Restorative Justice, Real Healing: A Conversation with Professor Marie Keenan

In this powerful and deeply emotional episode of Having the Chats with Peter & Sophia, we sit down with Professor Marie Keenan.

World-renowned restorative justice practitioner, psychotherapist, and researcher.

Together, we explore the life-changing impact of restorative justice in cases of sexual violence.

Sophia shares her own transformative journey of sitting face-to-face with her father in a restorative process that became a turning point in her healing.

Peter opens up about how that experience changed his own understanding of justice and humanity.

Professor Keenan offers profound insight into how restorative justice challenges conventional legal systems, centers the voice of the survivor, and facilitates deep accountability and healing, even in the most complex and painful circumstances.

This episode is not only a conversation, it’s an invitation to rethink justice, healing, and what it means to take our power back.

Trigger Warning: This episode includes discussion of sexual violence, trauma, and personal stories of abuse. Please listen with care.

📚 Professor Keenan’s book Sexual Violence and Restorative Justice: Addressing the Justice Gap is available free online — https://www.researchgate.net/publication/380756032_Sexual_Violence_and_Restorative_Justice_Addressing_the_Justice_Gap

Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share to help these vital conversations reach those who need them.

Episode Transcript

(00:08):
They had been abused by their father, father now deceased, and
they believed that the mother had known a lot about it and
hadn't done. It I really had a spiritual
awakening sitting in that room like.
Many victim survivors are traumatized by the very justice
process itself. Turned around to the daughter
and said if daddy heard what youwere saying he'd turn in his

(00:30):
grave. Someone to listen to that they
think how the hell is that possible?
Most people never sit across from the person who harmed them.
I did, in a prison I set across from my father to do a sort of
justice. And the woman who made that
possible is here with us today, Professor Marie Keenan.
Marie is a restorative justice practitioner, psychotherapist

(00:51):
and a researcher based in Dublin.
She's worked for decades with survivors, with offenders and
with justice systems across the world.
She's her career spans multiple different disciplines and
modalities, which is really interesting.
And we're very, very blessed andgrateful to have her here today.
Thank you for coming, Marie. Thanks Marie for joining us in
our podcast. It means a lot.

(01:13):
I've been really looking forwardto having you on because you've
been such like a big part in my healing journey.
You came along with me obviouslyto do there was sort of justice
with my father back in 2023, October 23, and we were talking
about it for a while. We got in contact at the start
of COVID and obviously it didn'thappen in that time because I
obviously wasn't ready. I was still battling addiction,

(01:36):
and then my sister passed away in the meantime, and I think the
timing of it was really, really perfect for me in so many ways.
So before we go into my visit with my father, could you give
us an explanation of what restorative justice is?
Yeah, thanks very, very much. First of all, for having me.
It's a privilege really, to be here.

(01:57):
So restorative justice is basically a philosophy.
People think it's just about practices and processes, but
it's a philosophy. It's a way of trying to repair
harm following very significant crime.
And that's what it's about. And if we start thinking about

(02:19):
not who did it and what happenedas much as who's responsible for
the harm that was caused and who's responsible for repairing
the harm, then our lens is very different on crime and on what
happens. So restorative justice is a

(02:40):
philosophy that pays attention to crime, doesn't minimise or
undermine in any way the devastation of it, but gets very
interested not only in what happened, IE looking backwards,
but is very interested in looking forward.
How can healing take place? How can justice take place?

(03:02):
And what needs to happen for justice to take place and what
needs to happen? Who needs to repair that arm and
how? What needs to be put in place
for the healing to take place? So out of that philosophy then
comes a number of practices and processes.
And so that's what restorative justice is.

(03:23):
So if someone's listening to this and someone's listening to
your explanation there and they were of the mindset or the
opinion that justice and healingcan't can't coincide, what would
you say to that? Like so for someone for a
survivor to get justice and to have healing from the
devastation, devastational impact that that an an abuse or

(03:44):
ending that is carried the crimehas occurred like some people
would think they can't coincide.Yes, that's right.
Some people see that. So the first thing I'd say is
that our old thinking about justice is only about jailing
offenders or prosecuting offenders is really not what
survivors are telling us is their view of justice.

(04:08):
For what survivors are telling us is this some that they have a
myriad of different justice interests or needs and they're
very different for different people.
So some people want to exercise voice, to be able to tell their
story, to have it heard, to haveit recognised.

(04:29):
Some want acknowledgement, some want validation, some want the
perpetrator to be held accountable, some want redress,
some want all sorts of things and no one just justice
mechanism can address all those needs.
So in restorative justice, it still is the case that many

(04:54):
victims will still want to go tothe criminal justice system.
But what we know from practice, from research, from watching
newspapers, reading, seeing on television, we know that many
victim survivors are traumatisedby the very justice process
itself. So we have had to think about

(05:16):
are there other mechanisms available that isn't
traumatising but that can still bring justice outcomes for
victims. So what restorative justice can
do is it can certainly bring bring justice in terms of
accountability, in terms of acknowledgement, in terms of

(05:36):
exercise voice, in terms of organising redress, all of
those. It cannot jail perpetrators.
Restorative justice cannot do that.
The mechanism doesn't allow the only place that can punish
offenders through an imprisonment is the criminal
justice system. So if someone wants, if their

(05:59):
understanding is that they want their person punished by means
of a criminal prosecution, meaning and resulting in a a
jail sentence, then the root forthat is the criminal justice
system with all its faults. But many survivors don't
necessarily see that as their big ask.

(06:21):
They want accountability, but the accountability they want is
for their person, whoever it is,the uncle, grandfather, father,
to sit in front of them, to own what they did, to acknowledge
what they did and so on and so forth.
And some survivors want both, and both are perfectly possible
to get the restorative justice and to get the criminal justice.

(06:45):
So I don't agree. I, I, I disagree that justice
and healing cannot take place inthe same venue in the same
circumstance. It is perfectly possible for
justice and healing to take place in a restorative process,
but it depends on your understanding of justice.

(07:05):
Yeah. Do you, do you, Do you think the
system we have set in Ireland atthe moment is aligned with
survivors or even in any way helpful for survivors?
Look, let's be really clear. Let's go to to the base camp.
The criminal justice system is there to gather evidence and

(07:31):
punish wrongdoing. The criminal justice system is
largely about the perpetrator. To the extent that it helps a
victim survivor. When such things happen to a
perpetrator, that's almost incidental to the process.

