The Uber Dream: What You Make Isn't What You Keep

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DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in this episode are those of the hosts, and are based on publicly available information and personal experiences. This content is intended for informational and commentary purposes only. Uber Technologies Inc. is not affiliated with, nor does it endorse, this episode.

In this edgy episode of the Ground Transportation Podcast, Ken and James deconstruct the concept of the 'Uber Dream'—the idea that driving for rideshare companies like Uber can be a lucrative and flexible job opportunity. The discussion includes data from Uber's financial and analyst reports that highlight a significant driver attrition rate, and how many rideshare drivers are often disillusioned by the real costs of driving, such as fuel, maintenance, and depreciation, which are seldom mentioned by the companies themselves. 

Listen to this episode to hear practical advice for current and potential rideshare drivers about understanding operational costs, considering alternate business models, and evaluating the true value of their work. They also discuss the broader social and economic implications of the gig economy.

CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
03:18 History of Uber
19:01 Gig Economy
20:35 Uber's Revenue Stream
26:38 Modern Day Exploitation
30:59 The Casino Effect
35:48 The Gig Economy's Unintended Consequences on Society
41:27 You Can't Train 1099 Employees
47:01 The Application of the 401k
50:51 A Lack of Intellectual Honesty
55:36 The Massive Opportunity for Legacy Operators

At Driving Transactions, Ken Lucci and his team offer financial analysis, KPI reviews,  for specific purposes like improving profitability, enhancing the value of the enterprise business planning and buying and selling companies. So if you have any of those needs, please give us a call or check us out at www.drivingtransactions.com.

Pax Training is your  all in one solution designed to elevate your team's skills, boost passenger satisfaction, and keep your business ahead of the curve. Learn more at www.paxtraining.com/gtp

Connect with Kenneth Lucci, Principle Analyst at Driving Transactions:
https://www.drivingtransactions.com/

Connect with James Blain, President at PAX Training:
https://paxtraining.com/

Episode Transcript

James Blain (00:26):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the Ground TransportationPodcast.
Now I'm gonna share with youguys before this episode, Ken
and I were sitting here talking,figuring out kind of what we
wanted to go over and what wewanna talk about today.
And this term came intoexistence.
We call it the Uber dream.
And so we wanted to take anepisode to talk about what is
the uber dream?

(00:46):
Why do people go and drive forrideshare?
Why do you see so many of thosepeople getting in there?
And then how many of'em actuallystick?
What does that look like?
What's kinda that state?
So we thought it would be agreat episode to kind of talk
about what that looks like.
And Ken, you are the absolutestats numbers.
You have them down to a science.
So why don't we just start withthe stat that I already know you

(01:10):
have.
How many of these people thatbuy the Uber dream, I guess
we'll call it and go drive forthem?
How many of them actually staythere and keep chasing the
dream?

Ken Lucci (01:20):
Well, it is interesting to me that Uber will
tell you there's 1.5 millionpeople on their net, on their
platform, and, but when youreally drill down to it, you and
you look at their analystreports and you.
read through some of thefinancial reports that people
talk about as far as their stockis concerned.
They have a attrition problemwith their drivers.

(01:42):
That's almost 90%.
For example, a driver that, thatsi, that signed on to the signed
up for the app in Jan to be adriver in January of 2024, 90%
of them are not active Januaryof 2025.
They don't last a year.
And so they have a massiverecruiting problem.

James Blain (02:03):
Now, let

Ken Lucci (02:04):
never, it's never ending.

James Blain (02:07):
And it's funny because you know, a lot of
people tell you we've got arecruiting problem in our
industry.
But I think what we see in ourworld that's a little different
is for us it's finding them andselling them the dream, so to
speak.
The number one thing that I hearwhen I'm working with companies
is that the trouble is typicallynot getting people to stay.
It's getting people in the door,getting them to come and to want

(02:32):
to actually do that.
And I think a big part of thatand kinda the reason we came
with that term, Uber Dream, is Ithink one of the big selling
points, and I think it'srideshare in general, right, is
there seems to be this thoughtof you can make all this money,
but unlike our world, which ispredominantly an employee model

(02:52):
because of the way these guysare structured, a lot of things
that we come to deal with everyday, like fuel cost,
maintenance, cost, all thosethings.
I don't know that I've ever seenany ride share platform.
Talk about that or advertisethat, or even provide any kind
of training in there.
Have you ever seen anything likethat?
I haven't seen it.

Ken Lucci (03:13):
Okay.
So through, through throughoutthe history of business, there's
always been someone out thereselling the dream.
When I was a kid, it wasmulti-level marketing.
Okay.
When I was a dream when I was akid, it was I don't wanna
mention any names, butmulti-level marketing.

(03:33):
The first guy through the doorwas supposed to make a killing.
He was gonna make, you know,it's, it's like a pyramid
scheme, but it's all, it's,it's, and especially in the, in,
in the sales game, when you'relooking for it to be a sales
professional, it's always,there's some selling of the
dream.
There's some industry.
That's the next big thing to mewhen I look at rideshare and the

(03:54):
way they've sold it.
There's a few things that areabsolutely 100% not uh,
intellectually honest.
Okay?
You can make$30 an hour workingfor Uber, okay?
The reality is you can maybegross$30 an hour,

James Blain (04:12):
Your revenue,

Ken Lucci (04:13):
but what you take home is something completely
different.
Okay?
So the answer, to answer yourquestion, have I ever seen these
technology companies?
Have I ever seen anything whereat the end of the day, they give
the person, this is what yourfuel cost was, this is what your
vehicle cost today, this is whatyour depreciation was.
This is what your tire, yourcost tire was.

(04:35):
The answer is they don't, Okay.
If you notice when they all,when, when Uber, the TNCs came
out they all advertised bysaying, you can make x an hour.
And then they get caught.
They get caught flatfooted.
Because it wasn't true.
Okay.
First of all, they couldn't evenmake the gross an hour in many

(04:58):
areas, but by the time youfigured out what you keep it in
many cases doesn't even hitminimum wage.
So when you look at why thesedrivers sign up, I think they
sign up for the, the personalfreedom.
They sign up with the, uh, andsome of them are, I'm just gonna
say it, they are notarithmetically sophisticated.

(05:22):
They don't know math.
Okay.
So they don't know how much itcost them a day to run that
vehicle.
I, a true story guy comes to methe other day, uh, a few weeks
ago, he found us on the internetand he is like, look, I wanna
buy your financial course.
Alright?
Tell me about yourself.
Well, I'm going to get into thebusiness.
I'm, I'm buying a brand newSuburban.

(05:43):
Okay.
How much are you paying for thevehicle?
$78,000.
Okay.
What are you gonna do with it?
Well, I'm gonna do Uber black.
All Right.
First of all, do you realizethat vehicle was gonna cost you?
And I actually pulled up thenumber.
Oh, I actually talked him into a65, a used$65,000 vehicle.
Instead of that$65,000, vehiclecosts$70 a day to operate, and

(06:08):
it costs 43 cents a mile tooperate.
Okay?
So if and not to mention thefact that the average Uber car
out there does 45,000 miles ayear.
So you do about 20 to 25,000miles with passenger and
vehicle, and then you do anotherdeadhead.

(06:30):
You do at least about half thatin the deadhead.
So this guy's talking to meabout doing a 60 month loan on a
65,000.
I helped him find a usedsuburban.
And all these get to scrape downis 1600 bucks for the down
payment.
And at the end of the day, bythe second or third year, he's

(06:52):
put on so many, his warranty is,

James Blain (06:56):
Oh yeah.

Ken Lucci (06:56):
for is gone.
So when you, when they talkabout selling the dream, I think
the biggest misnomer, the dreamis how much you can make an
hour.
And people don't realize thatit's not what you make, it's
what you keep.
And the best Uber drivers thatI've talked to, and I've talked
to many of them, the best onesI've talked to, stay in a small

(07:17):
urban area, they sp stay in asmall area and they take
constant rides in that smallarea.
So what do you need?
You need massive population,Right.
You need a lot.
You, you do need a lot ofhotels.
Okay, so the ones I've seen thatmake the most are in the heavily
concentrated trafficked areas,and that's, they usually do

(07:42):
pretty well, but there are alsopeople that are driving the most
economical vehicles.

