The Kayak of Rideshare: Exploring Obi's Price Aggregation with CEO Ashwini Anburajan

Episode Transcript
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Ken Lucci (00:25):
Well, welcome everybody to another exciting
episode of the GroundTransportation Podcast.
My name is Ken Lucci fromDriving Transactions.
I'm blessed today to be with aspecial guest, but I want to
call out the fact that mypartner in crime, James Blaine,
is sadly from PACS training, isnot here today.
He's out training a group ofchauffeurs, perhaps a group of

(00:46):
motor coach drivers.
So sadly I'm doing the solo,but.
I am so blessed to, have aspecial guest, Ashwini correct
me,

Ashwini Anburajan (00:59):
Awin, but

Ken Lucci (01:01):
Ashwini Ashwini for, and she's the chief Executive
Officer of a, of an excitingcompany called Obi, OBI Ride.
obi.com is the website.
Now, I found you.
Full disclosure by the reportthat came out on, on your
company and you in Forbes

amazing.
I didn't realize that.

Ken Lucci (01:23):
so we, we have a lot of databases.
We, we, we have access to aBloomberg terminal, but we also
have, every day Factiva comes tous.
Um, Dow Jones comes to us onanything we track in mobility,
and you came to us and I was soimpressed with, you know, the,
the title of Forbes, and I'mgonna let you talk about it, is

(01:44):
Obie is the Kayak of Rideshare.
So give us an, an idea or giveus a description of OB and
please give us your bio and whatbrought you to this exciting
opportunity to be chiefExecutive Officer of ob.

Thank you so much.
I really appreciate it.
Um, so Obi is a rideshareaggregator, so you can see
prices and wait times in onescreen.
So if you're in New York, youcan compare Uber, Lyft, curb and
power in a single app in SanFrancisco.
It could be Waymo, Uber, andLyft.
In London, it would be FreenowBolt, Uber.

(02:23):
Addison Lee, et cetera.
Um, we call it the Kayak forRideshare because this meta
aggregation and search hasexisted in the airplane and the
travel industry for a very longtime.
It has not actually existedthough in ground transportation,
and there are many players outthere.
There are many options for ridesand some people want a luxury

(02:44):
ride, but some people just wannaride as quickly as possible to
where they need to go, andthey're willing to pay whatever
they need to for it.
Uh, OB users are power users ofRideshare.
They use Rideshare.
I have multiple rideshare appson their phone.
So the app is very easy to use,right?
You simply put your location in,you can deep link into the

(03:05):
different rideshare providersand you can use the app in 175
countries.
And we've grown to over amillion users and, um, I'm
really excited to be in the newrole.
I was Chief Revenue Officer.
I joined the company in October,2023 and, um, in August, uh,
took the, took the CEO role.

(03:26):
So

Ken Lucci (03:27):
Nice.
Now you have a great bio though.
You've got something.
Were you an NBC reporter at one

I was, I started my career in politics
covering Barack Obama's 2007,2008

Ken Lucci (03:40):
Uh, how we hearken back to those years.
We don't get political here, butI'm just gonna say that, but go

yeah.
So I

Ken Lucci (03:47):
great.

It's what?
It's what's called a digitalembed.
So you live on the road, youchase the candidates around with
a camera and a microphone and arecorder.
You put your stories on ablackberry.
I'm aging myself, but it wastrue.
I was outta college.
I was outta college.
And that's what I did.
And I did that for, um, at NVC.

(04:08):
And I saw that the mediaindustry was changing.
I was interested in technology.
Um, and I decided to go tobusiness school, and straight
outta business school.
I started working at Buzzfeed,um, as like, kind of like a new
model for digital media.
And you asked me how I came toob.
It's because at Buzzfeed I wasintroduced to the concept of
consumer data and um, I was putin charge of a data network and

(04:31):
had to monetize that data forBuzzfeed.
And that really set me on thetrajectory of my career.
what I'm really good at isworking at consumer
applications.
Figuring and figuring out how tomonetize the data behind that
application.
And I was, came to OB becausethey had an incredible data set
on rideshare pricing, consumerlocation, et cetera.

(04:54):
And, um, had known the founderfor a long time and he said, you
know, we need to figure out howwe monetize our data set.
And I said, I think I can helpyou do that.
So, um, we started publishingreports.
Our Global Rideshare report, forexample, our report on Waymo
pricing.
Um, and we began to monetize thedataset.
So the app is free to use forconsumers.

(05:17):
Um, it's not subscription based.
We don't always collectaffiliate fees on, on the ride.
So you're really getting a verytrue picture of what's available
at the moment.
But we do monetize the data thatwe're collecting on the backend.

Ken Lucci (05:30):
Sure.
So, so distill this down, if Iwanted to, I could just have the
Obi app instead of having all ofthe different apps on my phone,
correct.

No, you still need the different apps on your
phone because we don't

Ken Lucci (05:42):
You still need to be a subscriber.
You still need to be thesubscriber.
Gotcha.
So walk me through it at a sixthgrade level, because I'm old.
I open up the OB app and tell mewhat happens.

Yeah, so you open up the OB app, it's gonna
ask you to link your accountsacross different

Ken Lucci (05:58):
Of course.
Makes

can link into Uber.
You can link into Lyft to curb,um, bolt if you're in, you know,
in Europe, Kareem, if you're inthe Middle East, for example.
And,

Ken Lucci (06:13):
other one we, we ride?

um, there's, yang and Kareem are the biggest,
I think.
We ra that, I think it's asmaller provider, but uh, we
don't have it yet, to be

Ken Lucci (06:23):
yeah.
They're in China.
They're China making their wayover.

Okay.
And so in, in Mexico City, youcan have Didi, like for example.
So it does require you to, onsome level, to download
different apps, right?
but you can link the apps andwhether you're linked or not,
you will see a search, you willsee the pricing.
And what it does is that itgives you the pricing, it

(06:46):
compares.
Uber, Lyft, Didi Kareem, dependson where you are.
And you can deep link in and youcan sort by ETA.
you can sort by price and youcan sort by type of ride.
So if you want a premium car ora large car, for example, in
certain markets we have blackcar companies as well.

