Why Your Insurance Costs Keep Rising (And What You Can Actually Do About It)

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For 14 straight years, commercial auto insurance has been unprofitable — and for operators, premiums keep climbing with no end in sight. In this hard-hitting episode, James Blain and Ken Lucci sit down with Tim Delaney, President of the Commercial Auto Division at Lancer Insurance, to unpack what’s really driving your insurance costs — and what you can do about it.

Tim explains how “nuclear verdicts,” rising medical costs, and attorney-funded lawsuits have transformed the insurance landscape, why fleet owners are paying for systemic legal abuse, and how to protect your business before a claim ever happens. In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why the legal system, not your loss runs, is inflating premiums.
• What underwriters actually look for (and how safety documentation can lower your risk).
• How to make your company defensible before an accident ever occurs.
• The real meaning of reinsurance — and how global risk pools affect your local premiums.
• Why affiliate vetting and contract structures can make or break your personal liability.

This is a must-listen for every owner and operator facing rising insurance costs and looking to stay financially viable in today’s litigious environment.

Chapters
00:00 Welcome
00:26 Background
02:01 The Myth Of Fleet Insurance
06:49 How Insurance and Re-Insurance Works
12:33 Focus on Re-Insurance
14:07 History In Livery Space
15:14 Risk Categories
18:03 Limits
20:24 Permanent Hard Insurance Market
30:51 Don't Put Your House Up
32:25 Symbol Seven Only
41:38 Will The Storm Break?
49:46 Telematics And Training
52:10 What Sets Lancer Apart From The Rest
58:04 Conclusion

Connect with Tim Delaney: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timothy-delaney-b524a55/
Learn more about Lancer Insurance: https://www.lancerinsurance.com/

At Driving Transactions, Ken Lucci and his team offer financial analysis, KPI reviews,  for specific purposes like improving profitability, enhancing the value of the enterprise business planning and buying and selling companies. So if you have any of those needs, please give us a call or check us out at www.drivingtransactions.com.

Pax Training is your  all in one solution designed to elevate your team's skills, boost passenger satisfaction, and keep your business ahead of the curve. Learn more at www.paxtraining.com/gtp

Connect with Kenneth Lucci, Principle Analyst at Driving Transactions:
https://www.drivingtransactions.com/

Connect with James Blain, President at PAX Training:
https://paxtraining.com/

Episode Transcript

James Blain (00:25):
Hey there everybody, and welcome back to
another exciting episode of theGround Transportation Podcast.
I am super excited about thisepisode.
Not only do I have my co-hostKen Lucci, financial Genius
Sales m and a expert, I could, Icould probably do a whole
podcast on anything Ken coulddo.
Ken, good to have you back.

Ken Lucci (00:43):
I'm so happy to be here with you, especially also
with, uh, our guests, butlooking forward to this one.

James Blain (00:50):
Yeah, I am super excited about today we have Tim
Delaney, the president of LancerInsurance, which is division of
core specialty.
Guys, I gotta tell you, when itcomes to insurance, if you
haven't heard of Lancer, I'mvery sorry you probably don't
have insurance.
Um, Lancer Hass been doing thisforever.
I'm lucky enough that at PAXTraining we actually partner
with them to have some of theirtraining available to our

(01:11):
members.
Um, I can't say enough aboutthese guys.
And Tim, I can't say enoughabout you and how excited we are
to have you on the podcast.
Welcome to the podcast buddy.

Tim Delaney (01:20):
Thank you very much.
Uh, thank you for having me and,uh, very happy to be here.
I appreciate everything you guysdo for the industry and the
messages that you put out there.
So, uh,

Ken Lucci (01:32):
Well, we try, um, you know, from my perspective,
people call have been calling ussince 2018 to help them sell
their companies.
And when we first started itwas, I am past the point of
retirement, I wanna sell mybusiness.
And in the pandemic it was,business has stopped, I need to
sell my business.
And it seems to me now thenumber one reason people are

(01:54):
calling us is because there'sbeen massive increases in their
fleet insurance.
But I wanna, first, I wannadispel a myth.
The myth is that the increase ininsurance, are because of the
insurance carriers.
So I, I would like you toaddress that because.
People think that commercialfleet insurance is extremely

(02:15):
profitable, but from everythingI read about the ins the
insurance industry, that's notthe case.
So I'd like you if you candispel that myth first.

Tim Delaney (02:26):
Yeah, well, it's pretty easy to dispel because,
you know, the commercial autosegment of property casualty
insurance, hasn't beenprofitable for the last 14
years.
We're we're going on.

James Blain (02:37):
Say, say that again, Tim.
'cause I think they need to hearit, right?
Everybody, everybody wants toknow what boat you bought this
year.
Right?
But I, I think what you justsaid is really important because
people don't realize it.
Say it again.

Tim Delaney (02:48):
Well, so, uh, the commercial auto part of the
property casualty insuranceworld has not been profitable
for 14 years.
and particularly to the, thesegment of ground
transportation.
Um.
That that holds true.
You know, there are certainniche segments within that, but
everybody's subject to the sametrends.

(03:09):
Right.
And the easiest one to point outto people who aren't in the
insurance industry ortransportation industry is,
attorney advertising, right?
How much more of that is, isthere today than there was a
long time ago?
So that, you know, that's kindof something you can pick out
visually, but what's behind thatis there's way more attorney
involvement in claims than theyused to be 20 years ago.

(03:31):
Those attorneys, uh, are waybetter funded.
They have a way better, uh,playbook.
and that's a big part thatthere, and by funded, there's
actually even third partiesthat, that will fund their
litigation for a piece of theaction.
and that's really only the, the,surface level of what's
happening if you dive deeper,Simple things like, uh, a small,

(03:53):
a small accident that, uh, youknow, dents, a bumper 20 years
ago was, you know, a couplehundred dollars to fix the
bumper.
The, these days, you know,there's cameras and software and
electronics, right?
So that's kind of a natural ininflation that is built into the
system.
Then, medical costs, right,which tend to outstrip, uh,

(04:14):
general inflation as well, youknow, kind of, uh, has driven
the costs up on the liabilityside when there, when there are
injuries.
And then add on top of that thelawyers, Not only getting better
at using, uh, those medicalcosts and the medical system to
inflate the cost of claims,they've just gotten even better
at using the legal system withthings like time limit demands

(04:36):
and, threat of juries who areway more willing to give away
large sums of money today, uh,than, than they traditionally
have been in the past.
So all of those ingredients gointo, say the cost of claims are
going up.
And for insurance companies, youknow, um, you know, I think to
you guy, your guys' point, a lotof people overestimate.

(04:59):
Our position in the chain,right?
We don't necessarily set rates,right?
I mean, we take pools ofhomogenous risk.
We, we figure out what theclaims costs and we reflect that
back onto the industries thatwe're serving, right?
So the increased claims costsare external to the insurance
industry.
We, we are just kind ofreporting the news.

(05:20):
And if I had to sum it up for,for ground transportation
operators, in a big way, thelegal industry is, is, you know,
it'd be extreme to say robbingyour money, but that's kind of
what they're doing.
I mean, they're driving thesecosts up.

