July 23, 2025 • 62 mins
On this exciting edition of the Ground Transportation Podcast host, Ken Lucci, digs into the future of the chauffeur transportation industry with special guest Leonardo from Magis. They discuss the transformative power of AI and autonomous vehicles, addressing the challenges and opportunities these innovations bring. Learn about the importance of embracing new technologies, potential roadblocks, and the need for the industry to evolve.
00:00 Intro + Welcome
04:24 Why Magis Came to the USA
06:57 Tech Monopolies and the Future
10:21 Parallels with the Electronic Security Industry
12:50 Not in the Business of Innovation, and Automation Growth
27:53 Pony AI
29:36 May Mobility
31:47 The Future of AV s
37:15 Parallels between Movie Studios and AVs
47:33 The Real Cost of Rideshare
55:18 What's in store for the Future
Connect with Leonardo: https://leonardo-gannio.com
Leonardo's book:
https://www.amazon.com/Mobility-3-0-Thrive-Passenger-Transportation/dp/B0DSKBBLSS
Article mentioned:
https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.33.2.3
At Driving Transactions, Ken Lucci and his team offer financial analysis, KPI reviews, for specific purposes like improving profitability, enhancing the value of the enterprise business planning and buying and selling companies. So if you have any of those needs, please give us a call or check us out at www.drivingtransactions.com.
Pax Training is your all in one solution designed to elevate your team's skills, boost passenger satisfaction, and keep your business ahead of the curve. Learn more at www.paxtraining.com/gtp
Connect with Kenneth Lucci, Principle Analyst at Driving Transactions:
https://www.drivingtransactions.com/
Connect with James Blain, President at PAX Training:
https://paxtraining.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ken Lucci (00:25):
good afternoon all and welcome to another exciting
edition of the GroundTransportation Podcast.
I'm a little sad today that mypartner in crime, James Blaine,
from PS training is not with ustoday.
he's out training a chauffeurcrew, I'm sure, somewhere in the
country and y but I am very,very pleased to have a good
(00:47):
friend of mine, Leonardo anofrom Mag's, uh, a little bit of
just history.
He and I met back in 2018, 1819timeframe, out in Las Vegas.
Leo is the, I'm gonna let himtell you about his company, but
he is a magnificent entrepreneurand came to the United States
(01:10):
with a fantastic software forthe chauffeur transportation
industry.
But Leo, tell us about yourbackground and then we'll talk
about Magis a little bit.
Leonardo Gannio (01:20):
Well, Ken thank you So much for having me, and
it is a pleasure to, to sharewith you.
my insights and, uh, thank you.
Thank you again for thisopportunity.
Well, uh, I have been in the, inthe technology industry for the
last 35 years, uh, working withfor different worldwide
companies in technology as bypresident of Latin America.
(01:42):
And then in 2000, I decided tostart my entrepreneur career.
my last endeavor was active.
That was a$500 million companythat was sold, to, uh, an
American company that is callingMicro.
And I decided to move to TheStates and start my new
endeavors and, uh, living here.
uh, I started in 2018, this ideaof building mags, uh, mags is an
(02:08):
end-to-end software platform.
For, uh, people, transportationproviders with, uh, an open
marketplace.
we define ourself as the Shopifyfor transportation providers.
Uh, we have a passion to empowerbusiness owners.
Why we believe this, because ourphilosophy is that we empower
(02:29):
business owners.
They have a positive impact intheir communities and their
workforce because they paybetter, better salaries.
And opposite to the gig economythat we think that is
empowering, the people that workin that gig economy caught on.
Ken Lucci (02:45):
So you.
The other thing that we, we doshare a lot in common, other
than the fact that you've liveda great life in, outside the
United States, but you wrote anunbelievable book, mobility 3.0,
which we're gonna talk about.
And to me, I have to tell you,I, I left the book basically
saying, with absolutely moreadmiration for you, not just as
(03:08):
a software and tech guy, butalmost a futurist, almost the
understanding of where you thinkthe industry is going to me as
bulletproof.
So do me a favor, give us alittle bit of a background of
where your biggest deploymentfor Maje is.
Where?
Leonardo Gannio (03:28):
First I want to say something, but I was
inspired by your book in 2019,and what I discovered at that
time is that was crucial for ourindustry to, give or to put all
of our beliefs, all our,knowledge in a book because this
(03:50):
is the best way for ourindustry.
To spread out the news, tospread out our voice because,
you know, you go topresentations, you go to
different places, but sometimesthey forget what we say.
But it's good to say todaybecause after we will tell them,
we told you and we give you theguidelines for the future as you
(04:11):
did in your book.
I think that is a continuationof your book.
And thanks you, uh, I decided towrite this book.
Then back to your question, ofcourse our biggest deployment
are in different countries inLatin America.
And, uh, uh, we decided, twoyears ago, or one year and a
half ago, to fully launch anddeploy it in the United States.
(04:33):
why Magi entered the us, becausewe believe that this market, uh,
represent the most mature.
Complex and opportunity reachlandscape for mobility
innovation.
Ken Lucci (04:46):
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (04:47):
the US has, long been a global benchmark in
terms of scale, infrastructureand diversity of transportation
needs.
But.
ironically, still struggles withfragmented, inefficient, and
legacy bound technologyinfrastructure, especially for
delivery providers trying tothrive in the new digital
(05:10):
economy.
And, and that is very importantbecause sometimes I, I'm, I am
asked, uh, what type of issuesare the Latin American market,
facing compared to UnitedStates?
And I answer always the same,the same issues.
The landscape is totallydifferent, but the issues are.
(05:31):
They're the same issues nomatter where you go, you go to
Europe, you go to Latin America,and the same issues are, uh,
facing, uh, are the companiesfacing in this new digital
economy we saw?
Yeah,
Ken Lucci (05:45):
So what are your, what are the biggest challenges
that you see that are similarfrom an operator to operator
perspective in the US and LatinAmerica?
Leonardo Gannio (05:56):
Uh, the very first one is, try to enhance
their customer engagement.
Some of them are waiting, themagic of receiving reservations
requests, and that does, it'snot happening, you know, it's
not gonna happen organically.
The second thing is.
(06:18):
Streamlining their back office,automating their back office
with policies.
Some of them that they're reallybig in the states, they only
have one or two price lists andthey price the rights, basically
with the face of the customer orthey out of the blue, they, they
put the prices.
They don't have a pricingstrategy and because they don't
(06:38):
have the technology to supportthat.
And the third thing, is thateven though they have a big
company, sometimes they haveservice denial because they
don't have enough assets or theydon't have the enough,
relationships into the market toprovide services to their
passengers.
Ken Lucci (06:57):
Gotcha so just generally, because you've been
in tech in other industries, whydo you think the traditional
limo tech has not advanced towhat we see on the
transportation network side?
On the Uber side?
(07:17):
Why has the limo tech notevolved in capacity utilization
tracking and just the userexperience, the front end user
experience.
Why hasn't it, in your mind.
Leonardo Gannio (07:34):
Well, the first phrase that comes to my head,
and that is why I started thiscompany, is that the limo tech
monopoly is creeping the futureof our industry.
That's it.
That's it.
When I hear a provider saying,I've used the same software, the
same, uh, for the last 20 years,I said, okay.
20 years ago we didn't have aniPhone.
(07:55):
We didn't have, uh, a lot oftechnology that now is
available.
Uh, we didn't have Uber.
Let me tell you, Uber was made.
A$44 billion company was made bytwo kids, traveling through
France then
Ken Lucci (08:08):
With no transportation experience.
Leonardo Gannio (08:10):
And experience.
is not more an asset.
It's an asset, but it's not morea distinctive asset in the
market.
Ken Lucci (08:17):
You know, you hit upon something there that I
struggle with, which issometimes actually the
experience that you have is yourbiggest hindrance because you're
comfortable, you're complacent.
And this is a phrase that I'veused.
Recently in front of some prettydamn successful operators, where
(08:39):
I say I would rather deal withoperators who are not profitable
because they listen more.
The profitable operators.
I fight comfort, complacency,and what I call omnisci
thinking, thinking thateverything about their business
tomorrow is gonna be the same asit was today, or worse
(09:01):
yesterday.
I think a lot of people arecaught in yesterday, and I, I, I
think the same thing on thesoftware side.
Excuse me, the traditionalsoftware side of the industry.
Leonardo Gannio (09:13):
let me give you, uh, I have cases that I
can, I can tell you now, butlet's be honest.
the traditional limo intechnology providers in the us.
Have became a monopoly, and thatmonopoly is actively choking
innovation in delivery industry.
Ken Lucci (09:30):
Yeah, but isn't that the case in any technology
monopoly in any industry?
Like the hotel booking industryfor a long time had a monopoly
until the online travel comagencies came on.
So how do you break it?
Leonardo Gannio (09:47):
Well, it, it's very easy to change the
narrative and start to show thesuccess cases.
Uh, they are narrative is thatsuccess come from first margin,
second revenue grow, and thirdautomation in that order.
However, that is half a truebecause, craft, crafted to buy
(10:07):
time while they lock in customerwith existing, uh, exit with
high exit barriers.
And that is a fact.
They charge inflate fees andcontinue toole technology that
be.
Ken Lucci (10:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
we saw that we, I saw the samething when I was in the
electronic security business,and I won't bore you with the
tremendous details, but acompany called alarm.com came
into the industry.
they were from outside thebusiness and before they came
in, they were these littlesoftware providers that all sold
(10:41):
not only their software, but themonitoring center receiving
equipment, and they never talkedto each other.
So then the alarm.com came inand said, look, I'm gonna make
it so that they all talk to eachother, and I'm gonna create an
app for the user experience sothat they won't have to use your
keypads anymore.
(11:02):
So in the alarm business, thekeypad was the same thing as we
see in the, in this space as thedependence on telephone.
So now I can have a, securitysystem through alarm.com.
With no devices in my house,this is what I deal with.
And I, I struggle because frommy perspective, and you don't
have to say it, I'll say it, thetechnology in our, in our space,
(11:26):
the user interface, whether it'sa corporate dashboard or an
online ordering portal or thesmartphone is in best case, very
clunky.
It's very clunky.
we get we can't track thevehicle the way as it approaches
on the app.
(11:47):
We have to get text messages.
It varies from place to place intown to town and provider to a
pro provider.
And it is very frustrating.
And I think my biggest issue isI hear operators say, and you
must also, well people, youknow, people like to call us on
the phone or they like to sendus emails and.
(12:10):
I think, I don't think theyrealize corporate clients who do
that, they're retiring andthey're being replaced with
corporate travel people who dowanna do everything remotely and
everything on their phone.
And the same with the corporatetravelers who are the, the
average traveler is, right now,the average corporate traveler
(12:33):
is 42 years old.
So they're, they're relativekids and they want to do
everything on their own.
So wh where do you see the, Imean, where do you see the next
two to three years?
And do you see us taking anygiant leaps forward?
Or is it gonna be status quo?
Leonardo Gannio (12:50):
Okay, let me first say something that is very
important.
Uh, uh, continue your, yourcomments.
The tech limo Today, thesecompanies are not in the
business of innovation.
First,
Ken Lucci (13:03):
They are not, say that again?
The limo tech
Leonardo Gannio (13:06):
not the business of innovation.
They are in the business of rentseeking.
That's it.
Okay.
Meanwhile, and this is veryimportant because these are the
things that are, struggling.
The, the market, meanwhile, theworld around them is changing
fast.
Ken Lucci (13:24):
God forbid it's changing.
Oh God, yes.
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (13:28):
delivery sector is growing, but fuel by younger
generation generations optingout of car ownership and new
expectations shaped by TNCs.
