What does it mean to live a life that’s truly your own? In this unforgettable Pride Month episode, we’re joined by Angelique Piwinski, a trans elder, educator, and sharp-witted New Yorker whose story stretches from the Stonewall Uprising to corporate boardrooms and beyond.
With warmth, humor, and a lifetime of perspective, Angie reflects on what it took to step into her truth—after decades of hiding it. From transitioning while serving as a senior executive in New York’s fast-paced advertising world, to helping shape inclusive policy at every level, Angie’s life is a masterclass in resilience, reinvention, and radical self-acceptance.
But this isn’t just a history lesson. It’s a soul-stirring reminder that authenticity is activism—and that sometimes, the most powerful thing we can do is simply be ourselves.
Whether you're navigating your own identity, supporting someone who is, or learning how to show up better as an ally, this conversation invites you to rethink what it means to live boldly.
Because it’s never too late to be the real you.
Stay Connected + Support the Show
- Follow us @HerTimeToTalk
- Visit our website to connect with a therapist or learn more
- Become a patron and support the podcast
If this episode moved you, empowered you, or taught you something new—be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share with someone who needs to hear it.
This is your time. Your story matters. Your voice is powerful. And your mental health is worth prioritizing.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meagan (00:28):
Today I am here with Sydney, who is the producer for
the Her Time to Talk podcast anda very special guest that I'm
honored and excited to speakwith.
Today's guest has a long andpowerful rap sheet of accolades,
accomplishments, and leadershiproles spanning over five decades
in both the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A plusadvocacy space and corporate DI
(00:50):
world.
Is a trans elder and educatorand a nationally recognized
speaker whose work has left alasting mark across industries
and communities.
A New York native.
Angie retired as seniordiversity and inclusion program
specialist from InterpublicGroup, a global communications
(01:11):
company with over 90 agenciesand nearly 60,000 employees.
She holds the distinction ofbeing the most senior employee
in IPGs history to transition tofemale, and she did so while
serving as the executive VPacross multiple global firms in
the advertising world.
Beyond corporate leadership,Angie served on the LGBTQIA plus
(01:33):
Advisory Board to the mayor ofYonkers, new York's third
largest city, where she played akey role in securing a perfect
equality score from the humanrights campaign year after year.
She was a World Pride ambassadorfor New York State, a recipient
of the Michael Sabino LegacyAward, and was recently honored
in a citywide proclamationdeclaring Angeline Polinsky day
(01:56):
during pride in 2024.
She's also a communityhistorian, an ordained Episcopal
church leader, a documentarynarrator and a public educator
whose work spans from city hallsto museum galleries.
And most remarkably, she stoodat the Stonewall Uprising in
1969, witnessing firsthand amoment that would ignite a
(02:18):
global movement.
We are beyond honored andwelcome Angelique to the show
during what we know is anincredibly busy and emotionally
charged pride month.
Her voice carries the weight ofhistory and the clarity of lived
truth, and we're so gratefulthat she's here to talk with us
today.
(02:40):
Her voice carries the weight ofhistory and the clarity of lived
truth, and we're so gratefulshe's here with us today.
So Angie, thank you so much forbeing here.
How are you feeling coming intotoday's conversation?
Angie (02:53):
Oh, I'm feeling great.
This is something I enjoy doing.
And I think it's important for alot of people to hear, and those
who don't wanna hear it, don'tlisten.
Simple as that.
Meagan (03:04):
Simple as that.
We couldn't agree more.
So we are very intentionallyrecording this during Pride
month of 2025, and we're reallycurious to hear from you, what
does Pride Month mean to you nowat this stage in your life and
your advocacy, especially giveneverything that's happening
today, politically andculturally?
Angie (03:23):
that's a really interesting question because I
look back on the origins ofPride and originally back in the
year after Stonewall, they did amarch in New York City and they
were trying to figure out whatto name it, how to, how do you
wrap this?
So it was a celebration of this,but on the other hand.
(03:47):
One of the people said maybeit's it's gay power.
The word power was big in theseventies, as, black power, gay
power, flower power.
We had all that stuff.
But, one of the organizers said,we don't have any power.
But we have pride in who we areas people.
And e everyone, no matter whothey are, can have pride in
(04:08):
something.
It's not something that it'ssomething you've accomplished.
And it doesn't have to be this,it could be something else.
So I'm always feeling good thatwe still continue to acknowledge
and celebrate pride, if youwill.
And it's, changing all the time.
(04:30):
We're in a difficult periodright now where, not that we
weren't in the sixties becausethey were violent and difficult
and, so we've come full circle.
Not quite as bad as it was backthen, but we are there and we're
getting there.
And of course, to me this issimply a distraction from all
the other stuff that Washingtonseems to want to do.
(04:53):
I frame it that way.
There's 2 million of us transpeople out there.
Based latest, polling Gallupjust did a poll that talked
about 9.3% of the US populationis LGBTQ plus.
That is a lot of people figuring330 million people roughly in
(05:14):
this country.
That's a lot of people.
It would be the second largeststate if we were all living
together.
So that's a lot.
And the other piece that'sreally good comforting to me as.
As I see history evolving is inthat same study, they looked at
different age cohorts, and mygeneration, the baby boomers,
(05:36):
the numbers were like 2.2%,2.3%.
'cause a lot of us,unfortunately, aren't with us
anymore.
And some were having moredifficulty.
But Generation Z, those who arejust in that beginning adulthood
stage 23 point something percentidentified as L-G-B-T-Q, what
(05:59):
that tells me is the future isgoing to be really good.
Because all these old peoplewho, and I'm not including
myself in that yet, who prepredisposed to throw us all
under the bus because you'reweird, you're crazy or whatever,
your mental illness, blah, blah.
They'll all be gone and theyoungest generation will be
(06:20):
taking over.
So anybody who is in any kind ofleadership position should
recognize that, this is atemporary thing in my opinion.
It's not as bad as it was in thesixties.
It could get there, but so farit's not there yet.
So I tend to be a little moreoptimistic than most.
Meagan (06:39):
I think that's what we need right now, certainly is a
voice of optimism and someperspective and the history of
it all.
And I think that data that youshared here of, if we put all
this.
Population together, we'd be thesecond largest state.
I think that's a verysignificant point of data to put
imagery together that reallyshows, we're not going anywhere.
(07:01):
This is not a community that canbe squashed.
This is a community that hasalways been here and will always
be here, and we're in a certainiteration of the fight, so to
speak.
But yeah that's a very powerfulimagery you gave us.
Angie (07:14):
I honestly do think that, again, I'm basically because of
the industry that was a part ofdata was important.
I always looked at data and whenI see a positive trend, it's
telling me the future's gonna begood.
I won't be around.
But for those in generation Zwho will become my age, the
(07:35):
world will be very different anddifferent in a hopefully good
way.
Meagan (07:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
What would you say from yourperspective, are some of the
things that need to happen tocontinue to create that positive
future that the data isforecasting here?
Angie (07:52):
Stories telling our stories, being out there, being
visible but not visible.
I was never one of those let mehold up the banners and all that
stuff.
I was just out there doingsomething good for the greater
community, not necessarily theLGBTQ plus community, but just
being a part of the community.
(08:13):
And I was on many differentboards not having to do with
L-G-B-T-Q.
I was on the LandmarksPreservation board for the City
of Yonkers for 10 years.
We made a lot of progress.
Landmarking properties spreadingthe love of history.
I actually have a Facebook groupdedicated to local history.
(08:34):
I have 15,000 people in thegroup.
I'm the only admin.
So the idea is even some of theboards I was on when I was in
that process of doing thistransition, my board members, I
was president of one of them andI said to the vice president I
said I'm gonna be doing thistransitional thing now.
(08:56):
And she said to me, you knowwhat?
If anyone on this board has aproblem with that, then they
should resign because what youcontribute is most important.
It's not who you are, which Ifound that to be true.
It's oh, by the way, I happen tobe transgender.
So what?
I'm also a congressionallyrecognized historian.
(09:17):
I'm also still part of board oftrustees of a pretty prominent
museum in New York.
And so it's those kind of thingsthat have nothing to do with,
oh, by the way, and then youtell your story and then the
story helps others to gee, ifyou succeeded that way, then
maybe I can.
(09:37):
Take some of those bestpractices, some of that case
history that you're giving usand put that together with other
people and create my own pathforward.
So that's how I see it.
Meagan (09:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's actually really acomforting thing to hear in a
way, because a lot of, I knowtherapists at her time, and a
lot of our clients are coming tous in sessions saying, I'm so
upset about what I'm seeinghappen in the world right now.
And I'm just drowning in it.
I don't know what my form ofadvocacy could be because
there's just too many thingsthat I could and I feel like I
(10:11):
should be doing.
And we try to.
Look at it from the lens of wecan't all be doing everything
all the time, and you have topick your form of advocacy and
to hear you, describe you werejust in it, you just lived your
authentic life.
I think it's what people areneeding to hear right now too,
is that they can just go forwardand live their life.
And they don't have tonecessarily be elected into a
(10:33):
position government or be on thestreets protesting every day.
You know that you can do thosethings if that's your form, but
it doesn't have to be thatThere's a lot of ways to be in
the advocacy space when thingsare happening that are
disruptive in, in the world.
Sydney (10:52):
Authenticity.
Just being your authentic selfis an act of resilience.
Angie (10:59):
Yeah, that's true.
That's very true.
And you know I don't postnegative stuff on my, any of
social media because people justget turned right off.
They don't want to hear that,and I don't blame them.
There's enough negativity outthere.
What I try to do is pick thegood stuff, the stuff that's
positive, elevate that, even arunning chronology in my own
(11:21):
life.
I have a 2-year-old grandson andit's a lot of fun when I get to
see him and, all that stuff.
It's celebrating the life youhave and the friends you have.
And the potential friends thatyou might have.
And the good things, there'salways gonna be bad things, so I
tend to shy away from that.
Meagan (11:40):
Yeah, that's such a good message to really lean into
celebrating the good parts oflife rather than letting those
bad parts capsize you.
I can see that optimism in you
Angie (11:49):
it's just the way I am.
And I know there's a lot I couldbe negative about, but I'm not
going to go that route becauseto me, happiness is
self-created.
Happiness is the fountain ofuse.
I just turned 70.
I don't really look 70.
And people don't perceive.
View me as 70.
(12:09):
They, I'm always a how old doyou think I am?
And don't answer the question,it's stuff like that.
I, you just have to, you'vegotta be positive, even if the
environment is negative and, andthat's the way you spread smiles
and happiness,
Meagan (12:26):
yeah.
Thank you for that perspective.
It's so needed to hear thatright now.
And you mentioned, in additionto this, one of your big forms
of advocacy is storytelling andbeing willing to share your
narrative with others as a wayto enhance and uplift them.
So I'm hoping we can maybe gokinda back to the beginning
because you have lived throughso many cultural chapters of
(12:47):
queer history and I'm wonderingif you can talk a little bit
about what shaped your earlysense of self and identity.
Angie (12:53):
Sure.
It go, goes way back with me.
I think it was around the age offour and a half, something like
that.
I came to the re realizationthat I was different because I
didn't like to do the thingsthat little boys did.
I didn't like to get dirty and Ididn't like to play in the mud
(13:15):
and trucks and stuff.
Even though I did it, it wasn'tenjoyable.
But what I used to do, this iscrazy, but growing up in
Brooklyn in a two family house,my grandparents were downstairs
and they didn't go anywhere.
They were retired.
And so my mom would go to thestore and, just tell him, oh,
he's upstairs, whatever.
