In this powerful episode, we’re joined by Adriana Martin De La Torre, a bilingual, bicultural therapist at Her Time Therapy who also works with refugees and immigrants through a local nonprofit. Adriana shares her wisdom on culturally inclusive counseling—why it matters, how language and identity shape the therapeutic process, and how clients can navigate the complex journey of finding a therapist who truly sees them.
Together, we explore:
- The difference between cultural competence and cultural humility
- Why Western therapeutic models don't always fit clients from collectivist cultures
- The role of intergenerational trauma and assimilation in mental health
- How language can unlock deeper emotional expression
- Red flags to watch for when looking for a culturally affirming therapist
- The healing power of validation, curiosity, and connection
Whether you're a therapist working to deepen your practice or someone seeking a counselor who understands your lived experience, Adriana offers invaluable insight, compassion, and practical tools for navigating the therapeutic space with cultural awareness and integrity.
🧡 “Validation and curiosity go further than assumptions. Your culture is not a barrier—it’s a strength.”
Learn more about our practice: www.hertimetherapy.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meagan (00:28):
Adriana, thank you so much for being here and talking
with me today about culturallyinclusive counseling.
Can you just take a moment andintroduce yourself to our
listeners, tell'em a little bitabout you.
Adriana (00:40):
I am Adriana Martin de Tore, and I'm pronouncing it
this way because this is theproper way to pronounce my name,
but in America they pronounce itdifferently.
And I am a bilingual biculturaltherapist who serves clients
here at her time therapy, andanother nonprofit outside
working with refugees andimmigrants.
Meagan (01:02):
That's vitally important work now more than ever.
So thank you for the specialwork you do and all of the
expertise that you bring to usat her time.
It's truly valued.
Adriana (01:13):
Thank you.
It's an honor and a privilege toserve these communities.
Meagan (01:17):
Absolutely.
So we're here to talk todayabout culturally inclusive
counseling and the role oflanguage and culture within the
therapeutic space and how it cansometimes be really beneficial
for people to do a little bit ofextra work to find a counselor
that really understands theirculture and is inclusive.
(01:39):
Sometimes that will include thecounselor speaking their native
language, or sometimes it canlook a lot of different ways and
there's maybe some pros and consto working with a counselor from
a different cultural backgroundtoo.
I'd love to start by hearingyour thoughts on why it's
important in the therapy spaceto have a counselor.
That is culturally inclusive andthat really understands the
(02:02):
culture that the client comesfrom.
Adriana (02:04):
Yes.
That's a really great question.
And I think just as anyone whowas born in the US we're
constantly influenced by cultureand society and culture
influences how we viewourselves, the relationships
around us and the world aroundthem.
So when we're talking aboutclients, if we don't understand
(02:25):
the context to where they comefrom, it's gonna be really hard
to be able to.
Understand what they value andhow they manage whatever it is
that they practice.
When we take the time tounderstand and respect an
individual's culturalbackground, it allows the client
to feel validated within theirown lived experience and the.
(02:47):
Multiple identities thatintersect with who they are.
And when that is left uncheckedand not acknowledged, it can
leave a client feeling likethey're being dismissed or
they're feeling misunderstood.
A great example I can think ofis any individual who comes from
a collectivistic culture mayprioritize family and community
(03:08):
over individual needs.
And if a therapist really missesthat.
It's going to really shape how.
Harmful it will feel for theclient when it comes to
discussing coping mechanismsthat don't involve the community
or the family.
And it makes me think of theconcept of boundaries.
I think Western culture manytimes removes people and I.
(03:32):
Pushes them out to do what'sagainst cultural norms within a
client's culture.
And as a therapist, if we don'tknow how much a client values
interdependence and the roleswithin a family system, we're
teaching them how to cope inways that are gonna further
isolate them and create moredistress within their own
(03:53):
wellbeing, and it's gonna createmore tension in their own
families as well.
Meagan (03:57):
Yeah, you did such a wonderful job summarizing that,
and that's really interesting tohear you frame it in that lens
of, and maybe this is a summaryof what I'm understanding you're
saying is for one client, youcan talk about setting
boundaries that are moreindividualistic and focused on
them and what they need in theirlife, and it works great.
But that same intervention for aclient from a more collectivist
(04:20):
culture that.
Really views the family dynamicas the priority it can actually
serve to isolate them and evenbe harmful.
Whereas an intervention is greatfor one person, it can be
harmful to the other if you'renot paying attention to the
differences in culture.
Adriana (04:38):
Yes, a hundred percent.
It's gonna further perpetuatethe distress that they're
already experiencing withintheir family, especially if
we're pulling them todifferentiate, rather than
helping them lean more intotheir culture and engage in
cultural adaptations that fittheir value system.
And it's gonna take exploringthat together with a client
rather than making assumptions.
(05:00):
And of course, our role astherapists is to learn a little
bit about their culture, butmost importantly, the client is
ultimately the expert andthere's a fine balance in
navigating that.
Meagan (05:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And here at hard time we dospecialize in working more with
those who are women and identifyas women.
So I'd love to hear yourthoughts a little bit about how
the cultural issues applyspecifically to your female
clientele.
And are there any presentingissues that you see often in
your work with women and how youmaybe change your interventions
(05:35):
for them?
Adriana (05:36):
Yes.
A lot of the common themes thatI notice specifically with
immigrants or daughters ofimmigrants, it's very common for
them to feel a sense of guiltand betrayal as they're
assimilating into US culture.
Whether it's like them not beingborn here or being first gen,
(05:58):
which.
First generation, which meansyou are the first born in this
country and the tensions thatyou can experience when there is
mixed legal statuses within thefamily on top of what this
country requires of you to besuccessful versus what.
(06:18):
A family considers to besuccessful can look very
different across cultures.
And speaking specifically tolike Mexican American woman or
women that were born in Mexico,it's very common for them to
feel pulled to differentdirections when it comes to
their assimilation process andwhat their parents want for them
(06:39):
versus what they want forthemselves.
And that differentiation processis what?
Brings a lot of anxiety anddepression because there's this
sense of I really want to pleasemy family and I want to honor
the family values that I wasraised in, and I also want to
have my own values and how can Icreate a balance and
(07:02):
integrating.
Both, and that can be verydistressing as these women are
developing their identity,especially when they're moving
on to become professionals andthey're not meeting up to the
standards and expectations thatthey're held to culturally.
Meagan (07:17):
Wow.
So it really does set up thissituation where it's almost like
they can't win.
If they fully Americanizethemselves and become quote
unquote successful from thedominant American perspective,
they're disappointing andisolating family members.
But if they please family, thenthey're not functioning in this
other domain.
So it's very hard to win.
(07:40):
In the big sense,
Adriana (07:42):
it really is, it's really hard to win because on
one hand you wanna be successfuland your perception of success
is not gonna reflect what momand dad perceive as success.
And that's where more tensioncan be created and it can be
really hard.
To dismantle all of that and beable to create your own sense of
(08:03):
self.
And this is where I believeWestern therapy comes into play,
where the key focus is onindividual needs and boundaries.
But a lot of the times thosedisconnect us from connection in
the unity and harmony that thesefamilies expect of these young
women who are.
Just wanting to strive andthrive to be successful,
(08:26):
whatever it is that may be forthem.
But then they're grappling withwhat mom and dad are saying is
successful, and it's not evenjust mom and dad.
