May 27, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode of Generational Tea, we’re unbuttoning the layered, loaded, and often controversial topic of modesty. With two different generational perspectives, we dive into the cultural, religious, and personal meanings behind what we choose to wear (or not wear), and how those choices have evolved over time. From rebellious crop tops to faith-based reflections, this conversation explores how modesty has been used as both a tool of control and a form of empowerment. We break down arguments for and against modesty culture, unpack our own past experiences dressing for the male gaze, and share what modesty means to us now as women, wives, and individuals trying to live with intention instead of shame. Whether you’ve been burned by purity culture or are rethinking your wardrobe through a new lens, this episode is here to offer honesty, reflection, and a whole lot of grace.
- Join the conversation: What are your current beliefs on modesty and how have these beliefs evolved over time? How did your weekly challenge go? Share your reflections in the comments or via our social media.
- What She Said: "What you wear should be a reflection of who you are, not who the world tells you to be". — Nadia Bolz-Weber
- Follow us on TikTok and Instagram @generationalteapod, watch us on YouTube, and listen to us wherever you get your podcasts!
- Microphone flags by Impact PBS
- Intro music by Cymatix
- Logo by @makariann
- Business email: generationalteapod@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
getting a little spicy.
We're about I miss you.
I miss you too.
It's terrible.
This is bad.
This is so lonely.
I am so like trying to figureout how I can get there without
it being so hot.
I might just have to fly in andwe just stay inside the whole
time.
But then miserable.
(00:32):
That's not fun.
I know it's miserable.
So.
But anyway, speaking of summer,we have a great subject to talk
about today.
Boy, did we.
Yes.
So there's just in time and it'sgoing to be a great focus on
generational differences.
Yes, we've been talking and wewanted to emphasize that more
(00:53):
obviously, like any otherepisode and discussion we've
had, we've been giving differentopinions from different
generations, but we reallywanted to focus on topics that
differ generationally as awhole, so we can get into the
nitty gritty of it and start aconversation with you guys, our
listeners.
So the topic we're gonna bedigging into today is one that
tends to stir the pot.
(01:13):
And it is modesty.
Yes.
So before we really dive intowhat we're gonna be covering
today, we just wanted to let youguys know our backgrounds and
it's relevant to the topic.
So we are gonna discussreligious material today and our
religious beliefs.
So if that's not something youwant to hear, go ahead and skip
this episode.
You don't have to listen to it,but we just wanna preface that
with it is gonna be an aspect ofthe conversation today.
(01:35):
So yes, I was raised religiouslyand my.
Opinions on modesty and mybeliefs have been rooted in
religion.
I always had a rebelliousstreak, often by showing more
skin.
So we'll get into that.
And I'm now a blue docChristian, living in a red
state, so I have some differentopinions on modesty than some
(01:57):
may believe.
We'll get into it, but yeah.
Ronnie, do you wanna share yourbackground and how that might
influence the way you view andtalk about modesty?
Yes, yes.
So my background is I've alwayslived in the south, always lived
in the state of South Carolina,Southern Baptist, born and bred,
Modesty was a big thing in ourchurch and, big also in our
(02:18):
schools.
It's just crazy once I reallystarted digging into this to see
how many aspects of probablyjust the culture of Southeastern
folks that we all, regardless ofwhere we were or sometimes even
if we went to church or not,have kind of the same, like each
generation has their same thingsthat they're kind of carrying
(02:41):
through.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's definitelydifferent than me growing up in
Colorado.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
It's for sure different.
So yeah, we'll, we'll talk aboutthat maybe in the future.
But anyways.
This is obviously a very complexand emotional topic that's often
tied to culture, spirituality,patriarchy, self-worth.
There's a lot of layers that gointo it.
And at the end of the day, ourgoal is not to tell you what to
(03:03):
believe about modesty.
We're just gonna explore theselayers and peel'em back and kind
of share our own deconstructionprocess and beliefs.
Yeah.
'cause that's essentially whatwe've been doing when preparing
this episode.
Mm-hmm.
We've been kind ofdeconstructing why we believe
what we believe about modesty,and I actually kind of.
Figured out mine.
I really feel like, and you saidthis too, Ronnie, I think we
were on the phone, that youropinions on modesty and your
(03:25):
beliefs about it kind of waxedand waned through different
seasons of life.
Yes, and I've kind of felt that,and I think there's value in
kind of like planning your feetsomewhere.
It's not to say that you can'tchange if you have information,
but I think with something likethis that is so tied to who you
are, it's important to have afirm.
Yeah.
Point to stand on, right?
(03:46):
So that when storms of lifecome, you know why you believe
what you believe, right?
And you're confident in it.
Yes.
So we're just going to, youknow, peel back the layers and
we don't wanna tell you what tobelieve, but we're gonna leave
some space for reflection andcollective growth and respect.
and one thing with that, you'regonna hear things you might not
agree with today, but we areoffering different perspectives
(04:06):
because that's part ofdeconstructing.
You can't just.
Look at stuff you agree with.
Mm-hmm.
Like stuff that supports yourpoint.
Mm-hmm.
You have to look at all sides ofthe aisle and then you make a
decision.
So yeah, that's what our plan isto dig into modesty today.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Awesome, awesome.
Well we are generational tea andI am your host, Ronnie, and this
is, yeah.
(04:26):
Cana.
Welcome guys.
Yes.
Thank you for joining us.
Yeah.
So golly, this whole modestything, um, we just Really went
back to bare bones.
And, and there's just a, there'sthings that overarching, that
contribute to our thoughtprocess about modesty.
Yeah.
And one of those is faith.
(04:47):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and we know that throughoutthe Bible, the general meaning
of modesty is often connected tohumility, dignity, and respect.
Mm-hmm.
So we'll dig a little bitfurther into that, but we, we
did just wanna say for.
Purposes of our conversation, itmay be more of how we dress
because we are women and it'ssummer.
(05:09):
And so we can come back to thislater, but that is definitely
the other thing that really candrive how we feel about modesty
is the culture.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I was born in 1972,but did most of my growing in
the eighties.
Graduated high school in in1990.
So pretty much all of my, mostof my formative years as far as
(05:30):
me establishing things that Iwanted to believe in because I
had a passion about it or it wasimportant to me, really was in
the, eighties.
Yeah.
That, because we know thatclothing, standard shift,
geography shifts, powerdynamics, shift race and more.
So there are a lot of thingsculturally that shape the way we
(05:52):
feel about mony as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
As well as modern languagethat's important to consider
when we're talking about modestybecause like you were just
saying with the Bible, Iactually went through and looked
up any Bible verse that wastalking about modesty, and it
does really just mean likehumility and dignity and
respect.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(06:12):
But it's interesting because wehear modesty now and that's
conflated with covering up ormaybe even being less sexual.
Right.
So it.
That's a whole nother topic forhow we got from point A to point
B, but that's what we're dealingwith now.
So let's talk about it.
Ronnie, some talking points toget us started.
I feel like these are gonna beinteresting.
What did modesty mean for usgrowing up?
(06:33):
Okay.
For this, I'm really gonna justlook at clothing because there
is enough clothing wise.
So growing up, started out atchurch.
And it was covering up for guystoo.
Like, so for instance, at churchwe had to have a dress that was
below our knees.
We should cover our shoulders.
(06:54):
I'd never wanted undressed tochurch, ever, you know, just
like covering my shoulders.
Guys weren't allowed to wearhats in the sanctuary or even in
church at all initially, sothere were no hats, like ball
caps.
The guys needed to have theirshirt.
Tucked in and a belt, those kindof things.
So that part was growing up.
(07:15):
The interesting thing was thatthat really, and it could have
just been by default, but itshaped.
Modesty in the school system atthat time.
Mm-hmm.
I really, really feel like itdid.
Like if we were shorts, they hadto be below the tips of our
fingers.
And you know, of course, youknow, no, no showing of the
shoulders that tended to, ohGod, don't even get me started.
(07:38):
I, I would die.
I would lie, lie I couldn't, mymiddle school and my high school
can't show your shoulders.
Yeah.
I was raging about it for years.
Yes, I still am.
Yes.
Yes.
Definitely.
No cutoffs of any kind.
That was a no-no.
Oh.
And that just spilled over into,like I said, like school,
(07:59):
because that is our work whenwe're that age.
And you know, I was a tall kid,uh, who turned into a tall
teenager.
Mega tall, and especially inmiddle school.
'cause the boys were shorter.
But I always had trouble withthat shorts below the tips of my
fingers.
Mm-hmm.
Because I also have very longarms.
(08:21):
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I can't tell you thenumber of times that I would be
called to the principal's officebecause I had on two short
shorts and you know, all that.
My parents just finally, I thinkthey got tired of it and were
just like.
Take an extra change of clothes.
We're not coming to pick you upto go home to change every time,
you know?
It's too short.
(08:42):
when we got to high school, itwas definitely still no short,
short still that lengthsituation.
And I was a cheerleader, whichwas my only saving grace because
we wore uniforms most of thetime.
Well, I remember I was thetallest.
And second to tallest was WendyGarbe and Roach that we've
talked about on this, on thispodcast before.
(09:02):
And she was tall as well, butnot as tall as me.
Well, back then you didn't getany uniforms.
You did car washes to earn onenew uniform per year and all
your rest of your uniforms werehanded down to you.
Well, the fact that thereweren't very many five foot nine
thin as a rail girls, I alwaysstruggled with my skirts being
(09:26):
too short, and I did getattention that was not invited
and it wasn't like I could doanything about it.
Looking back, I maybe couldhave, but no one was telling me
to do something different, so Ijust dealt with what I had.
But, also church, camps, any ofthat.
Definitely no two pieces.
(09:47):
No two piece swimsuits, honey.
No ma'am.
Not gonna happen.
Mm-hmm.
And so it was one pieces and,and then it was like not over
revealing clothes or too tightof clothes.
And so I basically, like when Iwould go out with my girlfriends
in high school or after highschool, I would borrow my
friend's clothes.
(10:08):
'cause I didn't really have, Ididn't have that short, tight
dress, you know?