And then, I would go into mymother's closet.
(13:37):
She was little and so was I.
My mother was five foot, fivefoot whatever, a hundred pounds.
And I would put on her dress orher shoes and look at my, she
had this full length mirror onthe back of the closet door, and
I would wear the stuff and I'mlike, and it made me feel really
good.
And, there's no fetish, there'sno fantasy, there's no hormones,
(14:01):
there's nothing going.
It's just your brain is tellingyou, you feel good in this with
this, exterior.
And that was the beginning ofmany years of feeling that and
understanding more.
'cause in that was, I was for itin 1959.
(14:22):
The word trans didn't evenexist.
We did, but it didn't exist.
I.
And, there were a few examplesof people who did a sex change,
but it was mostly, looked downupon and made fun of.
And, and I also know that if Iever told my father who was a
World War II, army combatveteran that, dad, I think I'm a
(14:42):
girl, he would've we need to getyou a doctor.
So I never did.
I just kept it inside, thinkingI was weird and I went through
so many years of that, but itgets stronger and stronger.
As a teenager, Halloween was myfavorite day because I could be
Dolly Parton iteration of DollyParton.
And it, it sounds weird and itsounds crazy, but the way I look
(15:06):
at this stuff now is that I havea female brain.
I may not have all the bodyparts but the brain is, encased
in your body.
And if you detach your spiritfrom the body, which hopefully
happens when you're dead there'sno body part to connect with.
(15:28):
It's simply, who you think youare.
And I think about that a lottoo.
What defines a female?
Some would say yeah, you need tohave, you need to be able to
bear a child.
What happens after menopause?
Do you stop being a female?
What happens if you're bornsterile?
Are you not a female?
And then what about intersexpeople who have pieces and parts
(15:51):
of both organs who may have XXchromosomes and certain organs
and x, y, and another set oforgans.
What about them?
One in 1600 births was the laststatistic I saw.
That's a lot of people, and sothe notion that we just have
male and female is not reallycorrect.
(16:13):
We have binary, male, female,but we have our brains telling
us who we are.
Forget the body.
Our brains are telling ussomething different.
And mine kept telling me, youare not what you appear to be.
And and I'm not crazy.
I don't have a mental disorderas some would say, I'm simply
me.
(16:33):
And then I use another statisticwhere there's 8 billion people
on this planet and no two peopleare the same.
There'll never be another you.
There was never another you.
That's an, an incredible miraclewhen you think about it.
And so who's to say that I'm notwho I think I am.
(16:54):
It's like you are your ownperson, and I'm my own person.
I see it in some children too.
People say, oh, you'reindoctrinating kids.
Baloney.
The kids know who they are.
I knew who I was.
I just couldn't express it,'cause there were no books to
take out of a library.
There was no internet.
There were no role models.
There was nothing.
So I just thought it was weird,what do you do?
(17:15):
So as you go through life, thisis, this was the challenge that
I had.
And I did the things that,typically you would do.
I went to college, I did getmarried, couldn't have children,
had biological children adoptedtwo children who are now adults
and are, dearest kids of mine.
And so life cha, takes youthrough its own pathway.
(17:41):
You do the best you can witheach pathway.
And that leads you to anotherchapter and another chapter.
So I'm in this, later chapter,but you look back on it all and
you say, yeah I would I havechanged anything?
No, because I wouldn't be who Iwas today if I had to change
something.
'cause you change one dial,something else happens.
(18:02):
There's a realization of who youare as a person.
And I, it's difficult for peoplewho don't live this to wrap
their heads around it.
'cause they kept, I keep readingabout mental disorders and all
that stuff.
No, it's not.
It is who my brain and 2 millionother brains out there saying
(18:24):
who you are.
And so that, that's my messageto go through all the stages in
life, but be who you are.
That is the message.
Don't fight it.
Be who you are because, and theother thing is so important that
if you, which I did for manyyears, repress who I was and
(18:47):
worrying about who's gonna findout that I'm really this or that
you're not living to your fullpotential'cause you're spending
too much time worrying aboutother people.
Forget the other people.
Just be yourself and it makes,it will make such a difference
in your life.
The rock was lifted when Ifinally said, I'm done.
(19:07):
I'm going to be me.
And then, you make whateveradjustments you want.
Some people don't.
I did.
But they're minor, minor in thesense of, you can't change a
body.
You can change some aspects ofbiology, but your brain stays
your spirit.
Your soul is who you are.
And that doesn't change.
You can't fix that.
You can't change it, you can'tmodify it.
(19:30):
You can learn, but you'll alwaysbe who you are.
Meagan (19:34):
This shared so many powerful things there.
And I think one thing I wannahighlight and echo here is this,
we see a lot of debate in a lotof argument about gender and
gender identity versus sexualityand looking at the biology of it
versus the, societal, languageof the gender spectrum.
But I think you're taking thisto a higher level by really
(19:54):
separating it from the bodyentirely, because there's a lot
of arguments, scientificallythat there is not just the
gender binary, but the way thatyou're speaking of this as at a
soul level of, you live with youall of the time, your soul
potentially transcends, evenafter, our physical body has
gone.
And it's that deep level ofawareness that you're speaking
(20:16):
to here in terms of gender andreally knowing yourself.
Angie (20:19):
it's really a powerful thing.
And it only comes after youthink about it a lot.
I also teach groups and,companies who are trying to be
more accepting of differentpeople.
And I think one of the things isthat whole lgbtqia a plus.
Acronym, they call it theletters to, those who wanna like
(20:40):
degrade stuff.
Like how many more letters yougot?
The reality is, we have 8billion people worth of letters.
The key here is that when youbreak that acronym down, it
really comes down to two things.
It's who we are and who we love.
That's it.
It's so elementary.
The who we are.
(21:01):
Okay.
Then the who we love.
It's so easy.
That's so powerful.
It's so easy.
And yeah.
And yes it, there's a hugepyramid of that, and all kinds
of buckets, which I hate.
It's a continuum.
I don't care what anybody says.
It is a total continuum ofeverything.
(21:23):
But that's humanity.
Meagan (21:25):
I think a lot of people who maybe don't have anyone in
the L-G-B-T-Q community in theirlives that they know personally,
they don't have the opportunityto really talk with and interact
with anyone in that community.
So they, get lost in the lettersoup as you.
Called it, and it's just veryforeign.
And foreign is sometimes scary.
I'm curious in your own identitytoo, in the development over
(21:48):
your childhood.
You mentioned growing up, notreally having even the language
to internally process this, letalone the ability to talk about
it with others.
As more language was developedaround this, even the words
transgender how did that helpempower you or, I guess push
forward your identity?
Angie (22:10):
the word, if you go back to history, the word transgender
didn't really appear until thelate 1960s and I was already,
older at the time.
It was expressed at the time asthe drag queens.
Even the word drag queen is awhole continuum of people.
There are men who just enjoytheatrics.
(22:30):
There are gay people who enjoy,theatrics, which are mostly men,
but some women like the termgay.
And so you had this wholespectrum of women performing and
that was actually one of thethings that started that was
Theit mission point forStonewall the uprising.
(22:50):
Because in New York City at thetime, and I think it was New
York State as well, if you woremore than three articles of
clothing of the opposite sexfrom your id, you could be
arrested.
And a lot of people were, andthat's why Stonewall happened.
(23:11):
Because they kept arresting thedrag queens.
up until 1966, if you were anopenly gay person and the
bartender in a bar knew you theylegally could not serve you a
drink.
That was the law.
So you sit there with all theserepressive things going on, and
the idea that the police at thetime would actually try to draw
(23:36):
out some, a gay person to arrestthem in a bar, in know it was a
horrible time.
A lot of violence, so again, youhave to live through the period
to see it, to understand it.
And then, I literally, I hungout on Christopher Street.
I loved Christopher Street atthe time.
It was so cool.
And it was June, it was summerthat the school was out.
(23:59):
And I used to hang around with afew friends, and we literally,
it was late, really late atnight, and we were just walking
along and we stumbled on it.
You didn't get an invitation toa riot, these are the things
that, I go back to becausethey're so important.
So the whole notion of genderand all of that it's a sense of
self.
I knew I was not a little boy.
(24:21):
I didn't understand why, whichis why I was expressing who I
was putting on my mom's clothes.
And, it wasn't a fetish, youcan't have a fetish at 5 0 6.
You just do because it makes youfeel good.
So as you move through it inlife that thing gets stronger
and stronger.
And then, to the point where I.
(24:43):
I, again, a long litany of, whenI would travel for business, I
had two suitcases, one littleone.
The dude and a giant one,because God forbid, we didn't
know what we're gonna wear.
We don't know where our mood is,and shoes and dress and, way it
works.
It was hysterical.
And I used to say to people, ohyeah I'm I'm heading out to the
West Coast because I'm gonnadonate my clothing to some
(25:06):
organization.
No, it was both for me.
You do all you have to do, butI, I just, I just encourage
people to, just be who you are.
Don't hide it.
Don't, because the more you hideit the less productive you are
and the unh that you are.
(25:27):
And the minute you tell peopleyou, you come out to people, if
that's the right word.
I gave a speech, the first oneactually.
They had asked me to tell mystory.
It was to the four A, theAmerican Association of
Advertising Agencies.
They had a yearly luncheon fortheir multicultural program.
It was like 600 people in theirroom, it was a in person live
(25:49):
thing.
I think it was 2014 or 15.
And they contacted me and theysaid, could you tell your story?
You're gonna be ourinspirational speaker.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
Like, why am I inspirational?
Your story's really amazing.
It is.
I'm, I was like taken aback,like I didn't think that.
(26:09):
At the end, my message was, it'snever too late to be the real
you.
And I was, I said, I just turned60 at the time and I'm still in
the advertising business, whichis really a young people's
business.
And and another, a month later,this young guy appearing person
came to me and he's, you werethe speaker, weren't you?
I said, yeah.
(26:30):
He said, you, you inspired me tocome out to my friends and
family, because you said it'snever too late.
And yeah, 20 something year old.
And so I said, so what, how wastheir reaction?
They all said they already knew.
(26:51):
That he was gay.
I'm like, okay.
So what that means to me isthat, the message resonates.
It, it inspires people to justbe themselves.
And, this was a long time agoand I gotta believe that person
is a happy, happier today thanever before.
And a number of others, samekind of thing, happened at
(27:11):
different stages in my life.
So yeah, be out there, tell yourstory, do the right thing.
If you don't wanna listen to it,don't listen.
Sydney (27:20):
Have you always had this confident sense of your
authentic self?
And was that challenging foryou?
What was that process like ofgaining that knowledge and
understanding and love foryourself it sounds so that you
were able to spread thatmessage.
Angie (27:35):
you hit the key word there.
Confidence.
It takes a lot to get theconfidence.
We don't, it's not an instantconfident.
'cause I remember just the firsttime stepping out of a hotel
room in San Francisco when Imade the decision, I'm gonna
live me, I'm going to be me.
(27:56):
I was scared to death.
I was gonna walk a few blocks,with a cute dress and heels to a
bar that I knew was friendly topeople like me.
And I literally, theneighborhood was, eh, it's the
Tenderloin in San Francisco.
If San Francisco.
It's a little diceyneighborhood, but cool.
(28:18):
It just, it was a transgenderepicenter, if you will.
And I used to stay there when Iwas seeing my client, and they
always used to say, why are youstaying at this cheap flea bagg
hotel?
We put you up in a nice place.
No, I wanna be here.
I wanna be with my people.