Oftentimes, a lot of immigrantfamilies come with extended
families, so now they're alsogetting that external pressure
when they see their own cousinsliving up to the standards that
the family expects, the cultureexpects, and sometimes both can
(08:49):
be conflated because family.
Has their own values.
That's its own little system.
And then there's also culture.
And if we think of it like herein the US there's also other
systems that continue to oppressthese marginalized groups of
people.
And I wanna throw these in herebecause these are other systemic
barriers and challenges thatthese women face on top of
(09:12):
navigating what culture says,what this culture says in the
us.
What their family says, what theextended family says.
And then if we throw inreligion, that's like another
thing that also layers it more.
So there's a lot of systems thatwe're working with.
And when it comes to womennavigating these, and many times
(09:34):
I would say oftentimes womenjust feel like they're not doing
enough and they feel pulled towanting, needing to be
superwoman and.
Having to navigate being thisand this.
And I think that's whereidentity crisis can happen often
because we're constantly wantingto serve this culture and we're
dismissing ourselves, and that'swhere we get lost in our
(09:55):
identity.
And we don't know who we arebecause we want to be someone,
but we also don't wanna dismissour roots and where we come
from.
And I know.
Speaking for myself, that can besomething that I experience
where it's
like,
I really want to do this because this is what's
gonna be best, and I don't wantto submit to a dynamic that's
(10:17):
not helpful and dysfunctionaland at the expense of losing
this relationship which is bestfor me.
I think that's the hardest part,because we're also working with
grief as layers are beingpeeled.
Meagan (10:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
As you were mentioning all ofthese systems that women are
grappling with, one of thethings that came to mind is how
in a lot of my sessions, so manywomen will come in and say this
person says this, but then thisother expectation says this, and
I don't know who to listen to.
And oftentimes I'll ask.
Them.
What do you think?
(10:50):
Because I hear what you know, 10other people in your world are
telling you to do and what theythink, but what do you think?
And sometimes that's the firsttime they've ever been asked
that and been challenged toactually listen to themselves.
Rather than all of the peoplethat are a part of all these
other systems.
I'm curious if you've also foundthat to be true in sessions and
how you work across all of thesedomains where we wanna build up
(11:13):
the personal empowerment andpersonal autonomy to hear your
own voice, but also recognizingthat especially in more diverse
cultures, we really do need toincorporate the family and the
family system beliefs as well.
Adriana (11:27):
That is a really great question because, oftentimes I
would think just even asking thequestion, what do you think can
be so overwhelming?
Because their whole life, theywere literally making choices.
That supported the whole system.
It was never about them, but itwas always about the family.
It was never about how is thisgonna benefit me before I even
(11:48):
consider my family?
It's how is this gonna benefitmy family before I even consider
myself?
There's so many voices that aretaunting them about where do I
move next?
And that's where guilt shows up.
A lot of guilt is.
Just manifest of I feel bad ifI.
Think about myself and what itis that I need.
(12:09):
How are my parents gonna look atme?
Are they gonna stop talking tome?
Does this mean that therelationship I have with them is
conditional based off of how I'mbenefiting them?
And I think this also brings itto socioeconomic status, right?
If we're working towards healingand we're wanting to support
someone, find their voice.
(12:30):
It's really hard to find thatvoice when there's other layers
and barriers that are keepingyou from moving forward.
Because if you don't have theresources and you don't have the
finances, self-care is out thewindow.
If you're just in survival modeand you're trying to live up to
the standards of your parentsand you have no room to be able
to move forward.
So I don't have a specificanswer to your question of how
(12:55):
to navigate strategically whatthat means other than.
Framing it more how do you thinkyour family would respond to
this?
Or what do you think your familywould be most supportive of?
Incorporating one of theindividuals from the family
system?
Because when we're talking aboutfamilies, especially women, if
we're gonna throw in genderroles.
(13:16):
Every single person in thefamily has a role.
And speaking for Mexicanfamilies, there's a hierarchy.
So oftentimes when a woman isasked, what do you think it it's
stripping off things that theyhave.
It's difficult for them to evenconsider because their whole
life, they've been dominated bysomeone else making the choices
for them because they neverreally had a choice.
(13:37):
Even when they gave their owninput, it wasn't always
considered.
It opens up a can of worms, inother words, and the most
helpful ways to integratefamily.
But I think ultimately it comesback to the client and
identifying where are they intheir assimilation and
acculturation process in this.
Country and that will give youall the information to know, is
(13:58):
it safe for me to start toindividualize this individual
and move them towards this way,while also acknowledging like,
Hey, if you start to move moretowards Western values, this is
gonna be a threat to your familysystem.
There's going to be responsesbecause you are dancing a whole
nother rhythm than what yourfamily has been your whole life.
(14:20):
So be prepared and I'm here tosupport you to walk with you.
Meagan (14:24):
As you're describing that a question that came to my
mind was where do you tend tostart with clients?
But as you kept talking, it waslike there is no one starting
point.
It really seems as a therapist,you meet with your clients and
just see where are they at inthat process of being completely
ingrained within the familysystem, or how much of a
individualized self are they?
(14:45):
Able to recognize and startingwith their highest point of
distress and figuring out whereto go from there.
Adriana (14:53):
That is one of the ways I would say what I do with most
of my clients is I like to ask'em about their migration
journey.
Even if they were not the oneswho were the first to migrate
into this country, theirparents' migration journey had a
huge impact on them, and that'swhere we bring in
intergenerational trauma andsome of the presenting symptoms
that they may be experiencing.
(15:14):
And when we.
Spend time exploring thatmigration journey that gives me
more information about when thedate that they arrived and if I
know the date that they arrived.
That gives me information abouthow many years they've been in
this country and how assimilatedthey are.
And I also ask about their homelife.
(15:34):
And what a typical day lookslike for them.
And one of the greatestquestions that helps inform me
of how assimilated they trulyare, aside from how long they've
been in the country, is when itcomes to decision making.
Who's involved?
Is it just you or is your familyinvolved?
And once I have all these piecesto the puzzle that I'm
(15:55):
formulating in my mind, it'swhen I bring it back to goal
setting.
And because I am more clientcentered, I don't like to
structure therapy in any way.
I let them guide me in wherewe're going next, as soon as we
have specific goals, and startworking towards that direction.
All of the background I gain isjust for me to know what am I
(16:19):
working with and how can Iensure that when we ever have a
conversation about boundaries orboundaries ever comes up.
Does it mean we're gonna do moreWestern boundaries, or is it
gonna be more biculturalboundaries, or we bring in your
cultural and family values andadapt whatever Western therapies
(16:39):
have to say about creatingboundaries.
And rather than teaching copingskills where we separate you and
isolate you from the stressor,can we bring in some of those
values like family?
To engage in some of thesecoping skills with you.
So if we're gonna have someonecomplete a technique for the
stress response cycle, forexample, rather than telling my
(17:02):
client, I want you to go hikeand jog down the mountain so
that you can complete that cyclein your nervous system can get
regulated.
I would instead invite them tohave a family get together and
go hike together.
Meagan (17:18):
That's such a great example of still pulling in a
evidence-based strategy, butmaking it accessible and
honoring their culture in doingit.
I really love this approach thatyou're taking and even just the
question of what's yourmigration journey, even if you
were born here.
That is really powerful to get asense of their bigger picture
(17:39):
worldview.
And in a lot of ways I imaginejust exploring the answer to
that question really helps themlearn the connection between
that migration journey and someof the distressing symptoms
they're feeling and areimpacting them today.