Ken Lucci (05:34):
And specifically in states that, that don't have
caps, and I'm just gonna say itin, in blue states, where
there's no tort reform, no hopeof to tort reform.
And isn't it true that for everydollar you take in the
commercial, uh, on commercialfleet, a dollar for is paid out?

Tim Delaney (05:53):
Uh, well if you go by the macro numbers as of, uh,
year end 24 and even at sixmonths 25, it's more like a
dollar 12 goes out.
Um, so, you know, we measurecombined ratio is, is, is the
word we use in insurance.
So a hundred per a hundredpercent combined ratios break
even.
Anything below that is margin.

(06:15):
Anything above that.
And commercial auto has beenrunning, you know, up around
between 1 0 8 and one 12 now for13 years in a row with, you
know, one exception 20 the COVIDyear, which you know, isn't
really valid yet.

James Blain (06:27):
different, different

Ken Lucci (06:28):
so, so, you know, the other, the other, the other
misnomer I think that's outthere and, you know, the blame
of the insurance agent, theinsurance carrier, which is
totally misplaced.
And the other myth that's outthere is that my loss runs
aren't bad.
I shouldn't have an increase.
They don't understand theinsurance ecosystem.

(06:49):
So can you give us just a briefon, you know, how insurance
works, the ecosystem.
It's not just your loss runs.
your part of a, a, a globalecosystem.
Perhaps even touch onreinsurance and what's gone on
in reinsurance, uh, as well.

James Blain (07:06):
And Tim, I, I want you to add one thing to that as
well, if you don't mind, becausethe other thing that we hear all
the time is, well, if we canjust get'em to look at only us,
right?
If we can just get it down tojust like our segment or our
industry or our vertical.
That's something we've heard alot lately.
So I'd be, I'd also be curiousto hear your opinion on how that
plays into it.

Tim Delaney (07:27):
Sure.
So, um, let me chip away at thatone piece at a time.
So insurance in general, right,is you try and find, you know,
some group of homogenous riskand you've spread the claims,
you know, that certain portionsof that pool out over the entire
pool and, uh, you know,everybody gets to pay a smaller

(07:48):
amount, to cover potentialclaims that they would have,
right?
That's insurance 1 0 1.
Um, so.
The concept of somebody saying,well, just my loss runs aren't
that, you know, aren't bad.
I haven't had any claims, sowhy, why do I deserve a rate
increase?
You know, there is a poolingaspect to it, right?

(08:09):
And it's particularly pronouncedin commercial auto, in personal
lines, like the, you know, whatwe buy for, for our, the, the
cars we drive on a day-to-daybasis.
The limits are a lot lower.
Right.
So, you know, those, those willbe, you know, quite sensitive
to, to your particular risk.
If you don't have claims, it'll,it can probably, you know, stay,

(08:29):
uh, pretty even over time or, orat least the pooling effect,
meaning, you know, when, when,uh, the entire environment of
claims changes, the, the amountthat it affects each policy is,
can be spread pretty far andwide.
'cause it's also a big pool.
The problem in commercial autois limits are large.

(08:49):
Right.
Generally a million dollars or,or$5 million on buses.
And, and back to, you know, whatwe covered already, where the
problem right now is, islitigation.
Abuse or, you know, growth incosts, how, however you want to
describe it.
That problem exists across, youknow, the big limit world,

(09:11):
right?
The, uh, you know, um, thestronger the attorneys are and,
and, um, you know, the moretools that they have and the
more they can inflate costs, uh,any one claim can get up to as
high as$5 million, whichobviously, you know, as an
insurance company, not everybodycan pay you back that much money
when they have that.
If you're, if you're a, youknow, a three unit operator,

(09:33):
it's not like you can pay theinsurance company back, you
know, even over time.
so you know, what that means isfor an insurance company to
expose their limits, whetherit's a million or 5 million
limit, you know, they, they needto have a certain comfort that
they're collecting enough moneyacross the pool of everything
they write in the eventuality,you know, that a certain segment

(09:55):
of them have a claim andeverybody's subject to that.
Right.
Um.
it, it's, uh, hard to explain.
When somebody has lost runs,they, they haven't had a claim
where they say, well, I'm payingfor everybody else's sins.
And you know, to an extent.
That's true.
but I would say for anyinsurance company, you know,

(10:16):
there's still a lot ofindividual underwriting baked
into any, any pricing, right?
Even across, uh, the samemarket.
there is a portion of it that'sdependent on their opinion of
your operations, on the claimsthat you've had on the type of
work that you do, the driverprofiles and everything that
goes into the underwriting.
But at the end of the day, largeclaims are very unpredictable.

(10:38):
Anyone can have them.
Because it could, it, it doesn'teven necessarily have to be your
fault, to have a claim that yourcompany can be found responsible
for.
So if you want to, if, if youwant to have an insurance
company cover you for thosetypes of limits, they have to
bake in, you know, a certainamount for those excess claims,
which is where all the problemswe'll probably talk about

(10:59):
throughout this podcast exist.
The cost of claims are going updramatically and insurance
companies for going on 14 yearsof not collecting enough money
to pay for them.

Ken Lucci (11:11):
during that time, your cost to reinsure, because
you don't, you don't, you don'tbear the burden of the of All
the risk you have there isreinsurance as well, correct?

Tim Delaney (11:23):
Um, you know, it's, differs by carrier.
We tend to not buy, a lot ofreinsurance.
and the reason for that is, um.
You know, if you talk about, Idon't know how deep we want to
go into the insurance world, butyou know, the, the a a book wide
purchase, you know, treatyreinsurance means it covers
everything that you write.

(11:43):
Facultative insurance is whenyou buy it for one risk, right?
So on a treaty basis, um, to, tobuy reinsurance is very tough in
a volatile line that has biglimits like commercial auto, say
in the, in the bus business,because of the 5 million limit
and it's a pretty smallindustry.
Results can be volatile overtime.

(12:04):
You can make money over time ifyou, if you, you know, have the
gumption to stay in the businessand not get nervous when you do
have the claims.
Um, but it can be volatile and,and when the claims go up, um,
you, you have to really haveconfidence in your underwriting
and claims handling.
But in, in terms of buyingreinsurance, you know, a
reinsurer who's looking at thatbook of business and that

(12:26):
volatility is probably gonnaprice you to your worst year.
Right, so,

Ken Lucci (12:31):
Why?
Why wouldn't that?

Tim Delaney (12:33):
what

James Blain (12:33):
and, and take a step back for us, Tim,'cause
we've talked about it before onthe podcast, but can you give us
just a Bri, like, if I don'tknow what reinsurance is, and
I'm listening now, can you kindof tell us a, a real quick, just
to kind of bring them up tospeed on what it is, why you
need it, or why you would useit?