Anyway, the confidence it takesto walk outta that hotel room
for the first bunch of times, Iliterally, I had an old flip
(28:39):
phone, so I was pretending totalk to somebody as I'm walking,
so I wouldn't have to hear.
The, Hey baby, how this, the da.
And I know I didn't look thatgood in the beginning, but the
idea of confidence is criticaland the only way you do it is to
actually do it.
Walk the walk, get out there, doit.
And over time, I wascomfortable.
(29:01):
It's okay, I can do this.
It's working for me.
And then you build up theconfidence to start telling
people, and you get rejected bysome.
Yeah, I remember telling areally good friend and the
person said, I can't have afriend like you.
And I'm like, what do you meanI'm the same person?
(29:23):
No.
What would they say to me?
I'm like, who cares about you?
It's about me.
It was, no, I can't have afriend like you.
And that was it.
Okay, fine.
I tried a few times, give up.
At the end of the day, you'regonna lose some, but you gain a
lot more.
And that was another piece ofconfidence.
'cause I was confident enough tosay, all right, this is who I
(29:45):
am.
If you don't like me, bye.
If you do like me, we can befriends or acquaintances or
just, business, whatever.
So I look at those kind ofthings and say, you need to
develop confidence.
It takes a while.
It really does take time.
However.
Once you get there, there's noturning back because you've
(30:07):
already gotten past it.
You're unstoppable.
That's it.
And yeah, no journey is evercomplete without somebody
assaulting you, at least in thetrans universe.
At one point some guy hit meover the head with a beer
bottle, didn't like the way Ilooked, and I wound up in the ER
overnight, which was not goodwith staples in my head, because
(30:29):
they didn't like me.
Didn't like, whatever, so it'sgonna happen.
I was hoping it didn't, but italso woke me up that I'm not
immortal.
However lots of friends rushedto my side.
And that was a good thing.
So you never, without people whoare supporters, and, I also say
to people if you can do onething, if you're not part of
(30:50):
this community and it's fine,just be an ally, but be an
active ally, not just support.
Oh yeah, I support you.
And then you'll do anything.
Be a person who will literallystand up and say, Hey, don't do
that.
Hey, I support you and here'swhat I'm doing to support you.
It makes a big difference,especially I.
(31:10):
To all the members of, all theletters of the L-G-B-T-Q
community.
'cause it's a, it is a communityand it's under siege and we know
that as it's always been it willget worse before it gets better.
But we'll get there, as Imentioned with Generation Z,
they're gonna, they're gonnabring us forward, confidence.
(31:31):
You hit it right on the head.
Confidence.
Sydney (31:35):
Do you perhaps remember a turning point where you
decided, or you found thatconfidence within yourself?
Angie (31:43):
Yeah, actually I did.
And it has to do with stories.
I had a client in San Franciscothat I used to go to quite
frequently, and they were veryfamily oriented companies, so
nobody really wanted to go outto dinner or whatever, which was
fine.
And so I searched every city Itraveled to.
Where's the trends bar?
Where's the place where I canhear stories, not pick people
(32:06):
up?
I had no interest in that, butit's I wanna hear your story.
And I found this bar, it's nolonger there, but it was called
Divas in San Francisco.
I still have probably 200friends from there.
And we're talking many yearsago, and I would just talk to
the girls.
I'm like, tell me your story.
What's your frame?
Why do you feel this way?
(32:26):
And yes, I came to therealization one night in a hotel
room there that, all thesestories that I've been listening
to, they're my story.
It's just a different framework.
It's my same story.
You know about internal, likeyour spirit, your soul,
everything's driving youforward.
You don't do this because you'resome kind of nutcase.
(32:48):
You do it because you're drivento do it.
'cause your brain is telling youwhat to do.
And that was the turning point.
One night in the hotel I was upat four in the morning.
I broke into a deep sweat, sweatand I went into the bathroom and
I looked at myself and I said,their story, my story, it's the
story.
So now you're a strategicplanner, what are you gonna do
(33:10):
about it?
So I did what any strategicplanner would do.
I did a timeline and I said,okay, what do I need to do
first?
First of all, get rid of themustache.
'cause that really doesn't lookvery feminine, and so then it's
okay, most women have, not all,one of the signs of it my, in my
(33:31):
head.
Coming from that Dolly PartonHalloween thing I always did was
the idea that deflecting from aface to a body, right?
Because the first thing is thebody.
You don't know who they are.
And particularly men will lookat, like that first, right?
(33:52):
And so they're not looking atyour face, they're not even
listening to your voice, but,okay check box, right?
Okay.
And again, you do what you feelis right.
Some people don't wanna doanything, and that's fine.
So I did, the check checkbox.
Then I'm like, my voice was toodeep.
It still is a little on thedeeper side, but I'm old, so
there was a college nearby mercyNow University they have a
(34:16):
speech and hearing department,and they offered a course for
trans people to understand voiceand how to modify it.
Can't totally change it, but youcan modify it.
And of course, I made friendswith all the professors.
A lot of them are still there.
And e every once in a while Isubstitute for their classes
too, which is sweet.
(34:36):
But the idea was, okay, what canI do with this voice to project
a, image, more aligned with whoI am.
And so I spent two yearspart-time like going to
different classes andunderstanding the how.
You can change, you can modify,and they have very sensitive
equipment.
(34:56):
So the first day I was therethey did this analysis of your
voice, and then two years laterfinally, I said, okay, I think
we're done as much as I can do.
And the numbers were absolutelyincredible.
Totally changed.
I went from I don't know Bronsonand Death wish to, to this
softer, but now ancient voice.
(35:17):
So it you can do certain thingsto get more confidence, in, in
whichever way you need to go.
But those are the things youseek out.
It's okay, how can I check thisbox off?
You do this timeline thing andit finally got to the point okay
I'm telling everybody, I, in mypersonal life now it's the
business life.
Now I have to do that part.
And I was very concerned becausemy biggest client was in North
(35:41):
Carolina.
At the time, the home of thebathroom bills, not that
everyone else doesn't have onenow, but the idea that I didn't
know how they would react.
It turns out the reaction wasamazingly great.
They even threw me a party,which was sweet.
And the people in the airportthat I was there every week,
(36:02):
they're like, Hey, you'relooking good.
So the idea that you thinkyou're gonna have a problem in
many cases you don't.
The last piece is the, I waitedso long to tell my mother,'cause
my mother, I just, I didn'twanna, I didn't know how she'd
react.
So I told her when she was 90and I was 60.
(36:25):
And, it was one of thosesituations where we were at a
wedding.
My nephew's wedding.
And I didn't have everyone knewexcept she and I didn't have any
email clothes left.
'cause I only kept one suit forgiggles, in the closet, which of
course didn't fit.
And I said, I gotta do, I, so Itook three, little black dresses
(36:46):
and I, heels and whatever.
And I said, I gotta tell herbecause I can't not do this.
I have to do it so I went intoher room and we were gonna have
lunch.
And I said, so how do I look ma?
And she said, you look great,but you gotta cut your hair
'cause you look like a girl.
And I'm like, ah, hold thatthought.
(37:07):
So then I went through thisexplanation and she goes, she's
like listening.
And she goes, okay.
I'm like, what do you mean okay?
I thought you'd have a heartattack.
She goes no.
Don't you understand.
Are you happy?
I'm like, yeah.
So she's you have to understandthe goal of a parent is to make
sure their child is happy.
(37:29):
Don't matter how old you are.
So you're happy.
I'm happy now.
I'm hungry.
Let's go to lunch.
And that was the wholeconversation.
Except the one thing she broughtup at lunch.
She goes, I named you a malename.
And she goes, that doesn't workfor me.
What do you want me to call you?
Hence I said, Angelique becauseof angels.
(37:50):
And I believe in'em.
And I put them to a lot of workwith the years, the lesson
learned from that was the peopleyou fear the most sometimes turn
out to be your greatest alliesbecause you just, you are,
you're predetermining what youthink they're gonna react, but
they don't react that way.
(38:12):
And then sometimes your bestfriends turn out to be, not, so
life is a strange thing.
Meagan (38:19):
I have worked with a handful of clients who are in
their, gender identity kind ofexploration.
Some of them are younger andthey're able to pinpoint, as you
said, you wrote out a timelineof, okay, I'm feeling this
confidence, I'm feeling thisneed to take action and really
become my authentic self fully.
And I see the 0.1, two, threeall the way through and they've
(38:42):
been able to plan this all out,but are unable to even take the
first step because they'reparalyzed by this fear that I.
They're gonna be attackedbecause they see so much
violence on the news and onsocial media.
And that is a reality.
And I'm wondering you're sayinghere that sometimes, the people
that you're most afraid of areactually gonna have a really
wonderful, supportive responseand sometimes not.
(39:04):
But, I'm curious if you haveanything to add to those people
that are just paralyzed in thatspace of fear and unable to take
that first step.
Angie (39:13):
baby steps.
Baby steps.
You don't die the water when,it's just unfroze, this
literally took me years to fig,to slowly move forward.
It took me two years to find aplastic surgeon to do these just
because I wanted the rightperson.
And I wanted to make sure,because plastic surgery is an
(39:33):
art.
And you're, you have to be init.
And I found the most incredibleplastic surgeon, and I did him
three times.
Big, bigger, biggest, and heretired.
I dunno if it had to do with me,but but again, it's increments.
With me, I had nobody to follow.
I didn't know what I was doing,but I knew if I, these were the
(39:56):
steps I wanted to do, slowly.
If you take the little babysteps to the point you are
ready, and then don't do it in abig, splashy way, just
increments, find a safe spacelike I did in San Francisco.
No one knew me.
So I wasn't worried about that.
And you're in a neighborhoodwhere so eclectic, it didn't
(40:18):
matter, and so those are thekind of things that you can try
to make the space as safe aspossible.
And then if you have a problem,you run into a store and you
call for assistance, you call,police or whatever.
I have to say, even when I wasassaulted that night the bar
owner knew me and so did thebouncers in a good way.
(40:41):
And they did get, the guyultimately nothing really much
happened.
But the point was the twopolicemen didn't know me and
they asked me, how are you okay?
Blah, blah, blah, the usualstuff, and we're gonna call an
ambulance.
Which hospital?
Yeah.
Okay, fine.
And can we just see your ID sowe can make a record of it?
And then they saw my ID, and thefirst thing they said was how
(41:02):
may we address you?
Because CID certainly didn'tmatch this, and I didn't look
anywhere near where I look todayand talk about respect.
And so yeah, Yonkers PoliceDepartment was ahead of their
time and they still are.
But still, the point is that,you just do baby steps and then
(41:25):
confidence takes time.
It really does.
And you'll make a few mistakestoo.
Pull back, try something else,look at everyone else's stories.
And there's lots of them outthere.
If my story doesn't work foryou, there's probably a hundred,
200, a thousand more.
That could be, and it doesn'thave to be for this, it could be
(41:47):
people who've overcome ahandicap, people who have gone,
done something that they havesucceeded in.
And maybe it's, it's notnecessarily gender, things you
can do to change things.
It is a process.
And the process isn't always thesame, but the end goal is the
same.
(42:08):
Be yourself.
And you'll be.
You'll be much happier.
That's the whole point.
And I'm happy, which is reasonwhy I don't think I look my age.
Then share your story becausesomeone else may be looking to
figure out where to go, how togo next.
As you say, your clients are,not sure they're uncomfortable,
they're scared.
That first big plunge, don'ttake a plunge.
(42:30):
Take a little splash.
And itty bitty on, itty bitty.
And you get there.
Meagan (42:37):
Yeah.
That's such good advice.
'cause even small action stepstowards this ultimate goal.