But this is just the beginning.
You know, we are now entering atransform transformational era
era driven by the conversconvergence of electric
(13:51):
vehicles, ai, autonomoustechnologies, EOLs and hyper
personalized service.
and the formula is not anymorethe old formula.
This is an not an evolution,it's a revolution.
And the only limo tech stack cankeep up.
Then the real formula forsuccess today isn't just margin
(14:15):
revenue and automation.
It's revenue margin growth, bothvertically and horizontally
enabled by automation.
That is The, key.
They need to understand thatthey're going with new
technology.
They can go to newopportunities, they can automate
their business and they cancompete in the new digital
(14:35):
world.
And this is a fact, a lot ofcompanies are raising, uh, are
appearing in the market Alto, anew TNC, very high class, uh,
Olo, uh, Roso, sorry many ofthem freebie in Florida, and
they are expanding theiroperations to Dallas then that
is a fact.
And we need to open the eyesbecause who are the best
(14:59):
position, providers in themarket?
to achieve success, ourindustry, delivery industry, but
they need to open up theirstrategy.
Ken Lucci (15:10):
Yeah, I, I, uh, 100% agree and I think that, again,
fighting what has always beennot fighting, but moving past
the same old, same old tech andthe same old, same old voices is
difficult.
There's a new owner to one ofthe biggest networks in the
country.
We're not gonna give'em a freeplug here, but, we've had some
(15:32):
very good interaction with themand.
This network is, uh, poised tomake some big technology
changes.
They understand completely thatthe service experience is
superior in the back of the car,but the technology, the cost,
(15:53):
excuse me, the man, theprocesses are manual and the
cost to take a reservation andmanage a transaction is largely
much higher because of the laborinvolved.
So would you agree with thestatement that the next three
years we're gonna see becauseof, autonomous vehicles and
(16:14):
because of outside forces cominginto the industry, that we're
gonna be, we're gonna be forcedto make changes or we're gonna
be left in the dust?
Leonardo Gannio (16:24):
I totally agree.
let me bring up, an example thatmaybe you are aware of it, you
remember Blackberry?
Ken Lucci (16:34):
Sure.
Leonardo Gannio (16:35):
Okay.
Blackberry was, I think, thedominant provider until 2007,
dominant.
When I'm talking about dominant,90% of the market share was from
for, from Bradberry
Ken Lucci (16:49):
Yep,
Leonardo Gannio (16:51):
until the iPhone appeared.
And you remember when the iPhoneappeared?
They said, no, nobody's going toto accept a touchscreen, uh uh,
keyboard or nobody's going touse it.
End of the story, 2009, twoyears after started the decline
of Blackberry and theydisappeared.
(17:12):
Then.
It's very important tounderstand that we are in a
pivotal moment, and decisionsmight be made now because in the
next three years, most of themare going to disappear.
Ken Lucci (17:25):
And you know, the rules of business, progression
growth and decline are notsuspended in the limousine
industry.
To amplify your point, growingup as a kid, Kodak was one of
the biggest corporations in theUnited States, United, they made
film.
the first digital camera wasdesigned by an engineer inside
(17:45):
Kodak, and the leadership atKodak said, now it's never gonna
take off.
Oh, by the way, we don't wantyou showing that anywhere.
And within four years, digitalcameras were the norm, and Kodak
was sold for pennies on thedollar.
you know, there is definitely,from a standpoint of the
evolution of business.
(18:07):
We need to really examine as anindustry where we are or we're
gonna be left behind.
I always say this to people, youknow, there are still some
fantastic companies that makehorse-drawn carriages and stage
coaches.
There's just not a lot of'em.
So I agree a thousand percentwith you and I, I myself, am
(18:29):
frustrated by the lack ofevolution and, you know, there's
voices that in the industry thatsay it's too expensive to create
a universal app.
Quite frankly, like an Uber,quite frankly, you've done it.
I mean, your, your software,your, your user experience is
pretty damn close.
Leonardo Gannio (18:49):
yeah, but again, first, the platform is
right here.
Second, We need to evolve as anysoftware company.
And third, the providers need tounderstand that they are going
to change the way they're doingbusiness.
Then when I sit down with aprovider and he says, I don't
have time to establish thepolicies for my company.
(19:11):
I say, you don't have a company.
You have a fleet of cars and youare a driver that you became a
business owner.
Then sooner or later you aregoing to you or you are losing
money, or you're going to getoutside of the market and you
are going to close your doors,and that is happening.
They'll blame economy.
They'll blame the market, thecompetition, they will blame.
(19:33):
The first thing that they willblame is that Uber is cheaper.
That is wrong.
That is wrong.
Ken Lucci (19:39):
No.
Leonardo Gannio (19:40):
not cheaper.
Ken Lucci (19:41):
By the way, this is statistic out that 30% of the
TNC users.
Do not even look at what theirtotal payment was.
They don't even look at it.
It's a total convenience playfor them, and it has just become
(20:01):
part of their lifestyle thatthey're going to spend Exxon,
Uber.
But I agree with you.
When we consistently for clientslook at, a similar service, Uber
Black from 25 miles outside anairport in the suburbs, it's
pretty damn close.
(20:22):
And the thing with our industryis we all know we have fixed
prices.
We don't have surge prices.
So I think that that's a copout.
And, in many cases, I, I, I'vesaid to operators, you know, the
problem is not the market.
It's your mindset.
Okay.
Client said to me the other day,not the other day, about three
(20:43):
months ago, I said, yourbusiness is not growing.
you grow by, you grew by 3%, butyour costs are going, growing so
much higher that you're losingground on profitability.
And I said, 3% is not growth.
he's in in Hartford,Connecticut, I'm not gonna
identify him.
And he said, well, you know,Hartford is terrible.
(21:05):
it's not the market that it usedto be.
You know, and I, I hated to tellhim that we've done business
with two or three otherproviders that serve that same
area and they're growing.
And in this case it was 100% hisand his strategy.
Not his market, no outreach tonew prospects, really no
(21:25):
communication in your words, noreal innovation of any kind.
His clients have se it seems assta a stagnant enterprise.
So let's shift gears a minutebecause, you know, in your book,
this is not a book about limosoftware.
This is a book about theevolution of mobility and you
(21:46):
hit upon quite a few things, butI wanna focus because of what's
been in the news recently on thejust hurried deployment of robo
taxis.
So there's a ton of talk aboutautonomous.
When do you think thatautonomous vehicles meaning will
(22:08):
become mainstream?
Meaning we're gonna see'em onhighways?
And they're gonna be in servicein major US cities.
When are they gonna go from anovelty to normal?
In your mind?
What's the timeframe?
Leonardo Gannio (22:22):
Well, the timeframe?
will be between three to fiveyears.
But let me, let me base thisaffirmation.
one month ago, Sean Dfi Duffy,that is the Secretary of
Transportation, the FederalSecretary of deportation, he
released a framework for abs.
You know, that as in America,when the framework is put into
(22:46):
the market, all the forces alignitself just to start to produce
this country.
And my country here is like verypowerful in aligning and putting
resources to achieve a goal.
The second thing that is veryimportant is.
Waymo just launched theirservice in San Francisco I saw,
(23:08):
that you use Waymo in SanFrancisco and they achieve 27%
of the market share.
Only in 20 months.
Only in 20 months.
And let's be honest, becauseevery everyone says no, but
they're a taxi service.
I don't think that a Jaguar IPace is an entry-level car.
Ken Lucci (23:28):
Oh, uh, I, you know what's funny?
You tell me if I'm wrong, iftheir fleet was black, the li
the limo industry would beshitting its pants.
Oh, by the, by the way, I justwanna let you know I'm allowed
to swear he bleeps it out.
But we are on a podcast and weare somewhat not ruled by the
FCC, but I agree with you.
(23:49):
I've been in the back of afriend of mine's Jaguar, SUV.
It's ex, you know, just aprivate vehicle and it was black
with the same tan interior andit, you had the sa you had a
completely different experience,but they're all white, you are,
right.
And those, those jags, if youand I went out to buy one,
(24:10):
they're about 120,$130,000vehicle, aren't they?
Leonardo Gannio (24:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
They, I, I don't know aroundwhat, uh, what is the amount,
but they, they have the, thepower of aggregation.
They're buying cheap.
You know, let me, if you give metwo minutes, I will explain the,
because it's very important to,to explain our industry what is
going on.
I think that we are, uh, on theverge of a major transformation,
and as I told you, I believethat autonomous vehicles and
(24:36):
road taxes.
Will being going mainstream withthe next three to five years,
and we'll start seeking themacross Mayor US cities first in
meaningful numbers.
not just pilots, not just pilotmeaningful numbers, but as a
real transportation option.
what companies are leading thisdrug.
(24:57):
Companies like Waymo, mayMobility, so are already making
exciting progresses.
why they're progressing and whythis is working like this.
Autonomous vehicles, they workin a platform.
No matter what car manufactureris that is, uh, what we call
drive by wire.
(25:17):
That means that you cannotretrofit a normal car.
You need to have them from thefactory where the driver is a
truck driver like Tesla, whereyou hit the wheel driver.
But some cables are giving thesignal to, to go right or left.
The same for the accelerator thebrakes and everything.
(25:37):
Then there comes the technologyof the, what we call the
interceptors, the ones that pushthose, devices to move.
And then you have the brains andthe, all the radars and cameras.
today, all the cars are approvedto, to have a, a speed of 35
miles per hour, and they cannotget into a highway without the
(26:01):
driver.
Why?
Because the lidar technology andthe camera technology, you know,
the only that uses cameratechnology is Tesla.
All the rest are using Lidar.
that is safer than cameras.
Okay?
they are prepared for 35 milesper hour as maximum speed.
If you increase the speed, youincrease the cost of the cars.
(26:23):
But this is a matter of time.
They're going to reduce the costof that technology in the follow
three to five years.
Then with the framework, withthe technology, with the car
manufacturer, that they're goingto produce their drive-by work
cars as a single platform, wherewe see a lot of that, technology
coming in the following three tofive years.
(26:45):
And lemme give you a littletaste.
You know the name Gene Farley.
He's the CEO of Ford Motors in
Ken Lucci (26:54):
Oh yeah.
I saw his Yes.
Go.
I know what, go ahead.
I know what you're
Leonardo Gannio (26:58):
You, you know what car he drives?
Ken Lucci (27:01):
No.
What is he drive?
Leonardo Gannio (27:03):
Shomi.
SU seven is a Chinese car.
Shomi is the work biggestmanufacturer of, mobile phones.
They also manufacture, vacuumcleaners, robot vacuum cleaners.
And then they're producing carstoday because the technology is,
uh, the AI and all thetechnologies very similar what
(27:25):
we need in a car.
This guy is so happy with thatcar and is pushing all the
factory and all the developersbecause, it is an example.
The CIO is a beautiful car.
Let me tell you this is comingand they know that.
Ken Lucci (27:39):
You know, to your point, I follow, we have a ton
of databases that we get news,financial information, data
analytics, and I follow acompany called Pony ai.
Leonardo Gannio (27:51):
Pony Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
Ken Lucci (27:53):
Pony AI just announced their seventh
generation platform.
to your point, in China, theyare working with two auto
manufacturers to build models.
So evolving quickly in othercountries.
Wuhan China, you know, madefamous because of the COVID
(28:16):
virus, but Wuhan China, has30,000 avs on the road.
And someone was telling me theother day that they don't even,
they don't have any downtime oncharging because the vehicles go
back to the hub and someonechanges out the power source in
(28:37):
20 minutes and the vehicle goesback on the road.
Leonardo Gannio (28:41):
that is called Swappable battery technology.