And I think that's a lot of thework we do as counselors is
helping people connect the dotsin their own lives.
And even just figuring out like,why am I this way?
(18:02):
Why am I struggling in thisparticular fashion?
And being able to connect thosedots helps give them a little
bit of empowerment to say I'mnot just crazy.
I'm not broken.
There's nothing actually wrongwith me.
This actually all makes a lot ofsense when you look at it in the
big picture.
Adriana (18:17):
A hundred percent.
And as you're describing all ofthose pieces that help
contribute to their story andintegrating who they are, which
is amazing to see it all unfoldin therapy.
One of the things that came tomind when exploring the
migration journey and goalsetting is language.
(18:38):
I think language is.
So important because in myexperience in working with
different cultures, there's somany idioms that do not
translate well in English.
And when we're working withsomeone whose native language is
Spanish, there's a lot of idiomsin Spanish that dictate how an
individual's internal world isthat cannot be understood in
(19:00):
English.
The best example I can think ofthat I heard many times, and I
know a lot of my clients heardit when they were teens.
Speaking directly to Latinas isa lot of Latina moms would say,
which translates to, don't youcome home with your Sunday
seven?
(19:20):
And if you hear that, you'relike, what the heck does that
even mean?
Essentially it's like an idiom.
And what it means is mom issaying, I hope you don't come
home pregnant.
It makes no sense when youtranslate it word by word.
And I wanna highlight languageas.
Something that is very crucialto just the therapeutic
relationship and ensuring thatyou're both understanding each
(19:41):
other when it comes to emotionalexpression.
Idioms are a great way for a lotof cultures to express
themselves other than religionand what they use within their
religion to and instill hope forone another.
But research shows that.
An individual's native languageis their best way of being able
(20:02):
to express how they feel.
So if I have someone who'sbilingual and their first
language was Spanish and Englishwas second, I have even noticed
things in my own clients thateven though they prefer to do
therapy in both English andSpanish, I have found that when
they're.
Describing very painfulexperiences and they're
(20:23):
describing and naming theiremotions.
It's in their native language.
And research reflects that we doour best expressing ourselves in
our native language, and when wedon't have to offer that other
language, it makes it reallyhard for a client to emotionally
process what they're coming intotherapy for.
Meagan (20:42):
Wow, that's really impressive.
And I didn't know about thatresearch.
That's really interesting.
I'm even thinking as, I processthings with my husband.
We're always communicating inEnglish and that's not his
primary language.
So I'm even learning how thatcan impact my marriage.
I mean it let alone it atherapeutic relationship.
I am curious for someonelistening who's realizing for
(21:04):
the first time how much culture,language, and lived experience
can impact the therapy process.
It might feel overwhelming tofigure out what kind of
therapist would really be theright fit.
Maybe they're wondering how toeven start looking, especially
if there aren't many optionsthat seem to reflect their
background.
What would you recommend forsomeone trying to find a
therapist who feels culturallyaffirming and supportive, even
(21:27):
if they don't check every box?
Adriana (21:30):
Especially in Colorado, I have found that it is not very
saturated with a bilingualtherapist.
It is a great challenge.
It's what I've heard withclients that I'm working with
directly right now.
They said, oh, I found youbecause you speak Spanish and
you work with immigrants, and myparents are immigrants, so you
get it.
And although I may not a hundredpercent get it right, I don't
(21:51):
have the lived experience, but Iwas a witness.
And some of the questions that Iwould ask myself or give to
someone who was looking forsomeone that met some of these
boxes, because it's gonna bereally hard to find someone who
checks all of'em.
But most importantly isoftentimes I would say most
therapists do offer aconsultation call.
(22:13):
And some of the questions that Ihave trained, some of my young
adults that I used to mentor incollege were asking do you speak
Spanish?
What is your professionalexperience like?
What populations did you serve?
Meagan (22:27):
And that's such an important point consultations
can really help you get a feelfor a therapist's approach, what
training they've done and theircomfort level in working with
your community or your set ofvalues, even if they don't share
your background or have the samelived experiences.
It's not only about identity,it's about cultural awareness,
humility, and safety.
Adriana (22:48):
The number one thing that helped me find someone who
was not bilingual or isbilingual but is not from my
culture, is someone that I knewthat worked in community mental
health served.
Spanish speaking Latino familiesfor 10 years, had the
professional experience, studiedthe Spanish language, so she
(23:10):
spoke Spanish.
I knew she would understand andbe able to speak Spanish with me
in session.
And ultimately what drove me toconsider seeing her was those
reasons.
Now, in my work with her, do Ifeel a hundred percent seen and
comfortable?
Honestly I call myself a pintobean in session and she's Azo
(23:32):
bean.
I call her bean because I knowit's derogative to call a
Mexican beaner, but.
That's how I associate myself ina form of endearment.
But I would say that does shefully understand and grasp what
it is like to be a daughter ofimmigrants?
Probably not, primarily what'smost important is do they have
(23:52):
the professional experience?
I think a lot of the exposureand lived experience essentially
is what moves me towards.
Wanting to work with someone whomay not identify with the same
culture as me.
And when you're looking forsomeone who is the same culture
as you, it doesn't necessitatethat it's going to be a good
fit.
Being a daughter of immigrantsspeaking Spanish and having
(24:14):
experience working with refugeesand immigrants does not dictate
how well I will do working withyou.
At the end of the day, whatmatters most to me is the
relationship.
Are we understanding each other?
And if that's not present, it'snot gonna work.
So even if we took out all thoseboxes, I think those are
important things to consider aswell.
Meagan (24:37):
Absolutely.
I think that's so well said, andyou're right, I can absolutely
see how there's so much nuanceto it.
It is not just about finding atherapist who's the closest
match to your identity or yourbackground.
In fact, sometimes that can belimiting because you may miss
out on a helpful outsideperspective from a therapist
(24:57):
that doesn't exactly match youridentity or background.
So maybe the best fit isactually a therapist who we know
has the training and orbackground and lived experience
to understand your culture, berespectful and culturally
appropriate, and can also adapttheir interventions in a way
that resonate, but also bring adifferent lens that helps you
(25:18):
see your situation from newangles.
There's really no perfectformula it's about how you feel
with that therapist.
A lot of people don't realizethat you can use a consultation
call to ask meaningful questionsabout your therapist's
experience, background, andapproach.
That's your time to get a senseof whether they're the right fit
for you, not just in terms ofidentity, but how they show up
(25:40):
in the room and how they'llsupport and interact with you.
Adriana (25:44):
One of the things that oftentimes people ask is if I am
not a therapist of color,Latina, black, et cetera, you
name it how do I ensure that Itake really good care of someone
who's sitting across from methat is very different from me?
And essentially there's no blackand white answer to that.
(26:05):
Just there's no.
Specific black and white answerto how to find that therapist.
That is a good fit because Ihave found many of my friends
that are Latinas that have foundwhite therapists that have been
a way better fit than Latinatherapists that they have worked
with.
And there's just too much nuanceto really get to the little bits
(26:25):
and pieces to address that.
But essentially, when it comesto working with someone who
looks very different from you, Imean it.
It also lands on me because I'mworking with people who are from
different countries, like whenwe talk about Mexico.
Mexico has various differentstates and there's still like a
slight difference in dialect, infood, and how people communicate
(26:50):
and what certain words mean, andit varies across other cultures
as well.