It's taking action for yourselfon a consistent basis.
It's not keeping everythingstuck and stagnant.
Angie (42:48):
Yeah.
The idea that you're movingforward, you're learning as you
go.
And you need to test and learn.
Try something doesn't work.
Try something else.
And eventually you're stillmoving forward.
Maybe a step backward here andthere, but you're still moving
forward.
And so that's my advice.
Slow, steady, slow, take abreak, breathe.
(43:12):
If you're uncomfortable.
I've seen some peopledetransition, which I can't even
imagine that, but because offear.
And fear, it's like either I'mgonna get killed or I better
just revert back to what I was,but I'll be totally unhappy and
miserable.
That's not the way to do it.
Move, go somewhere else.
(43:34):
Change your environment.
Change wherever you live, howyou live.
And I'll always say too, likethe workplace can be a
lifesaver.
The companies who are acceptingof talented employees who might
be different may offer the onesafe space that a person might
(43:56):
have.
So if your company's notsupporting, find another one.
There's always something you cando.
As opposed to, yes, I have hadsome friends take their lives
because the world hated them,they could not deal with it.
And they were not like me, whereI would give'em the finger.
(44:17):
People are fragile, some people,and I understand.
Because sometimes you can'tclimb out of that box and you
don't see a recourse.
And, that's one another reasonwhy I like to tell my own story.
It's like there's always a wayto move forward.
Just don't fall into that trapthat you're worthless.
'cause every human is incrediblyuseful in this world and has a
(44:38):
purpose.
Meagan (44:39):
Absolutely.
The world is so much better offthe more people that are living
their authentic lives inwhatever way they can.
Angie (44:46):
I think about humanity as one giant puzzle with billions,
a billion, 8 billion littlepuzzle pieces.
So the minute one drops out,there's a hole.
And that hole can't be reallyreplaced.
Especially if it's dropping outfor cause as opposed to
naturally, every life isimportant, and every life is
(45:08):
valuable and you're here for areason.
Meagan (45:12):
I find it really interesting that you point at
work as being a lifelinepotentially as well.
I think a unique part of yourstory is that you transition in
this high level leadershipposition within a company.
And it sounds like by and large,you had a lot of support within
your company and, positiveinteractions throughout that
process.
But I'm curious if you can talka little bit more about that and
(45:34):
if there were any, challenges orstumbling blocks you had to
navigate and how you did that tofind that job that felt like a
safe place.
Angie (45:41):
Here's the thing.
The company had differentbusiness resource groups one
focused on L-G-B-T-Q Women'sGroup Asian group, et cetera.
Again I was looking to see how Icould move forward.
And at one point the LGBT Qgroup had a void.
There was no leader.
(46:02):
Both of'em had left and went toother companies.
So it, there was zero.
And I had been friends with thesenior diversity and inclusion
vice president for a while, andI called, or I emailed, I
forget, and I said, I'd like toconsider, I'd like to be
(46:22):
considered to take over thegroup.
And she wrote back to me.
She goes.
What, wait, what?
So she took me to lunch and Iwas talking about it, talked
about who I was, and I said,you, you see this shirt that's
got a couple of lumps in it.
And so I took over and I wrotethat position to, four or five
(46:46):
years.
And we did a lot of great stuff.
I even did the first trans panelthey ever did with friends young
and older and I didn't realizemy two younger friends had never
told their stories and they werein tears, people in the
audience.
It was a live audience of, Idon't know, 60, 70 people, maybe
(47:06):
more.
And there was not a dry eyeanywhere.
And yes, I had stumbling blockstoo.
Not many, but not enough to stopme because once they took over
that group, I was at corporate.
This is not just one company.
(47:26):
This is a corporate thing.
And then I finally like, okay,now I have the backing of the
corporation, and that empoweredme to move forward.
You look for these littlediamonds and what can I grab
onto to make this work?
And that helped me in the wholetransitional thing too.
(47:46):
Even my own company, I wassenior, I had a fairly big group
of people that were focused ondifferent accounts and I was the
account management lead and weused to have these Monday
morning status meetings, sothere'd be like, 25 people in
the room and we're going throughit.
And then I said I wanna tell yousomething about me again.
I'm gonna be doing this, andblah, blah, blah.
And I got a round of applause,which was sweet.
(48:08):
And then I said if anyone has anissue, talk to your manager,
which was me.
And so little fun things.
But a couple weeks later, mycreative partner came into me
and probably had the greatestwisdom I've ever encountered.
And he said to me, you've beendealing with this transition
thought for years, for decades,but it's all new to us.
(48:32):
And, the team is just, they justdon't quite understand.
They don't know they're tryingto figure it out.
So understand that we'retransitioning with you.
Which was a powerful thoughtbecause most people, they only
think of themselves, which I waslike, I'm transitioning, so
what?
So is everyone around me?
(48:52):
And once you come to thatrealization, it's wow, yes, of
course.
Breathe.
Give them breathing room.
If they have questions, ask thequestions.
And so those are the things thatare really, insightful sometimes
but yeah, it was not an easything.
And some of the times when Igive my talks to different
companies, usually they call onthe supplier that, that uses me.
(49:17):
And usually what it is they havesomeone transitioning and
they've never experienced it orthey want to make sure it's done
properly.
So they'll get me to talk aboutthe subject.
That then creates theenvironment to make it easier
for that person.
And I usually wind up later onbeing contacted by the person.
'Cause it helped, you go throughthat litany and then it really
(49:40):
does change the perspectivemoving forward.
Home life may be toxic, anythingoutside the office might be
toxic.
But when you're in the office,if you're respected and your
coworkers, respect and embraceyou, it's great.
You don't have to think about ittoo much.
And hiding isn't a good optionbecause you're thinking about
that all the time.
Once it's done, it's like therock is off your back,
Meagan (50:03):
yeah.
It's freeing.
Thank you for sharing that.
That's so powerful to hear yourexperience and also the ways
that you've now given back andhelped other companies to do
better in this space.
Because, it's hard enough forwomen to climb the corporate
ladder and be in thesepositions, let alone trans women
going through this experiencewho need that much more
understanding and support.
I'm really inspired by how muchyou've persevered through the
(50:26):
stumbling blocks as well as.
Being able to use yourconfidence and the backing that
you have been able to amass tosupport others in this
community.
Sydney (50:34):
I was curious just based on what you said what do you
think some of the biggestmisconceptions are about the
Transfeminine experiencespecifically?
Angie (50:45):
I'll talk trans in general because see I tend to be
like I'm a woman, period.
The brain tells me who I am.
Forget about what the body saysthe brain tells me.
I don't need an adjective.
I don't need a modifier.
I'm just a woman who is outthere trying to be myself.
The misconceptions are lots ofstuff like.
(51:07):
Oh, it's just an act.
Oh, it's just a phase.
Oh, they're grooming people andall that crap.
Listen, I don't groom nobody.
What I really would encouragesome of these political folks
who seem to have that thing, whoprobably never met one of us,
talk to us.
(51:27):
Because you're gonna learnsomething that may change your
life.
And I've noticed that sometimessomeone in their family comes
out and all of a sudden there'san understanding.
But in lieu of that, talk to oneof us.
We're out there.
I have no problem talking tosomebody, and trying to convey
(51:49):
what it's like, and how youfeel.
There are people who are membersof the clergy who, keep saying
It's only male, only femalemarriage is this marriage
between men and women.
Great.
But there can be love, love isthe common denominator of all
religions and all traditions.
If there's no love, it's not anyof those.
(52:11):
It's not a religion.
It's simply not.
Overarching all is just love,love yourself, love everyone
around you.
If you can't love them, thenaccept them.
Simple.
It's really simple stuff justtalk to the people.
These people who like, oh,you're mentally ill and you're
(52:31):
this and that.
No, we're not mentally ill.
We know who we are, probablymore than you do.
And just because, if you wannadeflect on the issues of the
time to, throw a marginalizedgroup under the bus, whether
it's trans people or whoeverelse, or immigrants gimme a
break that's deflecting from,reality and deflecting from some
(52:52):
other bad thing that you'retrying to do, so yeah, talk,
we'll talk.
I believe me, I have no problemtalking to anybody.
I have nothing to lose by doingit because if I can even put a
little shred of understanding orat least acceptance, it can make
(53:13):
a big difference.
I'm not gonna change the worldbut we can change one person at
a time,
Meagan (53:19):
Thank you for your work and for all that you've shared
with us today.
Anything that you haven'talready shared with us that you
wanna speak to.
I wanna give an opportunity forthat and hopefully you can leave
us with some advice astherapists, as allies what can
we do to help and to put moregood out into the world and to
support this community?
Angie (53:38):
I think pearls of wisdom, at the end of the day, don't
listen to the naysayers.
Don't take it all to heart.
I read so much of the crap thatI, that, mental illness and all
that garbage no, it's not justbecause you can't understand it,
which I understand, it'sdifficult to understand, but you
can accept that people aredifferent, so there's a
(54:01):
difference between understandingand acceptance.
And I do think that, too manypeople are just hung up on, this
whole notion of biology and thisand that and, it's the same old
story over and over again, butdon't be disappointed there's
always gonna be people in theworld who are gonna, feel that
(54:23):
somehow putting you down, buildsthem up, which is ridiculous.
And then look at history.
Everyone has a differentadvocacy.
Mine is just being out there anddoing good.
I don't do the sign holding andflagwaving and all that stuff,
although I do like to walk inthe pride parade.
It's never too late to be thereal you as long as you're
(54:43):
living and breathing.
I've seen enough people in myfamily and other friends on the
deathbed and dying and die infront of me.
And I didn't wanna be thatperson, never having lived who I
was, so sometimes that helps inthe thought process.
What if you got hit by a bustomorrow?
A lot of what ifs, but if younever have lived, that would be
(55:06):
a greater tragedy then not.
At least trying, so life isfragile.
Life is is short.
And the older we get, now thatI've hit the seven dead digit, I
realize that, and so it's evenmore important that we just
(55:29):
focus sometimes because whenwe're happy we can make other
people happy.
It's hard not to.
And then the last thing is, thegreatest gift you can give, I
love this expression, is yourtime because you'll never get it
back.
Lots of cliche type things, butit's the truth, and that's why
(55:51):
I.
Do things like this.
'cause I feel that it'simportant, that giving time to
use my words or, thoughts or Iwon't call it advice, I'll just
call it, best practice for me.
I think, can be beneficial topeople.
Again, listen to their stories,connect them with other stories,
(56:15):
connect them with resources.
I had none when I was four.
There was nothing.
Zero, no books, no mentors, noout people, no nothing.
But the world's changed andthat's why I think lots of Gen Z
and, gen X is understanding orare understanding more about
(56:36):
themselves because there'sinformation, it's all over the
place.
Some accurate, some not, you candistill what is clearly not, so
Meagan (56:44):
I think your story I'm sure you've seen it already, has
changed a lot of lives and Ithink it'll continue to.
I actually love what you saidabout time,'cause we can't get
it back.
So it is one of the greatestgifts and it's part of why I
named the practice her timetherapy because I recognize how
valuable especially women's timereally is with so much of the
world trying to steal it awayand take it for other things.
(57:05):
So I wanna thank you again forspending this time with us and
It was an absolute honorspeaking with you today and
getting to know you more.
Angie (57:13):
Likewise.
Thank you very much.
Sydney (57:15):
Thank you.
If you're feeling empowered bytoday's episode, be sure to
subscribe and leave us a review.
You can also follow us on socialmedia at her time to talk for
more updates and tips.
And if you'd like to support theshow, consider becoming a
patron.