Ken Lucci (28:44):
Say that again.
Leonardo Gannio (28:45):
Swappable battery technology.
You swap the battery.
Ken Lucci (28:49):
And think about that.
We don't have anything close tothat yet.
And at the end of the day, Ithink that you are right on the
three to five years we'refollowing.
In other cases, we are followingshuttle vans that are being
built in Korea.
They're being deployed right nowin Singapore.
(29:10):
They're being deployed in Dubai,and right now they're piloting
them in closed areas likecolleges and universities.
When I started looking into it,I see that the University of
Michigan's doing it, theUniversity of Mississippi is
doing it.
So I think you're on the moneythat it's gonna become more, a
(29:31):
lot more mainstream, muchquicker than we, that we
thought.
Leonardo Gannio (29:36):
Let me give you some insights.
You know that we partner withmain mobility.
Our platform is able to dispatchautonomous cars.
Main mobility has made anagreement with techno.
Bass is an Italian company tothe techno buses are those small
buses that they use in Europethat are more or less 40 people,
(30:00):
30 to 40 people.
That bus has swappable batterytechnology and they're going to
release that in the us uh, Ithink that end of 2026.
Then.
We will have them here as wespeak because different of what
the provider thinks.
The provider says, okay, I willlose the car business, but I, I
(30:22):
am gonna go to the coachbusiness.
No, no.
The coach business is gettingfaster to the autonomous side
than the cars.
Ken Lucci (30:30):
And when we, uh, one of the databases we use is, uh,
Dow Jones Factiva.
And when, when they were settingit up for us and,'cause I'm a
neophyte, they said, Ken, don'tlook at tech.
Just look at tech in the UnitedStates.
Look at it worldwide.
And this is how you get techinformation from all over the
(30:50):
country, all over the world.
And I was a little skepticaluntil I saw these continuous
names coming up from all overthe world.
and you're absolutely right.
Germany is big in it, Italy'sbig in it.
the Asia Pacific is justabsolutely incredible.
On, AVS and China is way aheadof us.
(31:12):
why do you think, China is wayahead of us?
Do you, think we'll catch up tothat tech?
When do you think we'll see,30,000 vehicles sit in Wuhan,
which I think Wuhan is probably,I have to look at the
population, but it's a verylarge city.
When do you think we'll see30,000 avs on the road?
Leonardo Gannio (31:31):
First I, I would say That China is not a
democracy.
Then they have the ability tofunnel resources by force, or
more than convincing.
But,
Ken Lucci (31:43):
That, that's a nice way to put it.
Funneling resources by force.
Leonardo Gannio (31:47):
Yeah.
And that is the way, and it is,it is been, it's been very
effective to be honest, but saidthat we are very good at
catching up.
Let, let, let me give you anexample.
Do you remember three years agothat Elam said we need to start
to work on AI only three yearsago because the Chinese were way
(32:10):
ahead?
Now AI is all over the UnitedStates.
We have several providers,several supervisors, then with
this framework of the federalgovernment.
And with this guideline, allthe, the resources are going to
be funnel a lot of, money andresources to do this.
Let me give you an example.
(32:30):
The other day I was talking to avery big provider and, um, he
told me no, you know, here inBoston is gonna be difficult.
To have autonomous vehiclesbecause the traffic is terrible.
Boom.
One week after Waymo announcedto, uh, the, the release in New
York, and I call him and said,New York is worse than Boston.
(32:52):
Boston is worse than New York.
Then we need to start to thinkin the future and start to take
out our mental barriers abouttechnology.
Imagine, you know, but I'm veryhappy, uh, I'm very positive.
In 2019, I was talking aboutautonomous vehicle and the
people were saying, Hey, whatyou smoking?
(33:13):
Then, but today what I see isthat there, there are many
opportunities because we see alot of providers that they're
very good business owners andthey're willing to grow.
Then, uh, I'm very positiveabout the future and let's be
very, direct on that as well.
There are many youngentrepreneurs that, with the
(33:34):
Right?
technology.
They will grow because theydon't need to deal with, uh,
drivers.
They will not need to deal witha lot of things.
And they will be the nextgeneration for our industry
where they will have RS insteadof drivers inside the cars.
Because you cannot eliminate,the, the drivers.
You, you'll have hybrid fleets.
(33:55):
You know, if you have anautonomous Rolls Royce in the
future, you're not going to senda car.
You're going to send a personthat will help the people with
luggage, help the people withother things.
But again, it will be hybrid andthey will be, as I told in the
hospitality business, not in thetransportation business.
Ken Lucci (34:13):
You know it.
So what I hear you saying,because first of all, I, I,
every single day I fight thesame sentiment that you heard
from that Boston operator, whichagain, the definition is
omniscient thinking.
You are assuming that tomorrowin business is going to be
(34:34):
exactly like today andyesterday, and there's just no
way.
In this era that we're in, inthis tech advanced era, that's
valid, right?
So tech is gonna move forward.
It's gonna move forward with orwithout us.
I love this, this story aboutwhen automobiles first came into
(34:55):
existence, there were 3,200automobile makers in the first
five years.
And then over time it came downto, in the United States, the
big three.
So do you agree with thisstatement that AVS are going to
be perceived as a negative?
(35:15):
Auto autonomous vehicles aregonna be perceived as a negative
disruptor in the beginning, inthe chauffeur space.
But for those that embrace thefuture there's opportunity here
for them.
Leonardo Gannio (35:30):
let me, uh, I believe that autonomous vehicles
will ultimately evolve into apowerful opportunity for our
industry.
But, uh, like any technologyshift, the transition will be
disrupted at first, and Irecommend a lecture, you know,
a, a reading of a publication ofa novel ate Darren and Repo.
(35:54):
They have a paper that is calledAutomation and New Tasks.
This paper
Ken Lucci (36:00):
AU automation
Leonardo Gannio (36:01):
automation and, new tasks from Repo and Asog,
they are no prices.
you know, they're not LeonardoGao and Ken, they are PhD, you
know, they, they are big guys,recognize worldwide.
and we understand that thetechnology doesn't just
eliminate jobs.
It also creates new roles,business models and source of
(36:24):
value.
The net effort depends onwhether the economy and
stakeholders can adapt quicklyenough to unlock those new
opportunities.
And let me give you one,
Ken Lucci (36:36):
I want you to repeat, I want you to repeat that last
sentence.
It all depends on the adoptionof who
Leonardo Gannio (36:45):
The providers they need to adopt new
technologies.
And they need to adopt not only.
New roles, new business modelsand new sources of value.
Because the net effect dependson where the economy and
stakeholders can adapt quickly.
They need to adapt very quicklyto unlock these new
opportunities.
Let me give you an example, doyou have thought in 2018 when we
(37:10):
met that you were going to to bea horse in a podcast?
Ken Lucci (37:15):
No.
Leonardo Gannio (37:15):
Okay, why?
Let me give you this case.
On the early nineties, therewere six big producers, like MGM
Universal Paramount Plus untilYouTube appear
Ken Lucci (37:31):
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (37:32):
and what happened with YouTube?
They said, no, they are killingall the industry.
No, no, No.
No.
At the very beginning, it was adisruption, and now you have
thousands of thousands ofproducers and creators enable
those old production companies.
They are in the, in this space.
(37:54):
Then we need to understand thatnow is the moment we are in a
pivotal moment of our industry.
We need to talk to the NLA, weneed to talk about this in, in
all the shows.
We need to talk with everysingle provider because they
need to understand that AI ishere and in two years you are
(38:16):
going to be an AI company oryou're going to be in the other
side.
The other side is going to failand disappear.
Ken Lucci (38:22):
Uh, you, you're a hundred percent right.
And I, and I will share with,share this with you, but I can't
say for who.
We, for the first, we'vereceived our first financial
analysis engagement to do a costpro forma on the cost of an AV
vehicle.
Okay.
Which this is a, a, alongstanding customer that we've
(38:45):
had who've said, listen, I'vebeen approached with an
opportunity and I want you to doa cost model and fixed cost
variables.
What do I need to charge forrevenue to achieve the margins
that, you know, that we preach?
And I said, I just wanna let youknow this is the first AV that
someone has asked us to do.
(39:05):
His comment was, oh, there'sgonna be many more.
Uh, you know, this is a companythat's on the cutting edge.
The other thing I will sharewith you is I had a conversation
with Chris Weiss, the publisherof Chauffeur Driven, and we are
starting, we're gonna start todo a, a column on AV for him.
And we'll, I, I, I do not underany circumstances, see myself as
(39:30):
ever becoming an expert at it.
But I will tell you that we willtake the data that we curate and
we will compile it on thesecompanies.
Leonardo Gannio (39:41):
I have a dream and my dream is you and me in a
stage in the NLA Las Vegaspresenting the future of the
mobility because I'm a littletired of hearing, you can use
chat GPT to write an email toyour customers.
Hey, you know, uh, you can usethis technology to reduce the
(40:05):
cost of, uh, the car processing.
That is, those are conversationsof the nineties.
Ken Lucci (40:12):
Oh, there's, listen, there's no listen, there's no
question about it, because AI isso daunting and AV is so
daunting and it's changing dailythat I, I think there's a fear.
I think there's an apprehension.
And the other thing I'venoticed, it's funny, this is my
first role as an analyst.
(40:33):
You know, I started the companyin 18, we were part-time 18 and
19, and it just took off like arocket ship.
But one of the things I've seenis far as entrepreneurs, two
things.
One is.
They're very reluctant toreceive criticism on the
(40:53):
business or the box that they'vecreated.
They really are in many cases.
The second thing that I've seen,and, and there are exceptions by
the way, there are some who callupon us and say, we've gotten to
a certain point.
We need your help getting usgetting to another level
financially.
The other piece of the puzzle ispeople say they embrace change
(41:16):
but change is not muscle memoryto the average person.
True change, evolutionary changeis scary to a lot of people, but
I think to your point, we areway past the time as an industry
where we can ignore it.
I, I look at it, the, I look atit this way.
(41:37):
Excuse me one second.
Back in before Uber, only.
11% of the country used taxisand it was all in the urban
spaces.
Only 8% of America, the pubpopulation used chauffeur
services and it was allcorporations.
(41:59):
Well, now 60% of the populationhas a TNC app on their phone,
and 40% use one of those TNCsmore than six times a month.
Now they don't use them a littlelot of cases early, early
(42:20):
morning to get to the airport.
You know, they're TNCs are likethe post office, right?
Anytime you need to mail a aletter, you use a T, you use the
post office.
But if you have to get it there,you use Federal Express.
We are federal.
We are the Federal Express withRitz.
We like to think with RitzCarlton luxury, but we're still
operating on.
(42:42):
That's pre Uber, which isfrustrating.
Leonardo Gannio (42:46):
Yeah, but even Federal Express and u uh, UPS,
they need to change and embracethe new tech, the new, uh,
digital technology because nowyou can follow up your parcels.
Before that was unthinkable, andnow you have an app where you
can follow up the parcels or, orwhat you are sending through
them.
But let me tell you somethingthat, that I think that is very
(43:09):
important.
we need to know where to fight,the business model of the TNCs
that they're growing and they'reeating our lunch, again, they
are eating our lunch.
let's not be in denial mode.
They're easy to hire.
They're always available, andthey're easy to pay.
(43:33):
That is the basic businessmodel.
Okay.
Ken Lucci (43:36):
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (43:36):
Then once I was hearing the podcast, because I
am, I'm, I'm, I am a, a followerof the post, and I saw a
provider that he was very proudof having multiple screens, uh,
while dispatching the cards.
And I thought, that is not a,that is not a differentiator
(43:57):
while you are operating yourcompany.