Tim Delaney (12:49):
It is a, it's a great point.
And, um, it's, it's insurancefor insurance companies, right?
So if you build up, uh, yousell, uh, you, you sell
insurance to a hundred differentcompanies of any sort, you know,
your potential exposure can bepretty high.
So depending on how much capitalyou have as a financial
institution, you may, choose toincrease your ability to, to

(13:13):
write business by bringing in apartner to share the risk.
So, so you're basically bringingin their balance sheet, to match
up with your balance sheet, uh,to expand your ability to, to
offer, uh, insurance.
Um, but so, when they, when thatreinsurer.
Uh, marks you to the worst year.
you know, that means that you'regonna be paying them for your

(13:34):
worst year in your good years,right?
And so you, so you're givingaway a lot of your profit.
Now there's a, you know,reinsurance is a long discussion
and there's a lot of, a lot ofreasons to buy them and a lot of
ways to buy it.
Um, but at Lanter InsuranceCompany, we were always kind of
in for a penny in for a patent.
If we think we know this stuffand we're gonna get as involved,
uh, with loss control andunderwriting and claims and all

(13:57):
the touching that we do, youknow, we want to be fully
aligned and have full confidencein the fact that, that we know
what we're doing and put ourmoney where our mouth is.

Ken Lucci (14:07):
How long have you been writing in the space?

Tim Delaney (14:11):
Um, well, the bus business started in 85.
Delivery business started in themid nineties.

Ken Lucci (14:17):
Yep.

Tim Delaney (14:18):
you know, and that even will be loosely defined
because we, we, we started inthe New York area.
Um.
Really in what, you know, whatwe would call the black car
space.
Um, and, and then, you know, uh,through, through that
experience, kind of learned thatthere was this luxury niche, you

(14:38):
know, the word that, that wewould use now, um, that, you
know, tend to be owned by guysthat really care about the
service they're providing.
you know, it is a high level ofservice.
It comes with training.
There was a higher level of, ofvetting on the drivers, you
know, and all the types ofthings that work into a good
risk.
And we, you know, towards theend of the nineties, settled

(15:00):
into that niche, which ended up,you know, growing, uh, being a
great pick because, uh, it wasa, it was a good business and
has grown and changed manytimes.
but we've been able to stickwith the industry and, and still
like the outlook.

James Blain (15:14):
yeah, so earlier, you know, we mentioned kind of
this idea of the risk categoriesand commercial auto and
everything there.
Now I, I'm lucky enough, Ialready know the answer to this
question, but, you know, we heara lot about this big segment,
right?
Like, we're being lumped in witheverybody.
We're paying for everything thateverybody across is doing.
You know, you guys don't fall ininto a category of a insurer

(15:35):
that's insuring everything underthe sun, right?
If I call Lancer right now andI'm like, Hey, I got a
17-year-old daughter that needsinsurance, right?
Once that guy is, is doneexplaining to me why you don't
do it, it's gonna be okay.
But what, tell us a bit aboutwhat does it look like in terms
of the categories you've picked,the ones you work in, and talk
to us about this, this issuethat we're seeing where people

(15:57):
are saying, kinda like we talkedabout earlier, well, I'm paying
for the sins, everybody else.
What does that really look likein terms of those risk
categories?
And where does a lancer livekind of within that space of
commercial auto?

Tim Delaney (16:10):
Sure.
That's a great question.
Um, you know, I, it's one thatI've heard a lot of times, uh,
you know, for over a decade.
And, you know, the quick answeris, uh, nobody's lumped in, with
everybody else.
All, all of the issues, uh, thatare going on in, in litigation
and the medical world and, andeverything else, it does apply

(16:32):
to all commercial auto.
but I think sometimes thatmisinterpret or that
misunderstanding is probablyborn out of how the message was
delivered, whether it was at aconference or by the broker or
anything.
Um, but all insurance companieshave to, at least in commercial
auto, have to file.
forms and rates with everyinsurance department in every
state, right?

(16:53):
Member insurance is notfederally regulated.
It's regulated by the states.
and when you do that, you haveto do that with different class
codes down to vehicle type.
you know, so there's, it's notlike you, you take a, a trucking
filing and underwrite a, a taxior a limo with it, right?
You have to follow very, in myopinion, probably overly

(17:13):
specific filings that you havein every one of those
jurisdictions.
So there's no way, uh, that youcan lump everybody in.
But I think the, the sentimentis born, uh, out of how the
message is delivered, which, youknow, isn't completely wrong in
that all of these, uh, badtrends, right?
With uh.
You know, be it legal, medical,uh, or, or anything else.

(17:36):
It does apply to all of auto,uh, the plaintiff's bar has, has
figured out, um, that auto casesare very easily replicable.
Um, you know, um, maybe we'llget to a point where we'll go
deeper into the list of why.
Um, but you know, for, for allthe people that you and I serve,

(17:57):
um, it's particularly pronouncedbecause they're bigger target
'cause they have higher limitseven than trucks generally.

James Blain (18:03):
Well, and, and talk about that for a second, Tim.
'cause I, I think that'ssomething that gets lost as well
because I, anybody that doesn'tknow this on the podcast, right,
if you are registered, I can golook up your limit and I know
your limit right now as Joe Blowon the street.
So can you talk about how easy,how that kind of sets them apart
from some of the others?

Tim Delaney (18:24):
Well, it's, you know, it sets you apart from
everybody else on the road,right?
Because they might have, youknow, in some states you can
have 15, 30 limits on a privatepassenger vehicle.
so if an attorney gets theirhands on a case where there's
even a million limit, that's,you know, more exciting than a
lot of stuff that comes throughhis door.
Um, so, you know, at Lanter we,we have, we do have a, a

(18:47):
smattering of a lot of differentthings.
I mean, our biggest businessesare passenger transportation.
Um, but we do have smallerbusinesses of, you know, some,
some local and intermediatetrucking in certain areas, and
we have.
Uh, a little bit of long haultrucking.
And one thing I can tell you is,um, the trucking world is

(19:07):
multiples, uh, many, manymultiples of the size of the
passenger transportation market.
And the trends, uh, that we'reseeing, across that book across
the country, are even, way worseright now.
And I think that's because theplaintiff's bar, I mean you can
Google it, they have seminarsand instruction booklets and

(19:28):
everything about how to teachnew attorneys how to go out and
target trucking companies.
Right.
And some of the things that arecounterintuitive that, that also
applies to passengertransportation where.
You know, the F-M-C-S-A websitewith all the safer scores and,
and, and public transparency oninspections.
You know, all that is great.

(19:48):
It's, you know, we always lookedat, we look at it as helpful to
our underwriting.
but plaintiff's attorneys havegotten good at using that stuff
to make everybody look bad.
It's like, you know, you had sixinspections and three of them
had violations.
Right.
And it, it kind of adds, youknow, they make things sound in
context, you know, worse thanthose of us in the industry,

(20:09):
know that, that they are.
And it all comes down to how itwould play in front of a, a
jury, right.
And, um, gives them more ammo todrive up, you know, settlement
of cases.
And certainly for the smallpercentage that gets tried,
bigger verdicts.

Ken Lucci (20:24):
You know, part, part of my frustration, when I talk
to clients is they think that,you know, frankly it's across
the board, the new operators.
'cause there's practically nobarrier to entry in the space.
They don't take.
Safety, seriously.
They think, well, I had didn'thave an issue getting insurance

(20:46):
the first year.
and then it's the, it's theolder operators that, well, I've
been doing this for 30 years thesame way.
know, I think the reality isthat we're in a permanent hard
insurance market.
Am I right or wrong about that?