If you're ready to take the nextstep in your mental health
journey, visit her timetherapy.com and schedule a free
(57:37):
consultation with one of ourtherapists.
Thank you for taking the time totalk today.
Remember, your story matters.
Your voice is powerful, and yourmental health is worth
prioritizing.
Until next time, take care ofyourself.
This is your time.
The information shared on thispodcast is not intended to be
personal mental health advice,and listening to this podcast
(58:00):
does not create a therapeuticrelationship between the
listener and the therapistfeatured on this podcast.
We encourage listeners to engagewith a licensed therapist for
personalized mental healthtreatment and advice.
Today I am here with Sydney, who is the producer for
the Her Time to Talk podcast anda very special guest that I'm
honored and excited to speakwith.
Today's guest has a long andpowerful rap sheet of accolades,
accomplishments, and leadershiproles spanning over five decades
in both the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A plusadvocacy space and corporate DI
(00:50):
world.
Is a trans elder and educatorand a nationally recognized
speaker whose work has left alasting mark across industries
and communities.
A New York native.
Angie retired as seniordiversity and inclusion program
specialist from InterpublicGroup, a global communications
(01:11):
company with over 90 agenciesand nearly 60,000 employees.
She holds the distinction ofbeing the most senior employee
in IPGs history to transition tofemale, and she did so while
serving as the executive VPacross multiple global firms in
the advertising world.
Beyond corporate leadership,Angie served on the LGBTQIA plus
(01:33):
Advisory Board to the mayor ofYonkers, new York's third
largest city, where she played akey role in securing a perfect
equality score from the humanrights campaign year after year.
She was a World Pride ambassadorfor New York State, a recipient
of the Michael Sabino LegacyAward, and was recently honored
in a citywide proclamationdeclaring Angeline Polinsky day
(01:56):
during pride in 2024.
She's also a communityhistorian, an ordained Episcopal
church leader, a documentarynarrator and a public educator
whose work spans from city hallsto museum galleries.
And most remarkably, she stoodat the Stonewall Uprising in
1969, witnessing firsthand amoment that would ignite a
(02:18):
global movement.
We are beyond honored andwelcome Angelique to the show
during what we know is anincredibly busy and emotionally
charged pride month.
Her voice carries the weight ofhistory and the clarity of lived
truth, and we're so gratefulthat she's here to talk with us
today.
(02:40):
Her voice carries the weight ofhistory and the clarity of lived
truth, and we're so gratefulshe's here with us today.
So Angie, thank you so much forbeing here.
How are you feeling coming intotoday's conversation?
Angie (02:53):
Oh, I'm feeling great.
This is something I enjoy doing.
And I think it's important for alot of people to hear, and those
who don't wanna hear it, don'tlisten.
Simple as that.
Meagan (03:04):
Simple as that.
We couldn't agree more.
So we are very intentionallyrecording this during Pride
month of 2025, and we're reallycurious to hear from you, what
does Pride Month mean to you nowat this stage in your life and
your advocacy, especially giveneverything that's happening
today, politically andculturally?
Angie (03:23):
that's a really interesting question because I
look back on the origins ofPride and originally back in the
year after Stonewall, they did amarch in New York City and they
were trying to figure out whatto name it, how to, how do you
wrap this?
So it was a celebration of this,but on the other hand.
(03:47):
One of the people said maybeit's it's gay power.
The word power was big in theseventies, as, black power, gay
power, flower power.
We had all that stuff.
But, one of the organizers said,we don't have any power.
But we have pride in who we areas people.
And e everyone, no matter whothey are, can have pride in
(04:08):
something.
It's not something that it'ssomething you've accomplished.
And it doesn't have to be this,it could be something else.
So I'm always feeling good thatwe still continue to acknowledge
and celebrate pride, if youwill.
And it's, changing all the time.
(04:30):
We're in a difficult periodright now where, not that we
weren't in the sixties becausethey were violent and difficult
and, so we've come full circle.
Not quite as bad as it was backthen, but we are there and we're
getting there.
And of course, to me this issimply a distraction from all
the other stuff that Washingtonseems to want to do.
(04:53):
I frame it that way.
There's 2 million of us transpeople out there.
Based latest, polling Gallupjust did a poll that talked
about 9.3% of the US populationis LGBTQ plus.
That is a lot of people figuring330 million people roughly in
(05:14):
this country.
That's a lot of people.
It would be the second largeststate if we were all living
together.
So that's a lot.
And the other piece that'sreally good comforting to me as.
As I see history evolving is inthat same study, they looked at
different age cohorts, and mygeneration, the baby boomers,
(05:36):
the numbers were like 2.2%,2.3%.
'cause a lot of us,unfortunately, aren't with us
anymore.
And some were having moredifficulty.
But Generation Z, those who arejust in that beginning adulthood
stage 23 point something percentidentified as L-G-B-T-Q, what
(05:59):
that tells me is the future isgoing to be really good.
Because all these old peoplewho, and I'm not including
myself in that yet, who prepredisposed to throw us all
under the bus because you'reweird, you're crazy or whatever,
your mental illness, blah, blah.
They'll all be gone and theyoungest generation will be
(06:20):
taking over.
So anybody who is in any kind ofleadership position should
recognize that, this is atemporary thing in my opinion.
It's not as bad as it was in thesixties.
It could get there, but so farit's not there yet.
So I tend to be a little moreoptimistic than most.
Meagan (06:39):
I think that's what we need right now, certainly is a
voice of optimism and someperspective and the history of
it all.
And I think that data that youshared here of, if we put all
this.
Population together, we'd be thesecond largest state.
I think that's a verysignificant point of data to put
imagery together that reallyshows, we're not going anywhere.
(07:01):
This is not a community that canbe squashed.
This is a community that hasalways been here and will always
be here, and we're in a certainiteration of the fight, so to
speak.
But yeah that's a very powerfulimagery you gave us.
Angie (07:14):
I honestly do think that, again, I'm basically because of
the industry that was a part ofdata was important.
I always looked at data and whenI see a positive trend, it's
telling me the future's gonna begood.
I won't be around.
But for those in generation Zwho will become my age, the
(07:35):
world will be very different anddifferent in a hopefully good
way.
Meagan (07:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
What would you say from yourperspective, are some of the
things that need to happen tocontinue to create that positive
future that the data isforecasting here?
Angie (07:52):
Stories telling our stories, being out there, being
visible but not visible.
I was never one of those let mehold up the banners and all that
stuff.
I was just out there doingsomething good for the greater
community, not necessarily theLGBTQ plus community, but just
being a part of the community.
(08:13):
And I was on many differentboards not having to do with
L-G-B-T-Q.
I was on the LandmarksPreservation board for the City
of Yonkers for 10 years.
We made a lot of progress.
Landmarking properties spreadingthe love of history.
I actually have a Facebook groupdedicated to local history.
(08:34):
I have 15,000 people in thegroup.
I'm the only admin.
So the idea is even some of theboards I was on when I was in
that process of doing thistransition, my board members, I
was president of one of them andI said to the vice president I
said I'm gonna be doing thistransitional thing now.
(08:56):
And she said to me, you knowwhat?
If anyone on this board has aproblem with that, then they
should resign because what youcontribute is most important.
It's not who you are, which Ifound that to be true.
It's oh, by the way, I happen tobe transgender.
So what?
I'm also a congressionallyrecognized historian.
(09:17):
I'm also still part of board oftrustees of a pretty prominent
museum in New York.
And so it's those kind of thingsthat have nothing to do with,
oh, by the way, and then youtell your story and then the
story helps others to gee, ifyou succeeded that way, then
maybe I can.
(09:37):
Take some of those bestpractices, some of that case
history that you're giving usand put that together with other
people and create my own pathforward.
So that's how I see it.
Meagan (09:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's actually really acomforting thing to hear in a
way, because a lot of, I knowtherapists at her time, and a
lot of our clients are coming tous in sessions saying, I'm so
upset about what I'm seeinghappen in the world right now.
And I'm just drowning in it.
I don't know what my form ofadvocacy could be because
there's just too many thingsthat I could and I feel like I
(10:11):
should be doing.
And we try to.
Look at it from the lens of wecan't all be doing everything
all the time, and you have topick your form of advocacy and
to hear you, describe you werejust in it, you just lived your
authentic life.
I think it's what people areneeding to hear right now too,
is that they can just go forwardand live their life.
And they don't have tonecessarily be elected into a
(10:33):
position government or be on thestreets protesting every day.
You know that you can do thosethings if that's your form, but
it doesn't have to be thatThere's a lot of ways to be in
the advocacy space when thingsare happening that are
disruptive in, in the world.
Sydney (10:52):
Authenticity.
Just being your authentic selfis an act of resilience.
Angie (10:59):
Yeah, that's true.
That's very true.
And you know I don't postnegative stuff on my, any of
social media because people justget turned right off.
They don't want to hear that,and I don't blame them.
There's enough negativity outthere.
What I try to do is pick thegood stuff, the stuff that's
positive, elevate that, even arunning chronology in my own
(11:21):
life.
I have a 2-year-old grandson andit's a lot of fun when I get to
see him and, all that stuff.
It's celebrating the life youhave and the friends you have.
And the potential friends thatyou might have.
And the good things, there'salways gonna be bad things, so I
tend to shy away from that.
Meagan (11:40):
Yeah, that's such a good message to really lean into
celebrating the good parts oflife rather than letting those
bad parts capsize you.
I can see that optimism in you
Angie (11:49):
it's just the way I am.
And I know there's a lot I couldbe negative about, but I'm not
going to go that route becauseto me, happiness is
self-created.
Happiness is the fountain ofuse.
I just turned 70.
I don't really look 70.
And people don't perceive.
View me as 70.
(12:09):
They, I'm always a how old doyou think I am?
And don't answer the question,it's stuff like that.
I, you just have to, you'vegotta be positive, even if the
environment is negative and, andthat's the way you spread smiles
and happiness,
Meagan (12:26):
yeah.
Thank you for that perspective.
It's so needed to hear thatright now.
And you mentioned, in additionto this, one of your big forms
of advocacy is storytelling andbeing willing to share your
narrative with others as a wayto enhance and uplift them.
So I'm hoping we can maybe gokinda back to the beginning
because you have lived throughso many cultural chapters of
(12:47):
queer history and I'm wonderingif you can talk a little bit
about what shaped your earlysense of self and identity.
Angie (12:53):
Sure.
It go, goes way back with me.
I think it was around the age offour and a half, something like
that.
I came to the re realizationthat I was different because I
didn't like to do the thingsthat little boys did.
I didn't like to get dirty and Ididn't like to play in the mud
(13:15):
and trucks and stuff.
Even though I did it, it wasn'tenjoyable.
But what I used to do, this iscrazy, but growing up in
Brooklyn in a two family house,my grandparents were downstairs
and they didn't go anywhere.
They were retired.
And so my mom would go to thestore and, just tell him, oh,
he's upstairs, whatever.
And then, I would go into mymother's closet.
(13:37):
She was little and so was I.
My mother was five foot, fivefoot whatever, a hundred pounds.
And I would put on her dress orher shoes and look at my, she
had this full length mirror onthe back of the closet door, and
I would wear the stuff and I'mlike, and it made me feel really
good.
And, there's no fetish, there'sno fantasy, there's no hormones,
(14:01):
there's nothing going.
It's just your brain is tellingyou, you feel good in this with
this, exterior.
And that was the beginning ofmany years of feeling that and
understanding more.
'cause in that was, I was for itin 1959.
(14:22):
The word trans didn't evenexist.
We did, but it didn't exist.