(07:54):
So whilst over years things haveimproved in the criminal justice
system for survivors, largely because of the Victim Directive
and Victims of Crime Act, that now requires that the court pay
some attention to victim survivors and also the victim
impact statement. The courts are still really

(08:19):
hostile places for victim survivors, particularly of all
sorts of crime, particularly of sexual crime, domestic violence,
interpersonal crime. They're really hostile places
for victims. And a number of years ago one of
our ministers for justice said I'm going to make the criminal

(08:41):
justice system victim centred. That is maybe aspirational, but
it is unlikely to happen becauseit we can tinker around the
edges, we can make it better. Can we make it better?
Absolutely. We could have special courts for
sexual crime where all judges, all legal professionals,

(09:04):
everybody is completely trauma informed.
In order to work in the place, the receptionist, the person,
the Porter, everybody has to be trauma informed.
So we could do that. But in essence, and it's not
well understood outside of legalcircles circles in essence, the
criminal justice system is aboutoffenders or accused persons

(09:29):
until or unless they're found guilty.
Do you think restorative justicecan help, not change that, but
just help with it, help survivors with it?
Do you think it's got a place tobring some help to it like?
Yes, I do because you see, it's not like they're they they, they

(09:51):
can be in relationship restorative justice and criminal
justice. In fact, in serious crime, they
have to be in relationship because you couldn't have, so to
speak, a group of do gooders, we'll call them over there to
the right doing restorative justice on very serious crime

(10:11):
that law enforcement don't know about.
You know that there is no legal kind of umbrella for this and so
on. That's not a good plan either.
So we need definitely a service or services that comes under the
umbrella of the justice system, but that has options for victim,

(10:36):
survivors and then accused parties of the various
possibilities for them. But included in that have to be
good legal protections for everybody, well trained staff
legislated for perhaps, but where then all that happens in

(11:01):
restorative processes? Can there is a mechanism to
inform legal systems that help change their culture, too?
If I were to say one thing aboutcriminal justice, I've said I've
said one major thing that that is largely that it's a hostile
place for victims. But the second thing I would say

(11:24):
is that legal culture needs to change.
I'd agree with that. I've seen it first hand.
I watched it happen, so I'm going to hit you with loads of
questions, so I'm sorry about that.
I'm curious right now. I'm, I'm with Sophia and she's
my partner and I got experience and hearing the benefit of what

(11:48):
restorative justice has done forher, for her as a person and for
her on her journey of healing. I'll be honest, before I heard
this and before I had conversations and discussions
with Sophia, I would have been of a different mindset.
I would have been oh, no way. Like he couldn't do that.
Don't put though that's that's unfair.

(12:08):
I would have seen restorative justice as perpetrator
orientated. I would have seen it as almost
re traumatizing a survivor. That's just I didn't have
knowledge. I I was yeah, he was ignorant to
the the process. What would you say to people
with the mindset that I've just like explained there?

(12:29):
My old mindset now, I only managed to change that mindset
with talking to Sevilla and understanding the process,
understanding what she went through and even more so seeing
what it's actually done for her life like and the change in it.
How could we change that mindset?
So the first thing I would say is that it is understandable

(12:49):
that that is the view you had because when restores of justice
as a movement, let's say as a form of justice started to be
reintroduced in, in Australia, in in New Zealand, in Canada, in
Europe, in Ireland, the cohort of people who were largely

(13:14):
focused on were young offenders.Northern Ireland for example,
young offenders. And restorative justice was seen
as a way of not criminalising necessarily those young people,
but giving them an opportunity to do something honourable with
regard to the victims that they had stolen that bike from or

(13:37):
robbed that shop or whatever. And it it really was taken up
largely to do with youth crime and youth offenders.
Now that that is accepted acrossthe world, that restorative
justice for youth crime is really effective and helpful and

(14:00):
established. But when I came to this and
started to explore restorative justice because I saw the gaps
in injustice provision for victims.
I saw the trauma and retraumatisation that was taking
place in the courts for victims.I saw why many victims wouldn't

(14:21):
report because they didn't want that.
And I came to restorative justice not on my own with many
others. We started to say this is there
is great potential here and it wasn't only us.
People had been doing it for decades but not writing about
it. But this has potential with

(14:43):
sexual crime. But the lens needs to shift.
This cannot be offender focused.This has to be victim focused.
But within an umbrella of respect for the dignity of all
parties and the personhood and humanity of all parties.

(15:04):
So whilst in the early days the way it was taken up was for
young people, young offenders totry and help them, now in more
serious crime that cannot be theway that it is offender focused.
It has to be, you know, I've written a book about this and
you can put up the link. The book is called Sexual

(15:26):
Violence and Restorative Justice, Addressing the Justice
Gap. We'll put a link up for that.
Do and it's available free for download and whatever.
Everyone likes a freebie. Yeah.
Well, it's free, but we, we, we did for that, for that book, we
did a study across the globe, everywhere there was restorative

(15:48):
justice happening in sexual violence cases.
We wanted to know about it and we learned lots of things, but
we also learned that it cannot be offender focused.
It has to start with the victim.If the victim wants it, then we
are obligated to make it happen.But to make it happen safely by

(16:09):
including obviously the perpetrator if, if he is
willing, he or she is willing. But it has to be victim focused
within an umbrella of respect for all parties.
So that's what I'd say to the people who are nervous and
skeptical. You're right to be if it's, if
it's that old style, but it's, it's the restorative justice has

(16:32):
moved a long way from it's earlybeginnings.
And in fact, it's used in a lot of very serious crime throughout
the globe now and homicide and and so on and so forth.
And I think on that, like on that point there, that's why a
lot of people miss out on something so powerful as resort
of justice because they don't realize what way it's done,

(16:53):
especially with the sexual violence.
Like as you said, when you go into a courtroom and stuff, it's
petrifying. So like, why would a person's
not going to think, well, I'm going to put myself through that
again and hopefully I'll get some good from it.
And also it's like that needs to, as you say, that needs to be
changed because I was shown so much respect, so much care, so
much empathy by everybody from the get go to do the restorative

(17:16):
justice. And you were constantly checking
in with me. Emma was constantly checking in.
Do you know what it was? It personally, it was completely
a lot more different than what Ithought it would be.
I wasn't expecting it to be. I was nervous going into the
prison, obviously because of what I was doing and stuff.
But once we sat in that room together, it was, it wasn't like

(17:40):
this horrific thing you think isgoing to happen.
It was one of the most beautifulexperiences of my life as and I
know, like I was going to say that might sound mad, but it
doesn't because that's the way it was for me.
Because that wasn't just my perpetrator.
That was my father. And that wasn't just me.
That was little me also sitting in that room.
And I felt safe with you there. I felt safe with Emma there.

(18:02):
And my father had the priest, I can't remember the chaplain
there. And like, even though I was well
prepared going into this, nothing had me prepared for what
it was and what I got from it. I went in there feeling like I
had to be angry. I went in there feeling like I

(18:22):
had to be aggressive towards them.
I had this letter written out and I got halfway through it and
I couldn't read anymore because it's not how I felt.
It's how I felt when I was writing it, but it wasn't how I
felt when I was sitting in that room.
And I remember halfway through, you asked for a break because I
didn't know what way I should beturning.