James Blain (07:49):
I think one of the smartest things I've heard
someone say is when they startedlooking at driving for ra, I
share, they sat down and theysaid, what is the most fuel
efficient and reliable vehicle Ican get?
What can I get that's gonna havethe lowest cost ownership, the
lowest cost per mile?
And I think there's somethingreally important worth
mentioning here.
Because I've got kids, right?

(08:11):
And one of the things that theschools are not doing is they're
not teaching them how to run abusiness.
They're not teaching thempersonal finances.
They're not teaching them any ofthese types of things.
You know, you brought up thenumbers earlier.
I think one of the things thatI've seen happen over and over
and over is that people that aregetting into kind of gig economy
roles, whether it be rideshareor even, you know, GrubHub or

(08:32):
anything like that, wherethey're operating as a
contractor, they don't realizethat unlike an employee, which
is being given the tools theyneed to do their job.
Every single thing that theycould possibly need that day is
being deducted from the revenuethey're bringing in.
You're running a small business,and in that case, even a micro

(08:53):
business because it's yourself.
And one of the things thatthey're doing is they're
basically putting all of thecontrol of getting it brought
in, in the hands of thatnetwork, right?
Whether it be Uber, whether itbe, GrubHub, whether it be any
of these gig economies, they'rebasically putting it in their
hands.
And I think you've really struckon something because if you

(09:14):
don't know the cost per mile, ifyou don't know what's there, you
don't know what your opportunitycost is gonna be.
And not only that, you are alsolosing, like you've said,
Deadheads, anytime they'resitting there, you know, I get
people, well, I'll just go, I'llsit in a parking lot and I'll
watch movies in between tripsand do that.

(09:35):
All right, so that's just losttime.
That's time that you could bedoing something else.
So I think, I think one of thethings that comes up for me over
and over when I talk to driversis they're looking for a way to
do and be more, but there's notreally a readily available path.
And the one I always hear is,well, I'm gonna be their premium

(09:56):
driver.
I'm gonna be their black driver.
I'm gonna be kind of in thatlevel.
I, I think in that scenario youare just stepping up into a
different section of the sameboat.
Is it, I mean, do you agree withthat,

Ken Lucci (10:10):
wait a minute, and it's a higher cost structure.

James Blain (10:13):
yeah.
They're gonna have to put inmore to, to hopefully make more

Ken Lucci (10:16):
okay.
Well, to me, that's the seconddream that Uber is selling.
Okay.
The first dream is, and, and I,I, I have to tell you I admire,
there's a, a guy that makes aliving and makes tons of money.
He owns a web site called TheRideshare Guy.
Okay.
And his name is Harry, and he'sgot a podcast, but don't go to

(10:36):
Harry's podcast, but no, onlykidding.
And he and he's got some prettygood stuff on his website, but
honestly feel he's not, again,he's he's not being, he's being
a little disingenuous.
Okay.
So, for example, I'm gonna readsomething.
How does Uber Pay drivers arepaid once a week.
Okay.
They can cash out earnings dailyfor a small fee.

(11:00):
But how is the pay broken downfor the drivers?
it's all about the term.
How much can I make?
How much can I make?
And when I look at the way theydefine it, how much does an Uber
driver make an hour in themajority of markets they can
quote, make, this is from hissite, 15 to$20 an hour.

(11:23):
No, you can't.
That may be what you take in,

James Blain (11:27):
If you could generate that much revenue.

Ken Lucci (11:30):
that's not what you take home.
It's like the guy that, that,it's like even on the chauffeur
side, when someone has$150 rideand they say, I made$150 today.
No, you didn't.
'cause 70% of that goes to cost,just the direct cost to operate
in the case of, of the Ubervehicle.

(11:50):
Okay.
Again, depending upon the caryou're talking about an
operating cost of the vehicle,maintenance and fuel.
Maintenance and fuel alone isabout 43 cents a mile.
Okay?
So if you are, if you buy intothe first dream, which is, I'm
gonna go work for Uber because Ican make$30 an hour.

(12:12):
Well, no, you, no, you can't.
You can book$30 an hour, but atthe end of the week, after you
pay all your fuel, all of yourmaintenance, all of your tires,
right?
All of this stuff, the cost ofyour vehicle averages about five
bucks, seven bucks an hour,right?
And if it's a luxury vehicle,it, could be eight bucks an

(12:33):
hour, so the, the first dream isI'm gonna make 25,$30 an hour.
The second dream, now that I'min, I'm not making money.
It's almost like a, it's almostlike, a get rich quick scheme.
All I need to do is put moremoney in.
All I need to do is put moremoney in and I'm gonna get a
return.
You know what?
I'm not gonna be a regular Uberor Uber X driver.

(12:56):
I'm gonna be an Uber blackdriver.
So they go out and they get intodebt, they get on the platform
with their own vehicle.
The second thing they do is, no,you know what?
I'm gonna be an Uber blackdriver.
This is what happened during thepandemic to a lot of the
chauffeurs that were in ourindustry that got laid off.
That's where you see all of theiOS in our industry.

(13:17):
Many of them were ex shoppersthat worked pre pandemic, or now
they're a one car operator andthey're working for multiple
platforms.
So, if I had, if I had to giveany Uber driver advice, first of
all, if you are using your owncar and you get a loan on it,
congratulations.
You're gonna be upside down onthat vehicle, probably halfway

(13:40):
through your loan.
You just, you're killing yourcar because the average, and
just look this stuff up online.
The average person drives theircar 18,000 miles a year.
For their regular stuff, theirregular back and forth to work.
But the average Uber driverdrives at 45,000 miles.

James Blain (13:57):
Well, but think about it, limos turn over at
what?
200?

Ken Lucci (14:01):
right?
You're killing a depreciate.
Say that again.

James Blain (14:03):
I said if you take a limo, when, when we think of
a, you know, we think of an SUVor something in a limo 200, you
know, 200,000 miles.
We don't flinch at that.
Right.
Because you are running thatback forth all the time.
And it's, it's mindset.
Just like you're talking abouthere.
Because one of the things that Ihear and I, you know, I
obviously, I always try tosupport our industry, but I love

(14:25):
talking to people that are anUber because a lot of them are
just looking for a way in.
The two things I see most oftenis the idea of scaling that's
sold to them is not the idea ofscaling.
That we think about where you'rebuying more vehicles, you're
bringing on employees.
For example, I talk to peopleall the, I dunno what it is on
the west coast.
I don't know what it is out inCalifornia, but if you, it seems

(14:48):
like if you ride with anybodythat has a Tesla and any kind of
ride share, they are in a rentalprogram.
It's not even a lease, it's nota purchase, it's a literal
rental car and they're payinglike 500 I think.
And, and these numbers could beoutdated, but the last I heard
it was 500 a week, right?
So they're paying$2,000 a monthto rent a vehicle that they're

(15:12):
not getting any kind of equityanything in at all.
And they're paying$2,000 a monthto drive around in a vehicle
that they're renting to thendrive on ride share.
Then what's interesting, and I,again, I don't have any way to
to verify this, Ken.
You might know, but what I wastold is that's coming out of
their paycheck,

Ken Lucci (15:33):
Yeah.
It's

James Blain (15:34):
that gets Yeah, it's automatically pulled out.
So any work they're doing, it'sdeducted outta that paycheck and
then they're getting what's leftover after paying to rent that
vehicle and do that work

Ken Lucci (15:46):
it, doesn't make any sense.
And when, and again, if you area micro business, and the most
important thing you can be as amicro business is know all of
your costs, your hard costs foryour vehicles, your variable
costs for maintenance and fuel,and et cetera, et cetera, right?
And then you hit upon somethingthat's crucial is opportunity

(16:08):
cost, right?
So you get a driver, let, let mejust throw some numbers out here
that are on this ride sharesite.
They use an example, a 26 minuteride that pays$7 and 28 cents or
28 cents a mile, 28 cents aminute, rather, you know, at the
end of the day, it's, a, I'msorry, 26 minute ride, 28 cents

(16:30):
a minute, 8.5 miles, pays 80cents a mile.
I just told you that the averagevehicle costs 40 to.
40 to 50 cents a mile tooperate.
So when you look at what you'rebeing paid, if I'm an Uber
driver, what I want to know isthe numbers I've talked about,
but you can find calculatorsonline all day long that will

(16:51):
tell you, if I'm driving aToyota Prius, what is it gonna
cost me per mile to operate it?
And what is it gonna cost me peryear, et cetera.
You could do all these things.
I mean, we have a calculatorthat's in our course that I help
this guy with, and when I put itinto the context of once you pay

(17:13):
all of your expenses from thevehicle that you've got a loan
on, you are really almost,you're, you're talking about
minimum wage, maybe you'retalking about making as much as
$20 an hour.
Okay, well that's for the timethat you have somebody in the
vehicle.