I.
And, there were a few examplesof people who did a sex change,
but it was mostly, looked downupon and made fun of.
And, and I also know that if Iever told my father who was a
World War II, army combatveteran that, dad, I think I'm a
(14:42):
girl, he would've we need to getyou a doctor.
So I never did.
I just kept it inside, thinkingI was weird and I went through
so many years of that, but itgets stronger and stronger.
As a teenager, Halloween was myfavorite day because I could be
Dolly Parton iteration of DollyParton.
And it, it sounds weird and itsounds crazy, but the way I look
(15:06):
at this stuff now is that I havea female brain.
I may not have all the bodyparts but the brain is, encased
in your body.
And if you detach your spiritfrom the body, which hopefully
happens when you're dead there'sno body part to connect with.
(15:28):
It's simply, who you think youare.
And I think about that a lottoo.
What defines a female?
Some would say yeah, you need tohave, you need to be able to
bear a child.
What happens after menopause?
Do you stop being a female?
What happens if you're bornsterile?
Are you not a female?
And then what about intersexpeople who have pieces and parts
(15:51):
of both organs who may have XXchromosomes and certain organs
and x, y, and another set oforgans.
What about them?
One in 1600 births was the laststatistic I saw.
That's a lot of people, and sothe notion that we just have
male and female is not reallycorrect.
(16:13):
We have binary, male, female,but we have our brains telling
us who we are.
Forget the body.
Our brains are telling ussomething different.
And mine kept telling me, youare not what you appear to be.
And and I'm not crazy.
I don't have a mental disorderas some would say, I'm simply
me.
(16:33):
And then I use another statisticwhere there's 8 billion people
on this planet and no two peopleare the same.
There'll never be another you.
There was never another you.
That's an, an incredible miraclewhen you think about it.
And so who's to say that I'm notwho I think I am.
(16:54):
It's like you are your ownperson, and I'm my own person.
I see it in some children too.
People say, oh, you'reindoctrinating kids.
Baloney.
The kids know who they are.
I knew who I was.
I just couldn't express it,'cause there were no books to
take out of a library.
There was no internet.
There were no role models.
There was nothing.
So I just thought it was weird,what do you do?
(17:15):
So as you go through life, thisis, this was the challenge that
I had.
And I did the things that,typically you would do.
I went to college, I did getmarried, couldn't have children,
had biological children adoptedtwo children who are now adults
and are, dearest kids of mine.
And so life cha, takes youthrough its own pathway.
(17:41):
You do the best you can witheach pathway.
And that leads you to anotherchapter and another chapter.
So I'm in this, later chapter,but you look back on it all and
you say, yeah I would I havechanged anything?
No, because I wouldn't be who Iwas today if I had to change
something.
'cause you change one dial,something else happens.
(18:02):
There's a realization of who youare as a person.
And I, it's difficult for peoplewho don't live this to wrap
their heads around it.
'cause they kept, I keep readingabout mental disorders and all
that stuff.
No, it's not.
It is who my brain and 2 millionother brains out there saying
(18:24):
who you are.
And so that, that's my messageto go through all the stages in
life, but be who you are.
That is the message.
Don't fight it.
Be who you are because, and theother thing is so important that
if you, which I did for manyyears, repress who I was and
(18:47):
worrying about who's gonna findout that I'm really this or that
you're not living to your fullpotential'cause you're spending
too much time worrying aboutother people.
Forget the other people.
Just be yourself and it makes,it will make such a difference
in your life.
The rock was lifted when Ifinally said, I'm done.
(19:07):
I'm going to be me.
And then, you make whateveradjustments you want.
Some people don't.
I did.
But they're minor, minor in thesense of, you can't change a
body.
You can change some aspects ofbiology, but your brain stays
your spirit.
Your soul is who you are.
And that doesn't change.
You can't fix that.
You can't change it, you can'tmodify it.
(19:30):
You can learn, but you'll alwaysbe who you are.
Meagan (19:34):
This shared so many powerful things there.
And I think one thing I wannahighlight and echo here is this,
we see a lot of debate in a lotof argument about gender and
gender identity versus sexualityand looking at the biology of it
versus the, societal, languageof the gender spectrum.
But I think you're taking thisto a higher level by really
(19:54):
separating it from the bodyentirely, because there's a lot
of arguments, scientificallythat there is not just the
gender binary, but the way thatyou're speaking of this as at a
soul level of, you live with youall of the time, your soul
potentially transcends, evenafter, our physical body has
gone.
And it's that deep level ofawareness that you're speaking
(20:16):
to here in terms of gender andreally knowing yourself.
Angie (20:19):
it's really a powerful thing.
And it only comes after youthink about it a lot.
I also teach groups and,companies who are trying to be
more accepting of differentpeople.
And I think one of the things isthat whole lgbtqia a plus.
Acronym, they call it theletters to, those who wanna like
(20:40):
degrade stuff.
Like how many more letters yougot?
The reality is, we have 8billion people worth of letters.
The key here is that when youbreak that acronym down, it
really comes down to two things.
It's who we are and who we love.
That's it.
It's so elementary.
The who we are.
(21:01):
Okay.
Then the who we love.
It's so easy.
That's so powerful.
It's so easy.
And yeah.
And yes it, there's a hugepyramid of that, and all kinds
of buckets, which I hate.
It's a continuum.
I don't care what anybody says.
It is a total continuum ofeverything.
(21:23):
But that's humanity.
Meagan (21:25):
I think a lot of people who maybe don't have anyone in
the L-G-B-T-Q community in theirlives that they know personally,
they don't have the opportunityto really talk with and interact
with anyone in that community.
So they, get lost in the lettersoup as you.
Called it, and it's just veryforeign.
And foreign is sometimes scary.
I'm curious in your own identitytoo, in the development over
(21:48):
your childhood.
You mentioned growing up, notreally having even the language
to internally process this, letalone the ability to talk about
it with others.
As more language was developedaround this, even the words
transgender how did that helpempower you or, I guess push
forward your identity?
Angie (22:10):
the word, if you go back to history, the word transgender
didn't really appear until thelate 1960s and I was already,
older at the time.
It was expressed at the time asthe drag queens.
Even the word drag queen is awhole continuum of people.
There are men who just enjoytheatrics.
(22:30):
There are gay people who enjoy,theatrics, which are mostly men,
but some women like the termgay.
And so you had this wholespectrum of women performing and
that was actually one of thethings that started that was
Theit mission point forStonewall the uprising.
(22:50):
Because in New York City at thetime, and I think it was New
York State as well, if you woremore than three articles of
clothing of the opposite sexfrom your id, you could be
arrested.
And a lot of people were, andthat's why Stonewall happened.
(23:11):
Because they kept arresting thedrag queens.
up until 1966, if you were anopenly gay person and the
bartender in a bar knew you theylegally could not serve you a
drink.
That was the law.
So you sit there with all theserepressive things going on, and
the idea that the police at thetime would actually try to draw
(23:36):
out some, a gay person to arrestthem in a bar, in know it was a
horrible time.
A lot of violence, so again, youhave to live through the period
to see it, to understand it.
And then, I literally, I hungout on Christopher Street.
I loved Christopher Street atthe time.
It was so cool.
And it was June, it was summerthat the school was out.
(23:59):
And I used to hang around with afew friends, and we literally,
it was late, really late atnight, and we were just walking
along and we stumbled on it.
You didn't get an invitation toa riot, these are the things
that, I go back to becausethey're so important.
So the whole notion of genderand all of that it's a sense of
self.
I knew I was not a little boy.
(24:21):
I didn't understand why, whichis why I was expressing who I
was putting on my mom's clothes.
And, it wasn't a fetish, youcan't have a fetish at 5 0 6.
You just do because it makes youfeel good.
So as you move through it inlife that thing gets stronger
and stronger.
And then, to the point where I.
(24:43):
I, again, a long litany of, whenI would travel for business, I
had two suitcases, one littleone.
The dude and a giant one,because God forbid, we didn't
know what we're gonna wear.
We don't know where our mood is,and shoes and dress and, way it
works.
It was hysterical.
And I used to say to people, ohyeah I'm I'm heading out to the
West Coast because I'm gonnadonate my clothing to some
(25:06):
organization.
No, it was both for me.
You do all you have to do, butI, I just, I just encourage
people to, just be who you are.
Don't hide it.
Don't, because the more you hideit the less productive you are
and the unh that you are.
(25:27):
And the minute you tell peopleyou, you come out to people, if
that's the right word.
I gave a speech, the first oneactually.
They had asked me to tell mystory.
It was to the four A, theAmerican Association of
Advertising Agencies.
They had a yearly luncheon fortheir multicultural program.
It was like 600 people in theirroom, it was a in person live
(25:49):
thing.
I think it was 2014 or 15.
And they contacted me and theysaid, could you tell your story?
You're gonna be ourinspirational speaker.
I'm like, what are you talkingabout?
Like, why am I inspirational?
Your story's really amazing.
It is.
I'm, I was like taken aback,like I didn't think that.
(26:09):
At the end, my message was, it'snever too late to be the real
you.
And I was, I said, I just turned60 at the time and I'm still in
the advertising business, whichis really a young people's
business.
And and another, a month later,this young guy appearing person
came to me and he's, you werethe speaker, weren't you?
I said, yeah.
(26:30):
He said, you, you inspired me tocome out to my friends and
family, because you said it'snever too late.
And yeah, 20 something year old.
And so I said, so what, how wastheir reaction?
They all said they already knew.
(26:51):
That he was gay.
I'm like, okay.
So what that means to me isthat, the message resonates.
It, it inspires people to justbe themselves.
And, this was a long time agoand I gotta believe that person
is a happy, happier today thanever before.
And a number of others, samekind of thing, happened at
(27:11):
different stages in my life.
So yeah, be out there, tell yourstory, do the right thing.
If you don't wanna listen to it,don't listen.
Sydney (27:20):
Have you always had this confident sense of your
authentic self?
And was that challenging foryou?
What was that process like ofgaining that knowledge and
understanding and love foryourself it sounds so that you
were able to spread thatmessage.
Angie (27:35):
you hit the key word there.
Confidence.
It takes a lot to get theconfidence.
We don't, it's not an instantconfident.
'cause I remember just the firsttime stepping out of a hotel
room in San Francisco when Imade the decision, I'm gonna
live me, I'm going to be me.
(27:56):
I was scared to death.
I was gonna walk a few blocks,with a cute dress and heels to a
bar that I knew was friendly topeople like me.
And I literally, theneighborhood was, eh, it's the
Tenderloin in San Francisco.
If San Francisco.
It's a little diceyneighborhood, but cool.
(28:18):
It just, it was a transgenderepicenter, if you will.
And I used to stay there when Iwas seeing my client, and they
always used to say, why are youstaying at this cheap flea bagg
hotel?
We put you up in a nice place.
No, I wanna be here.
I wanna be with my people.
Anyway, the confidence it takesto walk outta that hotel room
for the first bunch of times, Iliterally, I had an old flip
(28:39):
phone, so I was pretending totalk to somebody as I'm walking,
so I wouldn't have to hear.
The, Hey baby, how this, the da.
And I know I didn't look thatgood in the beginning, but the
idea of confidence is criticaland the only way you do it is to
actually do it.
Walk the walk, get out there, doit.
And over time, I wascomfortable.
(29:01):
It's okay, I can do this.
It's working for me.
And then you build up theconfidence to start telling
people, and you get rejected bysome.
Yeah, I remember telling areally good friend and the
person said, I can't have afriend like you.
And I'm like, what do you meanI'm the same person?