Tim Delaney (21:02):
Yep.
Well, you know, the fact thatrates have been going up in
passenger transportation for 14years is, is, uh, you know, I
don't know of another instancein the history of insurance
where something continued thatlong.
you know, usually insurance goesin cycles, which, you know,
isn't, necess isn't necessarilytort reform or everything
driven.
It also has to do with interestrates and, and the other ways,

(21:24):
uh, insurance companies makemoney.
But, you know, this has been,it's, it's not a cyclical hard
market.
It's, it's been a hard marketbecause fundamental change in
the cost of the claims.

James Blain (21:36):
Yeah.

Ken Lucci (21:37):
That's, that is, you just said a mouthful.
It's it's fundamental cost infundamental changes.
Permanent changes in the cost ofclaims.

Tim Delaney (21:47):
Mm-hmm.

Ken Lucci (21:48):
So and my whole point is people are saying, well, it's
gonna have to go back.
It's it, no, it's not.
Because the cost of to fix anelect, uh, uh, electric vehicle
is almost double what acombustion engine is.
All of the electronics in thevehicles now, you hit a
mouthful.
Back in the day I can remember,it cost me 250 bucks to replace

(22:11):
a chrome, a chrome bumper on1987 Cadillac Fleetwood, I rem,
uh, Cadillac, uh, Deville.
I remember it like it wasyesterday.
I mean, you, you couldn'treplace the, the bumper the, uh,
the plastic housing now forthat, or even around the license
pipe.
So, you know, when I talk toolder operators, I say, you
know, your very issue is thatyour mentality is, I'm gonna do

(22:33):
it the same way I did ityesterday or the day before.

James Blain (22:37):
No.

Ken Lucci (22:37):
Talk to us about, and I wanna get real.
If you had a brother-in-law thathad his personal income and
wealth tied up in this spacethat owned a fleet, what would
you tell him for best advice?

James Blain (22:50):
And you like this brother-in-law, Tim.
you really like this.
You really like this.
You really like him.

Tim Delaney (22:56):
in case they watch this, I'm very lucky with
brother-in-laws.
Um, yeah, love them all.
Um, but what, you know, what Iwould say to them is, you know,
you gotta, you, you have to goall out on.
Safety and I, and, and I don'tmean that just in, in checking

(23:18):
boxes and saying you have to,I'm like, you gotta have
cameras, you gotta havetelematics, you gotta have
driver training.
Like a lot of the messages thatyou guys put out and be like a
portion of that.
Of course, it's in the interestof true safety and preventing
accidents.
Right?
That's, that's, that's obviouslyparamount, but.
One thing I see even in peoplewho buy who, who work pretty

(23:41):
hard at that, you have to have alittle bit of the mindset to
say, all of this is also in theinterest of making me defensible
for when I have a claim.
Right.
So, and that, and that, youknow, is kind of the backup
stuff.
Like, you know, documentingprocesses and documenting
training and having follow ups.
You know, you have to really goto the nth degree so that if

(24:04):
something really bad doeshappen, you know, you have be
like, there is no way, there'snothing else that we could have
done, you know, to prevent this.
Right.
but anyway.

Ken Lucci (24:15):
Look, look, you, you, we hit upon it.
James and I were having aconversation contrary to popular
belief, we do talk outside this,this podcast'cause it is a
full-time job.

James Blain (24:25):
Lots of yelling.

Ken Lucci (24:26):
You know, the, the analogy I use is I'm, I'm
turning 60 and I go in for ahealth exam and the doctor says,
you know, you, you've gained alittle weight and, and by the
way, you're pre-diabetic.
And by the way, your bloodpressure is up a little bit,
which are all true, by the way,because of the clients that I
have.
Anyone?
No, that's not a kidding.
And they say to me, you know,you, you need a, a health
regimen.

(24:47):
So my answer is I go out and buyan apple, uh, a an apple watch.
And on my next, on my nextvisit, I say, you see I have an
Apple watch.
But the doctor says, well, your,your stats are still bad.
You haven't changed anythingthat you're doing.
So that analogy is what I hearpeople say, well, I have
telematics.
Well, I have cameras.

(25:08):
And your message is verystraightforward.
All in means, all in meaningdocument all your safety
processes, document all of theways you've changed the behavior
of your drivers, and how you'vemade safety a culture.
Okay.
It's you hit the nail on thehead.
It's not enough to check thebox.
Okay.

(25:28):
Well, I have telematics.
Okay.
Well, how, what do your driversscore?
What?
Tell me what yesterday.
Tell me yesterday.
What, what does the reportingsay?
Um, you know, how many guys didyou have that are doing harsh
braking?
Huh?
What they, they're just notusing the telematics to, to
change the behavior and tocreate the culture of safety.

(25:52):
I a client's been in, in thebusiness for 30, 40 years.
Basically just get kicked out ofhis captive.
Because, because he, so he wentthrough the trouble of a
captive.
And I, I do want you to touchupon captive because you know,
there's there's some messagingout there that scares me.
Okay.
Because it's not the solutionfor everybody.

James Blain (26:13):
Although it's billed that way often.

Ken Lucci (26:15):
oh, it's totally billed that way.
You know, there's no easysolution here.
And I'm tired of the people whoare peddling the fact that this
is, there's an easy way to fixthis.
There is absolutely not.
But it start, it starts withchanging your behavior as an
owner.
Where to go from the idea of,well, we haven't had an
accident, so we're doingsomething.

(26:35):
Well, guess what?
You're overdue.
But anyway, so this guy, youknow, goes through the process
of the, of the, of the captive,you know, puts whatever money
aside, and then he literallyfalls down because he doesn't do
the internal, what he should bedoing in his company.
And he is like, well, I, youknow, I thought when I invested
in the captive, I'm like, again.

(26:56):
It's in.
It's like investing in a healthylifestyle and investing in well,
I go to church.
Well, do you really read theBible?
I mean, that's what it comesdown to.
So I think it's changingbehavior, and I think it's
making safety in every singleday part of your business and

(27:16):
part of changing the behavior ofyour drivers, your dispatchers.
Everybody.
Everybody.
You can't be pushing thesedrivers to stay on the road
longer than they should be.
That's safe just because youhave a trip that you haven't
filled.
And at the same time, youcannot, you cannot change the

(27:36):
behavior of your iOS if youdon't hold them to the same
standard as your in-housedrivers.
Talk a little bit about the useof iOS and frankly, that doesn't
change the risk of the companythat's in business.

Tim Delaney (28:33):
No.
Um, you know, when we do ourunderwriting, we, we.
Uh, you know, do a lot of workon, on vetting drivers.
Um, you know, we, you know, oneof the things we, we kind of
offer as a value added serviceis, uh, we've been doing it so
long that our DA database ofdrivers has a lot of stuff in it

(28:54):
that a normal MVR wouldn't showyou.
Um, and drivers tend to pop upall over the place.
Um, you know, so, so, you know,when, when a lot of our insureds
send stuff in, you know, it, it,it at face value, meet checks,
all the boxes, and then we'll,you know, we'll have to let them
know that, you know, this personcan't be put in a, in an insured
driving status with us.

(29:16):
Um, you can't always say why,but that's information that we
have, you know, that helps.
So, uh, as far as iOS, you know,the industry has kind of gone
back and forth on this.
You know, in a while, um, youknow, defining the employment
status isn't really my place,but I think one of the, uh, one

(29:38):
of the risks that's probablyunmeasured and unpriced in, out
in the marketplace is how muchgrowth there's been in the
amount of business that peoplefarm out to other businesses.