(18:43):
I didn't know whether to be angry or whether to be sad or
whether to show love. And we had a little word outside
the room. And you just reassured me and
told me, like, just get my pointacross and ask the questions I
wanted. And when I went back into the
room, it's like I left that person of me outside that
initially came in with me to start getting ready to be angry

(19:05):
and sad. And it was so full of love.
I really had a spiritual awakening sitting in that room
like an to hear my father like say sorry and take
responsibility for what he done it like that little girl inside

(19:26):
me got such a big hug from me that day, like it was powerful.
And to feel forgiveness for him.I was carrying around pain,
shame, guilt that wasn't mine tocarry.
And he took them back without even realizing.
He was taking them back by the words that he said to me.
And I remember even you said at the time, like, there's so much

(19:46):
love in this room. And when it's the kind of case
it is and the stuff that happened, it nearly reassured me
hearing someone else say that there was love in the room, that
it was OK for me to say that there was love in the room.
Does that make sense? Yeah.
Yeah. And like I do often talk to you

(20:07):
about a Peter and I do say like there is no words in the world
that I can use to say what that day done for me.
It like it changed my life in somany ways.
And I'm so grateful to you for that and for guiding me on that
process because it's really beena big, major part of my healing

(20:31):
journey. You see what what what you've
said and what Peter said is a lot of people don't understand
in advance of what of the potential power of restorative
justice. So let me just say a couple of
things. I think there is a need for a
public education campaign about the possibilities and power of

(20:55):
restorative justice in sexual violence cases.
I've interviewed judges and barristers and solicitors and
professionals of all persuasionsin this country who don't know
the first thing about restorative justice in sexual
violence cases or how it could work or how it could be

(21:17):
possible. So there is absolutely need for
a public education campaign to let people know of the potential
and the power here. Second, families often are
worried about their their victimsurvivor.
And they will often be nervous and say, why would you want to

(21:39):
put yourself in the same room asthe person who has harmed you so
badly? Why would you want to do that?
And I understand that, you know,they want to protect.
But what we need to do all the time is go to the victim first
and listen to what the victim wants or the victim survivor

(22:04):
wants. So professionals, and I've been
and I am one myself, we're guilty of thinking we know
better than than the survivor ofwhat they want.
Families, we can be guilty of knowing better than what the
survivor wants. So if the survivor is telling

(22:28):
us, it would be helpful to me tomeet him either face to face or
through some other mechanisms, video or shuttle mechanisms.
There are multiple ways of doingit, but face to face is the most
powerful. Then to my mind, as a

(22:50):
professional with the requisite skill, I feel obligated
ethically to turn heaven, to make that possible for that
survivor, not to try to tell theperson, oh, it's not in your
interest to do that. If they're telling me it would
be helpful to me. I want to make it safe.

(23:12):
I want to have a process that would be very safe for all
parties, but I want to make it possible.
So in order to do that, then we have, you know, a number of of
kind of processes and and procedures and so on that and I
can explain a little about those.
But it's really important that these processes are tied, are

(23:37):
now tried and tested and we can do them very safely, but with
the survivor voice at the centre.
And in my experience and my research, some victim survivors
of sexual violence want to ask questions.
Why did you do it to me? Why me?

(24:01):
Very, very specific, little details.
Why did you do that on that night when mum was at bingo?
Like very, very specific things.Why did you make me have a
shower before mum came home? We were like very specific
things. So some survivors want to ask
questions, some survivors want to make statements.

(24:24):
I would like to tell you the impact of this on me.
Or I would like to tell you, despite your best efforts to
destroy me, you didn't. I have thrived and survived in
this way. So some survivors want to ask
questions, some survivors want to make statements, and some
survivors don't want to make askquestions.

(24:46):
And when you ask would you like to ask any questions in the
preparation, they say, no, I wouldn't.
I don't want to ask him why he did it.
I know bloody well why he did it.
He did it because whatever. But sometimes some survivors
say, I know the answer to the question, but I still want to
put it to him to see him answer it from his own mouth.

(25:10):
So I want to say, why did you doit and why did you do it to me?
Because I want to see what he says, not because I need the
answer to that question, becauseI have lived with the answer,
but I want to put it that way. So some survivors ask, wants to
ask questions, someone to make statements.
Some don't want to do either. They want to just see what he

(25:33):
has to say or so on and so forth.
The key about all this is that it's about shifting power.
Sexual violence is all about taking power.
I mean, there are multiple ways of looking at it, but that
little girl's power is taken from her.

(25:55):
Daddy comes and daddy says we'regoing upstairs.
Or daddy coughs and we know that's the sign to go upstairs
or whatever. Or mummy goes to bingo, or mummy
goes to somewhere and we know this is going to happen.
I had a male survivor, a young beautiful man who, and for him
the trigger was always his father would say I need a new

(26:19):
hankie in the days when people had cloth handkerchiefs.
And he'd say to the young fellow, will you go up and get
me a handkerchief? And he would go up and he
couldn't find the handkerchief the first time.
And the father came up the stairs, Maria, to help him find
the handkerchief and abuse that boy for the first time upstairs
with his mother and the rest of the kids downstairs.
And every time subsequent to that, that father wanted to

(26:43):
abuse that boy, he'd say, will you go upstairs and get me a
hanky? And the boy knew what was
coming. I was going to ask because when
we're talking about this and when you're talking about this,
it's mainly, it's predominantly you're addressing, it's female,
it's the little girl, it's this.I'm glad you said that, that
about the man, about that littleboy.
Have you managed to facilitate many restorative justice

(27:05):
processes where men are involvedas their survivor?
Yes, I have facilitated a numberwhere men are where within a
family there is actually the perpetrator and, and the victims
and they're all male. So like families are complicated

(27:27):
as we know and families come in all shapes and sizes and
whatever. But yes, and a lot of my
professional life has been with male victims as well as female
victims. And a lot of my professional
life has been with with male perpetrators and a smaller
number of female perpetrators. But, you know, gender is
important when we make big policy statements because we

(27:48):
know more of females ever and, you know, in terms of domestic
violence, more females and so on.
But children are children. Yeah.
But is male or female. And I, I don't like the male,
you know, the gender distinctionwhen it comes to children who
have experienced sexual violence.
They're all children, whether they're a six foot foot as I've

(28:10):
had 6 foot odd policeman who is a victim.
Yeah, you know, trying to to, tofind a way forward to navigate
life from the the child victimisation that he suffered.
So yes, is, is, is the answer. Thanks Peter for that.
Because it's it's boys and girls.