(17:33):
You hit upon opportunity, costor downtime.
Is your time not worth anythingwhen you are sitting waiting?
Or is your time not worthanything when you're driving
empty?
On Facebook, I follow the, a lotof the Uber forums and I see a
trip from Boston, Massachusettsto New York,$280 or$270 or

(17:57):
whatever, and someone will takeit.
Okay, Now?
you've gotta get back.
So you've got 10 hours.
So you've got five, six hoursdown, five, six hours back.
Okay?
Two 70 is not divided by five,it's divided by 10.
It's, or even divided by 12 ifyou get caught in traffic.

(18:19):
So when you subtract outeverything that you've, all of
your costs plus your opportunitycosts, you're lucky if you're
making minimum wage.

James Blain (18:30):
And I think, I think one of the things that
surprises me, and we see it overand over is there's a big push
towards the gig economy, right?
I'm so tired of that term.
I'm so sick of that term.
We hear about all the time onthe news, we hear about all the
time in social media is the gigeconomy, right?
You can get anything deliveredby anyone, right?
A magic stranger from theinternet will bring you.
You know what, if you are thatmagic stranger though, there is

(18:52):
no one out there.
That is on the side of thehiring for the gig economy that
is at those companies.
That is in a rush to break itdown for you.
The way we're breaking it downhere, they're not in a big rush
to tell you that.
And it's, I see this all thetime and it's kinda my favorite
things.
I got an email the other day,right?
I started playing golf and I gotan email the other day and it
said, you can get this golf gearas low as this price, and it had

(19:16):
this incredibly low price fromlike, there's no way you click
on it and what happens, right?
That is like the stripped down,like you're never gonna actually
buy that.
But the typical version you'dbuy and use all of a sudden is
like twice as expensive.
But they had a really cheapversion to compare it to so they
could be like, it's so cheap.
And I think what we see a lot oftimes is that kind of comes back

(19:37):
to that dream.
We see this, Hey, you've gotthis opportunity to make all
this money.
Well, yeah, you make all that.

Ken Lucci (19:44):
$30 an hour.
That's, and that's the, that'sthe fucking problem I have with
the TNCs.
It's not, don't tell me, don'tadvertise for drivers and tell
me what You can make.
Okay?
'cause it's not true.

James Blain (20:01):
No, it's revenue.

Ken Lucci (20:03):
No, no.
We make the revenue We make therevenue.
By the way, that revenue hitstheir top line.
They take out their share, theircommission, their everything.
And your take home is this.
But guess what?
You gotta pay for your gas, yougotta pay for your insurance,
you gotta pay for the vehicle,you gotta pay for all of these

(20:23):
things that you really don'tknow.
You don't have it written, youdon't have it written out.
The best drivers, Uber drivers Iknow are ex-business people.
They're retired people, okay?
They're retired people.
They know their cost to a penny,down to the penny, and most of
them drive.
He, I met a guy, guy down inTampa that he was saying Uber's

(20:44):
trying to push them intoelectric vehicles.
And he said, the problem is whenthe batteries are using the most
juice, the most power, when thevehicle is sitting and the air
conditioning is going, he saysit doesn't work.
So he picked me up on a hybridand the biggest issue he had
with the hybrid true story, itwas eight months old and had

(21:08):
31,000 miles on it.

James Blain (21:11):
Yeah.

Ken Lucci (21:12):
it was brand new, but it was eight months old.
The warranty was already gone onit.
Okay.
So no, if, if I had any advice,look, trust me when I tell you,
there are certain days where Iget aggravated, I'm like, I'm
just gonna be an Uber driver.
I don't give a shit.
I just, I don't give a shit.
But I, but if it were me, okay,I would investigate the rental,

(21:32):
the rental programs that are outthere and I would, before I did
anything, I would do what I calla turn, the key break even how
much revenue, knowing whatUber's take is, which is another
story we'll get into.
How much do I wanna make tobreak even on this rental,

(21:54):
right?
And the problem I see with theTNCs is in order to really make
some decent money, you gotta beon the road 12, 14 hours a day,

James Blain (22:02):
Yeah.

Ken Lucci (22:03):
James.
We come from an industry whereU-S-D-O-T tells us, what, how
many hours

James Blain (22:07):
That's not even, yeah.
10 hours.
It's not even legal.
It's not even legal.
You try to do,

Ken Lucci (22:12):
wait a minute,

James Blain (22:13):
done.

Ken Lucci (22:14):
right?
But wait a minute, this is what,this is what gets me 12 to 14
hours a day.
And every, when I ask an Uberdriver, and I really, and I
follow the ones that make themost money are those people that
are working 12, 14 hours a day.
The problem I have with the TNCsis if it's so good, why can't,
why do you constantly have tochange the comp plan?

James Blain (22:37):
Wow.

Ken Lucci (22:37):
do you have to play the shell game on what, what,
okay.
What you're making, et cetera.
And it's a race to the bottombecause most people that I know
have both apps and they're duallapping leave, no leave names
out of it.
And the car that can get there,the first one is the one that
they'll go with.

(22:57):
Okay?
So at

James Blain (22:58):
the, drivers are doing the same thing.
The drivers have'em both openand whoever gives'em the trip
first is who they're right.
I've been in, look, I've seenguys that have two phones in the
vehicle and the problem thatthey have and, and this is one
of the big important things,right?
If you start looking at, I washaving a conversation with
someone the other night and itrevolved around DUIs and the
number of DUIs and all thatthing.

(23:19):
And one of the things theybrought up is if you're old
enough to remember a pre-Ubertime, right?
And the conversation went alittle like this.
You know, our kids haveconvenience.
They can call, they can get acheap ride, they can get home.
Back in the day, if you were ina place that wasn't a huge taxi,
having city, you could call ataxi and they might not come.

(23:42):
You call a taxi and you can getabsolutely gouged.
Or you might be somewhere wherethat's not even an option,
right?
Even if you called, they're notshowing up.
And now we have this new magicalthing where I can summon people
from the internet to come driveme at a super low cost.
And the only reason that worksis because you have the app,
they have the control, they haveeverything there.

(24:03):
So if you are driving for them,it now becomes your beholden to
them and their network.
But the thing that's worthnoting is on the passenger side,
the convenience and ability todo it is what typically makes it
worthwhile.
Look, if you walk out of a bar,if you walk outta a restaurant
and you want to go to the otherside of town and you wanna do it

(24:24):
right that second, it is veryhard to fight the convenience of

Ken Lucci (24:28):
No, you can't.

James Blain (24:29):
Internet.
You can't beat that,

Ken Lucci (24:31):
Look, I was in business.
I was in business when Uber asan operator.
When Uber came to Tampa Bay andI, some of my best, I didn't
have many, many friends on thelimo side, but some of my best
friends were on the taxi sideand I had some good friends and
they said, look, contribute somemoney'cause we're gonna fight
this.
I'm like, guys, I'll give yousome money.

