'cause not many people have itanyway, but also like the extra
paperwork and stuff and you haveto do a lot of check-ins with
your client and give them likefeedback and stuff.

(37:46):
And they might only fund likesix to 10 sessions anyway and
the client actually wants it.
Yeah.
Way more than that.
But I think on the kind of like.
Stigmatizing side of things.
I honestly think it's more of agenerational thing.
Like I think people of olderyears, particularly people who
aren't online that look thatmuch, particularly like people

(38:09):
in my parents' generation orolder, my grandparents'
generation therapy was only forpeople who were like in a mental
health unit at a hospital.
Like that was literally like theidea in their mind.
I don't think they think thatanymore, but I think my parents
maybe thought that growing upand I think my grandparents age
still think that.
Whereas in obviously the youngergenerations now, I do think

(38:30):
there is a split.
I think some people do stillthink that, and I come across
plenty of people who still thinkthat.
But I think there are morepeople who are realizing, like a
lot of people are actually highfunctioning and do everything
they do day to day, they dotheir job, they have a family,
they do all this kind of stuff,but again, they're just really
struggling internally fordecades.
Mm-hmm.

(38:51):
But also that therapy can justbe to understand yourself a bit
better.
Obviously I've had multiple,lots of counseling and therapy.
Part of it, just my own personalstuff, but part of it we have to
do as part of our training tounderstand yourself so you're
not bringing stuff into sessionskind of thing that shouldn't be
there.
Yeah.
So I think some people arerealizing that it is like just

(39:11):
helpful to be aware of yourselffor your relationships and
everything else.
I think though that people stillcan't justify coming to therapy
and paying for therapy for thatreason.
So the clients I see are stillmostly I'm struggling and I'm
actively really like, like thisis difficult for me.
And like one client of mine gotengaged not long before she

(39:33):
started sessions with me.
And I just said, oh, by the way,if you change your name or
anything, or if your addresschanges, I need to know just for
the paperwork.
And she said, oh yeah, but we'renot gonna get married for a
while because I can't affordhaving therapy and have enough
money.
For the wedding kind of thing.
Oh my gosh.
So it's, I think it's reallyimportant and to me that just

(39:54):
shows how much she needed it andhow much she wanted therapy,
that it was worth her puttingthe wedding on hold, for stuff
like that.
So yeah, I think there is alittle bit of a thing around
like, if you have anxiety ordepression, you're bed bound or
you're house bound.
I think people in youngergenerations or people who are
online a lot are realizing youcan be high functioning.

(40:15):
and still have a lot of theseissues and it can still really
impact you.
But yeah, I think there's a lotof different factors that go
into that stuff.
I do think country is a part ofit, but I think there's a lot of
other relevance as well.

Kaina G (40:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was really curious to hear thedifferences and it sounds like
they're pretty minute for themost part.
I think accessibility wise, Imean, I.
It's not that easy to gettherapy here, at least not like
free therapy.
I think it is shifting to becomemore accessible and I think that
maybe that's a reflection of thegenerational thing, which I find
interesting too.
'cause I really didn't know,like from a different country,

(40:48):
totally different history.
Like if that was a thing too.
'cause we just did an episode onlike stigmas about mental health
and therapy on like hergeneration and my generation and
definitely her generation waslike the tough it out, grin and
bear it, like suffer in silence,you know, stuff like that.
So that is shifting and I'mreally happy that therapy's
becoming less stigmatizednowadays.

(41:10):
But it sounds like there arestill a lot of barriers to
people getting it.
I guess to the degree I think itshould be available, but.
You know, we're on the journey.
It's all right.
Yeah, we're getting that.
I definitely mean, I completely

Becca (41:23):
like, I think everyone should be able to, because as
we've said with all the likephysical mental health links, it
will help people's physicalhealth and therefore mm-hmm
there will be less money thatneeds to be spent on those
people in the NHS.
So I think it would save themmoney long term.
Um, and obviously I agree, justif people are feeling better,
then they're more likely to beat work and all that kind of
stuff.
So on a million differentlevels, I think it is better.

(41:46):
Um, and it is something that Ithink is very unfortunate about,
the way that we do things.
And that was a big tricky thingfor me.
'cause when I started my course,I wanted to work in the NHS
because I'm a very like, leftwing person and I think everyone
deserves access to it and allthat kind of stuff.
Mm-hmm.
But as time went on, it justwasn't feasible with like, my

(42:06):
life and it just wasn'tcompatible for me.
And that's something that Istill struggle with a little
bit.
I'm better with it.
But the idea of.
Taking money for something thatI think should be offered to
everyone no matter what issomething I have to kind of
consider and work around a lot.
So yeah, it's, it's definitelysomething that we struggle with
too.