(28:33):
Do you find? Male and female.
Do you find that the setup that we have that, oh, I don't know
how to put this, but the way, the way sexual violence is
spoken about, do you think that it's, it's addressed in a way
that's easy for men to come forward?
It's definitely not not addressed in a way for men to

(28:53):
come forward. I mean, if you're a perpetrator
of some of call it sexual crime or even where you're not sure if
it's a crime where there was a lot of alcohol and who who, you

(29:14):
know, was it a crime? Always a crime, blurred lines
and all that. The last thing you'd want to be
doing in the current system is saying I crossed a line there or
I took advantage of you or whatever, because because the
system rushes in or potentially rushes in to criminalize

(29:38):
everything. And once matters are
criminalised and so on, some of the other conversations that
need to take place are shut down.
And so some people in, in just finished a, a project in the
book on historical institutionalabuse.

(30:01):
And one of the things and, and this was across modern baby
homes, mags and laundries, industrial reformatory schools,
the military in in Ireland, multiple sources.
And one of the big findings there, I mean, there were
multiple, multiple findings, butpeople said when the lawyers
come to town, dialogue stops. So this is not lawyer bashing,

(30:28):
but it is something about that once law and lawyers and
criminalizing matters become theonly game in town, lots and lots
and lots of harmed people. Victims get no justice

(30:50):
whatsoever because they see the trauma of other people in the
courts. I'm not saying that people
shouldn't come forward if they want to come forward.
I mean, if a crime is committed,they, you know, it's their right
to come forward. If that's but many look and they
say no, why? Why would I do that?

(31:12):
Why would I put myself through that?
I don't want my grandfather jailed, but I definitely want my
grandfather to take responsibility and I want my
granny not to have the grandchildren around him.
And I want my family to stand upwith him and to say this was
wrong, what you did to Mary or Ursula or whoever.

(31:34):
So there's a lot of need for conversation that sometimes is
closed down when the matters become highly legalistic.
So with that and with your mind,so for so there's a system set

(31:55):
up right and the Rape Crisis centres are there and there's
all of this now, I've only recently learned after doing a
piece with male Rape Crisis center that they're there for
men. Like I had no idea about that.
Not a notion that's not a publicized or advertised or
ending. When we talk about sexual
violence, sexual abuse, we always, well personally, not

(32:18):
even personally, but just in themedia, how much you see it does
seem to be male and female violence, male and female abuse.
You don't really hear of male abuse as male and male.
You don't hear a lot about is iteasy for a man to come forward?
Is it easy? Is the system set up where a man

(32:40):
can actually come forward and feel OK about it in a system
that re traumatizes the survivor?
Look, females will say some. Some female survivors will say,
look at the time, say, of the clerical sexual abuse scandals,
a lot of the survivors who were speaking publicly were male.

(33:04):
And some female survivors were saying, it's very interesting
that we have been females suffering for a long time and
now all the attention is on to the issue of male abuse.
But I'm not sure that is totallythe whole story because
certainly some men have told me that it is.

(33:27):
Well, females told me this too, but that is really difficult to
come forward. For some time.
Some men said if they came forward, they were wondering
were they being looked at as a suspect rather than as a victim.
Now victims find it difficult. Females find it difficult to
come forward, fear of being believed.

(33:49):
That applies across the board, you know.
So there are lots and lots and lots of areas common to both.
But I just think when it's children involved it didn't,
doesn't matter about the gender of the child.
But I think the police have donea lot of good work in Ireland in
really trying to be victim sensitive and victim focused

(34:13):
when it comes to serious crime with the National protection
services units. They've those men are and women
are generally highly skilled. But the problem is she there
isn't enough staff. Then they're promoted out.
You know the places aren't filled and then your regular

(34:33):
sexual violence, so to speak, isgoes into the national
protection unit. Then we'll go back out to the
frontline guard who maybe not asexperienced.
So the key is the more specialist you have within
Ongardashe Ikana, the more specialist you have within the
judiciary, the more specialist you have within the legal

(34:56):
professions, the better the likely outcome for victims and
and offenders. But restorative justice can can
be part of that. Do you?
Think we'll ever get to a point where that's the case?
Well, I hope so. Like, I mean, I don't think we

(35:18):
will fundamentally change the criminal justice system.
I think we can make it better, but I don't think we can
fundamentally change it. Someone, a student, a very
mature student, told me there's one way you could change it,
which is by referendum of the people.
But look, that's not going to happen to change the criminal

(35:39):
justice system. It is there about gathering
evidence and trying offenders oraccused persons and then
punishing offenders. But but we can make it better,
but we can bring in additional mechanisms to work in tandem.
And I think there's a role for the DPP here, for instance.

(36:02):
So even if a victim reports a case and the guardian
investigated and it goes to the director, I think there is a
role for the director's office to have a very serious think
about is this case going to go forward for trial or would there
be a better way that might servethe parties better that is still

(36:26):
under a legal umbrella but that could be rerouted to restorative
justice with conditions. Then if you know, if the person
didn't adhere, so for instance, an offender, a sexual offender
who went the restorative justiceroute, let's say in theory the

(36:46):
DPP was to decide instead of sending it forward for trial.
I'm going to engage with both sets of solicitors and see would
it be in the interest of the parties to go a restorative
justice route? One of the specifications as the
restorative justice route could be that that offender has to go

(37:07):
for therapy for, for the sex offending therapy and you know,
other conditions attached to thething.
And if they weren't met, then the case could be reentered.
So there are lots. So that's one way in the DPP.
The other way is there are lots of cases that don't get beyond
the DPP into the court, into proceedings at all.

(37:30):
And that means then that that victim gets a call from the
Guards or a visit from the Gardato say the case is not
proceeding. So all of those cases could be
considered for a restorative process where the man might be
not pleading guilty if it's in acourt, but may be willing in a

(37:55):
different forum to take responsibility, which is a
different matter than a kind of a, a legal guilt.
Because in a restorative process, 1 cannot obviously
impose prison sentences. But you lots of conditions can
be agreed between the parties and that can be even rubber
stamped by a court if need be. So a little bit of blue sky

(38:20):
thinking, a little bit of creativity and courage is
required here by the state, by the minister for Justice, by the
Department of Justice to really think broadly about this.
And my sense from my last research on the historical
institution abuse and we interviewed political leaders,

(38:41):
we interviewed judges, barristers, solicitors, the
whole lot. Victim survivors cross the
board. They're church leaders.
There is an appetite for anotherway.
There is definitely an appetite.I can see there's an appetite,
right? But I can, I can, I can see that
because I'm on both sides of thedefence when it comes to it,

(39:03):
right? So I've, I've done prison
systems, I've done all that, I've done court systems, all of
that. So what I've learned over the
years is when people hear the word justice, they think prison.
That's, that's, that's society believes prison is justice.
I've been in prison. There's no justice for any
victim or survivor of a person been in prison.