If Elon Musk can send a rocketto the Space Station with only
one screen
Ken Lucci (44:05):
And catch it.
Leonardo Gannio (44:07):
And
Ken Lucci (44:07):
it.
Leonardo Gannio (44:08):
why this person is so happy to have six screens,
while with mags our technology,he can have one screen only and
relaying our AI technology.
And I call him, I think that hereacted with your ear.
He, he was not thinking, andagain, I agree with you that his
(44:29):
fear.
It's not that they are arrogant,it's fear.
That's why
Ken Lucci (44:35):
Yeah.
Leonardo Gannio (44:35):
I think that this dream that they have to
explain the future oftechnology, lead by the NLA and
the and the software drivenmagazine will be a breakthrough
in our industry.
Just to leave behind all thatold type of conversation and
discussion and start to discussthis new technology.
Ken Lucci (44:58):
Well, and you, and to your point, you know, you, you
can't just have an article on AIor a session on ai.
It now has to live in everythingthe industry does and look at
and look at what we ask thequestions.
What can we expect?
Similar, similar situation.
(45:19):
When I take a, a chauffeur carto the airport, I call a
company.
We're, I'm in a suburb, veryrural area.
I call a company and I have tocontinually repeat my home
address, the airline I'm goingto and the airport, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera.
What I don't understand is whycan't I, at the very least, the
(45:43):
most rudimentary, why can't Icall a phone number and say,
this is Ken Luci calling from 72 7 6 3 8 3 3 8 8, pick me up at
my house, going to SalisburyAirport, flight number 40 42 21.
Repeat back or te send me a textmessage.
You know, the human, when we dothe, when we do an analysis on
(46:04):
how much it costs to take areservation.
These people, operators areleaving five, 10,$15 on the
table because the process iscompletely manual constantly.
We don't even have the abilityto have our favorites right
recorded.
So if I can order myprescription through CVS without
(46:30):
talking to a human being andgetting a and get a text reply,
why are we so far behind?
Leonardo Gannio (46:37):
Again, we talk about the monopoly.
We talk about the comfort of notchanging.
We talk about, narrative in themarket that is completely wrong.
Then you can do that for yourcompany today.
Maybe not the way you do it, butlet me tell you, you don't need
to rely on, on mags.
(46:58):
You have seven companies, sevencompanies in the United States
with IVR, interactive voicerecognition that they're working
with ai.
You can hire them.
You have the pricing on the weband hook kept that to Mags and
Magis will receive thatreservation as an automatic
reservation.
Then again, we need to tell allthe story.
(47:21):
If you write only a paper and acolumn of abs, they're going to
read and say, okay, we are farfrom there.
Ken Lucci (47:29):
Oh no.
They'll say that's nice, but itdoesn't apply to me.
Leonardo Gannio (47:33):
Yeah.
if you explain all the picturewith all the pieces of the
puzzle it started, it will bestarted to make sense for them.
We need to explain all thepicture, and this is what is
about mobility 3.0, explainingall the picture, telling the
people that if You work forUber, your net gain is$9.
(47:56):
Is not 25 is nine because afteramortization, after social
benefits, after those things,you are not going to replace
your car, but you'll figure outthat five years later,
Ken Lucci (48:09):
Yeah.
Leonardo Gannio (48:10):
in, in the beginning.
Ken Lucci (48:12):
and I did a podcast called The Uber Dream and it was
so edgy that the producer put adisclaimer on it.
Okay, now this is this stuffthis podcast is an outlet for me
because six days a week I'mlooking at financial statements.
My business partner and I arecrunching like little numbers,
(48:35):
and it's, it's taxing right?
The entire reason why we did theUber Dream is because I've just
spoken to too many Uber driversand seen too many Uber drivers
comment on Facebook.
That just what you said, Ithought I was going to make X
(48:56):
and after you deduct all this,I'm not making minimum wage.
You, you hit upon something inyour book about the unintended
consequences of the gig economy.
The gig economy's hidden cost,how it's eroding the American
middle class.
That chapter should, thischapter itself should be sent to
(49:20):
everybody in dc every laborsecretary in every single state.
Okay.
And they should, beyond justreading the chapter, they should
do the math, the Uber driver,the Uber driver that they're
taking from the capitol.
To their condo is not evenmaking minimum wage.
(49:41):
Not only, you said somethingabout the the social safety net
and the social consequences.
Tell me what, what did, whatprompted that chapter in the
book?
Leonardo Gannio (49:53):
Hmm.
Very good question.
I think that in our industry, wehave a say in my, in my bond
camp, uh, country, you know, wehave a lot of soccer.
Uh, we have been, uh, uh, war,uh, championships, and we say
every single, uh, habitat ofthat country is a ma, is a
manager.
(50:13):
They, everyone knows about futo,uh, or soccer, sorry.
Ken Lucci (50:18):
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (50:19):
that in our industry.
Everyone knows how to save theeconomy and how to manage this
business, then I think that wedon't need to wait the
government to do something withUber.
I think that we need to bringtools and empower business
owners to win this digitaleconomy.
(50:42):
And this is the way to increasejobs and to increase, you know,
the, the, the, the power ofaggregation in our industry, and
tell me if I'm wrong, they all,they can, people that want to
sell their businesses, peoplethat they're reducing, people
that are saying, I'm too old andthey're 50 years old, said, too
(51:05):
old for what?
No, no.
You want to quit and you want toget some money from your, your
company.
But again, we need to plant theseed for them to tell them you
have a tool.
You have the market and you havenew opportunities that you need
to grab.
You have campus universitycampuses, you have hospital
(51:26):
campuses, you have governmentcampuses that you are not
delivering that service.
You have cities.
We have been engaging with a lotof municipalities for micro
transit.
Who do you think that are goingto manage those cars, not us,
the providers and are in abetter position with all the
locations to service thosepeoples, our providers, the
(51:48):
National Limo Associationbusiness partners.
Then we have a uniqueopportunity today before they
start to eat our lunch.
But we need to automate with AIand second focus on revenue
growth margin.
That's it.
Ken Lucci (52:05):
Yeah, no, you, you, you're right on the money.
Let me, and let me emphasize,emphasize why the other day,
yesterday I did an update an AVtrend update on at NC called
Grab, and they are huge.
Singapore.
Okay.
Now they just contracted with aKorean auto, uh, AV co auto
(52:30):
autonomous vehicle company.
And they're a full stack fromliterally from the building of
the vehicle to the platform, theAV platform.
Do you know what they're doing?
Grab is doing a pilot program,and they're partnering with the
equivalent of the NationalLimousine Association.
(52:51):
Okay.
They're for the autonomousvehicle pilot.
They're training the drivers tobe safety at attendants inside
the av.
So grab, I said to myself, grabis literally the equivalent of
Uber, okay.
In, in that part of the world,they are parting.
(53:14):
With the National LiveryAssociation over there for this
AV pilot program.
So to me, that's proof positivethat there are opportunities
here.
Now let's just be, let's just berealistic.
There are gonna be a lot ofoperators who are left behind
because they don't embracechange.
(53:35):
They may not have the capital.
Okay.
But at the end of the day, Ithink that the first operators
that are the innovators, and youand I know a couple of them, and
you're working with a couple ofthem and a couple of, they're my
clients as well.
Those innovators may take maytake some bruises and a learning
experience, but that mentalityis going to rule the day, that
(54:01):
mentality of innovation and the,and saying, no, no AVS are
competing with me.
I think that operators need to.
Learn everything they possiblycan.
They need to be involved withtheir local regulators.
They need to understand and getthemselves on the radar of
everybody on autonomous thatthey can.
(54:23):
Because to your point, I mean,Waymo at some point is going to
get sick and tired of buildinghubs around the country, right?
And Tesla doesn't like buildingthose kind of hubs.
They don't even like to buy, youknow, they don't even have
traditional dealerships.
And the same with Zoox, the samewith MA Mobility, and I know
(54:45):
mobility.
You know, one of, one of yourpartners and they are looking,
actively looking for fleetoperators.
So in the last f five minutes,what, what's your final message
to any livery operator orprovider that's listening to us?
By the way, the audience isgrowing.
Uh, John tells me we're doingfantastically well, uh, which is
(55:07):
good'cause this is like a secondjob.
What is your final message tooperators, on the subject of
transformation and innovation?
Leonardo Gannio (55:18):
Well first I will tell them that in the near
future they will be three typeof operators.
One the one that is going toembrace change, and they were
going to be the ones that moveforward, the industry.
The second ones are going to bea service company that will
(55:39):
maintain the autonomous cars ofother operators or other
companies.
And that could be a good job.
You know, they're going to earnmoney, but they're going to be
in the background like expect.
And the third one are the onethat they were going to
disappear.
Ken Lucci (55:55):
Yes.
And I, by the way, we're seeingit and it's not, we're not
seeing it because of AVnecessarily, but there's a quiet
cleansing going on, and it'sprimarily because of fleet
insurance going through the roofthe inability to financially
manage that cost issue.
(56:15):
But as far as I'm concerned,it's the same thing.
We have been talking aboutchanges in commercial fleet
insurance and the hard marketfor the past three years, and
it's.
The operators that are goingoutta business now are the ones
that didn't listen back then.
Okay.
And I know I have friends onthat.
The insurance side researchunderwriter, Steve Freeberg is
(56:38):
one of, just admire the hell outof what he's built, the biggest
private, commercial, uh, agencyin the country.
And he said, Ken, what you'vebeen saying, we've been saying
what you've been saying forthree years.
We've been saying for 30.
Thank you.
Thank you fi People are finallylistening.
But the same's gonna happen withAI and AV the same thing, but,
(56:59):
and I think it's gonna happenfaster.
you are a hundred percent right.
Leonardo Gannio (57:03):
Uh, and, and pricing are going down.
Uh, if you start to talk to theinsurance companies, like
Principal or other companies,they are, they're starting to
change their business modelbecause autonomous cars are zero
accident or free accident.
No.
Then they need to change the waythe business model for
(57:25):
transportation, and they'restarting to analyze insurance in
the person, not the car.
Because the person is subject tothe movement.
They can take a car, they cantake a micro mobility, a
bicycle, they can do a lot ofthings.
And they've started to thinkabout inuring in, in fact, there
is one company, Latin America,that started to insure people
(57:49):
while they're moving from oneside to the other.
Then again, I think that thefuture is bright, Ken, it's
fantastic, but it'll take a lotof work, a lot of enthusiasm and
a lot of openness to start toembrace technology.
Let's move our industry from thedenial to the proactive way of
(58:11):
thinking, and let's partner alltogether because this is coming,
and let me tell you, not inKorea.
Here in the United States, youhave many new companies that
they're not part of the NLA andthey're huge operators and
they're operating with EVs,they're operating with
municipalities, and they'rebuilding new TNCs in the market.
(58:34):
New York, Florida many places.
Ken Lucci (58:38):
Yep.
I agree.
I agree.
So the message today is evolve,or let or get left behind the
message of the today is to,let's, as an industry try to
move the, move our limo techforward, and, uh, perhaps not
listen to the same voices or, orthe same empty promises move
(58:58):
forward.
We're gonna move forward andsucceed with AI and, embrace av,
uh, as it shakes out.
I think it's gonna be anextremely good thing for the
industry because labor is sointensive and difficult to get.
we do a great job managingfleet.
We do a terrific job keeping'emon the road.
So I think that you're right,the future is gonna be bright
(59:19):
for the industry, but it's gonnarequire a An awakening.
Leonardo Gannio (59:24):
And, and and new talent.
New jobs, new talent.
And that is, and to get a newtalent, you need to learn.