(07:08):
So you'll see Carmel sedan, forexample, in New York and
Chicago.
and that's something that we'retrying to do is to bring more
smaller and independentcompanies onto, onto the app in

Ken Lucci (07:20):
Well, we can help you with that.

Okay.
That's that's good to know.

Ken Lucci (07:23):
Yeah,

And I think that, you know, one of the big,
big focuses is that rideshareis, you know, you ask how I
ended up in this role.
Like I, I have cut down on myrideshare spend.
But like, I live in Brooklyn,you know, it was like, I used to
be one of those people thatwould take the subway at two in
the morning and, uh, during thepandemic that that habit

(07:46):
stopped, uh, as it, as it neededto.
And so it just started takingrideshare a lot.
And at one point, like, I thinkit was in 21 or something, my,
my bills were like 800, 900 amonth.
On, on, like, you know, in,

Ken Lucci (08:00):
it can easily go there because it's a convenience
addiction, right.

yeah.
Completely.
And so for me it was just like,it, it made natural sense to
like, you know, and I, Iactually started using the app
and I started staving money.
I was a very loyal Uber user.
I only used Uber'cause I justcouldn't be bothered, you know,
with, with anything else.
I think I had Uber one on top ofit.
And, but then I started usingthe app and I, I started using

(08:24):
Curb, I started using Lyft andthere was actually like a
diversity in my, in my optionsand my bill went down.
Uh, and you know, I startedplaying like 600 a month instead
For, for Rideshare?

Ken Lucci (08:37):
so this is, let me stop you there.
This is not a static price.
This is live pricing and liveavailability.

Yes.

Ken Lucci (08:44):
Wow.
So there's gotta be a backendconnection there way above my
pay grade from a techperspective,

Yeah.
We are able to, to pull pricingvia, accounts.
Um, and.
There's a secret sauce behindthat as as well, we have API
links to some of the providers.
and the goal there is to createconsumer transparency in price,

Ken Lucci (09:07):
So talk about that.
I mean, that's, that's yourvalue prop besides by the way,
that's total added convenience.
That I can find out who'savailable, what the prices are
from all of them without openingup their individual apps, per
se.
Right.
And then I make a choice and iteither can, it can either
automatically open up that appor I just go out and I open it

(09:29):
up.
But you do the shopping for me.

Yeah, we'll deep link you into the app as
long as the app is on yourphone.

Ken Lucci (09:35):
it can be that easy if you do the, if you, if you're
much smarter than me and you canactually connect the two things
together, my business partnerwould do it.
So that's easy.
So you, so talk to me about theprice transparency aspect,
because you know, here to four,that's been a problem for the
TNCs.
I could take the same trip.

(09:56):
And it's dramatically, as GeorgeBush would say, ally different,
dramatically different eachtime.
And that's really, I irritating.
I mean, I even noticed it lastweek or two weeks ago when I was
in New York because I, and I didtake a TNC, but like a month and
a half ago, I took the same tripand it was unbelievably less

(10:18):
expensive.
It was the same

cause it's dynamic pricing, right.

Ken Lucci (10:22):
So talk to us about pricing transparency and, and,
and the, the sentiment of theconsumers.
The sentiment of the users.

look like we are growing organically.
we don't spend a lot ofmarketing and we saw our user
base double last year becauseconsumers are paying more for
rideshare than they ever werebefore.
They're also taking more trips.
So you're seeing this, thismarket is growing, right?

(10:50):
I mean, rideshare has gottensexy again'cause of avs and
people are excited about what'shappening in autonomous
vehicles.
They're like enthusiastic aboutthe experience they're getting,
but fundamentally, they weretaking more rides anyway.
They were paying more forrideshare anyway.
And when we look at what we'redoing in terms of dynamic

(11:10):
pricing, there's multiple thingsthat affect it at any given
time.
We know that we've done researchthat, um, weather obviously time
of day traffic patterns, supplyand demand.
The availability of cars at anygiven moment obviously makes,
makes a huge, makes a hugedifference.

Ken Lucci (11:29):
Location and reference to events like
concerts and football games.
Yeah.

Um, you know, like congestion pricing, you
know, in Rideshare has existedalways, right?
'cause the price is gonna go up.
And I think that, you know, thedynamism of the pricing is a
reason that apps like oursexist.
People expect this fromairlines.
They expect airlines to havedifferent prices on different
days, different times.
There's a lot of gamificationaround.

(11:56):
When should you be looking forlike a flight?
Um, rideshare doesn't exist inthat way'cause it's an immediate
demand, right?
You go out and you want it tohail a taxi back in the day.
You call a car now from, fromyour phone.
It's really where you are in anygiven moment, and you need it.
You need the demand to meet youat that moment.
The idea that that price shouldbe static is.
I think it's unrealistic.

(12:17):
And it was unrealistic in thetaxi industry, right?
And back then they used to havesurcharges for rush hour or
other, other aspects of it.
Now they have surcharges forcongestion pricing.
If you're in New York City,right, you're coming into
midtown or downtown, you haveto, you have to pay more to do
that.
And I think that's.
That's to be expected in anykind of dynamic market.

(12:39):
the difference, and I thinkwhere consumers get frustrated
is they don't understand why theprice is changing and why it's
so different.
Um, and I think that that, youknow, there's a black box around
a lot of these algorithms, butwe, we do know that are key
factors that influence it.
It's supply, it's traffic on thestreets, it's time of day, it's
weather.
And, and those are the, thoseare the four biggest things that

(13:00):
are gonna influence your, yourprice.

Ken Lucci (13:02):
Okay.
So are you at the point whereyou're saying, listen, if you
waited, this would cost you muchless?
Do you have to go right now?

Yeah, so we, we, we have the data to do it.
We

Ken Lucci (13:17):
Don't, don't tell me the secret sauce.
'cause I can't keep a secret,but so, so

We also have the data to say, walk two blocks
and your price is gonna go down.
And, um, we may or may not berolling out those types of
features in, in the future, butwe've had that type of data for
a very long time.