(39:24):
I've been in prison systems where I've had a better time in
the prison system than I have had outside in society.
I've been in prison systems where no one gives a shit about
you or just a number. Like there's no reform, there's
no rehabilitation, there's no nothing.
You're just spending 23 hours locked in a box.
That's it. That's all there is to it.
That doesn't help anyone. So what you're explaining there,
I understand that, right? Do you think society would

(39:47):
understand it? Well, I think there needs to be
public education because I thinksociety like people.
People really understand more and more because of the courage
of victims. Who've come forward like

(40:09):
yourself Sophia and others, theyunderstand like the impact of
this awful crime on people like they generally society
understand this now. So society citizens of Ireland
want help and good outcomes. They want people, Sophia, to get

(40:33):
get home well in life. They want you to thrive and have
a good life. Don't want people who've been
harmed in childhood or adulthoodand sexual violence to that be
the lot and to sit in private therapy rooms just talking.
They want that you're able to get beyond it and thrive and

(40:57):
they to live and to live well, to live the good life and and
they want responsibility and accountability on perpetrators
by perpetrators and by institutions indeed, where you
know, perpetrators have worked in some senses instances.
So I think if it's explained andunderstood and more and more and

(41:26):
more explained, if people have worries and concerns, the
citizens will come to their own view.
And I think the citizens of Ireland will come to a view that
they want anything that will make life better for victims.
And they mightn't want life better for perpetrators.

(41:49):
The families of perpetrators will want life betters for them,
for them, but the citizens will want, Irish citizens will want
fairness for perpetrators. And we are a nation of second
chancers like we do want we do. I think we do like the
rehabilitative ideal. We do.

(42:10):
There's no idea like we want people to turn their lives
around. And so if there are mechanisms
available to make, to try and help life get better for victims
and to work with the rehabilitative ideal of people
turning their lives around, thenI can't see that the citizens

(42:33):
won't want it. The citizens will be worried
about matters like safety. How will you protect victims in
the process? How these are the questions.
I, I know them all because of, you know, the research over the
years. How will you protect victims?
Well, we have ways of protectingvictims in the process largely
through the preparation and and knowing trigger words and

(42:59):
trigger in the process. So for instance, how will you be
trauma informed? So for instance, in the
preparation with a victim, A victim said to me once, if my
father calls me baby in the middle of the meeting, you will
know what he's doing, right? The power is switching back.
He's taking back power. So we, through the preparation,

(43:23):
we learn. Through a lot of engagement with
the victim, we learn about thesethings.
And then through engagement withthe, with the perpetrator, we,
we learn. So that's the first thing You
can absolutely make these processes trauma informed and
safe, as safe as humanly possible for all parties.

(43:45):
Preparation is the key, education preparation for the
parties is the key. And if the victim wants a
support person there with her would say a female victim in the
process that that support personis part of the preparation.
And then if the victim wants a asupport person in the room, the

(44:06):
offender can have a support person in the room.
And you always have support persons anyway for after the
process if not in the room. So there are lots of ways of
making safety, the process safe.Some of people from the feminist
persuasion, and I'm feminist myself, are worried about the

(44:28):
power differential in the room. How are you going to avoid that
power switch again, him taking power?
Well, it's again all in the preparation.
And I mean, that's where the where the preparation comes in,
but it's also where very skilledpractitioners come into it.

(44:50):
I wouldn't allow someone facilitate a sexual violence
case who didn't understand impact of trauma, the dynamics
of sexual violence and perpetrators strategies as well
as restorative justice and so on.
So there's no, you couldn't bring in like a, you know, a
first year student to do this who didn't understand the

(45:12):
dynamics. So you need trained
facilitators. But once it's done, there are
ways of doing that. Let me just say this, nothing
that is worth doing is foolproof.
Like we can make it as safe as possible, but I'll give you an
example of of a moment where it appeared like it had gone a bit

(45:35):
off track. And this was with three
survivors individually. They met with their their parent
and mother where they had been abused by their father, father
now deceased, and they believed that the mother had known a lot
about it and hadn't done enough.Anyway, they now wanted to meet
with their mother and on one occasion with one of the girls

(45:59):
she when she when we were finished the meeting almost
finished the meeting I remembered that I hadn't turned
the heating on in the room next door and as the mother was
leaving the room leaving the meeting, it had gone reasonably
well. As the mother was about to leave
the meeting in to go into the next room with her support

(46:20):
person. I said oh I must go out and and
turn on the heating. That was not the plan.
The plan was the two of them leave into the next room.
I was staying with the victim. I remembered I went out.
As I left, the mother turned around to the daughter and said
if daddy heard what you were saying, he'd turn in his grave,

(46:41):
right? So I turn on the heating, run
back in and the survivor is crying, right?
And the mother and her support person were now gone.
And she tells me what had happened.
And so I was, you know, concerned, oh, my God, like the
mother had attempted to, you know, be kind and everything

(47:02):
else in the meeting. And then she had turned around
and said this. But that girl, we spent a lot of
time together. She said that this was helpful
because she said now I know whatI'm dealing with in my mum and
now I know how to protect myselfwhen I meet my mom and whatever.

(47:23):
And as time went on and I've hadoccasion to meet them in
multiple other fora for different other reasons.
That girl is now supportive of her mother and is able to be in
relationship. They had been estranged with her
mother, So what appears like hadn't gone well actually for

(47:44):
the survivor. She said that was that was more
information and it was helpful because she was concerned about,
she was not sure about her mum'sambiguity towards the whole
thing. Now she was clear and then once
she was clear, she was empoweredto know how to be with her

(48:05):
mother. I've had a really awesome
outcome with a survivor, Lara. Her name is in the public to me,
Lara, who never actually got to meet the perpetrator, but
through the process, the whole we, we worked as though she was
going to meet him and we tried to to find him and to get him to

(48:29):
meet and whatever. And without ever having a
meeting with the perpetrator because she had a great outcome
because she learned lots of information about him through
the process. So it's all about the process
and it's all about what does thesurvivor want and need.

(48:55):
As they're always like every every like every time you've
done this, is there always a miracle that occurs?
Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny because in the preparation we
say there will be no surprises on the day.