Kaina G (42:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm sure it is.
I've, I've heard therapiststalking about that before and I
feel like if that thought iscrossing your head, I mean, that
just shows that you're a greatperson and that really cares
about their clients and doesn'twanna take advantage of them in
any way.
So that is great.
But I'm, I'm sure that's a veryreal struggle that doesn't
exactly go away.
Yeah, definitely.

(42:46):
Yeah.

Ronnie G (42:46):
Okay, so this is something for you personally,
what's one of the most overusedpieces of mental health advice
that you hear online?

Becca (42:57):
That's a tricky one.
'cause there's a lot.
There is a lot out there.

Ronnie G (43:01):
Maybe top three, top two.

Becca (43:06):
I think part of it comes from the difference between
someone who doesn't really haveany major mental health stuff
and is just like day to day andsomeone who does, and I know
there's not categories.
I do see it as like a spectrumor a scale kind of thing, but
something that is really, reallyhelpful for someone who doesn't
really have any major strugglescurrently happening versus

(43:29):
someone who is struggling withanxiety are very, very different
things.
For me, for example, I'm notreally majorly struggling with
anything at the moment.
If I'm having a rubbish day,going out for a walk is a really
good thing for me'cause I knowit helps me.
But if you tell that to ananxious person, they're gonna
like get so annoyed at youbecause no, that doesn't resolve

(43:50):
everything, right?
So I think stuff like that ofpeople either taking a mental
health approach and putting itonto people who aren't
struggling or vice versa, thatis where a lot of issues come
up.
And people don't alwaysunderstand how deep these issues
are.
So for me, talking aboutaffirmations is something that I
really don't like.

(44:11):
I think part of it is becausethey should be individualized.
I don't think the idea itself isa negative thing.
I think if that's something thathelps you do it.
But I think the reason whythey've never worked for me
potentially is because one, theyfeel really cheesy.
And again, that's not my vine.
But also like someone will putout there like.

(44:31):
Five affirmations for when youreally don't want to go into
work.
And I'm like, yeah, but you'vewritten that from your
perspective.
Yeah, and like again, as I saidbefore, whenever I'm with a
client, it's always about theirside of things.
I don't wanna put ideas in theirmind because that's not their
actual lived experience, it'smine putting it onto them.
So whenever I'm in a sessionand, and I'm like, I dunno,

(44:52):
let's write down all thethoughts you were having.
I'm like, oh, it sounds likethere's something in that like
area, that topic.
How are we actually wordingthat?
Because that is really importantbecause it needs to sound like
it's coming from them.
So I think this idea of here'ssome affirmations you can say to
yourself is a nice idea intheory, but unless you've
written it yourself and it'syour actual wording and your

(45:13):
language you would use, it's notgonna help you that much.
And I think then people strugglebecause then they're like, well,
I've tried this and that, I'vetried affirmations and, and that
doesn't help me.
That doesn't work.
So I don't know what else I cando kind of thing.
But it clearly worked for theperson that posted it because.
They've written it themselvesand it applies to them.
So that is an annoying one forme.

(45:34):
And I personally, the idea ofmanifesting has come out a lot
recently and I'm not a very likespiritual person as you know,
I'm kind of realistic down toearth and stuff.
So again, the idea of likesending some thoughts out into
the world and then it makes ithappen for you.
I think it's the fundamentalidea behind it of like, okay,

(45:57):
but you need to actually makethat happen.
You stuff like this changes hardwork and it's not just gonna
happen.
I do get the psychological stuffbehind manifesting of like once
it's in your mind and onceyou've kind of set it for
yourself as a goal, you mightsubconsciously try and make it
happen more because you put itout there and you want it to
happen.
So absolutely.

(46:18):
On a kind of placebopsychological level, I do think
it can help.
I'm not saying it doesn't, but.
I think equally it can ignorethe fact that sometimes, like if
you have your like dream job inmind and you're nowhere near
that right now, it's not justgonna fall in your lap, is it?
So I think manifesting on itsown is a problem.

(46:38):
If you do it amongst otherstuff, then it can be really
helpful.
But just again, this idea oflike, this is gonna fix
everything for me, I thinkthat's where I often struggle
with stuff like that.