That are in Latin America orCentral America like I think of
in Spanish, like in Mexico meanslike right now.
So if my mom tells me.
Go clean your room.
I that like it means now, go doit now.
Whereas in Cuba, when someonesays I that it just means, oh,
(27:13):
I'll take care of it later.
There's there, there's a bigdistinction in that and I come
back to the source of, okay,what equips me to be able to
show up for individuals thatlook different than me?
I do not believe in the conceptof.
Being culturally competentbecause in the same way as
(27:33):
therapists, no matter how muchmodalities we learn and how much
training we get, I don'tnecessarily believe that we're
ever gonna be competent in allareas.
We're constantly learning, andthat's the same perception I
have when it comes to workingwith.
Someone who's different.
Any white therapist who'sworking with another white
client, how often are theyconsulting about that
(27:53):
individual?
Because every single person thatyou're working with, the
treatment is so individualized.
And what takes me to the core ofthis is, although I do not
believe on ever being culturallycompetent.
I do believe in culturalhumility, which is essentially
you recognizing that you don'tfully understand another
(28:14):
person's experience because ofyour background and that you're
willing and open to learn fromyour client and having that
mindset when you're working withsomeone different from you.
It allows the client to be theexpert in their own life, within
their own culture experience,rather than us going in and
(28:34):
making assumptions from all thegeneralizations and stereotypes
that people have made about thatculture.
It makes me think of evenmulticultural counseling.
When I took multiculturalcounseling, I cannot tell you
how many times in the book whenit talked about working with
Hispanic clients, there was somuch generalizations and
(28:54):
stereotypes that don't fit everysingle family.
It's not the truth of the.
Human.
We need to involve ourselves andget curious about who's sitting
in front of us rather thanrelying on what Google says or
the generalizations you've readon that multicultural counseling
book, or the assumptions thatyou've made as a result of
(29:17):
surrounding yourself with thesecommunities and making
assumptions about what you haveheard.
Meagan (29:22):
I really appreciate your reframing of what it means to be
culturally competent for so manyof us, especially those of us
with privilege, it's reallyhelpful to let go of the idea
that we can ever master being ahundred percent competent in
someone else's culture.
Cultural humility reminds usthat the work is really ongoing.
(29:43):
It's about being open, willingto learn, and creating space for
clients to lead us through theirlived experience.
That's such a good point to lookat the limitations of
multicultural counseling as itstands right now.
We definitely need so much moreresearch and more development in
that area.
I.
I know even through my gradschool experience, our
multicultural counseling classand the multicultural counseling
(30:06):
textbook that we used, hadexactly one paragraph on
counseling women and the entirething.
And I don't know if I went andstarted a women's based mental
health practice, almost inresponse to that, but it was
like, wow, that is vastlyunder-explored and underserved.
And if it was that way, and Inoticed it so clearly for women,
of course it would be that wayfor other demographics as well.
(30:29):
And in so many ways, we've justscratched the surface.
But I think as a white therapisttoo it's almost a relief to hear
you say that we can never befully culturally competent.
'cause I think so many of us whorecognize our white privilege,
and we're really trying our bestto be culturally inclusive and
respectful of our clientscultures and adapt interventions
(30:50):
the right way.
It's the sense of you're nevergonna be good enough at it.
And maybe that's just part ofthe process is.
Accepting that and appreciatingthat we can never truly have
that lived experience.
So we can never be perfectly ahundred percent culturally
competent at it.
And it's more about trying toget there and doing your best
along the way, rather than everreaching that perfect level.
Adriana (31:12):
Yeah.
I think a lot of what youmentioned of what you learned in
your grad program and how therewas only one paragraph, that is.
Very synonymous to working withrefugees and immigrants.
There's no specific modalitythat tells me this is how you
work with the Somalian refugeeand this is how you work with an
Afghan, and this is how you workwith someone with Iran, and this
is how you work with someonewho's from Congo.
(31:34):
There's no.
Specific way to maneuver andfigure out what to do.
And at the end of the day, it'score to be open to growth and
learning.
And when it comes to workingwith these clients that are so
diverse, one of the things thatwe do as therapists, while I
would hope every therapist doesthis, is.
Validate validation.
(31:56):
If we validate our client'sexperiences, whether individual
or within group settings withwhatever it is that they have
survived, I.
Is going to allow them to feelfar more safe and seen and open
to being more vulnerable.
Because what I have learned inmy journey in working with
(32:19):
refugees and immigrants is thereare certain practices that sound
very bizarre.
And clients can see ourreactions and how we respond to
some of the things that they'resharing that have helped them
persevere, that help them beresilient and that have helped
them move forward.
And although what we're hearingmay sound bizarre, our role is
(32:43):
not to judge what is working forthem, but to come back.
To validate and take proactivesteps outside of our session
with them to educate ourselvesabout that specific practice.
Rather than making assumptionsof how harmful or not harmful
this is being to them, and itmoves us away from making
(33:07):
assumptions and rather insession we can get more curious
and demonstrate genuine interestand understanding their
background and their practiceand their traditions and their
values.
Meagan (33:21):
Yeah, that need for validation, and I love the word
curiosity as a counselor showingup with curiosity and a complete
lack of judgment, being able tovalidate different cultural
norms and in the way differentcoping skills work for different
people from different areas.
That's so important, especiallyin the United States, given that
(33:41):
we are a melting pot and acountry founded by immigrants.
The fact that this country wasbuilt by immigrants is the
beauty of it.
Diversity is the beauty thiscountry, and I wish it was
better reflected in the mentalhealth field and all medical
fields.
We have so much research to doand such a long way to go, but I
(34:01):
think a lot.
That you've shared here today isparamount and key to that
process.
And as we're closing out andgetting to the end of our time,
I am wondering if you can sharea little bit to the clients who
are listening to this and sayingyes, I totally am on board.
I really feel like I need to dothe work to find a really good
counselor that matches me andunderstands my culture enough to
(34:23):
support me.
What would you say are maybesome red flags for those clients
to look out for?
When they're searching for atherapist, or maybe even if
they're already working for witha therapist and are not feeling
like it works out, what arethose red flags of a therapist
who is not culturally inclusive?
Adriana (34:40):
I would be curious to know about are there any
culturally relevant approachesthat they have to therapy?
Are they utilizing techniquesthat resonate within a client's
value system?
Whether that's narrative therapybecause narrative therapy, like
just even narrative exposuretherapy that was created in the
Middle East, like a lot ofcollectivists and cultures are
(35:01):
storytellers and they wannabring in stories and they wanna
unpack those stories.
Are we integrating that?
Are we integrating their.
Spiritual frameworks that existwithin their culture.
Are they making attempts toengage in cultural adaptations?
Because the modalities that wework with here within Western
(35:21):
therapy, there's, they're verywesternized, but do they make
the effort to bring in culture?
Into those Western modalities,and at the end of the day, are
they willing to be curious tolearn about the context of where
they come from, to ensure that Iand the client speaking for
(35:43):
myself or the person who'slooking for the therapist can
feel safe?
Most importantly, seen andheard.
Meagan (35:52):
Well said.
You are just such aninspiration, Adriana, and I
thank you so much for comingonto the podcast today to share
your wisdom about this.
It is clearly something that is,so inherently personal and
important to you.
It's.
Something we can feel yourpassion in and you just have so
much to offer to your clientsand to your fellow therapists as
(36:13):
well.