(49:15):
So, for instance, if I've workedwith someone who wanted to have
clarification from the perpetrator, she was abused as a
four year old and she wanted to clarify.
She was waking up in the night now and she wanted to clarify,
did you penetrate me? She couldn't remember.
So you, you, the, you couldn't go into a meeting where the

(49:36):
perpetrator didn't know this wasgoing to be asked in some form
or other and where she, you know, didn't know, broadly
speaking, what was likely the answer.
Now it's their meeting. So we prepare the parties, but
we don't ask the questions if there are ways of doing that.
I won't go into it all now. But so the idea is that on the

(49:58):
day of the meeting, there will be no surprises, no topics
discussed that we hadn't alreadyprepared.
But I can say to you here, thereare no surprises, maybe in terms
of the topics discussed, but there are always miracles.
Always. And it's like in the human

(50:19):
engagement, it's like when that woman now eyeballs that man, or
that man eyeballs that man or whoever.
And in some moment there is a kind of annoying something

(50:39):
involves, it's a miracle. It is like something shifts.
In Alva's case, Alva Griffith was another survivor and she was
the subject of a film called TheMeeting.
It's available for download and all that.
Now. I was at Alva's meeting and the
moment of transformation was there was when the man called

(51:01):
her, her name, he Washington. He she was assaulted by a
stranger. And in in the actual meeting, he
said, she said, I wish you well.At the end of the meeting, she
said, people will think that's strange, but I wish you well.
He had served quite a long sentence.
And then he said, I wish you well, Alva and blah, blah, blah.

(51:23):
And like, that was a real humanizing moment.
And her entire attempt, why Alvawanted restorative justice, was
she wanted to humanize the perpetrator because she said, I
can't walk around the world. She has a small child being
terrified of meeting a monster in the supermarket because now

(51:45):
he's out of prison. And and there was another moment
in Alvez meeting, which is also in the public domain, when they
laughed when he said something. And it was quite she looked
incredulous credulously at him. And the two of them laughed.
And it was like, this was the man who had almost left for

(52:06):
dead, like. For someone to listen to that,
they think how the hell is that possible like that?
It's because you see, I've come to the conclusion, and this is
after a lot of a lot of therapy work, a lot of soul searching
myself, a lot of engagement withother people in their lives and

(52:26):
engagement with myself and my own life.
Human beings, we can inflict theworst kind of harms on each
other, but actually human beings, we can help each other
heal through solidarity, dialogue, understanding, being

(52:54):
with. So the process of justice and
healing, in my mind, it doesn't take place necessarily behind
bars. It takes place through dialogue.
And in a study that I did years ago in 2014, men imprisoned men.
We interviewed a lot of them. We asked them would they be

(53:16):
willing to do restorative justice?
And they said, and they were allsex offenders.
They said the finding was yes, that they would be willing.
It wouldn't be that they'd sign up for it, but if they were
asked to do, they would. And we asked them home, why
would you be willing to do this?And here are the reasons to do

(53:38):
something honourable. Having done something so
dishonourable, it will help me sleep better at night if I know
I've done something to try and help the person heal.
It will help my family see that I want to do something to be a

(54:00):
better person. And it might help family
relations. And sometimes it was for
forgiveness, but forgiveness is in the gift of the victim.
That's not a demand. That cannot be a demand.
There's a miss, a misnomer in restorative justice that it has
to be all about apology and forgiveness.

(54:21):
Let me clear clear that now it has to be neither about apology
or forgiveness. That's within the gift of the
victim to accept or to be, to offer forgiveness or otherwise.
I can, I can talk about a bit more the power of the
restorative justice. I don't think like my father had

(54:43):
a few years served in prison, obviously, but I don't think it
actually hit him while he was there for what had happened and
all that until the restorative justice.
Because he had this thing in hishead that when he got out of
prison, he was going to have a life with us and everything.
And I was like, no. And he was like, but why?
I was like, how can I have you in my life?
I can't do that to myself again and again.

(55:05):
And I said, I've already lost enough.
I'm not going to let someone back in to lose them again.
And I couldn't take that chance with my own head, with my own
mental health, with my own life.And he started to cry and get
upset. And then like, even when I first
went in, I said to him, I said you should be locked up for
murder because it wasn't me. My sister would still be alive

(55:28):
and what you put her through. And he was just kind of nodding
and agreeing just like taking itall aboard.
But not long after I'd done the visit, my father ended up
paralyzed. His whole immune system attacked
him. So like even for that reason,
for him to actually understand why he'd done, because he was in

(55:50):
prison for a few years before that and I hadn't hadn't hit
him. It's only when I sat in front of
him and said, Dad, this is what you have done, That's when it
actually hit home for him because but in a few weeks he
was paralysed from the neck down.
He's got his feeling back obviously since.
But I think when he went and he even said to his sister after

(56:15):
that, having to lie there and beat one with his own thoughts
really made him realize the damage he'd done.
Because I remember even saying to him in the restorative
justice, why did you keep doing what you were doing?
And he said, because I kept getting away with it.
And he was like, if I knew that this would be the outcome of it,
I wouldn't have done it. Now I know part of me wants to

(56:38):
believe that and another part ofme can't believe that, you know,
and that's OK too. But so much went on in our lives
and so much was left under the carpet.
I think that having the opportunity to say that to him
and listened because I one question I had, what was I to

(56:59):
you? And he said you were my baby
girl. And part of me was hoping he'd
say, oh, you were something else.
He was something I was about to hear him say or my baby girl was
like, it meant a lot because he didn't just look at me as
someone that he abused and someone that was there to be

(57:24):
tortured. He actually did look at me as
his daughter as well. So even to get that from it was
was really powerful for so many reasons.
And I would never have got thoseanswers or he never would have
got to sit with his own thoughtsif I didn't do that.

(57:47):
You see the criminal justice system and and your dad was
through that process and you were through it, Sophia.
And the attempt in the criminal justice system is to keep the
story small, keep keep only answer the questions that are
asked. I mean, this is how the system

(58:07):
works. Don't don't go into big stories.
It's it's but in restorative justice, it's the opposite is
the case. It's victim focused and it is to
get the full story told in in inthe way that the victim wants it
told. So like, how how could you get

(58:32):
that detail in the criminal justice system?
What was I to you? Like, where was the possibility
in the criminal trial for you tofigure out with your dad, what
am I to you dad? And definition of relationships
is huge. It's the stuff that drives us
crazy if we don't know who we are to each other.
Even in my victim impact statement at the court, it's a

(58:54):
lot of stuff had to be taken outbecause it wasn't irrelevant to
the court. So I didn't even get my
opportunity to say everything I wanted to say to my victim
impact statement because that was even pulled back.
Yeah, and in in Alvis case, whenshe's when she asked him and
again, it's in the public domainand it's in the film and she
asked that man, why, why, why did you do it?

(59:16):
And you know, I believe he gave an honest answer because he
really was pensive and considered and whatever.
And then he said he saw her at abus stop, right.
He said when I saw your high heeled shoes, when I saw your
high heeled shoes, I saw red. Now The thing is that's very
interesting, but it's very interesting.