Ken Lucci (29:48):
Absolutely, absolutely.
But the message has to be if, ifyou expect a certain level of
safety of your in-house drivers,you have to extend that to
everybody that you farm tobecause you're still liable.
You are still at risk.

Tim Delaney (30:04):
you're big time liable, right?
We, it's called the, you know,stacking of limits on, on our
end.
And, you know, we, we've triedto share, you know, there's,
there's legal things to becareful of, but we've tried to
share some simple best practicesto where anybody, you know,
you're gonna do, uh, farm outbusiness to as an affiliate, um,

(30:24):
you know, make sure you do alittle bit of diligence on, on
their safety.
Make sure that they have, youknow, the same insurance limits
that you have, because that'sbeen a problem in certain cases.
If you have five and they haveone, um, you know, you create a
little bit of a vacuum towardsyour limits legally.
Um, you wanna make sure you,you, you.
Put some thought into theagreements that you have with

(30:46):
all them.
Like, if I farm out a, a job toyou, you can't farm it out to
somebody else, right?
Because then that's ano, that'sanother level.
And that's happened too to whereeverybody in that chain, uh, has
had to pay.
Um, so, you know, and then, youknow, making sure the
indemnification agreements arecorrect.
Uh, some other really simplethings, like even if you check

(31:07):
that they have the sameinsurance, make sure you check
again next year, right?
Insurance tends to renew andchange.
You know, like some, somereally, really simple stuff.
But, uh, that is definitely an,an exposure that has gone up
dramatically over the past 10years.
And really our us the insuranceindustry hasn't really figured
out how to get our arms aroundthat, right?

(31:29):
How to price for it.

Ken Lucci (31:31):
Right.
And well, and the reality is theguys that are out there now that
are, I do affiliate work.
I, I, I farm out work.
I provide transportation allover the world.
You know, your reality is youmight as well just put your
house on the line because if youare not doing the vetting of
these people, and it, I, itmakes me laugh, Y you know,

(31:51):
James will tell you that I havea real problem with Facebook,
right?

James Blain (31:55):
Oh,

Ken Lucci (31:56):
first of all, half my owners hang out there all day
and they tell me they don't havetime to go out and generate
proactive revenue, andeverything is low price.
And the second thing is theylook for their affiliates on
Facebook by saying, I have a, Ihave a ride tomorrow morning at
six o'clock in the morning atRichmond.
Who do we have?
I mean, are you outta your mind?
Why don't you just put your, whydon't you just put your house

(32:18):
up?

James Blain (32:18):
Well, but it, it goes deeper than that too, Ken.
Right?
Because I talked to someone whofarmed something out to an
affiliate.
Then the affiliate farmed it upto an io.
Then the IO crashed the car andit came all the way back up the
chain, and they had no idea,right?
They thought that theiraffiliate was handled.
They thought their affiliate wasgood.
Well, turns out the iOSinsurance wasn't that great.
Well, now all of a sudden, rightback up the chain,

Ken Lucci (32:42):
You know it's funny, those, the lawyers have a way of
finding out who's got the bestinsurance.

Tim Delaney (32:47):
they are gonna find it out and they're gonna get it
all on the table.
And, uh, yeah, not to go toodeep into insurance policies,
but there are issues in thosescenarios, you know, where, uh,
a policy form could be symbolseven only, you know, which.
Which slows down the flowbetween them all,

James Blain (33:05):
what is, what is symbol seven?
Only translate that into Englishfor the

Tim Delaney (33:08):
So that's, uh, named vehicles only, right?
Where, uh, if you have 7, 8, 9,8 and nine, symbol eight and
nine would be, uh, hirednon-owned autos, which is where
the affiliate work co, you know,comes in.
So, um, so yeah, there's a lotof issues there.
You know, the, the employmentstatus of it, which was kind of
an old issue, you know, thateverybody worked themselves

(33:30):
through and went back and fortha bit.
That's one thing.
Um, I think the, the insurancerisk that sits out there today
is just what we hit on, on theaffiliate stuff.
And there's a, a long way toevolve, uh, for the insurance
industry and the all theoperators to get their arms
around that risk, because Ken'sright in a, in a real bad

(33:51):
circumstance.
Your house, you know, if you arethe owner of a company, you are
all the assets of the companyand the personal assets of the
owner, uh, can come into play.
And we have seen that

Ken Lucci (34:03):
Well, and the corporate veil can be p pierced
for negligence and there we willfind it negligent.
That you didn't vet this.
How did you, how, what was yourrelationship with this
affiliate?
Oh, I found him on Facebook 12hours before the freaking trip.
Uh, I'm not supposed to, Tim,I'm not, I'm not supposed to
swear anymore on the

James Blain (34:20):
if, if if it was 12 hours before the trip that they
might count that as duediligence.
'cause I've seen'em as close asfive minutes and it kills me.
Right.
It kills me.
I mean we, we've, it's funnybecause on our level, we've even
gone as far, we've built adirectory.
You can literally go to the PSwebsite and look up everybody
using pax.
Right?
You can, and it's just as quickas Facebook.

(34:42):
I promise.
It loads just as fast.
Right.
You know, there's so many toolsthat are out there and available
that don't get used.
And one of the things that,that, Tim, I'd like you to talk
about,'cause I know you guys doa great job of it.
What about kind of the otherside of the spectrum?

(36:02):
I see a lot of operators thatwork to really do the right
thing, but then when it comestime for renewal, they're not
really putting that forward.
They're not really saying, Hey,here's our training program.
Here's this, here's that.
How much of a difference does itreally make?
For these companies that areactually out there trying to do
it all right.

(36:23):
Is that something where there'sa way that they're able to kind
of put that foot forward andshow that to underwriting?
I know it's a, a again, you guysare, are tied to state law and
you don't do discountsgenerally, but how does, how
does someone that's getting itright, doing it right?
How do you actually put that towork, so to speak?

Tim Delaney (36:42):
Um, so there's a couple things there.
I mean, uh, the answer is yes.
Putting all those thingstogether and getting them to
your underwriter is extremelyimportant, right?
You should always be puttingforth everything you're doing to
keep, uh, claims low.
And, uh, the cost of the claimsthat you do have low, um, a part

(37:02):
of that job, uh, certainly fallson the, on your broker, right?
Um, they're supposed to do acertain amount of diligence and,
and, and have a sense of whatunderwriters want to see and get
them that information.
Um, and then how it goes to workon our side.
Um, you know, you said like youdon't give discounts.

(37:23):
You know, there are, you know,discount's probably not the
right word, but there's a lot ofthings that we look at that all
go into the soup and affect theprice.
Um, you know, so, you know, Ialways say, uh, over the past,
you know, probably 10 years whenyou talk about cameras and some
of the different fleetmanagement systems, a lot of
times some people want it a, asatisfying answer.

(37:45):
Like, well, if I have thissystem, you know, how much does
my premium go down?

James Blain (37:49):
Oh.
That's my whole life, Tim.
Right?
I hear that all the time.
I'm gonna buy packs tomorrow.
How big a discount do I get?
And it's like, okay, are yougonna use it?
Are you gonna apply it?
This is not a, you bought it, sothey give you a gift.