Ken Lucci (13:36):
Okay, so why wouldn't a consumer download ob?

I mean, there's no reason not to.
If you take a Rideshare app andyou're gonna be in a major city,
you should download Adobe.
You will save money, you'll savebetween 10 to 30% per ride.

Ken Lucci (13:51):
Wow.

Yeah.
And what we know from consumers,this is just a like, just like.
Rideshare is a commodity.
there is some level of brandloyalty.
We see at about 10 to 20% brandloyalty, among consumers.
But most consumers, especiallyAmerican consumers who spend the
most on rideshare, are reallylike a$1 difference, will swing

(14:14):
90% of users.

Ken Lucci (14:56):
And, and it's interesting to me, and I've,
I've had these esotericdiscussions about.
Doesn't it have to be more thanprice?
At some point when you'rebuilding a brand based on lowest
price, lowest price, lowestprice, at some point it needs to
be about more, right?
So talk to look.

(15:16):
I would say no.
There's no reason why anycorporation or any individual
wouldn't download ob.
Do you have, and again, nosecret sauce, do you have any
idea, any, uh.
Ideas about going after thecorporate space and offering
corporate portals or corporatetravel management tools.

We've, we've been approached by a few folks
about it, but it wasn't like aserious enough discussion for us
to, to really engage.
I think that.
We could definitely helpcompanies save money.
There's no, there's no questionabout it.
Um, I think that, you know, it'snot an era.
We've explored a lot.
We'd be very open, so reach outif you're, if you're interested

(15:58):
in talking to us about it.
but definitely, you know, it isfundamentally a consumer app on
the go

Ken Lucci (16:05):
How deep is your tech bench?
Again, just

How would you, how would I, what, what do
you mean by that question?

Ken Lucci (16:13):
know, you, you said you're introducing some new
features and I love the fact, Ilove the fact in an urban area,
you can say to me, listen.
You know, guess some exercise.
Walk 500 feet that way and I'mgonna save you three bucks.

yeah,

Ken Lucci (16:26):
Do you, do you have the tech, the, the backend to,
to, to keep developing the appthat way as the value prop moves
forward

yeah, because I obs been in the market now for
about five years,

Ken Lucci (16:38):
based in Netherlands

Uh, no.
We're based in, we're based inNew York City, in Union Square.
We have offices in France andPoland, where we have a lot of
our team.
So Mo, a lot of our team isEuropean.

Ken Lucci (16:52):
And your founder, who?
Your founder, who was

The founder is Pam Safa.
Um, he started the company.
About 10 years ago under adifferent brand and different
value prop.
Um, we pivoted to OB in 20192019.
2020.
And he is based in Los Angeles.
So we're a very distributed teamand, um, very close knit team

(17:15):
though, I would say.
And, you know, I think we're avery, very technical team and
it's like 85% of people on theteam are engineers and data s.

Ken Lucci (17:25):
Awesome data.
Data is our life, but somewhatmore rudimentary than, than what
you do.
And we do a lot of m and a data.
We do financial metrics from.
Financial metrics, if you wantto know what the average company
spends for fuel driver labor, etcetera, where your people, what
the gross margins are on the, onthe buy reservation side.

(17:45):
So how are you viewed by therideshare companies as
complimentary or as a comcompetitor, or how are you
viewed?

I like to think of us as a cooperate.

Ken Lucci (17:58):
Sure.
Um,

I think that, I think there's been resistance
in the rideshare industry.
To moving into meta aggregationand meta search, and there's a
reason for it.
They learn the lessons viahotels and airlines and other,
other, other platforms, um, orother, other aspects of the
travel and mobility industry.
That being said, there is anacknowledgement that consumers

(18:23):
really like using us and there'san acknowledgement that our data
is very valuable.
And so we do sell our data andthere are ride share companies
that buy our data sets.
So we have, um, it's a push-pullrelationship, you know, and it's
imperfect, but it's there.

(18:44):
And, um, I think as time goeson, my hope is that there will
be more rideshare companies thatembrace the idea of direct
booking within Obi putting like,you know, and having more of a.
Integrated relationship with us,um, because I think it's just
gonna drive, um, driveengagement and drive more

(19:05):
optionality for, for theconsumer.

Ken Lucci (19:07):
Well, and let's talk about optionality opening up,
right?
Um, we, we, I've become obsessedwith autonomous vehicles every
day.
I, you know, every day ourdatabases from Dow Jones or, uh,
from Dun and Bradstreet, or fromPitchBook, or from Crunchbase or
from Bloomberg, we searcheverything autonomous vehicle.

(19:31):
And I can't get over.
When I started doing thetracking the data, I'd get five
articles a week.
Now I get 10 a day.

Yeah.

Ken Lucci (19:41):
Um, when I, we started doing the data
aggregate, not aggregation, butresearch, et cetera.
There were no financialinstitutions doing reports on
autonomous, and now JP Morgan'sgot one.
Goldman's got one, pitchbooksgot one, and it's a deep dive

(20:01):
into the autonomous space.
When you look at what's justtaken place over the last 12
months with the expansion ofWaymo with, with Tesla's entry
into autonomous.
Give us an idea of where youthink both the ride share

(20:22):
landscape, what are there otherplayers gonna come into the US
market?
And then give us an idea ofwhere you think autonomous is
gonna be in the next three tofive years.

Yeah.
Um, what you're seeing is like arapid acceleration, right?
Like it was the idea of like a,a GI like, you know, coming.
Like, you know, when you look atopen AI and what happened when,
when they rolled out GPT, it wasthe first consumer brand.
People embraced it and it juststarted to take off.
Right?
And it's impacted now an entireindustry around search and the

(20:57):
internet and how people sourceinformation because there was
consumer enthusiasm for it.

Ken Lucci (21:04):
Absolutely.

And it was a superior product that was highly
well delivered and had spentmany, many, many years in a, you
know.
Like in the back, like, youknow, with the, with the curtain
pole.
Like the curtain like drawn.
Um, and I think that's the exactsame thing that's happened with
Rideshare Navs.
Uh, I think the rollout ofOpenAI and GPT is really a good
example of how Waymo has rolledout its cars.