I wanna thank you for your timeand wanna invite you to share if
you have any last minutethoughts for other Latinas out
there who may be listening.
If there's anything you wannashare to them,
Adriana (36:24):
all I wanna say to all you Latinas is
Meagan (36:29):
Thank you, Adriana.
Today's conversation reminds usthat therapy is never one size
fits all.
A therapist culture, language,and lived experience matter, but
so do continuing education,humility, curiosity and safety.
whether you're a client seekingcare or a fellow clinician doing
the work, their relationship isat the heart of healing.
Adriana, thank you so much for being here and talking
with me today about culturallyinclusive counseling.
Can you just take a moment andintroduce yourself to our
listeners, tell'em a little bitabout you.
Adriana (00:40):
I am Adriana Martin de Tore, and I'm pronouncing it
this way because this is theproper way to pronounce my name,
but in America they pronounce itdifferently.
And I am a bilingual biculturaltherapist who serves clients
here at her time therapy, andanother nonprofit outside
working with refugees andimmigrants.
Meagan (01:02):
That's vitally important work now more than ever.
So thank you for the specialwork you do and all of the
expertise that you bring to usat her time.
It's truly valued.
Adriana (01:13):
Thank you.
It's an honor and a privilege toserve these communities.
Meagan (01:17):
Absolutely.
So we're here to talk todayabout culturally inclusive
counseling and the role oflanguage and culture within the
therapeutic space and how it cansometimes be really beneficial
for people to do a little bit ofextra work to find a counselor
that really understands theirculture and is inclusive.
(01:39):
Sometimes that will include thecounselor speaking their native
language, or sometimes it canlook a lot of different ways and
there's maybe some pros and consto working with a counselor from
a different cultural backgroundtoo.
I'd love to start by hearingyour thoughts on why it's
important in the therapy spaceto have a counselor.
That is culturally inclusive andthat really understands the
(02:02):
culture that the client comesfrom.
Adriana (02:04):
Yes.
That's a really great question.
And I think just as anyone whowas born in the US we're
constantly influenced by cultureand society and culture
influences how we viewourselves, the relationships
around us and the world aroundthem.
So when we're talking aboutclients, if we don't understand
(02:25):
the context to where they comefrom, it's gonna be really hard
to be able to.
Understand what they value andhow they manage whatever it is
that they practice.
When we take the time tounderstand and respect an
individual's culturalbackground, it allows the client
to feel validated within theirown lived experience and the.
(02:47):
Multiple identities thatintersect with who they are.
And when that is left uncheckedand not acknowledged, it can
leave a client feeling likethey're being dismissed or
they're feeling misunderstood.
A great example I can think ofis any individual who comes from
a collectivistic culture mayprioritize family and community
(03:08):
over individual needs.
And if a therapist really missesthat.
It's going to really shape how.
Harmful it will feel for theclient when it comes to
discussing coping mechanismsthat don't involve the community
or the family.
And it makes me think of theconcept of boundaries.
I think Western culture manytimes removes people and I.
(03:32):
Pushes them out to do what'sagainst cultural norms within a
client's culture.
And as a therapist, if we don'tknow how much a client values
interdependence and the roleswithin a family system, we're
teaching them how to cope inways that are gonna further
isolate them and create moredistress within their own
(03:53):
wellbeing, and it's gonna createmore tension in their own
families as well.
Meagan (03:57):
Yeah, you did such a wonderful job summarizing that,
and that's really interesting tohear you frame it in that lens
of, and maybe this is a summaryof what I'm understanding you're
saying is for one client, youcan talk about setting
boundaries that are moreindividualistic and focused on
them and what they need in theirlife, and it works great.
But that same intervention for aclient from a more collectivist
(04:20):
culture that.
Really views the family dynamicas the priority it can actually
serve to isolate them and evenbe harmful.
Whereas an intervention is greatfor one person, it can be
harmful to the other if you'renot paying attention to the
differences in culture.
Adriana (04:38):
Yes, a hundred percent.
It's gonna further perpetuatethe distress that they're
already experiencing withintheir family, especially if
we're pulling them todifferentiate, rather than
helping them lean more intotheir culture and engage in
cultural adaptations that fittheir value system.
And it's gonna take exploringthat together with a client
rather than making assumptions.
(05:00):
And of course, our role astherapists is to learn a little
bit about their culture, butmost importantly, the client is
ultimately the expert andthere's a fine balance in
navigating that.
Meagan (05:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And here at hard time we dospecialize in working more with
those who are women and identifyas women.
So I'd love to hear yourthoughts a little bit about how
the cultural issues applyspecifically to your female
clientele.
And are there any presentingissues that you see often in
your work with women and how youmaybe change your interventions
(05:35):
for them?
Adriana (05:36):
Yes.
A lot of the common themes thatI notice specifically with
immigrants or daughters ofimmigrants, it's very common for
them to feel a sense of guiltand betrayal as they're
assimilating into US culture.
Whether it's like them not beingborn here or being first gen,
(05:58):
which.
First generation, which meansyou are the first born in this
country and the tensions thatyou can experience when there is
mixed legal statuses within thefamily on top of what this
country requires of you to besuccessful versus what.
(06:18):
A family considers to besuccessful can look very
different across cultures.
And speaking specifically tolike Mexican American woman or
women that were born in Mexico,it's very common for them to
feel pulled to differentdirections when it comes to
their assimilation process andwhat their parents want for them
(06:39):
versus what they want forthemselves.
And that differentiation processis what?
Brings a lot of anxiety anddepression because there's this
sense of I really want to pleasemy family and I want to honor
the family values that I wasraised in, and I also want to
have my own values and how can Icreate a balance and
(07:02):
integrating.
Both, and that can be verydistressing as these women are
developing their identity,especially when they're moving
on to become professionals andthey're not meeting up to the
standards and expectations thatthey're held to culturally.
Meagan (07:17):
Wow.
So it really does set up thissituation where it's almost like
they can't win.
If they fully Americanizethemselves and become quote
unquote successful from thedominant American perspective,
they're disappointing andisolating family members.
But if they please family, thenthey're not functioning in this
other domain.
So it's very hard to win.
(07:40):
In the big sense,
Adriana (07:42):
it really is, it's really hard to win because on
one hand you wanna be successfuland your perception of success
is not gonna reflect what momand dad perceive as success.
And that's where more tensioncan be created and it can be
really hard.
To dismantle all of that and beable to create your own sense of
(08:03):
self.
And this is where I believeWestern therapy comes into play,
where the key focus is onindividual needs and boundaries.
But a lot of the times thosedisconnect us from connection in
the unity and harmony that thesefamilies expect of these young
women who are.
Just wanting to strive andthrive to be successful,
(08:26):
whatever it is that may be forthem.
But then they're grappling withwhat mom and dad are saying is
successful, and it's not evenjust mom and dad.
Oftentimes, a lot of immigrantfamilies come with extended
families, so now they're alsogetting that external pressure
when they see their own cousinsliving up to the standards that
the family expects, the cultureexpects, and sometimes both can
(08:49):
be conflated because family.
Has their own values.
That's its own little system.
And then there's also culture.
And if we think of it like herein the US there's also other
systems that continue to oppressthese marginalized groups of
people.
And I wanna throw these in herebecause these are other systemic
barriers and challenges thatthese women face on top of
(09:12):
navigating what culture says,what this culture says in the
us.
What their family says, what theextended family says.