Tim Delaney (38:00):
Y Yeah.
The, yeah, the long answer is,well, we have to see what, what
you do with it, and then theeffect it has over time.
But even, even the short answer,even if I was to say, Hey, um,
we're going to, you know, thatcounts as 5%, you know, against
your premium.
What if that's in an environmentwhere rates are going up by an
average of 8%, right.
Your rate has still gone up.

(38:21):
And, and from a, you know, abuyer's standpoint, that's a
very unsatisfying thing to say,well, I didn't, where's my five
points be like, well, it wasfive points off the eight that
it was going up.
so, you know, so that's alwaysa, a positioning challenge that
we have as in the insuranceindustry.
but the answer to your questionis it does all go into the mix.
And at Lancer, you know, most,most of the insureds we have in

(38:43):
pasture transportation, we goout and physically, uh, visit
them and inspect them and, andlook all that.
And that's a big, part of ourunderwriting.
And, you know, big forms, a bigpart of

Ken Lucci (38:53):
Well, you, your value add is better than anybody's in
the space.
I mean, you know, your guys whoare available.
You are, you're proactive.
And without naming any names, Iknow of a company that, that
you've insured for years thatactually did get a reduction
because they launched a massivesafety program two years ago.
It's, it's absolutely on fruitfor them.

(39:15):
Um, they record all theirsafety, meetings with their
staffing.
They document the hell out ofeverything.
They manage the telematics tothe point of bringing the
drivers in and giving them acorrective form.
This is what I'd like to see youchange.
So they're totally managing it.
It's to me and I, it to me it'slike almost like VIP medicine

(39:36):
where if you just go to yourdoctor once a year, you're
really not really managing yourhealth.
But if you're in a VIP healthprogram and you're seeing him
quarterly and you're doingtesting and he's giving you
advice and you're actuallyfollowing it, I think you can
massively affect.
the, future of the business, ifyou do go up, in in price,

(39:57):
you're not gonna go up.
Tremendous.
You're not gonna go up as muchas the next guy.
so in it, back to thatbrother-in-law, I mean, do you
think the space is still a goodspace?

James Blain (40:07):
or are you telling him to get out?

Tim Delaney (40:10):
I mean, it's a tough business, right?
No question.
you know, put it this way, wedon't do anything other than
insure transportation here atLance, so I'm probably biased,
right?
We're, we're into the end.
you know, what I would say Iworry about in, uh, let's focus
on, on passenger transportationis.

(40:30):
Uh, you know, I, like I said, wedon't control the costs.
We're just in charge of kind ofpooling them and reflecting them
back into the risk pool.
but it has been a long time, 14years, and some of the, you
know, the pricing, over theyears when I speak with our
insureds, you know, they're notlying when they say, you know,
this is, this is, this is veryhard for us, right?

(40:52):
This is creating a hugechallenge for the business.
So, what I worry about is, uh,insurance being one part, uh,
you know, fuel is always athing, but, um, the driver
shortage, right?
Where I think that put putsupward pressure on wages for
drivers, um, all, all thedifferent costs that are going

(41:13):
up for them.
At what point do we start tohit, you know, on that price
elasticity of demand curve,right?
Like, at what point do we startto break demand

Ken Lucci (41:22):
Oh, we're there.
We're

James Blain (41:23):
Oh, we're

Ken Lucci (41:23):
certain, we're there in certain segments, Uh, we are
absolutely there in sedans andSUVs because we lack efficiency
and we lack technology.
So in other words, if you couldget your sed if the sedan fleets
in the industry were connectedand we knew that in I'm empty in
LaGuardia and I'm empty for thenext three hours I'm available.

(41:44):
The other piece of the puzzle isit.
It is, it is.
But the good news is there areareas where the elasticity is
still, there's plenty of room,but it's being ruined by people
that don't know their financialsand they bid things low ball to
get the money off the table.
I'll give you one example.
is a corporate shuttle programwith a defense contractor we

(42:05):
helped up in, in, uh,Massachusetts where the operator
was kicked off because thecorporation checked his DOT and
his DOT was suspended.
And and when we, when they wentout to bid, they were shocked at
how expensive it was to getreally solid operators.
And I said, well, look what'simportant to you.

(42:27):
You know, you could, you'reputting 40 of your employees on
this shuttle bus.
Do you want a low ball number ordo you want the best provider in
the market that's got the bestlines, the best insurance, et
cetera?
You're gonna have to pay for it.
So there is some elasticity leftin and it's in the larger
equipment,

Tim Delaney (42:44):
Yeah.
And I, I think that thatmovement up the curve, you know,
is a, is a slow progression,right?
I mean, like certain, you know,like if you're, you know, uh, a
group from upstate New York,let's say, who wants to charter
a bus to bring a bunch of peopledown to a Broadway show in
Manhattan, I'm making up the,the prices.
But like, when that was 2000,you know, for that trip

(43:07):
everybody's in be like at 3000,you know, maybe it's, you know,
starts to break down a littlebit and at 5,000 they're not
gonna do it.
They're gonna take the train,they're gonna do something else.
And I feel like we're, we'rebiting away at the margins of
some of that stuff.
Um, and that's, anyway, that'swhat I, what I

James Blain (43:23):
Well, but I think, I think one of the big things
and, and being involved with,you know, the chauffer
transportation, uh, show forTransportation association in
Jersey, say that two times fastand Mike Rose and all the people
over there.
You know, I think one of theother big things that we're
dealing with is that we have alot of gypsy operations.
That are not carrying the rightlimits, that are not doing what

(43:44):
they're supposed to do, that arewilling to take those trips at a
much lower cost because they'renot having to pay for these
things to operate correctly.
And I think part of what happensthere is that kind of starts
pulling on and tugging on thebottom of the market and you
start getting an issue.
So I think, I think what wefound, and Ken, I think you'd
agree, I think we also kind ofseem to be in, in a storm, so to

(44:08):
speak, where you've got all ofthese different elements that
have all come together.
We have kind of your gypsyoperators, you've got kind of
what's happened with the claimsgoing up, all of it.
Yeah.
You've got Uber.
So I think one of the, one ofthe things that I would ask is,
you know, like most storms,hopefully it'll pass, but
sometimes they linger.
Is this something to where wesee this passing soon?

(44:32):
You know, and, and I, I knowthis is the the tough question
because everybody wants to givethe fun answer, but you know,
they've been going up for 14years.
As an operator, if you'retalking to that brother-in-law,
and again, you like thisbrother-in-law, um, are you
warning him of, Hey, I thinkit's gonna keep moving.
You better be ready, you betterstart planning for that to keep
moving.