(21:28):
The level of enthusiasm forWaymo ride is massive.
Um, they were very careful.
They were thoughtful.
It's a very high-end experiencein taking a car.
It's a novelty.
For many consumers to actuallydo it.
Um, you know, it's kind of likea tourist attraction for people
that are visiting San Franciscoor Phoenix or la and it is a

(22:56):
great experience in the car.
And what our research has shownis that though the price is 30
to 40% higher, sometimes twotimes higher,

Ken Lucci (23:06):
Then typical Uber,

Yeah, yeah.

Ken Lucci (23:10):
Two to three times.
It can be two to three timeshigher.

It can at, at, at times because there's
very few cars, right?

Ken Lucci (23:16):
Of course, and they've gotta maximize the, the
income,

Yeah.
And they're maximizing theincome.
And what we know is that, once aconsumer is taken the ride, 70%
prefer it to being in the carwith the driver.

Ken Lucci (23:33):
You know, it's funny, I'm an old time chauffeur guy.
I started my limo company in2005 after I had retired from
the medical arm industry.
And I'll never forget, forgivethe guy that told me to get into
the limo business.
But anyway, and the biggestissue we had was the driver,
meaning if you, if you had adriver on point, he was

(23:53):
recommended.
Uh, by name five, 10 times morethan anybody else, which had its
own challenges.
But then when you had peoplethat complained about driving,
number one, it was, it wasabsolutely unsafe driving

Mm-hmm.

Ken Lucci (24:08):
you know, the braking issues or changing lanes without
blinkers because that passengerin the back is a critic.
Right.
But I was surprised how manypeople complained and said, I
don't want this driver.
And it was for non-issuesrelating to safety.
They just couldn't keep theirmouth shut.

(24:29):
They didn't practice matchingand mirroring.
And then when you looked at thesafety aspects, and I think
you'll agree, the AV companieshave done a fantastic job at
putting the safety data forward.

Yeah.

Ken Lucci (24:45):
As, as a part of their value prop, they
identified and said people aregonna question whether these
things are actually safe.
And they've had, I think it's,um, UBS did a report with, I
believe with Waymo.
So they did a research report,and I know the Autonomous
Vehicle Industry Association,which we follow, did a

(25:07):
tremendous report and thesafety.
Is it, it's the, all the datapoints point to it being
exponentially safer than a humanbeing.

They drive very slowly.
If you've taken a car,

Ken Lucci (25:19):
Right?
So, okay.
So you have

takes you forever to get from point A to
point B.
In my opinion, this is mypersonal opinion, it's not
official research, but like mypersonal opinion is it takes you
forever to get from point A topoint B, but it's a good
experience getting there.

Ken Lucci (25:33):
You know, I have, we, we deal with probably there
isn't any of the largestchauffeur networks in the
country that we don't deal with.
I mean, the phones ring off thehook with the guys that own
those companies.
And then most of the largeregionals, 20 million and above,
10 million and above.
And I really, there's a guy inPhoenix that I really admire,

(25:53):
and he's a very quiet,unassuming guy, runs a 30$40
million operation.
And he made a comment to me,'cause I said to him.
W when I went there, I asked a,I spoke in front of a bunch of,
uh, limo guys that do blacksedan, black car, and I said, is
this affecting you?
And most of them said, almostall of'em said no.
Now, then I went and took 25Uber rides, and every one of

(26:16):
them said, it's affecting us.
But the gentleman that I admiredthe most in that marketplace
said to me, it is Ken.
It, I can't put a number on it,but I'm gonna tell you something
right now.
I'd put my mother and my kids inan autonomous vehicle before I
would put them in an Uber.
And I thought that was verytelling.

(26:38):
And when you think about theaspects that the TNCs must deal
with, the human component,wouldn't you agree that's a lot
of their problems?
I mean, a lot of their issueshave, you know, when you look at
even the worst news, forgetabout data points, just the news
stories, uh, right.

Yeah.
I just wanna, I wanna drill downon the point you just made that
I would put my mother in a kidin an autonomous vehicle.
That is exactly what our surveyresearch has found.
We surveyed 5,000 consumers.
It's the largest consumer surveyon ride on avs that have, that
has been done thus far, and.
That fact is what blew our mind,that people were more willing to

(27:19):
trust an AV with their kids andwith elderly relatives or
anyone, they deemed vulnerable

Ken Lucci (27:27):
Sure.

putting it in the car with the standard
driver.
And of course we know that kidstake Ubers and they take Lyfts
and they take ride share, butthey are more comfortable doing
that.
And I thought that was a reallyfascinating fact.
Um, and that was something that.
Stood out to me the most in thedata set.
Like, you know, I knew thatthere was gonna be enthusiasm

(27:49):
and we're gonna be runninganother survey, and we're gonna
be coming out with more researchsoon.
But like, I, I knew that there'dbe enthusiasm.
I knew people would like theexperience in the car.
I, you know, I took, I took tonsof Waymo's and, and I saw it
myself.
But what I didn't expect waslike that trust factor would
just leap as, as much as it did.

Ken Lucci (28:07):
Sure.

and I think

Ken Lucci (28:09):
huge.
That's huge.
And let's take it, let's drilldown a little bit further and
look at the, the female businesstraveler.

Right,

Ken Lucci (28:17):
A female, you know, the, I think the number now is
about 42% of corporate travelis, is, is fe, they're female
and a lot of'em are femaleexecutives.
But you have female management,you have trainers, you have the
road warriors that, you know,the 20 fives to thirties.
That's the number one issue thatthey, that corporations have is

(28:39):
the safety and duty of careaspect.
That completely, that risk goescompletely away when they, when
they embrace autonomous,

Yeah, I mean, look, I definitely, I will say,
look, look like I take a ton ofride.
I've only only had issues fourtimes in that I can distinctly
remember where I literally like.
Message, like the app, likeafter the ride was over or like
was asked to get out of the, Iasked to get out of the car.
It's only happened to me threeor four times and it's never

(29:08):
been like something that's likethat.
Like whatever.
It's fine.
Um, and I think it's'cause I'min major cities and places where
they're mostly professionaldrivers, right?
Like New York, London, etcetera.
Um, but I would say like safetyis, safety is a real thing.
We saw the New York Times piecethat came out, And I think that
prioritizing safety is somethingthat, you know, we all have a

(29:29):
responsibility for.
Um, and it's something that,

Ken Lucci (29:33):
that,

it's like, if, if you take off, the element
of the car is unsafe,

Ken Lucci (29:39):
yes.
Oh, oh, it's a moving object.

right?
So the car is unsafe, but thenif you, if you remove the human
element of like, you know,feeling unsafe, it just, it
makes people far, far morecomfortable.