(59:39):
Interesting in terms of misogynyand all the rest of it is it
was, you know, you could do a whole thesis and somebody has I
think on, on the high heeled shoes.
But the point is, where was Alvaever going to know that little
bit of information? Now her own feeling was was
different, but you know, she felt it was misogyny and all the

(01:00:02):
rest of it. But how?
How that was never going to comeout.
It wasn't personal. She could have been anybody
wearing those high heeled shoes.So it's like these real and you
find it with with homicides, youknow, obviously the person is
dead, but the family like they families and and you know, it's

(01:00:22):
families of of people who've been murdered or on my radar,
because I feel a lot of those families could well do if they
wanted. Of course, it's entirely their
call with meeting the perpetrator, the person who
killed their loved one, because things like what was the last
words she said? What?

(01:00:43):
You know what? Did.
She did you all the unanswered questions.
The only person who has the answers is the perpetrator.
Shooting people actually understand that this process has
actually been around for thousands of years, that
restorative justice is just a different name for a tribal
process that has been used in life, in society, for whatever

(01:01:06):
you want to call it, far since the existence of humanity
really. That when there was an incident
or a crime or whatever you want to call it, that people actually
got together as a tribe, as a community and discussed it and
brought it in, brought perpetrator and victim together
to create healing. Do you think people actually

(01:01:27):
understand that this has been a long term process that's been
around for as long as we have? Yeah, I think people don't know
that now. We won't go academic.
Some academics kind of kind of say, well, you know, it was
different, you know, in tribal wars.
But like in Ireland, they went to the Hill of Terror and sat in

(01:01:48):
circle to to resolve conflict, conflict and and and so on and
so forth and The Chieftains and the whole lot.
So yes, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's, it's in our day DNA
to come together. But let me just but sexual
violence isn't just conflict. Sometimes people say, you know,
about resolving conflict isn't about conflict.

(01:02:10):
It's like serious crime and blah, blah, blah.
So that always has to be in the frame.
But yeah, we have, we have yearsand years, generations of
tradition of coming together to resolve matters.
Why not? Yeah, it's.
It's how it works. How the peace process in
Northern Ireland worked. It's how anything works when

(01:02:31):
you. It's what'll happen have to
happen in all the all the placesin the world do.
You like so, right? I'd be very much into esoteric
knowledge and old wisdom and whatnot, right?
So I would see the word sex as asacred energy exchange.
Do you think that comes into play when the power play of it

(01:02:52):
or someone basically steals someone else's power through
sexual violence? Wow, I love that description.
Sacred. Energy.
Exchange. Yeah, a fantastic.
Yeah. Like, I've always seen sexual
violence as stealing, stealing, Stealing is I steal because I

(01:03:16):
can, you know, because I'm more powerful or whatever.
So absolutely. And like, even within intimate
relationships and marriages and boy and girl and girl and girl
and boy and boy relationships, you know, sex should not be
assumed. It is always a gift.
It is always an exchange. It is always a sacred exchange.

(01:03:39):
It's always a gift. It always has to be negotiated.
Consent campaigns are talking about that.
But even if we forget consent campaigns, if you just get with
the basic, it's, it's, it's a sacred exchange that cannot be
assumed even if I'm married for a week, a month or 45 years.

(01:04:00):
I think a lot of people don't realize how much it means to a
person until it's actually takenfrom them.
You know when you understand? Because it takes not just one
thing, it takes everything away from you.
For many years it does because you don't know who you were,
what you were you're you have noself love, self-care, self
compassion, you've no self worth, you're not happy with how

(01:04:22):
you look, how you feel. And it's all from one move from
a person. Especially from childhood, from
a children's aspect, the person is still developing.
Their mind is developing, their bodies, developing their
understanding of themselves, theworld around them, It's all
developing. You're pretty much like going in
and just going, Yep, I'll take all that.
But even you just seen that likein why we're here to talk about

(01:04:45):
we're sort of justice. Like imagine one hour of a
meeting could help someone heal so much from that.
I know it's only one hour and there's obviously work to do
after and work to do before withthat one hour is really, really
big piece of that jigsaw. So the rest can kind of come in
around it. Like even to the point where

(01:05:07):
I've been talking to you about going to see my father again
because I've the restorative justice done, I have my power
taken back from him now. I have so many questions I want
to answer and, and I feel like I'd be OK to do that, but I
wouldn't have this opportunity if I didn't do the sort of
justice in the 1st place. You know, there's such a bigger
picture. It's a ripple effect around it.

(01:05:29):
It's a massive ripple effect just even from your process,
from your sort of justice that'saffected multiple people in your
lives. It's given me an eye opener in
my life. It's it's in then in turn
changed how I would communicate and talk to other people about
different stuff. And I'd actually like, as mad as
this may sound, because I'm fromlike an era and a system and

(01:05:51):
criminality of where like it wasthem versus US within a prison
system. They were on one side, we were
on the other side, like they weren't human.
They were monsters, you know, and that's how it is.
I've actually, it's mad even to say this.
I've changed my my view of perpetrators of sexual offenses.
Like I see beyond the offense and like I don't think I'd ever

(01:06:12):
of taught myself saying that, tobe honest.
And especially with stuff that'sgone on in my own life as well.
I I didn't think I'd ever be able to get to a point where I'd
see them, oh, as anything more than monsters, really.
But it's not the case. They're human beings with their
own traumatic experiences. Trauma creates trauma.

(01:06:35):
Like yeah, we're involved it in a a thing called trauma talks
and the compassion circle and like that's opened up my mind as
well. But like your experience out
with that. Sorry your experiences has
ripple affected on I don't know how many different lives and
that's just one experience. But what you've what what you've
identified Sofia, is how much istaken away by sexual violence or

(01:07:02):
sexual abuse or sexual crime, whatever you want to call it.
And for me, like, that's really sad.
But it also makes me want to work even harder to make sure
that we do everything possible, humanly possible.
And sometimes it's a spiritual process and sometimes it's body

(01:07:23):
work and all sorts of work. But but why?
Why are we not doing everything possible to try and help the
person who's been harmed to get back as much as possible of of
what was taken away and impact on body and all those things, as

(01:07:45):
you said in sometimes in a meeting that can all shift.
It just can all shift. It's it's incredible.
The love I have for myself as a person, physically, mentally,
spiritually is it's a dream. I never thought I'd be ever,
ever able to feel this way but myself.

(01:08:06):
And I know big part of that was taking my power back.
I really do. I took ownership of me back that
day. I can't explain how.
I can't explain when it happened.
It didn't happen straight away. It took a bit of time.
But when I felt that shift happening the next day, it
brought me right back to sittingin the room doing a sort of

(01:08:28):
justice. It really did.
Yeah. And this was before I even
started any therapy again or anything, was just being
confident in myself and knowing that I'd done the right thing,
which is something I hadn't feltI don't think ever.
And we know that that people whoare victims of sexual crime

(01:08:54):
sometimes, not always, but sometimes, like, start to blame
themselves in some way. I mean, a man drove in to the
back of my car. And I remember this some years
ago. And I got out and to say
something and he convinced me that I had reversed into him.