Yeah.
So.
Here it is, mom.
My mom listens every week.
I am spill my guts.
I mean, it's real.
It is so real.
Yeah.
So, that was kind of like how itwas growing up, like, and the
(10:31):
whole thing was you don't wannadraw attention to yourself.
And I think that the Christiancommunity took a little bit of
truth.
As they do so many times, alittle bit of truth, and then
they added to it.
And that's, I believe, howmodesty got shifted to an
exterior first and then aninterior where really modesty
(10:57):
starts inside.
And then the reflection of thatcan be exterior.
Mm-hmm.
But everybody that dressesimmodestly is not arrogant.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
And, and mm-hmm.
And you know, the other thing itdoes when you take a rule or a
commandment or something that'sscriptural and you add all those
things to it, what happens isyou start pitting people against
(11:19):
each other.
Yeah.
Because now you've informed themof a rule that you really don't
understand the heart behind it.
Well that, and also I am a firmbeliever, like as a Christian,
if someone doesn't prescribe tomy faith and my beliefs, I have
no right to judge them or tellthem they're doing something
wrong because they're operatingon a completely different belief
(11:39):
system than I am.
Right.
And we are not.
God.
No, we're not.
We're not.
We can only control ourselves.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
How about we ran into the Yes,yes, yes.
So that's a little bit about megrowing up and I took too long,
but.
How about you Pan?
No, you're fine.
Yeah.
This is interesting because,well, we're from two different
(12:01):
generations, obviously.
Yeah.
And mine looked a lot different.
I was raised religiously, but itwas also kind of an interesting
dynamic.
We weren't in church everySunday like you were.
'cause my family had beenthrough a cult and some church
trauma and our relationship withreligion and church was
complicated.
But at the end of the day.
Especially my mom was very, forthe modesty standards that are
(12:25):
often associated withChristianity, and as also a tall
woman, I struggled to find stuffthat fit right.
Yeah.
And you know, I just remembergrowing up and there was always
comments, like, especially inhigh school when they did let me
decide what I want to wear forthe most part.
Mm-hmm.
Like.
I would be wearing jean shorts,not even booty shorts, and my
(12:46):
mom would make comments on,they're too short or That is too
tight, or, I wasn't allowed towear a bikini until I was in
high school.
Probably.
All that kinds of stuff.
And I felt like such arebellious urge behind it
because one, it was neverexplained to me like in the
right way, I think.
Mm-hmm.
Why I need to be modest.
It was.
You're gonna attract their ownkind of attention, and that's
(13:07):
just what Christians do, andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Mm-hmm.
And I felt like if I would'vehad someone to explain to me,
like the stuff that we're aboutto get into like I would've been
able to form my own opinions onit.
And I think I probably maybewould've dressed differently,
but also I just, I don't know.
I hated being told you wereshowing too much skin, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
I hated it.
(13:28):
And yeah, we'll get into allthat a little bit later, but.
The next question is, what feelsmost empowering for us to wear
now and why?
for me personally, whatever Ifeel comfortable in is the most
empowering for me.
It's empowering for me to beable to choose and I'll think
about anyone else when I'mthinking about what I'm putting
(13:49):
on my body.
And I'll get into later kind ofwhat I believe about modesty and
why I choose the clothes I maychoose.
But at the end of the day, it'sempowering for me to know that.
I'm not dressing for anyoneelse.
I'm dressing for myself and I'mexpressing myself through my
clothes and I'm gonna becomfortable.
So when it's 115 degrees here inLouisiana, I'm sorry, but I'm
gonna be wearing a crop top andshorts.
(14:09):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
A hundred percent.
'cause oh my gosh, I'm gonnadie.
Yeah, that part, for me.
What feels empowering for me towear now is a good pair of
jeans, like just worn out,whether I bought'em, worn out,
(14:31):
or I wore'em out, a pair ofcowboy boots because they are
the most comfortable shoes thatI have ever put on and some kind
of shirt.
That's where I feel reallypowerful.
Or mm-hmm.
Or feel really confident.
The other side of that is like along black dress, like mm-hmm.
Flowing dress.
(14:52):
Yeah.
But that's, that's me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But the cowboy boots, for sure.
Yes.
I believe the cowboy boots.
Yeah.
I, I mean, I loveself-expression in clothing and
I feel like I'm kind of comingaround to that, whereas.
Previously I've just been likefollowing the trends of what
looks cute and whatever,whatever.
And now I'm like finding my ownstyle.
(15:13):
And it's empowering to dress inyour own style.
Yeah, for sure.
You do a good job of that.
You have a good style.
Thank you.
Yes.
Thank you.
So the next question we put inhere, and we've kind of already
gotten into it, is modesty justabout clothes or is it a broader
posture of heart?
And I am definitely in.
The latter.
I think it's absolutely aboutposture of heart and your
(15:35):
posture of heart is gonnainfluence the way you dress.
Mm-hmm.
But we'll get into that later,but that's definitely what I
think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
let's look at now like some ararguments against modesty.
'cause there are, there areplenty of schools of thoughts.
One of those was like body shameand control.
(15:55):
Many women they internalize thattheir bodies are inherently
dangerous or distracting, andthe way they choose to cover or
not cover it makes themresponsible for men's thoughts.
And that definitely was a partof, my argument for modesty is.
Men are visual, but I've donemore research on that and I'm
(16:18):
not sure that I had all thefacts with that.
So yeah, same.
You know what I'm saying?
But I feel like mm-hmm.
That was definitely like men arevisual.
You need to not do this.
Otherwise it kind puts the blameon the person that is not the
perpetrator.
Yeah.
They're just trying to livetheir life well, and, and I
(16:39):
mean, God.
Made them a certain way andwe'll get into that later.
But yeah, so, um, also I think,and we had talked about that
body shame and control can leadto self-hatred, fear, or poor
boundaries with self-expression,so it can box people in.
That's why maybe guidelines worka little bit better than hard
(17:00):
and fast rules.
Yeah.
Another argument againstmodesty, and I think this is a
really strong point, is that itreinforces rape culture and
victim blaming.
And this is something that wesee.
And in terms of religiously,when we link modesty to tightly
with morality, those who don'tcomply with it are seen as bad
(17:20):
or at fault in worse cases.
Like if it's a matter of sexualassault or anything.
Yeah.
Are you familiar with thedefinition of rape culture?
No, tell me about it.
Okay, so rape culture is aculture that normalizes sexual
assault because men areinherently lustful creatures,
and the victim can be blamed forsomeone else's behavior.
(17:41):
So, have you ever heard of, butwhat were you wearing?
What was she wearing?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
There was a gray art piece.
I don't know where it was, whodid it, but.
I mean it's, it's sad, but itwas, I think it was a bunch of
mannequins or anything that werewearing clothing that women had
been wearing when they weresexually assaulted, and it was
just everyday clothing.
(18:03):
Like some of the outfits were somodest.
Did that stop'em from gettingsexually assaulted?
No, fortunately not.
So, like we were just talkingabout when you brought up how,
and I was raised in this ideatoo, that men are just visual
Back to the science of this,'cause you said you didn't think
you had all the facts.
I didn't think I did either.
So scientifically, men do have atendency to respond more
(18:26):
strongly to sexual stimuli.
Mm-hmm.
But these urges and thoughts canbe controlled, even if it's
difficult.
It's not a problem that womencan or should feel obligated to
solve.
And I think when we focus toomuch on men being more visual
creatures.
Like women are too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've, I've objectified my fairchairman.
(18:47):
Exactly.
But like all of these things arethrough self-growth and
self-awareness and like gainingrespect for a woman.
Like that's not gonna be anissue.
Right.
I don't think it is.
Or it's an issue that you canalways overcome.
Yeah.
So.
Do with that information, whatyou will.
That's just kind of what I thinkabout it.
And I do feel pretty stronglyabout it.
(19:09):
Uh, yeah.
Yeah.
I think, again, just if you knowthe heart behind it, then, then
you don't even have to getreally deep in the weeds with
even that when you mm-hmm.
If, if we were taught more fromthe inside out versus Yeah.
The outside, inside out,definitely emphasis on the
inside out.
Yes.
(19:29):
So another argument againstmodesty is that it can hinder
bodily autonomy and healthysexual development.
So a focus on modesty can teachwomen that their sexuality is
something to be bottled viamodesty.
And also, I feel like this canaffect other areas that are a
bit larger, like justinteractions with men and stuff
like that.
(19:50):
And I do think it's important.
I, I do acknowledge that sex isdifferent for women than it is
for men in some ways.
And I do believe that you shouldpick very carefully who you, who
you sleep with.
Mm-hmm.
But I also think that womenshould be in touch with their
sexuality.
And when the modesty is linkedto morality and it's pushed so
(20:12):
heavily, I just think that getsin the way of that.
And I think women should beequally as aware of their
sexuality in their bodies as anyother person.
Yeah.
If that makes sense.
It makes total sense.
I'm just gonna interjectsomething right there.
Mm-hmm.
'cause I had a thought.
What I have seen happen is whenthe focus is on that men are,
(20:34):
you are visual and you need tocover yourself up.
Well that can backfire on amother big time because what
you've just told your child is.
You have power, you as a womanhave power and you can use that.
And so that can backfire.
(20:56):
It's just like when people say,and this is somebody has asked
us to cover this, and we willlater, but it's just like when
people say, like a generationalthing, but it's almost like
saying, don't touch that.
But I'm gonna touch it.
So when makes someone want to doit more, it makes somebody wanna
do it more.
And that's, again, guidelinesare better.
(21:16):
But you have, you've just toldthis child, oh, here it is.
Like I have, I have femalefriends that have kids in their
twenties, late twenties,thirties, even when their kids
were in high school.
These kids would be dressed in acertain way and the moms would
be like, oh, she's got the bodyto do it.
I told her, go ahead and do thatnow, because one day you're not
(21:37):
gonna have the body to do that.
I think that also is givingpower.
It's like untethered power.
'cause what you've said is, oh,men are visual.
You've got the power.