(24:52):
I have no problem with it, butyou're not gonna fight it.
And a very good friend of minedown there, his name is Brooke,
right?
Owned a, a black car service inTampa before any Uber came.
And he was really, did reallywell with his black car service.
And when Uber came in it killedhim over time.
I mean, he's still in business,but the business is not anywhere

(25:13):
near it was.
But I remember when we weretrying to kill it, all of the
politicians, when you looked attheir phone, they had the Uber
app on there.
Uber was smart.
They went to the lobbyists.
First of all, they said, fuckyou to the regulations, okay?
Because in Tampa, Tampa Bay hada regulatory system that was

(25:34):
pretty interesting.
It was its own little fiefdom.
But they came in for the firstyear and they basically ignored
the regulators.
They ignored the regulators inTampa, the transportation
authority had guns.
They were all retired cops andthey were working on their
second pension, and the onlyones that they bothered were the

(25:56):
ones that had the licenses.
Okay.
So Uber was smart.
They hired lobbyists.
Okay.
The, besides, I firmly, and I'llmake a statement, I firmly
believe that Uber is modern dayworker exploitation.
Okay?
They prey on the English is thesecond language, okay?
They prey on people by saying,this is what you can make,

(26:19):
right?
They have, there's literallynothing to help a driver
understand what his true costsare.
Okay.
You think I, we go through it.
Now in our industry withoperators that are million
dollar, 2 million,$3 millionoperators that don't look at
their financials, at least mostof those guys have accountants
that slap'em around at the endof the year.

(26:41):
But if you notice on, on, if younotice the TNCs and how they
advertise, you know, when theylose a lot of drivers tax
season,

James Blain (26:51):
Yeah,

Ken Lucci (26:52):
okay?
because the day of reckoning is

James Blain (26:54):
because it

Ken Lucci (26:54):
okay, well, wait a minute.
I made this and I didn't, Ididn't track, I didn't track any
of my mileage.
There's a couple of peopletrying to help.
It's like a cottage industry ofpeople that do it But you would
think the TNCs would do that foryou.
Okay, here's where you shoulddeduct your fuel.
Here's where you should deductyour oil.
The worst the worst thing is,it's like anything in life.

(27:17):
If everything goes right, youmight be able to make money as
an Uber driver, okay?
But what happens when you getinto your first accident?
I, I see it on Facebook all thetime, and I listen to these
drivers, right?
The app insurance covers youwhen you're on your way to a
ride and when you're, when youhave the passenger in the

(27:40):
vehicle, okay?

James Blain (27:41):
the deadhead.

Ken Lucci (27:42):
not the deadhead.
So when you're on your way,correct, if you haven't engaged
in another trip, you're notcovered.
The other piece of the puzzle isthe insurance companies are
getting smart now.
So if you're hit by an Uber car,right?
They are really making itdifficult when it comes to it's
not mitigation, sub subrogation.

(28:03):
So at, at the end of the day,it's all fun and games until,
number one, you have an accidentand you can't afford to pay the
deductible, right?
Because you are not making$30 anhour.
And the second is you starthaving a major issue after
warranty.
I know a lot of people that,that they can't afford to fix
their cars,

James Blain (28:23):
But I think it's bigger than this though.
Right?
And I, I see it, you know, wesaw it with, even with Walmart,
when Walmart tried to get theiremployees to do home deliveries
in their own vehicle, it, we areseeing this as, and, and I see
it beyond kind of our scope asthe whole gig economy, right?
Because in addition to Ubers,you've got your Grubhubs, right?

(28:44):
'cause now we have food that canbrought, we get deliveries.
You get, yeah.
I think that one of the bigthings that we're seeing happen
is that, I think that wasrideshare was just kind of the,
the person that put their footin that door.
And now companies are trying tosee how far they can push that
and how they can do it.

Ken Lucci (29:01):
How far they could push the envelope.

James Blain (29:03):
Exactly.
And look, you know, I will sharewhen I was in high school,
right?
Some of you argue it wasn't thatlong ago, but back when I was in
high school, right?
We're talking 20 years ago, Ihad a job and I was working for
a, a subcontractor to CapitalOne on the collection side.
And the whole thing there was,we would get credit cards that
would come through and thatcredit card would have a

(29:24):
thousand dollars balance, but itwould have a$200 credit limit on
it.
And that's because the secondyou hit that$200 credit limit,
you got a over your, alright,well, you hit your credit limit.
Now you get an over the limitfee.
You don't pay it, you don't payit all the way down.
You're not below your limit.
Now you're gonna get a fee everymonth that you're behind.
Now your interest skyrockets.
The next thing you know, you'vegot these thousand dollars

(29:46):
credit cards with$200 limits andthey're collecting on them.
Well, what has to happen?
Eventually it gets so bad thatthe government steps in and
says, hey.
You guys have gotta chill thisout.
This makes no sense.
You're giving people$200 creditlimits and then you're going
after them for a thousanddollars balances When you let
them go$10,$20,$30 over thecredit limit and get into this

(30:10):
place that they're at.
I think we're at a point withthe gig economy where no one has
stepped in yet.
But I think we're starting tosee the same kind of snowball.
And the difference here is thatunlike that credit and
collections industry, where onceyou get to that a thousand
dollars balance, they'reactively chasing you.
What we see happen here is moreof a casino effect.

(30:32):
You see someone that gets intothe gig economy, they're super
excited, they're gonna make abunch of money, they're gonna
rent the car, they're gonna dothis, they're gonna do that.
They go in thinking they'regonna hit the jackpot.
They get drained.
They walk out penniless,shirtless and they've, you know,
they've lost money on it andthey move on to the next thing.
But there's not a lot there.
And I think one of the importantthings that's worth noting is

(30:55):
from kind of the side of peoplethat are wanting to start a
business and do it as a careerand those types of things, a lot
of them don't realize thatbecause of the fact that you're
on the Uber side, Uber'scontrolling all of the demand.
And it doesn't have to be Uber,right.
It can be whatever gig economyrole you're in, it is going to
be really difficult when you'reused to having all that given to

(31:18):
you to then have to transitionout.
And I've

Ken Lucci (31:21):
So now wait

James Blain (31:21):
both sides.

Ken Lucci (31:22):
Wait a minute.
Let's talk about this Let's talkabout the other side of the
coin.
So I want to touch upon twothings.
One is, remind me is for theunforeseen consequences of on
the economy in society.
But first I'm gonna talk about,so this is a really good segue
for those of You.
who could see us on YouTube, I'mwho can't see us on YouTube.

(31:45):
I'm holding up the business cardof a driver.
This driver's name is Gerardo.
I won't say his last name.
And he's got an 8 1 3 area code.
Last time I was in Tampa, he wasan Uber driver who handed me his
business card.
And his business card saysdriver guide.
Okay, now he said flat out, howlong you to be here?

(32:08):
I'm gonna be here for five days.
You're staying at theInternational Mall.
Listen, I'm always around theair.
If you need me, call me.
Okay?
Here's the fucking problem withthat.
When I hire him and pay himcash, and he said I'll give you
a better cash rate.
Here's the problem with that.
When he, I take that ride and Ipay him cash, guess what?
He's not on the app.
Guess what's not covered?

(32:29):
His insurance.
This, the insurance is notcovered.
Okay?
You know the law been un, thelaw of unintended consequences
with the TNCs and the gigeconomy will be studied years
from now.
Okay?
We saw a little bit of it duringthe pandemic when none of the
people that were driving for gigor in gig economy could get any

(32:50):
PPP money and then that had tobe dealt with.
But here's the problem.
Listen, I firmly believe Uber,Uber at all, as they say, but at
all, John, you gotta believesome of these F bombs out.
This is a tough

James Blain (33:05):
Feisty today,

Ken Lucci (33:06):
you, tough subjects for me today.
I firmly believe that they coulddouble their prices, and they
would still have the same amountof trips that they have.
Their bottom line would be muchmore their top line, which they
all covet.
Okay?
If I told you the bottom linethat, Uber's bottom line without

(33:29):
adjusted gap adjustments,non-GAAP, non-gap accounting,
it's, it throws tiny bits ofpennies on the bottom line.
Okay?
I submit to you they coulddouble their rates.
They still would have, theywould have more revenue.
They would actually be able topay their drivers a living wage

(33:52):
and they'd, they'd make moremoney.
Okay.
But you know what?
They lack the fortitude to doit.
They're in love with the topline revenue.
They're in love with the withtheir quarterly reports.
All of the executives are,incentivized on growth.
Okay?
Because we're, we are over 10years into this and we into the

(34:14):
gig economy, and you are 100%right?
Uber started it by calling itthe shared economy, the sharing
economy.
Okay?
Until some of the, until thefirst two or three studies came
out that said.
Oh, the sharing economy isactually helping global warming.