Ken Lucci (29:51):
And before we go any further, whatever that survey
costs, please, I'll pay for it.
Because I'm doing a, I'm doing astate of the industry, um, talk.
And one of the pieces that I'vebeen asked to, to touch upon is
avs, because I've done a deepdive on it, but I, I have a lot
of people who think, well,that's not gonna bother the
chauffeur space.

(30:12):
I disagree.
I disagree for some of thereasons you just talked about.
There is good data out therethat how it will quote, disrupt
the TNCs, meaning moving themfrom human driver over to av.
And I don't know if you followedthe announcement that, uh, Uber,

(30:34):
um, partnered with Neuro Who I'mhuge fan, huge fan of that
company even though I can't getthe CEO to come on.
Uh, that's okay.
He's busy.
And they, and they partneredwith, um, lucid to build 6,000
premium SUVs.
That was a, that was anotherbellwether to me.

(30:55):
So you just hit upon Well,consumers are gonna think
they're unsafe, they're notgonna want to use them.
No.
You Data shows the opposite.
When we, watch the traditionalTNCs.
Uh, And there was another onetoday where Lyft is doing a
similar partnership with anotherautonomous vehicle company.
When we watch the TNCs move fastinto autonomous, w what do you

(31:21):
think?
If you had a thousand ridesharedrivers out there today, how
many rideshare drivers do youthink they're gonna be in five
years in the major metropolitanareas?

it's, it's a great question.
Look like what I, I was at the,they had an urban autonomy
summit this week in New

Ken Lucci (31:38):
unhappy to meet.
Yeah.
I didn't, uh, it,

Honestly, it was the, it was, uh, it

Ken Lucci (31:43):
I.

the, it was the room of very, very
impressive people and I was veryhappy to, to be in attendance
and, um, one of the boardmembers of the Taxi and
Limousine Commission.
Pointed out that New York Cityhas as many professional drivers
as like residents in the city ofPittsburgh.
Like, you know, like, and do Ithink there's gonna be a dent

(32:05):
there?
Yeah, sure.
Like I think, I think there'llbe a dent.
We just don't know how much yetwe have seen that there's been
an impact now on driver earningsto some degree.
Um, but I think what you'repointing out is like, I think
there's a lot of wishfulthinking that the abs are just
gonna go hang out in the outerboroughs.
And pick up people there?

(32:26):
No, I mean these are expensiverides and they're luxury cars.
And it depends on the car,right?
Like it depends.
There's gonna be like an As inany Uber also started out as a
high-end service and theneventually introduced Uber X and
Lyft came out into the marketand it, and it changed the
market dynamics.
So everyone started taking thosecars.

(32:47):
And I believe that a similarthing is gonna happen where it
actually may be a high endentrant initially.
But you'll see that filter downbased on the cost of the vehicle
and you know, the competition onprice o overall.
But I do believe that it's, youknow, there was this theory
that, you know, the drivers areonly gonna be in Manhattan

(33:07):
because there's no way an AV canget through Times Square,

Ken Lucci (33:11):
Wanna

Yeah, I would, I would, I would bet
against that.
That bet, like right.

Ken Lucci (33:16):
They're mapping in Boston, Philadelphia, and New
York from, you know, my, my datapoints say is going very well,

Well, you know, I just saw Waymo come off
the Williamsburg Bridge intoBrooklyn.
I had walked the bridge and Iwas like walking on Broadway.
Saw it and I, I was like, for asecond I was like, there's no, I
was like, for a second Iactually thought there was no
one in the car.
'cause I, it was dark and Icouldn't see, and then I took a
video and I, in my video I couldsee that there was someone
there.
But the idea that just that youwere going across, if you have

(33:46):
to like know that those streets,but to go across the bridge,
come off the bridge and thenturn onto Broadway.
I mean, they are mapping it,right?

Ken Lucci (33:55):
They are.
And the, and, and so we'll getinto a tech maybe a little bit
down the road, but let, let,let's talk specifically about
the cost of the vehicle.
So we did, we've done somefinancial pro formas and, and
the brains of this company isnot me.
It's, it's, it's, my businesspartner is a degree in corporate
finance.
He is an artist with anythingExcel.

(34:16):
He can make, excel, do thingsthat the developers didn't even
think about.
So, so we just did for, for.
A, a client that has engaged usa, a review of five different AV
vehicles.
And, and, and because of that, Ihad to study the Waymo, um,
CapEx on a, taking a regularfactory.

(34:37):
Jaguar, Jaguar, um, and puttingall of their AV on it and it,
and it, and it was about165,000.
Now the funny thing is Waymo isnow shifting and, and, and it's
been public.
Uh, and Waymo's not a client,but Waymo is now experi
experimenting in Phoenix withthe Zeke, which is an a Chinese

(35:00):
SUV with seating where we'refacing each other inside the
vehicle, similar to the Zooxunit.

Yeah.

Ken Lucci (35:08):
That unit comes out of the factory at$54,000 and
they put$25,000 of AV equipmenton it.
It's an$80,000 build now.
Uh, compared to 165, I mean,they've cut it in half.
Where is it gonna be three tofive years from now?
I think that, I think that atsome point they're gonna get to

(35:29):
be commonplace and perhaps, youknow, be is even as what we're
paying for passenger cars now,it'll be AV equipped.

Right.