You do that now because one daythey won't be looking at you
anymore.
Yeah.
Well, and that was a hundredpercent true in my case.
(21:58):
My mom was making comments aboutit and trying to get me to be
more modest, and what did thatmake me do?
Run in the other direction.
Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, it's true for sure.
But that power that can happento women that.
Can spill way on in your lifeand it has repercussions when,
you know Yeah, it does.
(22:19):
That really can, can really,bring about some scars and
confusion.
Yeah, because, okay, take me, Imarried this man.
We didn't have sex before we gotmarried, and I don't understand
what's wrong with me because hedoesn't wanna have sex every
night.
And I would cry myself to sleep.
(22:40):
And you know what I alwaysthought about?
I didn't wear the right outfit.
Oh my gosh.
I didn't look good enough.
Wow.
So you see how that just cameback around?
Full circle.
Circle.
And I do need to shout out to mymom.
This was not anything that shereally pushed.
Yeah, because, and I think too,there were enough rules out
(23:02):
there that she didn't have to.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
But it that spills over when youteach girls that they have that
kind of power.
When they're not married andthen they get married and
they're finally committed tosomebody and they don't want to
have sex with you every night,you automatically go back to
what visually am I not doingthat he should want me?
(23:27):
Yeah.
What is wrong with me?
It must be my body.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Because even if I'm showing it,he might, he's not interested in
the way I want.
Yes.
Or I think he should beinterested.
Yes.
Well, that's a very profoundrealization and.
I'm kind of thinking back too.
'cause like I said, I ran in theother direction when my mom was
pushing modesty on me and thenin college I kind of had a
(23:48):
realization that I was dressingand it wasn't even like crazy.
Im modestly, but I was showing alot of skin and I was dressing
for the male gaze and I was notdressing for self-expression.
Mm-hmm.
I wasn't dressing for what makesme comfortable, what makes me
confident.
I was dressing for.
Men around me because I wantedattention because I was insecure
(24:10):
and male.
Attention was like plug in thelittle hole.
It was not a permanent fix.
Exactly.
It was a very temporary, veryunfulfilling fix.
Yes.
So good.
Yeah.
I think, we'll, I think we'regonna get into that in some of
the next section arguments formodesty.
Yes, yes.
We have one more point forarguments against modesty.
And I do believe this.
(24:31):
I think some of the rules formodesty, and especially when
it's linked to morality, it'srooted in patriarchy.
Because if you really look atit, modesty codes and what this
religion and that religion tellyou to wear as a woman are an
arbitrary set of rules enforcedon women by men, often an
entirely male run religiousinstitutions.
(24:54):
So just chew on that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And who knows?
They could, could've, it's not awoman making up these rules,
right?
It's not women and, and then,you know, we don't know why it
started initially.
Was it that a man was reallydrawn to people and needed to
put that into account so thatthey could stay?
(25:15):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Pure, I think.
Or religious.
There's so many layers that wentinto how we got to where we are
today.
Yeah.
And the biggest thing is I, Idon't think that these con,
these types of conversationswere had and women didn't have a
seat at the table.
And yes, I think if we wantpeople to dress modestly, and
you're coming at it from areligious standpoint, you have
(25:35):
to have a discussion like this.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Stay tuned.
We're gonna get into all thisother good stuff we have to talk
about.
Yes.
So now let's look at argumentsfor modesty when it's
self-defined and we wanna makesure we say self-defined, that
can be a guided self definition.
Mm-hmm.
And if you're really strugglingwith your mom or maybe somebody
(25:59):
that still is kind of dictatinghow you wear.
Seek somebody else out.
Like find somebody that you canhave a conversation with and,
and not somebody that is gonnaagree with you a hundred percent
of the time, but you know, ifyou could, if you're not able to
have like an educatedconversation or something that's
not so heightened, you mightneed to go and just talk to
(26:21):
somebody different and try toget their, their viewpoint.
Yeah.
All right.
So the first is we haveempowerment through choice.
So this is, this is an argumentfor modesty and dressing.
Modestly by your own choice canbe powerful form of
self-respect, and spiritualalignment.
(26:42):
For instance, like not dressingfor the male gaze because
expression is not freedom.
It's motivated by insecurity orulterior motives.
So we're just saying like.
Make sure that if you'rechoosing this, that you're doing
it for the right reasons.
Yeah.
That was very profound for me.
Mm-hmm.
Because when I was doing theresearch, and I had currently
(27:04):
already realized that at onepoint in my life I was dressing
for the male gaze and justagain, like going back through
it and thinking about what I wasdoing at that time.
Mm-hmm.
The phrase expression is notfreedom if it's motivated by
insecurity.
I was like, wow.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, that's good.
It's true.
It's not freedom if it'smotivated by insecurity or
(27:26):
ulterior motive.
It's, yeah, yeah.
Also this, this choice can actas a boundary against unwanted
attention, and it's less aboutfear and more about agency.
Yeah, definitely.
So yeah, I think that like nomatter what you're wearing, you
might, uh, get unwantedattention because that's just
life.
As a woman.
You ever walk down the street inNew York City, how many times
(27:46):
you got Cat called?
Yeah.
When you're wearing like a.
Full.
Full get up.
Yes, it's gonna happen.
But this is about kind ofclaiming power in the sense of
agency of maybe I just reallyhate when that happens.
Yeah.
So if I wanna dress a certainway and I like this way and it
feels good, then if I get Catcalled less, that's great.
(28:08):
An added bonus.
Okay.
I love that.
Yeah.
The next argument for modestyand what we've kind of been
referring back to startinginwardly and working outwardly
is the focus on inner worth.
So self-defined that word again,modesty can redirect energy from
outward appearance to inwarddevelopment.
(28:28):
And this is big for me because Ifeel like I have been obsessing
over them and trying to get themto be perfect.
And I think that's a very womanexperience.
We all hate our bodies and weall look different, which sucks
and we can't be doing thatanymore.
But when we're focused ondressing more modestly or maybe
just really settling intoself-defined expression through
(28:49):
clothing, we can direct ourenergy toward inward
development.
'cause Lord knows we could usemore of that.
Yes.
So this can help us resist thepressure of perfectionism
comparison and the beautyindustrial complex when social
media has made all of thesethings thrive, and it has made
everything into a comparison anda competition, which is not
(29:11):
good.
And it's just also acknowledgingthat covering our body, our
sexuality, our beauty, doesn'tdiminish any of those things.
In some cases, it can honortheir importance.
So, and save it for those whotruly care about us, which I
really agree on that point aswell.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
(29:31):
Again, that is that whole thingof going inward before going
outward.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and, and you may belistening to this and thinking,
man, I blew that with my kid,but you're gonna have a
grandchild someday and, andmaybe that'll be a granddaughter
that you could start, you know,at that point.
Mm-hmm.
Or you can always go back.
(29:52):
Yeah.
another argument for modesty isrespecting relationship.
So this could be another reasonwhy someone chooses to dress
more modestly than others.
So maybe in marriage, forexample, your body is not
shameful.
In covering it doesn'tnecessarily mean that you feel
ashamed about it.
But instead, you may be choosingto reserve certain expressions
for your partner to honor yourprivate intimacy.
(30:13):
Mm-hmm.
I know.
And I think that's a completelyvalid reason for wanting to
dress modestly as long as it'sself-defined.
Yeah.
The last one is spiritual andcultural in integrity.
So for many women for example,like Muslim, Orthodox, Jewish,
Christian, Amish, all thesekinds of things, having modesty
is like a symbol of their faith,their reverence, or the
community belonging and.
(30:34):
I know I've railed a bunch aboutChristianity and what I think
about the general rules aboutmodesty, but I also acknowledge
that for other women of faiththat this is a symbol of
belonging and a symbol of faithand reverence to them.
And it doesn't feel likerepression to them if they're
choosing it in it'sself-defined.
(30:55):
Right.
But for me, I don't feel likeit's self-defined.
I feel like it's forced.
So there's the difference.
Yes.
Yes.
And, you know, I was looking upsome of this just fashion wise
and they were talking about, Ifound an article that was
talking about, or several thatwas talking about right now, uh,
fashion is in a more modest era.
(31:16):
We're doing more.
Think about it.
There's flowers and long flowydresses.
I don't know.
I mean, it, it, it does tenditself to modesty because a lot
of these are long dresses andthey're flowy and they were
either talking about like withMuslim or Hindu or different,
where they do wear like thecoverings that now they're
(31:38):
making those in silk anddifferent colors.
And so even those, these womenare like.
They're honoring their religion.
There's been a space made forthem to still self-express
within that.
Yeah.
That's cool.
And I think it's just so cool.
That is cool.
And so, yeah, they weredefinitely talking about like
(32:00):
just the differences in thematerials and how a material
feels against you versus, youknow, I just.
I'm about to cry.
I just think it's, I don't knowwhere that's coming from, but I
just think it's No, it's, it'sgood.
I just feel like it has to be soliberating.
Yeah.
For, and I don't, I'm not sayingthat those people are oppressed.
(32:23):
I'm not saying that I feel likethat we feel that way because we
don't truly know it.
But I don't want to feel sorryfor them.
I want to.
I want to celebrate them.
So I am very glad that therehave been some major moves in
(32:47):
allowing those ladies to trulyexpress themselves and still
stay within the guidelines oftheir religion.
Yeah.
So that they can honor theirfaith.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, I agree.
It is really cool.
You good?
Yes.
I'm sorry.
I had a moment.
I know where that came from.
Have a moment.
(33:09):
Uh, but I real, I think we'regetting into a lot of emotional
topics today.
Yeah.
And, and you don't even realizehow much we are the same person.
Are you realizing that more now?
Same person, differentgeneration, so now we're gonna
look at how modesty couldinfluence our marriage,
(33:29):
different boundaries, nuances,alliances, and maybe some
practical ways that we mightwant.
To consider something differentin the way that we conduct
ourselves.
So, so some women, including usin the past for sure, feel
uncomfortable or annoyed whenothers dressed in modestly
(33:50):
around our husbands.