And then if we throw inreligion, that's like another
thing that also layers it more.
So there's a lot of systems thatwe're working with.
And when it comes to womennavigating these, and many times
(09:34):
I would say oftentimes womenjust feel like they're not doing
enough and they feel pulled towanting, needing to be
superwoman and.
Having to navigate being thisand this.
And I think that's whereidentity crisis can happen often
because we're constantly wantingto serve this culture and we're
dismissing ourselves, and that'swhere we get lost in our
(09:55):
identity.
And we don't know who we arebecause we want to be someone,
but we also don't wanna dismissour roots and where we come
from.
And I know.
Speaking for myself, that can besomething that I experience
where it's
like,
I really want to do this because this is what's
gonna be best, and I don't wantto submit to a dynamic that's
(10:17):
not helpful and dysfunctionaland at the expense of losing
this relationship which is bestfor me.
I think that's the hardest part,because we're also working with
grief as layers are beingpeeled.
Meagan (10:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
As you were mentioning all ofthese systems that women are
grappling with, one of thethings that came to mind is how
in a lot of my sessions, so manywomen will come in and say this
person says this, but then thisother expectation says this, and
I don't know who to listen to.
And oftentimes I'll ask.
Them.
What do you think?
(10:50):
Because I hear what you know, 10other people in your world are
telling you to do and what theythink, but what do you think?
And sometimes that's the firsttime they've ever been asked
that and been challenged toactually listen to themselves.
Rather than all of the peoplethat are a part of all these
other systems.
I'm curious if you've also foundthat to be true in sessions and
how you work across all of thesedomains where we wanna build up
(11:13):
the personal empowerment andpersonal autonomy to hear your
own voice, but also recognizingthat especially in more diverse
cultures, we really do need toincorporate the family and the
family system beliefs as well.
Adriana (11:27):
That is a really great question because, oftentimes I
would think just even asking thequestion, what do you think can
be so overwhelming?
Because their whole life, theywere literally making choices.
That supported the whole system.
It was never about them, but itwas always about the family.
It was never about how is thisgonna benefit me before I even
(11:48):
consider my family?
It's how is this gonna benefitmy family before I even consider
myself?
There's so many voices that aretaunting them about where do I
move next?
And that's where guilt shows up.
A lot of guilt is.
Just manifest of I feel bad ifI.
Think about myself and what itis that I need.
(12:09):
How are my parents gonna look atme?
Are they gonna stop talking tome?
Does this mean that therelationship I have with them is
conditional based off of how I'mbenefiting them?
And I think this also brings itto socioeconomic status, right?
If we're working towards healingand we're wanting to support
someone, find their voice.
(12:30):
It's really hard to find thatvoice when there's other layers
and barriers that are keepingyou from moving forward.
Because if you don't have theresources and you don't have the
finances, self-care is out thewindow.
If you're just in survival modeand you're trying to live up to
the standards of your parentsand you have no room to be able
to move forward.
So I don't have a specificanswer to your question of how
(12:55):
to navigate strategically whatthat means other than.
Framing it more how do you thinkyour family would respond to
this?
Or what do you think your familywould be most supportive of?
Incorporating one of theindividuals from the family
system?
Because when we're talking aboutfamilies, especially women, if
we're gonna throw in genderroles.
(13:16):
Every single person in thefamily has a role.
And speaking for Mexicanfamilies, there's a hierarchy.
So oftentimes when a woman isasked, what do you think it it's
stripping off things that theyhave.
It's difficult for them to evenconsider because their whole
life, they've been dominated bysomeone else making the choices
for them because they neverreally had a choice.
(13:37):
Even when they gave their owninput, it wasn't always
considered.
It opens up a can of worms, inother words, and the most
helpful ways to integratefamily.
But I think ultimately it comesback to the client and
identifying where are they intheir assimilation and
acculturation process in this.
Country and that will give youall the information to know, is
(13:58):
it safe for me to start toindividualize this individual
and move them towards this way,while also acknowledging like,
Hey, if you start to move moretowards Western values, this is
gonna be a threat to your familysystem.
There's going to be responsesbecause you are dancing a whole
nother rhythm than what yourfamily has been your whole life.
(14:20):
So be prepared and I'm here tosupport you to walk with you.
Meagan (14:24):
As you're describing that a question that came to my
mind was where do you tend tostart with clients?
But as you kept talking, it waslike there is no one starting
point.
It really seems as a therapist,you meet with your clients and
just see where are they at inthat process of being completely
ingrained within the familysystem, or how much of a
individualized self are they?
(14:45):
Able to recognize and startingwith their highest point of
distress and figuring out whereto go from there.
Adriana (14:53):
That is one of the ways I would say what I do with most
of my clients is I like to ask'em about their migration
journey.
Even if they were not the oneswho were the first to migrate
into this country, theirparents' migration journey had a
huge impact on them, and that'swhere we bring in
intergenerational trauma andsome of the presenting symptoms
that they may be experiencing.
(15:14):
And when we.
Spend time exploring thatmigration journey that gives me
more information about when thedate that they arrived and if I
know the date that they arrived.
That gives me information abouthow many years they've been in
this country and how assimilatedthey are.
And I also ask about their homelife.
(15:34):
And what a typical day lookslike for them.
And one of the greatestquestions that helps inform me
of how assimilated they trulyare, aside from how long they've
been in the country, is when itcomes to decision making.
Who's involved?
Is it just you or is your familyinvolved?
And once I have all these piecesto the puzzle that I'm
(15:55):
formulating in my mind, it'swhen I bring it back to goal
setting.
And because I am more clientcentered, I don't like to
structure therapy in any way.
I let them guide me in wherewe're going next, as soon as we
have specific goals, and startworking towards that direction.
All of the background I gain isjust for me to know what am I
(16:19):
working with and how can Iensure that when we ever have a
conversation about boundaries orboundaries ever comes up.
Does it mean we're gonna do moreWestern boundaries, or is it
gonna be more biculturalboundaries, or we bring in your
cultural and family values andadapt whatever Western therapies
(16:39):
have to say about creatingboundaries.
And rather than teaching copingskills where we separate you and
isolate you from the stressor,can we bring in some of those
values like family?
To engage in some of thesecoping skills with you.
So if we're gonna have someonecomplete a technique for the
stress response cycle, forexample, rather than telling my
(17:02):
client, I want you to go hikeand jog down the mountain so
that you can complete that cyclein your nervous system can get
regulated.
I would instead invite them tohave a family get together and
go hike together.
Meagan (17:18):
That's such a great example of still pulling in a
evidence-based strategy, butmaking it accessible and
honoring their culture in doingit.
I really love this approach thatyou're taking and even just the
question of what's yourmigration journey, even if you
were born here.
That is really powerful to get asense of their bigger picture
(17:39):
worldview.
And in a lot of ways I imaginejust exploring the answer to
that question really helps themlearn the connection between
that migration journey and someof the distressing symptoms
they're feeling and areimpacting them today.
And I think that's a lot of thework we do as counselors is
helping people connect the dotsin their own lives.
And even just figuring out like,why am I this way?
(18:02):
Why am I struggling in thisparticular fashion?
And being able to connect thosedots helps give them a little
bit of empowerment to say I'mnot just crazy.
I'm not broken.
There's nothing actually wrongwith me.
This actually all makes a lot ofsense when you look at it in the
big picture.
Adriana (18:17):
A hundred percent.