(34:34):
It's reducing the carbonfootprint.
Until the first studies came outand said, wait a minute, the
average u the average person hasputs 18,000 miles on their
vehicle.
The average Uber driver puts45,000 on it.
You're actually not, you'reactually making carbon footprint
worse.
Okay?
So they changed it to the wordgig, okay?

(34:57):
And the problem with the gigeconomy is the unintended
consequences on society.
We saw a little bit about itduring the pandemic.
These, there's no benefits tothese people.
These people are not feeding theunemployment system, okay?
They're not feedingunemployment.
They're not feeding their socialsecurity if they're not smart
enough to figure out their cost.
'cause nobody's really tellingthem on it, Okay.

(35:20):
They're not feeding theirretirement, they're just gonna
go off to the next thing.
The worst thing is if they gethurt.
If they really get hurt they'reshit outta luck.
So the overall cost on societyincludes not paying into the
social safety net.
That's number one.
Number two, with with, I firmlybelieve that it's, it's it, and

(35:43):
this is a study that'll probablynever be done, but I think the
TNCs actually make thecongestion and the throwaway
vehicles even worse.
It's cutting down the life cycleof vehicles and there's more, if
you look at the junk business isbooming.
The other piece of this puzzlethat's gonna come up, they're
all pushing EVs.

(36:03):
What's gonna happen to these EVbatteries?
What's gonna happen to thebatteries?
You know, but, but here's thereason why I doubt it'll get
fixed.
The lobbyists and liberals lovecheap trips.

James Blain (36:16):
But I think it's deeper than that, Ken.
Because one of the things, andI, I don't want to take us too
far off the rails, but the gigeconomy has permeated beyond our
industry.
You know, obviously the Ubergets thrown around, you know,
Lyft, all these, all these, allthe TNC names Yeah.
Fiverr is a gig economy.
I will tell you what, so I havea, so I have a family member, I

(36:38):
won't out her and, and see whoit was, but she has some Airbnbs
and she went and she bought someappliances for them from a
reputable big brand name store,right?
Reputable, big brand name store.
And they were set to bedelivered.
She gets a call from thedelivery guy and all of a sudden
a sheriff is talking on thephone.

(36:58):
The delivery guy was pulledover.
The sheriff said, no, he won'tbe coming in.
What happened?
They had used a gig economy typeapp, and apparently what they
did at that big box store isthey would put out on the app
that there needed to be adelivery.
Someone would then accept it,sound familiar, they'd accept
the trip, they'd come pick itup, they'd make the delivery.

(37:18):
Well, guess what, as we've seenhappen before.
Background checks weren't doneright.
It was a stolen Ryder truck withno lease, no nothing.
They had stolen the truck.
They were using the delivery ascover.
So they were doing deliveries tocover their movement in the
stolen truck, full of drugs,full of guns.

(37:38):
And thank God it just happenedto be a small town delivery and
they got pulled over, or itliterally would've been her
alone with them at her housegetting a quote unquote delivery
with a truck full of guns anddrugs.
Now is that common?
No, probably not common, but thepoint here being this gig

(37:58):
economy idea of we can take thiswork that we would before have
to have our own trucks and ourown drivers and pay them and
take care of that.
This idea is now I've got areally low cost, high
convenience thing.
I've got a delivery today.
I can get on the app, I can putit out.
Someone will come get it,someone will do it.
It's the exact same model thatwe're seeing and it's the exact

(38:21):
reason that companies likeWalmart were so successful.
When I was growing up, the bigdeal is everybody was mad at
Walmart'cause they were puttingmom and pop outta business.
Guess what?
Their prices were way cheaper.
They had everything in oneplace.
It was super convenient.
People were willing to acceptthe hit in quality and the fact
that it's a lower qualityproduct.

(38:43):
Because of that, we're seeingthe same thing play out through

Ken Lucci (38:47):
But there's a big difference though.
Walmart is paying their, theirpeople as employees.
Okay.
And I know if I, if I choose towork at Walmart and, you know,
seeing the, the all of humanitywalk through the door, I know
I'm getting paid X amount ofdollars.
Okay.
And the risk I took, I, there'sno expense to me to do that

(39:07):
work, except driving from myhouse to the Walmart parking
lot.
The problem I have is using myassets, using my expenses, using
everything, and not beingtruthful, if you will, about
what I'm going to make.
The, to me, if the biggest issueis to me is if it was such that

(39:32):
you could make even$20 an hour,why are they fighting paying
minimum, minimum wage in cities?
W why are they fighting it andwhy?
I, I mean, listen, don't get mewrong.
They, you have deep discounts onoil changes.
You have deep discounts ontires.
They're trying as best as theypossibly can, but it's the

(39:53):
unsophisticated driverunsophisticated person that
takes his means of conveyanceand runs it into the ground so
that.
Uber's, CEO can make X amount ofdollars.
It's not, to me it's, it's,there's no win-win there.
It's a hooray for me and it's ahooray for me.

(40:15):
And screw you.
It's the reason why they, theyconstantly have to constantly
have to recruit and train and Idon't know where it's

James Blain (40:24):
But wait, they can't train.
You bring up a very fun aspect.
Right.
And but it's funny'cause if youteed us up, you actually, you
must have been reading my mindover here because the other
cost, and this is one that nevergets talked about, is that they
can't actually train drivers.
Because of the fact that theseare 10 99 employees, they're

Ken Lucci (40:43):
Correct.
they can't control a

James Blain (40:45):
control or direct.
So the problem with that becomesnow you have someone that they
cannot actually directly train.
Well, what does that mean in ourworld?
Most importantly and biggest forme, defensive driving and
actually spending that much timeon the road and not having
safety training.

Ken Lucci (41:03):
Safety, it's a hundred percent.

James Blain (41:05):
It is I and I, it's so hard to get people to
understand, look, when you'redriving to work, when you're
driving to school, when you'redriving to go get groceries,
when you're doing all thesethings, you're at risk.
Your risk of having an accidentis there.
The easiest way to increase easeany kind of risk is to increase

(41:26):
time doing the risky behavior.
The more time you spend driving,the higher your chances of an
accident.
How do you mitigate that?
In our world, how do we mitigatethat with customers?
My whole life, my whole careerhas revolved around if we know
we're engaged in spending moretime on the road than anyone
else, we have to have themengaged in doing more training

(41:47):
and making them more aware andbetter drivers than anyone else
in the road.
You can't do that in any kind ofgig economy role.
Why?
Because you can't direct them todo training.
You can't force them to doongoing training.
You can't do that because nowall of a sudden you get an
employee territory.
All of this, before we even talkabout.
Customer service, customerinteraction.

(42:08):
And guess what?
If you're on the lower end ofUber and you're dealing with the
cheaper rides, now you havedisruptive, drunk, unruly
passengers.
Guess what?
Can't have training on how todeal with that either because a
10 99 you're not able to dothat.
There's so many things that comeup.

Ken Lucci (42:25):
no.
People are like, well, they'relistening to this.
And they're like I already knowhow to drive.
You know?
It's a lot different.
You driving yourself versusbeing in control and in charge
of, of human, other human livesand passengers.
Where was I traveling?
I was traveling up to Boston todo a Yeah, I was with you.
I was doing the TTA thing, so Iwas

James Blain (42:45):
house.

Ken Lucci (42:46):
up.
And when I got off the highwayin front of me, there's, I could
see it was an Uber driver.
'cause there was one driver, onethe driver was in the front and
there were, there was one personin the back.
He literally disembarked thepassenger in traffic.
He disembarked the passenger.
He disembarked the passenger atthe red light.