And let's talk about what'sreally underneath that.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So I'll tell you that, we hadalready talked about that.
It was like.
Hm.
Being in a Southern Christianwoman in the presence of a man,
it was definitely no two pieceswimsuits, no shorts, and things
(34:14):
like that.
But when you're tellingsomebody, it doesn't matter how
much they're pursuing God as achild, they are still a child.
And when you tell them that theyhave this kind of power, um, I
think then as we get older,we'll almost project that on.
To other kids or other womenthat we see that are dressing
(34:36):
Yeah.
Promiscuously because we knowthe way it drove us.
Yeah.
We know what that did to us.
You know, Jim, for instance, heworked in a fitness center for
34 years.
My man, every day went to workand saw women in spandex for 34
years now.
(34:58):
How do you deal with that?
It was it very carefully, I'llsay, but just remember, if
you're having major issues withthis part of your life, go to
your spouse first and y'all havea conversation before you go and
(35:18):
blow off a friend or blow themup when they did something
completely innocent.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So Cana, yeah, that's a, yeah,that's a great point.
And I've been saying, I dressedfor the male gaze.
I know why I was wearing what Iwas wearing.
Mm-hmm.
And it wasn't for the rightreasons.
And as a now married woman, Ihave projected that on other
(35:42):
women and like judge them.
And I don't like that I did thatnow because I believe different
things now, but.
I do think it's valid.
Like I think if anyone, likewe've felt these feelings about
other women, I think it's validto feel protective, especially
when you've been conditionedreligiously.
Mm-hmm.
From your upbringing, from yourroots.
Yeah.
I mean, even more so you than I,it's a fear that sets in.
(36:06):
It absolutely is.
Yeah.
So I am kind of deconstructing.
I realize I needed to examinewhere these feelings are coming
from because I.
Would feel disgusted with myselflater that I was like judging
and thinking things about thesewomen when at the end of the day
I trust my husband and I neededto settle in that I did realize
I had some other feelings and Idid have issues trusting men in
(36:28):
general, even though my husbandhas been amazing.
But like that was an issue I hadwith men from experiences that
I've had.
Mm-hmm.
And then also being raised in afaith that was subconsciously
teaching me that men can'tcontrol their urges, so.
Like I was saying earlier, bothgenders have the capacity for
lutful thoughts and it's uponourselves to grow out of it.
(36:49):
And these thoughts I was havingtowards other women were coming
from a place of discomfort.
Like I said, it reminded me ofthe past dressing for male
attention and all that stuff,but I realized once I looked a
little deeper that it really wasabout issues that I was
projecting.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Could you imagine that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we also need to think aboutwhen we're in that situation,
(37:13):
maybe these are some questionsthat we could ponder so that we
don't respond in a way that'sreactive.
Mm-hmm.
Is it about others or about ourown boundaries, relationships,
and past experiences.
So when you are looking at agroup or having a group
(37:33):
situation, and maybe somebodythere is not dressing in a way
that.
That that you wish that theywould is kind of looking and
saying like, is this about themreally?
Or is this about myself?
And Yeah.
Nine times outta 10, it's aboutourselves.
(37:53):
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that, and that brings us,yes.
Yes.
To the next one.
And that brings us to our nextquestion.
Yes.
Can we disagree with someone'spresentation without condemning
it?
And the answer for me afterdoing all of this research is
yes, yes, yes.
A thousand times.
Yes.
Yes.
It's not our business to corrector judge someone else's choices
when we don't know them, wedon't know what they believe,
(38:14):
what values they have.
Mm-hmm.
Everyone's different.
Everyone has different values,everyone has different
experiences.
Everyone has different faith orno faith at all.
It's not our.
Business to be self-righteousand correct, or judge others.
Yeah, I, I agree a hundredpercent with that and of
thankfully, because it is soreligiously bound, thankfully
(38:36):
Jim and I were able to kind ofstep out of a traditional church
setting into more of a communitychurch.
Some people used to call themsecret churches.
And I remember specifically agal that came to our church who
was a stripper.
Hmm.
And she wore the clothes thatshe had and that was all she
had, and this, it was the mostincredible thing.
(38:59):
So she came, she met a guy atthe church, or either the guy
came with her.
Long story short, she getsinvolved in a small group.
They go to this couple smallgroup with another friend that
was leading it, and she was theone that was telling me all
about it.
Turns out they end up.
Marrying each other.
She becomes a Christian.
(39:19):
Mm-hmm.
They end up marrying each other.
They want to get married rightafter service on a Sunday.
So all of her shipper friendscome and they're whole guard.
But what I loved about that wasclearly she never felt judged.
Yeah.
In that setting.
That's awesome.
So that is like, and I justthought about that.
(39:41):
That speaks volumes not to the.
Church itself, the people in thechurch, the community.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
The way we were, uh, focusing onChrist and what we can control
and what we are responsible for.
And so when those kind of thingscome through the door, we've
(40:01):
already dealt with that.
It's not our problem.
So yes.
That's great.
That's an awesome story.
Yeah, it's a great story.
Yeah.
And they are still together,honey.
This has been like nice.
11, 12 years ago.
Huh.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's, in my opinion, that'sChristians doing.
Yes.
That was us doing as chargedwith being the hands and feet of
(40:22):
Jesus.
Yeah.
And just absolutely loving herand accepting her.
Nobody went out and took hershopping.
It was a gradual thing that youdo.
They gotta know how much youcare before they care how much
you know.
Mm-hmm.
So it's, it was just a reallycool thing I, and I'm grateful
that I got to see something likethat in my lifetime.
(40:45):
Yeah.
That's cool.
All right, well next, right, aswe get to our closing, I thought
it would be valuable for us tokind of share a belief
statement.
'cause that's the thing I did atthe end of this process of
deconstructing.
And I thought it would be usefulto share with you guys And as we
get to our challenge of theweek, maybe after you have a
reflection on what modesty meansto you and what you believe
(41:07):
going forward, you can writeyour own belief statement as
well.
'cause I really love that and ithelps for me to have to be able
to look back on things and knowthis is why I believe what I
believe, and this is how Iexplained it.
Right, right.
Go ahead.
I want to hear it.
So.
For me, modesty is not about therules, it's about the intention.
So like I've been saying in thepast, dressing for the male gaze
(41:30):
and for attention and to feelvalidated when I was insecure by
showing a lot of skin did notleave me fulfilled.
Now I dress in a way that makesme feel confident, aligned in my
spiritual beliefs, yet free toexpress myself in ways I want to
without the shame and guilt ofrigid rules and expectations.
As a progressive woman of faith,I think modesty is less about
(41:51):
covering up our skin and showingup with self-respect and
grounded in our value.
I believe we should respectother women's choices about
modesty, whether we agree ornot, because it is a deeply
personal and subjective choiceto make as a woman, and not
everybody is the same asourselves.
Yep.
Mic drop.
Mic drop.
Um, yeah, what you got?
(42:11):
I got this.
Okay.
I wrote it down.
I don't take a whole lot ofnotes, guys, but this one I did.
I was like, she didn't write itdown.
She's just gonna it.
No, I didn't.
I act, I am not winging thispart of our conversation.
Alright.
My belief statement is thatmodesty is a mindset.
(42:32):
It's a core value that promoteshumility, consideration, and a
focus on character over externalappearances.
It encompasses much more thanjust how we dress.
It's about a way of thinking,speaking and acting that
reflects respect for myself andfor others.
(42:53):
Mm-hmm.
So I truly believe that modestyis a mindset, and I think as a
generation, multiplegenerations, if we can continue
to have that in the forefront ofour mind, we will not have to
police what our children wear.
Yeah.
We won't have to.
What do you think younger Ronniewould think about?
(43:13):
What just came outta your mouthright now?
Okay.
Younger Ronnie.
Okay.
Well, I've struggled with a lot,but confidence is not one of
them until about two years agoand I'm over that now, so I feel
she's back.
I am back.
But honestly, Ronnie would say,you know what, idiot.
(43:38):
No, I'm just kidding.
I'm gonna tell you what young,I'm gonna tell you what older
Ronnie would say to youngerRonnie.
Can I say that or no?
It's gotta be what would beyounger.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think older Ronnie would sayto younger Ronnie, you did the
best you could with what you hadand when you knew better.
You did better.
So good job.
Mm-hmm.
Made that the truth.
Yeah.
(43:59):
Yay.
I think that, Cana now would saythe same thing to younger Cana.
Absolutely.
And I also think that if I readlike younger Cana would say, I
think she would be proud of me,honestly.
Oh yes.
Younger caner would be so proud.
And I do have to say that, andI've already told Cana this, I
(44:22):
have never.
She has never made me feeluncomfortable with the way she
dresses in front of me, in frontof Jim.
And, you know, and, and this isa, this is somebody who, like
you lived with us before youwere married and even while you
were married.
(44:42):
So I just wanna say to you, Iappreciate that.
Did she wear things or does shewear things that I don't wear?
Absolutely.
But again, if you are havingmajor issues with somebody being
immodest, check yourself andcheck your relationship.
(45:06):
Ain't that the truth?
Yeah.
Cool.
Cool.
Okay.
Go to therapy probably.
Yes.
Yes.
So let's look at what she said.
Cana, tell us about what shesaid today, what she was saying.
Okay.
This quote, what you wear shouldbe a reflection of who you are,
not who the world tells you tobe.
Love that.
And this is from Nadia BullsWeber, a progressive Lutheran
(45:27):
pastor.
So good.
So good.
Mm-hmm.
Like we had said earlier, wewould challenge you to write out
a belief expectation that youhave, or belief statement that
you have now.
Mm-hmm.
Especially if you have youngerkids and it's not time to talk
about that, or if you're just.
Write it down, it's gonna changeit's fluid, but have something,
(45:50):
like you said, Cana, like somekind of foundation that is
solid.
And then there's other, soother, the storms come.
Yes.
The crises come or the conflictscome, or your kids start asking
you questions about X, Y, and Z.
Or your daughter's body startschanging.
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
What you believe and how todiscuss it with her.
Yes.