(01:09:15):
I was stationary. So the human mind, you know, I
was an adult. I was in a supermarket car park.
The man drove into me, but he was busy convincing me that I
had driven reversed into him. Now, that's the most simple of
matters. But when you have a child or an

(01:09:37):
adult, you know, vulnerable, I don't mean vulnerable at it.
I mean an adult in a relationship or attacked on the
street. And the person then starts to
act as though this is your faultor you wanted it or you brought
it on yourself or something about, you know, or people start
to, you know, well, it happened once were once, but it happened

(01:10:00):
over 4 years. Why didn't she tell somebody?
All those kind of hidden messages that sometimes aren't
said, but for the survivor can sometimes begin to feel, was
there something in this for me? And then all the the negative
messages come that all needs to be given right back to the

(01:10:25):
perpetrator. This is what you did to me.
This is what you took. And you know what I'm taking
back, what I'm taking back, and you can have back the rest.
What's yours? All those lies and manipulations
and everything else here. You can have all those now and
you can take them out when you're leaving the room because
I'm hanging on to them no longer.

(01:10:47):
The only way that can be done istrue restorative justice.
You know, you can try it in therapy with empty chairs and
you know, fish style techniques to my and I've done it all.
You know, as in I've facilitatedit all over a long career.
This that, any other. I've done the breath work, I've
done the whole shebang. Get you to a point.
Get you to a point. But that's the point, it doesn't

(01:11:09):
get you further. From it works for some people,
but for me and all the research will support this the face to
face meetings and here's the is is the more powerful and here's
the interesting thing the more impactful the crime generally
the greater the outcome for the survivor.

(01:11:31):
And yet in this country and others it many countries have
restorative justice for sexual violence and we have some here
but not enough. But we're afraid, you know, for
the more serious crime. But if we've no resources, we
really should. That's where we should be
putting it into because we know there will be a greater impact

(01:11:54):
for victims of sexual and and other serious crime, homicide
and a ripple effect and families.
Changes communities. Yeah.
And for someone that wants to doresort of justice, like I said
at the start, I I was meant to do it many times and it never
worked out that way. So it was all about the time and
for me, but if someone's listening and think I'm not

(01:12:16):
ready for that or I wouldn't be able to do that or that seems
like a lot, is there, Anthony, you could say that could just
kind of reassure them into thinking that it's not as bad as
it's easy for me to say it as well, obviously, because it
worked out so well for me. But for someone that might be
doubting themselves that they'renot prepared for something like
this, is there anything you could say?

(01:12:36):
Yeah, I, well, I would say have a chat with someone, reach out
to someone who is doing it. So I mean, I'm, I'm willing to
say people can contact me if, ifyou want, right.
I'll, but I'm probably not likely to be available for
conversations until into September because, umm, I'm

(01:13:00):
changing, changing jobs. But I am hoping that, you know,
that the state may well start establishing something into, you
know, into the autumn kind of onthe radar, but it's not there.
But I'd be very happy people cancontact me if they want to
discuss. And The thing is to have a chat

(01:13:21):
or to chat to someone that they know has done it or whatever,
because then you get more information.
Then you can go away and forget about it and then think, come
back to it again. But we need a state service.
That's the thing we need, we need education, we need a state
service. And I mean the probation
service, let's say also reach out there, but and the probation

(01:13:42):
service have a restorative justice service.
The issue there is that the they're limited, obviously
because of resources, but the restorative justice service in
the probation service is confined to victims of
perpetrators who are currently on the books of the probation
service. So if your perpetrator was never

(01:14:02):
on the books of the probation service or is long off the books
or whatever, then however, the probation service have a victim
unit and they would be also willing, I'm sure, to give you
help and information. Brilliant.
I think that perfectly plays back to what you just spoke
about before about the DPP having I've been able to
facilitate. If something isn't going to go

(01:14:24):
to the justice system, is there another way?
Another reason. Another option, I'm not going to
say every perpetrator is going to go, Oh yeah, I go and talk
like, you know, if they're not going to go to the court system,
they're going to hang a whole thing.
Thank God I'm out here. But there's possibly some that
may. So that's where that comes in as
well, I think. And just in case there are legal

(01:14:45):
professionals listening, you know, and they say I'll never be
recommending my perpetrator to go, you know, if the DPP is not
proceeding, I understand. I'm going to be telling him to
keep, shut his mouth closed and go home.
Umm, just to say that, you know,this happens in other
jurisdictions and there are legal protections put in.
You know, it's, it's not that you could be really, it can be

(01:15:08):
arranged. There can be, uh, all sorts of
protections put in. A lawyer said to me, senior
counsel said to me recently, umm, he said the Mediation Act
was the game changer in mediation and legal
professionals because now they have to inform clients who come
for civil matters or family law matters.

(01:15:30):
They have to inform them about the possibility of mediation and
would you like to go to mediation?
And then if you say no, whatever, then.
So this senior counsel was saying to me that the Mediation
Act, the fact of the ACT has been a game changer for him in
recommending mediation to, to people.
So there may be need in due course for legislation for

(01:15:52):
restorative justice kind of to protect legal professionals
almost that would recommend it to their clients and to take the
fear out of it. Peter, it's all about fear.
It's to take the fear out of it and so if legislation is
required, you know, we can discuss that further with the

(01:16:12):
Minister for Justice and Company.
But in the meantime, you know there is a lot more we can be
doing. Yeah, I.
Think I'm I'm like, I tell you one thing, I'm a lot more
educated on a lot more topics like.
I told her she was a good woman.That's.
Not what you. Said at all that's.

(01:16:34):
Not what you said at all. I can't repeat what she said.
I just want to say thank you so very much for.
Coming. Yeah, Marie, thank you so much.
Is there anything you'd like to say?
Is there anything at all that's jumped out at you that you want
to get out into the public domain?
Well, I'd like to thank you both.
First of all, It's been, you know, one of the privileges of

(01:16:55):
my life, meeting Sophia and now meeting you, Peter.
Thank you. Yeah.
And they're special. They're privileged journeys.
And I take none of it for granted, I can tell you that.
Umm, yeah, I, I like, I'm a longtime in this work in this field,
too long that I'm prepared to admit on the podcast.

(01:17:18):
But I've really come to, to, to see that there is possibility
here for more healing. And so let's go and do it.
Yeah, it really does work, honestly.
So we call it a day. Yeah, and we'll attach all
Marie's link into our LinkedIn and the links for her books as

(01:17:41):
well, and you can grab them all there.
Thank you for listening or watching and don't forget to
like subscribe, follow, share all of those things that we're
going to get you to do have to ask it and getting easier asking
you just do all the above, please.
Thank you. Thanks guys for watching.