(43:06):
Okay.
But here's the problem.
There was a right lane.
Okay?
He was in the middle.
There was a right lane.
The passenger opened up the doorand there was a car going by.
It's stuff like that that, itmay be a little thing, but in
your, when you're in thechauffeur space, point blank.
I cannot and under anycircumstances, disembark you

(43:28):
into traffic.
Okay?
Nevermind.
If you have two passengers inthe back, one opens up.
the door into traffic.
What's your job as the driverstop that from happening?
Always disembark on the curb.
I think that at the end of theday, the problem that we have
here with the TNC model, whichis actually pretty perplexing to

(43:49):
me because when you look back atthe industrial revolution in the
country, and I'm a his half-asshistorian, you know, they had
child labor laws, right?
They had the growth of unionsto, they had the child labor
laws that basically said, no,they've gotta be under over 16
or over 18, and in some casesover 21 if they're working

(44:09):
around machinery.
And then they had basicallyunions to give you the eight
hour work week, 40 hour, excuseme, eight hour work day, 40 hour
work week.
And it really protected and gavebirth to the middle class of
America.
It really did.
Okay so my question to you is.

(44:30):
Where do we go from here in thegig economy when I don't have a
W2?
And you and I both, we've hadthis discussion.
It costs more money to borrowwhen you don't have a W2 drive,
a Don W2 job.
Okay?
E even in, in my case, I don'thave any loans, but, the end of
the year, I'm taking down 15,20, 30, 10 90 nines to my tax

(44:52):
guy, right?
So where do we go with peoplethat don't have W2 income that's
predictable and for them toactually have a personal
positive personal balance sheet?
How did they save money?
How did they possibly have theability to buy a house?
I submit to you that, you know,there's the, there's a lower

(45:15):
working class in the countrythat are doing these gig jobs
that will, and sadly a lot of'emare first generation into.
Country.
And some of them may even beillegal, but they're minorities.
And I think It's totally takingadvantage.
And I think as a society, I,have a real problem with it.
To me it's just like child laborlaws.
It's just like the factoryworkers that back in the day

(45:37):
were working 16, 18 hours, daysand losing an arm because they
fell asleep on the assemblyline.
So what do you do?

James Blain (45:46):
but a lot of this is application of the rules,
right?
You know, if you start, if youwanna talk about historian,
right?
If you go back and you look atthe 401k.
401k is actually named after asection of the tax code.
It's not a random numberedletter.
401k is a section of the taxcode that allowed for the
creation of a 401k when they putthat together, right?

(46:08):
If you go watch the interviewswith the guy that was
responsible for that, his planwas not that we would get rid of
pensions in the country and thatwe would all be responsible for
having our own part that we'reputting into, we're basically
taking our retirement in our ownhands.
That was not the point.
That was not what he was tryingto do.
That's the application of whathappened as a result of that

(46:30):
section of tax code.
And I think if you start lookingback, you know, one of the
things that comes up when, youknow I think of hairdressers,
right?
A lot of hairdressers have been10 90 nines forever, right?
They rent a chair.
That's not new.
What we're seeing, and I thinkwhat's happened here is you have
an explosion in 10 90 nines.

Ken Lucci (46:50):
In Every industry.
Yeah.

James Blain (46:51):
industry.
I would love to see some sort ofeducation on that.
Right?
And this is, if any of therideshare people are listening
or any of the gig economy,people are listening, look, you
can say, Hey, you can make up tothis, but you need to take out
and say, Hey, this is arealistic take home.
And then as part of youronboarding, you need to direct
them to resources and say, Hey,you know, you're, you're gonna

(47:13):
be working with us.
You're gonna be a 10 99 for us.
That's great.
Here's a resource that's gonnahelp you manage your numbers.
Here's a resource that's gonnahelp you actually take care of
yourself.
Because one of the things Ilearned early on, I mentioned,
back in the day, I worked in thecredit and a collection industry
as a kid in high school.
The very few of those companieswere set up to where they wanted

(47:34):
to retain people.
It was a revolving door industrywhere they would just fill
seats, right?
Nobody wants to call and tellsomebody

Ken Lucci (47:41):
And, and how, I mean, how, how long can you do that
without it wearing on

James Blain (47:46):
And that's the kind of where I'm going is I think
we're at a point where you haveto figure that out.
The other thing, and I, I thinkthis is where I have seen the
association step up.
I have seen, you know, obviouslyyourself, myself I think there
is a subset of people thatthey're looking at Uber as a

(48:07):
job, and that's probably themajority of them are saying,
Hey, I want a job where I canturn the app on.
I can set my own hours, I canwork when I want, when I make
money, when I want, I do it allon my time.
That's super appealing, but Ithink you probably have a small
subset of that, right?
Maybe 10% that are saying, Hey,this might be where I started,
but I want to have my own fleet.

(48:28):
I want to have my own company.
I want to do my own thing now.
Sorry, ride share companies.
I know you don't want that.
I know that's not your dream,right?
I know That's not who you want.
You don't want the competition,you don't want that.
But I think having people.
Able to find resources liketheir local state associations,
like the National LimousineAssociation places that they can

(48:51):
go learn what it's gonna take tomake that leap and if they wanna
do it, are huge.
I know, and this is a hot topicbutton, there's been discussion
of unionizing within the rideshare companies and trying to
set up unions and trying to dothose types of things.
And heck, at one point, youknow, Starbucks has had, there
are certain places where there'sunions even for baristas in

(49:14):
Starbucks because, you know, theconditions were getting to a
point where it didn't makesense.
And the point of the union is toprotect the employee, to protect
the worker in this case ifyou're not an employee.
But I think what we really haveto find is how do you find that
happy medium where you're ableto get it done?
And

Ken Lucci (49:32):
Let me tell you where it starts.
Let me tell you where it starts.
It starts with intellectualhonesty on the behalf of the
people that run Uber by saying,look, you're driving a Toyota
Prius.
This is what it costs to operatethat vehicle.
This is what we're gonna chargefor rides.
The, these, the ride, the costof these rides is actually it's

(49:53):
actually insulting.
Okay.
It's to the driver.
It, it just, you, when I lookat, even at, when I look at, um,
the ride share guy, oh.
They're paying X number, 78cents a minute, uh, uh, 78 cents
a mile.
Intellectual honesty would say,if you're doing this, this, and

(50:13):
this, your Toyota Prius iscosting you X to operate.
Okay?
YY amount of time.
Deadheading, it would beintellectual honesty.
I mean, we are past the pointwhere the apps are cool.
The everything is an app now,okay, if, if.

(50:34):
I think I hate to say it, butthe executives at Uber have
theirs.
They're getting paid disgustingamounts of money.
You wanna talk about incomeinequality, A OC.
Okay?
That's where it is.
But intellectual honesty wouldbe, we're not going to charge,
and we're not gonna be in abidding war with the other,
right?
We're not gonna be lower thanthe other one We are gonna pay

(50:56):
you a living wage and we'regonna pay, our rides are gonna
cost X amount of dollars or Xamount of, cents, right?
And we're gonna un, we're goingto publish what it costs to be
in a Prius to be in this, that,and the other thing, I know guys
that have, they got into it forUber Black, and you know these
guys too, they get into it forUber Black.

(51:19):
And because there's no UberBlack ride, they're gonna take
an Uber X trip.
Okay.
At the end of the day, you mightas well hand the guy the money
and stay home because you're notmaking anything.
The other thing I hear a lot isI got into Uber black and I'm
gonna, I'm gonna get my ownprivate, private customers now.
Uber Black.
Let's be clear.

(51:40):
You have to have commercialinsurance, no question about it.
Okay?
But you have private clients.
You are not permitted to go inand outta the airport when
you're not on the app.
You're not a TNC driver at thatpoint, you're a livery driver.
Okay?