And as you're describing all ofthose pieces that help
contribute to their story andintegrating who they are, which
is amazing to see it all unfoldin therapy.
One of the things that came tomind when exploring the
migration journey and goalsetting is language.
(18:38):
I think language is.
So important because in myexperience in working with
different cultures, there's somany idioms that do not
translate well in English.
And when we're working withsomeone whose native language is
Spanish, there's a lot of idiomsin Spanish that dictate how an
individual's internal world isthat cannot be understood in
(19:00):
English.
The best example I can think ofthat I heard many times, and I
know a lot of my clients heardit when they were teens.
Speaking directly to Latinas isa lot of Latina moms would say,
which translates to, don't youcome home with your Sunday
seven?
(19:20):
And if you hear that, you'relike, what the heck does that
even mean?
Essentially it's like an idiom.
And what it means is mom issaying, I hope you don't come
home pregnant.
It makes no sense when youtranslate it word by word.
And I wanna highlight languageas.
Something that is very crucialto just the therapeutic
relationship and ensuring thatyou're both understanding each
(19:41):
other when it comes to emotionalexpression.
Idioms are a great way for a lotof cultures to express
themselves other than religionand what they use within their
religion to and instill hope forone another.
But research shows that.
An individual's native languageis their best way of being able
(20:02):
to express how they feel.
So if I have someone who'sbilingual and their first
language was Spanish and Englishwas second, I have even noticed
things in my own clients thateven though they prefer to do
therapy in both English andSpanish, I have found that when
they're.
Describing very painfulexperiences and they're
(20:23):
describing and naming theiremotions.
It's in their native language.
And research reflects that we doour best expressing ourselves in
our native language, and when wedon't have to offer that other
language, it makes it reallyhard for a client to emotionally
process what they're coming intotherapy for.
Meagan (20:42):
Wow, that's really impressive.
And I didn't know about thatresearch.
That's really interesting.
I'm even thinking as, I processthings with my husband.
We're always communicating inEnglish and that's not his
primary language.
So I'm even learning how thatcan impact my marriage.
I mean it let alone it atherapeutic relationship.
I am curious for someonelistening who's realizing for
(21:04):
the first time how much culture,language, and lived experience
can impact the therapy process.
It might feel overwhelming tofigure out what kind of
therapist would really be theright fit.
Maybe they're wondering how toeven start looking, especially
if there aren't many optionsthat seem to reflect their
background.
What would you recommend forsomeone trying to find a
therapist who feels culturallyaffirming and supportive, even
(21:27):
if they don't check every box?
Adriana (21:30):
Especially in Colorado, I have found that it is not very
saturated with a bilingualtherapist.
It is a great challenge.
It's what I've heard withclients that I'm working with
directly right now.
They said, oh, I found youbecause you speak Spanish and
you work with immigrants, and myparents are immigrants, so you
get it.
And although I may not a hundredpercent get it right, I don't
(21:51):
have the lived experience, but Iwas a witness.
And some of the questions that Iwould ask myself or give to
someone who was looking forsomeone that met some of these
boxes, because it's gonna bereally hard to find someone who
checks all of'em.
But most importantly isoftentimes I would say most
therapists do offer aconsultation call.
(22:13):
And some of the questions that Ihave trained, some of my young
adults that I used to mentor incollege were asking do you speak
Spanish?
What is your professionalexperience like?
What populations did you serve?
Meagan (22:27):
And that's such an important point consultations
can really help you get a feelfor a therapist's approach, what
training they've done and theircomfort level in working with
your community or your set ofvalues, even if they don't share
your background or have the samelived experiences.
It's not only about identity,it's about cultural awareness,
humility, and safety.
Adriana (22:48):
The number one thing that helped me find someone who
was not bilingual or isbilingual but is not from my
culture, is someone that I knewthat worked in community mental
health served.
Spanish speaking Latino familiesfor 10 years, had the
professional experience, studiedthe Spanish language, so she
(23:10):
spoke Spanish.
I knew she would understand andbe able to speak Spanish with me
in session.
And ultimately what drove me toconsider seeing her was those
reasons.
Now, in my work with her, do Ifeel a hundred percent seen and
comfortable?
Honestly I call myself a pintobean in session and she's Azo
(23:32):
bean.
I call her bean because I knowit's derogative to call a
Mexican beaner, but.
That's how I associate myself ina form of endearment.
But I would say that does shefully understand and grasp what
it is like to be a daughter ofimmigrants?
Probably not, primarily what'smost important is do they have
(23:52):
the professional experience?
I think a lot of the exposureand lived experience essentially
is what moves me towards.
Wanting to work with someone whomay not identify with the same
culture as me.
And when you're looking forsomeone who is the same culture
as you, it doesn't necessitatethat it's going to be a good
fit.
Being a daughter of immigrantsspeaking Spanish and having
(24:14):
experience working with refugeesand immigrants does not dictate
how well I will do working withyou.
At the end of the day, whatmatters most to me is the
relationship.
Are we understanding each other?
And if that's not present, it'snot gonna work.
So even if we took out all thoseboxes, I think those are
important things to consider aswell.
Meagan (24:37):
Absolutely.
I think that's so well said, andyou're right, I can absolutely
see how there's so much nuanceto it.
It is not just about finding atherapist who's the closest
match to your identity or yourbackground.
In fact, sometimes that can belimiting because you may miss
out on a helpful outsideperspective from a therapist
(24:57):
that doesn't exactly match youridentity or background.
So maybe the best fit isactually a therapist who we know
has the training and orbackground and lived experience
to understand your culture, berespectful and culturally
appropriate, and can also adapttheir interventions in a way
that resonate, but also bring adifferent lens that helps you
(25:18):
see your situation from newangles.
There's really no perfectformula it's about how you feel
with that therapist.
A lot of people don't realizethat you can use a consultation
call to ask meaningful questionsabout your therapist's
experience, background, andapproach.
That's your time to get a senseof whether they're the right fit
for you, not just in terms ofidentity, but how they show up
(25:40):
in the room and how they'llsupport and interact with you.
Adriana (25:44):
One of the things that oftentimes people ask is if I am
not a therapist of color,Latina, black, et cetera, you
name it how do I ensure that Itake really good care of someone
who's sitting across from methat is very different from me?
And essentially there's no blackand white answer to that.
(26:05):
Just there's no.
Specific black and white answerto how to find that therapist.
That is a good fit because Ihave found many of my friends
that are Latinas that have foundwhite therapists that have been
a way better fit than Latinatherapists that they have worked
with.
And there's just too much nuanceto really get to the little bits
(26:25):
and pieces to address that.
But essentially, when it comesto working with someone who
looks very different from you, Imean it.
It also lands on me because I'mworking with people who are from
different countries, like whenwe talk about Mexico.
Mexico has various differentstates and there's still like a
slight difference in dialect, infood, and how people communicate
(26:50):
and what certain words mean, andit varies across other cultures
as well.
That are in Latin America orCentral America like I think of
in Spanish, like in Mexico meanslike right now.
So if my mom tells me.
Go clean your room.
I that like it means now, go doit now.
Whereas in Cuba, when someonesays I that it just means, oh,
(27:13):
I'll take care of it later.
There's there, there's a bigdistinction in that and I come
back to the source of, okay,what equips me to be able to
show up for individuals thatlook different than me?
I do not believe in the conceptof.