Ken Lucci (59:32):
So everybody for those who can't see me on
YouTube.
Go to Amazon and buy Mobility3.0, how to win and Thrive in
the future of Passengertransportation.
Leonardo from jis, thank you somuch for taking the time out to
be on our podcast.
And I will see you, uh, at thechauffeur driven show in Dallas,
(59:55):
I hope in the fall.
If not, we're definitely gonnasee you in the chauffeur driven
NLA show in Las Vegas.
Thank you very much.
Leonardo Gannio (01:00:03):
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to theground transportation podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please remember to subscribe to
the show on apple, Spotify,YouTube, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
For more information about PAXtraining and to contact James,
go to PAX training.com.
(01:00:23):
And for more information aboutdriving transactions and to
contact Ken, Go to drivingtransactions.com.
We'll see you next time on theground transportation podcast.
good afternoon all and welcome to another exciting
edition of the GroundTransportation Podcast.
I'm a little sad today that mypartner in crime, James Blaine,
from PS training is not with ustoday.
he's out training a chauffeurcrew, I'm sure, somewhere in the
country and y but I am very,very pleased to have a good
(00:47):
friend of mine, Leonardo anofrom Mag's, uh, a little bit of
just history.
He and I met back in 2018, 1819timeframe, out in Las Vegas.
Leo is the, I'm gonna let himtell you about his company, but
he is a magnificent entrepreneurand came to the United States
(01:10):
with a fantastic software forthe chauffeur transportation
industry.
But Leo, tell us about yourbackground and then we'll talk
about Magis a little bit.
Leonardo Gannio (01:20):
Well, Ken thank you So much for having me, and
it is a pleasure to, to sharewith you.
my insights and, uh, thank you.
Thank you again for thisopportunity.
Well, uh, I have been in the, inthe technology industry for the
last 35 years, uh, working withfor different worldwide
companies in technology as bypresident of Latin America.
(01:42):
And then in 2000, I decided tostart my entrepreneur career.
my last endeavor was active.
That was a$500 million companythat was sold, to, uh, an
American company that is callingMicro.
And I decided to move to TheStates and start my new
endeavors and, uh, living here.
uh, I started in 2018, this ideaof building mags, uh, mags is an
(02:08):
end-to-end software platform.
For, uh, people, transportationproviders with, uh, an open
marketplace.
we define ourself as the Shopifyfor transportation providers.
Uh, we have a passion to empowerbusiness owners.
Why we believe this, because ourphilosophy is that we empower
(02:29):
business owners.
They have a positive impact intheir communities and their
workforce because they paybetter, better salaries.
And opposite to the gig economythat we think that is
empowering, the people that workin that gig economy caught on.
Ken Lucci (02:45):
So you.
The other thing that we, we doshare a lot in common, other
than the fact that you've liveda great life in, outside the
United States, but you wrote anunbelievable book, mobility 3.0,
which we're gonna talk about.
And to me, I have to tell you,I, I left the book basically
saying, with absolutely moreadmiration for you, not just as
(03:08):
a software and tech guy, butalmost a futurist, almost the
understanding of where you thinkthe industry is going to me as
bulletproof.
So do me a favor, give us alittle bit of a background of
where your biggest deploymentfor Maje is.
Where?
Leonardo Gannio (03:28):
First I want to say something, but I was
inspired by your book in 2019,and what I discovered at that
time is that was crucial for ourindustry to, give or to put all
of our beliefs, all our,knowledge in a book because this
(03:50):
is the best way for ourindustry.
To spread out the news, tospread out our voice because,
you know, you go topresentations, you go to
different places, but sometimesthey forget what we say.
But it's good to say todaybecause after we will tell them,
we told you and we give you theguidelines for the future as you
(04:11):
did in your book.
I think that is a continuationof your book.
And thanks you, uh, I decided towrite this book.
Then back to your question, ofcourse our biggest deployment
are in different countries inLatin America.
And, uh, uh, we decided, twoyears ago, or one year and a
half ago, to fully launch anddeploy it in the United States.
(04:33):
why Magi entered the us, becausewe believe that this market, uh,
represent the most mature.
Complex and opportunity reachlandscape for mobility
innovation.
Ken Lucci (04:46):
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (04:47):
the US has, long been a global benchmark in
terms of scale, infrastructureand diversity of transportation
needs.
But.
ironically, still struggles withfragmented, inefficient, and
legacy bound technologyinfrastructure, especially for
delivery providers trying tothrive in the new digital
(05:10):
economy.
And, and that is very importantbecause sometimes I, I'm, I am
asked, uh, what type of issuesare the Latin American market,
facing compared to UnitedStates?
And I answer always the same,the same issues.
The landscape is totallydifferent, but the issues are.
(05:31):
They're the same issues nomatter where you go, you go to
Europe, you go to Latin America,and the same issues are, uh,
facing, uh, are the companiesfacing in this new digital
economy we saw?
Yeah,
Ken Lucci (05:45):
So what are your, what are the biggest challenges
that you see that are similarfrom an operator to operator
perspective in the US and LatinAmerica?
Leonardo Gannio (05:56):
Uh, the very first one is, try to enhance
their customer engagement.
Some of them are waiting, themagic of receiving reservations
requests, and that does, it'snot happening, you know, it's
not gonna happen organically.
The second thing is.
(06:18):
Streamlining their back office,automating their back office
with policies.
Some of them that they're reallybig in the states, they only
have one or two price lists andthey price the rights, basically
with the face of the customer orthey out of the blue, they, they
put the prices.
They don't have a pricingstrategy and because they don't
(06:38):
have the technology to supportthat.
And the third thing, is thateven though they have a big
company, sometimes they haveservice denial because they
don't have enough assets or theydon't have the enough,
relationships into the market toprovide services to their
passengers.
Ken Lucci (06:57):
Gotcha so just generally, because you've been
in tech in other industries, whydo you think the traditional
limo tech has not advanced towhat we see on the
transportation network side?
On the Uber side?
(07:17):
Why has the limo tech notevolved in capacity utilization
tracking and just the userexperience, the front end user
experience.
Why hasn't it, in your mind.
Leonardo Gannio (07:34):
Well, the first phrase that comes to my head,
and that is why I started thiscompany, is that the limo tech
monopoly is creeping the futureof our industry.
That's it.
That's it.
When I hear a provider saying,I've used the same software, the
same, uh, for the last 20 years,I said, okay.
20 years ago we didn't have aniPhone.
(07:55):
We didn't have, uh, a lot oftechnology that now is
available.
Uh, we didn't have Uber.
Let me tell you, Uber was made.
A$44 billion company was made bytwo kids, traveling through
France then
Ken Lucci (08:08):
With no transportation experience.
Leonardo Gannio (08:10):
And experience.
is not more an asset.
It's an asset, but it's not morea distinctive asset in the
market.
Ken Lucci (08:17):
You know, you hit upon something there that I
struggle with, which issometimes actually the
experience that you have is yourbiggest hindrance because you're
comfortable, you're complacent.
And this is a phrase that I'veused.
Recently in front of some prettydamn successful operators, where
(08:39):
I say I would rather deal withoperators who are not profitable
because they listen more.
The profitable operators.
I fight comfort, complacency,and what I call omnisci
thinking, thinking thateverything about their business
tomorrow is gonna be the same asit was today, or worse
(09:01):
yesterday.
I think a lot of people arecaught in yesterday, and I, I, I
think the same thing on thesoftware side.
Excuse me, the traditionalsoftware side of the industry.
Leonardo Gannio (09:13):
let me give you, uh, I have cases that I
can, I can tell you now, butlet's be honest.
the traditional limo intechnology providers in the us.
Have became a monopoly, and thatmonopoly is actively choking
innovation in delivery industry.
Ken Lucci (09:30):
Yeah, but isn't that the case in any technology
monopoly in any industry?
Like the hotel booking industryfor a long time had a monopoly
until the online travel comagencies came on.
So how do you break it?
Leonardo Gannio (09:47):
Well, it, it's very easy to change the
narrative and start to show thesuccess cases.
Uh, they are narrative is thatsuccess come from first margin,
second revenue grow, and thirdautomation in that order.
However, that is half a truebecause, craft, crafted to buy
(10:07):
time while they lock in customerwith existing, uh, exit with
high exit barriers.
And that is a fact.
They charge inflate fees andcontinue toole technology that
be.
Ken Lucci (10:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
we saw that we, I saw the samething when I was in the
electronic security business,and I won't bore you with the
tremendous details, but acompany called alarm.com came
into the industry.
they were from outside thebusiness and before they came
in, they were these littlesoftware providers that all sold
(10:41):
not only their software, but themonitoring center receiving
equipment, and they never talkedto each other.
So then the alarm.com came inand said, look, I'm gonna make
it so that they all talk to eachother, and I'm gonna create an
app for the user experience sothat they won't have to use your
keypads anymore.
(11:02):
So in the alarm business, thekeypad was the same thing as we
see in the, in this space as thedependence on telephone.
So now I can have a, securitysystem through alarm.com.
With no devices in my house,this is what I deal with.
And I, I struggle because frommy perspective, and you don't
have to say it, I'll say it, thetechnology in our, in our space,
(11:26):
the user interface, whether it'sa corporate dashboard or an
online ordering portal or thesmartphone is in best case, very
clunky.
It's very clunky.
we get we can't track thevehicle the way as it approaches
on the app.
(11:47):
We have to get text messages.
It varies from place to place intown to town and provider to a
pro provider.
And it is very frustrating.
And I think my biggest issue isI hear operators say, and you
must also, well people, youknow, people like to call us on
the phone or they like to sendus emails and.
(12:10):
I think, I don't think theyrealize corporate clients who do
that, they're retiring andthey're being replaced with
corporate travel people who dowanna do everything remotely and
everything on their phone.
And the same with the corporatetravelers who are the, the
average traveler is, right now,the average corporate traveler
(12:33):
is 42 years old.
So they're, they're relativekids and they want to do
everything on their own.
So wh where do you see the, Imean, where do you see the next
two to three years?
And do you see us taking anygiant leaps forward?
Or is it gonna be status quo?
Leonardo Gannio (12:50):
Okay, let me first say something that is very
important.
Uh, uh, continue your, yourcomments.
The tech limo Today, thesecompanies are not in the
business of innovation.
First,
Ken Lucci (13:03):
They are not, say that again?
The limo tech
Leonardo Gannio (13:06):
not the business of innovation.
They are in the business of rentseeking.
That's it.
Okay.
Meanwhile, and this is veryimportant because these are the
things that are, struggling.
The, the market, meanwhile, theworld around them is changing
fast.
Ken Lucci (13:24):
God forbid it's changing.
Oh God, yes.
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (13:28):
delivery sector is growing, but fuel by younger
generation generations optingout of car ownership and new
expectations shaped by TNCs.
But this is just the beginning.
You know, we are now entering atransform transformational era
era driven by the conversconvergence of electric
(13:51):
vehicles, ai, autonomoustechnologies, EOLs and hyper
personalized service.
and the formula is not anymorethe old formula.
This is an not an evolution,it's a revolution.
And the only limo tech stack cankeep up.
Then the real formula forsuccess today isn't just margin
(14:15):
revenue and automation.
It's revenue margin growth, bothvertically and horizontally
enabled by automation.
That is The, key.
They need to understand thatthey're going with new
technology.
They can go to newopportunities, they can automate
their business and they cancompete in the new digital
(14:35):
world.
And this is a fact, a lot ofcompanies are raising, uh, are
appearing in the market Alto, anew TNC, very high class, uh,
Olo, uh, Roso, sorry many ofthem freebie in Florida, and
they are expanding theiroperations to Dallas then that
is a fact.