James Blain (51:55):
And most of those guys are trying to poach rides.
And guess what?
If your whole thing is, I'mgonna meet people on Uber and
I'm gonna give'em my card andI'm gonna take that business,
right?
You have just proved no one inthe actual business can trust
you because everybody's gonnaassume that's what you're gonna
do.
If you have their client in thecar and they send you a trip,

Ken Lucci (52:16):
I mean, and

James Blain (52:16):
not a viable

Ken Lucci (52:17):
This guy's a perfect example.
I'll give you a great cash rate.
I felt like saying, dude, youare Dr.
You're driving a, a fri suburbanthat you probably costs you
$1,200 a, a month and you justget paid 18 bucks to take me to
the airport.
You know, at the end of the day,I, I feel bad because you, you
probably, your cost structure issuch, it was probably 15 bucks

(52:41):
or 12 bucks to get you there.
But I, I have no issue and, andI don't feel bad because Uber is
creating this issue on theirown, where they're creating
capacity that's, stealing fromthem.
Okay.
And they wanna, why?
By the way, Uber Black is onlyabout fi about 5% of their
revenue from what I've been ableto ascertain.

(53:03):
They're not straight up.
Uber is not straight up aboutany of their data.
They're just not.
Okay.
They are about their financials.
And their stock price.
And, we are profitable if you,if it's a, if it's non-gap
accounting, et cetera, etcetera.
But when you look at the, whenthe actual metrics the
fluctuation of what they pay,they have to have all these

(53:25):
contests, and we're doing thisand we're doing that, and we
have all these different kindsof, you, if you do X amount ofri
rides, you're gonna get to thisstatus.
Why don't you just, why don'tyou just pay me a living wage
instead of obfuscating Okay.
And playing the game.
So at the, you know, at the endof the day, I do think it's

(53:45):
gonna become a critical pointwhere they're not gonna be able
to attract, a certain level ofdriver.
That's why we've been able, asan industry, to continue to do
well.
But at some point, does the poolof drivers disappear where they
just, I mean, I've seen'em onFacebook say, we're gonna, we're
gonna go on strike.
D does a union ever take over?

James Blain (54:07):
So a couple things.
I think first and foremost, youhave a massive opportunity if
you are a legacy car operator,right?
If you are a limo operator, ifyou're on the chauffeur services
space, one, you've got anincredible hiring tool and that
if you understand the waythey're marketing the dream and

(54:27):
you take a play outta their bookand look at what they're using
to attract people and then areactually able to deliver on that
and say, Hey, you have a carthat's paid for, we provide the
vehicle, we will pay you.
You don't, you get paid fordowntime, you get paid for
waiting.
You, right?
You can then you use that toattract more talent to then take

(54:48):
in the top talent.
So one, I think you've got amassive opportunity there.

Ken Lucci (54:52):
Oh, if I was an operator today, if I was an
operator, I would be trollingThe airports.
A hundred percent.
I agree with you and I laughwhen some of the operators like,
well, I won't hire an Uberdriver.
Good for you.
Because it, all you need to lookat is, does he have a clean DMV
and does he have a cleancriminal record?
He already proves he likes todrive.

(55:13):
He already proves he likes towork long hours.
And that, you know that.
I agree with you.
It's a great pool of people touplift into the space.

James Blain (55:22):
Yeah.
But that's kinda like saying, ohman, there's this supermodel
who's absolutely incredible.
But and she wants to date me,but I won't even talk to her.
'cause she dated some guy Ihated 20 years ago.
Dude,

Ken Lucci (55:33):
You know, every time I try to go up to a supermodel,
that never happens to me, butthat's okay.

James Blain (55:37):
Yeah.
A younger version of me mighthave pulled that off, but No, I,
here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
I think what happens a lot oftimes is that.
When it comes to business, you,and we've talked about this on
the financial side, we talkedabout this on the training side.
You can't let your emotions andyour feelings cloud good

(55:58):
business judgment.
If you have someone that startedon rideshare you don't wanna
look at it as, oh, they drovethey, they rideshare.
Here's the thing.
Look, I, when they, he sendsscouts to try and get top
players, there are teams thathave walk-ons, right?
Even in the highest level

Ken Lucci (56:14):
Oh, they, they, they're sending him to high
school.

James Blain (56:16):
Yeah, but there's guys that walk on, I grew up
with, you know, an awesomefootball player living right
behind our house.
That was probably one of thesmartest people financially I've
ever met.
Instead of going out and buyinga mansion and buying in all
these cars, he had a modesthouse.
He had two nice cars, and guesswhat?
That's'cause he was a walk-on.
He showed up one day at tryouts,he got on the team and he knew

(56:40):
that, that that train could cometo a stop at any point.
So he was smart about what hedid with his money.
He went, he got an education, hedid that.
Just because somebody works fora rideshare company, just'cause
someone starts there doesn'tmean they're not viable.
Doesn't mean they're notintelligent, doesn't mean
they're not

Ken Lucci (56:56):
But no to, but to your, to credits to what you do,
you have to teach them theright, the, you have to train
them from day one.
And you almost have to say, Iwant you to erase everything
about what you know aboutdriving except the safety piece.
I want you to arra.
This is not the point A frompoint B is not the only reason

(57:19):
the passenger gets in our car.
there.
are all of these subtleties.
There are all of these reasonswhy people prefer the chauffeur
experience.
You have to deliver that.
Now I, I won't say the company,but.
Down in Tampa, there was afantastic company that was
extraordinary and It was wellknown.
Black suit, gold ties,unbelievable five star reviews

(57:40):
when the last owner owned it.
And now they cut the pay of thedrivers and now all they're
attracting is, is, uh, ridesharedrivers that are part-time and
they're racing off of theRideshare app to take a ride
with this company.
And there's just no difference.
And I, I, I do think that's an,a problem with our industry

(58:01):
where you have to take theRideshare driver as a jumping
off point and your goal is totake them to the pro level.
That's your job.
And if you yourself don't getthat hire packs because they'll
get it for you.
It's the difference between I'mnot gonna hire somebody who's a

(58:23):
chambermaid at Motel six.
Look, I.
They understood the cleaningprocess, but now you have to
teach them the Ritz Carlton way.
Okay?
And that's 50 subtle things.
It's the tiny touches witheverything that we do.
So I wanna, I'm gonna tee up thenext episode that you and I are
gonna do, because it has to dowith Uber black drivers.

(58:45):
If I had to give, this is thesame advice I would give any
single car operator.
Any one car operator, okay?
Because they're all breakinginto the industry by being Uber
black drivers and trying to getup into the space.
The first thing I would tell youto do is know your costs.
You can go online and you cango, how much does it take me per

(59:07):
mile to operate a ChevroletSuburban?
You can also come to drivingtransactions.
We have a free calculator, butif you know your costs, okay,
that's a perfect place to start.
The other thing I'll tell you isknow your worth.
Know your worth.
you think, if you are an Uberdriver, an Uber black driver,

(59:27):
and you think, I'm gonna take a$300 trip and it's gonna take me
from Boston out to Springfield,probably at that point, Albany
know your worth.
You're going out there for 300bucks, 300 bucks, you're coming
back for nothing.
Okay?
So I do think it, you have tolearn the math of what you're
doing.
You have to also look at youropportunity cost, and I hate to

(59:50):
say it, you have to plan foryour worst day.

James Blain (59:54):
Yeah.

Ken Lucci (59:56):
What happens when you have an accident?
What happens when somebody pukesin your car?
What happens when somebody comesin and they've got illegal
substances?
I mean, some of the stuff I, seeon Facebook almost should be
like tax de cab confessions.
You remember that?
Show it.
Some of the stuff is just, butyou know what I feel bad for?
I feel bad for the person that'sdoing that as their full-time

(01:00:19):
job.
Okay, because, you know, theycan't afford to put tires on the
car because they've gone 30,000miles and, and they don't have
the money for tires.
Or they bought a brand new carthinking that they were gonna
make$40 an hour or$50 an hourwith it for a, a bigger car.
And their mileage is such nowthat the car is under warranty

(01:00:42):
and they're underwater for theirvehicle, payments.
So I would say before you, youreally get into it, is
investigate what your costs are.
I wouldn't use my car for it andthat's another subject for
another day, but I wouldn't usemy personal car for it if I, it,
I just wouldn't, because I don'twant random people in the back

(01:01:02):
of my car.
I would probably investigatewhat it would be to, to lease a,
a hybrid or maybe I have asecond car if that's what I'm
gonna do with it.
But I, I think it's, if, if youdon't wanna be exploited.
Know your worth.
Know what it costs you tooperate that vehicle.
Know what it costs you to havethat vehicle per day.