Ken Lucci (35:39):
So do you follow anything?
Do you follow the a AV that'sgoing on in China right now

Yeah, I read about, um, I believe it was, I
was reading more about Grab,because they did the partnership
in Singapore, but I'm blankingon the name of the company and I
can't remember if it was aChinese company or not.

Ken Lucci (35:59):
So, um, JP Morgan and Goldman did a fantastic job at,
at dissecting the current marketin China.
There are 30,000 abs.
In the top, in the top sixcities.
Don't ask me what the top sixcities are, but in the top six
cities, in the fun, the, the,what got me is they converted

(36:22):
the autonomous vehicle Industryover there is huge.
They've converted companies thatused to make cell phones that
are five football fields long,and they're pushing out these
avs and, and we've got a rereport coming out on AV similar
to that, that we'll share, butEach vehicle generates$30,000 in

(36:42):
revenue, and Goldman and JP fixthe gross profit margin, which
is where I live at, atapproaching 50%.
Now you can put a, you put a carand a driver together in a in
and you do airport service.
You're lucky to make 35% gross.
We have the data on 280 of thebiggest companies, or 280

(37:03):
companies, 35 gross.
You're humming along at 35gross, bigger equipment, you
make more money.
But my, my point is China is in,in the case of TNCs, we were at
in the ride shares.
We were at the epicenter.
I don't think we're theepicenter of avs.
I think it's China is theepicenter.

(37:24):
totally.
so talk to us a little bit aboutyour expansion plans and do you,
which, where are you gonnaexpand next?

so we have really focused on.
Sub-Saharan Africa, SouthernAfrica, Eastern Western Ghana,
South Africa, Kenya.
Um, we're looking reallystrongly.
We've done a lot of work in theEmirates now, uh, Abu Dhabi,
Dubai.
Um, we've started to expand.
India has been a big market forus the entire time.

(37:56):
Um, very quietly grown and justhuge organic growth there.
And, uh, now we're veryconsciously like, kind of
actually targeting marketingspend into Singapore, um, and
Southeast Asia.

Ken Lucci (38:10):
a lot of autonomous coming in Southeast

And I think that these markets, you know,
us, we, we just think aboutourselves a lot, but these
markets are huge.
Right.
Um, we are obviously looking atlatam, but we haven't put as
much effort into it, um, as.
You know,'cause I, I just don'tfind it as, as competitive and
large, as some of the other,these other markets.
But we're spending a lot ofmoney and time there.

(38:34):
We're looking for new providers.
There are new companies rollingout, there's a lot of investment
happening.
Um, where there, you know,there's an interest in bringing
AVS onto, onto platforms.
I just talked to a new companythat's gonna roll out in
Zimbabwe and South Africa.
That's looking to acquire avs,that's looking to acquire
drivers and wants to create anew, a new rideshare service

(38:55):
like transportation is a need.
We're more mobile than ever.
The populations of thesecountries are more mobile than
ever, and it doesn't surprise methat China's like the first.
I mean, they've been the firstin a lot of things around, um,
technology.
You know, if you, if you gointo, into these cities and for
better or for worse regulationmay or may not be hindering

(39:17):
that, that technology growth.
I think it's great that we'rebeing hyper careful and safe in
the US but we often do things ata much higher cost than we do
internationally.
I went to business school atCambridge in the uk and they had
a term that they would use therecalled Jaga, right?
And it's the idea that you havefewer resources.
So you can't build the way theWestern world builds.

(39:39):
You have to build in a morenimble, faster way and leap to
the next solution.
Right?
And I think that that's what'shappening in these markets.
So even you brought up Zoox.
I don't, is it Zoox or is itZoox?
I always call it Zoox, but.

Ken Lucci (39:52):
we, yeah, I, okay, so Zeke is the Chinese AV
manufacturer that Waymo is usingand that's SUV vs.
Being, being tested in Phoenix.
I call it Zoo X.
You're probably right, it'sprobably zoo's.
Zoo's owned by Amazon.
They built a huge manufacturingfacility to build these

(40:15):
vehicles.

Right.

Ken Lucci (40:16):
In California in Silicon Valley, and they've
deployed the vehicles in LasVegas.
Now, I don't expect you to knowthis, but the chauffeur driven
limo show is in Las Vegas everyyear.
This is the first year we'regoing to go there, and we are
gonna see those autonomous

Right, and going back and forth across,
across the

Ken Lucci (40:34):
Right?

I brought up the car because like, you know,
like it's literally like, it'sgoing back and forth, right?
It's just like literally goinglike, like this

Ken Lucci (40:42):
back.
There's no front.

There's no front.
There's no steering wheel,there's all these things, right?
And that's like, that's theidea.
Like we're we the, when you lookin a Waymo, it's built like a
traditional car.
To a degree, and the idea ofwhat these things will look
like, how many people they cantake, the w the ways that
they'll move.
I think a lot of that is likeinflux.
And as we think about urban orurban, rural and like, like, you

(41:08):
know, semi-urban environmentsglobally, the types of cars that
will succeed there are, youknow, we just don't know.
And I would tell you, havingtaken a mini bus in South
Africa, like.
Might as well be in anautonomous vehicle.
Like, you know, if, you know,like what that, what that is,
it's like, you know, you hop on,it's a private ride, there's
like a bunch of people packedin, you know, like

(41:30):
transportation is, is quitemessy all over the world.
people ride it in large numberstogether.
And if you're starting toimprove that experience and
autonomize it, there's, I meanit's, it's, it is a more than a
trillion dollar opportunity,right?
Like, you know, I think.
It's, uh, it's huge and I thinkthat a lot of cars are coming

(41:51):
out and they're gonna be doingthem far cheaper outside the us

Ken Lucci (41:56):
Yes.
And let's face it, when you'retalking about China, you're
talking about the fact that thegovernment, the regulatory is,
is.
You know, embedded with themanufacturing.
So they're going to have acompetitive advantage, not
waiting.
I was waiting for regulatory tocatch up.
very good friend of mine and I'dlove to introduce him if, if you

(42:16):
don't know him, is a gentlemannamed Matt Dawes.
And Matt Doz is the, basicallyhe is the president of the
Transportation Re RegulatorsAssociation.
He was a vice mayor in New YorkCity, I think under Giuliani,
but he was also the commissionerof Thet, the taxi authority, the
TLC and his Wendell Marks thelegal, his, his law firm.