And we need to open the eyesbecause who are the best
(14:59):
position, providers in themarket?
to achieve success, ourindustry, delivery industry, but
they need to open up theirstrategy.
Ken Lucci (15:10):
Yeah, I, I, uh, 100% agree and I think that, again,
fighting what has always beennot fighting, but moving past
the same old, same old tech andthe same old, same old voices is
difficult.
There's a new owner to one ofthe biggest networks in the
country.
We're not gonna give'em a freeplug here, but, we've had some
(15:32):
very good interaction with themand.
This network is, uh, poised tomake some big technology
changes.
They understand completely thatthe service experience is
superior in the back of the car,but the technology, the cost,
(15:53):
excuse me, the man, theprocesses are manual and the
cost to take a reservation andmanage a transaction is largely
much higher because of the laborinvolved.
So would you agree with thestatement that the next three
years we're gonna see becauseof, autonomous vehicles and
(16:14):
because of outside forces cominginto the industry, that we're
gonna be, we're gonna be forcedto make changes or we're gonna
be left in the dust?
Leonardo Gannio (16:24):
I totally agree.
let me bring up, an example thatmaybe you are aware of it, you
remember Blackberry?
Ken Lucci (16:34):
Sure.
Leonardo Gannio (16:35):
Okay.
Blackberry was, I think, thedominant provider until 2007,
dominant.
When I'm talking about dominant,90% of the market share was from
for, from Bradberry
Ken Lucci (16:49):
Yep,
Leonardo Gannio (16:51):
until the iPhone appeared.
And you remember when the iPhoneappeared?
They said, no, nobody's going toto accept a touchscreen, uh uh,
keyboard or nobody's going touse it.
End of the story, 2009, twoyears after started the decline
of Blackberry and theydisappeared.
(17:12):
Then.
It's very important tounderstand that we are in a
pivotal moment, and decisionsmight be made now because in the
next three years, most of themare going to disappear.
Ken Lucci (17:25):
And you know, the rules of business, progression
growth and decline are notsuspended in the limousine
industry.
To amplify your point, growingup as a kid, Kodak was one of
the biggest corporations in theUnited States, United, they made
film.
the first digital camera wasdesigned by an engineer inside
(17:45):
Kodak, and the leadership atKodak said, now it's never gonna
take off.
Oh, by the way, we don't wantyou showing that anywhere.
And within four years, digitalcameras were the norm, and Kodak
was sold for pennies on thedollar.
you know, there is definitely,from a standpoint of the
evolution of business.
(18:07):
We need to really examine as anindustry where we are or we're
gonna be left behind.
I always say this to people, youknow, there are still some
fantastic companies that makehorse-drawn carriages and stage
coaches.
There's just not a lot of'em.
So I agree a thousand percentwith you and I, I myself, am
(18:29):
frustrated by the lack ofevolution and, you know, there's
voices that in the industry thatsay it's too expensive to create
a universal app.
Quite frankly, like an Uber,quite frankly, you've done it.
I mean, your, your software,your, your user experience is
pretty damn close.
Leonardo Gannio (18:49):
yeah, but again, first, the platform is
right here.
Second, We need to evolve as anysoftware company.
And third, the providers need tounderstand that they are going
to change the way they're doingbusiness.
Then when I sit down with aprovider and he says, I don't
have time to establish thepolicies for my company.
(19:11):
I say, you don't have a company.
You have a fleet of cars and youare a driver that you became a
business owner.
Then sooner or later you aregoing to you or you are losing
money, or you're going to getoutside of the market and you
are going to close your doors,and that is happening.
They'll blame economy.
They'll blame the market, thecompetition, they will blame.
(19:33):
The first thing that they willblame is that Uber is cheaper.
That is wrong.
That is wrong.
Ken Lucci (19:39):
No.
Leonardo Gannio (19:40):
not cheaper.
Ken Lucci (19:41):
By the way, this is statistic out that 30% of the
TNC users.
Do not even look at what theirtotal payment was.
They don't even look at it.
It's a total convenience playfor them, and it has just become
(20:01):
part of their lifestyle thatthey're going to spend Exxon,
Uber.
But I agree with you.
When we consistently for clientslook at, a similar service, Uber
Black from 25 miles outside anairport in the suburbs, it's
pretty damn close.
(20:22):
And the thing with our industryis we all know we have fixed
prices.
We don't have surge prices.
So I think that that's a copout.
And, in many cases, I, I, I'vesaid to operators, you know, the
problem is not the market.
It's your mindset.
Okay.
Client said to me the other day,not the other day, about three
(20:43):
months ago, I said, yourbusiness is not growing.
you grow by, you grew by 3%, butyour costs are going, growing so
much higher that you're losingground on profitability.
And I said, 3% is not growth.
he's in in Hartford,Connecticut, I'm not gonna
identify him.
And he said, well, you know,Hartford is terrible.
(21:05):
it's not the market that it usedto be.
You know, and I, I hated to tellhim that we've done business
with two or three otherproviders that serve that same
area and they're growing.
And in this case it was 100% hisand his strategy.
Not his market, no outreach tonew prospects, really no
(21:25):
communication in your words, noreal innovation of any kind.
His clients have se it seems assta a stagnant enterprise.
So let's shift gears a minutebecause, you know, in your book,
this is not a book about limosoftware.
This is a book about theevolution of mobility and you
(21:46):
hit upon quite a few things, butI wanna focus because of what's
been in the news recently on thejust hurried deployment of robo
taxis.
So there's a ton of talk aboutautonomous.
When do you think thatautonomous vehicles meaning will
(22:08):
become mainstream?
Meaning we're gonna see'em onhighways?
And they're gonna be in servicein major US cities.
When are they gonna go from anovelty to normal?
In your mind?
What's the timeframe?
Leonardo Gannio (22:22):
Well, the timeframe?
will be between three to fiveyears.
But let me, let me base thisaffirmation.
one month ago, Sean Dfi Duffy,that is the Secretary of
Transportation, the FederalSecretary of deportation, he
released a framework for abs.
You know, that as in America,when the framework is put into
(22:46):
the market, all the forces alignitself just to start to produce
this country.
And my country here is like verypowerful in aligning and putting
resources to achieve a goal.
The second thing that is veryimportant is.
Waymo just launched theirservice in San Francisco I saw,
(23:08):
that you use Waymo in SanFrancisco and they achieve 27%
of the market share.
Only in 20 months.
Only in 20 months.
And let's be honest, becauseevery everyone says no, but
they're a taxi service.
I don't think that a Jaguar IPace is an entry-level car.
Ken Lucci (23:28):
Oh, uh, I, you know what's funny?
You tell me if I'm wrong, iftheir fleet was black, the li
the limo industry would beshitting its pants.
Oh, by the, by the way, I justwanna let you know I'm allowed
to swear he bleeps it out.
But we are on a podcast and weare somewhat not ruled by the
FCC, but I agree with you.
(23:49):
I've been in the back of afriend of mine's Jaguar, SUV.
It's ex, you know, just aprivate vehicle and it was black
with the same tan interior andit, you had the sa you had a
completely different experience,but they're all white, you are,
right.
And those, those jags, if youand I went out to buy one,
(24:10):
they're about 120,$130,000vehicle, aren't they?
Leonardo Gannio (24:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
They, I, I don't know aroundwhat, uh, what is the amount,
but they, they have the, thepower of aggregation.
They're buying cheap.
You know, let me, if you give metwo minutes, I will explain the,
because it's very important to,to explain our industry what is
going on.
I think that we are, uh, on theverge of a major transformation,
and as I told you, I believethat autonomous vehicles and
(24:36):
road taxes.
Will being going mainstream withthe next three to five years,
and we'll start seeking themacross Mayor US cities first in
meaningful numbers.
not just pilots, not just pilotmeaningful numbers, but as a
real transportation option.
what companies are leading thisdrug.
(24:57):
Companies like Waymo, mayMobility, so are already making
exciting progresses.
why they're progressing and whythis is working like this.
Autonomous vehicles, they workin a platform.
No matter what car manufactureris that is, uh, what we call
drive by wire.
(25:17):
That means that you cannotretrofit a normal car.
You need to have them from thefactory where the driver is a
truck driver like Tesla, whereyou hit the wheel driver.
But some cables are giving thesignal to, to go right or left.
The same for the accelerator thebrakes and everything.
(25:37):
Then there comes the technologyof the, what we call the
interceptors, the ones that pushthose, devices to move.
And then you have the brains andthe, all the radars and cameras.
today, all the cars are approvedto, to have a, a speed of 35
miles per hour, and they cannotget into a highway without the
(26:01):
driver.
Why?
Because the lidar technology andthe camera technology, you know,
the only that uses cameratechnology is Tesla.
All the rest are using Lidar.
that is safer than cameras.
Okay?
they are prepared for 35 milesper hour as maximum speed.
If you increase the speed, youincrease the cost of the cars.
(26:23):
But this is a matter of time.
They're going to reduce the costof that technology in the follow
three to five years.
Then with the framework, withthe technology, with the car
manufacturer, that they're goingto produce their drive-by work
cars as a single platform, wherewe see a lot of that, technology
coming in the following three tofive years.
(26:45):
And lemme give you a littletaste.
You know the name Gene Farley.
He's the CEO of Ford Motors in
Ken Lucci (26:54):
Oh yeah.
I saw his Yes.
Go.
I know what, go ahead.
I know what you're
Leonardo Gannio (26:58):
You, you know what car he drives?
Ken Lucci (27:01):
No.
What is he drive?
Leonardo Gannio (27:03):
Shomi.
SU seven is a Chinese car.
Shomi is the work biggestmanufacturer of, mobile phones.
They also manufacture, vacuumcleaners, robot vacuum cleaners.
And then they're producing carstoday because the technology is,
uh, the AI and all thetechnologies very similar what
(27:25):
we need in a car.
This guy is so happy with thatcar and is pushing all the
factory and all the developersbecause, it is an example.
The CIO is a beautiful car.
Let me tell you this is comingand they know that.
Ken Lucci (27:39):
You know, to your point, I follow, we have a ton
of databases that we get news,financial information, data
analytics, and I follow acompany called Pony ai.
Leonardo Gannio (27:51):
Pony Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
Ken Lucci (27:53):
Pony AI just announced their seventh
generation platform.
to your point, in China, theyare working with two auto
manufacturers to build models.
So evolving quickly in othercountries.
Wuhan China, you know, madefamous because of the COVID
(28:16):
virus, but Wuhan China, has30,000 avs on the road.
And someone was telling me theother day that they don't even,
they don't have any downtime oncharging because the vehicles go
back to the hub and someonechanges out the power source in
(28:37):
20 minutes and the vehicle goesback on the road.
Leonardo Gannio (28:41):
that is called Swappable battery technology.
Ken Lucci (28:44):
Say that again.
Leonardo Gannio (28:45):
Swappable battery technology.
You swap the battery.
Ken Lucci (28:49):
And think about that.
We don't have anything close tothat yet.
And at the end of the day, Ithink that you are right on the
three to five years we'refollowing.
In other cases, we are followingshuttle vans that are being
built in Korea.
They're being deployed right nowin Singapore.
(29:10):
They're being deployed in Dubai,and right now they're piloting
them in closed areas likecolleges and universities.
When I started looking into it,I see that the University of
Michigan's doing it, theUniversity of Mississippi is
doing it.
So I think you're on the moneythat it's gonna become more, a
(29:31):
lot more mainstream, muchquicker than we, that we
thought.
Leonardo Gannio (29:36):
Let me give you some insights.
You know that we partner withmain mobility.