(01:01:25):
And I will share, there are alot of smart guys that do ride
share in urban areas that havegot it knocked.
And they all tell me very smallcer, very small area, constant
work, et cetera, et cetera.
But you have to crack the code.
And I do think it's like thepyramid where the, the first

(01:01:46):
people in make the most money orit's like it and then the rest
of the people lose their shirt.
It's like you say, it's thecasino effect.

James Blain (01:01:53):
I and, and to that point, I would say in my mind, I
have some caveats, right.
I think if you decide, I think Iwanna be an Uber driver, it
probably makes sense for you touse your own car for a week and
say, I'm gonna do one week onUber with my own car.
I'm gonna get the numbers andI'm gonna see if I like this

(01:02:14):
job.
Okay?
Because you are, and this is,this is my view on the entire
gig economy.
In the gig economy, you arestarting a business without
realizing it.
You are accidentally starting amicro business.
And so if you do it in your owncar for a week and you realize
you hate it, hey, you just savedyourself from investing and

(01:02:37):
trying to do it, but you reallywant to approach it kind of in
that same manner of, Hey, if I'mthinking about doing it, I'm
gonna do it for a week and I'mgonna see if I like it.
If I don't like it, I'm alsogonna look at the numbers and
see what I can learn there.
And then from that point, I'mgonna figure out what are my
next steps and how do I startthis as a micro business?
Hindsight being what it is,that's how I would do it.

Ken Lucci (01:02:58):
And listen, I, I, there are ton, tons of great
websites out there.
The Rideshare Guru, rideshareguy, the Facebook groups that
are out there and I would say toyou, just watch the pitfalls.
Okay.
Um, the other day I was at thecar wash and there were two guys
that were washing an Uber car.
I said, oh, which one of youdrives for Uber?

(01:03:19):
Well, we both do.
Well, whose car is this his?
Okay.
You realize that the insuranceis not gonna cover that second
guy.

James Blain (01:03:26):
Right.

Ken Lucci (01:03:27):
Okay.
So I'm not gonna get into adiscussion with somebody like
that, I mean, in a car wash.
But there are a lot of pitfallsto it.
And I do think the insurancething is a massive, you know,
kind of groundswell effect on,obviously on our side.
But I do think on the TNC side,the, the, the, that's gonna

(01:03:48):
become more and more of aproblem as well.
Some actuary, there's enoughdata now that some actuary's
gonna come out and say, you knowwhat, we're not gonna insure
this.
And you know, they're gonna haveto make their own, they're gonna
have to figure out their own,their own elements, their own
insurance elements.

James Blain (01:04:06):
Yeah, but I would, I would take this a step
further.
I would tell you that if you aregenuinely thinking about it,
unless you want, you know, and,and different strokes for
different strokes different ideaon the black car side versus the
Uber side.
If your whole thing is I want tobe able to drive when I want, do
what I want, set the schedule,do whatever I need there, Uber's

(01:04:28):
gonna make sense.
But if your thing is, I wanna beable to drive a nice vehicle and
I want to be able to providecustomer service and I want to
be able to really serve somebodyand I want to be able to have
the status and I want to be ableto be in that role.
I look rideshare is not gonnamake sense.

(01:04:49):
And even at the premium, even atthe black car level I'm sorry.
You're better off becoming anindependent operator and trying
to find, and this is again we'reclosing out.
This is gonna be a whole notherepisode at that point.
It's, you need to find your owncustomers.
You need to build your own bookof business and you need to not
be beholden to other peoplecontrolling the customer and you

(01:05:12):
being completely dependent onthem sending you the work.
Because God forbid anythinghappens in that chain, whether
it's your fault or not, you areout on the street.
And so I think that's kind ofthe big thing here on the other
side of that is you got a lotmore runway when you are in
that.
Other side of it, whereas in mymind, unless you're just looking

(01:05:33):
for a job where you can set yourown hours and you just want it
to be a job, that for me iswhere rideshare gig economy,
that part of it makes sense.
You just don't want to have tobe locked in.

Ken Lucci (01:05:45):
Until you have to pay.
Until you have to pay taxes onmoney that

James Blain (01:05:48):
Yeah.
And that's where you come in,right?
I think.
I think knowing that there arepeople out there that have
financial education courses,that have things there, and
again, that goes back to what Isaid if Uber's the right place,
or Lyft or whatever, ridesharecompany is the right place, you
need to understand that you aregoing to be starting a micro
business and you need to educateyourself and you need to

(01:06:10):
understand your numbers.
It's the exact same as if youknow you go and you get any job.
What do we do after we get donein a job interview?
You negotiate the salary andwhat are my benefits and what am
I getting?
And you understand as much asyou can.
And if you are at a company.
You are stuck at a same paylevel for five years with no
raise, no nothing.
What do you do?

(01:06:30):
You go shopping, you go findsomewhere new.
I think those are the types ofthings that to a certain extent,
you have to get behind the wheelof your own career, of your
micro business, of what you havethere.
Now that said, obviously we'vegot a,

Ken Lucci (01:06:44):
that is a, great behind the wheel of your own
career.
I love that.
I love that.
Get behind the wheel of your owncareer.

James Blain (01:06:53):
It's true though.

Ken Lucci (01:06:54):
get behind the wheel of your own career.
Understand your cost structure,understand your daily break
even.
Understand who the best andbrightest in your market are
that actually know their numbersand find a mentor if that's what
you want to do.
But to your point, if you'rejust starting out, use your car
for a week, use your car for amonth.

(01:07:16):
Don't be afraid to stop into alimo company and say, you know
what?
I think I'd like to drive.
What do you have?
What do you have available for?
They're always looking for, forclean cut people to, uh, learn
the chauffeur trade.
And it is.
a trade.
It is a trade.
There are businesses out therethat, that teach people how to,
uh, how to do it.

James Blain (01:07:36):
Yeah.
And I think there's no betterplace to leave this episode.
Right?
I think the thing that we'vegone around and come back to is
a lot of, I think our issue, thetwo of us with it, is the lack
of transparency.
And, if anybody on the rideshear side is listening,
hopefully we've given you ablueprint.
But also, if you're not on theride share drive, and you've
come this far along the ridewith us, I think the other side

(01:07:58):
is this is an opportunity foryou.
This is an opportunity for youto be able to be transparent,
for you, to be able to actuallybe clear with people, for you to
actually let them know whatthey're getting into.
And so, hopefully, again, youguys have enjoyed this episode.
We've got plenty of topics thatare gonna relate to this that
we're gonna hit on.
One of the things that we wouldask is drops a comment, drops a
subscribe.

(01:08:19):
Let us know, is this helpful?
Do you get anything outta this?
And most importantly, what'syour thought?
We'd love to know, did you drivefor Uber?
Do you drive for Uber, Lyft,GrubHub?
You know, do you own a company?
What's kind of your backgroundand experience?
And what topics here should wecome back to in the future?
And I think with that, Ken, anylast words of wisdom for us on
this one

Ken Lucci (01:08:39):
Yeah, the Uber, uh, the CEO of Uber makes$39 million
a year.
So when I hear people talk aboutincome, when I hear people talk
about income inequality and theywere in the back of an Uber
vehicle and they just happen tobe, certain political
persuasion, that's where youneed to start with income
inequality.
Right there.
$39 million.

(01:09:01):
Yep.

James Blain (01:09:02):
and on that$39 million bombshell.
Thank you again, everybody forlistening, and we hope you will
tune in to the next episode.
Bye-bye.

Ken Lucci (01:09:10):
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to theground transportation podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please remember to subscribe to
the show on apple, Spotify,YouTube, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
For more information about PAXtraining and to contact James,
go to PAX training.com.
And for more information aboutdriving transactions and to

(01:09:31):
contact Ken, Go to drivingtransactions.com.
We'll see you next time on theground transportation podcast.