(29:23):
No.
What would they say to me?
I'm like, who cares about you?
It's about me.
It was, no, I can't have afriend like you.
And that was it.
Okay, fine.
I tried a few times, give up.
At the end of the day, you'regonna lose some, but you gain a
lot more.
And that was another piece ofconfidence.
'cause I was confident enough tosay, all right, this is who I
(29:45):
am.
If you don't like me, bye.
If you do like me, we can befriends or acquaintances or
just, business, whatever.
So I look at those kind ofthings and say, you need to
develop confidence.
It takes a while.
It really does take time.
However.
Once you get there, there's noturning back because you've
(30:07):
already gotten past it.
You're unstoppable.
That's it.
And yeah, no journey is evercomplete without somebody
assaulting you, at least in thetrans universe.
At one point some guy hit meover the head with a beer
bottle, didn't like the way Ilooked, and I wound up in the ER
overnight, which was not goodwith staples in my head, because
(30:29):
they didn't like me.
Didn't like, whatever, so it'sgonna happen.
I was hoping it didn't, but italso woke me up that I'm not
immortal.
However lots of friends rushedto my side.
And that was a good thing.
So you never, without people whoare supporters, and, I also say
to people if you can do onething, if you're not part of
(30:50):
this community and it's fine,just be an ally, but be an
active ally, not just support.
Oh yeah, I support you.
And then you'll do anything.
Be a person who will literallystand up and say, Hey, don't do
that.
Hey, I support you and here'swhat I'm doing to support you.
It makes a big difference,especially I.
(31:10):
To all the members of, all theletters of the L-G-B-T-Q
community.
'cause it's a, it is a communityand it's under siege and we know
that as it's always been it willget worse before it gets better.
But we'll get there, as Imentioned with Generation Z,
they're gonna, they're gonnabring us forward, confidence.
(31:31):
You hit it right on the head.
Confidence.
Sydney (31:35):
Do you perhaps remember a turning point where you
decided, or you found thatconfidence within yourself?
Angie (31:43):
Yeah, actually I did.
And it has to do with stories.
I had a client in San Franciscothat I used to go to quite
frequently, and they were veryfamily oriented companies, so
nobody really wanted to go outto dinner or whatever, which was
fine.
And so I searched every city Itraveled to.
Where's the trends bar?
Where's the place where I canhear stories, not pick people
(32:06):
up?
I had no interest in that, butit's I wanna hear your story.
And I found this bar, it's nolonger there, but it was called
Divas in San Francisco.
I still have probably 200friends from there.
And we're talking many yearsago, and I would just talk to
the girls.
I'm like, tell me your story.
What's your frame?
Why do you feel this way?
(32:26):
And yes, I came to therealization one night in a hotel
room there that, all thesestories that I've been listening
to, they're my story.
It's just a different framework.
It's my same story.
You know about internal, likeyour spirit, your soul,
everything's driving youforward.
You don't do this because you'resome kind of nutcase.
(32:48):
You do it because you're drivento do it.
'cause your brain is telling youwhat to do.
And that was the turning point.
One night in the hotel I was upat four in the morning.
I broke into a deep sweat, sweatand I went into the bathroom and
I looked at myself and I said,their story, my story, it's the
story.
So now you're a strategicplanner, what are you gonna do
(33:10):
about it?
So I did what any strategicplanner would do.
I did a timeline and I said,okay, what do I need to do
first?
First of all, get rid of themustache.
'cause that really doesn't lookvery feminine, and so then it's
okay, most women have, not all,one of the signs of it my, in my
(33:31):
head.
Coming from that Dolly PartonHalloween thing I always did was
the idea that deflecting from aface to a body, right?
Because the first thing is thebody.
You don't know who they are.
And particularly men will lookat, like that first, right?
(33:52):
And so they're not looking atyour face, they're not even
listening to your voice, but,okay check box, right?
Okay.
And again, you do what you feelis right.
Some people don't wanna doanything, and that's fine.
So I did, the check checkbox.
Then I'm like, my voice was toodeep.
It still is a little on thedeeper side, but I'm old, so
there was a college nearby mercyNow University they have a
(34:16):
speech and hearing department,and they offered a course for
trans people to understand voiceand how to modify it.
Can't totally change it, but youcan modify it.
And of course, I made friendswith all the professors.
A lot of them are still there.
And e every once in a while Isubstitute for their classes
too, which is sweet.
(34:36):
But the idea was, okay, what canI do with this voice to project
a, image, more aligned with whoI am.
And so I spent two yearspart-time like going to
different classes andunderstanding the how.
You can change, you can modify,and they have very sensitive
equipment.
(34:56):
So the first day I was therethey did this analysis of your
voice, and then two years laterfinally, I said, okay, I think
we're done as much as I can do.
And the numbers were absolutelyincredible.
Totally changed.
I went from I don't know Bronsonand Death wish to, to this
softer, but now ancient voice.
(35:17):
So it you can do certain thingsto get more confidence, in, in
whichever way you need to go.
But those are the things youseek out.
It's okay, how can I check thisbox off?
You do this timeline thing andit finally got to the point okay
I'm telling everybody, I, in mypersonal life now it's the
business life.
Now I have to do that part.
And I was very concerned becausemy biggest client was in North
(35:41):
Carolina.
At the time, the home of thebathroom bills, not that
everyone else doesn't have onenow, but the idea that I didn't
know how they would react.
It turns out the reaction wasamazingly great.
They even threw me a party,which was sweet.
And the people in the airportthat I was there every week,
(36:02):
they're like, Hey, you'relooking good.
So the idea that you thinkyou're gonna have a problem in
many cases you don't.
The last piece is the, I waitedso long to tell my mother,'cause
my mother, I just, I didn'twanna, I didn't know how she'd
react.
So I told her when she was 90and I was 60.
(36:25):
And, it was one of thosesituations where we were at a
wedding.
My nephew's wedding.
And I didn't have everyone knewexcept she and I didn't have any
email clothes left.
'cause I only kept one suit forgiggles, in the closet, which of
course didn't fit.
And I said, I gotta do, I, so Itook three, little black dresses
(36:46):
and I, heels and whatever.
And I said, I gotta tell herbecause I can't not do this.
I have to do it so I went intoher room and we were gonna have
lunch.
And I said, so how do I look ma?
And she said, you look great,but you gotta cut your hair
'cause you look like a girl.
And I'm like, ah, hold thatthought.
(37:07):
So then I went through thisexplanation and she goes, she's
like listening.
And she goes, okay.
I'm like, what do you mean okay?
I thought you'd have a heartattack.
She goes no.
Don't you understand.
Are you happy?
I'm like, yeah.
So she's you have to understandthe goal of a parent is to make
sure their child is happy.
(37:29):
Don't matter how old you are.
So you're happy.
I'm happy now.
I'm hungry.
Let's go to lunch.
And that was the wholeconversation.
Except the one thing she broughtup at lunch.
She goes, I named you a malename.
And she goes, that doesn't workfor me.
What do you want me to call you?
Hence I said, Angelique becauseof angels.
(37:50):
And I believe in'em.
And I put them to a lot of workwith the years, the lesson
learned from that was the peopleyou fear the most sometimes turn
out to be your greatest alliesbecause you just, you are,
you're predetermining what youthink they're gonna react, but
they don't react that way.
(38:12):
And then sometimes your bestfriends turn out to be, not, so
life is a strange thing.
Meagan (38:19):
I have worked with a handful of clients who are in
their, gender identity kind ofexploration.
Some of them are younger andthey're able to pinpoint, as you
said, you wrote out a timelineof, okay, I'm feeling this
confidence, I'm feeling thisneed to take action and really
become my authentic self fully.
And I see the 0.1, two, threeall the way through and they've
(38:42):
been able to plan this all out,but are unable to even take the
first step because they'reparalyzed by this fear that I.
They're gonna be attackedbecause they see so much
violence on the news and onsocial media.
And that is a reality.
And I'm wondering you're sayinghere that sometimes, the people
that you're most afraid of areactually gonna have a really
wonderful, supportive responseand sometimes not.
(39:04):
But, I'm curious if you haveanything to add to those people
that are just paralyzed in thatspace of fear and unable to take
that first step.
Angie (39:13):
baby steps.
Baby steps.
You don't die the water when,it's just unfroze, this
literally took me years to fig,to slowly move forward.
It took me two years to find aplastic surgeon to do these just
because I wanted the rightperson.
And I wanted to make sure,because plastic surgery is an
(39:33):
art.
And you're, you have to be init.
And I found the most incredibleplastic surgeon, and I did him
three times.
Big, bigger, biggest, and heretired.
I dunno if it had to do with me,but but again, it's increments.
With me, I had nobody to follow.
I didn't know what I was doing,but I knew if I, these were the
(39:56):
steps I wanted to do, slowly.
If you take the little babysteps to the point you are
ready, and then don't do it in abig, splashy way, just
increments, find a safe spacelike I did in San Francisco.
No one knew me.
So I wasn't worried about that.
And you're in a neighborhoodwhere so eclectic, it didn't
(40:18):
matter, and so those are thekind of things that you can try
to make the space as safe aspossible.
And then if you have a problem,you run into a store and you
call for assistance, you call,police or whatever.
I have to say, even when I wasassaulted that night the bar
owner knew me and so did thebouncers in a good way.
(40:41):
And they did get, the guyultimately nothing really much
happened.
But the point was the twopolicemen didn't know me and
they asked me, how are you okay?
Blah, blah, blah, the usualstuff, and we're gonna call an
ambulance.
Which hospital?
Yeah.
Okay, fine.
And can we just see your ID sowe can make a record of it?
And then they saw my ID, and thefirst thing they said was how
(41:02):
may we address you?
Because CID certainly didn'tmatch this, and I didn't look
anywhere near where I look todayand talk about respect.
And so yeah, Yonkers PoliceDepartment was ahead of their
time and they still are.
But still, the point is that,you just do baby steps and then
(41:25):
confidence takes time.
It really does.
And you'll make a few mistakestoo.
Pull back, try something else,look at everyone else's stories.
And there's lots of them outthere.
If my story doesn't work foryou, there's probably a hundred,
200, a thousand more.
That could be, and it doesn'thave to be for this, it could be
(41:47):
people who've overcome ahandicap, people who have gone,
done something that they havesucceeded in.
And maybe it's, it's notnecessarily gender, things you
can do to change things.
It is a process.
And the process isn't always thesame, but the end goal is the
same.
(42:08):
Be yourself.
And you'll be.
You'll be much happier.
That's the whole point.
And I'm happy, which is reasonwhy I don't think I look my age.
Then share your story becausesomeone else may be looking to
figure out where to go, how togo next.
As you say, your clients are,not sure they're uncomfortable,
they're scared.
That first big plunge, don'ttake a plunge.
(42:30):
Take a little splash.
And itty bitty on, itty bitty.
And you get there.
Meagan (42:37):
Yeah.
That's such good advice.
'cause even small action stepstowards this ultimate goal.
It's taking action for yourselfon a consistent basis.
It's not keeping everythingstuck and stagnant.
Angie (42:48):
Yeah.
The idea that you're movingforward, you're learning as you
go.
And you need to test and learn.
Try something doesn't work.
Try something else.
And eventually you're stillmoving forward.
Maybe a step backward here andthere, but you're still moving
forward.
And so that's my advice.
Slow, steady, slow, take abreak, breathe.
(43:12):
If you're uncomfortable.
I've seen some peopledetransition, which I can't even
imagine that, but because offear.
And fear, it's like either I'mgonna get killed or I better
just revert back to what I was,but I'll be totally unhappy and
miserable.