Kaina G (46:48):
Yeah, I would agree.
Yeah, definitely.
Like the blanket solutions andthe oversimplification of
solutions.
And I like that you said like, Imean, there's a lot of people
that like to go and give adviceon how to fix your mental health
or tell you this is why you'redepressed, or X, Y, and Z.
And oftentimes, like you said,like tell an anxious person to
just go for a walk every day.
Like if I'm severely anxious andlike, or maybe I'm anxious and

(47:11):
depressed, that's gonna make mewanna slap you in the face.
Yeah.
Literally.

Becca (47:16):
And.
Like clients will come to me andsay like, oh, I phoned this
helpline.
And or they, like they've justsaid down the phone like, I'm
suicidal and I dunno what to do.
I'm in an awful place.
I just dunno how to keep ongoing.
And a professional will say tothem, do some journaling or go

(47:36):
for a walk.
And it's like, oh my God.
Oh my God.
I understand these things areunderstaffed and under-resourced
and stuff.
But you do realize that meansabsolutely nothing to them.
Like

Kaina G (47:47):
Yeah, it's just a little out of touch.

Becca (47:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Kaina G (47:51):
But I do like your hot takes on affirmations and
manifesting because I feel likeI'm really seeing like the no
bs, the no fluff come out there.
And I definitely agree with alot of that, that like there
may, there might be something toit, whether like scientifically
there's something behind it, buteven if it's like something more
psychosomatic where like it's inyour head and then.

(48:12):
That kind of turns out to like,that affects how you're
perceiving reality, whichaffects the actions you're
taking and the thoughts that youmight have in the future.
But I definitely think peoplemay be put too much weight in it
and they don't put too muchweight in like their
responsibility to make thingshappen.

Becca (48:26):
Yes, definitely.
Yeah.
Again, it's that idea of, it'salmost a sense of I have no
control, or I feel helpless,like I can't do anything myself.
All I can do is put thesepositive vibes out and the
universe will just make ithappen, which in a sense is
reassuring.
'cause it's like everything willwork out okay in the end, and
what I want to happen willhappen, and I like that.
But equally then if it doesn'thappen, then it's like, well, I

(48:49):
don't have a control overanything and the universe isn't
doing what I want it to.
So then.
You could get into a depressivespell just about all of that
anyway.
Right?

Ronnie G (48:58):
One of the things, what Cana calls them, Ron-isms,
but one of my big, uh, things isthat we cannot cheat the hustle
ever, ever.
So it is up to us to put bootsto the ground and, you know, see
it through or at least getstarted.

(49:18):
And so yeah, I see that.

Becca (49:22):
I can see where it's coming from.
With that in mind, I can imagineyou guys probably have a similar
thought to me on this, but theidea of hustle culture is
something that obviously isbecoming more and more extreme
and something that I am not downfor, but it's still something
that I am having to find abalance in myself.
Obviously, being someone who hasquite an online.

(49:45):
Presence.
There's a lot of expectation,again, of how everyone else is
doing stuff and I need to bedoing all this stuff.
And I have had like some spellsof, I have one spell of kind of
low key burnout in like Decembertime.
And then I've kind of had hintsof like, oh, I'm going towards
that.
I need to take a step back.
And again, now that I'm aware ofit, I can prevent it from

(50:06):
happening and getting worse kindof thing.
But I can understand the idea ofmanifesting or affirmations or
whatever from a point of hustle.
Culture is so hard and I feellike I do have to have the
perfect job home partner familyby this age.
And it's so hard to do all thosethings at once nowadays.
So I just want it to happen forme.

(50:30):
But then like you say, it'slike, but if we did actually
work on all those things atonce, you'd be exhausted.
Like you wouldn't be happy atall with your life.
So I think it's coming from thatsense of societal expectations.
Yeah.
But again, the fundamental ideaof it, I just don't necessarily
agree with that side of it.

Ronnie G (50:46):
I appreciate you bringing that up because yeah,
hustle means it's, it's not thesame every generation, what that
looks like.
And so I can see that,'cause wejust did something on hustle
culture versus stability.
And now that I'm looking at it,I, I have to be careful about,

(51:06):
like, I used to always just saythat to my kids.
I don't really say it.
Like, and a lot of times it wasjust like sports.
Like, don't, you can't likehalfway do something and be
successful.
There is usually some serious,you know, elbow grease that goes
into it.
And so I appreciate you sayingthat because hustle, it looks a

(51:29):
lot different now than it dideven 20 years ago.
I agree.