(42:41):
They're the ones that basicallydo most of the legal
transportation, legal work.
And he said to me.
You know, we are just so farbehind on the regulatory.
We've not caught up.
I was fascinated to see thatthe, that, I think it was Tesla
got from the federal governmentbasically a, a permit to go from

(43:03):
the National Highway SafetyCouncil, or whatever it is, and
I, I should have it here, butthey were given the green light
to, to test autonomous vehiclespretty much anywhere they
wanted.

I mean.

Ken Lucci (43:18):
So, so think about what you said when the par, when
we look at that parallel, therewas a perfect parallel between
AI and av, and it's moving atthat speed and the stakeholders
are gonna continue to push it.
And I think with safety as theforefront.
What do you think it looks likein five years?

(43:39):
I mean, uh, Uber said 6,000 ofthese AV premium units are going
to be deployed in the UnitedStates in 2026.
They've committed to 20,000 ofthese units.
I mean, shoot, they gave lucid300 million.
They gave neuro 300 million, andthey committed to buy 20,000 of

(44:00):
these units.
What do you think New York lookslike?
If you, if you, if you drilldown and you say there's 14,000
yellow cabs there now, what doyou think happens in five years?

I mean, I think we're, I think you see it
in San Francisco.
Everywhere I look, you see aWaymo or a Zoox, right?
And the Zoox, obviously, they'rejust, they're testing right now,
but you see the Waymo carseverywhere.
Um, harder to spot like a Uberor Lyft to be sure.
But the point being is that the,the nature of transportation has

(44:33):
shifted and I think that inareas like New York, I think
what we're gonna see is.
A return to the pre pandemicdays, uh, where via was like a
really popular option as apublic car, right?
It's become, now it does likemore government transport, but
people used to love it, right?
Because it was a pooled ride.

(44:54):
They'd top in.

Ken Lucci (44:55):
is for the audience that

Oh, via was another ride share company, but
it did pooled rides, so it was aminivan, right?
And you could get in you verycheap.
I don't even, I mean, it waslike, what, four bucks to go
downtown?
It was very little money.
You could pop in, it took you alittle bit longer to get where
you needed to go.
It only operated in Manhattan.
Um, but it allowed people to hopon and hop off.

(45:18):
Uh, with Great East and they hadreally great mapping software so
they could get you to where youneeded to go, and multiple
people would be in the ride.
And I think that we're gonnasee, start seeing some smaller
transportation options likethat.
I think the other things that,you know, they're talking a lot
about buses and bus routes inNew York right now, the idea
that, you know, there are majorplaces to work that are well

(45:40):
outside of Manhattan that are inthe outer boroughs.
And it takes a lot of work forpeople to get there.
And I think that.
Starting to see these types ofautonomous vehicles deployed to
take, you know, six passengersat a time, eight passengers at a
time, 10 passengers at a time.
I think you'll start to see, youknow, my prediction is that, of
course we'll have the individualrides and the individual cars

(46:03):
as, as we think of ridesharenow.
But I think you're gonna see alot more pooling and the idea of
3, 4, 5, 6 people in a car, ina, or in a minivan or whatever,
whatever it's gonna look like.

Ken Lucci (46:15):
And the last mile from From transit stations to
downtown.
From downtown to Corporatecampuses.
I mean, that's another use casethat we're working on now.
Is because we have a lot ofclients in the corporate shuttle
space and there's a, an AVshuttle company whose name
shall, you know, leave it out.
But they said to us, build us amodel for 20 of these units that

(46:39):
are gonna go from the publictransit station here, here, and
here.
And we just built it, built itout where there's a cost per
mile repair, maintenance,supervision, cleaning, et
cetera, et cetera.
So you're right.
The other use case I thinkyou're gonna see even sooner is
closed campus.
and even behind the scenes atairport, because I'm getting

(47:02):
wind, that they don't like allthose people, you know, out in
the tarmac, can we really, canwe do something with avs?

Right, right.

Ken Lucci (47:12):
but I think it, I think w what we're saying is,
you know, the, there's one thingto call, and I hate this term,
this robo taxi.
Okay.
And I'm coining a term that Ifrankly hope will be on my
Wikipedia page.
Right.
And not the one I, if I pay forone, I mean a real one.

Okay.

Ken Lucci (47:29):
It to me, it's autonomous delivery.
Okay.
It's autonomous mobility.
Right.
See, we come from the, thechauffeur space.
The, origin word is livery fromthe, from the UK and Right.
But, but when people say RoboTaxii, our industry on the lu on
the luxury side, or theexecutive transportation or even

(47:52):
group and meeting will say, thatdoesn't apply to me.
And, and I say to them, guys,it's all fun and games until you
see the first RFP that says.
Give us a price for AV shuttleson our campus, for our corporate
to go for, for our employeesemployee shuttle.
So, I'm with you.
On one use case is replacementof the TNC driver or the taxi

(48:17):
driver.
I think that the, this is AV isthe death nail to taxi, I think.
I think it is.

I, I, you know, I don't, it's, it, this
conference I was at onWednesday, um, there was a lot
of like water drivers gonna donext, right?
They're like, they can be inmaintenance, they can be this.
And there was one guy, uh, fromTower Mobility and he said,
these aren't gig jobs tomaintain a fleet.
You have to have reliableworkforce that shows up at a

(48:46):
certain time and leaves at acertain

Ken Lucci (48:48):
Oh God.
I mean, no question.
And the more pa and the vehicleswith the more passenger
capacity, you go over 16, uh,they're gonna, somebody's gonna.
Send me an email.
It's either 15 or 16.
They, it's all DOT certificationand they're absolutely right.
That's where we, we built outour use cases where you have the

(49:08):
maintenance staff, you have thedetailers, you have, you know,
you have management, you havethe logistics people.
The driver is about 35, 30 to35% of the cost.
In, in, in, by reservationchauffeur.
And I know on the Rideshareside, you know, they try to, the
rideshare co companies try tokeep 70%, et cetera.