(44:53):
Or do you see kind of an edge ofa storm or, or do you have kind
of hope that at some pointthat'll slow down,

Tim Delaney (45:01):
Well, I don't think I, I look at the environment as
something that's gonna pass,right?
It's something, you know, that'sdefinitely evolving.
So, you know, the question is,is there still money to be made?
And I think, um, I.
Uh, you know, a lot of guysthat, that you serve, uh, have
proven yes, right?
There's still parts of themarketplace, whether it's

(45:22):
corporate work or shuttles, towhere that high level of service
is needed.
And, and, and the, you know, theprice is, the price is right and
they can, they can still makemoney.
Um, and I think in order to, tocontinue that success, they have
to buttress that, you know, orsupport that with all the things
that we said with the driversand technology and, and, you

(45:42):
know, um, you know, all thethings that Ken has told
everybody about, you know,watching every penny, uh, is
another key part of theequation.
so yeah, I think, you know, the,the answer would almost be
different for a lot of companiesand, and markets.
But in the big picture, whatwe're talking about are the
luxury transportation providerswho I think have no doubt

(46:03):
proven, their staying powerthrough what was most, the most,
you know, insane.
period of COVID, right?
Like if you, if we can allsurvive that, we can survive
anything.
Right?
And, you know, you know thething that, the thing that you
would put out on the horizon,right?
Which I hate talking about, butyou, you know, you have to, is
like, all right, but, buteventually all the cars are

(46:23):
gonna be driving themselves,right?
And, and that's going on what,you know, probably 10, 12 years
of talk about it, and we'restill saying 10, 12 years, I, I
don't, you know, I don't, Idon't see any reason I would
leave a business now because ofthat.
Right.
I still think, there's a lot

James Blain (46:41):
No.
and even, even then, businesseswill evolve, right?
I don't see our industry goinganywhere.
Even with self-driving.

Ken Lucci (46:48):
Well, you have to evolve, right?
I mean, there's still guys thatbuild covered wagons and buggy
whips, but many of them, that'show most of the automotive
companies started, is they usedto be horse drawn carriage
companies.
But at the end of the day, thedisruption is also gonna come
shake out to opportunity.
To me, the most important thingis you have to be financially

(47:09):
viable to survive any of this.
You have to know your numbers,whether you're a$250,000
operator or a$25 millionoperator, you have to brace for
the storm, you know, uh, uh,owned water from property
before.
And at the end of the day, thevalues are still there, even
though the costs aretremendously high, meaning the

(47:31):
flood insurance, the windinsurance, you know, so, but at
the end of the day, you've gottabe profitable to do it.
So my answer when I talk tooperators is, you know, some
revenues just not, some tripsare just not worth doing.
You need to know your profitmargins and your cost structure,
and you need to make a decisionnot to move that piece of

(47:51):
equipment unless you are gonnahave a margin, gross margin of
x.
You know, I I, I have a greatoperator out in the, out in the,
the Midwest whose motor coaches,you know, sit in the wintertime
a little bit.
I'm like, well, you get a coupleof choices.
You could, you could certainlymove them to southern climates.
You know, there, there arepeople in Arizona looking for'em

(48:11):
all the time.
I said, but if you put them outto your same client in January
for 40% discount, you don'tthink they're gonna be looking
for that discount in June.

Tim Delaney (48:23):
Right.

Ken Lucci (48:24):
So, and at the end of the day, you're gonna put out a
56 passenger mini bus motorcoach that you said you spent
600 K for.
You're gonna put it out forthat.
And all that has to happen isyour driver has to swipe one of
those doors and you're talkingabout a$20,000 loss.
You you can't move a piece ofequipment for the sake of moving
it.
You have to move it profitablyall the time.

Tim Delaney (48:45):
Yep.

Ken Lucci (48:47):
So, you know, we've hit, we've, we've touched on a
lot.
Okay?
And number one, we wanted you onhere because let's face it,
Lancer is the best in thebusiness.
You've got the staying power inthe business.
You also have a tremendouscommitment to the industry.
So, you know, for all theoperators out there, number one,

(49:07):
don't blame your insurancecarrier or your insurance
broker.
Now, having said that, there arebrokers that work extremely hard
for their clients.
You need one of those,

James Blain (49:18):
Yeah, the, the broker makes a big difference,
right?
Just because a guy writes yourhome auto does not mean he has
any

Ken Lucci (49:25):
right?
But your team, your team isincredibly responsive.
So you need an incrediblyresponsive insurance partner.
But understand the, thereasoning that the, the
commercial insurance is going upis.
The tot lack of tort reform, thenuclear verdicts, the cost of

(49:45):
repairing equipment.
So at the end of the day, if youas an operator are concerned
about making a living, I don'tthink you have a choice but to
put on that Apple watch, cutdown the cholesterol and and
manage your blood pressure.
And to me, even a few caroperators should have telematics
and he should be managing it andthey should be documenting the

(50:09):
fact that they know what theirstats are.
Okay?
Because to your point, thelawyers are really
sophisticated.
They're gonna ask you thequestion whether you have
cameras and telematics, isn't italmost worse to have them and
not use them because it could beused against you in court.

Tim Delaney (50:28):
It is, it is, it's definitely worse.
but in the big picture, youknow, uh, 15 years ago, or even
20 years ago when, you know,drive cam started and, you know,
we made a big push to get thoseout.
and then all the iterations thatcame since we've, you know,
it's, nobody can know everyproduct that's out there, but we
try to stay up to date on, youknow, what all the different

(50:50):
systems do.
You know, even seven or eightyears ago, It was big for us to
see that somebody was willing toinvest in that and be worried,
you know, be, be worried enoughabout claims to do that.
I, I, I would say, if you don'twanna describe it this way now,
you will have to within a coupleyears, like, if you're not
utilizing all of that stuff,from a safety standpoint, at the

(51:11):
very least cameras, andpotentially telematics to, to
manage everybody's behavior, youmight not be able to get
insurance at a certain point.

Ken Lucci (51:19):
I think it's coming down to that, isn't it?

James Blain (51:22):
Well, and I think,

Tim Delaney (51:24):
So it, it's, it's becoming more of a survival
thing than, you know, than likea, a luxury of, of, uh, safety
management.

James Blain (51:31):
I think the other side of that though, and this is
something I see all the time, isI think a lot of people like the
idea of, I'm gonna put intelematics and everything's
gonna be better.
Right.
And I think, you know, when we,when we talk to people about
their safety programs and we'rehelping design safety programs,
we look at it through a threepiece lens.
The world that we live in of thetraining is the only proactive

(51:55):
world you have a camera.
Telematics can only tell youwhat is actually happening or
happened on the road, and I tellpeople all the time, you know
it's great that you have a videoof how that driver crashed.
It's horrible.
You didn't train him well.
So he could have avoided it,right?
And so I think at least in ourworld, we always tell people

(52:15):
you've got kind of these, thesedifferent areas that you live
in.
And where we found the mosteffective companies, and, and
Tim, I'm sure you've seen thesame thing, the ones that have
been most effectively able tomanage things are the ones that
have that proactive approach of,we're gonna implement a training
program, we're gonna do exactlywhat we need, and then we're
gonna use those telematics,those cameras really as our

(52:38):
gameplay footage, right?
Best teams in the world.
What do they do?
As soon as the Friday nightlights turn off right there to
the cameras.
Okay.
What do we get right?
What do we get wrong?
How do we adjust our training?
How do we change practice nextweek to fix it?