Kaina G (51:35):
Yeah, our episode yesterday was basically about
like the perspectives of workand the workforce and really
just like, like hustle cultureversus stability culture where
like older generations inAmerica, I don't know if it was
the same for the uk, would likestay in the same job and that
wasn't necessarily their dreamjob, but they did it nine to

(51:57):
five and they worked really,really hard.
And then versus our generationlike the, the glorification of
the hustle culture and alwaysbeing booked and busy and always
trying to have a side hustle andpay for this lavish life and all
that stuff, it is so toxic.

Becca (52:11):
Yeah, I feel like there's two extremes.
I guess.
Obviously being a therapistonline, there's a lot of
wellness people around who arekind of anti all of that.
I am very much find the grayarea, find the middle of the
road.
Mm-hmm.
Kind of thing.
Because as humans we naturallyfall into black and white
thinking when actually in mostcases, somewhere in the middle

(52:33):
is the realistic option or themost likely optional, whatever.
And it's something that again,that I've had to get used to and
take on myself.
Like if I'm, I dunno what to doin this situation, I have to
say, okay, what is the middleground kind of thing.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, I think a lot ofpeople are either, I feel like I
need to be doing everything, butalso I need to make it look
effortless on the outside.

(52:54):
I need to have that wellnessvibe on the outside of like, oh
no, I'm really happy and that'smy focus and I just want to be
happy, kind of thing.
But internally, there's stillthe expectation of like success
and all the rest of it.
And I think as someone who hasopenly said to family members
that I don't want to ever havekids, my partner feels exactly
the same, so I at the momentcan't see as having kids in the

(53:16):
future.
I think then the automaticexpectation is.
Oh, so you're just gonna diveinto your career because that's
like the only other thing that awoman can do, right?
She either has kids or has areally like massive career kind
of thing.
And my career is important to meand I do enjoy my job and all
the rest of it, but I'm, a lotof people know this about me.

(53:37):
I'm a feminist as well.
And the point of feminism is youdon't have to do one thing.
You don't have to be a housewifeor a big career person.
You get the choice.
You're not forced or feelingforced to do either side, right?
That's the point of it.
To have the freedom to choosewhat you wanna do on an
individual level, not based onyour gender.
So.
For me, it's like, well, why areyou pigeonholing me like that?

(53:59):
Like, just'cause I'm a woman.
You wouldn't say that to a guy,right?
Would you?
Like if a guy said, you sure

Kaina G (54:03):
wouldn't.

Becca (54:04):
Yeah.
If a guy said, oh, I don't wantto have kids, you'd be like, oh,
okay.
Fair enough.
Or you might like, I mean, somepeople would still say like, oh,
when you get to a certain ageyou want, you definitely want
to, and I've had my first shareof that.
But like, you wouldn't then say,oh, okay, so you're gonna really
focus on your career.
Right.
You'd just be like, oh, okay.
He doesn't want to, but,'causeI'm old.
Golly, that's the stuff that Iget, so, oh my gosh.

(54:27):
Yeah.
I'm trying to find a middleground of, I do want to have a
successful career, butsuccessful doesn't mean long
working hours, and it doesn'tmean a certain amount of money.
It means.
Not working full hours so I canspend more time with my partner
or pop around to see my sisterand her kids whilst they're
growing up or having longweekends so I can see friends

(54:49):
who live further away, but alsoenjoying my job and being able
to make a living as well.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Again, for me it's important tofind where that middle ground
is.
'cause most people aren't on theextremes kind of thing.

Kaina G (55:01):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I think that it's easier for alot of people to operate in like
black and white and extremes.
Mm.
But oftentimes I feel like thatdoes more damage over time
because life is very complex.
Yeah.
Without a doubt.
Without a doubt.
Yeah.
But oh my gosh, you're so cool.
I'm obsessed with you.
When you said you're a feminist,I'm like, oh my God.

(55:23):
It gets even better.
Okay.
So our closing or what she said,do you have a mindset, a mantra,
or in your personal style?
A brutally honest, no flufftruth that you come back to when
anxiety or worrying oroverthinking comes back in.
So something you maybe tell yourclients in this regard or
something even you tellyourself.

Becca (55:43):
Can I cheat and have two?
Yeah, of course.
So I think one is the gray area,like always find the middle
ground or the gray area or thecompromise.
I think like.
A client might say to me like,oh, I'm meant to be meeting up
with a friend later, but I'm so,so exhausted.
And they might have somethingaround like, people pleasing or
I haven't seen this friend inages or something like that.