Our platform is able to dispatchautonomous cars.
Main mobility has made anagreement with techno.
Bass is an Italian company tothe techno buses are those small
buses that they use in Europethat are more or less 40 people,
(30:00):
30 to 40 people.
That bus has swappable batterytechnology and they're going to
release that in the us uh, Ithink that end of 2026.
Then.
We will have them here as wespeak because different of what
the provider thinks.
The provider says, okay, I willlose the car business, but I, I
(30:22):
am gonna go to the coachbusiness.
No, no.
The coach business is gettingfaster to the autonomous side
than the cars.
Ken Lucci (30:30):
And when we, uh, one of the databases we use is, uh,
Dow Jones Factiva.
And when, when they were settingit up for us and,'cause I'm a
neophyte, they said, Ken, don'tlook at tech.
Just look at tech in the UnitedStates.
Look at it worldwide.
And this is how you get techinformation from all over the
(30:50):
country, all over the world.
And I was a little skepticaluntil I saw these continuous
names coming up from all overthe world.
and you're absolutely right.
Germany is big in it, Italy'sbig in it.
the Asia Pacific is justabsolutely incredible.
On, AVS and China is way aheadof us.
(31:12):
why do you think, China is wayahead of us?
Do you, think we'll catch up tothat tech?
When do you think we'll see,30,000 vehicles sit in Wuhan,
which I think Wuhan is probably,I have to look at the
population, but it's a verylarge city.
When do you think we'll see30,000 avs on the road?
Leonardo Gannio (31:31):
First I, I would say That China is not a
democracy.
Then they have the ability tofunnel resources by force, or
more than convincing.
But,
Ken Lucci (31:43):
That, that's a nice way to put it.
Funneling resources by force.
Leonardo Gannio (31:47):
Yeah.
And that is the way, and it is,it is been, it's been very
effective to be honest, but saidthat we are very good at
catching up.
Let, let, let me give you anexample.
Do you remember three years agothat Elam said we need to start
to work on AI only three yearsago because the Chinese were way
(32:10):
ahead?
Now AI is all over the UnitedStates.
We have several providers,several supervisors, then with
this framework of the federalgovernment.
And with this guideline, allthe, the resources are going to
be funnel a lot of, money andresources to do this.
Let me give you an example.
(32:30):
The other day I was talking to avery big provider and, um, he
told me no, you know, here inBoston is gonna be difficult.
To have autonomous vehiclesbecause the traffic is terrible.
Boom.
One week after Waymo announcedto, uh, the, the release in New
York, and I call him and said,New York is worse than Boston.
(32:52):
Boston is worse than New York.
Then we need to start to thinkin the future and start to take
out our mental barriers abouttechnology.
Imagine, you know, but I'm veryhappy, uh, I'm very positive.
In 2019, I was talking aboutautonomous vehicle and the
people were saying, Hey, whatyou smoking?
(33:13):
Then, but today what I see isthat there, there are many
opportunities because we see alot of providers that they're
very good business owners andthey're willing to grow.
Then, uh, I'm very positiveabout the future and let's be
very, direct on that as well.
There are many youngentrepreneurs that, with the
(33:34):
Right?
technology.
They will grow because theydon't need to deal with, uh,
drivers.
They will not need to deal witha lot of things.
And they will be the nextgeneration for our industry
where they will have RS insteadof drivers inside the cars.
Because you cannot eliminate,the, the drivers.
You, you'll have hybrid fleets.
(33:55):
You know, if you have anautonomous Rolls Royce in the
future, you're not going to senda car.
You're going to send a personthat will help the people with
luggage, help the people withother things.
But again, it will be hybrid andthey will be, as I told in the
hospitality business, not in thetransportation business.
Ken Lucci (34:13):
You know it.
So what I hear you saying,because first of all, I, I,
every single day I fight thesame sentiment that you heard
from that Boston operator, whichagain, the definition is
omniscient thinking.
You are assuming that tomorrowin business is going to be
(34:34):
exactly like today andyesterday, and there's just no
way.
In this era that we're in, inthis tech advanced era, that's
valid, right?
So tech is gonna move forward.
It's gonna move forward with orwithout us.
I love this, this story aboutwhen automobiles first came into
(34:55):
existence, there were 3,200automobile makers in the first
five years.
And then over time it came downto, in the United States, the
big three.
So do you agree with thisstatement that AVS are going to
be perceived as a negative?
(35:15):
Auto autonomous vehicles aregonna be perceived as a negative
disruptor in the beginning, inthe chauffeur space.
But for those that embrace thefuture there's opportunity here
for them.
Leonardo Gannio (35:30):
let me, uh, I believe that autonomous vehicles
will ultimately evolve into apowerful opportunity for our
industry.
But, uh, like any technologyshift, the transition will be
disrupted at first, and Irecommend a lecture, you know,
a, a reading of a publication ofa novel ate Darren and Repo.
(35:54):
They have a paper that is calledAutomation and New Tasks.
This paper
Ken Lucci (36:00):
AU automation
Leonardo Gannio (36:01):
automation and, new tasks from Repo and Asog,
they are no prices.
you know, they're not LeonardoGao and Ken, they are PhD, you
know, they, they are big guys,recognize worldwide.
and we understand that thetechnology doesn't just
eliminate jobs.
It also creates new roles,business models and source of
(36:24):
value.
The net effort depends onwhether the economy and
stakeholders can adapt quicklyenough to unlock those new
opportunities.
And let me give you one,
Ken Lucci (36:36):
I want you to repeat, I want you to repeat that last
sentence.
It all depends on the adoptionof who
Leonardo Gannio (36:45):
The providers they need to adopt new
technologies.
And they need to adopt not only.
New roles, new business modelsand new sources of value.
Because the net effect dependson where the economy and
stakeholders can adapt quickly.
They need to adapt very quicklyto unlock these new
opportunities.
Let me give you an example, doyou have thought in 2018 when we
(37:10):
met that you were going to to bea horse in a podcast?
Ken Lucci (37:15):
No.
Leonardo Gannio (37:15):
Okay, why?
Let me give you this case.
On the early nineties, therewere six big producers, like MGM
Universal Paramount Plus untilYouTube appear
Ken Lucci (37:31):
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (37:32):
and what happened with YouTube?
They said, no, they are killingall the industry.
No, no, No.
No.
At the very beginning, it was adisruption, and now you have
thousands of thousands ofproducers and creators enable
those old production companies.
They are in the, in this space.
(37:54):
Then we need to understand thatnow is the moment we are in a
pivotal moment of our industry.
We need to talk to the NLA, weneed to talk about this in, in
all the shows.
We need to talk with everysingle provider because they
need to understand that AI ishere and in two years you are
(38:16):
going to be an AI company oryou're going to be in the other
side.
The other side is going to failand disappear.
Ken Lucci (38:22):
Uh, you, you're a hundred percent right.
And I, and I will share with,share this with you, but I can't
say for who.
We, for the first, we'vereceived our first financial
analysis engagement to do a costpro forma on the cost of an AV
vehicle.
Okay.
Which this is a, a, alongstanding customer that we've
(38:45):
had who've said, listen, I'vebeen approached with an
opportunity and I want you to doa cost model and fixed cost
variables.
What do I need to charge forrevenue to achieve the margins
that, you know, that we preach?
And I said, I just wanna let youknow this is the first AV that
someone has asked us to do.
(39:05):
His comment was, oh, there'sgonna be many more.
Uh, you know, this is a companythat's on the cutting edge.
The other thing I will sharewith you is I had a conversation
with Chris Weiss, the publisherof Chauffeur Driven, and we are
starting, we're gonna start todo a, a column on AV for him.
And we'll, I, I, I do not underany circumstances, see myself as
(39:30):
ever becoming an expert at it.
But I will tell you that we willtake the data that we curate and
we will compile it on thesecompanies.
Leonardo Gannio (39:41):
I have a dream and my dream is you and me in a
stage in the NLA Las Vegaspresenting the future of the
mobility because I'm a littletired of hearing, you can use
chat GPT to write an email toyour customers.
Hey, you know, uh, you can usethis technology to reduce the
(40:05):
cost of, uh, the car processing.
That is, those are conversationsof the nineties.
Ken Lucci (40:12):
Oh, there's, listen, there's no listen, there's no
question about it, because AI isso daunting and AV is so
daunting and it's changing dailythat I, I think there's a fear.
I think there's an apprehension.
And the other thing I'venoticed, it's funny, this is my
first role as an analyst.
(40:33):
You know, I started the companyin 18, we were part-time 18 and
19, and it just took off like arocket ship.
But one of the things I've seenis far as entrepreneurs, two
things.
One is.
They're very reluctant toreceive criticism on the
(40:53):
business or the box that they'vecreated.
They really are in many cases.
The second thing that I've seen,and, and there are exceptions by
the way, there are some who callupon us and say, we've gotten to
a certain point.
We need your help getting usgetting to another level
financially.
The other piece of the puzzle ispeople say they embrace change
(41:16):
but change is not muscle memoryto the average person.
True change, evolutionary changeis scary to a lot of people, but
I think to your point, we areway past the time as an industry
where we can ignore it.
I, I look at it, the, I look atit this way.
(41:37):
Excuse me one second.
Back in before Uber, only.
11% of the country used taxisand it was all in the urban
spaces.
Only 8% of America, the pubpopulation used chauffeur
services and it was allcorporations.
(41:59):
Well, now 60% of the populationhas a TNC app on their phone,
and 40% use one of those TNCsmore than six times a month.
Now they don't use them a littlelot of cases early, early
(42:20):
morning to get to the airport.
You know, they're TNCs are likethe post office, right?
Anytime you need to mail a aletter, you use a T, you use the
post office.
But if you have to get it there,you use Federal Express.
We are federal.
We are the Federal Express withRitz.
We like to think with RitzCarlton luxury, but we're still
operating on.
(42:42):
That's pre Uber, which isfrustrating.
Leonardo Gannio (42:46):
Yeah, but even Federal Express and u uh, UPS,
they need to change and embracethe new tech, the new, uh,
digital technology because nowyou can follow up your parcels.
Before that was unthinkable, andnow you have an app where you
can follow up the parcels or, orwhat you are sending through
them.
But let me tell you somethingthat, that I think that is very
(43:09):
important.
we need to know where to fight,the business model of the TNCs
that they're growing and they'reeating our lunch, again, they
are eating our lunch.
let's not be in denial mode.
They're easy to hire.
They're always available, andthey're easy to pay.
(43:33):
That is the basic businessmodel.
Okay.
Ken Lucci (43:36):
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (43:36):
Then once I was hearing the podcast, because I
am, I'm, I'm, I am a, a followerof the post, and I saw a
provider that he was very proudof having multiple screens, uh,
while dispatching the cards.
And I thought, that is not a,that is not a differentiator
(43:57):
while you are operating yourcompany.
If Elon Musk can send a rocketto the Space Station with only
one screen
Ken Lucci (44:05):
And catch it.
Leonardo Gannio (44:07):
And
Ken Lucci (44:07):
it.
Leonardo Gannio (44:08):
why this person is so happy to have six screens,
while with mags our technology,he can have one screen only and
relaying our AI technology.
And I call him, I think that hereacted with your ear.
He, he was not thinking, andagain, I agree with you that his
(44:29):
fear.
It's not that they are arrogant,it's fear.
That's why
Ken Lucci (44:35):
Yeah.
Leonardo Gannio (44:35):
I think that this dream that they have to
explain the future oftechnology, lead by the NLA and
the and the software drivenmagazine will be a breakthrough
in our industry.
Just to leave behind all thatold type of conversation and
discussion and start to discussthis new technology.