(49:31):
Um, I do wanna touch a, I wannatouch a third rail and, and, I'm
gonna do it.
I, I have a, I have a problemwith the rideshare companies.
Let's leave names out of it.
I, I, I believe that therideshare companies at certain
times have been guilty of workerexploitation.
And they exploit some of the,the, the weakest people in our

(49:54):
society that are not perhaps,you know, ling English is their
second language and they, theymay be, their skillset isn't
that, and it bothers me thatthere's, that theres been such a
problem that for them to make aliving wage, meaning I've spent
this part of my career over thepast seven years teaching

(50:14):
operators.
Here's your cost of goods.
This is what it takes to turnthe key.
This is what your labor cost is.
This is what your gross marginis.
And I, I, it bothers meimmensely, um, to, to see
advertisements for ridesharecompanies.
And they've, they've quellednow, but back then, you can

(50:35):
earn, you can make$40 an hour.
No, you can't.
That's your gross.
That's not what you keep.
Let me teach you what, let meteach you.
What you're actually going tokeep.
How does ob, how does the pricetransparency impact the driver?

You know, it's funny, I, I was speaking of
this conference I was at, theywere talking about the impact on
the driver and the idea drilldrivers can have these different
types of jobs and, you know, butwe know that driver earnings
have gone down.
Driver earnings have gone downprior to AV.
And that's from New York City,TLC data.
Like, you know, the, if you goto the TLC, you can download

(51:15):
data, um, and you can see it,you can see it through companies
like GridWise and their, theirreports, et cetera.
So

Ken Lucci (51:20):
And they're really solid reports.
They're

Yeah, I mean, the, the earnings are there, you
can see that driver earningshave, have gone down, while
prices on consumers have, havegone up.
Right.
Because, you know, there's apush towards profitability as,
as any company has aresponsibility to do to its
shareholders.
But I would also say though thatI think that the big difference
here as we think about avs isthat it speaks to a larger like

(51:45):
technology disruption.
And it's a question of like,where do people go in terms of
the types of jobs they have andwhat they're, what they're
doing.
And I think that the bigquestion we have and has not
been answered for is that like,you know, driving is one of the
biggest occupations in theUnited States and globally,
honestly.

(52:06):
Like, you know, and the rippleeffect is not just ride share
drivers, it's truck drivers,it's all kinds, all kinds of
other, other drivers overall.
Um, I do think that, you know,when we think about margins and
stuff, like there was a timewhen driving for Uber and Lyft
really was a profitableexercise, right?
But the point is the maintenanceof the car and all the things

(52:28):
and the cost of inflation andeverything else has, has

Ken Lucci (52:30):
insur and the insurance, which is insurance, a
huge issue.
Which we, we could spend a daytalking about the impact of avs
on insurance.
Some of, you know, we have a lotof people that we talked to who
are, you know, I just had, um,uh, the president in one of the
largest, four higher insurancecompanies on last week, and the

(52:51):
verdict is still out becauseinsurance companies exist on
data.
They exist on actuary, andthere's none.
On autonomous except for whatthe autonomous, and he asked me,
he said, you know, have youlooked at the data?
I said, it's pretty damn solid.
Me, even though it is so much inconjunction with Waymo, is the

(53:14):
one that put the one I'm talkingabout.
It ain't fudged.
It's safe.
It's safe.
So they, they've gotta grapplewith that.
I do think that getting back tothe drivers.
I, I don't like the gig economy.
I don't, I, it doesn't feed intothe social safety net.
It, to me it is, in some cases,it's intellectually dishonest to

(53:35):
say to someone, use your asset,by the way, an ever depreciating
asset and you are going to make,okay.
And then what happens is theytry it for 90 days, they try it
for 12 months, and at the end of12 months, they're upside down
on their vehicle.
So I'm not really unhappy tosee.

(53:57):
I think that there will be, Ithink that there will, will be a
shift, obviously, and thosedrivers won't go destitute, but
they'll go do other things justlike ai.
We're gonna have to

Yeah.

Ken Lucci (54:09):
I wanna end with.
How do we find, if I'm aconsumer, where do I go to
download the Obie app?
You've done a great job talkingabout the value.
Talk to us about, how do we geton the Obie app

So it's, it's in the Google Play Store.
It's in the app store.
You can download it, sign up.
It's super easy.
Um, test it out, give it a try.
Next time you're at the airportand you're thinking of taking a
ride share or a taxi, it's agood place to call it and use
it, uh, to compare prices and,and airports in particular is
where you're gonna see thegreatest savings.
Uh, more so, and then if you'retraveling outside the US in

(54:46):
particular, um.
It's a great option.
You know, most Americantravelers just use Uber, but
there's a lot of cheaper optionsout there if you're um, if
you're using our app,

Ken Lucci (54:58):
An ever changing landscape every single day.
And what I love about Obie isthe, is the value prop of why
wouldn't I do this?
There's no reason not to dothis.
Right, right.
And you know what, I'm justgonna throw it out there.
I think you're in a positionthat you're gonna eventually,
you're gonna keep these guys,you're gonna keep'em all honest.

(55:19):
They're gonna, I do want to, andask one question, are you
interested in having the premiumblack cars on there?
And, and

We are, we are, we would love to connect
with black car companies thatwould like to be on our
platform, especially if you haveyour own app.

Ken Lucci (55:34):
and, and, you know, you are doing by reservation, a
little bit more of a guaranteethat the vehicle's gonna be
there.
So Ash.
E Ann Baron, I apologize.
From ob, which is ride ob.com.
Thank you so much.
I know how busy you are.
E every time I connect with you,you're at a different city.

(55:54):
I really appreciate you comingon.
I have a feeling it's not gonnabe the last time.
So thank you so much for yourtime.
And listen, have a great restfulweekend and let's stay in touch.

Thank

Ken Lucci (56:07):
Thank you.

it.
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(56:28):
contact Ken, Go to drivingtransactions.com.
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