That's not the way to do it.
Move, go somewhere else.
(43:34):
Change your environment.
Change wherever you live, howyou live.
And I'll always say too, likethe workplace can be a
lifesaver.
The companies who are acceptingof talented employees who might
be different may offer the onesafe space that a person might
(43:56):
have.
So if your company's notsupporting, find another one.
There's always something you cando.
As opposed to, yes, I have hadsome friends take their lives
because the world hated them,they could not deal with it.
And they were not like me, whereI would give'em the finger.
(44:17):
People are fragile, some people,and I understand.
Because sometimes you can'tclimb out of that box and you
don't see a recourse.
And, that's one another reasonwhy I like to tell my own story.
It's like there's always a wayto move forward.
Just don't fall into that trapthat you're worthless.
'cause every human is incrediblyuseful in this world and has a
(44:38):
purpose.
Meagan (44:39):
Absolutely.
The world is so much better offthe more people that are living
their authentic lives inwhatever way they can.
Angie (44:46):
I think about humanity as one giant puzzle with billions,
a billion, 8 billion littlepuzzle pieces.
So the minute one drops out,there's a hole.
And that hole can't be reallyreplaced.
Especially if it's dropping outfor cause as opposed to
naturally, every life isimportant, and every life is
(45:08):
valuable and you're here for areason.
Meagan (45:12):
I find it really interesting that you point at
work as being a lifelinepotentially as well.
I think a unique part of yourstory is that you transition in
this high level leadershipposition within a company.
And it sounds like by and large,you had a lot of support within
your company and, positiveinteractions throughout that
process.
But I'm curious if you can talka little bit more about that and
(45:34):
if there were any, challenges orstumbling blocks you had to
navigate and how you did that tofind that job that felt like a
safe place.
Angie (45:41):
Here's the thing.
The company had differentbusiness resource groups one
focused on L-G-B-T-Q Women'sGroup Asian group, et cetera.
Again I was looking to see how Icould move forward.
And at one point the LGBT Qgroup had a void.
There was no leader.
(46:02):
Both of'em had left and went toother companies.
So it, there was zero.
And I had been friends with thesenior diversity and inclusion
vice president for a while, andI called, or I emailed, I
forget, and I said, I'd like toconsider, I'd like to be
(46:22):
considered to take over thegroup.
And she wrote back to me.
She goes.
What, wait, what?
So she took me to lunch and Iwas talking about it, talked
about who I was, and I said,you, you see this shirt that's
got a couple of lumps in it.
And so I took over and I wrotethat position to, four or five
(46:46):
years.
And we did a lot of great stuff.
I even did the first trans panelthey ever did with friends young
and older and I didn't realizemy two younger friends had never
told their stories and they werein tears, people in the
audience.
It was a live audience of, Idon't know, 60, 70 people, maybe
(47:06):
more.
And there was not a dry eyeanywhere.
And yes, I had stumbling blockstoo.
Not many, but not enough to stopme because once they took over
that group, I was at corporate.
This is not just one company.
(47:26):
This is a corporate thing.
And then I finally like, okay,now I have the backing of the
corporation, and that empoweredme to move forward.
You look for these littlediamonds and what can I grab
onto to make this work?
And that helped me in the wholetransitional thing too.
(47:46):
Even my own company, I wassenior, I had a fairly big group
of people that were focused ondifferent accounts and I was the
account management lead and weused to have these Monday
morning status meetings, sothere'd be like, 25 people in
the room and we're going throughit.
And then I said I wanna tell yousomething about me again.
I'm gonna be doing this, andblah, blah, blah.
And I got a round of applause,which was sweet.
(48:08):
And then I said if anyone has anissue, talk to your manager,
which was me.
And so little fun things.
But a couple weeks later, mycreative partner came into me
and probably had the greatestwisdom I've ever encountered.
And he said to me, you've beendealing with this transition
thought for years, for decades,but it's all new to us.
(48:32):
And, the team is just, they justdon't quite understand.
They don't know they're tryingto figure it out.
So understand that we'retransitioning with you.
Which was a powerful thoughtbecause most people, they only
think of themselves, which I waslike, I'm transitioning, so
what?
So is everyone around me?
(48:52):
And once you come to thatrealization, it's wow, yes, of
course.
Breathe.
Give them breathing room.
If they have questions, ask thequestions.
And so those are the things thatare really, insightful sometimes
but yeah, it was not an easything.
And some of the times when Igive my talks to different
companies, usually they call onthe supplier that, that uses me.
(49:17):
And usually what it is they havesomeone transitioning and
they've never experienced it orthey want to make sure it's done
properly.
So they'll get me to talk aboutthe subject.
That then creates theenvironment to make it easier
for that person.
And I usually wind up later onbeing contacted by the person.
'Cause it helped, you go throughthat litany and then it really
(49:40):
does change the perspectivemoving forward.
Home life may be toxic, anythingoutside the office might be
toxic.
But when you're in the office,if you're respected and your
coworkers, respect and embraceyou, it's great.
You don't have to think about ittoo much.
And hiding isn't a good optionbecause you're thinking about
that all the time.
Once it's done, it's like therock is off your back,
Meagan (50:03):
yeah.
It's freeing.
Thank you for sharing that.
That's so powerful to hear yourexperience and also the ways
that you've now given back andhelped other companies to do
better in this space.
Because, it's hard enough forwomen to climb the corporate
ladder and be in thesepositions, let alone trans women
going through this experiencewho need that much more
understanding and support.
I'm really inspired by how muchyou've persevered through the
(50:26):
stumbling blocks as well as.
Being able to use yourconfidence and the backing that
you have been able to amass tosupport others in this
community.
Sydney (50:34):
I was curious just based on what you said what do you
think some of the biggestmisconceptions are about the
Transfeminine experiencespecifically?
Angie (50:45):
I'll talk trans in general because see I tend to be
like I'm a woman, period.
The brain tells me who I am.
Forget about what the body saysthe brain tells me.
I don't need an adjective.
I don't need a modifier.
I'm just a woman who is outthere trying to be myself.
The misconceptions are lots ofstuff like.
(51:07):
Oh, it's just an act.
Oh, it's just a phase.
Oh, they're grooming people andall that crap.
Listen, I don't groom nobody.
What I really would encouragesome of these political folks
who seem to have that thing, whoprobably never met one of us,
talk to us.
(51:27):
Because you're gonna learnsomething that may change your
life.
And I've noticed that sometimessomeone in their family comes
out and all of a sudden there'san understanding.
But in lieu of that, talk to oneof us.
We're out there.
I have no problem talking tosomebody, and trying to convey
(51:49):
what it's like, and how youfeel.
There are people who are membersof the clergy who, keep saying
It's only male, only femalemarriage is this marriage
between men and women.
Great.
But there can be love, love isthe common denominator of all
religions and all traditions.
If there's no love, it's not anyof those.
(52:11):
It's not a religion.
It's simply not.
Overarching all is just love,love yourself, love everyone
around you.
If you can't love them, thenaccept them.
Simple.
It's really simple stuff justtalk to the people.
These people who like, oh,you're mentally ill and you're
(52:31):
this and that.
No, we're not mentally ill.
We know who we are, probablymore than you do.
And just because, if you wannadeflect on the issues of the
time to, throw a marginalizedgroup under the bus, whether
it's trans people or whoeverelse, or immigrants gimme a
break that's deflecting from,reality and deflecting from some
(52:52):
other bad thing that you'retrying to do, so yeah, talk,
we'll talk.
I believe me, I have no problemtalking to anybody.
I have nothing to lose by doingit because if I can even put a
little shred of understanding orat least acceptance, it can make
(53:13):
a big difference.
I'm not gonna change the worldbut we can change one person at
a time,
Meagan (53:19):
Thank you for your work and for all that you've shared
with us today.
Anything that you haven'talready shared with us that you
wanna speak to.
I wanna give an opportunity forthat and hopefully you can leave
us with some advice astherapists, as allies what can
we do to help and to put moregood out into the world and to
support this community?
Angie (53:38):
I think pearls of wisdom, at the end of the day, don't
listen to the naysayers.
Don't take it all to heart.
I read so much of the crap thatI, that, mental illness and all
that garbage no, it's not justbecause you can't understand it,
which I understand, it'sdifficult to understand, but you
can accept that people aredifferent, so there's a
(54:01):
difference between understandingand acceptance.
And I do think that, too manypeople are just hung up on, this
whole notion of biology and thisand that and, it's the same old
story over and over again, butdon't be disappointed there's
always gonna be people in theworld who are gonna, feel that
(54:23):
somehow putting you down, buildsthem up, which is ridiculous.
And then look at history.
Everyone has a differentadvocacy.
Mine is just being out there anddoing good.
I don't do the sign holding andflagwaving and all that stuff,
although I do like to walk inthe pride parade.
It's never too late to be thereal you as long as you're
(54:43):
living and breathing.
I've seen enough people in myfamily and other friends on the
deathbed and dying and die infront of me.
And I didn't wanna be thatperson, never having lived who I
was, so sometimes that helps inthe thought process.
What if you got hit by a bustomorrow?
A lot of what ifs, but if younever have lived, that would be
(55:06):
a greater tragedy then not.
At least trying, so life isfragile.
Life is is short.
And the older we get, now thatI've hit the seven dead digit, I
realize that, and so it's evenmore important that we just
(55:29):
focus sometimes because whenwe're happy we can make other
people happy.
It's hard not to.
And then the last thing is, thegreatest gift you can give, I
love this expression, is yourtime because you'll never get it
back.
Lots of cliche type things, butit's the truth, and that's why
(55:51):
I.
Do things like this.
'cause I feel that it'simportant, that giving time to
use my words or, thoughts or Iwon't call it advice, I'll just
call it, best practice for me.
I think, can be beneficial topeople.
Again, listen to their stories,connect them with other stories,
(56:15):
connect them with resources.
I had none when I was four.
There was nothing.
Zero, no books, no mentors, noout people, no nothing.
But the world's changed andthat's why I think lots of Gen Z
and, gen X is understanding orare understanding more about
(56:36):
themselves because there'sinformation, it's all over the
place.
Some accurate, some not, you candistill what is clearly not, so
Meagan (56:44):
I think your story I'm sure you've seen it already, has
changed a lot of lives and Ithink it'll continue to.
I actually love what you saidabout time,'cause we can't get
it back.
So it is one of the greatestgifts and it's part of why I
named the practice her timetherapy because I recognize how
valuable especially women's timereally is with so much of the
world trying to steal it awayand take it for other things.
(57:05):
So I wanna thank you again forspending this time with us and
It was an absolute honorspeaking with you today and
getting to know you more.
Angie (57:13):
Likewise.
Thank you very much.
Sydney (57:15):
Thank you.
If you're feeling empowered bytoday's episode, be sure to
subscribe and leave us a review.
You can also follow us on socialmedia at her time to talk for
more updates and tips.
And if you'd like to support theshow, consider becoming a
patron.
If you're ready to take the nextstep in your mental health
journey, visit her timetherapy.com and schedule a free
(57:37):
consultation with one of ourtherapists.
Thank you for taking the time totalk today.
Remember, your story matters.
Your voice is powerful, and yourmental health is worth
prioritizing.
Until next time, take care ofyourself.
This is your time.
The information shared on thispodcast is not intended to be
personal mental health advice,and listening to this podcast
(58:00):
does not create a therapeuticrelationship between the
listener and the therapistfeatured on this podcast.
We encourage listeners to engagewith a licensed therapist for
personalized mental healthtreatment and advice.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.