So, yeah.
Yes.
Reflect on what it means to younow, not what you were taught,
(46:13):
not what your community expects.
Yes.
What does it mean to you?
Yeah.
The keyword we right now.
Yes, yes, yes.
Alright, well we thank you somuch as always.
Please.
Um.
Like us, follow us on ourdifferent platforms.
Uh mm-hmm.
Thank you so much for yourfeedback.
We love getting your messages,so keep that up.
(46:35):
And that's it for today and theway we end every show.
And that's, that's the tea.
The tea.
Thank you guys for joining us onthis enlightening discussion.
getting a little spicy.
We're about I miss you.
I miss you too.
It's terrible.
This is bad.
This is so lonely.
I am so like trying to figureout how I can get there without
it being so hot.
I might just have to fly in andwe just stay inside the whole
time.
But then miserable.
(00:32):
That's not fun.
I know it's miserable.
So.
But anyway, speaking of summer,we have a great subject to talk
about today.
Boy, did we.
Yes.
So there's just in time and it'sgoing to be a great focus on
generational differences.
Yes, we've been talking and wewanted to emphasize that more
(00:53):
obviously, like any otherepisode and discussion we've
had, we've been giving differentopinions from different
generations, but we reallywanted to focus on topics that
differ generationally as awhole, so we can get into the
nitty gritty of it and start aconversation with you guys, our
listeners.
So the topic we're gonna bedigging into today is one that
tends to stir the pot.
(01:13):
And it is modesty.
Yes.
So before we really dive intowhat we're gonna be covering
today, we just wanted to let youguys know our backgrounds and
it's relevant to the topic.
So we are gonna discussreligious material today and our
religious beliefs.
So if that's not something youwant to hear, go ahead and skip
this episode.
You don't have to listen to it,but we just wanna preface that
with it is gonna be an aspect ofthe conversation today.
(01:35):
So yes, I was raised religiouslyand my.
Opinions on modesty and mybeliefs have been rooted in
religion.
I always had a rebelliousstreak, often by showing more
skin.
So we'll get into that.
And I'm now a blue docChristian, living in a red
state, so I have some differentopinions on modesty than some
(01:57):
may believe.
We'll get into it, but yeah.
Ronnie, do you wanna share yourbackground and how that might
influence the way you view andtalk about modesty?
Yes, yes.
So my background is I've alwayslived in the south, always lived
in the state of South Carolina,Southern Baptist, born and bred,
Modesty was a big thing in ourchurch and, big also in our
(02:18):
schools.
It's just crazy once I reallystarted digging into this to see
how many aspects of probablyjust the culture of Southeastern
folks that we all, regardless ofwhere we were or sometimes even
if we went to church or not,have kind of the same, like each
generation has their same thingsthat they're kind of carrying
(02:41):
through.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's definitelydifferent than me growing up in
Colorado.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
It's for sure different.
So yeah, we'll, we'll talk aboutthat maybe in the future.
But anyways.
This is obviously a very complexand emotional topic that's often
tied to culture, spirituality,patriarchy, self-worth.
There's a lot of layers that gointo it.
And at the end of the day, ourgoal is not to tell you what to
(03:03):
believe about modesty.
We're just gonna explore theselayers and peel'em back and kind
of share our own deconstructionprocess and beliefs.
Yeah.
'cause that's essentially whatwe've been doing when preparing
this episode.
Mm-hmm.
We've been kind ofdeconstructing why we believe
what we believe about modesty,and I actually kind of.
Figured out mine.
I really feel like, and you saidthis too, Ronnie, I think we
were on the phone, that youropinions on modesty and your
(03:25):
beliefs about it kind of waxedand waned through different
seasons of life.
Yes, and I've kind of felt that,and I think there's value in
kind of like planning your feetsomewhere.
It's not to say that you can'tchange if you have information,
but I think with something likethis that is so tied to who you
are, it's important to have afirm.
Yeah.
Point to stand on, right?
(03:46):
So that when storms of lifecome, you know why you believe
what you believe, right?
And you're confident in it.
Yes.
So we're just going to, youknow, peel back the layers and
we don't wanna tell you what tobelieve, but we're gonna leave
some space for reflection andcollective growth and respect.
and one thing with that, you'regonna hear things you might not
agree with today, but we areoffering different perspectives
(04:06):
because that's part ofdeconstructing.
You can't just.
Look at stuff you agree with.
Mm-hmm.
Like stuff that supports yourpoint.
Mm-hmm.
You have to look at all sides ofthe aisle and then you make a
decision.
So yeah, that's what our plan isto dig into modesty today.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Awesome, awesome.
Well we are generational tea andI am your host, Ronnie, and this
is, yeah.
(04:26):
Cana.
Welcome guys.
Yes.
Thank you for joining us.
Yeah.
So golly, this whole modestything, um, we just Really went
back to bare bones.
And, and there's just a, there'sthings that overarching, that
contribute to our thoughtprocess about modesty.
Yeah.
And one of those is faith.
(04:47):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and we know that throughoutthe Bible, the general meaning
of modesty is often connected tohumility, dignity, and respect.
Mm-hmm.
So we'll dig a little bitfurther into that, but we, we
did just wanna say for.
Purposes of our conversation, itmay be more of how we dress
because we are women and it'ssummer.
(05:09):
And so we can come back to thislater, but that is definitely
the other thing that really candrive how we feel about modesty
is the culture.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I was born in 1972,but did most of my growing in
the eighties.
Graduated high school in in1990.
So pretty much all of my, mostof my formative years as far as
(05:30):
me establishing things that Iwanted to believe in because I
had a passion about it or it wasimportant to me, really was in
the, eighties.
Yeah.
That, because we know thatclothing, standard shift,
geography shifts, powerdynamics, shift race and more.
So there are a lot of thingsculturally that shape the way we
(05:52):
feel about mony as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
As well as modern languagethat's important to consider
when we're talking about modestybecause like you were just
saying with the Bible, Iactually went through and looked
up any Bible verse that wastalking about modesty, and it
does really just mean likehumility and dignity and
respect.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(06:12):
But it's interesting because wehear modesty now and that's
conflated with covering up ormaybe even being less sexual.
Right.
So it.
That's a whole nother topic forhow we got from point A to point
B, but that's what we're dealingwith now.
So let's talk about it.
Ronnie, some talking points toget us started.
I feel like these are gonna beinteresting.
What did modesty mean for usgrowing up?
(06:33):
Okay.
For this, I'm really gonna justlook at clothing because there
is enough clothing wise.
So growing up, started out atchurch.
And it was covering up for guystoo.
Like, so for instance, at churchwe had to have a dress that was
below our knees.
We should cover our shoulders.
(06:54):
I'd never wanted undressed tochurch, ever, you know, just
like covering my shoulders.
Guys weren't allowed to wearhats in the sanctuary or even in
church at all initially, sothere were no hats, like ball
caps.
The guys needed to have theirshirt.
Tucked in and a belt, those kindof things.
So that part was growing up.
(07:15):
The interesting thing was thatthat really, and it could have
just been by default, but itshaped.
Modesty in the school system atthat time.
Mm-hmm.
I really, really feel like itdid.
Like if we were shorts, they hadto be below the tips of our
fingers.
And you know, of course, youknow, no, no showing of the
shoulders that tended to, ohGod, don't even get me started.
(07:38):
I, I would die.
I would lie, lie I couldn't, mymiddle school and my high school
can't show your shoulders.
Yeah.
I was raging about it for years.
Yes, I still am.
Yes.
Yes.
Definitely.
No cutoffs of any kind.
That was a no-no.
Oh.
And that just spilled over into,like I said, like school,
(07:59):
because that is our work whenwe're that age.
And you know, I was a tall kid,uh, who turned into a tall
teenager.
Mega tall, and especially inmiddle school.
'cause the boys were shorter.
But I always had trouble withthat shorts below the tips of my
fingers.
Mm-hmm.
Because I also have very longarms.
(08:21):
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I can't tell you thenumber of times that I would be
called to the principal's officebecause I had on two short
shorts and you know, all that.
My parents just finally, I thinkthey got tired of it and were
just like.
Take an extra change of clothes.
We're not coming to pick you upto go home to change every time,
you know?
It's too short.
(08:42):
when we got to high school, itwas definitely still no short,
short still that lengthsituation.
And I was a cheerleader, whichwas my only saving grace because
we wore uniforms most of thetime.
Well, I remember I was thetallest.
And second to tallest was WendyGarbe and Roach that we've
talked about on this, on thispodcast before.
(09:02):
And she was tall as well, butnot as tall as me.
Well, back then you didn't getany uniforms.
You did car washes to earn onenew uniform per year and all
your rest of your uniforms werehanded down to you.
Well, the fact that thereweren't very many five foot nine
thin as a rail girls, I alwaysstruggled with my skirts being
(09:26):
too short, and I did getattention that was not invited
and it wasn't like I could doanything about it.
Looking back, I maybe couldhave, but no one was telling me
to do something different, so Ijust dealt with what I had.
But, also church, camps, any ofthat.
Definitely no two pieces.
(09:47):
No two piece swimsuits, honey.
No ma'am.
Not gonna happen.
Mm-hmm.
And so it was one pieces and,and then it was like not over
revealing clothes or too tightof clothes.
And so I basically, like when Iwould go out with my girlfriends
in high school or after highschool, I would borrow my
friend's clothes.
(10:08):
'cause I didn't really have, Ididn't have that short, tight
dress, you know?
Yeah.
So.
Here it is, mom.
My mom listens every week.
I am spill my guts.
I mean, it's real.
It is so real.
Yeah.
So, that was kind of like how itwas growing up, like, and the
(10:31):
whole thing was you don't wannadraw attention to yourself.
And I think that the Christiancommunity took a little bit of
truth.
As they do so many times, alittle bit of truth, and then
they added to it.
And that's, I believe, howmodesty got shifted to an
exterior first and then aninterior where really modesty
(10:57):
starts inside.
And then the reflection of thatcan be exterior.
Mm-hmm.