Ken Lucci (52:51):
They they make safety muscle memory.
They

James Blain (52:53):
They make safety muscle memory.
So I guess the, the other thingfor me is I think there's so
many people, and I'm gonna giveyou a compliment, Tim, you guys
do an incredible job of thisbecause you guys, you know, a
lot of people think, oh, well,my insurance company wants to
look at my safety program.
They're just looking for whatI'm getting wrong.
Your people, when they come inand they're doing these safety

(53:15):
audits, are giving them advice,are helping them put programs in
place, are helping'em do thingsright?
You know, I, I've gotten severalemails where it's, Hey, you
know, I, you know, we, we metwith an operator they'd be
interested in doing with this.
Um, we'd love to have you helpthem with X, Y, Z.
Here's a warm introduction towhere they're taking steps to
help that company run better.

(53:36):
I think that really kind of setsin my mind the right trend for
the industry and that we seeoperators with this idea of, oh,
well if I report anything to theinsurance company, if I do
anything at all, everything'sgonna adjust my rate.
But I wanted to compliment youand that your team does a really
good job in advocating andworking with them.
And I'd like to give you asecond if you would tell us a

(53:58):
little bit about kind of thatprocess and some of the
resources and the things youguys do, because it truly is
something that sets Lancerapart.

Ken Lucci (54:06):
Yeah.

Tim Delaney (54:07):
Well, there's a bunch of stuff there.
You know, we have a, a big, uh,team of loss control folks
around the country.
Um, and we believe, uh,sincerely that when you partner
with somebody as an insurancecompany, right, we're selling
you a promise that we're gonnabe around to pay those claims.
And, and, um.

(54:29):
And handle those claimscompetently.
transportation is unique inthat, you know, it's, it's
highly regulated.
It's a type of insurance thatgets used a lot, right?
And, um, and it's customerfacing, which are all, are all
tough dynamics compared to a lotof different industries.
So, you know, all the valueadded services that we offer all

(54:49):
of those people out in thefield.
They're doing two things.
You know, they are there togather information, you know,
for us, like, do you havecameras?
Yes or no?
Do you have a safety program?
Do you have, you know, there's,um, a lot of simple things.
Are you compliant, you know,with government regulations,
that's a nice, you know, box tocheck sometimes.
so, so,

Ken Lucci (55:09):
You'd think.

Tim Delaney (55:10):
right.
So there's simple things likethat, but there's other parts to
it, right?
Um, because we get to interactwith so many transportation
companies and see best practicesat, at what works at one versus
versus another and everythingelse, you know, we have a unique
ability to share that, right?
And spread that amongst ourinsured base.
Uh, all the lessons that we'velearned over time.

(55:31):
Most of those lessons learnedthrough some pretty heavy scar
tissue, by the way.
Um, so, you know, why would we,why wouldn't we share that value
with everybody that we have whenit's, you know, it serves both
of our interests in keepingkeeping claims down.
and then, you know, the lastpart of it is.
you know, insurance is anunsatisfying product to buy,

(55:51):
right?
It's something you buy that youhope you never use.
so, uh, the relationship comesinto that in, in a big way,
right?
Because you might have aninsured who, uh, you know,
doesn't have any claims for abunch of years, and then has a
big one.
And when you, when you have,when you have a bad claim, and
your company and your personalassets are at risk, that's a
really bad day, you wannaactually have a, a face to put

(56:13):
to that, to know who to call andhave confidence that when you
call, they're gonna show up and,and handle it and protect those
assets and your, your firm'sreputation and your people, and
all that stuff.
So we try to build that bridgeearly on before the claim
happens.
so that when we do, when, whenit does happen, everything, you
know, runs seamlessly.
And for, for a line of insurancethat gets used as much as, as

(56:36):
auto and, and for as much of acrisis as some of the big claims
can be.
you know, we've just found overtime.
It doesn't work as well anyway,any other way.
Right.
And the only thing I would addto that, is that, you know, our,
our claims handling is, youknow, one thing we didn't
really, touch on, which isprobably the most important

(56:57):
thing of anything in terms ofsurvival for the long term.
Um, you know, the same way theseguys have to, uh, constantly
evolve in technology they useand, and managing their fleets
and everything.
We have to constantly evolve,uh, to combat the plaintiff's
bar on all these claims.
Right?
So, um, that's a longconversation in itself, but

(57:18):
that's, that's what we spend alot of time on and a lot it,
it's moving into data analyticsand, and AI and all that stuff
now, but, that side of the fenceis, is evolving just as fast, as
all the other things that we'retalking about.
and, and has to in order, inorder to stay in it for the long
term.

Ken Lucci (57:36):
Listen, which no dose you are, there have been the
carriers that have come andgone, and you guys are the, the,
the, the, castle in the, in theindustry, and So let's just wrap
up a couple of things.
You know, for if you're anoperator out there, this is a
must do, not a, not a, not a,not a nice to have.
This is a must do.

(57:56):
is go all, go all in on safety,make it a part of your culture,
as James said.
Make it muscle memory.
Don't just check off the boxwith telematics and cameras.
Use all of the tools on a dailybasis.
You know, the last thing Iwanted to say is safety cells.
If you have a client and you'redoing a client presentation and

(58:17):
you are able to show all of thefive star things you do across
the board on safety and duty ofcare, and you're actually able
to show documentation from thetelematics system on safe
driving and the things thatyou've improved in your
business, that stuff sells tothe right client.
If you are dealing with a clientthat all they want is low price

(58:40):
and they don't care about thesafety of your, of their
employees or their guests ortheir association members, I
think you ought to think aboutnot doing business with them.
And, and safety is one of thevalue propositions that 100%
sells, and we own it in thespace.
So, um, I think everybody outthere from an operator

(59:01):
perspective needs to understandthat if you are a safe provider
and you are doing all of theright things and using all the
tools, the results will bearfruit.
And the most, corporate clientsthat pay the most, or clients in
general that appreciate valueare gonna take you more
seriously than a, than a fly bynight operator.

Tim Delaney (59:24):
I agree completely.
I, you know, I would add, toanybody watching, you have to be
very careful not to guaranteesafety, right?
Because that's not a thing inthe world.
But, but highlighting all of thepreventative steps that you
take, are, are, are really whatare, what distinguishing you
from the lower end of the marketand, and, you know, uh, uh, the
other options that people havefor transportation.

(59:46):
So I agree with that completely.

James Blain (59:49):
Tim, I think we're gonna have to have you back on
my friend, because

Ken Lucci (59:51):
At least once

James Blain (59:52):
we, we've got at least 10 more topics.
We could probably spend anotherhour on each, so.

Tim Delaney (59:58):
any time I'm, I'm in.
I appreciate you guys having meand I really appreciate.
Uh, everything you guys push outinto the market message wise,
through this avenue and alsothrough the businesses that that
you guys have, so

James Blain (01:00:11):
Well, we appreciate you just as much, Tim.

Ken Lucci (01:00:14):
All we try to do is the same thing you guys do, Tim.
It's add value.
That's all we try to do.
And, and, and, hopefully the,hopefully the operators, you
know, that, that have got theirwealth tied up and they are,
they really take this industryseriously.
Will, will listen.
So thanks again for, uh, forjoining us today.
Thank you for listening to theground transportation podcast.

(01:00:37):
If you enjoyed this episode,please remember to subscribe to
the show on apple, Spotify,YouTube, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
For more information about PAXtraining and to contact James,
go to PAX training.com.
And for more information aboutdriving transactions and to
contact Ken, Go to drivingtransactions.com.

(01:00:58):
We'll see you next time on theground transportation podcast.