(56:04):
And I'm, okay, what's the grayarea?
And again, I don't say to themwhat the gray area should be.
'cause that would be differentfor everyone.
So it, for some people it wouldbe, I'll go, but I can only stay
for a certain amount of time.
For some people it's, I'm gonnarearrange it for tomorrow or for
next week.
For some people it's, we won'tmeet in public, but we'll go
back to their house or my housebecause that's less draining for

(56:27):
me.
So, mm-hmm.
I think finding the gray area isreally helpful because we do
think in that black and white alot, and it's like, oh, I feel
like I have to choose betweenthese two things, but that's not
always the case kind of thing.
So I think finding the middleground is really important.
And it also helps with likeprogress as well.
I think if you're like.
I am struggling with my mentalhealth, so I wanna do all the

(56:48):
self-care things.
You're not gonna be able tomaintain that and hold that
forever.
So what's the point?
Like Yeah, if you find themiddle ground of, okay, I'm just
gonna do a 10 minute walk everyother day, it's not a big step.
It won't drastically change yourlife, but it might give you a 1%
improvement and you know,chances are you could do that
for the majority of the yearkind of thing.
That is something you'reactually gonna stick to.

(57:10):
Mm-hmm.
It's helping that progress aswell, because the little and
often stuff is the stuff thatbuilds up and I guess leads into
a lot of like the diet, cultureand stuff that we have as well.
You're either like, you beinggood and you are on a diet and
you're being really strict onyourself, or you're on holiday
and you are pig hill and eatingall sorts.
Right.
Um, whereas if you have themiddle ground, it's a lot more

(57:31):
sustainable.
So yeah, that's definitely oneof my key ones.
But also like.
Just give it a sec.
Just wait a minute.
Like again, feeds into some ofthat stuff we were saying around
like hustle culture, and I feellike I'm behind everyone else
and social media and all stufflike that, but also anxiety
itself, again, in thatbiological side of things has a

(57:53):
sense of urgency naturally thatcomes with it.
It's like something's happeningand I need to resolve it now,
and I need to do this thing.
And again, back then when wewere survivalism stuff, it made
sense because you did have toresolve it now, otherwise you
could get killed by an animal orsomething.
But nowadays, that's often notthe case, but it still gives us
that sense of urgency.
Yeah.
So even like in the moment, it'slike, oh, okay, I need to decide

(58:15):
right now.
And I don't know.
And it's like, well, this thingisn't happening till tomorrow,
right?
Yeah.
So why do you have to decidethis second?
Why don't you think about it fora few hours and then make a
decision kind of thing.
So I think.
Yeah, in both kind of more likelonger term and shorter term
versions of that, just wait asec as well.
Give our body time to get out ofthat super emotional stressy

(58:36):
mind and get back into ourlogical, more rational state of
mind.
That can be a really big help aswell, I think.

Kaina G (58:42):
Oh, that's so true.
I feel like I am, well, I'vetold you I struggle with anxiety
and just all the things we'vebeen talking about today, the
worrying and overthinking.
You know, like as soon assomething comes up I'm like, I
wanna solve it right away.
'cause I don't feel like I canrelax until it's, it's like done
outta my brain and I've realizedit's very toxic of me and also
prevents me from being able toactually like wind down and
relax.

(59:02):
I'm always stressed and sothat's something I'm working on
is reframing my brain to like.
I don't have to deal with thisright now.
Like I can sit here and just beme and enjoy this time and then
know that like I'll be fullycapable of handling this
tomorrow or when it comes up.

Becca (59:17):
So

Kaina G (59:18):
it's definitely, it's definitely tough, but I
definitely think that you'reonto some very, very good advice
there.

Becca (59:23):
Thank you.
Thank you.

Kaina G (59:25):
Yeah.
Well thank you so much.
This has been one of my favoriteinterviews for sure.
I think it's so interesting,especially'cause I'm interested
in therapy and counseling andpsychology and all that, but
your insights have been veryprofound and I love your
personal style.
I think it's exactly what peopleneed nowadays, so keep doing
you.

Becca (59:46):
I love it.
Thank you.
Honestly.
Yeah.
I really appreciate you guyshaving me on and obviously as we
said, accommodating time andissues with wifi and all the
rest of it, so.
Oh

Kaina G (59:56):
yes.
Well thank you And that's thetea.
That's the, thank you.

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No BS, Just Therapy | A Real Talk Episode on Anxiety with Becca Upton

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}No BS, Just Therapy | A Real Talk Episode on Anxiety with Becca Upton