But everybody that dressesimmodestly is not arrogant.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
And, and mm-hmm.
And you know, the other thing itdoes when you take a rule or a
commandment or something that'sscriptural and you add all those
things to it, what happens isyou start pitting people against
(11:19):
each other.
Yeah.
Because now you've informed themof a rule that you really don't
understand the heart behind it.
Well that, and also I am a firmbeliever, like as a Christian,
if someone doesn't prescribe tomy faith and my beliefs, I have
no right to judge them or tellthem they're doing something
wrong because they're operatingon a completely different belief
(11:39):
system than I am.
Right.
And we are not.
God.
No, we're not.
We're not.
We can only control ourselves.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
How about we ran into the Yes,yes, yes.
So that's a little bit about megrowing up and I took too long,
but.
How about you Pan?
No, you're fine.
Yeah.
This is interesting because,well, we're from two different
(12:01):
generations, obviously.
Yeah.
And mine looked a lot different.
I was raised religiously, but itwas also kind of an interesting
dynamic.
We weren't in church everySunday like you were.
'cause my family had beenthrough a cult and some church
trauma and our relationship withreligion and church was
complicated.
But at the end of the day.
Especially my mom was very, forthe modesty standards that are
(12:25):
often associated withChristianity, and as also a tall
woman, I struggled to find stuffthat fit right.
Yeah.
And you know, I just remembergrowing up and there was always
comments, like, especially inhigh school when they did let me
decide what I want to wear forthe most part.
Mm-hmm.
Like.
I would be wearing jean shorts,not even booty shorts, and my
(12:46):
mom would make comments on,they're too short or That is too
tight, or, I wasn't allowed towear a bikini until I was in
high school.
Probably.
All that kinds of stuff.
And I felt like such arebellious urge behind it
because one, it was neverexplained to me like in the
right way, I think.
Mm-hmm.
Why I need to be modest.
It was.
You're gonna attract their ownkind of attention, and that's
(13:07):
just what Christians do, andblah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Mm-hmm.
And I felt like if I would'vehad someone to explain to me,
like the stuff that we're aboutto get into like I would've been
able to form my own opinions onit.
And I think I probably maybewould've dressed differently,
but also I just, I don't know.
I hated being told you wereshowing too much skin, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
I hated it.
(13:28):
And yeah, we'll get into allthat a little bit later, but.
The next question is, what feelsmost empowering for us to wear
now and why?
for me personally, whatever Ifeel comfortable in is the most
empowering for me.
It's empowering for me to beable to choose and I'll think
about anyone else when I'mthinking about what I'm putting
(13:49):
on my body.
And I'll get into later kind ofwhat I believe about modesty and
why I choose the clothes I maychoose.
But at the end of the day, it'sempowering for me to know that.
I'm not dressing for anyoneelse.
I'm dressing for myself and I'mexpressing myself through my
clothes and I'm gonna becomfortable.
So when it's 115 degrees here inLouisiana, I'm sorry, but I'm
gonna be wearing a crop top andshorts.
(14:09):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
A hundred percent.
'cause oh my gosh, I'm gonnadie.
Yeah, that part, for me.
What feels empowering for me towear now is a good pair of
jeans, like just worn out,whether I bought'em, worn out,
(14:31):
or I wore'em out, a pair ofcowboy boots because they are
the most comfortable shoes thatI have ever put on and some kind
of shirt.
That's where I feel reallypowerful.
Or mm-hmm.
Or feel really confident.
The other side of that is like along black dress, like mm-hmm.
Flowing dress.
(14:52):
Yeah.
But that's, that's me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But the cowboy boots, for sure.
Yes.
I believe the cowboy boots.
Yeah.
I, I mean, I loveself-expression in clothing and
I feel like I'm kind of comingaround to that, whereas.
Previously I've just been likefollowing the trends of what
looks cute and whatever,whatever.
And now I'm like finding my ownstyle.
(15:13):
And it's empowering to dress inyour own style.
Yeah, for sure.
You do a good job of that.
You have a good style.
Thank you.
Yes.
Thank you.
So the next question we put inhere, and we've kind of already
gotten into it, is modesty justabout clothes or is it a broader
posture of heart?
And I am definitely in.
The latter.
I think it's absolutely aboutposture of heart and your
(15:35):
posture of heart is gonnainfluence the way you dress.
Mm-hmm.
But we'll get into that later,but that's definitely what I
think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
let's look at now like some ararguments against modesty.
'cause there are, there areplenty of schools of thoughts.
One of those was like body shameand control.
(15:55):
Many women they internalize thattheir bodies are inherently
dangerous or distracting, andthe way they choose to cover or
not cover it makes themresponsible for men's thoughts.
And that definitely was a partof, my argument for modesty is.
Men are visual, but I've donemore research on that and I'm
(16:18):
not sure that I had all thefacts with that.
So yeah, same.
You know what I'm saying?
But I feel like mm-hmm.
That was definitely like men arevisual.
You need to not do this.
Otherwise it kind puts the blameon the person that is not the
perpetrator.
Yeah.
They're just trying to livetheir life well, and, and I
(16:39):
mean, God.
Made them a certain way andwe'll get into that later.
But yeah, so, um, also I think,and we had talked about that
body shame and control can leadto self-hatred, fear, or poor
boundaries with self-expression,so it can box people in.
That's why maybe guidelines worka little bit better than hard
(17:00):
and fast rules.
Yeah.
Another argument againstmodesty, and I think this is a
really strong point, is that itreinforces rape culture and
victim blaming.
And this is something that wesee.
And in terms of religiously,when we link modesty to tightly
with morality, those who don'tcomply with it are seen as bad
(17:20):
or at fault in worse cases.
Like if it's a matter of sexualassault or anything.
Yeah.
Are you familiar with thedefinition of rape culture?
No, tell me about it.
Okay, so rape culture is aculture that normalizes sexual
assault because men areinherently lustful creatures,
and the victim can be blamed forsomeone else's behavior.
(17:41):
So, have you ever heard of, butwhat were you wearing?
What was she wearing?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
There was a gray art piece.
I don't know where it was, whodid it, but.
I mean it's, it's sad, but itwas, I think it was a bunch of
mannequins or anything that werewearing clothing that women had
been wearing when they weresexually assaulted, and it was
just everyday clothing.
(18:03):
Like some of the outfits were somodest.
Did that stop'em from gettingsexually assaulted?
No, fortunately not.
So, like we were just talkingabout when you brought up how,
and I was raised in this ideatoo, that men are just visual
Back to the science of this,'cause you said you didn't think
you had all the facts.
I didn't think I did either.
So scientifically, men do have atendency to respond more
(18:26):
strongly to sexual stimuli.
Mm-hmm.
But these urges and thoughts canbe controlled, even if it's
difficult.
It's not a problem that womencan or should feel obligated to
solve.
And I think when we focus toomuch on men being more visual
creatures.
Like women are too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've, I've objectified my fairchairman.
(18:47):
Exactly.
But like all of these things arethrough self-growth and
self-awareness and like gainingrespect for a woman.
Like that's not gonna be anissue.
Right.
I don't think it is.
Or it's an issue that you canalways overcome.
Yeah.
So.
Do with that information, whatyou will.
That's just kind of what I thinkabout it.
And I do feel pretty stronglyabout it.
(19:09):
Uh, yeah.
Yeah.
I think, again, just if you knowthe heart behind it, then, then
you don't even have to getreally deep in the weeds with
even that when you mm-hmm.
If, if we were taught more fromthe inside out versus Yeah.
The outside, inside out,definitely emphasis on the
inside out.
Yes.
(19:29):
So another argument againstmodesty is that it can hinder
bodily autonomy and healthysexual development.
So a focus on modesty can teachwomen that their sexuality is
something to be bottled viamodesty.
And also, I feel like this canaffect other areas that are a
bit larger, like justinteractions with men and stuff
like that.
(19:50):
And I do think it's important.
I, I do acknowledge that sex isdifferent for women than it is
for men in some ways.
And I do believe that you shouldpick very carefully who you, who
you sleep with.
Mm-hmm.
But I also think that womenshould be in touch with their
sexuality.
And when the modesty is linkedto morality and it's pushed so
(20:12):
heavily, I just think that getsin the way of that.
And I think women should beequally as aware of their
sexuality in their bodies as anyother person.
Yeah.
If that makes sense.
It makes total sense.
I'm just gonna interjectsomething right there.
Mm-hmm.
'cause I had a thought.
What I have seen happen is whenthe focus is on that men are,
(20:34):
you are visual and you need tocover yourself up.
Well that can backfire on amother big time because what
you've just told your child is.
You have power, you as a womanhave power and you can use that.
And so that can backfire.
(20:56):
It's just like when people say,and this is somebody has asked
us to cover this, and we willlater, but it's just like when
people say, like a generationalthing, but it's almost like
saying, don't touch that.
But I'm gonna touch it.
So when makes someone want to doit more, it makes somebody wanna
do it more.
And that's, again, guidelinesare better.
(21:16):
But you have, you've just toldthis child, oh, here it is.
Like I have, I have femalefriends that have kids in their
twenties, late twenties,thirties, even when their kids
were in high school.
These kids would be dressed in acertain way and the moms would
be like, oh, she's got the bodyto do it.
I told her, go ahead and do thatnow, because one day you're not
(21:37):
gonna have the body to do that.
I think that also is givingpower.
It's like untethered power.
'cause what you've said is, oh,men are visual.
You've got the power.
You do that now because one daythey won't be looking at you
anymore.
Yeah.
Well, and that was a hundredpercent true in my case.
(21:58):
My mom was making comments aboutit and trying to get me to be
more modest, and what did thatmake me do?
Run in the other direction.
Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, it's true for sure.
But that power that can happento women that.
Can spill way on in your lifeand it has repercussions when,
you know Yeah, it does.
(22:19):
That really can, can really,bring about some scars and
confusion.
Yeah, because, okay, take me, Imarried this man.
We didn't have sex before we gotmarried, and I don't understand
what's wrong with me because hedoesn't wanna have sex every
night.
And I would cry myself to sleep.