Ken Lucci (44:58):
Well, and you, and to your point, you know, you, you
can't just have an article on AIor a session on ai.
It now has to live in everythingthe industry does and look at
and look at what we ask thequestions.
What can we expect?
Similar, similar situation.
(45:19):
When I take a, a chauffeur carto the airport, I call a
company.
We're, I'm in a suburb, veryrural area.
I call a company and I have tocontinually repeat my home
address, the airline I'm goingto and the airport, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera.
What I don't understand is whycan't I, at the very least, the
(45:43):
most rudimentary, why can't Icall a phone number and say,
this is Ken Luci calling from 72 7 6 3 8 3 3 8 8, pick me up at
my house, going to SalisburyAirport, flight number 40 42 21.
Repeat back or te send me a textmessage.
You know, the human, when we dothe, when we do an analysis on
(46:04):
how much it costs to take areservation.
These people, operators areleaving five, 10,$15 on the
table because the process iscompletely manual constantly.
We don't even have the abilityto have our favorites right
recorded.
So if I can order myprescription through CVS without
(46:30):
talking to a human being andgetting a and get a text reply,
why are we so far behind?
Leonardo Gannio (46:37):
Again, we talk about the monopoly.
We talk about the comfort of notchanging.
We talk about, narrative in themarket that is completely wrong.
Then you can do that for yourcompany today.
Maybe not the way you do it, butlet me tell you, you don't need
to rely on, on mags.
(46:58):
You have seven companies, sevencompanies in the United States
with IVR, interactive voicerecognition that they're working
with ai.
You can hire them.
You have the pricing on the weband hook kept that to Mags and
Magis will receive thatreservation as an automatic
reservation.
Then again, we need to tell allthe story.
(47:21):
If you write only a paper and acolumn of abs, they're going to
read and say, okay, we are farfrom there.
Ken Lucci (47:29):
Oh no.
They'll say that's nice, but itdoesn't apply to me.
Leonardo Gannio (47:33):
Yeah.
if you explain all the picturewith all the pieces of the
puzzle it started, it will bestarted to make sense for them.
We need to explain all thepicture, and this is what is
about mobility 3.0, explainingall the picture, telling the
people that if You work forUber, your net gain is$9.
(47:56):
Is not 25 is nine because afteramortization, after social
benefits, after those things,you are not going to replace
your car, but you'll figure outthat five years later,
Ken Lucci (48:09):
Yeah.
Leonardo Gannio (48:10):
in, in the beginning.
Ken Lucci (48:12):
and I did a podcast called The Uber Dream and it was
so edgy that the producer put adisclaimer on it.
Okay, now this is this stuffthis podcast is an outlet for me
because six days a week I'mlooking at financial statements.
My business partner and I arecrunching like little numbers,
(48:35):
and it's, it's taxing right?
The entire reason why we did theUber Dream is because I've just
spoken to too many Uber driversand seen too many Uber drivers
comment on Facebook.
That just what you said, Ithought I was going to make X
(48:56):
and after you deduct all this,I'm not making minimum wage.
You, you hit upon something inyour book about the unintended
consequences of the gig economy.
The gig economy's hidden cost,how it's eroding the American
middle class.
That chapter should, thischapter itself should be sent to
(49:20):
everybody in dc every laborsecretary in every single state.
Okay.
And they should, beyond justreading the chapter, they should
do the math, the Uber driver,the Uber driver that they're
taking from the capitol.
To their condo is not evenmaking minimum wage.
(49:41):
Not only, you said somethingabout the the social safety net
and the social consequences.
Tell me what, what did, whatprompted that chapter in the
book?
Leonardo Gannio (49:53):
Hmm.
Very good question.
I think that in our industry, wehave a say in my, in my bond
camp, uh, country, you know, wehave a lot of soccer.
Uh, we have been, uh, uh, war,uh, championships, and we say
every single, uh, habitat ofthat country is a ma, is a
manager.
(50:13):
They, everyone knows about futo,uh, or soccer, sorry.
Ken Lucci (50:18):
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.
Leonardo Gannio (50:19):
that in our industry.
Everyone knows how to save theeconomy and how to manage this
business, then I think that wedon't need to wait the
government to do something withUber.
I think that we need to bringtools and empower business
owners to win this digitaleconomy.
(50:42):
And this is the way to increasejobs and to increase, you know,
the, the, the, the power ofaggregation in our industry, and
tell me if I'm wrong, they all,they can, people that want to
sell their businesses, peoplethat they're reducing, people
that are saying, I'm too old andthey're 50 years old, said, too
(51:05):
old for what?
No, no.
You want to quit and you want toget some money from your, your
company.
But again, we need to plant theseed for them to tell them you
have a tool.
You have the market and you havenew opportunities that you need
to grab.
You have campus universitycampuses, you have hospital
(51:26):
campuses, you have governmentcampuses that you are not
delivering that service.
You have cities.
We have been engaging with a lotof municipalities for micro
transit.
Who do you think that are goingto manage those cars, not us,
the providers and are in abetter position with all the
locations to service thosepeoples, our providers, the
(51:48):
National Limo Associationbusiness partners.
Then we have a uniqueopportunity today before they
start to eat our lunch.
But we need to automate with AIand second focus on revenue
growth margin.
That's it.
Ken Lucci (52:05):
Yeah, no, you, you, you're right on the money.
Let me, and let me emphasize,emphasize why the other day,
yesterday I did an update an AVtrend update on at NC called
Grab, and they are huge.
Singapore.
Okay.
Now they just contracted with aKorean auto, uh, AV co auto
(52:30):
autonomous vehicle company.
And they're a full stack fromliterally from the building of
the vehicle to the platform, theAV platform.
Do you know what they're doing?
Grab is doing a pilot program,and they're partnering with the
equivalent of the NationalLimousine Association.
(52:51):
Okay.
They're for the autonomousvehicle pilot.
They're training the drivers tobe safety at attendants inside
the av.
So grab, I said to myself, grabis literally the equivalent of
Uber, okay.
In, in that part of the world,they are parting.
(53:14):
With the National LiveryAssociation over there for this
AV pilot program.
So to me, that's proof positivethat there are opportunities
here.
Now let's just be, let's just berealistic.
There are gonna be a lot ofoperators who are left behind
because they don't embracechange.
(53:35):
They may not have the capital.
Okay.
But at the end of the day, Ithink that the first operators
that are the innovators, and youand I know a couple of them, and
you're working with a couple ofthem and a couple of, they're my
clients as well.
Those innovators may take maytake some bruises and a learning
experience, but that mentalityis going to rule the day, that
(54:01):
mentality of innovation and the,and saying, no, no AVS are
competing with me.
I think that operators need to.
Learn everything they possiblycan.
They need to be involved withtheir local regulators.
They need to understand and getthemselves on the radar of
everybody on autonomous thatthey can.
(54:23):
Because to your point, I mean,Waymo at some point is going to
get sick and tired of buildinghubs around the country, right?
And Tesla doesn't like buildingthose kind of hubs.
They don't even like to buy, youknow, they don't even have
traditional dealerships.
And the same with Zoox, the samewith MA Mobility, and I know
(54:45):
mobility.
You know, one of, one of yourpartners and they are looking,
actively looking for fleetoperators.
So in the last f five minutes,what, what's your final message
to any livery operator orprovider that's listening to us?
By the way, the audience isgrowing.
Uh, John tells me we're doingfantastically well, uh, which is
(55:07):
good'cause this is like a secondjob.
What is your final message tooperators, on the subject of
transformation and innovation?
Leonardo Gannio (55:18):
Well first I will tell them that in the near
future they will be three typeof operators.
One the one that is going toembrace change, and they were
going to be the ones that moveforward, the industry.
The second ones are going to bea service company that will
(55:39):
maintain the autonomous cars ofother operators or other
companies.
And that could be a good job.
You know, they're going to earnmoney, but they're going to be
in the background like expect.
And the third one are the onethat they were going to
disappear.
Ken Lucci (55:55):
Yes.
And I, by the way, we're seeingit and it's not, we're not
seeing it because of AVnecessarily, but there's a quiet
cleansing going on, and it'sprimarily because of fleet
insurance going through the roofthe inability to financially
manage that cost issue.
(56:15):
But as far as I'm concerned,it's the same thing.
We have been talking aboutchanges in commercial fleet
insurance and the hard marketfor the past three years, and
it's.
The operators that are goingoutta business now are the ones
that didn't listen back then.
Okay.
And I know I have friends onthat.
The insurance side researchunderwriter, Steve Freeberg is
(56:38):
one of, just admire the hell outof what he's built, the biggest
private, commercial, uh, agencyin the country.
And he said, Ken, what you'vebeen saying, we've been saying
what you've been saying forthree years.
We've been saying for 30.
Thank you.
Thank you fi People are finallylistening.
But the same's gonna happen withAI and AV the same thing, but,
(56:59):
and I think it's gonna happenfaster.
you are a hundred percent right.
Leonardo Gannio (57:03):
Uh, and, and pricing are going down.
Uh, if you start to talk to theinsurance companies, like
Principal or other companies,they are, they're starting to
change their business modelbecause autonomous cars are zero
accident or free accident.
No.
Then they need to change the waythe business model for
(57:25):
transportation, and they'restarting to analyze insurance in
the person, not the car.
Because the person is subject tothe movement.
They can take a car, they cantake a micro mobility, a
bicycle, they can do a lot ofthings.
And they've started to thinkabout inuring in, in fact, there
is one company, Latin America,that started to insure people
(57:49):
while they're moving from oneside to the other.
Then again, I think that thefuture is bright, Ken, it's
fantastic, but it'll take a lotof work, a lot of enthusiasm and
a lot of openness to start toembrace technology.
Let's move our industry from thedenial to the proactive way of
(58:11):
thinking, and let's partner alltogether because this is coming,
and let me tell you, not inKorea.
Here in the United States, youhave many new companies that
they're not part of the NLA andthey're huge operators and
they're operating with EVs,they're operating with
municipalities, and they'rebuilding new TNCs in the market.
(58:34):
New York, Florida many places.
Ken Lucci (58:38):
Yep.
I agree.
I agree.
So the message today is evolve,or let or get left behind the
message of the today is to,let's, as an industry try to
move the, move our limo techforward, and, uh, perhaps not
listen to the same voices or, orthe same empty promises move
(58:58):
forward.
We're gonna move forward andsucceed with AI and, embrace av,
uh, as it shakes out.
I think it's gonna be anextremely good thing for the
industry because labor is sointensive and difficult to get.
we do a great job managingfleet.
We do a terrific job keeping'emon the road.
So I think that you're right,the future is gonna be bright
(59:19):
for the industry, but it's gonnarequire a An awakening.
Leonardo Gannio (59:24):
And, and and new talent.
New jobs, new talent.
And that is, and to get a newtalent, you need to learn.
Ken Lucci (59:32):
So everybody for those who can't see me on
YouTube.
Go to Amazon and buy Mobility3.0, how to win and Thrive in
the future of Passengertransportation.
Leonardo from jis, thank you somuch for taking the time out to
be on our podcast.
And I will see you, uh, at thechauffeur driven show in Dallas,
(59:55):
I hope in the fall.
If not, we're definitely gonnasee you in the chauffeur driven
NLA show in Las Vegas.
Thank you very much.
Leonardo Gannio (01:00:03):
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to theground transportation podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please remember to subscribe to
the show on apple, Spotify,YouTube, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
For more information about PAXtraining and to contact James,
go to PAX training.com.
(01:00:23):
And for more information aboutdriving transactions and to
contact Ken, Go to drivingtransactions.com.
We'll see you next time on theground transportation podcast.
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