Being culturally competentbecause in the same way as
(27:33):
therapists, no matter how muchmodalities we learn and how much
training we get, I don'tnecessarily believe that we're
ever gonna be competent in allareas.
We're constantly learning, andthat's the same perception I
have when it comes to workingwith.
Someone who's different.
Any white therapist who'sworking with another white
client, how often are theyconsulting about that
(27:53):
individual?
Because every single person thatyou're working with, the
treatment is so individualized.
And what takes me to the core ofthis is, although I do not
believe on ever being culturallycompetent.
I do believe in culturalhumility, which is essentially
you recognizing that you don'tfully understand another
(28:14):
person's experience because ofyour background and that you're
willing and open to learn fromyour client and having that
mindset when you're working withsomeone different from you.
It allows the client to be theexpert in their own life, within
their own culture experience,rather than us going in and
(28:34):
making assumptions from all thegeneralizations and stereotypes
that people have made about thatculture.
It makes me think of evenmulticultural counseling.
When I took multiculturalcounseling, I cannot tell you
how many times in the book whenit talked about working with
Hispanic clients, there was somuch generalizations and
(28:54):
stereotypes that don't fit everysingle family.
It's not the truth of the.
Human.
We need to involve ourselves andget curious about who's sitting
in front of us rather thanrelying on what Google says or
the generalizations you've readon that multicultural counseling
book, or the assumptions thatyou've made as a result of
(29:17):
surrounding yourself with thesecommunities and making
assumptions about what you haveheard.
Meagan (29:22):
I really appreciate your reframing of what it means to be
culturally competent for so manyof us, especially those of us
with privilege, it's reallyhelpful to let go of the idea
that we can ever master being ahundred percent competent in
someone else's culture.
Cultural humility reminds usthat the work is really ongoing.
(29:43):
It's about being open, willingto learn, and creating space for
clients to lead us through theirlived experience.
That's such a good point to lookat the limitations of
multicultural counseling as itstands right now.
We definitely need so much moreresearch and more development in
that area.
I.
I know even through my gradschool experience, our
multicultural counseling classand the multicultural counseling
(30:06):
textbook that we used, hadexactly one paragraph on
counseling women and the entirething.
And I don't know if I went andstarted a women's based mental
health practice, almost inresponse to that, but it was
like, wow, that is vastlyunder-explored and underserved.
And if it was that way, and Inoticed it so clearly for women,
of course it would be that wayfor other demographics as well.
(30:29):
And in so many ways, we've justscratched the surface.
But I think as a white therapisttoo it's almost a relief to hear
you say that we can never befully culturally competent.
'cause I think so many of us whorecognize our white privilege,
and we're really trying our bestto be culturally inclusive and
respectful of our clientscultures and adapt interventions
(30:50):
the right way.
It's the sense of you're nevergonna be good enough at it.
And maybe that's just part ofthe process is.
Accepting that and appreciatingthat we can never truly have
that lived experience.
So we can never be perfectly ahundred percent culturally
competent at it.
And it's more about trying toget there and doing your best
along the way, rather than everreaching that perfect level.
Adriana (31:12):
Yeah.
I think a lot of what youmentioned of what you learned in
your grad program and how therewas only one paragraph, that is.
Very synonymous to working withrefugees and immigrants.
There's no specific modalitythat tells me this is how you
work with the Somalian refugeeand this is how you work with an
Afghan, and this is how you workwith someone with Iran, and this
is how you work with someonewho's from Congo.
(31:34):
There's no.
Specific way to maneuver andfigure out what to do.
And at the end of the day, it'score to be open to growth and
learning.
And when it comes to workingwith these clients that are so
diverse, one of the things thatwe do as therapists, while I
would hope every therapist doesthis, is.
Validate validation.
(31:56):
If we validate our client'sexperiences, whether individual
or within group settings withwhatever it is that they have
survived, I.
Is going to allow them to feelfar more safe and seen and open
to being more vulnerable.
Because what I have learned inmy journey in working with
(32:19):
refugees and immigrants is thereare certain practices that sound
very bizarre.
And clients can see ourreactions and how we respond to
some of the things that they'resharing that have helped them
persevere, that help them beresilient and that have helped
them move forward.
And although what we're hearingmay sound bizarre, our role is
(32:43):
not to judge what is working forthem, but to come back.
To validate and take proactivesteps outside of our session
with them to educate ourselvesabout that specific practice.
Rather than making assumptionsof how harmful or not harmful
this is being to them, and itmoves us away from making
(33:07):
assumptions and rather insession we can get more curious
and demonstrate genuine interestand understanding their
background and their practiceand their traditions and their
values.
Meagan (33:21):
Yeah, that need for validation, and I love the word
curiosity as a counselor showingup with curiosity and a complete
lack of judgment, being able tovalidate different cultural
norms and in the way differentcoping skills work for different
people from different areas.
That's so important, especiallyin the United States, given that
(33:41):
we are a melting pot and acountry founded by immigrants.
The fact that this country wasbuilt by immigrants is the
beauty of it.
Diversity is the beauty thiscountry, and I wish it was
better reflected in the mentalhealth field and all medical
fields.
We have so much research to doand such a long way to go, but I
(34:01):
think a lot.
That you've shared here today isparamount and key to that
process.
And as we're closing out andgetting to the end of our time,
I am wondering if you can sharea little bit to the clients who
are listening to this and sayingyes, I totally am on board.
I really feel like I need to dothe work to find a really good
counselor that matches me andunderstands my culture enough to
(34:23):
support me.
What would you say are maybesome red flags for those clients
to look out for?
When they're searching for atherapist, or maybe even if
they're already working for witha therapist and are not feeling
like it works out, what arethose red flags of a therapist
who is not culturally inclusive?
Adriana (34:40):
I would be curious to know about are there any
culturally relevant approachesthat they have to therapy?
Are they utilizing techniquesthat resonate within a client's
value system?
Whether that's narrative therapybecause narrative therapy, like
just even narrative exposuretherapy that was created in the
Middle East, like a lot ofcollectivists and cultures are
(35:01):
storytellers and they wannabring in stories and they wanna
unpack those stories.
Are we integrating that?
Are we integrating their.
Spiritual frameworks that existwithin their culture.
Are they making attempts toengage in cultural adaptations?
Because the modalities that wework with here within Western
(35:21):
therapy, there's, they're verywesternized, but do they make
the effort to bring in culture?
Into those Western modalities,and at the end of the day, are
they willing to be curious tolearn about the context of where
they come from, to ensure that Iand the client speaking for
(35:43):
myself or the person who'slooking for the therapist can
feel safe?
Most importantly, seen andheard.
Meagan (35:52):
Well said.
You are just such aninspiration, Adriana, and I
thank you so much for comingonto the podcast today to share
your wisdom about this.
It is clearly something that is,so inherently personal and
important to you.
It's.
Something we can feel yourpassion in and you just have so
much to offer to your clientsand to your fellow therapists as
(36:13):
well.
I wanna thank you for your timeand wanna invite you to share if
you have any last minutethoughts for other Latinas out
there who may be listening.
If there's anything you wannashare to them,
Adriana (36:24):
all I wanna say to all you Latinas is
Meagan (36:29):
Thank you, Adriana.
Today's conversation reminds usthat therapy is never one size
fits all.
A therapist culture, language,and lived experience matter, but
so do continuing education,humility, curiosity and safety.
whether you're a client seekingcare or a fellow clinician doing
the work, their relationship isat the heart of healing.
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