(22:40):
And you know what I alwaysthought about?
I didn't wear the right outfit.
Oh my gosh.
I didn't look good enough.
Wow.
So you see how that just cameback around?
Full circle.
Circle.
And I do need to shout out to mymom.
This was not anything that shereally pushed.
Yeah, because, and I think too,there were enough rules out
(23:02):
there that she didn't have to.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
But it that spills over when youteach girls that they have that
kind of power.
When they're not married andthen they get married and
they're finally committed tosomebody and they don't want to
have sex with you every night,you automatically go back to
what visually am I not doingthat he should want me?
(23:27):
Yeah.
What is wrong with me?
It must be my body.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Because even if I'm showing it,he might, he's not interested in
the way I want.
Yes.
Or I think he should beinterested.
Yes.
Well, that's a very profoundrealization and.
I'm kind of thinking back too.
'cause like I said, I ran in theother direction when my mom was
pushing modesty on me and thenin college I kind of had a
(23:48):
realization that I was dressingand it wasn't even like crazy.
Im modestly, but I was showing alot of skin and I was dressing
for the male gaze and I was notdressing for self-expression.
Mm-hmm.
I wasn't dressing for what makesme comfortable, what makes me
confident.
I was dressing for.
Men around me because I wantedattention because I was insecure
(24:10):
and male.
Attention was like plug in thelittle hole.
It was not a permanent fix.
Exactly.
It was a very temporary, veryunfulfilling fix.
Yes.
So good.
Yeah.
I think, we'll, I think we'regonna get into that in some of
the next section arguments formodesty.
Yes, yes.
We have one more point forarguments against modesty.
And I do believe this.
(24:31):
I think some of the rules formodesty, and especially when
it's linked to morality, it'srooted in patriarchy.
Because if you really look atit, modesty codes and what this
religion and that religion tellyou to wear as a woman are an
arbitrary set of rules enforcedon women by men, often an
entirely male run religiousinstitutions.
(24:54):
So just chew on that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And who knows?
They could, could've, it's not awoman making up these rules,
right?
It's not women and, and then,you know, we don't know why it
started initially.
Was it that a man was reallydrawn to people and needed to
put that into account so thatthey could stay?
(25:15):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Pure, I think.
Or religious.
There's so many layers that wentinto how we got to where we are
today.
Yeah.
And the biggest thing is I, Idon't think that these con,
these types of conversationswere had and women didn't have a
seat at the table.
And yes, I think if we wantpeople to dress modestly, and
you're coming at it from areligious standpoint, you have
(25:35):
to have a discussion like this.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Stay tuned.
We're gonna get into all thisother good stuff we have to talk
about.
Yes.
So now let's look at argumentsfor modesty when it's
self-defined and we wanna makesure we say self-defined, that
can be a guided self definition.
Mm-hmm.
And if you're really strugglingwith your mom or maybe somebody
(25:59):
that still is kind of dictatinghow you wear.
Seek somebody else out.
Like find somebody that you canhave a conversation with and,
and not somebody that is gonnaagree with you a hundred percent
of the time, but you know, ifyou could, if you're not able to
have like an educatedconversation or something that's
not so heightened, you mightneed to go and just talk to
(26:21):
somebody different and try toget their, their viewpoint.
Yeah.
All right.
So the first is we haveempowerment through choice.
So this is, this is an argumentfor modesty and dressing.
Modestly by your own choice canbe powerful form of
self-respect, and spiritualalignment.
(26:42):
For instance, like not dressingfor the male gaze because
expression is not freedom.
It's motivated by insecurity orulterior motives.
So we're just saying like.
Make sure that if you'rechoosing this, that you're doing
it for the right reasons.
Yeah.
That was very profound for me.
Mm-hmm.
Because when I was doing theresearch, and I had currently
(27:04):
already realized that at onepoint in my life I was dressing
for the male gaze and justagain, like going back through
it and thinking about what I wasdoing at that time.
Mm-hmm.
The phrase expression is notfreedom if it's motivated by
insecurity.
I was like, wow.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, that's good.
It's true.
It's not freedom if it'smotivated by insecurity or
(27:26):
ulterior motive.
It's, yeah, yeah.
Also this, this choice can actas a boundary against unwanted
attention, and it's less aboutfear and more about agency.
Yeah, definitely.
So yeah, I think that like nomatter what you're wearing, you
might, uh, get unwantedattention because that's just
life.
As a woman.
You ever walk down the street inNew York City, how many times
(27:46):
you got Cat called?
Yeah.
When you're wearing like a.
Full.
Full get up.
Yes, it's gonna happen.
But this is about kind ofclaiming power in the sense of
agency of maybe I just reallyhate when that happens.
Yeah.
So if I wanna dress a certainway and I like this way and it
feels good, then if I get Catcalled less, that's great.
(28:08):
An added bonus.
Okay.
I love that.
Yeah.
The next argument for modestyand what we've kind of been
referring back to startinginwardly and working outwardly
is the focus on inner worth.
So self-defined that word again,modesty can redirect energy from
outward appearance to inwarddevelopment.
(28:28):
And this is big for me because Ifeel like I have been obsessing
over them and trying to get themto be perfect.
And I think that's a very womanexperience.
We all hate our bodies and weall look different, which sucks
and we can't be doing thatanymore.
But when we're focused ondressing more modestly or maybe
just really settling intoself-defined expression through
(28:49):
clothing, we can direct ourenergy toward inward
development.
'cause Lord knows we could usemore of that.
Yes.
So this can help us resist thepressure of perfectionism
comparison and the beautyindustrial complex when social
media has made all of thesethings thrive, and it has made
everything into a comparison anda competition, which is not
(29:11):
good.
And it's just also acknowledgingthat covering our body, our
sexuality, our beauty, doesn'tdiminish any of those things.
In some cases, it can honortheir importance.
So, and save it for those whotruly care about us, which I
really agree on that point aswell.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
(29:31):
Again, that is that whole thingof going inward before going
outward.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and, and you may belistening to this and thinking,
man, I blew that with my kid,but you're gonna have a
grandchild someday and, andmaybe that'll be a granddaughter
that you could start, you know,at that point.
Mm-hmm.
Or you can always go back.
(29:52):
Yeah.
another argument for modesty isrespecting relationship.
So this could be another reasonwhy someone chooses to dress
more modestly than others.
So maybe in marriage, forexample, your body is not
shameful.
In covering it doesn'tnecessarily mean that you feel
ashamed about it.
But instead, you may be choosingto reserve certain expressions
for your partner to honor yourprivate intimacy.
(30:13):
Mm-hmm.
I know.
And I think that's a completelyvalid reason for wanting to
dress modestly as long as it'sself-defined.
Yeah.
The last one is spiritual andcultural in integrity.
So for many women for example,like Muslim, Orthodox, Jewish,
Christian, Amish, all thesekinds of things, having modesty
is like a symbol of their faith,their reverence, or the
community belonging and.
(30:34):
I know I've railed a bunch aboutChristianity and what I think
about the general rules aboutmodesty, but I also acknowledge
that for other women of faiththat this is a symbol of
belonging and a symbol of faithand reverence to them.
And it doesn't feel likerepression to them if they're
choosing it in it'sself-defined.
(30:55):
Right.
But for me, I don't feel likeit's self-defined.
I feel like it's forced.
So there's the difference.
Yes.
Yes.
And, you know, I was looking upsome of this just fashion wise
and they were talking about, Ifound an article that was
talking about, or several thatwas talking about right now, uh,
fashion is in a more modest era.
(31:16):
We're doing more.
Think about it.
There's flowers and long flowydresses.
I don't know.
I mean, it, it, it does tenditself to modesty because a lot
of these are long dresses andthey're flowy and they were
either talking about like withMuslim or Hindu or different,
where they do wear like thecoverings that now they're
(31:38):
making those in silk anddifferent colors.
And so even those, these womenare like.
They're honoring their religion.
There's been a space made forthem to still self-express
within that.
Yeah.
That's cool.
And I think it's just so cool.
That is cool.
And so, yeah, they weredefinitely talking about like
(32:00):
just the differences in thematerials and how a material
feels against you versus, youknow, I just.
I'm about to cry.
I just think it's, I don't knowwhere that's coming from, but I
just think it's No, it's, it'sgood.
I just feel like it has to be soliberating.
Yeah.
For, and I don't, I'm not sayingthat those people are oppressed.
(32:23):
I'm not saying that I feel likethat we feel that way because we
don't truly know it.
But I don't want to feel sorryfor them.
I want to.
I want to celebrate them.
So I am very glad that therehave been some major moves in
(32:47):
allowing those ladies to trulyexpress themselves and still
stay within the guidelines oftheir religion.
Yeah.
So that they can honor theirfaith.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, I agree.
It is really cool.
You good?
Yes.
I'm sorry.
I had a moment.
I know where that came from.
Have a moment.
(33:09):
Uh, but I real, I think we'regetting into a lot of emotional
topics today.
Yeah.
And, and you don't even realizehow much we are the same person.
Are you realizing that more now?
Same person, differentgeneration, so now we're gonna
look at how modesty couldinfluence our marriage,
(33:29):
different boundaries, nuances,alliances, and maybe some
practical ways that we mightwant.
To consider something differentin the way that we conduct
ourselves.
So, so some women, including usin the past for sure, feel
uncomfortable or annoyed whenothers dressed in modestly
(33:50):
around our husbands.
And let's talk about what'sreally underneath that.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So I'll tell you that, we hadalready talked about that.
It was like.
Hm.
Being in a Southern Christianwoman in the presence of a man,
it was definitely no two pieceswimsuits, no shorts, and things
(34:14):
like that.
But when you're tellingsomebody, it doesn't matter how
much they're pursuing God as achild, they are still a child.
And when you tell them that theyhave this kind of power, um, I
think then as we get older,we'll almost project that on.
To other kids or other womenthat we see that are dressing
(34:36):
Yeah.
Promiscuously because we knowthe way it drove us.
Yeah.
We know what that did to us.
You know, Jim, for instance, heworked in a fitness center for
34 years.
My man, every day went to workand saw women in spandex for 34
years now.
(34:58):
How do you deal with that?
It was it very carefully, I'llsay, but just remember, if
you're having major issues withthis part of your life, go to
your spouse first and y'all havea conversation before you go and
(35:18):
blow off a friend or blow themup when they did something
completely innocent.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So Cana, yeah, that's a, yeah,that's a great point.
And I've been saying, I dressedfor the male gaze.
I know why I was wearing what Iwas wearing.
Mm-hmm.
And it wasn't for the rightreasons.
And as a now married woman, Ihave projected that on other
(35:42):
women and like judge them.
And I don't like that I did thatnow because I believe different
things now, but.
I do think it's valid.
Like I think if anyone, likewe've felt these feelings about
other women, I think it's validto feel protective, especially
when you've been conditionedreligiously.
Mm-hmm.
From your upbringing, from yourroots.
Yeah.
I mean, even more so you than I,it's a fear that sets in.
(36:06):
It absolutely is.
Yeah.
So I am kind of deconstructing.
I realize I needed to examinewhere these feelings are coming
from because I.
Would feel disgusted with myselflater that I was like judging
and thinking things about thesewomen when at the end of the day
I trust my husband and I neededto settle in that I did realize
I had some other feelings and Idid have issues trusting men in
(36:28):
general, even though my husbandhas been amazing.
But like that was an issue I hadwith men from experiences that
I've had.
Mm-hmm.
And then also being raised in afaith that was subconsciously
teaching me that men can'tcontrol their urges, so.
Like I was saying earlier, bothgenders have the capacity for
lutful thoughts and it's uponourselves to grow out of it.
(36:49):
And these thoughts I was havingtowards other women were coming
from a place of discomfort.
Like I said, it reminded me ofthe past dressing for male
attention and all that stuff,but I realized once I looked a
little deeper that it really wasabout issues that I was
projecting.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Could you imagine that?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we also need to think aboutwhen we're in that situation,
(37:13):
maybe these are some questionsthat we could ponder so that we
don't respond in a way that'sreactive.
Mm-hmm.
Is it about others or about ourown boundaries, relationships,
and past experiences.
So when you are looking at agroup or having a group
(37:33):
situation, and maybe somebodythere is not dressing in a way
that.
That that you wish that theywould is kind of looking and
saying like, is this about themreally?
Or is this about myself?
And Yeah.
Nine times outta 10, it's aboutourselves.
(37:53):
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that, and that brings us,yes.
Yes.
To the next one.
And that brings us to our nextquestion.
Yes.
Can we disagree with someone'spresentation without condemning
it?
And the answer for me afterdoing all of this research is
yes, yes, yes.
A thousand times.
Yes.
Yes.
It's not our business to corrector judge someone else's choices
when we don't know them, wedon't know what they believe,
(38:14):
what values they have.
Mm-hmm.
Everyone's different.
Everyone has different values,everyone has different
experiences.
Everyone has different faith orno faith at all.
It's not our.
Business to be self-righteousand correct, or judge others.
Yeah, I, I agree a hundredpercent with that and of
thankfully, because it is soreligiously bound, thankfully
(38:36):
Jim and I were able to kind ofstep out of a traditional church
setting into more of a communitychurch.
Some people used to call themsecret churches.
And I remember specifically agal that came to our church who
was a stripper.
Hmm.
And she wore the clothes thatshe had and that was all she
had, and this, it was the mostincredible thing.
(38:59):
So she came, she met a guy atthe church, or either the guy
came with her.
Long story short, she getsinvolved in a small group.
They go to this couple smallgroup with another friend that
was leading it, and she was theone that was telling me all
about it.
Turns out they end up.
Marrying each other.
She becomes a Christian.
(39:19):
Mm-hmm.
They end up marrying each other.
They want to get married rightafter service on a Sunday.
So all of her shipper friendscome and they're whole guard.
But what I loved about that wasclearly she never felt judged.
Yeah.
In that setting.
That's awesome.
So that is like, and I justthought about that.
(39:41):
That speaks volumes not to the.
Church itself, the people in thechurch, the community.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
The way we were, uh, focusing onChrist and what we can control
and what we are responsible for.
And so when those kind of thingscome through the door, we've
(40:01):
already dealt with that.
It's not our problem.
So yes.
That's great.
That's an awesome story.
Yeah, it's a great story.
Yeah.
And they are still together,honey.
This has been like nice.
11, 12 years ago.
Huh.
Wow.
Yeah.
That's, in my opinion, that'sChristians doing.
Yes.
That was us doing as chargedwith being the hands and feet of
(40:22):
Jesus.
Yeah.
And just absolutely loving herand accepting her.
Nobody went out and took hershopping.
It was a gradual thing that youdo.
They gotta know how much youcare before they care how much
you know.
Mm-hmm.
So it's, it was just a reallycool thing I, and I'm grateful
that I got to see something likethat in my lifetime.
(40:45):
Yeah.
That's cool.
All right, well next, right, aswe get to our closing, I thought
it would be valuable for us tokind of share a belief
statement.
'cause that's the thing I did atthe end of this process of
deconstructing.
And I thought it would be usefulto share with you guys And as we
get to our challenge of theweek, maybe after you have a
reflection on what modesty meansto you and what you believe
(41:07):
going forward, you can writeyour own belief statement as
well.
'cause I really love that and ithelps for me to have to be able
to look back on things and knowthis is why I believe what I
believe, and this is how Iexplained it.
Right, right.
Go ahead.
I want to hear it.
So.
For me, modesty is not about therules, it's about the intention.
So like I've been saying in thepast, dressing for the male gaze
(41:30):
and for attention and to feelvalidated when I was insecure by
showing a lot of skin did notleave me fulfilled.
Now I dress in a way that makesme feel confident, aligned in my
spiritual beliefs, yet free toexpress myself in ways I want to
without the shame and guilt ofrigid rules and expectations.
As a progressive woman of faith,I think modesty is less about
(41:51):
covering up our skin and showingup with self-respect and
grounded in our value.
I believe we should respectother women's choices about
modesty, whether we agree ornot, because it is a deeply
personal and subjective choiceto make as a woman, and not
everybody is the same asourselves.
Yep.
Mic drop.
Mic drop.
Um, yeah, what you got?
(42:11):
I got this.
Okay.
I wrote it down.
I don't take a whole lot ofnotes, guys, but this one I did.
I was like, she didn't write itdown.
She's just gonna it.
No, I didn't.
I act, I am not winging thispart of our conversation.
Alright.
My belief statement is thatmodesty is a mindset.
(42:32):
It's a core value that promoteshumility, consideration, and a
focus on character over externalappearances.
It encompasses much more thanjust how we dress.
It's about a way of thinking,speaking and acting that
reflects respect for myself andfor others.
(42:53):
Mm-hmm.
So I truly believe that modestyis a mindset, and I think as a
generation, multiplegenerations, if we can continue
to have that in the forefront ofour mind, we will not have to
police what our children wear.
Yeah.
We won't have to.
What do you think younger Ronniewould think about?
(43:13):
What just came outta your mouthright now?
Okay.
Younger Ronnie.
Okay.
Well, I've struggled with a lot,but confidence is not one of
them until about two years agoand I'm over that now, so I feel
she's back.
I am back.
But honestly, Ronnie would say,you know what, idiot.
(43:38):
No, I'm just kidding.
I'm gonna tell you what young,I'm gonna tell you what older
Ronnie would say to youngerRonnie.
Can I say that or no?
It's gotta be what would beyounger.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I think older Ronnie would sayto younger Ronnie, you did the
best you could with what you hadand when you knew better.
You did better.
So good job.
Mm-hmm.
Made that the truth.
Yeah.
(43:59):
Yay.
I think that, Cana now would saythe same thing to younger Cana.
Absolutely.
And I also think that if I readlike younger Cana would say, I
think she would be proud of me,honestly.
Oh yes.
Younger caner would be so proud.
And I do have to say that, andI've already told Cana this, I
(44:22):
have never.
She has never made me feeluncomfortable with the way she
dresses in front of me, in frontof Jim.
And, you know, and, and this isa, this is somebody who, like
you lived with us before youwere married and even while you
were married.
(44:42):
So I just wanna say to you, Iappreciate that.
Did she wear things or does shewear things that I don't wear?
Absolutely.
But again, if you are havingmajor issues with somebody being
immodest, check yourself andcheck your relationship.
(45:06):
Ain't that the truth?
Yeah.
Cool.
Cool.
Okay.
Go to therapy probably.
Yes.
Yes.
So let's look at what she said.
Cana, tell us about what shesaid today, what she was saying.
Okay.
This quote, what you wear shouldbe a reflection of who you are,
not who the world tells you tobe.
Love that.
And this is from Nadia BullsWeber, a progressive Lutheran
(45:27):
pastor.
So good.
So good.
Mm-hmm.
Like we had said earlier, wewould challenge you to write out
a belief expectation that youhave, or belief statement that
you have now.
Mm-hmm.
Especially if you have youngerkids and it's not time to talk
about that, or if you're just.
Write it down, it's gonna changeit's fluid, but have something,
(45:50):
like you said, Cana, like somekind of foundation that is
solid.
And then there's other, soother, the storms come.
Yes.
The crises come or the conflictscome, or your kids start asking
you questions about X, Y, and Z.
Or your daughter's body startschanging.
Yes.
You know?
Yes.
What you believe and how todiscuss it with her.
Yes.
So, yeah.
Yes.
Reflect on what it means to younow, not what you were taught,
(46:13):
not what your community expects.
Yes.
What does it mean to you?
Yeah.
The keyword we right now.
Yes, yes, yes.
Alright, well we thank you somuch as always.
Please.
Um.
Like us, follow us on ourdifferent platforms.
Uh mm-hmm.
Thank you so much for yourfeedback.
We love getting your messages,so keep that up.
(46:35):
And that's it for today and theway we end every show.
And that's, that's the tea.
The tea.
Thank you guys for joining us onthis enlightening discussion.
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